In the eleventh episode of the fourth season of Battlestar Galactica, this is just too much. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to watch Battlestar Galactica.
My primary concern at the end of “Revelations,” besides my own personal well-being over the fact that I was allowing a television show to become a life ruiner, was pretty simple: HOW THE FUCK CAN THE SHOW GO PAST THIS POINT? As brilliant and haunting as the end of the mid-season finale was, I started to have deep, distracting worries about how the show was going to take such a huge reveal and then move beyond it. True, there were still unanswered questions: Who was the final Cylon? Why was it Starbuck’s destiny to find Earth? What happened to her when she “died”? Where the fuck is everyone going to go? Still, the main narrative thrust was gone. This show has been about the quest for earth since the end of the miniseries, and now they’ve found it. And it’s an irradiated wasteland.
The cold open of “Sometimes A Great Notion” picks up from the very end of “Revelations” to drop us into this discovery as we see the humans and Cylons attempt to cope with the reality of what’s just happened. The whole planet has been destroyed in a nuclear blast, not just the beach where they stand on. As the details begin to flow in, the writers give us, over the course of 46 minutes, one of the bleakest, most depression episodes of television I’ve ever seen. Ever. It is incredibly difficult to watch, and I spent most of the time with my hands constantly flying up in the air in disbelief or fighting back tears. Understandably so, the characters take this discovery particularly hard, especially Laura Roslin, Adama, and Dualla, who are all so heartbroken and disturbed by Earth that they each fight back (and then give in to) a nervous breakdown.
I just…I knew that I was in for a horrible time after the scene where Roslin returns to Galactica. It’s beautifully acted by Mary McDonnell, but honestly…I couldn’t handle the awkward tension as she tries to find the words for the crew. What could you even say at a moment like that? What words could explain such a horrific revelation? How could you comfort that many people with news so arresting?
This was where my mind wandered to after this. I thought that this episode would solely focus on how various members of the fleet would cope with all of this. And “Sometimes A Great Notion” still largely addresses that, to be accurate, but I was shocked by how many new “answers” we’re given over the course of this story. More than anything else, they help give the remainder of season four a new focus and a new purpose. It’s clear that there’s a direction now, that there are still a whole lot of stories to tell on this show, and that this will never stop being fucked up.
Look, this is how it is:
THINGS I IMMEDIATELY NEED THE ANSWERS TO:
- How are there unfamiliar Centurion helmets on Earth?
- How the holy fuck is it at all possible that the Thirteen Tribe were made up of HUMANOID CYLONS? I mean…WHAT THE FUCK????
- NO SERIOUSLY HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE
- How is Starbuck’s Viper on Earth?
- DID YOU READ THAT QUESTION BECAUSE JESUS FUCKING CHRIST I NEED TO KNOW HOW THAT IS POSSIBLE.
- How is it possible that Galen Tyrol was on Earth 2,000 years ago when it was destroyed by nuclear blasts?
- Hell, why was Earth blown up in the first place?
- NO SERIOUSLY!!!! HOW WAS TYROL ON EARTH?
- EVERYONE I NEED TO KNOW HOW KARA THRACE’S BODY IS ON EARTH. HOW THE FUCK IS SHE THERE. HOW THE FUCK DOES SHE EXIST. Those aren’t even questions. They’re demands. I don’t think I have ever been so bewildered by a reveal in my whole life. THAT’S HER BODY. BUT SHE’S STANDING NEXT TO IT. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE.
- On a less serious note, I think it’s neat that it’s totally played to make you think that she’s the Final Cylon, which is ironic given the end scene. GOD I LOVE THIS SHOW.
- Okay, back to MORE QUESTIONS: Why did Leoben so fiercely believe in Kara’s “destiny”? Why is this suddenly not part of it?
- How the FUCK did Samuel Anders write “All Along The Watchtower”??????
- HOW CAN THE FINAL FIVE CYLONS HAVE LIVED ON EARTH 2,000 YEARS AGO?
- why would you bring back lucy flawless just to take her away from me in the saddest way possible. oh my god my heart.
- HOW THE FUCK OH MY GOD ELLEN TIGH IS THE FINAL CYLON did she even fucking know??? DID SHE KNOW SHE WAS ONE OR WAS HER DEATH A MISTAKE? If she died so long ago, WHY HAVEN’T WE SEEN HER YET???? Like….she would have had to have downloaded after her death on New Caprica, which means someone must have been there when she woke up on a Cylon ship. soooooooo I KNOW THIS IS LIKE 40 QUESTIONS IN ONE. But I don’t care. Also: It’s kind of sweet that Ellen’s the last Cylon? Now Tigh won’t be so lonely OH GOD WHEN CAN THEY REUNITE.
- Okay, I have watched this a few times but WAS THAT THE STATUE OF LIBERTY BEHIND TIGH BEFORE HE FOUND ELLEN? what the holy fuck is this show doing to me.
There are some things that don’t belong in lists, though, and as exciting as all these new revelations were, it’s really only that final reveal that gives any sort of hope for the future. As the story twists between Lee, Adama, Roslin, and Dualla, we see how the discovery of Earth has brought people to their limits, and “Sometimes A Great Notion” represents what happens after this. In the case of Laura Roslin, she’s lost her sense of purpose. The guilt she feels after believing so many visions, leading the survivors of the colonies to a vast nothingness, is too much for her to handle. Cancer never even made her this vulnerable, and she completely shuts down. It’s painful to watch because…well, it’s not like she could have known that this would happen. Still, it’s a guilt that consumes her because it takes away the end goal of what she was doing. She was supposed to be the dying leader who led the way to Earth, and she’s done that, and it was a failure. It’s why she rejects her doloxan treatment and the touch of Adama. She wants to give up.
oh god why is everything so awful.
No, I’m just kidding, things aren’t awful yet! They’re not! In hindsight, there were a lot of hints towards where Dualla’s story was heading, but I was lost in the joy of reconciliation on her part, especially after she was clearly gutted by what she’d seen on the surface of Earth. When she returns to the Galactica, I genuinely believed that she was just trying to distract herself. She babysat Hera because it brought her happiness to see the child. (Well, I suppose that’s still true, though the motivation for it was different.) She sought out Lee to remind herself why she fell for him in the first place, to rekindle feelings she had fond memories of. It was a chance for a new start, I believed; this was a chance for the slate to be wiped clean. I was actually quite positive that this was the point of Lee repeating his speech to her after they return from their night out: with the search for Earth gone, the fleet can finally put their baggage behind them and just do whatever they wish. And in that moment, Lee wanted Dualla, and Dualla wanted Lee.
I generally don’t deal with suicide well because I have such an intimate history to it, but good fucking lord, I turned into an ugly mess almost instantly after Dee pulled the trigger. It was so matter-of-fact. The certainty of it will always haunt me. And it recontextualized what I’d just seen: Dualla was filling her mind and her heart with the things that made her happy so that her final moment would be one of joy and satisfaction instead of dread, terror, and disappointment.
And oh god, Seelix’s face. Gaeta’s face. Everything is awful and everything hurts.
It’s this moment that truly breaks Admiral Adama, though, and, again, when Edward James Olmos decides he’s going to cry, I get all uncomfortable because he’s a really good crier and then it makes me want to cry and then I can’t stop and then JESUS FUCKING CHRIST WHAT HAS THIS EPISODE TURNED INTO. As Adama keeps drinking, first furious at Dualla, then sympathetic to the idea that he let her down and disappointed her, he breaks. It’s ugly to watch because the first person he seeks out is his oldest friend, Saul Tigh. At this point, with Dualla dead, I started to worry that this show wouldn’t really shy away from killing off Tigh as well. Would this be the moment?
Instead, Tigh comes to recognize that Adama’s confrontation was meant to provoke him into killing the Admiral, that now even Adama wants to give up. The woman he loves doesn’t want his help, a longtime crewmember and friend killed herself, and Earth is a toxic wasteland. He sees no reason to move on, and the story he tells Tigh about the foxes at his uncle’s house exemplifies what so many in the fleet are feeling: they are just tired. It’s been three years of constant fighting and tragedy, and Earth was supposed to be the end of that. Where do they go from here? Why? Why press on? In a spectacular reversal of roles, it’s Saul Tigh that comforts his friend, telling him to stop drinking, urging him to accept that his suicide would help no one. In that moment, I think that Tigh demonstrates that he truly is Adama’s friend, and the best one he’s ever had.
Lee surprised me the most out of all the characters, though. I think it’s easy to misread his reaction as apathy. I think when Starbuck comes to him and he starts to tear up when he has to be the one to inform her about Dualla, we can see how raw his emotions are, how close he is to breaking down like everyone else. I think that Lee’s journey in season four is one of patience and resolve, so it seems rather natural to me that Lee finds a quieter way to cope than all the others. He’s been drifting towards this anyway; he was impatient, a hot head, when we first met him, and it’s almost like his character’s arc is like a coming of age story. But…an adult? LOL LEE GREW UP that sounds ridiculous. However, he was pretty immature at the start of all this, and that’s not how he seems anymore.
Still, I can’t forget how haunting and depressing “Sometimes A Great Notion” is. All of these characters are in a bad place, whether they’re confused about their origin or their purpose. I’ve been given a lot to deal with, and a very clear sign that there’s a whole lot more to deal with. Battlestar Galactica isn’t done with me yet.
This Week on Inappropriate Ad Placement
[youtube CEDjAFi7oJ4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEDjAFi7oJ4 youtube]
Because the first thing you want to watch after Dee blows her brains out is…exploding soup.
I'm laughing so hard but feeling terrible doing it. BSG is making me a bad person.
Oh my god…I should not have found that as funny as I did…
SO INAPPROPRIATELY HILARIOUS I'M SO SORRY. It's just so awful you can't help but laugh.
I'm simply shocked that a channel owned by NBC would display such poor decision-making.
Actually, gallows humor makes me feel better, so this is kinda perfect right now.
OH MY GOD I REMEMBER NOW. lawlz this time I couldn't help but laugh. lol I'm still giggling. But now I remember, when I first saw this, I freaked out and was like WHYYYYYYYYYY. And I cried a lot.
OH MY GOD DID THAT REALLY FUCKING HAPPEN
I'm crying now… from laughter. Oh my god, so tasteless.
there are no words for what I'm feeling right now.
I am CACKLING right now. I'm sure my neighbors thing I'm insane, but this is the best thing I've seen all day.
Please don't use "insane" on this site.
I think this is the only episode of BSG I've only ever seen once. Not because it isn't good- but it's just too sad.
I've heard that when people are extremely depressed (because of things happening in their life, not because of a biological or chemical reason) and they suddenly become cheerful without any change in their circumstances, it's a warning sign that they've already decided to commit suicide. I don't know if it's true but either way it took me completely by surprise.
Yeah, I've heard that a few times. It's because they didn't think they had anything but more depression to look forward to, and now they've made a decision on what to do with their life. Treme also has an incredible demonstration of it.
because of things happening in their life, not because of a biological or chemical reason
Not sure you can easily separate these two, but whatever.
Dualla’s suicide destroyed me. I just burst into tears. I had no words to cope.
But I think Starbuck building a pyre for herself and silently watching her body burned moved me more. That image is still one of my LJ icons. She has endured so much. And no one was there with her. And she took care of it. And she was alone with herself as she burned.
"HOW THE FUCK CAN THE SHOW GO PAST THIS POINT?"
By turning the WTF-dial all the way up to eleven, obviously.
But… these go to 11!
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They need a time-turner. It's the only way to fix everything.
Let's give Mark ALL THE HUGS.
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Just in case you weren't aware, Mark, you skipped "Gur Snpr bs gur Rarzl" the webisodes which aired between "Revelations" and "Sometimes A Great Notion". Was this deliberate? If so, why are you choosing to postpone them?
They actually take place in between this episode and the next, despite being available before this one. Perhaps that is why?
If not, Mark really needs to watch them.
Those webisodes spoil plot elements of 'Sometimes A Great Notion' so Mark is planning to watch and review them tomorrow.
Those webisodes spoil plot elements of 'Sometimes A Great Notion' and technically are supposed to fit between this and the next episode so Mark is planning to watch and review them tomorrow.
Basically! I chose to watch them in the order of the canon this time instead of the airing order. The review for that webisode series goes up tomorrow!
This is very smart because I was definitely minorly confused when I first saw the webisodes before I saw "Sometimes A Great Notion."
I really thought Dee's suicide came later in the season. I had completely forgotten that it was in the FIRST episode after the break. Oh, BSG, the things you do to me.
I don't know if you know this, Mark, but if you rot13 Samuel Anders, you get the name Robert Dylanq. The Q is silent.
(Also, I've always taken the beach to be NYC, near the waterfront. That was my view for 2 years in school, and I feel like I'd know the Brooklyn Bridge anywhere.)
I knew Bob Dylan was a cylon!!! it all makes sense now…
I was going to accuse him of plagiarizing Anders, but I guess I'll let it slide if he is Anders.
It is not meant to be NYC. This was confirmed by Ron Moore immediately after the episode aired. They are standing in the ruins of the temple, which you can tell if you look around at the pieces of the destroyed building.
Fair enough. I still think the art directors were influence by the Brooklyn Bridge for the abandoned bridge parts they had in that scene.
Ahhh that scene with Roslin burning the books of Pythia…I can't even handle it.
I didn't even cry at all during this episode, I was just in a state of shock.
This. 100%
That scene gives me chills. Such a powerful way of showing us what's going on in her head.
the image that's stuck with me is of her lying on the floor while Adama's addressing the fleet. For some reason that seemed the saddest piece of her story–that she's given up the will (at that moment) to even move or do something.
And she's still clutching that tiny plant. 🙁
There are no pretty, quiet criers on this show- they let loose, and it is ugly and awful and oh my heart…
Oh, Dee… ( I have a special affinity for this character b/c my oldest daughter's middle name is Anastasia…)
As for the questions… I could answer them, but people would kill me…
And you still aren't prepared
NGL, during that final scene, I actually shouted at my screen, "I KNEW IT!!!" and had a brief moment of joy because I'd felt that Ellen was a Cylon back from her very first appearance. And then I remembered the entire rest of the episode and just wanted someone to hold me on the astral plane.
I do think, though, that in a way, it sort of cheapens what Tigh did to her on New Caprica and the effect it had on him. Don't get me wrong, at this point, any good news for any of these characters is most welcome but from a writing standpoint, it feels like a game of take-backsies.
Like you, I don't really deal with suicide very much because of a personal history with it, both on the sides of the person who wants to commit it and the person who is left behind after it has been committed. So I kind of feel like I should be experiencing emotions right now with regards to Dualla but I just can't because my brain just sort of shuts down around that entire topic and refuses to deal with it. So…yeah. That's on me, though, not the show, and I'm–well, not "glad" per se, but I think it's valid that they addressed it because after what these people had just gone through, yes, it's almost a certainty that someone, somewhere in the fleet (if not many people) would take their own life. I just can't deal with the emotional repercussions, though.
Ditto to all your questions as well. WTF ALL THE QUESTIONS SO NOT PREPARED.
Endless tears!! I just couldn't handle everyone's grief. Amazing episode, but one of the saddest ever! I can't wait for more!
My thoughtful, in-depth, mature reactions to “Sometimes a Great Notion”:
1. What the fuck.
2. WHAT THE FUCK.
3. WHAT. THE. SWEET. EVERLOVING. FUCK.
4. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?
5. asd;fhjgdufhjkkddf are you kidding me what the fuck
And that’s all I got. BSG has finally defeated me. My brain literally cannot handle this. And there are nine more episodes left. I’m convinced that serious damage will have been done to my higher cognitive functions by the time this is over.
Technically there are eight, with the finale being combined in its Extended Version. But still nine if you count the web series tomorrow.
For the longest time my overriding memory of this show was, as I realise now, based on this episode. The imagery of the crew members just sitting in the hallways with their heads in their hands, or leaning against the walls is such a strong way of showing just how devasted everyone is by this. The "FRAK EARTH!" grafitti that Bill walks past at one point just drives the point home. The show has now reached the point where even the characters involved can't take the misery and despair anymore.
I've probably mentioned it before but Dee was never one of my favourite characters. I just never warmed to her but her death still hit me hard because, as Mark said, it's such a shock the first time you see it. You're so distracted by her expression and that friendly moment with Gaeta.
How the hell does Kara's burnt body have its hair still intact? More cylon trickery!
After watching this episode I just went straight to bed because I couldn't handle doing anything else. Will anything good happen on this show? 🙁
I watched The Two Towers and deleted spam for four hours. I used my despondence to be productive. Sorta.
Doesn't hair last longer than skin and flesh? Her body wasn't incinerated, just dead from an apparent crash.
DEE!
<img src="http://i43.tinypic.com/25ksxz6.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
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Everything just hurts. Dee was amazing throughout this episode, being her usual voice of reason self, telling people (especially Lee) exactly what they need to hear, and I couldn’t have been more shocked when she killed herself after having such a good time with Lee. And Gaeta being one of the first people there and then sitting outside the morgue later. They were CIC BFFs who made exasperated fun of Tigh, and joked about Roslin/Adama.
<img src="http://i44.tinypic.com/152etlt.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"> And Roslin, oh my heart, Roslin facing a deck full of people who trusted her, the people she has done nothing but try to help and ensure the survival of humanity, and having to tell them the worst thing possible with all those hopeful faces staring up at her. In terms of Roslin’s storyline and character is there anything sadder than the image of her burning the prophecies of Pythia?
There are so many OMG moments, especially with Starbuck and Ellen, but I’m just too caught up with the sheer grief of the episode.
*hides in the rare happy moment*
<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/3503siv.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
DEE!
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<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/118kug2.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Everything just hurts. Dee was amazing throughout this episode, being her usual voice of reason self, telling people (especially Lee) exactly what they need to hear, and I couldn’t have been more shocked when she killed herself after having such a good time with Lee. And Gaeta being one of the first people there and then sitting outside the morgue later. They were CIC BFFs who made exasperated fun of Tigh, and joked about Roslin/Adama.
<img src="http://i44.tinypic.com/152etlt.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"> And Roslin, oh my heart, Roslin facing a deck full of people who trusted her, the people she has done nothing but try to help and ensure the survival of humanity, and having to tell them the worst thing possible with all those hopeful faces staring up at her. In terms of Roslin’s storyline and character is there anything sadder than the image of her burning the prophecies of Pythia?
There are so many OMG moments, especially with Starbuck and Ellen, but I’m just too caught up with the sheer grief of the episode.
*hides in the rare happy moment*
<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/3503siv.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
DEE!
<img src="http://i43.tinypic.com/25ksxz6.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/118kug2.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Everything just hurts. Dee was amazing throughout this episode, being her usual voice of reason self, telling people (especially Lee) exactly what they need to hear, and I couldn’t have been more shocked when she killed herself after having such a good time with Lee. And Gaeta being one of the first people there and then sitting outside the morgue later. They were CIC BFFs who made exasperated fun of Tigh, and joked about Roslin/Adama.
<img src="http://i44.tinypic.com/152etlt.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"> And Roslin, oh my heart, Roslin facing a deck full of people who trusted her, the people she has done nothing but try to help and ensure the survival of humanity, and having to tell them the worst thing possible with all those hopeful faces staring up at her. In terms of Roslin’s storyline and character is there anything sadder than the image of her burning the prophecies of Pythia?
There are so many OMG moments, especially with Starbuck and Ellen, but I’m just too caught up with the sheer grief of the episode.
*hides in the rare happy moment*
<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/3503siv.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
DEE!
<img src="http://i43.tinypic.com/25ksxz6.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/118kug2.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Everything just hurts. Dee was amazing throughout this episode, being her usual voice of reason self, telling people (especially Lee) exactly what they need to hear, and I couldn’t have been more shocked when she killed herself after having such a good time with Lee. And Gaeta being one of the first people there and then sitting outside the morgue later. They were CIC BFFs who made exasperated fun of Tigh, and joked about Roslin/Adama.
<img src="http://i44.tinypic.com/152etlt.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"> And Roslin, oh my heart, Roslin facing a deck full of people who trusted her, the people she has done nothing but try to help and ensure the survival of humanity, and having to tell them the worst thing possible with all those hopeful faces staring up at her. In terms of Roslin’s storyline and character is there anything sadder than the image of her burning the prophecies of Pythia?
There are so many OMG moments, especially with Starbuck and Ellen, but I’m just too caught up with the sheer grief of the episode.
*hides in the rare happy moment*
<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/3503siv.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
DEE!
<img src="http://i43.tinypic.com/25ksxz6.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/118kug2.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Everything just hurts. Dee was amazing throughout this episode, being her usual voice of reason self, telling people (especially Lee) exactly what they need to hear, and I couldn’t have been more shocked when she killed herself after having such a good time with Lee. And Gaeta being one of the first people there and then sitting outside the morgue later. They were CIC BFFs who made exasperated fun of Tigh, and joked about Roslin/Adama.
<img src="http://i44.tinypic.com/152etlt.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"> And Roslin, oh my heart, Roslin facing a deck full of people who trusted her, the people she has done nothing but try to help and ensure the survival of humanity, and having to tell them the worst thing possible with all those hopeful faces staring up at her. In terms of Roslin’s storyline and character is there anything sadder than the image of her burning the prophecies of Pythia?
There are so many OMG moments, especially with Starbuck and Ellen, but I’m just too caught up with the sheer grief of the episode.
*hides in the rare happy moment*
<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/3503siv.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
DEE!
<img src="http://i43.tinypic.com/25ksxz6.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/118kug2.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Everything just hurts. Dee was amazing throughout this episode, being her usual voice of reason self, telling people (especially Lee) exactly what they need to hear, and I couldn’t have been more shocked when she killed herself after having such a good time with Lee. And Gaeta being one of the first people there and then sitting outside the morgue later. They were CIC BFFs who made exasperated fun of Tigh, and joked about Roslin/Adama.
<img src="http://i44.tinypic.com/152etlt.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"> And Roslin, oh my heart, Roslin facing a deck full of people who trusted her, the people she has done nothing but try to help and ensure the survival of humanity, and having to tell them the worst thing possible with all those hopeful faces staring up at her. In terms of Roslin’s storyline and character is there anything sadder than the image of her burning the prophecies of Pythia?
There are so many OMG moments, especially with Starbuck and Ellen, but I’m just too caught up with the sheer grief of the episode.
*hides in the rare happy moment*
<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/3503siv.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Oh that last gif *clings to it* Thank god for the Fighting Agathons giving us a brief ray of joy.
That Helo/Athena/Hera/Dee moment was just the cutest thing ever. I love to see them- heck, anyone- getting to be happy.
Moore on the podcast "If I talk in this sing-song voice, you won't know that the apoca-lypse has come and we're all goi-ing to die-ie."
Everything is awful and everything hurts.
True words. BSG is on BBC America pretty often, but I can't bring myself to watch it because it makes me miserable.
Not gonna lie, I'm actually kinda…disappointed Ellen is the Final Cylon. I thought her story line was all tied up beautifully back on New Caprica and, I guess I'll see where this goes, but I was good with what we got. Plus, it shoots all my theories to hell. I never believed Starbuck was the final Cylon, it seemed too obvious, and BSG doesn't really do obvious. I am curious about how her part in this plays out though. I now assume Ellen is hiding on Earth and placed a body in the Viper and made it look like Kara, while Kara was passed out or something. I'll just wait to see where this goes, this show has rarely disappointed me before. Broke me? Oh, yes. But truly disappointed over a long period of time? No.
And Dee, oh, Dee. I was so proud of myself, thinking I finally made an accurate prediction (Dee will take Lee back) and was feeling happy, and then…oh, heartbreak. I was never a fan of Lee and Dee (I still really miss Billy), but I always liked Dee a lot. The way everything is contextualized after the reveal hurts dearly.
Tyrol's backstory was really upsetting too. But I'm still confused. Who are all those people at the market? They weren't Cylons, but they were there when the bomb went off. But all the skeletons they found were Cylon. Does that mean humans and Cylons were living together way back in the day but human bones disintegrated? Also, "way back in the day" doesn't look like how I imagine 2,000 years ago. So does this show take place in the future? I never really grasped that. I always assumed that this took place in the present time where people just happen to fight battles in space. You know, whatevs.
I need more information. I am sooooo confused.
I always assumed from the reveal that we're supposed to take it that they're all Cylons, even if they look human. "Skinjobs". The metal Centurians are also buried there, but then if you look at now there are still both metal and human-looking Cylons. So there were just both back then too.
" I now assume Ellen is hiding on Earth and placed a body in the Viper and made it look like Kara, while Kara was passed out or something."
THIS WAS TOTALLY MY EXACT THEORY AFTER THE FIRST TIME I SAW THIS EPISODE.
For those who have seen the rest of the show:
Nyfb, gurer vf fbbbb zhpu npphenpl va gur bgure erfcbafrf gb guvf cbfg ybym
The most heartbreaking moment, for me, is Gaeta trying to run back to the room and not being able to because of his leg. They're besties, and his first instinct is to run when he hears that gunshot, but he just can't. So he's stumbling down that hall, and almost catches his leg on the door, and he's crouching so awkwardly with his leg stretched out at an almost unnatural angle. Something about that image just makes me cry whenever I rewatch this episode.
Yup yup yup. Dee's death broke my heart, and Gaeta physically stumbling to her and just trying to push her brains back in? Oh no, BSG. What are you doing to me?
Yeah. That episode almost broke me. Almost. . Leoben's horror and confusion at Starbuck was palpable.
So alone. Everyone on Galactica is alone in their aloneness.
What a brilliant episode despite it's bleakness
Dee dying destroyed me. I never really had any strong feelings towards her but after that happened I was just a weeping mess.
Leoben: I think he had his unwavering faith shaken because he'd put so much of himself into helping Kara fulfilling her destiny and seeing her dead body was so out of left field. He didn't see it coming, there was no way he could explain it and that scared the shit out of him. That's the way I read that scene anyway.
I assumed the people in the market with Tyrol were also cylons and that there were once many, many models and cylons were able to reproduce on their own. I'm not sure what would happen if you died, though, or what they did to keep the population from just exploding. I NEED ANSWERS!
"Who are all those people at the market? They weren't Cylons, but they were there when the bomb went off. But all the skeletons they found were Cylon. Does that mean humans and Cylons were living together way back in the day but human bones disintegrated?"
Why would you think any of them were human?
Per Mark:
"How the holy fuck is it at all possible that the Thirteen Tribe were made up of HUMANOID CYLONS? I mean…WHAT THE FUCK????"
This was actually supposed to be a reply to the above comment. Oops
I assume this is to me, yes? 🙂
This is why I was so very confused. I assumed there were only 12 models of Cylons EVER and clearly the people at the market weren't all copies of the same 12, so I had no idea what was going on (big surprise there) and I just thought they were humans. And that maybe these Cylons had bones that were made of something that could resist nuclear bombings. I just really have no idea what's going on.
I can't really get my head around this show any more. As Mark said about an earlier episode, I've lost my ability to can. No more canning for me.
Dee's death was incredibly upsetting. I missed her during the first part of the season (I wish she had more of a story this season) and the sudden focus on her in this episode was ominous, but I wasn't ready for this. I had a nasty feeling in the pit of my stomach that she was making her peace with Lee, but seeing her smile afterwards got my hopes up that she would be okay. Then she killed herself. Seelix and Gaeta's reactions broke my heart, and I can't get the image of her knealing on the beach, sccoping up the water, and letting it run out of her hands out of my head. I'm just really sad about this.
And I don't know what to make of Starbuck; even Leoben was freaked out. What the hell is going on.
Ellen Tigh as a Cylon is about the only thing that makes sense. I didn't really think about it, but you're right, she must have resurrected on a ship, and someone had to have been there to witness it. And since that Six resurrected after being killed on New Caprica, there was a ressurection ship around, so does that mean Ellen survived? I'd like Ellen back.
That Cavil who had to tear his carotid artery open was downloaded from New Caprica too.
I missed her during the first part of the season (I wish she had more of a story this season) and the sudden focus on her in this episode was ominous
I know it's horrible, but when I saw how much she was featured in the "previously on", I thought "OK, Dee's either the final cylon or she's dying." (I would have much preferred the former.) The worst part was they included so much older footage of her, like from the beginning of her and Lee's relationship, as if they thought since they'd been using her so little the audience might not remember much about her. 🙁
I just assumed death, and I was worried it'd be radiation sickness. I wish she was a Cylon. 🙁
Ooh, so the 5 models were the only ones who survived? I like that. Maybe they created the 7 other models and made them so they can't reproduce with other Cylons. I just want to finish watching this so I can know all the answers and then go watch something happy.
I guess? Why were only those five saved, though? I can't tell if when Ellen tells Saul they'll be reunited again, if it's because there's something special about them or if it's just because all cylons can be resurrected. Why didn't "they", whoever they is, just resurrect the entire population of Earth? Why only those five? Why now? SO MANY QUESTIONS!! I seriously understand nothing! It's a good thing this show is incredibly bleak or else I'd probably marathon the rest of it.
"Saul, it's okay. Everything's in place. We'll be reborn… again. Together."
I'm always torn between being disturbed at the sight of the heavily decayed body and laughing at how her hair is still in perfect condition.
even in death, everyone has perfect hair (minus Lee)
"Go watch something happy."
THIS.
Just a note regarding the title of the episode:
I saw a few people bitching (in rot13) that BSG has "really pretentious" episode titles, and this one was named as a prime example.
Please read this wikipedia article about the novel Sometimes a Great Notion. There are several direct, and even more indirect, references to the novel's plot and themes in the episode's plot and themes (and dialog). If you read the novel itself, you'll find even more of them than you might get from the wikipedia article. There are multiple meanings to the words "sometimes a great notion" in the context of the episode, the novel, and the song ("Goodnight, Irene").
Other episode titles that were claimed to be "pretentious" are also significant cultural references and hold multiple meanings if you are aware of their sources. A little bit of research won't go amiss.
Please don't use the word 'bitching' on this site.
That was me, and I still think it's pretentious. 😛 Something can be a cultural reference that holds multiple meanings and also be pretentious. I'm just poking fun at the show, not saying it's horrible.
I think one reason this particular title bothers me is that it's a sentence fragment. Sometimes a great notion WHAT? What does a great notion do sometimes? Don't leave me hanging, title!
LOL – sentence fragments can be particularly evocative, though! It's asking you to engage — what is the great notion? Earth? Cylon/Human cooperation? Especially since the themes of the novel include the idea of fighting a losing battle, fighting against the river (where Moore brought in his "folk tale" about the foxes giving up), and the lyrics from Good Night Irene "Sometimes I take a great notion / to jump in the river and drown" — considering Dee's suicide, and Roslin's burning of the scrolls and Adama's attempt to antagonize Tigh into killing him, all of these things could be the resolution of that sentence. I much prefer fiction that asks me to sit up than asks me to sit back, and I think we can all agree that BSG does that, and so do many of the episode titles. They ask you to bring yourself to the table.
Out of curiosity, have you read the novel? And, regardless of whether you have, do you find Kesey's title, that alludes to a quintessentially American song about futility, pretentious for a novel?
I didn't even know there was a novel until you pointed it out, so I suppose I can blame the sentence fragment on Kesey. 🙂 And it makes more sense once you know the lyrics; I'm not familiar with the song either. Consider me uneducated I suppose. Nah, I don't find the title pretentious for a novel, but for an episode of a show I think it's a bit much. Especially when combined with other titles from this season.
Naq V guvax bar ernfba gubfr gvgyrf oht zr vf V'z ernyyl qvfnccbvagrq va gur raq bs gur fubj. Vs gur fubj unq pbagvahrq ng guvf yriry bs dhnyvgl, znlor vg jbhyq or qvssrerag, ohg nf vg vf V srry yvxr gur jevgref jrer yvxr "urer vf n ovt vzcbegnag fubj nobhg ovt vzcbegnag guvatf naq jr'er tbvat gb tvir vg ovt vzcbegnag rcvfbqr gvgyrf… ohg gura va gur ynfg srj rcvfbqrf bs gur fubj jr jvyy oyngnagyl qvferfcrpg bhe nhqvrapr ol tvivat gurz na raqvat gung znxrf ab frafr naq rkcrpgvat gurz gb fjnyybj vg."
This episode left me numb and that's all I have to say about that.
I was actually more upset about the fact that the brightest point in Dualla's life was listening to Lee redo his speech. I mean really? I don't hate Lee or anything, I am just really really amused at his evolution into a total square.
I was at first really taken aback at how devastated everyone was about earth. So this planet sucks, big deal, you'll find another one that doesn't and now they even have like half the cylons on their side/not trying to kill them so that the whole thing is less stressfull and Adama didn't even believe it existed in the first place. Compared to being wiped out as a species this didn't seem to rate that high on the scale of tragedy, but in context of their being exhausted it makes sense that people would start breaking down freals.
Earth being full of cylons is still the best reveal ever though.
"I am just really really amused at his evolution into a total square. "
Oh my god you just perfectly summed up my feelings towards Lee in one hilariously perfect sentence.
I don't have anything against the poor guy, he gets handed the short end of the stick a lot. But…he starts out as a hotshot viper pilot and ends up as kind of a downer, giving sanctimonious speeches to one and all.
Poor Lee. 😛
Those are more or less my sentiments!
I took it as Dualla's bright point being just spending positive time with a person she loves and watching him experience hope for the future (even though it's something that she herself can't muster). It's like… she's done, she doesn't want to go on any further. But she's shoring up bits of hope that maybe the people she loves can be ok – and then ending things before that dream crumbles.
lol Lee = total square. Accurate label is accurate.
LOL I totally understand that but I was just watching that scene and like, could they really find nothing else to talk about?
I agree. Also, there's the factor that his faith was in Kara… who's now lying there dead. He's got to be thinking if this "Kara" is really Kara at all.
ok, in the midst of all that horrible bleakness (OMG DEEEEEEEEEE) and mind-fuckery of various reveals, I will always hold with me the glee of Leoben running away like a scared little girl. Got a little more than you bargained for, CREEPY STALKER DUDE? Thought you were tough enough to lead her on her destiny? HA! Forever unpreprared, Leoben, no matter what you believed!
It makes me snicker just thinking about it.
(this post brought to you by me trying desperately to remember something happy about this episode)
Oh Leoben, such a fair-weather obsessed stalker.
Mmm… this episode. Today was the second time ever that I have seen it, the first being when it aired. I watched pieces of it, including the final scene and the Kara scenes, after it aired, but I've only seen the thing through twice. It was tough. Oh gosh.
I posted this yesterday in rot13:
"I have never seen [Adama] worse than the moment Tigh is arrested and taken away. I don’t think I’ll ever see him in a worse state than that. I don’t think I’ve ever seen disappointment manifest itself in such a visceral, ugly way."
Oh poor Mark, poor, poor Mark – he has no idea. Sigh.
I still sigh. Oh, Dee. I miss you! How haunting is the humming? Oh god, I shiver. And Kara, I just remember being blown away by it – I thought, before the episode began, that she wasn't the final cylon, but that she had died and somehow come back. Then when she found her body, I was like OMG it IS Kara, then the episode ended and I was like "back to square one… WTF?" And y'all… Laura. Just, Laura. I WANT TO GIVE HER 100000000 HUGS.
to Jenny M, that is so cool about Anders' name! Whaaaaaaat.
Despite having only seen it twice, and before today only once, I actually love this episode. Absolutely everything has been taken away from these people. They are so broken, and they have so little. The only thing they actually do have is other people, whom they rebuff. Which is totally human. Completely normal. I know I for one have experienced moments where I felt a real sense of hopelessness and just wanted NOTHING of people who were trying to comfort me. But I think, the lesson that is so hard to learn is that if we do reach out to other people in these situations, only then will we be able to emerge on "the other side," as Kara puts it. I love this episode, because in beginning the final chapter, we have to keep going, as Mark said, even though the main narrative thrust appears to have disappeared.
BUT… has this show really changed course? Based solely on this and previous episodes and my own speculation, I would say, no. It's not going in a new direction, per se, as much as it is just continuing on the line between points A and B – we're just moving past B. It's like RDM was like "LAWLZ JK THE END IS ACTUALLY AT POINT C GOTCHA – but have hope, because we've going in the same direction as always. We weren't wrong about which way to go." In the text over the main credits, we see each week that a number of survivors are in search of a home… called Earth. But I think Earth is an afterthought. The main theme is that they're in search of a home.
I think these characters will end up finding homes because that is more about finding an emotional state of mind than it is about finding a place. Like Bill and Laura – even though they have rough times in this episode, their love for each other will help them both, just as Saul's love for Bill has already helped him.
Sorry for the preachiness, those are just my two (million) cents.
Ubj gur shpx bu zl tbq ryyra gvtu vf gur svany plyba (obyq naq pncf erzbirq ol zr gb or farnxl urur) qvq fur rira shpxvat xabj??? Qvq fur xabj fur jnf bar be jnf ure qrngu n zvfgnxr? Vs fur qvrq fb ybat ntb, jul unira'g jr frra ure lrg???? Yvxr….fur jbhyq unir unq gb unir qbjaybnqrq nsgre ure qrngu ba Arj Pncevpn, juvpu zrnaf fbzrbar zhfg unir orra gurer jura fur jbxr hc ba n Plyba fuvc.
grururururururur. Fb hacercnerq. Rkprcg gung… npghnyyl, ur'f svtherq bhg fur'f nyernql qbjaybnqrq. V qvqa'g svther gung bhg – ng yrnfg, V qvqa'g svther bhg fbzrbar ryfr unq qbjaybnqrq ure. Npghnyyl, zl gurbel jnf jr'q frr Q'Naan ntnva. Naq fur, univat whfg orra puvyyvat ba Rnegu sbe n juvyr, jbhyq unir qvfpbirerq gung Ryyra jnf nyfb whfg puvyyvat ba Rnegu va fbzr xvaq bs ohaxre be fbzrguvat. YBY FB JEBAT V JNF.
Hee, oh, it doesn't really rot13 to that – I was just being silly! It would be cool if it did, though!
oh, Dee. D:
Such a dark episode. I believe it's definitely the darkest BSG episode so far. It's devastating as we watch 2 members of each group just plain overload & give up — Dee and Roslin, Three and Leoben. (I know many viewers may not care about Leoben's retreat & loss of faith, but his character always fascinated me so that hit me hard as well.)
Starbuck finding her corpse did shock me but I think less than many other viewers — I had already taken it for granted that she'd died and somehow [pick one: metamorphized/ascended/come back different/wasn't actually Starbuck at all but just thought she was].
Was I the only one screaming at Kara on the screen, "TELL SOMEONE! TELL LEE, OR TELL ADAMA! TELL HELO! THEY LOVE YOU AND WOULDN'T ABANDON YOU. DON'T CARRY THIS BURDEN ALONE!" ??
And yet we get a few tiny glimpses of hope — Ellen and Tigh's connected past & possible(?) future; Adama inviting the Cylons to continue on with the fleet; Athena, Helo, and Hera still continuing as a functional loving family despite everything. (Somewhere in the beginning of S4 I started just making Athena & Helo my sanity point — as long as their little family can stay together, I decided, all hope could not be truly lost… right?) SOME PEOPLE HAVE ROSLIN/ADAMA, I HAVE THE FIGHTING AGATHONS.
(Somewhere in the beginning of S4 I started just making Athena & Helo my sanity point — as long as their little family can stay together, I decided, all hope could not be truly lost… right?)
I totally did the same thing, Fighting Agathons ftw!
Jenny M was joking.
I think she was about to tell Lee, but then when she discovered that he had just suffered Dee's suicide, she didn't want to burden him with anything else. But I do wish she had told SOMEONE. Helo is her BFF! He would never judge!
I started watching this show long after it'd been off the air so I ended up getting spoiled on Dee's death. XP Blessedly I had no idea what episode it happened in though, nor did I know why she died, so that was at least surprising. BUT STILL.
Rule #1 of BSG: When you think you've hit rock bottom and that things can't get any worse, YOU'RE ALWAYS WRONG. ALWAYS.
I adore the bit where Starbuck confirms that it's her body, and Leoben's reaction is pretty much "You know what? Fuck it. This is too weird even for me."
god i support this comment with all my heart
Yeah if something freaks out Leoben you know it can't be good….:(
This episode was actually the last one filmed before the Writer's Strike.
[youtube H_qEIG7moFI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_qEIG7moFI youtube]
[youtube aiBfxQfJq30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiBfxQfJq30 youtube]
V’z whfg tbvat gb fnl guvf: Gur arkg guerr rcvfbqrf ner zl snibevgr fgergpu bs gur ragver frevrf.
And I still cannot deal with Dee’;s suicide. I literally jumped out of my bed and then more or less sobbed the first time I watched this episode.
rot13'd the first part since it's an expectation spoiler.
Two things I forgot to mention in my earlier post:
Just a fun fact for any other film geeks out there, the direction and cinematography on Earth, mostly in this episode but also in the final scene of Revelations, is intended as an homage to Ingmar Bergman. (He'd died fairly recently when this was being made, and of course it's thematically appropriate because) While I respect Bergman's talent and artistic vision, I actually have a really difficult time watching anything of his because it's simply too heavy, bleak, and depressing. So yeah, apropos to this.
And the second thing:
nsgre qvfpbirevat gur obql
Xnen: Vs lbh'ir tbg na rkcynangvba sbe guvf, abj'f gur gvzr.
Yrbora: V qba'g unir bar.
(Svefg gvzr V fnj guvf, V arire ernyvmrq vg jnf zrgn!)
Athena and Helo with Hera — most beautiful, adorable family ever y/y?
I watched Dee play with Hera and then seem so happy with Lee and I told my husband that I bet she was going to be wanting a baby of her own. And then she walked into her quarters and shot herself in the head. In retrospect I feel like it was pretty much the WORST READING EVER OF A FICTIONAL SITUATION. Oh, Dee.
God, this is a grim episode, and yet, I love it. But mostly what I want to talk about is Dee and her suicide.
I spent five years doing crisis intervention with adults with serious mental illness. I was the hotline, I got the emergency calls to the ER when someone made a suicide attempt, etc. A main part of my job was determining whether someone was a serious suicide risk or not.
I find Dee's behavior in this episode incredibly realistic. It's not uncommon for someone who has finally Made Up Their Mind to commit suicide to seem very happy. For them, it is a relief to have finally decided, to have given themselves permission to die. It's not uncommon for people to visit loved ones and have very positive encounters right before suicide. It's very difficult to predict someone's behavior at that point, because we tend to believe what people present (i.e. if someone seems happy, we assume they are.) I myself have had this experience, when a favorite client of mine saw me, hugged me, told me how much they appreciated everything I'd done for them, and talked about how much better they felt. And then he was dead two days later.
But I totally believe that Dee knew what she planned to do from the moment on the Raptor coming back from Earth. It was having made that decision that allowed her to have those last few hours, because she wasn't worried about anything anymore. She knew all of it was no longer her concern.
YAY DEE!
She finally gets to reunite with Billy in the Disco room WOOP WOOP!
SO WE CAN STOP BEING SAD NOW. OKAY? OKAY.
OK so they can test peoples' bones to find out if they were Cylons from TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO but they can't get a working detector going on living people? Whatever, it's still cool that we find out that the Thirteenth Tribe were all Cylons.
This is weird to me though, because if there were thirteen tribes living on Kobol back in the day, wouldn't they have intermarried and had kids together? I mean, who knows, maybe the tribes were really remote and separated from each other, but it doesn't sound like it from what they've said so far. It's weird to me that the 13th tribe would be ALL Cylons and the other 12 would be ALL humans.
Aww Tyrol has glasses on and a nice jacket and stuff. Good to see him looking genuinely happy, even if it is in a weird flashback.
STARBUCK. Oh god how awful must it be to find your own body.
Guvf vf jul V'z natel nobhg jung gurl qvq jvgu Fgneohpx. Vg znxrf ab frafr. V pna ohl gung gur bevtvany Fgneohpx'f obql naq ivcre jrag guebhtu fbzr xvaq bs jbezubyr be jungrire juvyr rkcybqvat naq raqrq hc ba guvf Rnegu. Ohg gura jurer qvq ure Ivcre pbzr sebz? V jnagrq Fgneohpx gb trg fbzr nafjref, qnzzvg.
I don't really buy that Starbuck's destroyed skeleton would still have blonde hair. Wouldn't it be singed all to hell? I think the dog tags are enough for us to know it's her.
Fuck you Leoben, you've been Kara's cheerleader all along and now you just run away? Fuck you. You creepy stalker/kidnapper.
So in another life Anders was a rock star? I can buy that.
I get kind of irrationally angry at Dee for killing herself. She's made everyone so goddamn sad. Lee. Adama. Gaetaaaa 🙁
Adama tries to commit suicide by Tigh. But Tigh is having none of it. I love his character so much. He's been through hell and come out the other side and he's stronger for it. And he would never kill his best friend.
V sbetbg pbzcyrgryl gung "Ryyra, lbh'er gur svsgu" pnzr va guvf rcvfbqr! V gubhtug jr qvqa'g svaq bhg nobhg vg hagvy fur jbxr hc va gur ongu bs tbb.
And this completes the irony-circle of Tigh killing Ellen for collaborating with Cylons. SURPRISE THEY ARE BOTH CYLONS