Mark Watches ‘Buffy The Vampire Slayer’: S02E07 – Lie To Me

In the seventh episode of the second season of Buffy The Vampire Slayer, a friend from Buffy’s past begins to attend Sunnydale High, but what starts off as pleasant ends in disaster. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to watch Buffy.

Oh, there’s just so much to love in this episode, isn’t there? It’s not without a few problems in characterization or a few wince-inducing lines, but “Lie To Me” is seriously a spectacularly written and acted episode of Buffy. At heart, the episode examines the various ways in which one can lie to someone else or to yourself; the differing degrees in which a lie can affect a person are at center stage. I think that if you keep track, there’s not a single character in “Lie To Me” that doesn’t tell a lie, and it’s one of the more clever attributes of this episode. They range from smaller lies (Giles’s opinion on monster truck racing) to the whoppers that threaten lives (Ford’s plan for his vampire-devotee friends).

The main set-up begins when Angel interrupts a feeding attempt by Drusilla. I’m not quite sure how I feel about her character just yet. She does get more depth in this episode, but even that is only told to us by Angel; all we know is that his horrific actions caused her to lose a grip on reality. It does feel weird to me that this is the only aspect to define at this point. She’s strange and awkward, and now we learn it’s all Angel’s fault. Either way, there’s this really bizarre dynamic between the two of them, and I don’t know whether it’s a commentary on Stockholm syndrome, or a really gross attempt to say that Drusilla is in love with the man who tortured her. Either way, at the opening of the episode, Buffy witnesses Drusilla hitting on Angel, and the moment puts her in a weird spot.

I don’t think that this is meant to say that Angel is a cheater, at least not at this point. I think Buffy is grappling with the idea that Angel has a past, and it’s one she has no way to relate to it. I think there’s something there that even I can relate to, and perhaps you can too. I’ve not had the most experience with relationships, but I always feel awkward when I’m getting to know someone that I like because I can sense the chasm between our experiences more than I’d like to. Part of that comes from my atypical upbringing and the fact that so many staples of American life that others have gone through are things I have no familiarity with. Obviously, I’ve never dated a vampire that’s a couple hundred centuries old. (Or have I??? OH GOD WHAT IF.) But I don’t take the writing in this show at face-value because I think so much of it works as this clever commentary on high school life, on growing up, and on trying to navigate your first relationship.

For Buffy, she doesn’t know what she needs to do to capture Angel’s attention. Even if he didn’t actually do anything with Drusilla, it’s attention that she’d rather have on herself. It’s here that “Lie to Me” introduces us to Billy Fordham, someone Buffy went to school with in Los Angeles. It’s never outright confirmed that they were in a relationship, but the two exhibit a closeness that suggests more than a friendship. I suppose it ultimately doesn’t matter what they were in Los Angeles. For now, it represents something I am so goddamn bored of seeing: a trigger for Xander’s jealous.

You know, I’ve stopped thinking this has a single thing to do with his character and I almost want to like him just to spite the writers. Are they so lazy that they refuse to give him a layer beyond this? It’s making angry, irrationally so! Nearly every character on this show has managed to get some depth in the script, and Xander’s the same person he was in season one in this episode. Did the writers exhaust their energy reserves or something? Does Xander need to earn more XP to level-up to “Complex Character”? I’m done disliking Xander as a character because it’s so goddamn boring. Writers, please step up your game and do something different. Oh, and if you ever put another line into an episode that suggests that fat people can’t be attractive to pretty girls, I swear I will write you the angriest letter imaginable. I don’t know if you know, but I’m really good at writing letters.

Wait, no, can we talk about that? I’ve slimmed down in recent years, but for about four or five years, I was the “big” dude in my group of gay friends, and that meant I was non-threatening to them. I swear to you, I actually tolerated this for like six years. I don’t know why! Well, I’ve always been desperate for acceptance, but I had a group of gay male friends who would always consider me their wingman because they knew I didn’t have the body to distract their dates or their possible hook-ups with. YEAH, THAT WAS A WHOLE LOT OF FUN. Even when I got into a long-term relationship, I was still that guy. It was one of many reasons why I left Los Angeles after living there for a good portion of my life. I had to cut these toxic people out of my life. So when Xander said that line, I just wanted to throttle Joss Whedon. SHUT UP DUDE.

Anyway, BACK TO THE EPISODE. The inevitable clash happens at the Bronze, when Buffy runs into Angel and is forced to introduce him to Ford. Oh, holy awkward, this is so terrible. I mean….lord. This show really knows how to make me feel uncomfortable in less than ten seconds! I wasn’t surprised that Buffy was all, “YEAH LET’S GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE.”

(Also, can I take a moment to say that this episode absolute cements my complete and total love of Willow? Her jokes are not only hilarious in this episode, but Alyson Hannigan nails that horrifically awkward perfection that is her character so beautifully to me. I will never not think that her laugh when Buffy asks her if she’s drinking coffee again is one of the greatest things in the entire show. Oh god, and Angel in her bedroom. Just…I love Willow and Alyson Hannigan so much.)

So, this was all par for the course. The episode was okay, and I wasn’t really sure what the main “plot” would be aside from a brief appearance of Spike and Drusilla and the introduction of Ford. I wasn’t terribly interested in the concept of Buffy having to hide her slaying from Ford as she does in the alley behind the Bronze.

And then he walked around the corner to see her fighting. Oh, cool, that’ll be easy to explain away. OH, WHAT THE FUCK, HE JUST SAW HER SLAY A VAMPIRE?!?!?!?! WAIT WHAT THE FUCK HOW CAN YOU DO THAT. Oh my god, how is Whedon going to explain that in the epis–SWEET SUMMER CHILD HOW DOES FORD KNOW THAT BUFFY IS THE SLAYER SOMEONE PICK UP MY BRAIN.

In just thirty seconds, this episode goes from “casual exploration of high school relationships” to “BY GANDALF’S BEARD I CANNOT BREATHE.” I could barely deal with the idea that Ford had somehow figured out, and then Ford is walking into a goth club, and then I start laughing, and then I realize these people worship vampires in some idealized way, and then I’m not laughing anymore, and then I’m confused, and then I am shouting at my Netflix screen over and over again because this episode has already broken me in ways I did not anticipate. It’s truly a brilliant idea, one I certainly could not have predicted appearing so early into this show’s run. It was both hilarious and chilling to me because I actually know someone who wishes they were a vampire. (I’m not friends with them anymore and I am going to go to Facebook right now to see if they still are like that.) (I’ve returned–they don’t have a Facebook. Drat.)

And really, it’s one of many ways this story addresses lying: these characters are all lying to themselves. At first, they’re oblivious to it, of course. They think they’ve found the answer to a better life, to a higher consciousness. Yet even when the evidence is pretty much handed to them by Buffy near the end, they still deny it as much as they can. The bigger lie, though, is Ford’s. He’s purposely positioned himself as the blast from her past, one that he knows she was attracted to, and he exploits that. UM GROSS. It’s also why, ultimately, I don’t sympathize with him, but we’ll get to that reveal in a bit.

At the same time, Xander, Willow, and Angel also have to participate in a form of lying as well. The context of it is dealt with in a surprisingly refreshing way. Initially, we’re made to believe that Willow and Angel have the best intentions in mind, so we sympathize with them. And it’s true! They really are concerned for Buffy, and they don’t want to hurt her feelings if they end up being wrong about Ford. However, I was impressed with the fact that when this is revealed to Buffy, the story explicitly makes us feel pretty awful that her friends lied to her. Yes, they wanted the best for her, but Buffy very plainly states it to Angel: Shouldn’t she get to decide that for herself? It’s presumptuous of others to assume that their decisions are better than hers.

That being said, there was one thing about her conversation with Angel that was downright confusing to me. Now, let me first state that I’m coming at this differently for a reason. I’ve only been in two serious relationships. One lasted less than six months, and the second lasted over three years. Both times, it was quite some time before I told the guy that I loved him. I’m not quick to those words in a genuine way. (LOL I seriously just noticed that I am much quicker to saying that I love fictional characters than real people. CLEARLY I AM A FLAWLESS HUMAN BEING oh my god forever alone.) It takes a lot to win my trust, and that absolutely has to be there before I can say it.

When Angel asked Buffy if she loved him, I totally thought she’d say no. When she confirmed that she did, I was a bit bewildered. Um…they have kissed maybe twice? Haven’t they had like…ten conversations? They haven’t even spent an uninterrupted twenty-four-hour period together! Does she love him? Really? Then I started thinking that wasn’t really fair. Not everyone was a hopeless loser like me, so why judge others by the same standard. Perhaps different people have different feelings on the word! I can accept that!

But seriously, shouldn’t they….hang out? I mean, we genuinely haven’t seen them spend more than one full night together? IS THIS WEIRD OR IS IT JUST ME BEING ALL TRAGIC AND GAY AND STUFF?

Regardless, I don’t think that really affects how I feel about the story either way. Both Buffy and Angel do begin to suspect something’s a bit off about this story, and that’s how the show tells us that Angel should have been honest with her from the start. If you think about it, Buffy probably would have figured things out anyway. She knew Ford was lying when the vampire he supposedly killed runs out with a book for Spike. How much longer would it have been before she put the pieces together? Though, I can’t really complain; if Angel’s investigation hadn’t happened, we would never have gotten the scene where that guy walks by Angel wearing the same clothes as him. I mean…it is seriously so beautiful I could weep.

Actually, there’s another line that made me want to cry with joy:

“I’ve known you for two minutes and I can’t stand you. I don’t really feature you living forever.”


At this point, I was just interested in the resolution of this all. Obviously, Buffy would have to confront Ford, but I was taken back that she did it so early. You know, I also think that Sarah Michelle Gellar is at the top of her game once she arrives at the club. Her ability to switch between frantic desperation and quiet sympathy and then to fury is a beautiful thing to watch. Buffy’s also never dealt with people like this: they all refuse to believe her in a way that’s just utterly absurd to her. Normally, she could just say Y’ALL THERE ARE VAMPIRES COMING, GET THE FUCK OUT. But these people want that. She tries to explain that’s it not eternal life, that a demon lives in your body and takes your memories, but even that doesn’t phase Ford.

Then there’s the big reveal: Ford has brain cancer and is orchestrating all of this to preserve his body before it breaks down. On the one hand, you know I love morally ambiguous villains more than I love water and air. I appreciated Whedon giving him that sort of depth, to extinguish Buffy’s rage for a moment when she realized he was just fighting to survive. That genuinely interests me! But I also think I’m just bored at this point in my life with the idea that people who are sick or disabled will go to lengths that are ridiculous and, well, murderous. Of course that’s not the only dynamic to Ford’s decision, so I’m left feel torn between the two emotions. I think I’ll just stay forever in conflict? Honestly, I’m okay with that.

There’s really no way that Ford was going to survive this, but the scene at the very end of “Lie To Me,” which actually contains the very line of the episode title, is a touching way to bring this all together. Everybody lies, and they all lie for different reasons. It’s here that she just wants things to be less ambiguous and confusing. That’s not only a commentary on Ford’s decision, but on her life in general, on her feelings for Angel, on the way her friends treated her in this episode. So she asks Giles to lie to her and tell her it’ll be all right.

But this is something Joss Whedon wrote. Who are we kidding? Nothing’s going to be all right.

About Mark Oshiro

Perpetually unprepared since '09.
This entry was posted in Buffy The Vampire Slayer and tagged , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

509 Responses to Mark Watches ‘Buffy The Vampire Slayer’: S02E07 – Lie To Me

  1. <img src=>


    • arctic_hare says:


    • mediamadmeg says:

      THIS is why Moffat's episodes will always feel ever so slightly out-of-place in the RTD seasons. Because RTD was OBSESSED with Buffy ("Ybir naq Zbafgref" jnf na RKGERZRYL hafhpprffshy nggrzcg ng na ubzntr gb "Gur Mrccb."), whereas Moffat clearly wasn't.

      • Smurphy says:

        Really? Hmmm… must remember this as I continue to watch. Nyfb V jnf jbaqrevat UBJ vf gung fhccbfrq gb or na ubzntr gb gung rcvfbqr ohg V thrff vg vf "ohssl-yvgr" ohg Knaqre vf n znva punenpgre hayvxr Rygba. vqx…

  2. echinodermata says:

    "Things used to be pretty simple – a hundred years, just hanging out, feeling guilty. I really honed my brooding skills."


  3. enigmaticagentscully says:


    I want to give Buffy a hug. Seriously, her life pretty much sucks 99% of the time. Finally a nice guy who she was friends with in her old life shows up and he turns out to be a total bad guy? And her friends are sneaking around behind her back as well? I mean, they had good reason, but poor sweetheart! She’s really been through the wringer lately, huh?

    So Angel psychologically tortured Drusilla to madness and then turned her. That’s…pretty dark. Bravo. I love that he obviously feels guilty about the things he did, even though he wasn’t exactly responsible for his actions. I also love that Buffy clearly finds it uncomfortable but doesn’t really blame him for those things, because she understands why it happened. Most of all though, I love this line…
    “Things used to be pretty simple. A hundred years, just hanging out, feelin' guilty… I really honed my brooding skills”

    In other news…

    Giles: Alright, alright, I put myself in your hands
    Jenny: That sounds like fun.

    Jenny Calendar, there are not enough words in the English language, or indeed any language, to express my deep and abiding love for you. Just the fact that you thought taking Giles of all people to go and watch monster trucks was in any way a good idea is endlessly hilarious and wonderful.
    And, at the risk of being a shameless stan of my own art, I’ve been looking for an excuse to post this…

    <img src="; border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">

    See what you’ve turned me into, Buffy fans? I blame you all for this. I have become someone who spends their free time just sitting around drawing fanart of couples they think are adorable oh wait I already did that anyway.

    <img src="; border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">

    • arctic_hare says:


    • lula34 says:

      You perfectly captured Jenny's late 90's Mary Jane clogs. PERFECT. I give you all the awards.

    • rabbitape says:

      LOVE IT

    • cait0716 says:

      Huzzah fanart! I love it.

      Buffy really is a very forgiving person. She is able to look beyond Angel's past and keep him in her life. She's able to feel sympathy for Ford, even though she knows his choices are wrong. I wonder if this empathy for other people is part of what makes her such an effective slayer.

      • rabbitape says:

        I think her empathy serves her slaying and her slaying serves her empathy.

        In her line of work, she's struggling with really tough choices and confronted by how short life is on a daily (nightly?) basis, so surely that makes her more willing to sympathize with others in similarly tough situations who don't make the best decisions or have a lot to ask forgiveness for.

    • Hanna says:

      Yay! To the fanart. That is both awesome and sweet!

    • knut_knut says:

      I LOVE YOUR FANART!! More shameless fanart postings, please!

    • NB2000 says:

      Awww that's an adorable piece of art!

    • Dru says:


      (and DYING at the little blush on Giles's cheeks, GUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHH!!!!!!!)

    • ladililn says:

      OH MY GOD THAT IS THE BEST. Let ME stan you–do you have more Buffy fanart?? Are there links??? Point me to them so that I may worship you (too far? :P)

      • enigmaticagentscully says:


        There is no more Buffy fanart…YET.


        • ladililn says:

          Oh that's right! You're a Buffy newbie. Duh-doy! Well, in that instance, I am very much looking forward to all that that "YET" implies. XD

    • hassibah says:

      Holy shit amazing, thanks for sharing.

    • Epiphany says:

      That is your own art? It is really cute, especially Gile's blush! Of all the couples on Buffy, and all the possible "forbidden love" couples, I just want to see more Giles and Jenny. Maybe I just love the unconventional romance Jenny brings to the table. Somehow, she thinks monster trucks is an awesome date for a librarian, and I love it. 😀

      • enigmaticagentscully says:

        I hear ya, Giles/Jenny literally became my OTP in the first episode she was in.

        Sometimes I just get dragged away by the shipping train and all anyone else can do is try to hang on until it passes. ^^

    • That's your fanart? Wait, didn't you also do the adorable BSG fanart? And the one of Mark?

      <img src=>

    • psycicflower says:


    • settlingforhistory says:

      This is so adorable! I think this fanart made my day, Giles's flush makes me want to hug him forever.
      Don't be shy to show your work, you are so talented!
      You are right not to regret anything, Buffy fanart is never a waste of time, Buffy fanart is beautiful and always appreciated.

    • enchantedsleeper says:


    • notemily says:

      OMG that is SO CUTE. You drew that? ADORABLE

    • theDMG says:

      I want a 50 thumbs up button for everything in this post. Well, except for the chicken because I was nauseous at the time…so that didn't help. But still I REGRET NOTHING!

  4. Seventh_Star says:

    1. v yvxr gung qeh pnyyf natry "qrne obl", nf vg vf rfgnoyvfurq yngre gung vg'f qneyn'f snibevgr nssrpgvbangr grez sbe uvz. vg znl or n fvzcyr pbvapvqrapr, ohg v yvxr gb guvax gung vg vfa'g.

    2. gur hfr bs gur jbeq "uhag" urer ol tvyrf naq ohssl vf vagrerfgvat gb zr orpnhfr va frnfba 5'f qenphyn rcvfbqr, ohssl irurzragyl qravrf gung fur vf bhg "uhagvat" inzcverf naq vafvfgf gung fur vf bayl "qbvat ure wbo". gurer ner pregnvayl infgyl qvssrerag pbaabgngvbaf. ol frnfba 5, ohssl vf svtugvat (rzbgvbanyyl) gb xrrc sebz orvat ghearq vagb zrgncubevpny fgbar, fb fur jnagf gb oryvrir gung fur qbrfa'g gnxr nal wbl be fngvfsnpgvba va gur xvyy.

    3. jason behr really made the rounds on the wb in the late 90's.

    4. "oh, THAT'S what that song is about?"

    bless you, willow. that is seriously one of the dirtiest mainstream songs in existence.

    5. gur svefg bs frireny nccrnenaprf ol whyvn yrr nf punagreryyr nxn yvyyl nxn naar.

    6. willow in her pajama tee and fuzzy slippers while still wearing a face full of makeup is distracting to me. not that she shouldn't be wearing makeup, i'm just like, "don't forget to wash your face before bedtime!"

    7. willow hates keeping secrets/ lying, but she's so awkwardly cute while doing so!

    "there aren't two of them in the world." amen, buffy.

    8. i am particularly fond of this exchange. inconsequential thoughts bounce around my brain and come out my mouth before i can stop them sometimes (ok, most of the time).

    willow: "ok, but do they really stick out?"
    xander: "what?"
    willow: "sore thumbs. do they stick out? i mean, have you ever seen a thumb and thought,
    'wow! that baby is sore'?"
    xander: "you have too many thoughts."

    9. i want spike to suck on my fingers. that is all.

    10. buffy said "i love you" to angel! onq, onq guvatf ner pbzvat, ohssl. ONQ GUVATF.

    11. we finally find out what angel did to drusilla and thus find out how truly demented he was as angelus. it's one thing to know intellectually that he killed and tortured nameless, faceless people and another to have a particular case described to you in detail. buffy has to deal with the fact that angel has done some unutterably heinous things.

    12. i enjoy the use of the word "ninny".

    13. this is btvs's first real exploration of life's moral grey areas. the truth can be a terrible thing. you think you can handle it, but can you? what is good? what is bad? are there, in fact, any such concepts? not all "villains" are going to fit into the same mold. life isn't easy and life never becomes easy. the more you learn, the less you know for certain.

    • enigmaticagentscully says:

      6. willow in her pajama tee and fuzzy slippers while still wearing a face full of makeup is distracting to me. not that she shouldn't be wearing makeup, i'm just like, "don't forget to wash your face before bedtime!"

      Ha, this always kinda bugs me in TV shows. Usually it's when someone is first waking up at the start of a day and I'm just sitting there while they're asleep thinking…'Why is she wearing mascara in bed?'

      • cait0716 says:

        It's especially distracting because her makeup is so much darker than normal to make Angel look paler. I think the makeup artist was just having a bad day here

      • Seventh_Star says:

        it just takes you out of the story cos NO ONE looks like that when they wake up.

      • Jenny_M says:

        Lol yes and it's like REALLY HEAVY makeup, full on scarlet lips and everything. Just…what?

        • RoseFyre says:

          Yeah, it's so heavy that I don't think we saw Willow wearing anything like that during the day BEFORE she went to bed!

    • etherealclarity says:

      Oh my gosh, Willow with the heavy makeup, I had NEVER noticed that before but this time I watched it I couldn't NOT notice. That makeup seemed even more intense than what she would normally wear during the day! Naq npghnyyl vg frrzrq pybfre gb Inzc!Jvyybj znxrhc. Penml.

    • ladililn says:

      2. That is a super interesting thought that hadn't occurred to me! Thumbs up for noticing. 😀

      5. Jryy, abj V srry yvxr na vqvbg sbe tbvat ba va zl pbzzrag nobhg Punagreryyr naq ubj V jvfurq jr pbhyq'ir tbggra zber bs ure jvgu ab vqrn gung jr QVQ, ba Natry. Guvf vf jung V trg sbe arire jngpuvat gung fubj, uhu? Naq nsgre ybbxvat ba jvxvcrqvn naq svaqvat bhg gur gehr rkgrag bs ure punenpgre, guvf vf jung V trg sbe abg univat frra rirel rcvfbqr bs Ohssl. Jubbbbcf. Whfg vtaber zr, cyrnfr. KQ

      13. Extremely well put! *applauds*

      • Seventh_Star says:

        no need to be embarrassed! i hadn't seen all of angel until fairly recently, either. it's A LOT to get through, and it's never too late 🙂

  5. arctic_hare says:

    Playground at night, yeah, that's a nice creepy start. WHY IS THIS POOR KID ALL ALONE THERE? I WOULD BE SCARED ENOUGH BEFORE DRUSILLA EVEN SHOWED UP. Once she does show up? Fugeddaboutit, I'm outta here. Kid, I'd tell your mom to have you meet her somewhere else from now on.

    Giles and Jenny! <3

    Ugh, Xander, shut up. Her relationship with Angel is not your business, and how incredibly fucking insensitive is it to declare to Buffy's face that any behavior of Angel's that is HURTING HER makes YOU happy??? UGH. This is even more irritating after his "less of a friendship, more of a solid foundation for future bliss" comment to Larry in Halloween. It's obvious that Xander has not really accepted Buffy's rejection in Prophecy Girl and has instead decided to wait for her to stop dating all those other "jerks" and come around to him. Worse yet, he's actually being OPEN about it here. It's one thing if he wasn't yet completely over her by this time, that I'd understand. But this shitty Nice Guy behavior is something else entirely. Buffy does not have those feelings for you and they are not going to magically develop, and it is not cool for you to take pleasure in Angel causing her pain, especially not to her face. Deal with it and move on with your life, because waiting around for her to "see the light" about you is not going to happen and is a gross assumption on your part. And then he doesn't help by going on to be completely awful about Ford and unwelcoming to him purely on the basis that Ford is an old friend of Buffy's that she had a crush on in fifth grade. Nice job with the fat-phobic comment too, Xander. JFC.

    LOL OH GOD THAT SONG. xD I had forgotten that existed! Oh, Willow.




    HE KNOWS???

    <img src="; border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">

    Is… is that guy really wearing a shiny blue cape? LULZ.

    Ford, what are you… no really, what are you doing? You've got something shifty going on and I don't like it.

    <img src="; border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">

    Okay, I most definitely do not approve of Angel doing a background check on Ford out of jealousy (because wtf, even if I personally already know from that club scene that the guy is bad news, ANGEL is not privy to that information and is behaving pretty badly here, gut feeling or no). But I admit I laughed really hard at the "really honed my brooding skills" line.

    Willow is so adorably bad at keeping a secret.

    Hey, I LIKE Willow's thoughts, shut it, Xander. She is so cute.

    By far the best part of this club scene is Angel ranting about how these people know nothing about vampires, only to have a guy walk by dressed EXACTLY like him.

    "Or did we finally find a restaurant that delivers?" Oh Spike, you get the best lines.

    Ford, you have seen way too many movies.


    "Maybe I'm the one who should decide!" Damn right, Buffy! I'm so glad she said this cause, really, stfu Angel with this paternalistic garbage. How Buffy feels about you is her choice, not yours, and you have no right to try and make the choice for her, for ANY reason. Give her the facts and let her decide. He's ticking me off in this episode, I'm sick of him blowing hot and cold and switching between "oh, we shouldn't go out for coffee, one thing will lead to another" and being all into the relationship in Halloween and now back to wanting to protect her from her own feelings and lying to her, not to mention sneaking around digging up dirt on Ford behind her back. Buffy is right to be pissed, and I'm glad she called him out on his bullshit.


    • arctic_hare says:

      "Ours is a forbidden love." I love this line so much. <3


      I agree with Buffy here. What Ford is going through is horrible and I don't deny it. I think Buffy even feels a kinship with him over it, because she wasn't exactly thrilled with the idea of dying as a teenager either. But for her, that's where the similarities end, because of the stark difference in the choices they made when faced with that reality. Ford's situation is terrifying, and painful, and awful, both physically and emotionally, but it doesn't justify mass murder or sacrificing a friend.

      Not exactly what you expected, Princess Toadstool?

      I have to wonder why Ford is buried here in Sunnydale and where his parents have been in all of this. That's always bugged me.

      Buffy and Giles' conversation in the cemetery is one of my favorite scenes ever on this show. So much love.

      Weeelllll… sometimes, every once in a very long while, every day in a million days, when the wind stands fair and the Doctor comes to call, everybody lives.

      • tanbarkie says:

        Man, naming yourself after a mushroom is totally cool. I myself go by Puffball ALL THE TIME.

      • NB2000 says:


        Definitely fits the character to choose such a stupid name though. She clearly hasn't put much thought into becoming a vampire either.

      • beckaboomer says:


        Urr urr, V ybir gung zbzrag va gur frnfba guerr cerzvrer jura Ohssl rkcynvaf guvf uvynevgl gb "Yvyl," naq fur'f nyy rzoneenffrq.

      • notemily says:


    • enigmaticagentscully says:

      shut it, Xander

      This is a fairly accurate summary of my Buffy watching experience so far. Xander I want so much to like you, I really do!

      • knut_knut says:

        every time I start warming up to him he says or does something that just ruins it. I feel bad for Nicholas Brendon who is stuck playing a nasty character sans development (so far).

        • enigmaticagentscully says:

          I know he's just so cute and funny and loyal and self-deprecating and then he says something that just makes me hate him again. DAMN IT XANDER.

          • tanbarkie says:

            It's sort of funny how my experience is virtually identical to yours, just from the other direction – I keep seeing Xander do things that enrage me and make me want to hate him, but then he does something cute and funny and loyal and self-deprecating and my fucking heart melts. DAMN IT XANDER.

    • Shay_Guy says:

      What's got Lina baffled? Is she not used to seeing food? Does she usually not get a chance to see it before it goes into her mouth?

    • Bonnie says:

      Agreed on the Angel front. I sometimes think that maybe I'm being unfair to his character in the levels of annoyance it inspires in me, but then these rewatches remind me that, no, I'm not unfair, he really is that horrible. Plus, you're an adult (many times over!) who's emotionally blackmailing a 16-year-old, asking reassurance of her love before you tell her that there's something unsavoury about you, even though you basically offer her nothing in return but more emotional blackmail? Not cool. Poor Buffy.

      • robin_comments says:

        V nterr, vg'f ernyyl abg pbby. V srry yvxr Natry arire gehyl TEBJF HC hagvy ur qrirybcf erny, zrnavatshy sevraqfuvcf jvgu Pbeqryvn/Jrfyrl/Thaa… crbcyr jub pner nobhg uvz ohg frr uvf synjf, znxr gehfg fbzrguvat gung'f rnearq naq zrnavatshy, bsgra pnyy uvz ba uvf ohyyfuvg, naq fbzrgvzrf znxr uvz gnyx vg bhg. Juvpu V thrff znxrf frafr, orpnhfr vg'f qhovbhf ubj zhpu erny sevraqfuvc ur rkcrevraprq nf Yvnz naq nsgre gur fbhy ur'f ernyyl vfbyngrq sebz bgure crbcyr.

    • Shiyra says:

      The part where Willow comments on the meaning of that song, it reminds me of va gur ynfg rcvfbqr jura Jvyybj fnlf fbzrguvat yvxr "Vg'f n gbgny ybff bs frys pbageby, naq abg va n avpr, jubyrfbzr, "zl tveysevraq unf n cvreprq gbathr xvaq bs jnl,"" naq nsgre n srj zbzragf Qnja fnlf "BU! Cvreprq gbathr…tbg vg."

      • ladililn says:

        Un, V'q sbetbggra gung zbzrag! Lrg nabgure jnl gur jevgref bppnfvbanyyl hfrq Qnja nf n grrantr!Jvyybj2.0. KQ

  6. Mez says:

    Failure of Secret Identity Count:

    14 + 2 (Chantarelle and Diego) = 16

    …plus lots of other wannabe vampires, but as we've already established, I'm not counting them unless they have names and/or lines.

  7. Karen says:

    First a couple of light hearted and less important points: I died laughing when Buffy said, “LMAO. Sitting in my room listening to the Divynl’s song ‘I Touch Myself’”. And then Willow a few minutes later, “Oh! That’s what that song was about?” Also, that bit where Angel is talking abot how those groupies don’t know anything about real vampires, including how they dress, and then a guy walks back wearing the same thing as Angel is pretty priceless. Also, OMFG. XANDER, STOP BEING A JEALOUS DOUCHE OVER EVERY SINGLE GUY THAT COMES WITHIN A 5 FOOT RADIUS OF BUFFY.

    Amidst all the wonderful A-plot there’s a B-plot that intersects with the A-plot about Angel’s past. One of the hard truths that Buffy has to confront in this episode is Angel’s past. She knew he was a bad vampire at one point, but I think that seeing him with Dru and then later hearing about what he did to her forced Buffy to confront Angel’s past in a tangible way. Speaking of which, I think that Angel’s relationship to Dru is really compelling. Dru is a monster, but Angel couldn’t just stake her because he feels guilty for killing her family and torturing her into insanity, so even though they’re on different sides, he can’t kill her.

    Now to the A-plot: MAAAXXXX! IT’S MAX! You have to understand, Roswell was the obsession of my high school existence. So seeing Jason Behr in this episode was super exciting to me. Anyway, Billy is his character’s name and the moment where he reveals that he knows that Buffy is the Slayer was great. The first time I saw this episode, I gasped aloud. But then, dun dun duuuun. He’s a vampire groupie and he cuts a deal with Spike. I found his story really interesting. It makes sense that a teenager faced with death would seek out a way to live forever, and to Billy the choice between dying young and living forever as a vampire would seem obvious even at the cost of sacrificing his old friend. And I think that Buffy understands that too which is why it hurts her to stake him at the end. That scene in the club where Buffy tells Billy that he has a choice- not a good choice, but he still has a choice- is so heartbreaking. I mean, objectively it’s wrong to sacrifice Buffy and all those other people in the club just so that Billy won’t have to die, but it’s also easy to understand how he could be irrational about it. He’s bitter and angry at how unfair life is and the emotions just rang so true in that scene.

    Finally, that conversation that Buffy and Giles have in the graveyard at the end is just pure perfection.

    Giles: You mean life?
    Buffy: Yeah. Does it get easy?
    Giles: What do you want me to say?
    Buffy: Lie to me.
    Giles: Yes, it's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after.
    Buffy: Liar.

    Nothing IS simple anymore. Angel being a good vampire started to challenge Buffy’s black and white view of the world, and even though Billy tried to make himself out to be a pure villain, Buffy still felt sorry for him and understood his complex emotions. The truth is hard, and it was so much easier when things fell easily into good and bad, black and white. So Buffy asks Giles to lie to her and tell her that things are simple, but Buffy knows too much now and can only say, “liar”.

    Oh and Mark? I completely agree with this bit of your review: But seriously, shouldn’t they….hang out? I mean, we genuinely haven’t seen them spend more than one full night together?

    I think that the fact that Buffy and Angel don’t really seem to hang out and talk to each other much is why I can’t full on ship them. I mean, I get them in the context of the show because yeah, high school relationships can be like there. There are a lot of hormones and feelings involved, so idk. I think it makes sense that they are underdeveloped as an actual relationship outside of the romantic tragedy of him being a vampire and her being a Slayer? I think it fits for what the show is right now.

    • arctic_hare says:

      I have the same feelings on Buffy/Angel, yeah.

    • Dru says:

      MAAAAAAAAAXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX!!!!!!!! I actually watched this before I first watched Roswell, and no lie, I adored that show and Max Evans. I actually wrote a Buffyverse/Roswell crossover fanfic and signed petitions to beg UPN not to cancel the show after Season 3, that's how big a fangirl I was 😀

      And here is Jason Behr:

      <img src="; />

    • tanbarkie says:

      I can never really ship Buffy/Angel *because* theirs is such a high school relationship. It definitely nails what that particular type of relationship felt like for me – I know that the first time I said "I love you," it was WAY EARLIER than it should've been. And it was mostly because, to use a common phrase, I didn't know what love was. All I knew was that the feelings running through me felt like the most important thing in the history of the world, and it barely mattered that I had only ever really had a pretty piddling number of actual conversations with the other person.

      So Buffy/Angel rings very true to me, while also being the sort of relationship that I look at and, like the old person that I am, shake my head at sadly and mutter, "Oh, you kids."

      Short version: hormones is powerful stuff, yo.

      • Dru says:

        Buffy/Angel for me is a relationship that I supported (can't say "shipped" when I'm so indifferent to 1/2 the couple) mainly because I wanted Buffy to be happy. And when she was with Angel, it kind of seemed like she was?

        But yeah, a sad shake of the head was pretty much my reaction to them over a decade ago, and it's still my reaction now.

      • DreamRose311 says:

        I definitely agree with it being too much of a high school relationship here for it to be anyhing super serious, and that's how she can say she loves him, because she doesn't know too much better at this point.

        OHG V guvax vg gheaf vagb n erny eryngvbafuvc va frnfba 3 bapr gurl'ir orra guebhtu fghss. Fur fgvyy unf gur uvtu fpubby oyvaqrqarff bs abg ernyyl guvaxvat nobhg gur shgher bs gur eryngvbafuvc, ohg V guvax gurer'f rabhtu sbe vg gb npghnyyl or n erny ybir.

        • tanbarkie says:

          Bu lrnu, Frnfba 3 vf n jubyr qvssrerag guvat. Gurl'ir zbirq cnfg gur Gentvp Terng Ybir naq bagb fbzrguvat zber pbzcyrk naq vagrerfgvat (naq juvpu, hasbeghangryl, fbzrgvzrf irref vagb Obevat naq Ercrgvgvbhf).

        • DreamRose311 says:

          Oh, also re: hanging out more – I'm sure they see eachother more often than what we see, it's not like each episode always picks up the day after the previous one took place… Just a thought

        • MrsGillianO says:

          "Lbh'er abg sevraqf. Lbh'yy arire or sevraqf" Bu Fcvxr, fb evtug gurer. Fb zhpu vafvtug.

    • Seventh_Star says:

      he was soooooo dreamy as max!

    • ladililn says:

      I think it makes sense that they are underdeveloped as an actual relationship outside of the romantic tragedy of him being a vampire and her being a Slayer?

      This. Exactly. In fact, between this and your comments on the Drusilla & Angel relationship, your comment was pretty much everything I wanted to say but said much much better. I'll take this as a hint from the universe and just shut up in the future. XD

    • Shiyra says:

      " Oh and Mark? I completely agree with this bit of your review: But seriously, shouldn’t they….hang out? I mean, we genuinely haven’t seen them spend more than one full night together? "

      When I started watching this show I was about 14 or 15 and I was a huge fan of Angel and Buffy's relationship and thought it was so great. But I recently re-watched the entire series and now it seems totally lame and immature (Angel, haven't you matured at all in your long lifetime?). So I guess it is like a relationship that one would have in high school, and therefore totally believable to me (except that someone as old as Angel should not be attracted to a 16 year old, but again this is something that never bothered me when I was a high-schooler). I was totally head over heals for my boyfriend when in high school, but now I look back and see how lame our relationship was and even though it was intense and passionate, it really was not functional. But I still view it as a necessary experience for both of us to learn and grow from.

    • Danielle says:

      I like to think that the there is some off screen hanging out between Buffy/Angel offscreen. Like he helps her on her patrols. Just like I think Buffy/Willow/Xander hang out all the time offscreen. In my head I like to think these characters have at least some nice quiet periods when they aren't battling the forces of evil.

      • RoseFyre says:

        Yeah, exactly. Based on the time periods, I generally assume that shows in general happen on their airing dates (and the week around them) unless there's a good reason not to – which, sometimes, is the case, especially at season finales, when there's too much happening, and clearly that stuff wouldn't be a week apart. So there's often a week here, three weeks there – where nothing happens at all.

    • @liliaeth says:

      It is interesting though that Spike did keep his word to Ford. I mean, sure, Ford got staked right after he crawled out of his grave, but Spike did turn him into a vampire like Ford asked of him….

      In fact, if I well remember, of all the characters in this ep, he's one of, if not the only character that doesn't lie.

      Also utterly agreed on Buffy/Angel. I can see why Buffy says she loves Angel. She's a teenager, it's far easier for a teenage girl to think that her crush is true love, than it would be for someone who actually understands what love is. But in reality, they don't have a relationship. Uryy, rira yngre ba jura jr frr gurz fcraqvat zber gvzr gbtrgure, nyy gurl qb vf znxr bhg. Gurl qba'g npghnyyl gnyx be xabj bar nabgure.

    • lyvanna says:

      Completely agree on the B/A thing. Though I never had a relationship at that age I had crushes on people and at the time thought they were love.

      Naq vg'f fnq ernyyl orpnhfr gur snyybhg sebz gur Ohssl/Natry eryngvbafuvc zrnaf gung Ohssl unf unq ceboyrzf jvgu orvat bcra jvgu ybir rire nsgre. Vg'f fbeg bs shaal-fnq gung Znex jnf fhecevfrq gung Ohssl pnzr bhg jvgu gung fb dhvpxyl orpnhfr bs gur gehfg natyr…. jnvg hagvy ur frrf jung'f pbzvat.

  8. Sophi says:

    Mark, we've all been there when your date turns out to be a centuries old vampire.

    Statistically, 42.8% of all dates ever have been undead. Never forget, always be aware of the facts, never go out without a stake. And/or breath mints.

  9. hpfish13 says:

    This episode is just amazing. It works on so many layers, and interweaves the back-story and the current events so well.

    Buffy’s reaction to Angel’s past is perfect, she’s so torn, because she knew he was bad, but now she is discovering how awful he really was, and is having to decide if she can deal with it despite the fact that he’s changed.

    The people wanting to be vampires plot is even more complicated than first meets the eye. The audience is in utter disbelief, and then they mingle in some understanding. But ultimately you realize, as Buffy does, that they are in no way getting something better by becoming vampires, it is not worth it.

    Then there are the quotes. So many good ones in this episode.

    This one kind of sums up the concept of the series

    Giles: Yes. It's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true. The bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies and… everybody lives happily ever after.
    Buffy: Liar.

    This one, which I could totally see Mark ruminating on. Mark, your random asides are one of my favorite things!

    Willow Rosenberg: Sore thumbs. Do they stick out? I mean, have you ever seen a thumb and gone 'wow, that baby is sore'?
    Xander Harris: You have too many thoughts.

    And then this moment just cracks me up laughing.

    Angel: These people don't know anything about vampires: What they are, how they live, how they dress…
    [a guy cuts through them dressed exactly like Angel]

    • Karen says:

      I also think that the people wanting to be vampires plot works well on a meta level because really that plot is about how people romanticize vampire which is something that the audience could be falling into. I mean, there's Angel being the good guy broody vampire and Spike being the snarky bad boy. But this episode is calling attention to that and being like "nope, vampires are monsters."

  10. misterbernie says:

    Ultimately, this is not at the top of my rewatch list for reasons, but it does contain some gems, like the Divinyls joke and the scene in Willows bedroom (which proves to me that the writers suck at giving dialogue with chemistry to Angel and Buffy, but manage to establish him as an actual character with every other person on the show).

    a really gross attempt to say that Drusilla is in love with the man who tortured her
    Well, AS BUFFY SAID IN THIS VERY EPISODE, it's not you anymore, it's a demon taking over your body. So there's that.

    German title time: Todessehnsucht, ‘Longing for Death’. Again a bit spoilery.

    Also, an update on the BtVS fen commenting:
    <img src=""&gt;
    …go us!

    • misterbernie says:

      Oh, and as for the saying "I love you" thing? NO THAT IS NOT NORMAL AT THIS POINT
      That is hormonal high school crap.
      …or ~*~TV love~*~, take your pick.

      • arctic_hare says:

        Little of column a, little of column b? It's the perfect melodramatic convergence of the two!

        • misterbernie says:

          Naq fbba gung qenzn funyy pbzr or va shyy sbepr *ehof unaqf rivyyl va Vaabprapr nagvpvcngvba*

          • tanbarkie says:


            Gurer jvyy or fbzr qryvpvbhf urnq rkcybfvbaf ba gung tybevbhf qnl. Zvar jvyy or bar bs gurz, nf vg nyjnlf shpxvat vf jura V trg gb gubfr rcvfbqrf.

            QNZA LBH JURQBA

      • Definitely hormonal high school crap… which I think Whedon was going for. I don't have personal experience with that, but I remember when my sister started dating a guy after they met once, they dated for about a week-10 days and she cried HARD after they broke up….

        I don't understand it, but it's definitely realistic…

        • misterbernie says:

          I do understand it, while I didn't have a serious relationship until well after high school, I did crush pretty hard on some guys and would've been all too eager with the L word.

          God, I was an idiot. /Blanche voice

          • Not an idiot… just a teenager, which, I suppose, means you were probably an idiot.

            But it sounds like you grew out of it…. many do not… so be proud 🙂

            • misterbernie says:

              Ahahaha, er, well, actually, a lot of the first-few-serious-relationships ~*~drama~*~ was just postponed to the past couple of years 😛

              • keywords being "first-few-serious-relationships." I believe that everybody gets to make mistakes and do stupid things their first few times around…

                The way I'm going, I'm probably not gonna make any of those stupid mistakes until I'm well into my 30's. DAMN MY EXTREMELY SLOW SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT!

                • misterbernie says:

                  The stupid mistakes do lend themselves to sitting in your room and listening to a lot of Alanis Morissette because Alanis understands all your pain. So there's that.

                  • cait0716 says:

                    Just don't shave your legs while listening to Jagged Little Pill right after you get dumped. I still have a scar from that one

                    But for understanding pain, yes. So much angsty listening to Alanis in high school.

      • Brett says:

        you assume that every interaction between buffy and angel is documented. There are times inbetween shows, this isnt 24.

        • misterbernie says:

          It would be nice if their interactions actually indicated that, but from what we're given, I cannot imagine them actually interacting outside the episodes, which I can for pretty much every other social group on the show.

          Uvagf gb gurz qbvat fghss bhgfvqr gur rcvfbqrf qbrfa'g pbzr hagvy yngre (Jung nobhg gung sver qrzba arfg va gur pnir ol gur ornpu?) naq vg vfa'g hagvy Jung'f Zl Yvar? gung V trg n frafr bs gurz npghnyyl qbvat qngr-l fghss.

          • ladililn says:

            Naq ol gur gvzr gurl npghnyyl QB qb qngvat fghss va JZY–anzryl, gur vpr fxngvat qngr–vg srryf uvynevbhfyl bhg bs cynpr gb zr. V trg gung vg'f fhccbfrq gb or gung jnl, v.r. gurve svefg erny npghny qngr-yvxr qngr, ohg vg whfg frrzf fb vapbatehbhf sbe gurz gb qb nalguvat gbtrgure gung'f abg fgnevat vagb rnpu bguref' rlrf/znxvat bhg/fgngvat bhg ybhq gur ebznagvp gentrql bs gurve eryngvbafuvc/qbvat fynl-l fghss. Jrveq!

        • tanbarkie says:

          V yvxr gb guvax gung nyy gurve rkgen serr gvzr vf fcrag qbvat jung Knaqre frrf gurz qbvat va "Gur Mrccb."

    • Raenef_the_5th says:

      Awesome stats!

    • ladililn says:

      Such a cool graph! Why the sudden spike (haha) in comments around episode…what, eight? nine? I wonder?

    • Dru says:

      to be fair, the BSG fandom was a small one to begin with, and it took a body blow from people DEVASTATED and in complete hatred of the way it ended.

      Buffy has more fen to begin with, and a still-continuing canon (via comics) and not as many disappointed ex-fans who swore off it/don't want to relive the watching experience through someone else's eyes.

      • misterbernie says:

        I have no idea about the BSG fandom because I was never in it; I just picked it and AtLA as they're both long-running ones, and both are US shows so they follow a standard season format* (Doctor Who would have most comparison episodes, but so far I've not been up to wading through 100+ episodes to look for comment numbers).

        *That almost sounded like I'm being scientific!

        • RoseFyre says:

          Do Who when you get bored! I'd love to see the comparison, because there are very strong fanbases for both shows.

      • RoseFyre says:

        Though not everyone counts the comics as canon. I know that I can't view them quite the same way I view the TV show itself, though they're still more canon than, like, fanfiction.

      • @liliaeth says:

        Gur pbzvpf ner ubeevslvatyl onq gubhtu.

        V hfrq gb guvax gung gurer jnf abguvat va gur jbeyq gung pbhyq znxr zr ungr Ohssl, lrg gur pbzvpf znantrq gb qb vg naljnl. Jung gurl qvq gb Natry vf abguvat fubeg bs pevzvany.

        • Dru says:

          Yeah, but at least they didn't fuck up the show itself a la BSG (I should say frak up). And the comics, it's a situation where if you hate them there's still the tv show – in any case, it's the show's fans who are buying the comics.

          (personally, for me Buffyverse canon ends with Season 7, I don't really like the comics' art style.)

    • claretstock says:

      -a really gross attempt to say that Drusilla is in love with the man who tortured her –
      "Well, AS BUFFY SAID IN THIS VERY EPISODE, it's not you anymore, it's a demon taking over your body. So there's that. "

      I completely agree with this. I'd even go so far as to say that if an actual VAMPIRE was to fall in love with another, it seems fitting that it would be with another vampire who has proved himself to be horrifically cruel- the whole Demon thing in the body just has the body's memories, but it is still a demon, which supposedly loves chaos and inflicting pain. Does that sound plausible?

      Also there is the narcissism factor, falling in love with the demon that sired you would be like falling in love with part of yourself, because didn't they say in one of the first few episodes that the first vampires came from a demon that bit a person and part the the demon continued life in the human's body?

      I might just be getting too nerdy about this.

      • misterbernie says:

        It does sound plausible.

        Bs pbhefr gur jubyr vffhr trgf ubeevoyl zhqqyrq yngre ba, er: whfg ubj zhpu n inzcver vf qrsvarq ol gur uhzna gurl jrer, ohg V'q fnl vg fgvyy ubyqf rira vs n inzcver vf n qrzbavp pbagvahngvba bs gur uhzna.

        • @liliaeth says:

          V guvax vg'f zber n pnfr gung gung gur jngpuref ner jebat.

          Gurl nera'g inzcverf, fb gurl qba'g xabj ubj zhpu bs gur crefba vf yrsg va gur inzcver. Nf Natry znxrf vg pyrne yngre, jub lbh ner nf n inzcver vf qrsvarq ol jubz lbh jrer nf n crefba.

    • MrsGillianO says:

      Lbhe tencuf ner njrfbzr. Naq jr unir rcvfbqrf gb pbzr juvpu jvyy arrq lbh gb rkgraq gur nkvf hcjneqf!

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      "a really gross attempt to say that Drusilla is in love with the man who tortured her
      Well, AS BUFFY SAID IN THIS VERY EPISODE, it's not you anymore, it's a demon taking over your body. So there's that. "

      Except… not. If Drusilla were nothing but a demon who took human Drusilla's memories, why is she mentally ill? Angel drove the human Drusilla insane, BEFORE he turned her into a vampire.

      And then there's that thing with Angel saying he killed HIS parents, and Angel saying he killed HER (Drusilla's) family and drove HER insane, and Drusilla talking about him killing HER family and tormenting HER.

      Just who's more likely to be right – the vampires, or Buffy, who would know about what happens with one is sired…how? From what she heard from Giles, who heard it from other Watchers, who know about it… how? Was any of them ever sired?

      There's a good reason why this particular bit of 'information' is given to us by Buffy in an episode called Lie to Me, which ends with her wanting to hear comforting lies that make everything so simple (like, say, slaying vampires – while telling yourself they have nothing to do with the humans they once were – no, sir.*

      **sebz Qbccrytnatynaq:

      Jvyybj: (nccnyyrq) Vg'f ubeevoyr! Gung'f zr nf n inzcver? (Natry pybfrf
      gur qbbe) V'z fb rivy naq… fxnaxl. (nfvqr gb Ohssl, jbeevrq) Naq V
      guvax V'z xvaqn tnl.

      Ohssl: (ernffhevatyl) Jvyybj, whfg erzrzore, n inzcver'f crefbanyvgl
      unf abguvat gb qb jvgu gur crefba vg jnf.

      Natry: (jvgubhg guvaxvat) Jryy, npghnyyl… (trgf n ybbx sebz Ohssl)
      Gung'f n tbbq cbvag.

      Rira vs jr oryvrir gung Yvnz jnf zrnag gb unir abguvat gb qb jvgu Natry naq Jvyyvnz abguvat gb qb jvgu Fcvxr naq Qehfvyyn jnfa'g Qehfvyyn, naq nyy gur synfuonpxf jr jngpurq jrer ernyyl abg nobhg gubfr punenpgref… vg'f vzcbffvoyr gb znxr nal frafr bhg bs Qneyn'f fgbel hayrff fur'f nyjnlf Qneyn, gur fnzr crefba, jurgure uhzna, inzcver 1.0, uhzna 2.0, be inzcver 2.0.


      As for Drusilla's feelings for Angel – I wouldn't say she's "in love" with him, but their relationship is very complex. He tortured her when she was human, but he is also her maker as a vampire and she didn't have any human family anymore and was reborn as a different kind of person (not literally another person – a different person, with completely different moral values, but marked by her history of abuse and by her insanity). And she's also messing with his mind in this scene, because she knows how to torture him with guilt. Drusilla is a very complicated character – V pna'g jnvg sbe Znex gb trg gb Jung'f Zl Yvar 1/2 naq Fhecevfr/Vaabprapr.


      • Nos says:

        V jvyy sberire snajnax gung juvyr zbfg inzcverf ybfr jub gurl jrer jura gurl jrer ghearq, sbe fbzr ernfba, bhe Nerhyvhf…Nehryvbhf? vg'f orra jnl gbb ybat fvapr V unq gb fcryy gung, fb arirezvaq, lbh trg jung V nz fnlvat, bhe inzcverf ner qvssrerag. Vg'f yvxr gur qrzba trgf…jrnxre gur shegure qbja gur yvar jr trg. Qneyn naq Natryhf nera'g arneyl ner uhzna nf Fcvxr naq Qeh, naq boivbhfyl Fcvxr vf gur 'jrveqrfg' bs nyy gur inzcf. Jr pbhyq jevgr rffnlf ba ubj uhzna ur vf, rira jura ur jnf rivy. Gur qhqr gung unq uvf bja urneg erzbirq…(ur jnf n zrzore evtug?) Gung thl gung Natry ghearq ba gur fho, pnzr onpx ybbxvat sbe qrngu onfvpnyyl… Urpx, rira gur obbxvfu thl gung jbexf sbe Fcvxr va gur arkg pbhcyr bs rcvfbqrf (sbetrg uvf anzr, vg jnf vzcyvrq gung bar bs gurz znqr uvz, evtug?) jnf jnl zber uhzna guna gur nirentr inzc. Znlor fbzrguvat oebxr va gurve yvar nebhaq gur gvzr gung Qneyn jnf fverq.

        • @Ivana2804 says:

          Vafgrnq bs snajnaxvat sne-srgpurq zlgubybtvpny gurbevrf, V cersre gb whfg frr rirel inzcver nf na vaqvivqhny, jub ernpgf qvssreragyl gb orvat 'qrzbavmrq' naq fgevccrq bs n fbhy. V guvax Qneyn, Natryhf, Fcvxr, Unezbal, Qnygba, Ynjfba, rgp. ner nyy rdhnyyl "uhzna", ohg "uhzna" qbrfa'g zrna "tbbq" be "nssrpgvbangr". Uhznaf pna or ernyyl rivy, naq, sbe vafgnapr, Xenyvx jnf nyernql n cflpub frevny xvyyre, fb gur bayl punatr jnf cebonoyl gung ur orpnzr n fhcrecbjrerq vzzbegny frevny xvyyre. Jung gurl jrer nf uhznaf vasbezf rirelguvat gurl orpbzr nf inzcverf, nf Qneyn fnvq.

          Sbe vafgnapr, Jvyyvnz ybirq uvf zbgure irel graqreyl naq gbbx pner bs ure, naq ur jnf n ebznagvp naq n cbrg. Yvnz qvq ybir uvf fvfgre ohg ur jnf nyernql shyy bs natre naq erfragzrag ng uvf sngure, naq vg ghearq vagb ungr naq n qrfver sbe eriratr gur zbzrag ur orpnzr n inzcver. Qneyn qvqa'g unir nalbar nf n uhzna, jr fur unq ab snzvyl naq unq gb fhccbeg urefrys; nf n cebfgvghgr fur jnf pbafvqrerq n "fvaare" naq na bhgpnfg qrfcvgr univat n avpr ubhfr naq freinagf; fur jnf hfrq gb gur snpg gung rirelbar whfg jnagrq gb hfr ure sbe frk naq fur jnf hfvat jung fur unq gb trg zbarl bhg bs zra. Abobql ernyyl ybirq be pnerq nobhg ure naq fur qvqa'g ybir be pner nobhg nalbar (fur nqzvgf gur sbezre va Gur Gevny naq gur ynggre va Yhyynol). Vg'f abg fhecevfvat gung fur jnf sne zber plavpny naq pbyq nf n inzcver.

    • hassibah says:

      "the writers suck at giving dialogue with chemistry to Angel and Buffy, but manage to establish him as an actual character with every other person on the show)"

      Ugh so true. Also they're reasonably not terrible at writing non-Bangel relationships either…though that varies a lot of course.

    • Smurphy says:

      "(which proves to me that the writers suck at giving dialogue with chemistry to Angel and Buffy, but manage to establish him as an actual character with every other person on the show)." – OMG so true.

      and… that's awesome. just. yes.

  11. ladililn says:

    I love this episode. 😀 I think this season I love the episodes that tie into the larger season arc–yay for Spike and Dru!–but am not so big on the stand-alones, with a few exceptions.

    Anyway. Bullet points! (Listses, precious, we likes our listses. XD)

    ~ It's interesting that in the first scene with Angel and Dru he's actually offering her a chance to leave. Even though he's a good guy now and she and Spike are still evil, even though last season he himself staked Darla–it seems to indicate that he still cares about her (and possibly Spike) to an extent. I mean, it's a very stupid thing to do, as he knows they won't stop killing people if he lets them go, but it adds another dimension to Angel's character, and I like that.

    ~ Mark, I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that even if none of us has ever dated a centuries-old vampire (here I go assuming things :P), we can still relate to what Buffy's feeling in this episode. I think that's one thing BtvS does so well: use the supernatural as metaphors for things we all go through–high school, growing up, relationships, etc.–that work at both levels.

    ~ Totally agree on Xander's "I am in love with Buffy and will be jealous and rude and dislike everyone she comes into contact with ever" has progressed to a point where it's just spectacularly lazy writing. There's a point at which you get angry at the character and then there's a point you get angry at the writer, and I've definitely hit that second point. Show us something different, ffs!

    ~ You know, for some reason I really like the character of Chanterelle here. I wish there was more focus on her; I feel like she was just toeing the line between her own mini character-arc and just existing as an illustration of what was going on. I think the actress, whoever she is, played it very well, though.

    ~ Jittery!Willow is adorable. That is all.

    ~ Pagers! Oh my god, the nineties, eh?

    ~ Okay, I love funny Angel moments, even when it's not Angel himself trying to be funny (because obviously that would distract from the brooding). That moment when the guy walks by in Angel's same outfit? Pure gold.

    ~ I wonder what exactly an angry mob could do to a vampire to weaken but not kill it? Was it a vampire-aware angry mob, or an angry mob that was already angry and mobbish that Drusilla just happened to wander into? Am I thinking too much about this? Probably!

    ~ Also funny: vampire breaks into school, steals book. Look out, we got a badass over here!

    ~ More random Spike love! <3 He is such a great villain.

    ~ Okay, the scene where Angel tells Buffy what he did to Drusilla always gives me chills. Talk about going to a surprisingly dark place, show. It's such a horrifying thing, and luckily I think David Boreanaz's acting has gotten much LESS horrifying than it needs to be, and he totally sells Angel's pathos for me there. Well done! Also creepy.

    ~ "Lbh qvr, naq n qrzba frgf hc fubc va lbhe byq ubhfr, naq vg jnyxf, naq vg gnyxf, naq vg erzrzoref lbhe yvsr, ohg vg'f abg lbh."

    Zna, V unir ARIRE orra noyr gb svther bhg ubj zhpu V oryvrir guvf. Gur fubj frrzf fb vapbafvfgrag jvgu guvf vqrn. Gung'f jung jr'er gbyq va gur svefg rcvfbqr er: Wrffr. Vg'f fhccbfrqyl jung znxrf Natry sbetvinoyr naq Natryhf abg–rkprcg V fhccbfr abg, fvapr vg'f abg yvxr Yvnz vf Natry. Fb Yvnz naq Natryhf ner zber nyvxr va crefbanyvgl, ohg gurl ner nccneragyl gjb qvssrerag orvatf, juvyr Natry vf whfg Natryhf jvgu n fbhy. 'Pnhfr bgurejvfr ur jbhyqa'g srry gur thvyg, orpnhfr vg jnfa'g UVZ jub qvq nyy gubfr greevoyr guvatf. Fb jul vf ur gerngrq nf gubhtu abar bs vg vf uvf snhyg? Orpnhfr bs gur fbhy guvat. Naaaaq abj zl urnq uhegf.

    Jvgu Natry, gubhtu, lbh unir guerr qvfgvapg crbcyr: Yvnz, Natryhf, Natry. Ohg ybbx ng Fcvxr. V arire tbg gur vzcerffvba gung inzcver!Fcvxr jnf n qvssrerag crefba sebz uhzna!Jvyyvnz, whfg…genafsbezrq. Naq fbhyrq!Fcvxr jnf onfvpnyyl whfg n avpre irefvba bs gur fnzr thl. Naq naq naq

    *fvtu* Onfvpnyyl, Ohssl jevgref arrqrq gb qb n orggre wbo bs rkcynvavat naq pynevslvat naq orvat pbafvfgrag jvgu guvf "n inzcver vf onfvpnyyl whfg n qrzba cbfrffvat n uhzna obql naq abg gur uhzna gurfryirf" pbaprcg orpnhfr V'ir arire orra noyr gb znxr vg fvg dhvgr evtug va zl oenva.

    ~ Brilliant Buffy, creating a hostage situation with Spike and Drusilla instead of trying to fight each individual vampire. (Although even with her awesome Slayer powers, I'm not sure I believe that leap to the upper floor.) And what interesting characters we have set up as villains here that it actually works. Villains who love–anybody else getting Malfoy family vibes? 😉

    ~ I love, love, love the last scene. (Although I wonder why Spike was convinced to make Ford a vampire, but whatever.) "Lie to me"/Gile's beautiful little monologue of blatant lies/"Liar". It's just so…good. The writing on this show gets better and better, which is especially amazing considering it was great to begin with.

    • Karen says:

      ~ It's interesting that in the first scene with Angel and Dru he's actually offering her a chance to leave. Even though he's a good guy now and she and Spike are still evil, even though last season he himself staked Darla–it seems to indicate that he still cares about her (and possibly Spike) to an extent. I mean, it's a very stupid thing to do, as he knows they won't stop killing people if he lets them go, but it adds another dimension to Angel's character, and I like that.
      I think the reason Angel gave Dru a chance to leave is because he feels guilty. He did some horrible things to Dru when he was Angelus and because of that, I think he can't bring himself to stake her too.

      • tanbarkie says:

        Of course he feels guilty. Feeling guilty is what Angel DOES. 😀

        • ladililn says:

          Angel's schedule: nine to five: brood. Five to six: visit Buffy. Try to smile. Six to nine: brood.

          • LadyPeyton says:

            You forgot the period between 6:15 and 6:30 when he sulks and the time between 8:45 and 10:20 when he mopes.

            • ladililn says:

              Unun, V whfg ybbxrq hc flabalzf sbe "zbcr" fb V pbhyq pbagvahr guvf, jura V sbhaq gur zhpu-shaavre nagbalzf: "or ryngrq, or unccl". Hu bu. Guvf vf jul Natry fubhyq arire unir qrivngrq sebz uvf irel frg fpurqhyr…

      • ladililn says:

        That's a good point, actually. Makes much more sense, especially in the context of the episode. (Here's the part where I feel stupid for not picking up on it. XD)

    • ladililn says:

      More! (oh god I am long-winded today I swear I'm not usually like this

      ~ Re: Angel and Buffy and the "L" word. This is pretty much how I feel about their whole relationship–I mean, see "Angel", where I was baffled that Buffy was already as invested as she was demonstrating herself to be upon finding out that he was a vampire. But I think that might be intentional on the part of the writers. To us as the viewer it's all "Really? You love him already? Based on WHAT?" and "Your relationship is very confusing to me" and "Are they even actually DATING?" But it's supposed to be a portrayal of first love, of that headstrong rush of emotions you might feel in a high school relationship, where (to use the cliche) everything feels like the end of the world. I can't really relate to this because the one relationship I had in high school was a hilarious failure, but I think it might be accurate for the type of relationship they're trying to portray, even if it seems strange and fast-paced to us as viewers.

      ~ Okay, the part Buffy manages to save everybody except Ford? Super fascinating in a morally-ambiguous sort of way. I know it was implied that there was no way she could have saved him, but…is that really true? Surely somebody could have picked him up in their mass exodus, or Buffy could have tried to fight through and drag him out, or…I don't know, but it seems like she gave up on saving him pretty quick, and that was okay because he was the villain of the episode. Or maybe it wasn't. I don't know. I'm conflicted, and I'm not entirely sure if that's as a result of good writing or bad.

      • hpfish13 says:

        To quote the movie 17 Again (which I watched last night), "When you're young everything feels like the end of the world. But it's not."

        Sha pbaarpgvba: Va gung fprar ur'f gnyxvat gb Zvpuryyr Genpugraoret, jub, rvtug lrnef yngre, vf fgvyy cynlvat n grrantre.

        • ladililn says:

          Unun, njrfbzr pbaarpgvba! Ohg jnag gb urne fbzrguvat rira orggre? Ovnapn Ynjfba, jub cynlf Xraqen, vf FGVYY cynlvat n grrantre (bppnfvbanyyl) ba gur fubj Cerggl Yvggyr Yvnef. Ng yrnfg ZG jnf 14 jura fur fgnegrq cynlvat Qnja va f5. Ovnapn Ynjfba jnf 18 jura fur cynlrq Xraqen va frnfba GJB, naq fur vf FGVYY PHEERAGYL CYNLVAT N GRRANTRE. Qnjfba pnfgvat ng vgf svarfg.

          • LadyPeyton says:

            I was beside myself when I saw that. I could not bring myself to believe it was the same person.

      • notemily says:

        Well, Buffy did imply she was in love with him way back in "Angel." "How could you love an umpire?" etc.

        • ladililn says:

          Okay, I thought I remembered that. But then I thought I might be totally wrong, so I changed it to "how much she was invested". But apparently, I was right! Which really only strengthens my point. XD

    • Zoli says:

      Nterrq ba gur ynpx bs pbafvfgrapl. Vg'f fbeg bs gur fnzr ceboyrz jvgu qrzbaf. Bevtvanyyl gurl ner vagebqhprq nf pbzcyrgryl rivy, znyvpvbhf zbafgref, ohg gura jr fgneg trggvat nyy xvaqf bs sevraqyl be abaguerngravat qrzbaf naq rira unys-qrzbaf yvxr Qblyr va Natry jub'f whfg n abezny thl, rkprcg ur pna ghea nyy fcvxl jura arprffnel.

      V haqrefgnaq gung pbaprcgf ribyir, rfcrpvnyyl bire frira lrnef bs svyzznxvat, ohg vg frrzf yvxr gur fubj raqf hc ergpbaavat n ybg bs guvatf jura gur bevtvany pbaprcg whfg qvqa'g jbex.

      • ladililn says:

        Lrf, guvf. V'ir unq gur fnzr gubhtugf ba qrzbaf nf jryy. (Naq gura gurer'f Naln. V nyjnlf gubhtug vg jnf vagrerfgvat va yngre frnfbaf gung fur jnf vaqhpgrq fb shyyl vagb gur tebhc qrfcvgr ure cnfg nf n iratrnapr qrzba jura fur cerfhznoyl qvq fbzr cerggl njshy guvatf, jurernf Fcvxr jnf xrcg ng n qvfgnapr rira jura puvccrq naq jvyyvat gb uryc, sbe gur fnzr ernfba. Qvfpbaarpg!)

        • James says:

          Ohg Naln vf uhzna. Vg'f gur fnzr xvaq bs qvfgvapgvba gurl znxr orgjrra Natry naq Natryhf. Fcvxr'f fgvyy n inzcver jvgubhg n fbhy. Ur jbhyq or ovgvat crbcyr vs ur pbhyq.

          • Ellie says:

            V ybir Naln ohg V svaq gur jnl gur jevgref qrny jvgu ure gb or ceboyrzngvp. Hayvxr Natry, fur arire rkcerffrq erzbefr bire ure cnfg pevzrf hagvy Frysyrff, ng juvpu cbvag fur jnf n qrzba naq bfgrafvoyl vapncnoyr bs vg. Gur bayl pbapyhfvba V pna qenj vf gung fur nyjnlf unq n fbhy, rira nf n qrzba, naq fur whfg trahvaryl arire oryvrirq jung fur qvq jnf jebat hagvy gung cbvag. Juvpu vf vagrerfgvat, ohg V’z abg fher gur jevgref zrnag zr gb pbzr gb gung pbapyhfvba be rira ernyyl gubhtug nobhg vg.

      • LadyPeyton says:

        It's only inconsistent if you take point of view out of it. The Watchers are, of course, going to believe one thing. It's a mistake to take that POV and consider it an unbiased universal truth.

      • @liliaeth says:

        V jbhyqa'g pnyy gung n ergpba, whfg yrneavat zber nobhg gur jbeyq guna jung lbh'ir frra orsber. Erzrzore, gur guvat nobhg nyy qrzbaf naq fhpu orvat rivy pbzrf bapr ntnva, sebz gur Jngpuref. Jub unir n irel tbbq ernfba gb jnag gurve Fynlref gb oryvrir guvf, orpnhfr vg znxrf vg rnfvre gb trg grrantr tveyf gb xvyy gurz. Bapr lbh fgneg guvaxvat gung gurfr orvatf zvtug unir snzvyvrf naq ybirq barf, gung gurl zvtug abg or rivy, vg'f zhpu uneqre gb gnxr gurz bhg.

    • cait0716 says:

      ~ I wonder what exactly an angry mob could do to a vampire to weaken but not kill it? Was it a vampire-aware angry mob, or an angry mob that was already angry and mobbish that Drusilla just happened to wander into?

      Gurer'f n fgbel va gur pbzvp obbx Gnyrf bs gur Inzcverf gung qrnyf jvgu jung unccrarq gb Qeh va Centhr gung jrnxrarq ure fb zhpu.

      • Zoli says:

        Could you elaborate the story in Rot13? I'm not terribly interested in tracking down any of the comics, but I'm interested to learn some of the details.

        • cait0716 says:

          It'll have to wait until I get home. I'll try to post later tonight (unless someone beats me to it)

        • cait0716 says:

          I think I got this right. Others can correct me if they see need.

          Bxnl, gur pbzvp vf n yvggyr fgenatr. Onfvpnyyl, guvf zbo nggnpxrq Fcvxr naq Qeh va Centhr naq frcnengrq gurz orpnhfr fbzr qhqr jnagrq gb gbegher Qeh. Vg jnf n ovg bs n zlfgvpny gbegher. Ur fgenccrq ure vagb bar bs gubfr punvef jvgu fcvxrf va gur frng naq onpx naq nezf naq qebir gurz vagb ure. Naq ur hfrq na nzhyrg fgbar guvatl gb znxr gur cnva bs vg zber creznarag. Fcvxr znantrf gb erfphr ure, ohg gur rssrpgf bs gur gbegher fgnl jvgu ure orpnhfr bs gur zntvp ur hfrq.

          • ladililn says:

            Jryy, V thrff gung znxrf frafr. Cheryl culfvpny gbegher cebonoyl jbhyqa'g jrnxra n inzcver sbe n fhfgnvarq nzbhag bs gvzr, nygubhtu V qba'g ernyyl frr ubj gur zbo pbzrf vagb ure jrnxravat (nf va, vg frrzf yvxr n ovg bs n ergpba. Gur zbo jnf xvaq bs na vaqverpg pnhfr gb Qeh orvat gbegherq, jurernf gur fubj znqr vg frrz yvxr gurl jrer gur barf jub jrnxrarq ure).

            • cait0716 says:

              Vg jnf cebonoyl n fybccl ergpba. Be lbh pbhyq ernq vg sebz Fcvxr'f cbvag bs ivrj. Gur zbo nggnpxrq Fcvxr naq nyzbfg xvyyrq uvz. Gurl frcnengrq uvz sebz Qehfvyyn naq znqr vg fb ur pbhyqa'g erfphr ure orsber gur gbegher fgnegrq. Sebz Fcvxr'f cbi, gur zbo vf gb oynzr.

      • tanbarkie says:

        Maybe they burned her with a veeeeeeery small fire.

    • hassibah says:

      I wasn't totally sure that Angel cared for Dru, as much as I think he might feel like he at least owed her a chance to escape, considering he put her through hell for a damn long time and that affected her permanently.

    • lurknomore says:

      V nterr gung vg vf cerggl vapbafvfgrag; Natryhf naq Inzc!Jvyybj ner oryvrinoyl fbhyyrff zbafgref; Fcvxr naq Unezbal Xraqnyy ner zber be yrff haerfgenvarq irefvbaf bs gurzfryirf.

      Gur jnl V'ir pbzr gb haqrefgnaq vg vf gung inzcverf ergnva gurve crefbanyvgl, ohg ybfr gur pncnpvgl sbe uvture-beqre zbeny gubhtug. Jvyyvnz jnf n zhpu tragyre crefba guna Yvnz, fb Fcvxr vf fgvyy pncnoyr bs zhpu terngre graqrearff (gbjneqf Qeh, riraghnyyl gb Ohssl naq ure ybirq barf) guna Natryhf. V'z cerggl fher, ubjrire, gung unq Fcvxr abg unq gur puvc qhevat Frnfba 6, ur jbhyq unir orra gbgnyyl jvyyvat gb xvyy fgenatref; ur pbhyq oevat bguref jvguva gur fpbcr bs uvf shaqnzragnyyl frysvfu beovg, (ohg ur jbhyq arire unir rkgraqrq gung gb n trareny cevapvcyr bs aba-ivbyrapr.

      Inzc!Jvyybj erznvaf n ovg bs n ceboyrz, nf rira qnex Jvyybj qbrfa'g pbaivapr zr gung IJ jnf nal xvaq bs rkgrafvba bs ure crefbanyvgl, ohg fvapr fur jnf n gjb-bss punenpgre naq jr qba'g trg n shyy onpxfgbel, zl cbfvgvba fgnaqf.

      • James says:

        V nterr jvgu jung lbh fnvq nobhg Jvyyvnz/Fcvxr. Nf sne nf V haqrefgnaq vg, vg'f irel qrcraqrag ba gur glcr bs crefba lbh jrer. Jvyyvnz jnf n cbrg naq n ebznagvp; ur'f fgvyy pncnoyr bs graqrearff nf Fcvxr ohg nyfb frafvgvir gb pevgvpvfz naq cebar gb gurngevpf. Yvnz vf erpxyrff, urqbavfgvp naq natel ng gur jbeyq naq fb jr trg Natryhf jub qryvtugf va gbeghevat naq xvyyvat vafgrnq bs qevaxvat, tnzoyvat naq frk.

        Nf sbe Jvyybj… jryy, Jvyybj vf fbzrbar jub unf orra cerggl qbjagebqqra naq bireybbxrq ure jubyr yvsr. Jr frr jung unccraf jura fur trgf fbzr cbjre guebhtu ure zntvp: fur frrf vg nf n chavfuzrag jura Tvyrf jneaf ure gb rnfr hc ba pnfgvat, fur nohfrf gung cbjre gb trg jung fur jnagf (renfvat Gnen'f zrzbevrf) naq tbrf pbzcyrgryl bss gur envyf. V guvax vg'f cerggl ernfbanoyr gung vs fur orpnzr n inzcver, Jvyybj jbhyq rzoenpr gung cbjre naq or cerggl zhpu jung jr trg gb frr. Gur znva qvssrerapr orgjrra Qnex!Jvyybj naq Inzc!Jvyybj vf gung nf n inzcver fur qbrfa'g pner, jurernf qnex Jvyybj pnerf gbb zhpu.

        • robin_comments says:

          ZGR. V cerggl zhpu fvta naq abgnevmr rirelguvat lbh'ir fnvq urer. V ybir jung lbh'ir cbvagrq bhg nobhg Jvyybj.

        • ladililn says:

          Tbbq cbvagf ba inzc!Jvyybj. V nyjnlf jbaqrerq jung vg jnf gung znqr ure fb…rfcrpvnyyl rivy. Naq gur pbagenfg jvgu Qnex Jvyybj znxrf n ybg bs frafr.

      • ladililn says:

        V guvax lbhe jnl bs guvaxvat nobhg vg znxrf n ybg bs frafr. V'ir tbar obgu jnlf va grezf bs inzcf naq crefbanyvgl–qb gurl orpbzr gur bccbfvgr bs jung gurl jrer va yvsr (frr: inzc!Jvyybj)? Qb gurl orpbzr na rknttrengrq irefvba bs jung gurl jrer va erny yvsr? Ubj gb qb gubfr genvgf trg genafyngrq? Gurer'f qrsvavgryl abg na rkgerzryl pyrne-phg be jryy-qrsvarq nafjre tvira gb hf ol pnaba, ohg lbhe gurbel naq bgure fvzvyne barf qrsvavgryl uryc jura lbh'er jngpuvat gur fubj naq nggrzcg gb erpbapvyr nyy gur qvssrerag rivqrapr tvira. KQ

    • Seventh_Star says:

      vg vf engure pbashfvat.
      v guvax gur inzcverf qb ergnva gur crefbanyvgvrf, zrzbevrf, yvxr & qvfyvxrf, rgp. bs gung crefba, OHG jvgubhg fbhyf, gurl unir ab zrepl be thvyg be qrprapl be zbeny pbzcnff.

      natryhf vf vafvqr natry, vg'f jung natry jbhyq or vs ur unq ab pbafpvrapr. v guvax gung natry vf jung yvnz orpnzr nsgre yvivat nf natryhf sbe n uhaqerq lrnef naq fbzr punatr. yvnz qvqa'g unir gur yvsr rkcrevrapr gung natry qbrf. fb, fgenatryl, v thrff v nz fnlvat gung natryhf znqr yvnz n orggre crefba…va gur sbez bs natry.

      v'ir urneq qnivq shel fcrnx nobhg ubj ur guvaxf gung fcvxr vf fcrpvny orpnhfr ur znantrf gb ergnva uvf uhznavgl nsgre ur vf punatrq. shel guvaxf bs uvz nf na nabznyl, naq v graq gb qb gur fnzr.

      • ladililn says:

        Jung lbh'er fnlvat nobhg Natry orvat Yvnz ohg genafsbezrq vagb n orggre crefba ol yvivat nf Natryhf sbe nyy gubfr lrnef znxrf frafr gb zr! V'q arire gubhtug bs vg gung jnl, ohg V pna qrsvavgryl frr ubj gung zvtug qrirybc.

        V'q cerivbhfyl gubhtug bs Fcvxr nf na nabznyl nf jryy, ohg abj V'z whfg jbaqrevat vs Fcvxr'f pncnpvgl gb ybir, rgp. rgp. vf ernyyl whfg n inevngvba ba gur genafsbezngvba bs crefbanyvgl, zbenyf, rgp. gung bpphef jvgu gur uhzna gb inzcver punatr. Ohg nf pnaba'f arire ragveryl pyrne ba gung, V thrff jr'yy arire xabj sbe pregnva.

        • Seventh_Star says:

          fcvxr'f whfg RKGEN FHCRE FCRPVNY gb zr ab znggre jung orpnhfr v ybir uvz. un! zl oyvaq fcbg sbe uvz vf jnl jbefr guna ohssl'f.

        • RoseFyre says:

          Lrnu, gur Natry guvat nyfb jbexf jvgu Qneyn. Fur'f n irel qvssrerag crefba qhevat ure svefg gvzr nf n uhzna guna fur vf qhevat ure frpbaq gvzr nf n uhzna, naq qvssrerag bapr zber nsgre fur unf n fbhy qhevat ure frpbaq gvzr nf n inzcver. Naq Fcvxr, sbe gung znggre, qbrfa'g tb onpx gb orvat rknpgyl yvxr Jvyyvnz gur zbzrag ur trgf uvf fbhy. Fb V guvax gur fbhy tvirf lbh gur fbhy – gur pbafpvrapr, gur zbenyvgl, gur novyvgl gb pner nobhg nalguvat orfvqrf lbhefrys – ohg rkcrevraprf qb znggre, naq gurl qb punatr lbh. Fb n fbhyrq inzcver vf qvssrerag sebz gur uhzna gur inzcver jnf rneyvre, orpnhfr abj gurl unir nqqrq zrzbevrf naq fhpu.

          • Seventh_Star says:

            THIS. SO MUCH. there are so many ways that this show and its characters can be interpreted, as evidenced by this thread, but that's how i have always seen it. well said.

      • Nos says:

        V nterr, gb na rkgrag, er: Fcvxr orvat na nabznyl. Gur snpg gung ur ghearq uvf zbgure naq gura jnf gbgnyyl, gbgnyyl fubpxrq gung fur jnfa'g gur fnzr crefba ernyyl fcrnxf gb guvf.

        • Seventh_Star says:

          lrf. fcvxr'f punenpgre, fcrpvsvpnyyl, vf bar gung gurl zbyqrq naq funcrq bire gvzr. gur jnl ur raqrq hc qrirybcvat jnf abg sberfrra jura ur jnf svefg vagebqhprq. ol angher bs jung gur jevgref qvq jvgu uvf punenpgre, ur xvaq bs UNF gb or fcrpvny.

    • lawrence_s says:

      Lrnu, gurl'er qrsvavgryl ng yrnfg n yvggyr vapbafvfgrag jvgu rknpgyl ubj gur inzcverf naq uhzna fbhyf jbex. Zl vagrecergngvba vf gung gurl'er hfvat fbhy nf n flabalz sbe pbafpvrapr, naq abguvat zber, fb Natry qbrfa'g ernyyl unir Yvnz'f fbhy, whfg 'n' fbhy.

      Ohg V nyfb guvax gurer'f zber gb gur qrzba gnxvat bire guna gurl qrfpevor va Yvr gb Zr. Gung znl jbex vavgvnyyl, ohg bapr n inzcver tbrf bhg vagb gur jbeyq, gurl unir n punapr gb qrirybc n arj jbeyqivrj naq rira na ragveryl arj crefbanyvgl sebz n pbafpvrapr-serr crefcrpgvir. Fb Natry vfa'g Yvnz orpnhfr ur unf n praghel naq n unys bs Natryhf'f zrzbevrf naq jbeyqivrj va uvf urnq pbzcyvpngvat guvatf, jvgu bayl gjragl be fb lrnef bs Yvnz'f gb tebhaq uvz. Ur unf gb erqvfpbire uvf zbeny prager, naq vg anghenyyl jvyy or qvssrerag va fbzr jnlf, orpnhfr gur gjragvrgu praghel unf qvssrerag inyhrf sebz gur rvtugrragu.

      Fvzvyneyl, V jbhyqa'g fnl Fcvxr jnf ragveryl whfg Jvyyvnz jvgu n qrzba ng gur pbagebyf. Ur orpnzr zber erpxyrff naq neebtnag jura ur jnf ghearq, gjb guvatf Jvyyvnz qrsvavgryl jnf abg nf n uhzna. Ohg jura ur trgf uvf 'fbhy' onpx, ur'f nyernql orra gung erpxyrff naq neebtnag crefba sbe n uhaqerq lrnef naq punatr, fb ur'yy pbagvahr gb or, whfg jba'g or nf jvyyvat gb neovgenevyl zheqre uhznaf nal zber, naq zvtug or fyvtugyl zber jvyyvat gb yvfgra gb uvf zber pnevat fvqr ntnva.

      (V qba'g xabj vs gung rira znxrf nal frafr.)

      • ladililn says:

        Vg znxrf frafr gb zr! Jung lbh'er fnlvat vf cerggl pybfr gb ubj V'ir gevrq gb engvbanyvmr naq pynevsl vg va zl urnq nf V jngpu guebhtu gur frnfbaf.

        V guvax n ybg bs vg pbzrf sebz gur rkgerzryl fxrgpul Ohsslirefr qrsvavgvba bs n "fbhy". Lbh zvtug or evtug va fnlvat vg'f onfvpnyyl n pbafpvrapr, abguvat zber. Fb Natry jbhyqa'g unir arprffnevyl tbggra YVNZ'f fbhy onpx, whfg N fbhy.

      • MrsGillianO says:

        V guvax lbh'er evtug. Inzcverf unir ybfg nyy gur erfgenvagf naq "ibyhzr pbagebyf", fb nyy gurve vaarezbfg srryvatf pbzr bhg ybhq naq fgebat, naq nyy vauvovgvbaf ner qrfgeblrq. Ybbx ng Ubyqra Jrofgre – punezvat, nzbeny, guevyyrq ol gur vqrn bs gur rivy ur'f nobhg gb rzoenpr, ohg fgvyy abg fb irel sne sebz gur lbhat zna jr pna nffhzr ur jnf. Gur byqre gur inzc gur shegure sebz nal erfvqhny zrzbevrf bs "abezny" erfcbafrf.

    • SelphieFairy says:

      VZB, Fcvxr (naq Qehfvyyn gb na rkgrag) ner irel qvssrerag sebz bgure inzcverf. Gurl qba'g ernyyl rkcynva, JUL, bs pbhefr, ohg fvapr Fcvxr vf bar bs zl snibevgr punenpgref, V whfg yvxr gb guvax ur'f fcrpvny. :QQ Rira orsber ur tbg uvf fbhy, ur fubjrq fvtaf bs ybir, pbzcnffvba, wrnybhfl, rgp rgp. Ur qbrf n ybg bs guvatf zbfg Inzcverf qvqa'g ernyyl qb. Juvpu ernyyl znxrf vg dhrfgvbanoyr jurgure be abg ur "gehyl" ybirq Ohssl orsber frnfba 7, rira jvgubhg n fbhy.

    • etherealclarity says:

      V guvax jura vg pbzrf gb inzcverf va gur fubj, gung Ohssl vf pbeerpg va fnlvat "Lbh qvr, naq n qrzba frgf hc fubc va lbhe byq ubhfr, naq vg jnyxf, naq vg gnyxf, naq vg erzrzoref lbhe yvsr, ohg vg'f abg lbh."

      Nf tbvat sebz n uhzna gb n inzcver, gur inzcver ergnvaf rirelguvat nobhg gur uhzna rkprcg gur uhzna'f fbhy (juvpu, V guvax pna or nethrq, vf abg WHFG n pbafpvrapr, ohg fbzrguvat zber shaqnzragny nobhg crefbaubbq). Vafgrnq, ercynpvat gur fbhy vf gur fbhy naq fbzr culfvpny punenpgrevfgvpf bs n qrzba.

      N er-rafbhyrq inzcver vf abg gur fnzr guvat nf vs gur inzc fhqqrayl orpnzr uhzna ntnva, ohg engure nf vs gur uhzna fbhy erwbvarq gur obql naq unq gb funer gur obql jvgu gur qrzba fbhy. Fb va rssrpg, n er-rafbhyrq inzcver vfa'g gur fnzr crefba nf rvgure gur uhzna BE gur inzcver.

      Fb gur thvyg znl or n pbafrdhrapr bs gur uhzna fbhy funevat fcnpr jvgu gur qrzba. Orpnhfr va rssrpg, gur er-rafbhyrq inzc vfa'g gur thvyg serr uhzna orvat, ohg na ragveryl arj orvat. Vg znl unir orra gur qrzba jub pbzzvggrq gubfr ngebpvgvrf, ohg obgu funevat gur obql jvgu gung qrzba (univat vg'f zrzbevrf, xabjvat vg'f qrfverf) naq, va rssrpg, ernyvmvat gung gur er-rafbhyrq inzcver vf abg WHFG fbhy be WHFG qrzba ohg n pbzovangvba bs gur gjb, znl or jurer gur thvyg vf pbzvat sebz.

      Qbrf gur er-rafbhyrq inzc QRFREIR gung thvyg? V guvax gung'f qrongnoyr, naq V qba'g guvax vg vf fbzrguvat gung gur fubj unf shyyl pbzr gb grezf jvgu.

      Naljnl, gung'f zl gnxr ba vg.

      • ladililn says:

        Qbrf gur er-rafbhyrq inzc QRFREIR gung thvyg? V guvax gung'f qrongnoyr, naq V qba'g guvax vg vf fbzrguvat gung gur fubj unf shyyl pbzr gb grezf jvgu.

        Irel zhpu guvf. V unira'g orra noyr gb nafjre vg va n jnl gung V'z fngvfsvrq jvgu zlfrys jura jngpuvat Ohssl.

        • etherealclarity says:

          Ohg frr, V *yvxr* gung guvf vf haerfbyirq. Orpnhfr V guvax vg vfa'g pyrne, naq ernyyl pna'g or.

          Vg nyy qrcraqf ba lbhe crefcrpgvir. Vs lbh oryvrir gung lbh (ulcbgurgvpny lbh nf n er-fbhyrq inzc) ner pbzcevfrq bs obql/zrzbevrf/crefbanyvgl + qrzba + fbhy, gura gur qrzba jub pbzzvggrq gubfr ngebpvgvrf vf n cneg bs LBH naq gurersber jbegu srryvat thvyg bire. Ubjrire vs lbh guvax bs gur qrzba zber nf n cnenfvgr gung unf vasrpgrq gur obql naq jvyy qb jung vg jvyy, vs lbh guvax bs lbh nf gur obql/zrzbevrf/crefbanyvgl + fbhy gung unf orra vasrpgrq ol n qrzba, gura creuncf gur thvyg bire fbzrguvat lbh unq ab pbageby bire (gur qrzba cevbe gb gur fbhy ubyqvat vg onpx) vf haqrfreirq. Fb vg'f nyy nobhg crefcrpgvir, naq V guvax V jbhyq unir orra haunccl vs gur fubj unq gnxra n svez fgnapr rvgure jnl.

    • @hazakaza says:

      Ertneqvat lbhe vffhr jvgu pbafvfgrapl: V gbgnyyl nterr. V nyjnlf sbhaq vg rnfvre gb guvax nobhg trggvat inzcrq nf punatvat lbhe nyvtazrag va Qhatrbaf naq Qentbaf. Zbfg crbcyr ner shaqnzragnyyl Tbbq be Arhgeny ng jbefg; Yvnz, sbe rknzcyr, jnf frysvfu, ohg abg bhgjneqyl pehry, fb ur'q or Arhgeny. Jvyyvnz, ba gur bgure unaq, pnerq sbe uvf zbgure rabhtu fgvyy gb jnag gb genafsbez ure rira nsgre. Fb, V guvax trggvat inzcrq fxrjf lbh n enaqbz nzbhag gbjneq "rivy." Nyfb pbafvqre gung vg'f abg n Fgnaqneq Vffhr Inzc-Qrzba jub'f bpphclvat naq obaqvat jvgu lbhe obql naq zrzbevrf; vg'f na vaqvivqhny qrzba. Naq nf jr frr yngre, fbzr bs gurz ner avpre guna bguref, naq fbzr ner zber fhfprcgvoyr gb uhzna qrfverf naq sbvoyrf guna bguref. Jvyyvnz jnf n ybirybea cbrg, naq rira nf n zbafgre ur'f fhfprcgvoyr gb gubfr fnzr guvatf, vs gnvagrq ol fnintrel. Ohg vs lbh ybbx ng Inzc!Jvyybj, lbh pbhyq fnl ure qrzba zhfg or fgebatre–naq Jvyybj urefrys trgf fb rnfvyl genzcyrq rira ol ure sevraqf–gung fur'f zber qrzbavp naq pehry. (NAQ jr frr gung Jvyybj nofbyhgryl unf gur pncnpvgl sbe xvyyvat va pbyq oybbq jura vg fhvgf ure. Whfg nfx Jneera gur Fxvayrff Jbaqreobl.)

      Gb fhzznevmr guvf enzoyr: Trggvat inzcrq vfa'g greevoyl pbafvfgrag, ohg V ybbx ng vg nf gheavat hc lbhe artngvir crefbanyvgl genvgf gb 11, naq gura erzbivat nal zbenyf be bgure rguvpny bofgnpyrf gung jbhyq trg va gur jnl bs rkcerffvat gubfr genvgf gb gurve hgzbfg.

      • ladililn says:

        Unun, V yvxr guvf nanybtl! Abj jurarire n inevbhf vapneangvba bs n pregnva punenpgre pbzrf hc V znl srry pbzcryyrq gb fgvpx n zbenyvgl ynory ba gurz, whfg gb xrrc vg nyy fgenvtug…

    • Bonnie says:

      Although I wonder why Spike was convinced to make Ford a vampire, but whatever.

      It's for the sake of irony. The good guys are lying to each other, while the villain is the one who keeps his word.

      • ladililn says:

        Ohhh. Wow, that's good. Shoulda picked up on that…

        • RoseFyre says:

          Also, I think he knows Buffy is going to stake Ford – she's going to have to. So in that sense, it's also to hurt her by making her stake her friend – and keeping his part of the promise, but knowing it won't actually last. And so Ford gets "eternal" life…for all of ten seconds. He never really gets what was promised, and Buffy gets hurt doing it.

    • settlingforhistory says:

      Fb Yvnz naq Natryhf ner zber nyvxr va crefbanyvgl, ohg gurl ner nccneragyl gjb qvssrerag orvatf, juvyr Natry vf whfg Natryhf jvgu n fbhy.

      Bx, fb guvf zvtug or na hygvzngr sna-jnax gurbel bs zvar, ohg urer vg tbrf:

      Inzcverf ner qrzbaf, gurl ner abg whfg crbcyr jvgubhg fbhyrf.
      Fb gurl unir gur zrzbevrf bs gur crefba naq orpnhfr bs gung zvtug funer fbzr bs gurve punenpgrevfgvpf, ohg gurl ner fgvyy whfg qrzbaf.
      Inzcverf yvxr crbcyr pna or dhvgr qvssrerag va crefbanyvgl, fb jr unir Qeh naq Fcvxr jub ner rivy ohg nyfb ernyyl rzbgvbany (nf cebira ol gur Whqtr) naq jr unir Qneyn, jub unf rzbgvba ohg vf noyr gb guebj gurz bhg gur jvaqbj gur zbzrag gurl orpbzr qvfgenpgvat (yvxr va "Natry", jura fur whfg yrnirf Natryhf va gur fgnoyr, gb fnir urefrys) naq gura jr unir Natryhf jub vf fb hggreyl jvgubhg cbfvgvir rzbgvbaf gung ur unf gb jnfu gurz bss bs uvz jura ur xvffrf Ohssl juvyr cbffrfrq ol n tubfg.
      Natryhf vf fb qvfthfgrq ol ybir naq xvaqarff, gung ur whfg qvfnccrerf jura Natry ertnvaf uvf fbhy. Vg vf nf vs uvf crefbanyvgl fcyvgf ng gung zbzrag naq Natryhf gnxrf gur onpxfrng naq ur ernccrerf jura Natry vf cnegvphynel natel be unccl. (Gung'f jul qehtf jurer rabhtu gb "jnxr hc" Natryhf, rira gubhtu Natry qvq abg ybfr uvf fbhy).

      • ladililn says:

        Buu, gung'f na vagrerfgvat gnxr ba gur jubyr "jul Natry ybfrf uvf fbhy jura ur rkcrevraprf n zbzrag bs cher unccvarff guvat". V nyjnlf whfg nffhzrq vg jnf bar bs gur fgvchyngvbaf bs gur phefr (jryy, vg vf, V zrna "nffhzrq gur BAYL ernfba oruvaq vg jnf gur phefr"), ohg gur vqrn gung vg'f orpnhfr Natryhf vf n perngher fb erchyfrq ol ybir naq xvaqarff… Jub xabjf, gur jbzna jub pnfg gur phefr pbhyq unir qbar vg gung jnl ba checbfr.

    • Shiyra says:

      Bu, V nterr nobhg gur Natry guvat. V guvax ur unf zhygvcyr crefbanyvgvrf. Vg'f yvxr ur unf perngrq gurfr bgure crbcyr gb pbzcnegzragnyvmr uvf fva naq thvyg b ur pna qrny jvgu vf sebz n qvfgnapr naq rirelbar ohlf vagb vg naq nf fbba nf ur punatrf onpx gb fbhyrq-Natry rirelbar nyzbfg vzzrqvngryl sbetvir naq sbetrg. Naq jura ur ybfrf uvf fbhy ur npgf qvfthfgrq jvgu gur npgvbaf bs "Natry." Naq lbh ner evtug nobhg Yvnz, ur vf n fphzont, fb jub vf gur erny Natry?

      Ohg Fcvxr vf fb zhpu zber fgnoyr (fgenatr gb fnl) naq uvf crefbanyvgl qbrfa'g qenfgvpnyyl punatr jura ur jvaf uvf fbhy onpx, lrg orpnhfr ur qbrfa'g pynvz gung vg jnf fbzrbar be fbzrguvat ryfr gung qvq nyy gubfr rivy guvatf (vva snpg Ohssl gevrf gb pbaivapr "fbhshy-Fcvxr" gung vg jnfa'g uvz jub qvq nyy gubfr rivy guvatf), ur qbrfa'g erdhrfg gb or pnyyrq ol n qvssrerag anzr, ab bar ohg Ohssl rire gerngf uvz yvxr ur unf punatrq naq fgvyy oynzr uvz naq jnag ubyq uvz nppbhagnoyr sbe uvf npgvbaf naq arire gehfg uvz. Vg'f vashevngvat ng pregnva cbvagf, rfcrpvnyyl orpnhfr Fcvxr arire qvq nalguvat nf onq gb gurz nf "Natryhf" qvq.

      I think Spike changed Ford because at this point it was the only thing he could do to hurt Buffy.

      • ladililn says:

        Lrnu, gur gerngzrag bs Fcvxr va trareny bsgra frrzf vapbafvfgrag jvgu gur punenpgref' gerngzrag bs rirelbar ryfr. Vg pna trg ernyyl pbashfvat.

        Gur anzr guvat vf ernyyl vagrerfgvat. Jul jbhyq fbhyrq!Natry pubbfr gb xrrc gur anzr "Natry", fvapr vg jnf tvira gb na rivy irefvba bs uvz va n ernyyl greevoyr, rivy pvephzfgnapr? Jul jbhyq ur XRRC gung anzr?

      • @Ivana2804 says:

        V qba'g erzrzore Natry rire nfxvat gb or pnyyrq ol n qvssrerag anzr be vzcylvat gung vg jnfa'g uvz jub qvq nyy gubfr guvatf. Va snpg, ur nyjnlf vzcyvrf ur vf erfcbafvoyr sbe gurz. Ohg ur qbrf yrg bgure crbcyr npg yvxr "Natryhf" vf nabgure crefba naq rkphfr uvz – naq ol gung, V zrna uvf sevraqf ng Natry Vairfgvtngvbaf. Gur Fpbbovrf arire frrzrq gb ernyyl guvax "Natry" naq "Natryhf" jrer gjb qvssrerag crbcyr. Knaqre, Tvyrf naq rira Ohssl nyy uryq uvz erfcbafvoyr naq gnyxrq nobhg gur guvatf *ur* qvq. V qba'g guvax gurve gerngzrag bs Natry naq Fcvxr va gung erfcrpg jnf nyy gung qvssrerag, jura lbh gnxr Eriryngvbaf naq Nzraqf vagb nppbhag (naq NgF Fnapghnel sbe Ohssl).

        V guvax Ohssl nyjnlf unq gur vagryyrpghny haqrefgnaqvat gung fbhyrq naq fbhyyrff irefvba bs gur inzcverf ner gur fnzr crefba, ohg n shaqnzragnyyl punatrq bar fb gung gurl qba'g orne gur shyy erfcbafvovyvgl; ohg ure gerngzrag bs gurz jnf qvssrerag va gur frafr gung fur sbhaq vg rnfvre gb pbzcnegzragnyvmr "Natry" naq "Natryhf" naq fyvc vagb gerngvat Natry nf gur thl cer-Vaabprapr orpnhfr fur svefg xarj uvz nf n tbbq fbhyrq inzcver, naq nyernql unq n eryngvbafuvc jvgu fbhyrq Natry naq pbhyq fyvc onpx vagb gung qlanzvp, vtabevat jung unccrarq jura ur ybfg uvf fbhy. Jvgu Fcvxr, fur svefg xarj uvz jura ur jnf fbhyyrff naq rivy, gura fur xarj uvz nf fbhyyrff ohg zbenyyl terl naq unq n eryngvbafuvc jvgu uvz jura ur jnf fbhyyrff, naq vagrenpgvat jvgu n fbhyrq Fcvxr jnf n arj rkcrevrapr, fur qvqa'g xabj jung gurve qlanzvp jbhyq or abj naq jung xvaq bs n zna ur jnf tbvat gb or jvgu n fbhy, naq vg gbbx ure n juvyr gb fbeg bhg ure srryvatf nobhg uvz.

        V guvax gung gur jnl fur qrnyg jvgu vg jnf zhpu urnyguvre guna gur jnl fur qrnyg, be onfvpnyyl nibvqrq qrnyvat jvgu ure frnfba 2 rkcrevrapr jvgu Natry/Natryhf. Jvgu Natry, fur gevrq gb vtaber vg, naq ure natre naq cnva bayl pnzr bhg ng gvzrf (Nzraqf, Fnapghnel) naq V srry gung fur arire ernyyl znantrq gb rzbgvbanyyl qrny jvgu gur snpg gung Natry unq "Natryhf" va uvz. V trg n zhpu fgebatre frafr va frnfba 7 gung fur vf shyyl njner bs jub Fcvxr vf naq pbzrf gb npprcg uvz juvyr xabjvat gur jbefg guvatf ur jnf pncnoyr bs; V qba'g trg gur frafr gung fur rire ernyyl rzoenprq Natry'f synjf. Fur vf nyjnlf guvaxvat bs uvz nf gur thl sebz Jung'f Zl Yvar naq Fhecevfr, naq V guvax fur jbhyq or fhecevfrq gb trg gb xabj Natry sebz frnfbaf 2-5 bs NgF.

    • robin_comments says:

      V gbgnyyl unir gur fnzr ceboyrz. Gur bayl jnl V snajnax vg vf gung gur Jngpure'f Pbhapvy ner xvaq bs … ovt wrexf. Naq fb vg'f hafhecevfvat gung gurl jbhyqa'g haqrefgnaq gur ahnaprf bs inzcver crefbanyvgl, fbhyf, naq fhpu. Gb zr vg'f pbzcyrgryl haoryvrinoyr gung inzcverf ner NPGHNYYL whfg qrzbaf jrnevat fbzrbar ryfr'f obql naq jvgu gurve xabjyrqtr. Ab jnl, ab ubj. Gung'f jung Tvyrf GRYYF zr ohg gur frevrf unf FUBJA zr fbzrguvat ryfr.

      V nterr jvgu lbh gung vg'f gur pyrnerfg jvgu Fcvxr'f punenpgre. Fcvxr = Jvyyvnz + qrzbavp vzchyfrf + zbyqvat sebz gbaf bs (nsgre)yvsr rkcrevrapr. Jr unir gur fnzr qrny jvgu Unezbal. Fvapr fur'f ynpxvat nyy bs gur punatvat rkcrevraprf, vg'f gbgnyyl whfg Unezbal + qrzbavp vzchyfrf.

      Jvgu Yvnz/Natry/Natryhf vg'f gbhture. Vg'f oryvrinoyr gb frr jurer Yvnz orpbzrf Natryhf, orpnhfr nf n uhzna ur jnfa'g gur avprfg thl naq jnf nyernql cebar gb… rkprff. Gur Natry jr frr ba gur fcva-bss vf zber biregyl 'qnex' naq fb ur zryqf orggre jvgu Yvnz/Natryhf. Naq jr frr gung ur <v>jnf</v> gelvat gb fgvyy erznva jvgu Qneyn cbfg-fbhy rkprcg ur whfg pbhyqa'g unpx vg. (Fb Natry naq Natryhf nera'g dhvgr nf cbyne bccbfvgr nf jnf vzcyvrq ba OgIF, juvpu znxrf vg ybbx yvxr jvfushy guvaxvat ba gurve cneg.) Ohg ernyyl, lrnu, gur Yvnz->Natry yvar vf gur zbfg zhqqyrq. V trarenyyl nffhzr gung Natry jvgu uvf fbhy tbg zber oebbql, njxjneq, naq zbebfr bire gur lrnef qhr gb orvat vfbyngrq sebz bgure crbcyr sbe fb ybat (orybatvat jvgu arvgure uhznaf be inzcverf).

      • ladililn says:

        V pna frr OgiF!Natry nf orvat xvaqn jvfushy guvaxvat-rfdhr ba gur cneg bs Ohssl, creuncf. Fur'f qrsvavgryl irel rntre gb frr Natry naq Natryhf nf gjb pbzcyrgryl frcnengr orvatf–vg znxrf zr guvax bs gur zbzrag va "Orpbzvat" jura Knaqre npphfrf ure bs jnagvat gb vtaber Wraal'f zheqre whfg gb trg ure oblsevraq onpx. V guvax ur'f birefvzcyvslvat vg naq orvat haarprffnevyl unefu naq rgp. rgp., ohg ernyyl sebz gur cbvag bs ivrj bs gung rcvfbqr V guvax ur qbrf unir n ovg bs n cbvag.

        Nalubj, gubhtu, VN jvgu onfvpnyyl lbhe ragver pbzzrag. :Q

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      Vg'f npghnyyl irel fvzcyr. Gur fubj arire gbyq lbh vg jnf gur gehgu. Gur fubj whfg gbyq lbh vg'f fbzrguvat gung Jngpuref oryvrir naq/be gryy Fynlref, gur grrantr tveyf jub ner fhccbfrq gb xvyy gubfr inzcverf rirel avtug. Gur Jngpuref naq gur Fynlref qba'g npghnyyl unir nal jnl bs xabjvat gung guvf vf gehr. Ba gur bgure unaq, rirel inzcver rire guvaxf gung gurl'er fgvyy gur fnzr crbcyr gurl jrer nf uhznaf.

      Qneyn, Unezbal naq gur Tbepu oebguref cebir gung zbfg boivbhfyl, naq vg jnf gur jubyr cbvag bs Yvnz'f, Qehfvyyn'f naq Jvyyvnz'f synfuonpxf, naq gur jubyr cbvag bs gur punenpgref bs Inzc Jvyybj naq Inzc Knaqre.

      Gurl'er punatrq, ohg gurl'er fgvyy gur fnzr ragvgl/crefba guebhtubhg. Vg'f gur bayl guvat gung znxrf frafr.

      Tvyrf fnvq gung Wrffr jnfa'g gur Wrffr Knaqre xarj, juvpu jnf zrgncubevpnyyl gehr creuncf ("sebz n pregnva cbvag bs ivrj" nf Bov Jna jbhyq fnl) ohg vg jnf ernyyl whfg Jngpure'f vqrbybtl juvpu znl be znl abg or gehr; vg jnf pregnvayl fbzrguvat gb fnl gb Knaqre gb znxr uvz fgnxr Wrffr zber rnfvyl. V'z abg fher Knaqre obhtug vg (V fher qvqa'g) fvapr ur jnf fgvyy nqqerffvat Wrffr nf Wrffr, naq inzcver Wrffr uvzfrys gubhtug ur jnf Wrffr, ohg punatrq, yvorengrq, abg n ybfre nalzber. Ur rira fgvyy unq gur fnzr qrfver sbe Pbeqryvn, ohg abj punatrq gb oybbqyhfg. Svanyyl, Wbff Jurqba va uvf QIQ pbzzragnel fnlf gung vg'f fbzrguvat gehr bs uvtu fpubby – lbh orpbzr fb zhpu zber nggenpgvir gb tveyf jura lbh trg guvf pbasvqrapr va lbhefrys, naq Wrffr unq gb qvr gb trg vg. Wrffr – abg fbzr bgure thl jub pnzr naq cbffrffrq uvf obql – juvpu jbhyq'ir orra n ernyyl cbvagyrff naq qhyy fgbelyvar, OGJ.

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      "~ I love, love, love the last scene. (Although I wonder why Spike was convinced to make Ford a vampire, but whatever.) "

      Well, he gave his word, and… don't forget the eerie looks he and Dru gave Ford, and the fact that they must've known that Buffy was going to wait for Ford to rise so she would stake him, now that she knew for sure he was a vampire. If Spike and Dru had wanted Ford to survive, they would've taken him with them, but when they left him in the club, they knew Buffy would come for him and know he was most likely sired and that she had to stake him. Spike could keep his word but Ford was still going to be dust.

      • cait0716 says:

        I also saw it as another blow to Buffy. Spike doesn't care about Ford one way or another, Buffy will probably kill him. But it's one more thing she has to do, time she isn't spending focusing on Spike and Dru. Why not create another distraction for the Slayer when given the chance?

  12. cait0716 says:

    I really love this episode. The way that it focuses on the gray area is amazing. Buffy is growing up and things aren't as simple as they used to be. She sort of sympathizes with Ford (while still condemning his choice) and she isn't sure if Angel is as trustworthy as she thought. Life isn't going to be as easy as she thought it was. And the naive optimism of Giles' lie at the end is one of my favorite things.

    V yvxr gur jnl guvf yrnqf evtug vagb gur arkg rcvfbqr. Ohssl pnyyf Tvyrf n yvne naq gura jr vzzrqvngryl yrnea gung ur unf orra ylvat, be ng yrnfg pbaprnyvat gur gehgu sebz ure

    V jnf tbvat gb pynvz guvf nf bar bs zl gbc gra rcvfbqrf, orpnhfr V ybir vg fb zhpu. Ohg gura V fng qbja naq gubhtug nobhg vg naq guvf ernyyl bayl trgf vagb gur gbc guvegl. V whfg ernyyl yvxr Ohssl, bxnl?

    The scene with Willow and Angel in her bedroom is the worst makeup ever. For both of them. I get that they were trying to make Angel look pale because he's a vampire, but it just doesn't work in this scene. His lips are way too pink in an unnatural way and Willow's contrasting makeup is too dark and obvious for a girl about to go to bed. Especially since that makeup is heavier than Willow typically wears on the show. It's just really distracting.

    The vampire that rises from the grave at the end looks nothing like Ford. I think it's just the shadowing, but he looks like he has a mustache or goatee. And he looks too short. I'm sure it's the same actor, just weird makeup and lighting.

    Willow's "Ours is a forbidden love" line makes me smile. Mostly because it reminds me of all the Willow/Angel fics I read back in the day many of which referenced that line at least once.

    "Oh, that's what that song is about?"


    I view Buffy and Angel as very much in love with the ideas of each other. It's a high school relationship. Hormonal and passionate and full of melodramatic emotions. I had relationships like that in high school. They moved way too fast and I got hurt really badly. I think this portrayal is realistic in terms of a 16 year old girl trying to navigate her life as she grows up.

    • Karen says:

      Yessss, I agree with your assessment of Buffy and Angel. I think it's very realistic and very much in line with a lot of high school relationships (juvpu vf jul V guvax gung Ohssl/Natry jbexf urer va frnfba 2 naq rira va frnfba 3, ohg nsgre gung, vg whfg tbg fvyyl.)

      • cait0716 says:

        Lrnu. V zrna, V trg fbzr bs gur yngre pnyyonpxf. Ur jnf Ohssl'f svefg ybir naq gurer'f n cneg bs lbh gung nyjnlf pnerf nobhg gur svefg ybir. V nccerpvngrq uvf ebyr nsgre Wblpr'f shareny, jura Ohssl whfg arrqf fbzrbar gb ubyq ure naq fur gheaf gb Natry. Gurer'f n pbzsbeg va gung snzvyvnevgl. Naq gur frnfba sbhe fghss vf zbfgyl gur nsgrezngu bs n engure zrffl oernxhc. Ohg V'z yrff fher nobhg uvf nccrnenapr va gur svanyr naq orlbaq gur fubj V'q engure gurl whfg or sevraqf guna fbhyzngrf. V yvxr gung Ohssl raqrq gur fubj fvatyr naq n ybg bs gur fghss va gur pbzvpf vf fbeg bs vssl sbe zr.

        • @Ivana2804 says:

          Frnfba 8 pyrneyl zbpxf gur vqrn bs fbhyzngrf. Vg'f bar ovt fngver ba gur vqrn bs gjh jhi sberire naq vg gvrf vg jvgu n irel qnex fgbel bs ubj gur frnfba ivyynva, Gjvyvtug, tbg Ohssl gb "orgenl urefrys", hfvat Natry gb gbezrag ure (yvxr ur qvq Qeh) naq fgevc ure bs ure zbeny pregnvagl, naq gura bssre ure n pbzsbegvat grrantr snvel gnyr va n zbzrag jura fur jnf ng ure ybjrfg cbvag, qrfcrengr naq hafher bs ure bja ebyr nf n ureb, abg gb zragvba nsgre orvat ybaryl naq vfbyngrq sbe na ragver lrne.

          Ohssl/Natry jnf pbzcyrgryl funggrerq naq fngvevmrq va frnfba 8. V ernyyl qba'g trg ubj nalbar jbhyq frr vg nf cbfvgvir be nssvezvat gur vqrn bs "Ohssl naq Natry sberire".

    • Karen says:

      Aaaalso, going of the idea of Angel and Buffy being ideas to each other, V guvax guvf vf rfcrpvnyyl gehr sbe Natry orpnhfr Ohssl ercerfragf ubcr gb uvz. Nf jr svaq bhg va "Nzraqf" vg jnf frrvat Ohssl gung vafcverq uvz gb fgneg gb gel gb qb fbzrguvat tbbq jvgu uvf yvsr. Fb lrnu, Ohssl vf qrsvavgryl yvxr guvf flzoby bs ubcr naq tbbqarff gb Natry.

      • tanbarkie says:

        Lrnu, guvf vf cneg bs jung znxrf gurve eryngvbafuvc srry fb dhvagrffragvnyyl "uvtu fpubby" gb zr: gurl'er abg va ybir jvgu gur npghny bgure crefba, fb zhpu nf gurl'er va ybir jvgu jung gung crefba ercerfragf.

      • ladililn says:

        Lrf gb nyy bs guvf. V guvax vg rkcynvaf fb jryy jul n praghevrf-byq inzc (abg gb zragvba zvq-gjragvrf uhzna) jub jnf rivy naq unq frkhny eryngvbafuvcf jvgu obgu Qneyn naq Qehfvyyn (naq cbffvoyl bguref, jub xabjf) naq gura fcrag n uhaqerq lrnef oebbqvat naq yvivat bss engf, naq gura qrpvqrq gb orpbzr n sbepr sbe tbbq jbhyq snyy sbe guvf enaqbz uvtu fpubby tvey (rira vs fur vf gur Fynlre). Gurve rkcrevrapr naq znghevgl yriryf ner infgyl qvssrerag–abg gb fnl gung Ohssl vf vzzngher, ohg fur boivbhfyl fgvyy unf n ybg bs tebjvat hc gb qb–juvpu qba'g uryc va znxvat guvf eryngvbafuvc jbexnoyr, rira orlbaq gur Fynlre/inzcver guvat.

      • MrsGillianO says:

        Ohg V fgvyy svaq vg perrcl gung uvf svefg fvtug bs ure vf fhpxvat gung ybyyvcbc naq ybbxvat vaperqvoyl Ybyvgn. Ur vf ZBER GUNA GRA GVZRF URE NTR, QNZZVG.

      • @Ivana2804 says:

        Natry fnvq vg orfg va NgF "V Snyy gb Cvrprf" jura ur gnyxrq nobhg gur perrcl fgnyxre qbpgbe gurl jrer gelvat gb cebgrpg n jbzna sebz (gur fprar urnivyl vzcyvrq ur jnf vqragvslvat naq gnyxvat nobhg uvzfrys):

        "Guvf thl vf gbb zrffrq hc gb qrny jvgu n erny jbzna naq ur pna’g fgnaq gung. Fb ur perngrf n snagnfl nobhg n tvey ur oneryl xabjf. Ohg riraghnyyl rira fur snvyf uvz. Fb ur unf gb uheg ure, orpnhfr jura ur ybbxf ng ure nyy ur frrf vf ubj hfryrff ur vf, ubj qnzntrq…”

        • cait0716 says:

          Gung vf fbzr rkpryyrag vafvtug sebz Natry naq ernyyl fhzf hc Natryhf' gerngzrag bs Ohssl. Gur fubj znxrf n qvfgvapgvba orgjrra gur gjb crefbanf, ohg V'z fbeg bs fgnegvat gb yvxr fbzr bs gur zber fhogyr pbzzragnel gung Ohssl/Natry jnf na nohfvir eryngvbafuvc (frr nyfb Ornhgl naq gur Ornfgf). Vg cbvagf gb vg orvat zber n fhoirefvba bs gur fgne-pebffrq ybiref/bar gehr ybir guvat.

    • hassibah says:

      Yeah Willow's bedtime makeup distracted the hell out of me. Otherwise so cute in her bunny slippers-well cute no matter what, but you know.

    • RoseFyre says:

      Vg vf FB UNEQ gb cvpx n gbc gra rcvfbqrf. V xabj aneebjvat vg qbja gb gra whfg qbrf abg jbex sbe zr ng nyy, naq gurer ner fb znal qvssrerag ernfbaf V ybir rcvfbqrf – sebz uhzbe gb rpubvat zl bja rkcrevraprf gb cybg gb…rirelguvat, ernyyl.

      Oh God, yes! That makeup is terrible! Willow doesn't wear that color lipstick, like, ever, and Angel looks like he just sucked on a raspberry jolly rancher or something.

      • notemily says:

        I remember seeing a website once where you could pit Buffy episodes against each other and whichever one came out the winner would be THE BEST Buffy episode. I wish I knew what that was so I could find it again and re-rank everything.

        • Karen says:

          OMG. I WANT TO FIND THAT WEBSITE. I feel like it would be a good use of my time.

        • cait0716 says:

          The problem is "The BEST" Buffy episode depends so much on my mood, my frame of mind, and what I've been watching/reading/listening to lately. There are several that rotate through that spot pretty regularly that I usually just refer to as my top ten. I can't order them, though.

          • notemily says:

            Yeah, me neither. Gur Obql, Bapr Zber Jvgu Srryvat, Orpbzvat 1/2, Prophecy Girl, Fhecevfr/Vaabprapr, Uhfu, Gnohyn Enfn, naq V Bayl Unir Rlrf Sbe Lbh are probably my top ten right now off the top of my head, but there are other ones I love too and it depends on my mood.

            • cait0716 says:

              And it differs between people, since my spur of the moment list is rather different from yours.

              Gur Obql
              Gur Tvsg
              Bapr Zber, Jvgu Srryvat
              Sbby Sbe Ybir
              Ybire'f Jnyx
              V Bayl Unir Rlrf Sbe Lbh

              But yeah, this list will probably change by the time I look at it again

  13. Mez says:

    Guvf rcvfbqr vagebqhprf zl nofbyhgr snibhevgr crefba va gur Ohsslirefr: NAAR FGRRYR.

    (Pheeragyl xabja nf "Punagneryyr", ohg fur'yy tebj bhg bs gung cunfr.)

    LNL NAAR!!!! LBH EBPX!!!!


  14. randomisjen says:

    Natry’f vairfgvtngvba

    Ojn unn unn Fb abg cercnerq!

  15. guest_age says:

    If I remember correctly, this isn't actually the first time Buffy has said that she loved Angel. If I'm remembering right, she says (or maybe the dialog just hints/it goes unspoken but obvious) that she does in 1×07. Which, actually, thank you for bringing it up, because that was always my biggest problem with Buffy/Angel: I felt like it happened way too fast, like one minute they were just meeting/maybe sharing a first kiss and all the sudden the L-word was being bandied about, and I felt like I had whiplash. And so I never really got completely on board because I felt like the foundation had been so shaky.

    But all of that said, during this re-watch I'm finding that not only do I like Angel more as a character than I ever have before, but I'm also more on board with Buffy/Angel. I'm not sure why that is, but I'm finding them more delightful now than ever before. Perhaps it's because this is the first time I've watched straight through since I forced myself to read Twilight and now I know how bad this could've been, but I honestly don't think so–I think it's just better on its own, not as a comparison.

    tl;dr: this may be the first time I've ever watched this show and had Buffy/Angel feels, but I'm glad that I'm finally on board.

    In other news, that scene in Willow's bedroom is maybe one of the best things this show has ever done or that has ever been on TV, ever. It is BEYOND brilliant. Alyson is delightful when she's doing comedy and David is never better than when he's poking gentle fun at Angel's character.

    Finally, I can not be the only one who watched that scene in the vampire-worshipping club thinking, "OMG TWIHARDS!" I feel horrible about that because I'm sure they're all lovely people and here I am like, oppressing them with my Twilight bigotry but there you go: I own up to having that thought.

    • dasmondschaf says:

      Finally, I can not be the only one who watched that scene in the vampire-worshipping club thinking, "OMG TWIHARDS!"

      I watched this episode with a friend, and she said: "Wait, wait. Is that an entire room of Bella Swanns???"

      So no, you aren't the only one.

    • arctic_hare says:

      You are definitely not the only one, lol.

    • Dru says:

      that was always my biggest problem with Buffy/Angel: I felt like it happened way too fast, like one minute they were just meeting/maybe sharing a first kiss and all the sudden the L-word was being bandied about, and I felt like I had whiplash.

      EXACTLY. It's like one minute, he's brooding and she thinks he's cute, and then the next it's like BAM!soulmates. I can certainly believe in love at first sight for the purposes of a story if there's some time spent on the setup, but this is not one of those stories.

    • pica_scribit says:

      Can't believe it took until this far down the comments for someone to reference Twilight with regards to this episode.

    • cait0716 says:

      When I first watched this (and rewatched again and again in high school) Buffy and Angel's relationship never felt too fast. Part of that was that I was watching an episode a week (instead of marathoning them). Part of it was that I was young and hormonal and feeling exactly what Buffy was feeling. It's weird because I know, intellectually, that I shipped them hardcore when I was 12 or 13. But now I have a hard time shipping them. It's interesting that we switched positions… 🙂

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      "If I remember correctly, this isn't actually the first time Buffy has said that she loved Angel. If I'm remembering right, she says (or maybe the dialog just hints/it goes unspoken but obvious) that she does in 1×07."

      Xander asks if she's in love with Angel, she doesn't answer. Xander then gets angry: "How can you love a vampire". So at least she was thinking she might be in love with him, but she never said it until Lie to Me, when Angel practically made her say it.

      • guest_age says:

        That's the scene I was thinking of. I always took from that that her answer was yes, she did love him, but couldn't bring herself to say it in light of finding out he was a vampire.

        In all fairness to Buffy and Angel, at least in this phase of their relationship…I mean, they're not the first high school couple (well, high school on her part at least) to say "I love you" quickly without a slow build up like one might expect from older and more mature characters. (For all that Angel has age and experience, I honestly don't know if I'd call him mature, but I suppose that is totally debatable.) It just always bugged me so I could never get on board, but I'm liking it more this time around, I guess because I can frame it like that: it probably does feel like love at that age/experience level, and there's nothing wrong with that.

  16. dasmondschaf says:

    I remember that the first time I watched this episode I found the vampire-wannabes hilarious. Now, with a bit more perspective, all I can see are a bunch of naive kids who want a place of acceptance and escape, and who definitely do not deserve to be eaten by vampires. ):

    On a much lighter note: MONSTER TRUCKS. Also, I find it interesting that the episode about how everyone lies, and how everyone hides something, comes right after last episode's reveal that Giles is not entirely as he seems, and the biggest outright lie that Giles tells is about whether he enjoyed the monster trucks or not.

  17. unefeeverte says:

    Re: Drusilla – I believe her attitude and sort-of Stockholm Syndrome are to do with her being a vampire. I guess the second she got turned (and lost her soul and had the demon take her mind) she'd be like, "Yeah, I'd love to do all that to the next innocent bystander myself! Chapeau, Angel, for that thorough torture!" And maybe she even likes her memories of it now because she doesn't feel anymore. As a vampire, I think she's completely detached from her human life and it all just seems like a big joke to her. (I think it'd safe to assume she's tortured someone in a similar way since then.)

    At least, that's my take on it. I don't think she behaves that way because Angel "drove her crazy", but because she's a demon now.

    • guest_age says:

      That's what I've always assumed–Drusilla the human soul who inhabited that body would not have the same feelings towards Angel as Drusilla the demon who lives there now does. Demons like torture and murder and mayhem, so to me, the demon that took up residence there would be like, "Oh, what a great job you did on this one, Angel. Teach me your ways and let us ravish the land together!"

      Less of a Stockholm thing and more of a…well, demons have a different moral code/different wants and desires than humans. To a demon, him torturing her is fun.

      • rabbitape says:

        Exactly. The human Drusilla is dead. She doesn't have any feelings for Angel at all, as she is not around to feel much of anything. Her body is up and about, but she's not in it.

        She is an ex-Drusilla.

        • unefeeverte says:

          The whole "vampires do not have feelings (if they do not have a soul)" thing that is a rather big topic at this point in the story actually always made me dislike jung unccraf gb Fcvxr yngre ba va gur frevrf naq gur jnl V qba'g guvax vg'f rire cebcreyl rkcynvarq?

          Juvyr V qba'g zvaq gung ur zvtug npghnyyl ybir Qehfvyyn abj naq va gur shgher frnfbaf – fur'f obgu nyfb n inzcver naq uvf Fver – V svaq gur jnl ur snyyf va ybir jvgu Ohssl (orsber ur unf n fbhy) cerggl haernyvfgvp. Ur'f n inzcver, ur fubhyq nyjnlf jnag gb rng ure orsber jnagvat gb, yvxr, phqqyr. V qba'g ungr gung cneg bs gur fubj – va snpg, V yvxr gur fgbelyvarf rgp gung pbzr bs vg – ohg vg qbrfa'g ernyyl svg jvgu gur pnaba urer.

          Whfg n yvggyr nqqraqhz. 😉

          • rabbitape says:

            I'm not sure if the argument is that "vampires do not have feelings," but rather "a vampire does not have a conscience" and "vampires are not the same people that they were before they became vampires."

            As far as your rot13 comment, I'll have some thoughts on that when it happens. 🙂

          • ladililn says:

            Lbh xabj, gur svefg gvzr V jngpurq gur fubj, V gubhtug Fcvxr'f fhqqra ybir sbe Ohssl jnf fbzrguvat gb qb jvgu gur Vavgvngvir zrffvat jvgu uvf oenva, nf vg jnf erirnyrq gur fnzr rcvfbqr ur jrag va naq gevrq gb unir gur puvc erzbirq. Ybbxvat onpx, vg qbrfa'g znxr gung zhpu frafr nf n gurbel naq jnf boivbhfyl arire erirnyrq gb or gung, ohg gung'f jung znqr zr gbgnyyl npprcg gung inzcver!Fcvxr jbhyq or va ybir jvgu Ohssl. Vg jnfa'g UVZ, vg jnf whfg fbzrguvat gurl qvq gb uvf oenva!

            • @Ivana2804 says:

              Jryy gur Vavgvngvir qvq qb fbzrguvat gb uvz… gurl chg n puvc va uvf oenva, naq ur pbhyqa'g or n shapgvbavat zbafgre nalzber. Fb ur fgnegrq unatvat bhg jvgu gur Fpbbovrf, svtugvat qrzbaf fvapr gung'f gur bayl ur pbhyq qb, naq ur unq n uhtr vqragvgl pevfvf fvapr ur pbhyqa'g trg gur puvc bhg naq or n zbafgre naq qvqa'g xabj jung ryfr gb or. Naq nf n erfhyg, uvf bofrffvba jvgu Ohssl fgnegrq gheavat sebz ungr gb ybir (naq ng svefg, vg jnf n frysvfu glcr bs "ybir").

              Vg znxrf cresrpg frafr gb zr. Gur Vavgvngvir "znqr uvz" snyy va ybir jvgu Ohssl whfg nf zhpu nf gur Tlcfvrf "znqr" Natry snyy va ybir jvgu ure. Gur vqrn gung gur Vavgvngvir jbhyq sbe fbzr ernfba jnag uvz gb snyy va ybir jvgu Ohssl be gung vg jbhyq rira or cbffvoyr gb qb znxrf ab frafr gb zr.

              • ladililn says:

                Yvxr V fnvq, vg znxrf ab frafr jura V guvax nobhg vg abj, ohg vg jnf jung V nffhzrq gur svefg gvzr V jngpurq vg, jvgubhg ernyyl guvaxvat nobhg vg gbb zhpu. Ng gur gvzr V gubhtug vg jnf n angheny vasrerapr jr (gur ivrjre) jrer fhccbfrq gb or znxvat.

                V'z abg fnlvat vg qbrfa'g znxr nal frafr nf vg vf va pnaba sbe Fcvxr gb unir snyyra va ybir jvgu Ohssl rvgure. Zreryl gung jura V svefg jngpurq vg, V gubhtug gur Vavgvngvir jnf jul.

          • @Ivana2804 says:

            Well, the whole "vampires do not have feelings (if they do not have a soul)" actually makes no sense, since every vampire we've ever seen clearly has feelings.

            Vg'f cerggl jrveq gb pevgvpvmr Fcvxr'f fgbel sbe pbagenqvpgvat fbzrguvat gung jnf arire nalguvat ohg fbzr crbcyr'f snaba.

    • My take on the whole demon-possessing-the-body thing is that, yes, the person is dead and their body is just a vehicle, but because the demon retains the human's memories, the human's experiences can affect the demon. Basically, it's what the demon's personality is built off of. It's also my head-canon that the demon possession magnifies the more pronounced personality traits of the possessed.

      Drusilla's mind was driven to insanity and then the demon took over that mind. Drusilla's insanity (i.e. her mind) is connected to Angel because he made her insane and her demon is connected to Angel because he is her sire. I think both of these attribute to her behavior, especially her "attraction" to Angel.

      • @Ivana2804 says:

        Well if you have someone's MIND, then how are you not that person?

        It looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck…

        • Well the argument they make on Buffy is that a person is their soul, not their mind, and that the soul exits the body after becoming a vampire.

          It is rather confusing because a person is essentially their memories, so the fact that the vampires retain their human memories should technically mean that they are the same person, but without their human morals.

          I like to think of it as more the demon's consciousness is dominant over the human memories, but those memories can still have a small influence on the possessor…

          I feel like I've delved into yeerk territory now.

          • Skyweir says:

            Gur jubyr "n inzcver vf abg n crefba" guvat vf zbfgyl Jngpure cebcntnaqn, gur jnl V frr vg. V zrna,Natry uvzfrys pbagenqvpgf vg yngre ba (va sbe vafgnapr Qbccyrtnatynaq), nf qb Fcvxr (naq bguref). Frrzf gb zr gung n crefbaf zrzbevrf ner onfvpnyyl gur crefba, fvapr gur bayl nygreangvir vf gung lbh jbhyq or gur fnzr crefba ertneqyrff bs jung unccraf gb lbh va yvsr.

            Gur rguvpf bs Ohssl ner irel zhexl nf n jubyr. Inzcverf ner, ertneqyrff bs gurve eryngvbafuvc jvgu gurve ubfg-obql, pbafpvbhf naq fncvrag orvatf. Va zbfg flfgrz bs rguvpf, gurl fubhyq unir na vaurevg evtug gb yvsr rdhny gb gung bs uhznaf. Lrf, gurl fubhyq or chavfurq sbe pevzrf, ohg abg va nal qvssrerag jnl guna uhznaf. Ohssl vf va snpg n frevny xvyyre, naq fur unf xvyyrq cyragl bs vaabprag inzcverf, jub'f bayl pevzrf vf gb or obea vagb gur obql bs n qrnq uhzna. Fur nggnpxf gurz jura gurl ner arjyl obea naq xvyyf gurz jura gurl svtug onpx, whfgvslvat vg ol gryyvat ure frys gung gurl ner abg erny guvaxvat srryvat orvatf, qrfcvgr nyy rivqrapr cbvagvat gb gur pbagenel.

            • Tbfu, guvf vf na nern gung V srry uvtuyl hardhvccrq gb qvfphff. Gur rguvpf bs inzcver xvyyvat va gur ohsslirefr qbrf orpbzr xvaqn terl, ohg V qba'g guvax vg'f shyy ba zheqre… gur snpg bs gur znggre vf gung inzcverf, ab znggre jung uhzna rzbgvbaf gurl znl srry, fgvyy unir ab dhnyzf xvyyvat crbcyr. Ng nyy. Gurer ner ab Phyyraf va gur ohsslirefr. Gur bayl inzcverf gung orpbzr "tbbq" unir rkgreany snpgbef gung pnhfr gurz gb or fb (phefrq jvgu n fbhy, puvc va gur oenva, rgp.).

              Inzcverf ner qrsvavgryl fragvrag orvatf naq gurer ner rknzcyrf bs tbbq qrzbaf va gur fubj, fb jul abg tbbq inzcverf? V fhccbfr lbh pbhyq znxr na nethzrag gung Ohssl vf grpuavpnyyl fgnxvat vaabprag lbhat inzcverf jura gurl penjy bhg bs gurve tenirf, fvapr gurl unira'g unq n punapr gb npghnyyl nggnpx nalbar… ohg vf gung n evfx gung fur pna npghnyyl gnxr? Jnvgvat hagvy nsgre gurl unir n ivpgvz orsber svtugvat gurz? V guvax jr pna nyy nterr gung vg'f orggre sbe Ohssl gb nffhzr gung gur "inzcver-glcr qrzba" vf n oerrq juvpu vf haqravnoyl rivy, bgurejvfr jr pna trg vagb fbzr frevbhf zvaqshpx bire urer.

              Jnvg Unezbal jnf n tbbq inzcver jnfa'g fur? Jungrire, V guvax zl urnq-pnaba sbe ure jnf gung ure uhzna zvaq jnf fb pbzcyrgryl qrafr gung vg znqr ure inzcver pbzcyrgryl vapbzcrgrag naq gurersber unezyrff. Lrf. V yvxr gung. Tbbq sbe zr.

              Jul nz V erfcbaqvat jura V'z qehax. Jul.

              • @Ivana2804 says:

                Inzcverf frrz gb unir rivy vzchyfrf sebz gur zbzrag gurl evfr – zbfg bs gurz ner frra vzzrqvngryl nggnpxvat crbcyr naq abar bs gurz ner cebgrfgvat gung gurl'er whfg vaabprag crbcyr jub fubhyqa'g or xvyyrq.

                V qb guvax gurl'er crbcyr, ohg V qba'g guvax Ohssl vf n "frevny xvyyre". N fbyqvre jbhyq or zber npphengr.

    • ladililn says:

      Yeah, this is pretty much my take on it too.

  18. monkeybutter says:

    I agree so much with your paranthetical about Willow/Alyson. Her delivery (and the lines themselves) never fails to make me smile. That scene in the hall with Buffy and Ford, the realization “oh, that’s what that song is about,” all of it, is completely brilliant.

    And Ms Calendar, taking Giles to Monster Trucks? I would pay to watch him squirm through that.

    • enigmaticagentscully says:

      I swear she's just trolling Giles with the most inappropriate dates she can think of.

      I love it.

      • cait0716 says:

        I love that she just throws gender roles out the window. We've seen Xander struggle with his masculinity and Buffy struggle with wanting to be "just a girl". But the adults are rather amazing. Jenny wears skirts and practices magic and attends Burning Man and teachers computers and loves football and makes the first move with Giles and then takes him to Monster Trucks. She just does exactly what she wants because it makes her happy.

        • hassibah says:

          I think they're also trying to make her contrast with what people would stereotype a modern witch/wicca as-usually a hippie chick that's all about mother earth and probably meditates a lot, instead having her be really tech smart and into football, I also like this twist.

        • enigmaticagentscully says:

          At the risk of becoming a cliche…THIS.

          I have fallen slightly in love with Jenny. *sigh* Talking about those silly teenage hormones; I think I use all mine up on fictional characters.

    • hassibah says:

      Before I ever saw Buffy, I used to give Luna Lovegood basically the same inflection that Aly does when she talks. When I found out she had a rl American counterpart, it was pretty rad.

  19. enigmaticagentscully says:

    I'm with you on the whole 'love' thing, Mark. I guess it's subjective but I always rather assumed you'd need to know someone for a significant amount of time before you really were 'in love' with them.

    At least have a few conversations. Go on a couple of dates. Find out some common interests. Whatever.

    Another thing that I forgot to mention is that my love of Spike is increasing exponentially every episode. He has some of the BEST lines in this show.

    • tanbarkie says:

      Speaking from my own experience, you definitely don't need to know someone for a significant amount of time before you THINK you're really in love with them.

      Especially if you're a hormonally-charged teenager (of either sex).

    • Dru says:

      Spike is my tv boyfriend, I am so glad other people are on board with the liking.

    • Seventh_Star says:

      it's nearly impossible to not love spike. the only tv character that ranks above him, for me, is the 10th doctor, and they can switch places depending on the day.

  20. Alex says:

    Mark, maybe your vampire friend does have a facebook, but instead of using his or her real name, he/she goes by "Lord Darkula" or something! I know people who do stuff like this, which to me makes no sense because isn't facebook supposed to help you find people? But hey to each his own.

    • SelphieFairy says:

      I know some people who change the spellings of their name(Mindee instead of Mindy, for example) or use their middle name as a fake last name or other weird things for work reasons. They don't want employers to find them or something I guess? But maybe you're talking about something else entirely…

    • calimie says:

      Exactly what I was thinking, that he was going by his vampire name. Maybe you can find some of his friends and see if someone has a weird name.

      I do that. I have a facebook with my actual name completely locked down and one with a fake name where I friend people. I don't want to be found by people I'm not already talking to and it's a good way to cut down on Internet trails you'd have to clean up for job interviews. Oh, and my pic is Twilight Sparkle.
      IDK, I'm very careful of what I post online (few photos, none tagged). The Internet never forgets.

  21. tehrevel says:

    I always assumed it was sorta like Dr Who is. You know where stuff happens between episodes and we don't see it. You'd see Rose and Ten step out of the Tardis laughing about something they'd done or reference an adventure that we never saw in the tv series, maybe it was in a book or audio drama or maybe it was just made up for some incidental dialgoue.

    With Buffy I think you're just supposed to assume the characters hang out outside the stuff we see, like Angel and Buffy stake some vamps and get some coffee, Willow and Buffy have a sleepover and Willow gets her Hermione on about the schoolwork Buffy misses, that sorta thing. I mean if you were to just go by onscreen stuff then they became best friends very quickly but if you imagine that maybe a week or two go by between episodes then them being so close by episode 3 or 4 of S1 makes sense.

    • Karen says:

      I do think that we're supposed to assume that Angel and Buffy are hanging out outside of the episodes, but… idk. It's just hard to get super invested in them as a couple when we're not actually seeing them hang out and fall in love.

      • misterbernie says:

        Also, from what we've seen so far, it's kinda difficult to imagine them actually hanging out in some capacity. With Buffy, Willow and Xander, yeah, I can see them studying/dancing/watching sports of some sort, but I can't really see Buffy and Angel kicking back and … doing anything.

        • etherealclarity says:

          I know that's part of why I was never a big Buffy/Angel shipper. I don't think I could ever fall in love with someone who I couldn't just hang with and who didn't make me laugh. But I'm told that a lot of high school relationships have this kind of Romeo & Juliet melodrama, so I'm probably the weird one.

  22. quenstalof says:

    -wow that's some terrible mom to leave her kid so late
    -"I touch myself" wow awkward. hehe willow.
    -uh oh. he saw her in action. I'm betting he doesn't make it through the episode. I'm calling that right now.
    -what?! he knows about vampires? um. probably this is not good.
    -Willow! you are my favorite. no one can take that from me. omg her pink bunny slippers!
    -fuck. honed my brooding skills. what? really? He actually said that?
    -if there's nothing weird…hey that's weird
    -aww Giles thinks Ford is cute
    -"You have too many thoughts." This is a problem with which I am familiar.
    -if he gets vamped my prediction holds true
    -damn that's fucked up, angel. This makes me really interested in Drusilla and Spike though. If Angel was the one who turned her why is it that Spike is taking care of her?
    -ugh I thought it was the girl who had a terminal illness. should have known.
    -I think this is the most vampirey display we've seen so far. bleh
    -oh shit she killed him!?
    -oh I guess not. Well he's still not making it because the vampires will.
    -Giles's lie made me cry.

  23. tigerpetals says:

    This is a good Willow episode. I'm not so much "so cute!" as I am, well, enjoying the awkwardness because of empathy. Only I don't make good jokes. I didn't get that song realization moment for a while.

    Yeah, no, I don't really understand why Buffy already loves him. Or maybe she's just saying it without it being super-serious, or they've been hanging out between episodes. Rira gubhtu V'z n Onatry fuvccre, jub qbrf abg cersre gb ivrj guvf eryngvbafuvc nf grrantrel svefg ybir -nf n jubyr naljnl, V npprcg gung fbzr bs gur guvatf Ohssl qbrf ner grrantrel, cnegvphyneyl va gur rcvfbqr Natry- V fgvyy guvax gur vqrn bs gurz orvat va ybir abj vf n ovg sbeprq vs vg'f frevbhf.

    I've never been in a romantic or sexual relationship though, so my understanding of that kind of love is limited to observation, learning through reading, pop culture, and thoughts related to empathy and kindess and ethics. And feminism.

    Also, this is generally lauded as when Buffy started having moral ambiguity, but if you analyze the show or even glance at some of the season one villains, it's not. It's just the first time the moral ambiguity was an explicit theme in the plot and dialogue.

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      Well, there's also the fact that Angel elicited the "I love you" from her. It's not like she just felt the need to say it. She had to say either yes or no and she thought for a moment and then said said yes.

      She probably wasn't sure if she was in love with him up to this point and maybe hasn't even thought about it, but he made it say it, either way. It's most likely the moment when she first told it to herself as well.

      Vg'f nyfb vagrerfgvat gung gur jnl FZT cynlrq vg vf rknpgyl gur fnzr jnl fur yngre cynlrq Ohssl gryyvat Fcvxr "V ybir lbh" va Pubfra. Lrg V'ir frra crbcyr fnl gung gur jnl fur fnvq vg qvqa'g frrz pbaivapvat va Pubfra (orpnhfr fur qvqa'g fnl vg gur jnl fur gryyf VYL gb ure sevraqf naq snzvyl!), ohg gurl qba'g fnl gur fnzr guvat nobhg Yvr gb Zr, juvpu frrzf yvxr fvzcyl n znggre bs gurve oryvrsf naq rkcrpgngvbaf. Yvr gb Zr jnf gur bayl bgure vafgnapr bs Ohssl gryyvat fbzrbar VYL va n ebznagvp frafr *sbe gur svefg gvzr*. Very spoilery link:

      • tigerpetals says:

        Probably but I'm still not sure what to think about it.

        V qvqa'g xabj gurer jnf fcrpvsvp qrongr nobhg gur npgvat pubvprf sbe gung zbzrag. Ohg, V'ir orra gbyq orsber ol n Fchssl fuvccre gung gur ernfba gurer'f qrongr nobhg jurgure be abg Ohssl ybirq Fcvxr vf orpnhfr bs ubj gurl jrer fbyq nf n pbhcyr. Sebz ure cbvag bs ivrj gurl jrera'g chfurq nf na boivbhf pbhcyr yvxr Onatry.

        Bs pbhefr, gurer ner qvssrerag oryvrsf naq rkcrpgngvbaf nobhg gung gbb.

        Nyfb, V'ir frra gung qbhoyr fgnaqneq nccyvrq gb nanylmvat obgu fuvcf sebz n Fchssl cbvag bs ivrj. Vg nccrnef gb or n erdhvfvgr sbe fuvccvat tbttyrf.

  24. Emma76 says:

    "Natry'f vairfgvtngvba"… fb pybfr gb Natry Vairfgvtngvbaf! ururur.

    • tanbarkie says:

      "Fb ubj pbzr V qba'g jnag gb ovgr lbh? Naq jul nz V svtugvat bgure inzcverf? V zhfg or n aboyr inzcver. N tbbq thl, ba n zvffvba bs erqrzcgvba. V uryc gur urycyrff. V'z n inzcver jvgu n fbhy."

      Orfg Fcvxr dhbgr rire? DHVGR CBFFVOYL

    • notemily says:

      Natry Vairfgvtngvbaf, jr ubcr lbh'er urycyrff!

  25. Ryan Lohner says:

    Buffy versus the Twilight fans! Seriously, that's all I can think of watching this one now.

  26. whedonzombie says:


    Hilarious. I just embarrassed myself by literally laughing out loud. Oh, well.

    Score one more episode for the awesomeness of Willow! If someone would splice together a string of scenes of just Willow… I'd totally watch that show.
    I have to admit to having mixed feelings about Buffy staking Ford at the end of the episode. I kind of hated his character, but I've always really liked Jason Behr. What a waste.

    I also had to laugh at Znex'f pbzzrag nobhg "Natry'f vairfgvtngvba". Vf guvf zna cflpuvp?

  27. hassibah says:

    Yeah it's really nice to have some moral complexity and the idea that not everything is so cut and dry in this universe. And that one of Angel's victims is immortal and can literally make him answer to what he did for the rest of his life. So much better than seeing him mope. I gotta be honest the idea that Dru was attracted to him did not occur to me at all, I just thought Buffy was keeping up her tradition of being jealous of everyone Angel speaks to. Maybe I'm just oblivious to these things, but if this kind of jealousy about just having conversations is a normal thing to do then I guess it explains a lot of confusing rudeness I've seen from people when I was single, but to me this is all really weird.

    And Jenny is hot, again! And Giles' end monologue kfjgfjg.

    Also, Xander called Angel a bossy cow (WTF but I don't even care because WTf), I'm also bored with the constant writing him as jealous. FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO WRITE, IN THE MEANTIME I WILL FIND OTHER THINGS TO COMPLAIN ABOUT.
    That dude at the Vampire fanboy club that was dressed exactly like Angel was a very nice touch as well(this whole plot is an obvious nudge to goth kids but now that we have True Blood this is, like, 100x as funny.)
    Above all though Buffy is amazing here and just cause the show is named after her doesn't mean I can't gush about her. Like her monologue to Ford about how she feels sorry for him but she's still going to fight him and figuring out to hold Drusilla hostage was really smart but now that I mention it I can't really remember when she found out that Dru was Spike's love interest. But whatever. Smart.

    • enigmaticagentscully says:

      And Jenny is hot, again! And Giles' end monologue kfjgfjg.

      I sense in you a possible ally…am I not the only person who finds both Giles and Jenny extremely attractive?
      I mean, I would quite happily date either of them. And I'm going with the word 'date' here because this is a family friendly comment. 😛

    • ladililn says:

      Yeah, I saw that as Buffy's jealousy too, not Drusilla coming onto Angel. That was just Drusilla being Drusilla, and Buffy's reaction was of the same type that led to her abandoning a date because Angel was laughing at something Cordelia said.

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      "and figuring out to hold Drusilla hostage was really smart but now that I mention it I can't really remember when she found out that Dru was Spike's love interest. But whatever. Smart. "

      That was what Giles read to her from the Watcher's Diary: "Drusilla, sometime paramour of Spike", with the picture of Drusilla, which explained to Buffy who she was. (Another epic fail for the Watchers and their books. Seriously, that's all they knew about Drusilla? That she was a "sometime" girlfriend of Spike? Boo for their stupid male-centric records. Gurl frrzrq gb xabj arkg gb abguvat nobhg Qneyn, gbb. Gur jbzra whfg qvqa'g frrz vzcbegnag gb gurz rkprcg nf gur thlf' tveysevraqf, rira gubhtu gurl jrer nf qnatrebhf nf gurl jrer.

      • hassibah says:

        Yeah it was pointed out to me. I didn't put any thought to it untill I wrote the comment this afternoon, assuming she got all her info from Angel, I forgot about Giles. Silly me!
        Truth about only mentioning her through Spike, though I guess you could just interpret that as the watchers' historians all being stuffy and stuck in the victorian era. Ng yrnfg gurl riraghnyyl svyyrq bhg ure fgbel, ohg vg'f irel gryyvat. Lrg fur fgvyy unf ybnqf zber crefbanyvgl guna Natry VZB.

  28. Mary Sue says:

    Obviously, I’ve never dated a vampire that’s a couple hundred centuries old. (Or have I??? OH GOD WHAT IF.)

    Just going by my previous relationships, either I
    a) have not dated any couple-century-year-old vamps, or
    b) couple-century-year-old-vamps really are as dull and clean living as Ms. Meyer paints them.

    In conclusion:
    If I decide I should start dating again, I need to date more exciting people.

    Anyway, time for Important Milestones in Mary Sue's Emotional Development: As I may have mentioned during the Doctor Who stuff, the first woman I ever fell in love with was Sarah Jane Smith. The first woman I ever admitted to being in love with to another person?

    Willow Rosenberg.
    After this episode.
    On an online forum.

    Fb, lrf, zl snibevgr rcvfbqr bs Ohssl rire vf Qbccrytnatynaq. I AM SHALLOW AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

  29. etherealclarity says:

    Oh, this episode. The conversation at the end between Giles and Buffy is one I adore so much. I mean, sure, the world of Sunnydale seems like a much more black and white world than the one we live in, because it has actual EVIL monsters and REAL SOULS to deal with, but understanding that the world actually has shades of gray is something that seems so central to growing up and maturing, and it's both saddening and enlightening at the same time. Very poinent.

    Also, LOVE this:
    Xander: "Angel was in your bedroom?"
    Willow: "Ours is a forbidden love."

    This is especially adorable when you consider the anxiety that Angel's presence gave her in the first place and the casual flippancy with which she says this line.

    Xander's line about Buffy not knowing any fat guys filled me with some rage.

    Now I love Xander. I might not like everything Xander does, but I know that I can occasionally come across as a Xander apologist (especially on this site).

    But that line really pissed me off. It had multiple layers of dickishness. NOT COOL XANDER. NOT COOL.

    As for love and trust, I know that I personally would have a hard time loving someone whom I did not trust. But I think part of that is a maturity thing. Though it is definitely true that you could already love and trust someone and have them break your trust, which is I think closer to what is happening with Buffy and Angel. The show acknowledged that Buffy "loved" Angel in Season 1 (though she never said the words out loud, I don't think). And maybe she has been growing to trust him, but when he lied about where he'd been that night, whatever trust she had was broken.

    Now, whether or not Buffy's "love" for Angel is love or "love" is maybe up for debate. I personally think it is currently something closer to infatuation, but I never fell in love as a teenager despite having a serious-ish long term relationship at 16-17 years old. So I don't know if me not understanding that kind of love is my own lack of experiences or a more truthful look at teenage infatuation.

    • Xander's line about Buffy not knowing any fat guys filled me with some rage.

      Now I love Xander. I might not like everything Xander does, but I know that I can occasionally come across as a Xander apologist (especially on this site).
      I'm totally with you. I was looking up quotes from this episode and I saw that and I was like WHAT WHAT XANDER WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU STOP SAYING STUPID SHIT. Jesus, way to make it hard for me to love you, dude. It's annoying because I think Mark's right and it is just lazy writing. Or consistent characterization, I don't know. But it is getting pretty tiresome for Xander to make some remark about EVERY GUY BUFFY HAS ANY INTERACTION WITH. Keep it to yourself, sir. Or at least be wittier about it. Make your hopeless jealousy more entertaining.

      • etherealclarity says:

        I think generally his comments have been less outright jealousy lately and more general sniping, partially because Xander seems to dislike Angel to the point where it may not be entirely connected with Buffy. But that "fat guys" comment was going way too far. It made me cringe not only because of the implication that Buffy will fall for any attractive dude in her life regardless of character or personality, but also at the idea that she COULDN'T fall in love with someone who was heavier. And it was stated in a rude way. UGH. Just, no.

        V jvyy or tengrshy sbe gur gvzr jura ur svanyyl trgf n eryngvbafuvc bs uvf bja naq fgbcf gur pbafgnag pbzzragf. Juvpu fubhyq or cerggl fbba, evtug? V unira'g jngpurq jvgu guvf xvaq bs fpehgval va n juvyr, ohg V guvax gur pbzzragf fgbc nsgre ur znxrf bhg jvgu Pbeql va Jung'f Zl Yvar Cg 2?

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      "As for love and trust, I know that I personally would have a hard time loving someone whom I did not trust. But I think part of that is a maturity thing."

      Naq jura Ohssl terj hc naq orpnzr zber zngher, fur oryvrirq gur fnzr guvat, gung erny ybir vf vzcbffvoyr jvgubhg gehfg (nf fur fnvq va Frrvat Erq).

    • etherealclarity says:

      (Psst – that's probably something of an expectation spoiler so you may want to edit or delete it.)

  30. Jenny_M says:

    I can only speak for myself, but I said "I love you" to my first boyfriend after like…a week. He turned into a stalker, I cried a lot, I haven't said "I love you" since.

    High school = weird emotional surges and all sorts of inappropriate emotional reactions to things.

    • cait0716 says:

      I did that minus the stalker part. He did dump me after two weeks and dated my best friend another girl for six months. That was fun.

      It didn't manage to sour me on love for too long, though

      • Jenny_M says:

        Hee, my parents told me I couldn't date this one anymore, then the stalking started. It lasted through college when I didn't even live there anymore. My dad (who is 6'8" and not a small guy) eventually was like "son, you need to STOP COMING HERE."

        Needless to say I've been careful ever since!

    • You totally Mosby'd him!

  31. clodia_risa says:

    Yes, Buffy and Angel tell each other that they love each other much earlier than I find warranted. However, and this doesn’t excuse Angel, I find that a lot of heterosexual high-school relationships are pretty quick to jump to that word. “This is the most intense feeling I’ve ever felt! It must be love!” No, kids, it’s hormones.

    Not that I didn’t do the same when I was 16. Especially when it seemed like fate was keeping us apart. My life, it was so tragic. [rolls eyes at my younger self]

  32. @hazakaza says:


    V nz dhbgvat gurfr rknpg jbeqf onpx ng lbh, Znex, bapr lbh uvg Frnfba Fvk.

    • Noybusiness says:

      Hu, jul? Ur arire fgbccrq orvat jvggl.

      • @hazakaza says:

        Ur genqrf n srj yriryf bs fanex va rkpunatr sbe n srj yriryf va jrveq fgnyxre pehfu, gura genqrf n srj yriryf bs fanex sbe n srj yriryf va ureb, gura genqrf n srj yriryf va fanex sbe n srj yriryf va Bu Tbq Ohssl Jung Ner Lbh Qbvat, naq gura . . . . trgf n fbhy naq vf ol gheaf penml naq cngurgvp? V qhaab, ol gur raq gurer ur jnfa'g rira ertvfgrevat n fvatyr oyvc ba zl fanexbzrgre. V ybir uvf wbhearl nf n punenpgre, V guvax vg'f snfpvangvat, ohg ur'f n pbzcyrgr ybff jura vg pbzrf gb orvat pbzvp eryvrs ol gur raq.

  33. Karen says:

    For some reason, with IntenseDebate, you can leave longer comments with Firefox than with Internet Explorer. Or at least that has been my experience.

  34. clodia_risa says:

    Qnja Guernq!

    Ohssl onaf Qnja sebz rire ernqvat Gjvyvtug. (Bu jnvg, vg’f gbb rneyl.) Fur onaf Qnja sebz Tbgu Pyhof.

    Shegure, Jvyybj jrag gb Qnja gb nfx nobhg Sbeq. Jung orggre fbhepr bs vasbezngvba? Qnja arire yvxrq uvz.

    • MrsGillianO says:

      Qnja ernyyl jnagrq gb tb gb gur Tbgu pyho orpnhfr fur unq n puvyq-pehfu ba Natry naq gubhtug fur'q zrrg zber yvxr uvz gurer, ohg gur jnaanorr inzcf jbhyqa'g gryy ure jurer gb tb orpnhfr fur jnf gbb gval.

  35. purevertigo says:

    It's so funny — your response to Xander is something I've seen over and over again with my gay friends I've watched Buffy with (I'm gay myself) but he's always the emotional "in" for straight guys who watch it — and this aspect of him never annoys them. — Also, while I agree with your thesis about weight and attraction. It would be so silly to NEVER create a character who believes this just because YOU as a writer don't believe it.

    • I'm a straight guy who loves the hell out of Xander, and I'm very annoyed by his behavior at this stage of his development. The insensitivity and hyper-jealousy is not a lovable aspect of his character, and unfortunately, this isn't a point in the series where the writers have given him much more dimension.

  36. Raenef_the_5th says:

    I find that line about fat guys to be ugh because, well, the original actress they cast for Willow was a thicker girl? But here I guess it's just Xander's words, not the writer's belief, but yeah there DOES come a point where you just go heeeey so Joss, can we get more of something else?

    As someone noted above, Angel IS a lot cuter when he's interacting off of other characters who aren't Buffy. He needs more silly.

    Overall, this IS an episode I enjoy a lot for the themes, and the characters. I could see "Buffy and Billy" be a cute item in the past, or super best friends at least, and it was nice to see bits of her life from before Sunnydale. Ford's line about not wanting to date someone so young when they were a grade apart in grade school is hilarious to me, considering who Buffy's interested in now.

    • SelphieFairy says:

      Riff Regan didn't get cast as Willow because she sucked as Willow. Alyson Hannigan came in and read all her lines with much more cheerful emotions, in contrast to EVERY single other person who interpreted "nerdy" Willow as "waaah I'm so pathetic and lonely." Riff Regan was not right for the part and it had absolutely nothing with the way she looked. Watch the unaired pilot and you'll see that she just lacks the life that Alyson gave to the character and what makes Willow so great.

      • Raenef_the_5th says:

        Oh, I'm not dissing on Alyson Hannigan's superior performance (because she is utterly perfect, who would say she wasn't??), but I wanted to note that they did choose someone who wasn't considered traditionally pretty at first, and so I think there's something there that implies the writers themselves don't think that way in regards to weight or looks, but it is the characters's opinions themselves when comments like that happen. However, if it had been the same actress, Xander's line would have been unreasonably shameful indeed.

        Another illuminating thing, if I recall from interviews, is that the kid in "The Pack" that the Pack teased for being overweight was originally pretty stereotypical – the fat kid with a candy bar being alone and sad. But Joss went up to it and sad, no, give the kid an apple, and some other kids who are his friends to be around him. So in essence the show didn't blame the kid for his weight problems, they're blamed the pack for being jerks.

        • SelphieFairy says:

          Ooh, It was kind of unclear what you were saying about the writers. But I see what you mean now. Sorry if I came off kind of harsh. It bugs me A LOT when people say they re-cast Willow because of looks, since it's so unfair to Alyson. Glad you don't think so.

          • Raenef_the_5th says:

            I apologize! You're right, I wasn't being very clear at all, but thank you for helping me clear that up.

            Alyson really was wonderful. She really makes Willow, and I wish Willow had more scenes with everyone in the cast ever (especially Angel, I suppose). If guys can be Just Friends, as they're going with Xander–>the rest of the group, then surely a vampire with a soul can be a pal too.

    • lawrence_s says:

      I think the worst part about the line is that it's not just Xander's words, but probably poor execution of meta-commentary on Joss Whedon's part.

      Joss has observed before that Sunnydale High is rather unrealistic in that the students pretty much conform to the norms of Hollywood in their physical appearance, but aren't really representative of the real world. (I think he says it in one of the early commentaries, possibly WttH.) Which makes the line an ill-advised attempt at inside-humour that fell flat because it was said in a very judgemental context by a character, especially one who already has a history of making judgemental remarks.

      Had it been said more ironically and not judgementally (not sure there even is a way to do that in-show), I think Joss would have actually made an interesting (and unfortunate) point about the nature of television and movies.

  37. theduck says:

    I made notes!

    – "What will your mummy sing when they find your body?" Drusilla is so creepy and I love it <3

    – Awww, Jenny/Giles <3333

    – "Oh, THAT'S what that song was about!" Willow ilu

    – Is the wannabe-vampire club the same set as The Bronze…?

    – Willow's bedtime-shirt is adorable <3

    – I think I have a crush on Willow… which makes 6 character-crushes from this show now. Damnit.

    – Seriously, Willow is SO CUTE.

    – "I'm gonna have to go with Dead Boy on this one." "Could you not call me that?" Made me giggle, for some reason.

    – I laughed so hard when that guy walked by in the same outfit as Angel. Somehow I missed that the first time I watched this episode. That'll teach me to text and watch TV at the same time.

    – Awww, Jenny took Giles to see Monster Trucks!

    – I ship Spike/Drusilla really hard, just sayin'.

    – "Maybe I'm the one who should decide." GO BUFFY!

    – I love how Spike's willing to let his entire plan fall apart without hesitation to save Drusilla's life. That is why he's my favorite villain okay

    – I wish I had a Giles <333

  38. Katarina says:

    I love this episode. Sometimes it feels like dark stuff is inserted into TV shows so that the writers can go "Ooh, look at us, we're so DARK AND GRITTY!" but this isn't like that. It's logical and believable and absolutely awful in a good way.

    But to be honest, I think the main reason I love it is because it's the first time we see Punagreryyr/Yvyl/Naar, jub vf bar bs zl snibhevgr zvabe punenpgref va gur Wbffirefr. Fur unf fhpu nznmvat punenpgre qrirybczrag va irel srj rcf, sebz orvat n qvgm jvyyvat gb oryvrir nalguvat, gb orvat gur svany erzvaqre bs Natry'f rcvcunal: "Vs abguvat lbh qb znggref, gura nyy gung znggref vf jung lbh qb." Fur raqf hc univat fhpu gerzraqbhf fgeratgu naq pbhentr, jvgubhg nal cbjref be fcrpvny fxvyyf.

    Naq gung tvirf gur rc n ubcrshy rqtr, nsgre nyy, orpnhfr whfg yvxr ubj lbh arire xabj jub'yy ghea bhg gb or n ivyynva, lbh arire xabj jub'yy ghea bhg gb or n ureb.

  39. tanbarkie says:

    I like to think of Chantarelle as a stand-in for Bella Swann.

    Specifically, I like to think that "Bella" is short for "Portabella," and that vampire groupies always chose to name themselves after mushrooms.

  40. t09yavosaur says:

    -Those spinny things are the most fun/most dangerous playground rides ever.
    -Dru is out and about.
    -Poor kid, don't keep talking.
    -Yay, Angel to the rescue.
    -Please talk it out Buffy, no secrets nonsense please?
    -Giles has a daaa-aaate.
    -Passing notes in class, tsk tsk.
    -Well that conversation was awkward, with the hand-holding, the intense eye contact, and the weird voice pitches.
    -I like the confirmation that Xander prefers Angel when it comes to Buffy's admirers.
    -This equals “secrets nonsense” people.
    -Oh, but she acknowledges him as a maybe boyfriend so that's ok I guess.
    -Ford's got a tiny hoop earring, I don't know if it really works for him.
    -There is a (fake) vampire Bronze?
    -Escalation Angel. Other girls bedrooms now?
    And stalking Buffy's guy friend. Granted he's a bad guy but still.
    -He's got a bit too much lipstick on.
    -LOL. Working on his Brooding, at least he is self-aware.
    -Aww, Angel and Willow should act like BFFs always.
    -That horizontally striped sweater is glorious enough for a Harry Potter movie.
    -I want to watch Spike chasing birds.
    -Why is your door open like that Buffy?
    -And Angel doesn't close it behind him.
    -Yes! Hash is out!
    -Oh Willow, Troll On.
    -Just punch him.
    -That is not an excuse for offering to murder your friend, Ford.
    -Did they actually turned him? Or was that a different vampire?

    • Meltha says:

      They actually turned him. Buffy dusted Ford. So… Spike is a man of his word at the end, which means there's at least one person in this who told the truth.

    • cait0716 says:

      That basement. I'm sure it's the Bronze set shot dressed up and shot from a different angle. They didn't have the biggest budget on this show…

  41. settlingforhistory says:

    I honestly really like this episode.
    I like that:
    – we get a "human villian", because you don't need to be soulless to be a selfish b*****
    – Buffy can understand Ford's fear of death, but ultimatly loses her respect for him because he is willing
    to lose his soul for a longer live and sacrifice the live of other for it
    – that we see Angel dooing something, besides brooding and that he interacts with the Slayeretts
    "Natry’f vairfgvtngvba" Uvuv, fb gung'f jurer uvf qrgrpgvir pnerre fgnegf.
    – Jenny and Giles, they are so absoloutely adorable.
    – Jenny dragging Giles to a monster truck show, I wish we could have seen that
    – the idea that in a world with real (un)life vampires it is really idiotic to be a vampire fangirl
    – Spike the ultimate softy
    – Spike, who always gets the best lines "Are you all asleep? Or did we finally find a restaurant that
    delivers?" (Erzvaqf zr bs "unccl zrnyf ba yrtf")
    -Angel's past, more past please! What he did to Drusilla is so disturbing, but it shows he was really,
    really evil and it is something Buffy has to learn how to deal with
    – Buffy doesn't save Ford, not that I hated the guy, it just would have been to happy an ending
    – Buffy and Giles at the cementary, bonding over losing a friend, so depressing, but I like how he is
    there to comfort her (Vg'f rrel ubj fvzvyne guvf fprar vf gb gur raq bs Cnffvbaf ng Wraal'f tenir.
    Vg'f avpr gubhtu, gung obgu pna qenj fgeratgu sebz rnpu bgure.)

    So, good episode, gur arkg guerr jvyy cebonoyl oybj Znex'f zvaq.
    Ur pna arire or cercnerq, ohg arvgure ner jr sbe uvf ernpgvbaf. FB RKPVGR!

  42. jenesaispas21 says:

    Since I haven't seen discussion on this point yet … Hallelujah, Mark, for your observations on the "fat" thing. It bothers the everloving hell out of me when people try to reason their way around that kind of gross behavior (what you described as the "wingman" or "non-threat" thing) by saying things like "well, you can CONTROL whether you're fat or not, so it's totally different from a disability or straight out saying they're ugly" First of all – not always true, but more importantly, even if it was true, who cares? The fact that someone makes choices different from yours makes it ok to TREAT them like they're somehow less important/attractive/worthy of consideration/respect than you?

    Just…no. The pervasive acceptance of this kind of behavior needs to stop.

  43. bearshorty says:

    I very much agree on your point about love – that is why I, even as a child, rolled my eyes at fairy tales and other stories where characters proclaim their love immediately ("Romeo and Juliet" I'm side-eyeing you right now). Which is why "Beauty and the Beast" is my favorite of the fairy tales, although there are obvious problems there too. But at the same time Buffy is a teenage girl and she is a bit less cautious at the moment.

    Rirel gvzr V erjngpu guvf rcvfbqr jura Ohssl fnlf gung fur ybirf Natry qrfcvgr abg gehfgvat uvz V synfu gb yngre rcvfbqrf jvgu Fcvxr jurer fur gryyf uvz fur pna'g ybir uvz orpnhfr fur qbrfa'g gehfg uvz. Natry qvq n ahzore gurer naq Ohssl arire frcnengrf ybir naq gehfg ntnva.

    I'm really glad you are doing these reviews because no matter how many times I saw this episode I never thought about all the other lies going on in the story – I can appreciate this episode on more levels now.

  44. beckaboomer says:

    This episode is fairly dark, but I love it. SMG has some really nice line readings in that confrontation with Ford. "Well, I do feel sorry for you. And if those vampires come in here and start feeding, I'll kill you myself." Ouch!

    Jealous!Xander is incredibly annoying, I agree with you Mark. I think the writers were stuck in a rut with his character, or something, because he has awesome moments and then reverts back to this jerk I would never want to hang out with. It makes me sad.

    That opening with Drusilla is creepy as hell. I love how straight that moment is played when she asks, "What will your mummy sing when they find your body?" and the kid is like.. too scared to be scared. It's like he can't comprehend what's happening just yet. Lucky Angel came along just then!

    Angel/Buffy… yeah, it's a little soon for the ILU stage, but I'll concede that Buffy's life is full of extreme circumstances and with her being a teenager, everything is just MORE. I love Angel admitting that he honed his brooding skills. It's great that he's so self-aware, you know?

    Aw, Giles. Nice lying there, at the end.

  45. Chelsey says:


    I think you have pinpointed my reason for not shipping Buffy/Angel

  46. pica_scribit says:

    Does anyone else wish that the Sunset Club had been called the Twilight Club? Because that would just have been way too goddamn funny.

    • Meltha says:

      Well, it's pretty dang close. Plus Wbff fb jrag gurer ol anzvat gur ivyynva va gur frnfba 8 pbzvpf Gjvyvtug. V zrna, frevbhfyl, gung pnaabg or n pbvapvqrapr.

      • Noybusiness says:

        Vg vf. Ur unq ab vqrn jura ur pnzr hc jvgu gur anzr. Ohg ur qvq yrnea nobhg vg naq znxr na va-wbxr va gur ynfg nep.

  47. Meltha says:

    Concerning Xander's never-ending jealousy of anyone Buffy dates: no, it's not healthy or likable, but dang is it realistic. I've known guys like this, particularly in high school. There definitely were guys who thought if they just "defended their turf" over some girl they liked, eventually she'd wear down and realize that he was the one for her. Generally it descended into the guys coming to resent whatever girl they'd obsessed over and deciding to bad mouth her all over the place, often in a really bizarre attempt to make her a social outcast so she'd think she couldn't do better than him. Again, ugly, but accurate.

  48. Beri says:

    I was also thrown by Buffy telling Angel she loved him in this episode (I did not remember it at all). It even managed to top the "when you kiss me I want to die" conversation in Reptile Boy. It still seemed like they were just getting to know each other and these really intense conversations just came out of nowhere. I have mixed feelings about it. I question if the writers were just lazy and decided to tell us they love each rather than show how it developed.

    At the same time, I don't think it's completely implausible that they just had strong feelings for each other that grew very quickly and not in a conventional (as in actually spending time with each other) way. Buffy's identity as a slayer really limits her relationship possibilities (the secrecy of it as well as the hours). The fact that Angel can be part of that aspect of her life is huge. As far as trust, she is taking a chance, which is shown. We see her uncertainty, hesitancy and the struggle between what's rational and what she feels (and we see this in Angel too).

    I still find it strange that they never actually seem to be happy when they're together, and their continual moody conversations do get on my nerves. Overall, I'm still undecided over what I think about their relationship. Definitely not my favorite in the Buffyverse, although I don't completely dislike it.

    • ladililn says:

      IA on them never seeming happy together. We never really get a moment of them laughing or joking or just having fun. It seems like their entire relationship is just based around this tragically romantic idea of a vampire/Slayer relationship, without much between them that's just Buffy and Angel as people.

  49. Dee says:

    Just a comment on something you said about Xander referring to the overweight friend. If no one else mentioned this, and you don't know much about Joss, he actually was that overweight friend himself. I think he was writing that from experience, kind of like how you were reacting to it negatively from experience. So just in case you were like "grr skinny attractive people should not write that," know Joss Whedon's kind of the opposite of that, lol. He's a schlub.

    • Deester says:

      I agree with this comment. It's more towards Joss Whedon poking fun at himself. I don't think he intended to offend people or anything!

      Furthermore, I see more of Joss in Xander than any of the other characters, disheveled and slightly neurotic with a weird sense of humour that sometimes doesn't know where to stop. It's what makes Joss (and Xander) sorta awesome.

      • Dee says:

        Joss has always had a good sense of humor about his own failings, especially the most awkward ones. And I agree completely that Xander's the most like him. I think Xander might be a lot like how he was in his teenage years, whereas Wash in Firefly is more like him as an adult. But I definitely don't think he was trying to offend anyone. If anything he was probably pointing out something unfair and offensive … but sometimes true.

  50. robin_comments says:

    Progression of the Drusilla & Spike plot arc and characterizations, some good Angel character expansion, and another human villain — good stuff.

    Though the character of Ford is really terribly irritating (I feel you, Spike!), I'm fond of this episode because I feel like it was necessary — because it's inevitable that some human would take advantage of Buffy's secret superhero identity, seeking to use her to benefit themselves.

    "what will your mommy sing when they find your body?"

    "Do you remember the song that mummy used to sing me?"
    "I remember."
    –so much implied with these simple lines!

    I absolutely love the opening scene between Angel and Drusilla. It makes me want 20 more scenes with them. I find it really interesting to see Angel interacting with other vampires as a fellow vampire who has a complicated past (instead of simply the slayer's backup).

    Giles: "How will I know what to wear?"
    Jenny: "…Do you own anything else?"
    These two are so freakin' cute.

    "And I think the peasants were all depressed."
    "I think you mean oppressed."

    Ford: "Would I be imposing?"
    Xander: "Oh, only in the literal sense."
    ha Xander continues to be a creep about any other guy around Buffy but this line is still very clever. LOL.

    so, Angel, what you do last night?
    oh I was just yet again confronted with the unspeakable evil I used to get up to on a daily basis. One of my innocent victims who I turned into a monster wanted to chat, so I tried not to cry and asked her to please not get us all killed.

    Deadboy! Xander, Willow, and Angel going a mission together! This is all of the good.

    "These people don't know anything about vampires. How they are! How they live! How they dress! …. [meets guy in identical outfit]"

    But seriously, shouldn’t they….hang out? I mean, we genuinely haven’t seen them spend more than one full night together?
    From your typing to my brain.

    This may be my very favorite line in all of BtVS:
    "Yes, it's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true. The bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies and everybody lives happily ever after."

    that Drusilla is in love with the man who tortured her
    Well, kind of… yes. But then after all the awful things Angel orchestrated, to purposely DO THAT TO HER, I don't think that's supposed to be a statement about weakness on Drusilla's part or look in any way romantic or healthy. It's Stockholm Syndrome of the extreme vampire kind.

    It also sets up an interesting contrast with Spike and Drusilla's relationship in this episode. It's like the show is saying, "this is why Angel has so much reason to feel guilty! because look how all vampires don't want the person they're hot for to suffer!"

  51. puevfp says:

    Naar abg wbvavat gur znva pnfg ba Natry, be rira orpbzvat n znwbe fhccbegvat punenpgre, unf nyjnlf orra bar bs zl znwbe pbzcynvagf jvgu gung fubj. Hc gurer jvgu "jul qvq frnfba sbhe unccra?"

    Nice to see from some other comments that i'm not alone in that.

  52. Epiphany says:

    “Did the writers exhaust their energy reserves or something? Does Xander need to earn more XP to level-up to ‘Complex Character’?” ~ Mark

    XD You get an “ability point” for this line alone.

    Personally, I feel like this episode has a lot of good things, and I am looking forward to more episodes like this.
    Newbie notes I took during this episode:

    •Angel and Dru?
    •Least favorite trope: Misunderstandings that can be resolved just by talking.
    •Guess: Dru is Angel’s sister?
    •Giles and Jenny (romantic comedy needed).
    •Cordelia! Peasants are cranky. Give them cake.
    •Xander stop playing that note [Jealous, entitled guy with a crush].
    •“I touch myself.”
    •Billy Ford is wearing a cross-guard vest.
    •Xander stop playing that note!
    •Willow never stop being yourself.
    •As;dflkja; Angel just say what happened! All of whatever comes next can be avoided if you just communicate. Trust me. I’ve seen enough sitcoms.
    •Willow, “Angel want to play?” Angel: -_- <No, I just want to brood>
    •A cat. Another cat. They fought and left. [The exact quote was much funnier]
    •Billy. You must be a vampire.
    •Wannabe vampire?
    •Willow XD
    •Willow 8D
    •Willow =3
    •“Brooding Skills” I knew it!
    •Have fun Giles (Ask Jenny how)
    [Forgot to take notes for while.]
    •Be considerate towards vampire wannabes, okay. They have dark tormented feelings!
    •Just your neighborhood friendly vampire.
    •Jenny, Giles, monster trucks!
    •Dru backstory maybe? Possibly?
    •Oh no, you took one of Giles books. Shame!
    •Wow, does Ford have a death wish?
    •Spike, “You have a real death wish.” SEE!
    •Spike is so fun and catty.
    •Buffy is communicating.
    •Your turn Angel. I said, “Your turn!” I command you to communicate!
    •8O Angel is the cause of vampire Drusilla!
    •Ford, do you have a death wish messing with Buffy? You’re going to turn into a vampire and get slayed.
    •Willow! 😉
    •Ford, you have weird hang ups and misconceptions. Stop watching vampire movies.
    •“No one gets out of here alive.” Oh, because you’re all going to be vampires LOL -_-
    •Seriously, Buffy’s life is in peril, but someone needs to point out that goofy outfit. She is still awesome.
    •I change my mind, Spike is going to kill Ford.

    At this point, I stopped taking notes because I have personal experience with someone close to me being diagnosed with a malign brain tumor. It’s complicated, and that was all I could think of during those emotional scenes, not Buffy. I understand Mark being conflicted because I had to deal with it for ten years, and I am still conflicted about my feelings for this person.

    Post Note: I was right both times. Spike killed Ford, and Buffy staked vampire Ford!

  53. LadyPeyton says:

    This episode has my favorite interaction of any television show of all time.

    "The good guys are always stalwart and true the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and we always defeat them and save the day."


    I also adore that when Chantarelle was looking around for a wicked kewl vampire name she couldn't do any better than a mushroom.

    And the scene where Angel and the wannabe vamp were wearing the same outfit!!! Heee!!!

    I agree about Buffy and Angel. The first episode I ever saw was the last episode of this season so I just assumed they had a great love story as back story, but when I finally got a chance to go back and watch season 1 and 2 (up to this point) I was flabbergasted by how quickly she jumped from "I want to date" to "Buffy and Angel = Twoo Wuv!" (and now I will forever have Peter Cook's "Mawwage!" in my head.)

    Mr Whedon, I am disappoint.

    On the other hand she *is* a fifteen year old girl and they are eternally silly when it comes to love.

    • misterbernie says:

      fur pbhyqa'g qb nal orggre guna n zhfuebbz
      Vg'f na rkbgvp zhfuebbz, vs gung'f nal pbzsbeg.

      …npghnyyl, ner punagreryyrf pbafvqrerq rkbgvp va gur HF, be vf Ohssl whfg ylvat gb fcner Punagreryyvylnaar'f srryvatf?

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      I think B/A is exactly what it was supposed to be. Teenage first love. When you're 16, you may fall in love with someone you barely know, but it feels incredibly intense and it's very serious to you. I fell in love with a boy in my class after a few months, but during that time we barely spoke, just shared meaningful glances and looked at each other a lot, and I had this whole idea in my head of who he was.

      Then it all went wrong and was really traumatic and it took me a lot of time to get over it. So I totally understand Buffy's feelings in season 2 and 3. It's the kind of love that's more about teenage romantic idealism and the intense emotions you go through in the adolescence, when your love/infatuation seems like the most important thing in the world, and you think it will last forever and all that.

    • notemily says:

      Well, but it's not like she just blurted out "I love you"–Angel ASKED for her feelings.

      • Which is something I have always found to be just a little creepy, once I learned exactly how old he is. Ergo it was something I refused to gloss over when I was forced to read the Twilight series to see if it was something suitable for my daughter to read (no. it wasn't. not even a little bit).

        If I was Joyce and I learned that the guy who was dating my teenaged daughter was a much older vampire I'd have staked him myself (albeit my daughter is 10 not 16…then again I may be even more bloodthirsty when she's 16).

  54. Genny_ says:

    It's funny: for me, this entire episode is basically its last scene. I don't know, the last scene is just so much better than the rest of it for me. Not that the rest is BAD, but whenever I watch this episode I'm always just… waiting to get there. I love that we're starting to move into greyer territory compared to series one which, let's face it, was often fairly black and white and didn't tend to present its 'monsters' as people so much as just… there.

    But yes, agreed with Angel. It's not that it COULDN'T happen, but I think in terms of presenting it to an audience, we really, really need to see them together more often.

  55. core013 says:

    ah, high school love. Like you, Mark, I've never been quick with the "L" word. Always takes me way too long to say it.

    But I have a story that's a great example of hormonal HS kids throwing that word around like it's nothing. I can't quite remember if I was a junior or a senior at the time but I was on a 2nd date with this guy. Not super important but just for the record, our first date had been a group date. All was going swimmingly and we were about to kiss for the first time when he blurts out I love you. It was one of the most awkward moments of my entire life. I totally flipped out and I don't think he really understood why. It was also our last date. lol

  56. Courtney says:

    I love this episode. It sets the tone for the rest of the season and series in general. It's really the point where you start thinking "Hmm, maybe this will be more serious than the average silly vampire show".

    Btw, regarding Buffy telling Angel that she loved him, bear in mind what many shipper don't: Buffy is a teenager. Teenagers get things wrong, they move too fast, and they blow things out of proportion. I know I shouldn't generalize, but Buffy is definitely one of those teens.

    • LadyPeyton says:

      My opinion is that anyone who has experienced life as a 15 year old girl has paid their dues and gets to poke fun at 15 year old girls, but that may not be very politically correct of me.

    • Noybusiness says:

      And in Angel's day, people were expected to form couples quicker than now, weren't they?

      • Bonnie says:

        Yeah, but he didn't just jump in time from then to now, he actually was there, day after day, for those couple hundred years. It's not unreasonable to expect him to have picked up on interpersonal relationships and the changes therein during those – couple hundred – years. After all, he managed to pick up on the new developments in hair gel techniques just fine.

        • Noybusiness says:

          He didn't really get exposed to interpersonal relationships in that time, though, and the most important socialization is in the formative years.

          • LadyPeyton says:

            Bs pbhefr ur jnf rkcbfrq gb vagrecrefbany eryngvbafuvcf va gung gvzr. Ur qvqa'g fcraq nyy bs vg va nyyrljnlf yvivat bss engf. Ur jnf ng Ryivf'f jrqqvat, sbe pelvat bhg ybhq.

            • Noybusiness says:

              Gung'f abg rkcbfher gb vagrecrefbany eryngvbafuvcf. Gung'f orvat va gur fnzr ebbz nf n pbhcyr. Qvssrerag sebz yrneavat, juvpu bar ernyyl bayl pna sebz rkgraqrq rkcrevrapr, ubj pbhcyrf qb guvatf va guvf qnl naq ntr.

              • That makes the assumption that it's impossible to learn from observation; which is, of course, not true.

                • Noybusiness says:

                  About something like that? I don't believe he'd get sufficient observation of that fact from watching movies or being in the vicinity of other adults for him to internalize it either, so unless he read a how-to book on the subject his emotional matrix should be stuck in the past.

                • Noybusiness says:

                  The show itself makes what I'm saying clear with the early declaration of love and gur pynqqntu evat. I don't need to add anything to that.

  57. wildered_dream says:

    This is one of my favourite episodes! So glad you liked it.
    Giles and Buffy's last scene is one of the best moments ever

  58. ladililn says:

    V guvax vs lbh gnxr gur ivrj gung Fcvxr vf, va fbzr harkcynvanoyr naq haqrsvanoyr jnl, "fcrpvny" (juvpu vf pregnvayl n gubhtug V'ir ragregnvarq zber guna n srj gvzrf gb rkcynva uvf inelvat orunivbe KQ), gura ur qrsvavgryl qvq gehyl ybir ure cer-frnfba 7. Bs pbhefr, qb gurl rire npghnyyl fnl gung inzcverf pna'g gehyl srry ybir, be vzcyl vg? V'z abg npghnyyl fher…

    • Seventh_Star says:

      qehfvyyn: "jr pna ybir dhvgr jryy, vs abg jvfryl."

      abg gung jr pna gnxr ure jbeq ba vg, ohg fur frrzf gb oryvrir vg'f cbffvoyr!

  59. ScarecrowCeno says:

    One of my favourite episodes. I find Ford fascinating, many focus on the vampire aspect but I do also see him as having a lot in common with the villains of the film "Scream". He's really about telling a narrative. He was likely disturbed most of his life, in some ways, he has clear trouble with reality. I think he just loves the idea of the "dying villain becomes monster" and Buffy as the "hero"… it's an almost cliche narrative but what works is that Ford is so into it. It's tragic as well though, and sad, and the whole episode works on so many layers.

  60. Sarah S says:

    I'm going to stand up for my 'ship of Buffy/Angel for one reason. I support them like Ron supports the Chudley Cannons. I don't watch sports, but I am a dyed-in-the-wool B/A 'shipper. Feel free to mock, but I intend to defend the honour of my people. Or something like that.

    I want to point out that this relationship had it's beginnings a year before. Buffy first met Angel (and thought he was ". . . gorgeous . . . in an annoying sort of way.") in Welcome to the Hellmouth. Over the next several episodes it becomes very clear how attracted she is to him. Then in Never Kill a Boy, we see it made clear Angel's attracted to her as well. He wouldn't have squared off like that with Owen if he weren't. He's clearly jealous of Buffy's date.

    TBC because this won't let me have a longer comment at once.

    • Sarah S says:

      Now we come to the real key episode of the first season. Angel. In that episode there's one thing that happens that I don't want discounted. No, not the kiss. It's nice and whatnot, but that's not it. It's the trust. When you first meet a person, any person, you don't trust them with your life and everything right off. You don't. I mean, okay, if you're a police officer on the front line or whatever, maybe, but there are extenuating circumstances there. In this case, Buffy and Angel have this tremendous demonstration of trust in each other that happens in that episode. After that, they're both trusting the other with their very lives. Angel that she won't hunt him down and Buffy that he won't use his carte blanche to break into her house and murder her mother and her.

      TBC for the same reasons as the one above.

      • Sarah S says:

        It's very clearly implied at the end of Prophecy Girl, to move on to the next point, that Buffy and Angel's first date was to the Spring Fling after the Master died. Right there, she gets to dance in her dress that everyone likes with him. It was probably hugely romantic.

        At this point in time, we're now dealing with a sort of scattershot approach to a relationship, in that they share a trust with each other better reserved for longer-term relationships, but at the same time, have only had one (maybe two) kisses and one date. That said, there's still a firm base to start something right there. So, when Buffy comes back in When She Was Bad, her immediate rejection of Angel really puts a damper on things. For the record, I didn't see that as stalking, I saw that as news reaching Angel that Buffy's in town and him wanting to meet up with her as soon as possible. I don't think he actually owns a phone, so sneaking into her room is probably the most effecient way to catch her. Especially if he wants to see her and not just pass things on through Giles.

        Why do comment boxes never let my put in my whole comment? TBC

        • Sarah S says:

          After that, we get Buffy chasing Angel, his capitulation at the end of Reptile Boy, and the implication that he and Buffy start dating. From Halloween to Lie to Me, the implication is that they're meeting at the Bronze and possibly combining work and dating by making Buffy's patrols into date night.

          Last, there is the pragmatic aspect to all this. Yes, he's hot and whatnot, but there's also an "I don't need to worry about him," aspect. From the fact that she's the Slayer and could break an ordinary guy in two by accident, which she won't with a vampire, to the fact that she can be honest with him, and he'll understand, if she's late, leaves early, leaves in the middle or never shows up at all for a date because of the slaying, to the fact that if she's attacked, she can just let him fend for himself and not worry about it, because he can handle it. Which would add to the attraction, because let's face it, you don't want to date someone who can't deal with your life.

          Almost done . . . .

          • Sarah S says:

            Last section, I swear.

            So, to add that all up, 1) she's known him for a year now, 2) they've not only been attracted from the beginning but they have been dating for what is probably at least two weeks, if not a month, 3) they've got this trust that, like Ron, Hermione, Harry and the troll, means that they've skipped over some aspects of getting to know each other and straight to immovable trust and 4) Buffy can treat him like an equal in ways she can't many other people.

            But I'm a 'shipper, I freely admit my bias. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. Chudley will win the league, just you wait!

            • Raenef_the_5th says:

              You're cool, and I find these comments cool. +1

            • "3) they've got this trust that, like Ron, Hermione, Harry and the troll, means that they've skipped over some aspects of getting to know each other and straight to immovable trust"

              See. This makes a sense to me that is not. Why do they have such a trust? He hasn't exactly shown himself to be a trustworthy sort of fellow. He continually Batmans* on them. He hides important facts that would be extremely useful in the performance of her duties. He hides things about himself and the exact nature of his demon until he's caught and forced to 'fess up and he does so that he can buy time to convince them to leave town instead of being killed because he has an intimate relationship with them. He hid key talents, like the fact that he has superhuman strength and the ability to actually help her perform her duties when she went up against the Master.

              So why the trust given to someone who has proven himself to be a pretty untrustworthy guy?

              *to Batman is to disappear in the middle of a conversation.

              • "and he does so that he can buy time to convince them to leave town "

                The "them" in this sentence should read deadly vampires that he has an intimate relationship with.

                I haz no editing skillz.

                • Sarah S says:

                  First, I am without editing skillz too, so no worries. Second, some of my other reasons involve spoilers, so I have to limit my ability to reply somewhat. As for the trust, I was just commenting that that's a heckuva lot of trust that he's not going to become evil and kill her mother, and in his case, that she's not going to withdraw that trust and kill him to avoid the worry. Once you're trusting someone to that degree, in that way, the notion of not trusting them in a lot of other ways seems a little silly. It's life and death, you know?

                  On the other hand, I see your point. I do again admit that B/A is my Chudley Cannons, because the arguments against the 'ship are numerous and good.

  61. theduck says:

    The same thing happened to me, actually. When I was 16, I'd been dating this guy for about a week and when I was leaving his house one night he kissed me and said "I love you." I was just like, "UM I HAD A REALLY GREAT TIME THANKS BYE" and left (I apologized the next day, although I didn't say it back until we'd been dating about 5 months). A lot of teenagers tend to say the L-word as soon as they feel something more than the average crush.

    • egao-gakari says:

      It seems like everybody's posting their stories of awkward, too-soon "i love you"s, so my two cents: my first relationship (I was 18 and had just started college), I said it within the first three weeks. As others have mentioned, I think part of it stems from wanting some way of verbalizing all the stuff that's running through you during that time.

      Fast forward to my current boyfriend–he said it on THE THIRD DAY we were officially together. I was stunned and didn't know how to respond. Now, granted, we'd gotten physical really fast and he's from a different country and is not a native speaker of English, so it's possible he said it without understanding how serious it sounds… dunno. A few weeks later I said it back, but sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't have waited a little longer.

      Suffice it to say, watching Buffy say that, especially when we've got no character development for Angel other than "broody" and, in my opinion, not much chemistry between them as a couple, hit a little close to home for me. Makes me cringe with every rewatch.

  62. kelseyofcake says:

    Sadly I do not have much to say about this episode, not because I don't like it, but because I am dead tired after my first day back to school this semester. As a result, my thoughts are less than coherent. (And this is why I've decided I'm going to stay little ahead of schedule and write down my thoughts in a notebook as I watch the episode from now on.)

    This was sort of a landmark episode for me because it was one of the first ones beside "School Hard" where I noticed a strong shift in tone within the show that I really liked. Specifically, the scene at the end with Buffy and Giles in the graveyard really struck a chord with me since I was going through a really rough period at that time that was also leaving me confused and unsure about pretty much everything. It's partly because of this that I still hold the episode dear to me, because at the time I found it strangely comforting. It's also just really well written.

    Also, Mark, I'm with you on wishing the writers would just do something different with Xander. I'm tired of being annoyed with him.

  63. L_Storm says:

    First of all, I'm going to defend Buffy's "I love you" comment, having been in overly-emotional teen relationships. As others have pointed out, they've known each other for about a year at this point. Moreover, Buffy has a really intense life. She's risking her life on a daily basis in a way that almost none of her friends can actually help her with, outside of research or bait. So, really, is it any surprise that she feels like she loves him? Whether or not she does (naq V jbhyq fnl fur qbrf ol gur gvzr gurl fyrrc gbtrgure, vs gurl qba'g nyernql) and whether or not it is an adult love, that is what she feels like. Because honestly, teenagers are not the most rational people around (no offense intended to anyone, I was a highly irrational teenager and thus why I think that.)

    Nyfb, xabjvat fur srryf guvf jnl abj urycf frg hc gur rzbgvbany vzcnpg bs gurz fyrrcvat gbtrgure naq uvz orpbzvat Natryhf… nf jryy nf gur ernyyl TBBQ nanybtl gung Ohssl'f zbz raqf hc frggvat hc nobhg zber trarevp fgnyxre/nohfvir eryngvbafuvcf. Rira gubhtu gur zrffntr vf zhpu zber frk-artngvir guna V'q yvxr, V guvax birenyy gur fgngrzrag nobhg grrantr eryngvbafuvcf abg orvat unaqyrq pnershyyl rabhtu vf njrfbzr. Naq gur "V ybir lbh" urer frgf vg hc.

    Secondly, Dru is so wonderfully creepy!

    Thirdly, lnl naar! v'z fb tynq gb frr fb znal bgure crbcyr nterrvat!

    • Seventh_Star says:

      your comment is good and i agree. i've, to this day, never had more intense feelings for anyone than the ones i had for my high school boyfriend. whether right or wrong (if there is such a thing in this circumstance), buffy loves angel. it's real to her and that's all that matters, really.

  64. notemily says:

    – LIE TO ME. Creepy playground! That kid is there after dark!
    – Angel and Dru! They know each other! But Buffy doesn't know that!
    – Giles and Jenny flirting in the halls! Is that allowed? Will they get in trouble if Snyder finds out?
    – "Why don't you take the night off?" GILES, don't you know that if you SAY that, something AWFUL will happen? Although I guess it doesn't really, in this case. She just hangs out at the Bronze.
    – "I know the peasants were all depressed." Hee.
    – OMG, someone we've never heard of! Ford! A friend of Buffy's! Yay!
    – "Oh, THAT'S what that song is about?"
    – Watching Buffy's friends who know Angel's a vampire interact with the ones who don't is always good fun. "You're not wrong!" See, I like Xander when he's being snarky and funny.
    – "Oh. I thought you were just slaying a vampire." HEee
    – FORD what is up with you
    – Ah yes, a Vampire Club. Diego is not a Cool Vampire Name, dude. It's just Spanish for James.
    – Is Ford wearing an earring? He's such a rebel.
    – Willow hiding her bra is hilarious. "I'm not supposed to have boys in my room!"
    – "Feeling guilty… honing my brooding skills." 😀
    – Willow's horrible lying skills are amusing.
    – HOW? HOW did he know Buffy was the slayer? This is the question here. (My roommate suggests that Buffy was just really bad at hiding it.)
    – Angel would totally fit in in this vampire club. HE IS THE BROODIEST. Also he's wearing a SHINY RED SHIRT lololol AND SO IS SOME OTHER DUDE
    – "It took one of my books!" Hee hee Giles is SO OFFENDED
    – Drusilla, your bird is DEAD
    – "You've got a real death wish." Yup.
    – "Oh, right. 'You've got thirty seconds to tell me or I kill you.'" I love Spike
    – "Do you love me?" Awww, Angel is so angsty.
    – Noooo, he's listening! Through your gauzy curtains! Doesn't anyone in this town have windows?
    – Poor Buff. This episode is all about disillusionment.
    – "Ours is a forbidden love." I LOVE YOU WILLOW
    – "I need them to bless me!" Uh… you could sneeze?
    – "Actually, I was counting on it." LOL he's like… a Troper or something.
    – "She's a non-believer, she taints us!" SHUN THE UNBELIEVER! SHUUUUN
    – More disillusionment. Ford is dying. 🙁 That doesn't give him the right to kill people, though.
    – "For the body." Oh, Buffy.
    – "I believe that's called growing up." "I'd like to stop then, okay?"
    – "Liar."

    • arctic_hare says:

      "Doesn't anyone in this town have windows?"

      That makes me think of a line from the musical episode of Daria. "Doesn't anyone in this town wear pants anymore?"

    • Seventh_Star says:

      i love the comic repetition of "you're not wrong!"

      i assume that maybe ford just paid extra attention to her behavior and was likely present while some SLAYER SHIT WAS GOING DOWN. that'd actually be an interesting story. perhaps for a comic…

      thank you for the charlie the unicorn reference. THANK YOU.

    • RoseFyre says:

      I LOVE Giles's reaction to the book being stolen. SUCH a librarian! <3

  65. Bumblebea says:

    Ugh, I am right with you on the Xander thoughts Mark. I've always been a casual Buffy fan, catching random episodes when they were repeated on Syfy, and the biggest reaction I had to Xander was 'meh'. But I was sure I'd like him if I watched it properly!

    And now… I want desperately to like him, I do, and there is probably no way I could bring myself to hate him, whatever he did, simply because his is the character I always fall for in fiction: the lovable comic relief sidekick, preferably slightly hard done by (the Ron Weasley if you will. It could also be known as the Sokka) and I can see elements of that in Xander, can see that this is what they were going for. I watch every episode going 'Please don't be a dick. Please don't be a dick.'

    And invariably, he is. 🙁

    As for the actual episode, I can't seem to get more than 20 minutes in without it freezing. But those twenty minutes were a doozy! I look forward to the rest.

    As usual, Willow wins all. Thank you and good night.

  66. Avery says:

    Sbeq vzntvarf uvf yvsr gb or n tenaqre fgbel va juvpu ur’f gur ivyynva; rirelbar ryfr nebhaq uvz ner whfg npgbef jub jvyy snyy vagb gurve ebyrf naq cynl nybat, Ur arrqf guvatf gb or cerqvpgnoyr, naq V’z thrffvat vg’f orpnhfr vg tvirf uvz fbzr zrnfher bs pbageby jurer ur’f unq abar bire uvf urnygu naq urycf qvfgnapr uvz sebz gur enzvsvpngvbaf bs uvf pubvpr—frr, ur’f fhccbfrq gb abg pner. Ur qbrfa’g unir gb whfgvsl uvzfrys gb nalbar. Gung’f abg ubj gur fgbel jbexf. Zrnajuvyr, Ohssl fcraqf guvf rcvfbqr svthevat bhg jub gb gehfg naq yrneavat nobhg gur fyvccrel zbeny nzovthvgl bs gur jbeyq fur’f va. Ohg gur erny ivyynva bs gur cvrpr qrirybcf haqre ure abfr, bhgfvqr bs nalbar’f xabjyrqtr naq gur cerqvpgnoyr pbasvarf Sbeq jnagf gb vzcbfr ba gur jbeyq: Jvyybj vaivgrf Natry vagb ure ebbz, juvpu fur’yy erterg yngre; Ohssl pbasvezf fur ybirf uvz, frnyvat gur fhpxre chapu; Natry uvzfrys jneaf Ohssl ntnvafg yrneavat nobhg uvf cnfg, ohg gurve pbagebyyrq rkpunatr bs vasbezngvba evatf fb ubyybj jura lbh xabj gung fbba rabhtu gur cnfg jvyy orpbzr gur cerfrag. Vg’f nyfb uneq gb jngpu gur ynfg fprar jvgu Ohssl naq Tvyrf jvgubhg orvat erzvaqrq bs gur arkg gvzr gurl fgnaq va sebag bs n tenir, naq jul.

    Gurer ner n zvyyvba guvatf obgu yvgreny naq gurzngvp gur gvgyr “Yvr gb Zr” pbhyq ersre gb, ohg V yvxr gung vg jbexf va grezf bs nhqvrapr rkcrpgngvbaf. Rirelbar pbzrf bhg guvaxvat gung gur yrffba bs guvf rcvfbqr vf gung gur fubj’f tebja hc cnfg frnfba bar naq gur ivyynvaf—jurgure gurl’er Sbeq be Fcvxr naq Qehfvyyn—ner ab ybatre fgenvtug-hc rivy, naq Ohssl vf tbvat gb unir gb qrny jvgu gung. Ohg lbh jba'g xabj hagvy gur raq bs gur frnfba gung'f gung'f abg gur jubyr fgbel, orpnhfr gur uvqqra yrffba sbe gur nhqvrapr naq gur punenpgref vf gung gurl unir ab vqrn jub gur ivyynva npghnyyl vf.

    In conclusion, everyone is unprepared.

    Ohssl gryyvat Natry “V ybir lbh. V qba’g xabj vs V gehfg lbh" cnenyyryf avpryl jvgu ure gryyvat Fcvxr va frnfba fvk, “V pbhyq arire gehfg lbh rabhtu sbe vg gb or ybir.” Nf n uvtu fpubby tvey, fur qbrfa'g frr n ceboyrz jvgu frcnengvat ybir sebz gehfg, orpnhfr gur srryvat pbzrf svefg naq zrnaf rirelguvat. Ohg fur riraghnyyl ernpurf gur erirefr haqrefgnaqvat, juvpu ba bar unaq vf zber nqhyg ohg ba nabgure fcrnxf gb ubj zhpu fur'f orpbzr qvfvyyhfvbarq jvgu gur vqrn gung srryvat vf rabhtu.

  67. magpie says:

    Angel in the club talking about how they don't know how vampires dress is absolutely priceless. It immediately made me think of this:

    <img src=""&gt;

    <img src=""&gt;


  68. aurelia says:

    This the episode I would use to introduce people to the show (until I accidentally showed it to someone who's brother had an inoperable brain tumor (and yes, I still want to crawl under a rock for that)). It's just a lovely mix of funny and serious, shades of gray, and that beautiful scene between Buffy & Giles at the end. I think it's a decent representation of the early years of the show.

  69. fantasylover120 says:

    This was one of my favorites of Season 2. It just stars out like a typical Buffy ep and then rips your heart out. Whedon, why do you enjoy torturing us so?
    Daily Buffy quotable:
    "There was a cat. A cat here, and then there was, another cat. And they fought, the cats, and then they left."-Buffy, telling possibly the worst lie in the whole ep.
    "Things used to be pretty simple. Just hanging out, feeling guilty. I really honed my brooding skills."-Angel
    "I've known you for two minutes and I can't stand you. I really don't feature you living forever."-Spike-awesome quote gets repeated because it is awesome.
    "Is that so bad? The dark can get pretty dark, sometimes you need a story."-Willow
    Ford: would I be imposing? Xander: Only in the literal sense.

  70. Shelby says:

    I have to be honest, when I was a high schooler watching Buffy – the fact that Angel and Buffy's relationship went from "Hello Mr. Cryptic," to "OMG LOVE OF MY LIFE!" in about 30 seconds completely went over my head. I totally bought into the romance. Of course, watching it now as a 26 year old, I cringe. I mean… REALLY? But, could I have fallen in love (or the approximation thereof) that quickly as a 16 year old. YES. And I did. (cringing again)

  71. gsj says:

    So when Xander said that line, I just wanted to throttle Joss Whedon.

    i'm just gonna leave this here.

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      Writers don't have to agree with everything that the characters say. Xander said that line because it's something that Xander would say. The Scoobies are high-school kids, not perfect role models, and they occasionally say some offensive things and show themselves to be affected by societal expectations re: gender roles, looks, etc. Because it's realistic of high school kids behavior, you can't expect them to be politically correct.

  72. TrampyMcBitca says:

    Nighttime playground, creeeeepy.

    You didn't inherit your mother's voice did you Dru?

    "What will your mummy sing when they find your body?"

    Are rooftops big hangouts for vampires, Buffy?

    Ahh, passing notes in class, now everyone just texts.

    Shut up, Xander.

    But I did find his slowly diminishing dance parties funny.

    Eww, oreos dunked in apple juice?

    I loved watching Willow's face as she tried to figure out what "I Touch Myself" was about.

    Willow, the bottom of your slippers are rather dirty.

    Are both Angel and Willow wearing makeup in that scene?

    Willow is adorable.

    Beeper thingie!

    "Vampires, yay!"

    "We usually call them the Nasty, Pointy, Bitey Ones."

    "Ours is a forbidden love"

    "and my GOD can you have a dorkier outfit?"
    "Gotta back her up D, you look like a big ninny."

    Yes, Ford. Life isn't fair, but that does not give you the right to kill a bunch of people so that you can "live".

    Poor Buffy, so much weight on the shoulders of a teenager.

  73. ellierose says:

    I am seriously delurking here just to say that this is SUCH A BIZARRE COINCIDENCE. I started watching Doctor Who at about the same time as Mark, and someone linked me to this blog, so I started reading it – I think I was about a season ahead. And then I sort of forgot about it, until I decided to come read the Doctor Who Christmas special blog and realised that this was here and I HAVE ALSO JUST STARTED WATCHING BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER, in fact I am up to THIS EXACT EPISODE!

    Either this is cosmically weird or I have stayed up too late. I AM NOT SURE.

  74. Nos says:

    All of the intense thinking thoughts going on in various rot13 threads: WHY I LOVE THIS FANDOM SO MUCH. THINK THOUGHTS!

  75. threerings13 says:

    Right, there's like 400 comments already so this has probably been said to death but, no Mark there's nothing wrong with your opinions about saying "I love you." I had the same reaction to this episode in that regard. You could look at it as a very immature teenage thing to do, but honestly the whole Buffy/Angel relationship has weird time issues in which they're in a super serious romance all of a sudden. I think this is a TV thing, but it's not handled very well, IMO.

    Also, just in general I don't think rushing into "in love" is a healthy thing. I had a boyfriend who told me he loved me the second day we were together. Literally the second day I knew him. I was 18 and thought it was ROMANTIC. Yeah, except it turned out to be an extremely messed up emotionally abusive relationship. So absolutely, a quick declaration of love or even worse the question, "Do you love me?" is something of a warning sign in my mind.

  76. Kari18212 says:

    I LOVE THIS EPISODE SO MUCH. There are no caps locks big enough for my feelings on that. There's morally gray villains, Willow being the funniest person alive (I laughed for five minutes over "AHAHAHA It makes me jumpy"), Angel admitting his ridiculous brooding abilities, SMG killing it with being sympathetic but still sure what the right choice is, Giles and Jenny being adorable, and Spike being awesome and witty and obviously completely over the moon in love with Drusilla (Gurer vf abguvat V ybir zber va guvf frevrf guna rneyl vaqvpngvbaf bs Fcvxr'f erznvavat uhznavgl-vg'f cerggl ener sbe inzcverf gb pner nobhg bguref va guvf fubj).

    I will say that I had never realized until now just how fast Buffy and Angel's relationship gets serious. I started watching this on and off in about the fourth season and then went back to fill in the rest, and watching it one episode a day like this has given me lots of time to think (yes, more time to think about Buffy is exactly what I needed lol). And yes, VERY ODD that they're already saying I love you, although I thought it was weird back in Angel that Darla was saying he loved her already. But, as many people have said, totally typical of early relationships (you would think Angel would be a little more cautious though….)

    Giles and Buffy's conversation may be one of the best ones to ever occur on this show (I'm sure I'll only say this seven or eight times lol). I think every teen can relate at some point to just thinking, "I hate this growing up thing, I'd like to stop now" and that's one thing Buffy does SO well is make some totally relatable teen experience larger than life. So yes, this episode gave me lots of FEELINGS and I will always love it for that 🙂

  77. Maribeth says:

    More than ten years before 'Twilight' Joss conceived of the cult of the Vampire wanna be…. But come to think of it Anne Rice really pre-dated Joss with the lame humans who want to die and become demons.

  78. brandy says:

    Yeah, this was the point where I got confused by the Buffy/Angel relationship, too. The writers are all tell and no show, and we're supposed to just buy it. Meh. I think it soured me on Buffy/Angel in general.

  79. Smurphy says:

    "But this is something Joss Whedon wrote. Who are we kidding? Nothing’s going to be all right." … I'm glad to see you are catching on. I tend to watch Buffy in the fetal position…. with my blankie and a night light and my childhood stuffed cat… or sometimes an actual cat or my puppy (but not both at the same time).

    Also you missed "Oh, we just call them the nasty pointy bitey ones." – I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY I LOVE XANDER'S ONE LINERS… and the clueless vampire-lover girl is amazing.

    Not prepared.

  80. pancreas says:

    I love buffy, and i've really enjoyed Mark's blog here, but that one line of Xanders…i don't see why everyone is getting so uppity about it. i mean i'm kind of a fitness junky, so the way i look at it is; obese people aren't taking care of their one and only body, so why should i show them any sympathy? i know it's harder for some people to because of body types and what not, but there is a difference between "bigger" people and overweight people.
    also, as a straight guy who had a crush on a girl in high school (somewhat similar to Xander's experiences) i enjoy his character. though i can see why people might dislike him (maybe i need to rewatch the series :D)

    also yay willow! i just watched through buffy a couple months ago and alyson hannigan is officially my first celebrity crush because she's so darn adorable.

    • settledforhistory says:

      As a rather overweight woman I should feel insulted by Xander’s comment, but I always just took it as an example of his low selfesteem. I mean, all the boys Buffy dates are quite good looking and he probably feels like he can’t compete with that.
      He would feel less threatened if Ford where fat or ugly, which is insulting but normal.
      The funny thing is, that it is more of an insult to Buffy, because he asumes that Buffy is shallow enough that looks matter the most to her in a person, but then again, we haven’t really seen anything to the contrary.

      I don’t take anything Xander says too sirious however, after all we see that he always makes silly jokes when he feels uncomfortable or unsure.

    • Jenny_M says:

      Because obese and overweight people are human beings and deserve as much sympathy as other human beings? This comment is gross. Also, uppity is a gross word.

      • pancreas says:

        sorry, i'm not actually sure what "uppity" means, i just have heard it and enjoyed it. apologies.

        • xpanasonicyouthx says:

          lol i find words on the "internet" and just use them

          fuck you and your barely-coded racist rhetoric.

    • xpanasonicyouthx says:

      I just want to congratulate you for posting what might very well be the most casually offensive and disgusting comment in Mark Watches history. It takes a real feat of douchebaggery to be able to be so "kind" while making an entire group of people feel like worthless human beings.

      Here's a tip, and, like always, this is totally free of charge: OTHER PEOPLE'S BODIES ARE NOT YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS.

      I am considered overweight by ridiculous BMI standards. I am vegan, I go to the gym six days a week (HELLO BODY HATRED, YOU'RE A FAMILIAR FACE), and I ride my bike about 10,000 miles a year. I am not skinny and I get called fat at least once a month.

      So take your fat-hating, not-understanding-health, and bigoted self and GO AWAY.

    • etherealclarity says:

      I'm glad Mark responded to this comment, but I wanted to lay it out for you in a more comprehensive way, so here goes:

      1) Even as a fitness junkie, you should understand that some people who are overweight have medical issues that contribute significantly to weight gain (thyroid issues, required to take steroids, etc) and you have NO WAY OF KNOWING the difference between someone whose weight is due to unhealthy eating + a sedentary lifestyle and someone whose weight is due to a medical issue they cannot control, so making a blanket statement like "why should I have sympathy for them" ignores that fact.

      2) Even in the absence of a medical issue everyone's bodies work differently. Some people can be sedentary and eat very unhealthy foods and never gain an ounce. Other people can exercise and eat healthily and still gain weight. Weight is not a good indicator of health or how well one is taking care of their body. One person losing 5 pounds may be more of an accomplishment than another person losing 20. It is highly unfair for you to assume that a skinny person is deserving of your sympathy (without knowing their actual behaviors) while a fat person is not (again without knowing their actual behaviors).

      3) EVEN IN THE CASE of someone who is genuinely overweight because of their own bad habits, they are deserving of sympathy! Everyone has bad habits, but most people are able to hide their bad habits because the results are not so visibly obvious. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or however that goes. I have a terrible habit of drinking several sodas a day (diet sodas – not that this actually makes drinking soda HEALTHY). Truth is, I'm okay with it. I drink the soda because I have stomach issues and the sodas help my digestion. Yeah, I could drink fizzy water instead, but it's pretty gross. I've decided that a certain level of comfort is worth whatever health issues the soda may bring me in the long run. Some people may decide that yeah, sure, it would be much healthier to lose the weight, but you know what? An extra cookie or two is worth the extra few pounds. You only live once. Just because YOUR bad habits are less visible doesn't make it okay to heap scorn on someone else for theirs.

      4) Indeed, some people whose weight is due to their own behaviors may be more deserving of sympathy – partially because it is the very scorn you are throwing their way that may be feeding in to someone overeating and/or overall feeling of hopelessness and/or self-hatred. These people – people who are obese and deeply unhappy about it – need HELP, not SCORN. They live in a world that hates them, where they are seen as asexual (never the love interest), where they are consistently passed over for jobs they are more qualified for than their competition, where people don't even think twice about throwing slurs their way. If you lived in a situation that miserable, you might think you could never find a way out of it, and food might be a great comfort for you. You might think you were never even deserving of love, so why bother trying to lose weight to find it? It's a horrible way for a person to live, and by eliminating any shred of sympathy for someone in that situation, you may well be contributing to it.

      5) It is generally gross to call people names, whether they've contributed to their own condition or not.

      6) Xander's comment was gross, not only from the "fat people" aspect, but also from the implication that Buffy was supremely shallow (ie. could never fall for someone who was heavier). I am personally more willing to excuse some of Xander's gross behaviors for a number of reasons (one of them being that they seem more desperate and pathetic on his part and I think it is borne out of his own lack of self-esteem), but this comment was offensive even to me.

      Edited to add a conclusion: The idea that a person does not deserve your sympathy when the only thing you know about them is their weight is both misinformed and gross. You have not one iota of understanding about their situation, and truthfully, most people deserve some level of sympathy. Maybe not Hitler though.

      • NB2000 says:

        This comment needs all of the upvotes! Since I can only upvote once, have some applause:
        <img src=""/&gt;

      • xpanasonicyouthx says:


      • pancreas says:

        when i go to the mall and see fat people waddling around (lol they really do waddle) i am disgusted. as i said before, tehre is no reason for me to give them any shred of respect if they won't respect themselves. and i also covered the whole idea of different body types and what not, i understand that different people are wired different.

        • etherealclarity says:

          Your disgust says absolutely nothing about the people you judge, and absolutely everything about your own (lack of) character.

        • Jenny_M says:

          There's something disgusting around here, but it sure as shit isn't fat people. Ugh.

        • xpanasonicyouthx says:

          no you don't

          you understand nothing

          go cry in your own personal corner of the Internet

          also adding another "fuck you" because I can and because you can't reply anymore

          god i love having this much power

          • arctic_hare says:



        • arctic_hare says:

          Fuck you, asshole!

        • Genny_ says:

          Oh really? You're disgusted? There are things worth being disgusted about in life- like, say, going out of your way to make someone feel bad for not doing a thing to hurt anyone- but I don't see how possessing a specific body type warrants it.

          The point, in case you missed it, is that somebody being overweight does not hurt a damn person, therefore does not make them a BAD person, and reacting to them as though it does makes you an illogical fuckhead who is disgusting.

          And I fail to see what being overweight has to do with respect. A better question would be: why would anyone respect you when you don't respect others?

  81. MrsGillianO says:

    " SPIKE: The bird's dead, Dru. You left it in a cage, and you didn't feed it, and now it's all dead, just like the last one. (Drusilla cowers and whines) Oh, I'm sorry baby. I'm a bad, rude man. I just don't like you goin' out, that's all. You are weak. Would you like a new bird? One that's not dead?"

    Spike goes from snarky to concerned selflessness in a fraction of a second – I love it so much. And that whole scene with the dead bird tells us so much about Dru, their relationship and his jealousy of Angel. He seems so insecure about Dru meeting "the enemy". And she finds it so easy to avoid responding to his concern – it becomes All About Her, just as everything is for Xander.

    This is one of those episodes where I forget how much I love it until I am reminded of its countless awesome details. Willow is amazing. Xander, the immature-even-for-his-age teenage boy who sees everything as being about himself – so convincing, even if it is deeply annoying and one-note. But so are many, many teenage boys. And girls – which totally explains for me Buffy's leap into using the L word. In so much of her life she has to be the responsible one, but Angel allows her to be "normal" in her relationships and feelings. Even if said "normal" is not particularly healthy.

    Naq obl ner jr tbvat gb xabj nobhg gung fbba!

    Jung vf vg jvgu Jurqba naq qrevingvirf bs gur anzr "Jvyyvnz"? Jr unir Yvnz, Jvyyvnz gur Oybbql Njshy Cbrg, guvf Ovyyl, Ovyyl va "Natry", Ovyyl va "Avtugznerf", naq V guvax gurer'f ng yrnfg bar zber. Abg gb zragvba Jvyy … bj.

    Naq Natry'f vairfgvtngvbaf. :-Q

    • RoseFyre says:

      Jvyyl gur fyrnml one bjare jub gheaf Natry bire gb Fcvxr va Jung'f Zl Yvar (whfg erjngpurq – abg tbvat gb unir gvzr yngre guvf jrrx, fb jnagrq gb fgnl nurnq). Jr znl or zvffvat bguref, gbb.

      …Ng yrnfg gurer'f ab Jvyyvnzf va Sversyl? Abg gung V pna erzrzore, naljnl?

  82. @Ivana2804 says:

    This is my favorite episode of BtVS up to this point. I remember that this was the episode of BtVS that made me think “wow, this show is really something much more serious and complex than I ever expected”. I think it's perfectly written and directed, and showing just how much the quality of the show has increased since the pilot. The last scene is a mission statement that things are not going to be as simple as good guys defeating monsters, but the entire episode seems to constantly question what the truth is. The moment that an idea is introduced, it’s subverted, and nothing can be taken at face value.

    For the arc, the most important thing is that we learn about Angel’s history with Drusilla and get a few hints about their complex and twisted relationship. Dru is extremely sinister in the chilling opening scene, going hunting and about to kill a little boy, when Angel turns up to stop her and tell her to leave Sunnydale with Spike – but at the same time, she is disturbingly human as she remembers the song her mother sang to her (just as she intends to make the little boy her food) and reminds Angel of her family that he killed. Unlike the vampires in season 1, Drusilla is a monster and a victim in equal measure. V’z abg fher V pbhyq rire dhvgr haqrefgnaq ure nggvghqr gb ure uhzna snzvyl naq Natry – fur vf gnxvat rirel punapr gb znxr uvz srry thvygl, ohg fur’f irel unccl gb unir uvz onpx jura ur’f fbhyyrff; qvq fur whfg yvxr gbezragvat uvz jvgu thvyg jura fur xarj ur pbhyq srry vg (jvgu n fbhy), vf fur whfg ubcvat ur’q ernyvmr ur fubhyq or rivy naq jvgu uvf snzvyl, vf gurer trahvar uvqqra erfragzrag bire ure snzvyl’f qrnguf gung pbzrf bhg bayl gura, vf fur whfg ovggre ng uvz sbe yrnivat uvf inzcver “snzvyl”?

    Drusilla’s and Angel’s meeting at the graveyard gets Buffy jealous since she sees them and misinterprets it as a lovers tryst (and Drusilla, in her old-fashioned dress, probably seems to Buffy just like the kind of women she thought Angel liked in Halloween). Buffy starts questioning whether she trusts Angel, even though it’s for the wrong reasons – she still seems to worry mostly about other women he could be interested in. But she gets harsh dose of reality when she learns the full story about Dru.

    Xander is generally annoying with his jealousy of any guy Buffy is in any way close to, but in this episode I find it actually funny , the way it's written and acted ("Oh, only in the literal sense" xD) especially especially when he does his best to use Angel to try to make Ford jealous (barking up the wrong tree, Ford has interests other than romance) and then to use Ford to make Angel jealous. I don't see Buffy having any romantic designs on Ford either, she did have a crush on him when they younger but that doesn't mean much. It just seems to be a case of Xander and Angel jumping to conclusions because, like so many other people, they tend to assume that an attractive woman + an attractive man = romance/sex (which is ridiculous, but sadly, many people's default thinking). But Ford probably reminds Buffy of childhood and happier, simpler times. And he seems too good to be true when it turns out he knows that she’s a Slayer and isn’t the least bit bothered by it.

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      The title can refer to a number of situations where the issue of trust, truth and lies come up:
      •Buffy wonders if she can trust Angel when she sees him with Drusilla in the graveyard.
      •On a less serious note, Jenny tells Giles he just has to trust her when it comes to the surprise she’s prepared for their next date… and then takes him to watch monster trucks. Poor Giles. (Jenny’s tastes are horrible – American football, monster trucks – but I like that they’re so contrary to stereotypical “chick” stuff.)
      •Drusilla isn’t lying, but she’s being evasive and manipulative when Spike asks her if she met with Angel and expresses concern and obvious jealousy, and when he starts showing annoyance with her crazy talk about her dead bird, immediately reverts to her little girl persona, whines and acts helpless until Spike melts. We’re starting to see that, below the romantic surface and sickeningly sweet cooing to each other, that relationship is far from perfect.
      •Ford tells Buffy he knows her secret, that she’s a Slayer, and she doesn’t have to lie to him.
      •Ford tells his vampire wannabe friend ‘Diego’ to trust him that he’ll help them all become vampires. Of course, they shouldn’t trust him, since intends to just let the vampires kill them, while he gets to be the only one to be sired.
      •Angel has a gut feeling that there’s something wrong with Ford and that he can’t be trusted, and even though Willow first thinks he’s just biased because of his jealousy, he turns out to be right. (V pna frr n cnenyyry orgjrra Natry va guvf rcvfbqr naq Knaqre va frnfba 2: Knaqre vf fb boivbhfyl wrnybhf bs Natry naq qvfyvxrq uvz rira orsber ur xarj Natry jnf n inzcver, gung abobql pbhyq gnxr uvf zvftvivatf nobhg Natry frevbhfyl, orpnhfr bs uvf oyngnag ovnf. Fgvyy, bar pbhyq fnl gung Knaqre’f thg srryvat jnf evtug.)
      •Willow finds it hard to have to hide the truth from Buffy, when Angel asks her not to tell Buffy that they are investigating Ford: “You want me to lie to her?!”
      •Buffy is upset that Angel, Willow and Xander have been investigating Ford behind her back, implying that she’s disappointed with “the people I trust”. She asks Angel to tell her the truth about Drusilla: “Don’t lie to me. I’m tired of it”. Angel replies that sometimes lies are necessary, because the truth is worse. Buffy tells him she can take the truth, but when she learns the horrible story of what he did to Drusilla, it proves to be almost too much.
      •Angel tells Buffy not to trust Ford.
      •Buffy calls Ford a lying scumbag. He replies “Everybody lies.”
      •In the last scene, Buffy asks Giles the exact opposite of what she asked Angel: “Lie to me” – finding the moral ambiguity and confusion of her world too much to bear, and asking for a comforting lie that everything is simple and the world is black and white. But she’s unable to lull herself into that belief.

      Oddly enough, one of the few people who don’t lie in this episode is Spike when he promises to sire Ford in exchange for having Buffy ‘delivered’. I thought at first he wasn’t going to keep his promise, judging by the sinister looks that he and Dru were giving Ford. But that might have been because they were aware that Buffy will stake Ford as soon as he rises from his grave anyway.

      The naïve vampire worshipers/wannabes in the Sunset Club – as Ford points out, lonely, unhappy teenagers looking for something to fill their lives with – seem to be a mockery not just of emo-goth scene but also Anne Rice-style vampire fiction that romanticizes vampires – and maybe also of out culture’s tendency to romanticize many real-life criminals. (The funniest thing is that today this looks a lot like a mockery of Twilight, obviously written much later. Gur fnzr gurzr jvyy ernccrne va frnfba 8 jvgu gur fgbelyvar nobhg inzcverf orpbzvat cbchyne naq npprcgrq ol gur znvafgernz choyvp.) On the other hand, Ford knows very well that vampires are evil, but doesn’t care and wants to be one anyway – and just like the vamp worshipers annoyed Angel, Spike finds Ford very irritating. Spike probably wants to be feared as an evil bloodsucking fiend that he is, rather than treated like a celebrity. There’s also a reference to the “live fast, die young and leave a beautiful corpse” philosophy, with Ford saying that they’re about to do what every American teenager should get a chance to do: die young and stay pretty.

      • @Ivana2804 says:

        While the episode is largely about the issue of moral complexity/ambiguity, it even seems to parody that idea for a moment, when vampire wannabe Chanterelle says to Angel: “You don’t have to be so confrontational about it, other viewpoints than yours may be valid”. Maybe it’s a reminder that, for all the moral ambiguity, the show doesn’t support moral relativism, there is still such a thing as truth and facts, and there are some things that are undeniably good/evil.

        But it’s not that simple – right after Angel points out how deluded the vampire worshipers are, and how they have no idea what vampires are really like, “what they look like, how they dress…”, his words are undercut when a guy walks by dressed exactly the same as Angel. Which, in a funny way, hints that BtVS itself could be, to an extent, blamed for the same things it parodies. The show walks a tight line between a portraying vampires as “nasty, pointy, bitey ones” – unlike in some other fictional universes, in Buffyverse they are, for the most part, definitely evil, violent and dangerous – and romanticizing them despite that, as with the character of Angel and his relationship with Buffy, as well as the Spike/Drusilla relationship. But what the show also does is constantly subvert those romantic images.

        Isn’t there a similarity between the way that the Sunset Club people think of vampires as harmless and good and noble, and the way that Buffy and the Scoobies treat Angel as “Care Bear with fangs”? Buffy has fallen for Angel as a mysterious, dark and brooding handsome older guy who seemed almost unattainable a lot of the time, and then as a good vampire/vampire with the soul, but fact is that she doesn’t really know a lot about him, and while she’s generally aware that he had a very dark past, she hasn’t really processed it fully. When she hears Drusilla’s story from Angel, it’s a real shock to her.

        And (I'm going on a bit of a tangent here) bar pbhyq fnl gur fnzr nobhg hf, gur snaf – jr jrer nyjnlf njner, ba gur nofgenpg yriry, bs gur pevzrf gung Natry be Fcvxr unq pbzzvggrq va gurve qnlf nf rivy fbhyyrff inzcf, ohg hfhnyyl vg qbrfa’g ernyyl ertvfgre hayrff 1) vg’f fubja ba fperra, naq rfcrpvnyyl vs 2) vg unccraf gb n punenpgre jr xabj naq pner nobhg. V’ir bsgra jbaqrerq ubj vg jbhyq nssrpg hf, gur snaqbz, vs jr tbg UOB-fglyr tencuvp fprarf bs ivbyrapr va gur Snatrq Sbhe synfuonpxf, fvapr zbfg ivrjref’ ernpgvba gb nalguvat – vs abg engvbany, guna rzbgvbany bar – vf nybat gur yvarf bs “ivqrb, be vg qvqa’g unccra”. Bs pbhefr, jr’er abg va-havirefr naq sbe hf gurl’er svpgvbany punenpgref, naq qba’g zvfhaqrefgnaq zr: V hggreyl qrfcvfr nal nggrzcgf gb gerng svpgvba nf erny yvsr be vzcbfr ‘zbeny’ boyvtngvbaf ba snaf gb yvxr/abg yvxr punenpgref – naq zbfg bs zl snibevgr punenpgref va Ohsslirefr unir orra rivy ng fbzr cbvag. Ohg V qb svaq vg shaal jura crbcyr rkprcg gur punenpgref va-havirefr gb npg gur fnzr (ubj pbhyq gurl gerng fhpu n jbbovr nf fbhyyrff Fcvxr fb onqyl, rgp.) be jura crbcyr pna npg fb vapbafvfgragyl jura znxvat whqtzragf: abobql oyvaxf jura Natry/Natryhf xvyyf erqfuvegf ohg bayl jura ur fancf arpxf bs znwbe pnfg zrzoref vg orpbzrf na vffhr; n ohapu bs snaf jvyy gryy lbh ubj zhpu gurl ybirq Fcvxr jura ur jnf gur “pbby ivyynva” naq/be jura ur jnf orvat shaal naq naablvat rirelbar, ohg gura gurl pbhyq arire yvxr uvz nsgre ur gevrq gb encr Ohssl… arire zvaq gung ur unq qbar zhpu jbefr guvatf znal gvzrf, naq jvgubhg nal erzbefr, onpx jura ur jnf gur “pbby ivyynva”, naq wbxrq nobhg uvf cnfg zheqref jvgubhg nal thvyg juvyr ur jnf gur pbzvp eryvrs.


        • @Ivana2804 says:

          But on the other hand –should we take everything that Buffy says about vampires as fact, just because she’s the hero of the show? When she starts explaining to Ford: “that’s not how it works. You die, and a demon sets up shop in your old house, and it walks, and it talks, and it remembers your life, but it’s not you”… some take it at face value, but this is just her belief, taught to her by Giles (an echo of his teachings in Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest), jub va ghea yrnearq vg sebz gur Pbhapvy bs Jngpuref. Buffy knows, first hand, that vampires are dangerous, cruel killers. But Buffy has never been sired, she’s never been a vampire, and neither has Giles, or the Watchers who originated the theory (if any of them were ever sired, the other Watchers, obviously, wouldn’t believe them). So unless someone who was killed by a vampire came from heaven to tell the Watchers that their spirit was in heaven while the demon had control over their body… the other Watchers, Giles and Buffy actually can’t have a clue what it’s like to be sired. But the Watchers certainly had a reason to paint a black and white picture to their teenage Slayers, to make it easier for them to kill vampires, if they think of them as completely inhuman creatures, rather than former humans. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is the episode where Buffy and Giles are uncharacteristically shown referring to vampires as “it” rather than “he” or “she”, emphasizing the idea that vampires are not people, but things. (It’s interesting to note that Drusilla seems to use the word person as synonymous to human – she says to the child in the graveyard “I am not a person”; but Spike, on the other hand, says “I am a bad, rude man” .) But they’re very inconsistent about this – even within a single scene!

          Buffy: (picks up the picture) Who’s this?
          Giles: Um, she’s called Drusilla, a sometime paramour of Spike’s. She was killed by an angry mob in Prague.

          Just a moment later, a blonde female vampire out of the library:

          Giles: A book! It took one of my books!
          Jenny: Well, at least someone in this school is reading.
          Buffy: He said he killed it. That’s the vampire Ford said he killed.

          So, an anonymous vamp is “it”, just like those canon fodder vamps that rise out of their graves, but any vampire whom they get to know as an individual becomes a “he” and “she”.

          Giles: Uh, I’ve been researching your friend Spike. Uh, the profile is fairly unappetizing. But I-I still haven’t got a bead on why he’s here.

          Ironically, Buffy defeats Spike in this episode by taking Dru hostage – expecting the vampire to have a human motivation, and would care more about the life of his girlfriend than about feeding on humans. (And Buffy at this point knew nothing about Spike’s and Dru’s relationship except that she was his girlfriend – she didn’t see him act tender and caring with her like we have, so this was a pure guess.) And if Buffy actually believed in the PbJ party line deep inside, she either 1) would have to concede that Angel is not a ‘person’, or 2) she wouldn’t be bothered by his history with Drusilla, since she would have to think that Angel, the souled vamp, never committed the crimes he’s just confessed to, but that a demon using his body did. I’d say that the idea that the vampire and the dead human are completely separate entities is just another comforting lie that Buffy would like to believe in, so things could be simple, black and white. For two reasons. First, killing things instead of killing evil people – it marks the difference between “not a killer” and “righteous killer”. Second, it’s disturbing to think that every human, even the nicest people, have the capacity to turn into evil versions of their old selves and become vicious killers, when “infected” by the darkness, “the demon”, and freed from morality and inhibitions.

          • @Ivana2804 says:

            About Buffy's ILY. Angel elicits a declaration of love from Buffy, and that after she asks him to tell her the truth about Drusilla. It seems that his mysteriousness is mostly due to his fear that Buffy would reject him if she found out all about his past. It’s like he had to get an assurance first, before telling her the awful truth. (It’s also interesting that he hasn’t still told her or anyone out loud that he loves her, even though it’s mostly assumed by everyone, and he didn’t deny it when Giles and Xander said he was in love with Buffy. Znlor vg’f orpnhfr bs NgF frnfba 4 naq uvf “Jrer jr va ybir?” gb Pbeqryvn, ohg V guvax gung vg’f n punenpgre genvg sbe Natry, ur vf hanoyr gb or bcra nobhg uvf srryvatf orsber ur trgf n thnenagrr gung gur jbzna srryf gur fnzr.)

            This is the first time that Buffy tells anyone in the show “I love you” in a romantic way. And it’s worth noting that , rira sbe gur frnfba 2 Ohssl jub jnf fgvyy n ybg zber rzbgvbanyyl bcra guna va gur yngre frnfbaf, it is very hard to get those words across as she says them to Angel for the first time. (Vapvqragnyyl, V pna’g uryc abgvpvat gung FZT cynlf vg va pbzcyrgryl gur fnzr jnl gung fur cynlrq Ohssl gryyvat Fcvxr “V ybir lbh” va gur frevrf svanyr (frr vg sbe lbhefrys) Bqqyl rabhtu, V’ir frra dhvgr n srj crbcyr fnl gung fur qvqa’g fbhaq pbaivapvat va Pubfra, ohg V qba’g guvax V’ir frra gur fnzr fnvq nobhg Yvr gb Zr.

            Buffy says: “I love you. I don’t know if I trust you” – not the first time the issue of trusting Angel has come up: during her bitchy phase in When She Was Bad, she told him she didn’t trust him; at this point, she’s unsure, ohg V guvax fur qvq gehfg uvz pbzcyrgryl ng gur gvzr bs Fhecevfr. Ohg jung unccrarq nsgrejneqf zhfg unir punatrq guvatf – va Fnapghnel, Ohssl jvyy vzcyl ntnva, qhevat n urngrq nethzrag, gung fur qbrfa’g gehfg be rira xabj Natry. Vg frrzf gung Ohssl jvyy punatr ure bhgybbx ba ybir n ybg ol frnfba 6, jura fur jvyy pynvz gung vg’f vzcbffvoyr gb ybir jvgubhg gehfg (be ng yrnfg, jvgu gur xvaq bs ybir gung qbrfa’g ohea bhg hagvy abguvat vf yrsg), juvpu frrzf gb pynfu jvgu jung fur gryyf Natry va Yvr gb Zr. Ohg V guvax vg jnf gur genhzn bs ure ‘Natryhf’ rkcrevrapr gung punatrq ure.

            Natry’f ercyl “Znlor lbh fubhyqa’g rvgure”, naq Ohssl’f nafjre: “Znlor V fubhyq or gur bar gb qrpvqr!” vf punenpgrevfgvp bs gurve eryngvbafuvc va trareny, jvgu Natry tbvat sebz chefhvat ure gb chyyvat njnl naq gelvat gb cebgrpg ure sebz uvf bja qnexarff – ohg hygvzngryl znxvat qrpvfvbaf sbe ure, bire naq bire, jvgu n fbzrjung cngebavmvat oryvrs gung ur xabjf orfg jung vf tbbq sbe ure.

            • @Ivana2804 says:

              The last scene between Buffy and Giles is one of my favorites.

              A few other things in this episode.

              Buffy says that vampires are picky over who they sire. Yet Drusilla in School Hard sired Sheila, who was brought by Spike just to be ‘food’. Maybe Dru wasn’t that picky due to her mental illness?

              Giles’ book has a photo of Drusilla (presumably taken when she was already a vampire, since there was no mention of her human life, parents, last name, or even if Drusilla was her real first name, which I doubt), but no information other than she was Spike’s “sometime paramour” who was killed by an angry mob in Prague. Another example that Watcher’s books get it wrong a lot of times, and contain very meagre info. url nyfb graq gb vtaber srznyr inzcverf – oneryl n zragvba bs Qehfvyyn, ab zragvba bs Qneyn, nf bccbfrq gb gur erchgngvba bs Natryhf naq Fcvxr nf gur jbefg inzcverf va uvfgbel, qrfcvgr gur snpg gung gur jbzra cnegvpvcngrq va zbfg bs gurfr pevzrf naq jrer whfg nf onq nf gurl jrer. Fvta bs gur gvzrf jura gur obbxf jrer jevggra naq bs PbJ’f cngevnepuny ovnf – zra ner anghenyyl frra nf yrnqref, naq nf gubfr gung ner yvxryl gb or ivbyrag pevzvanyf, juvyr jbzra pna’g or nalguvat zber guna “cnenzbhef”?

              Fb zhpu sberfunqbjvat: Ohssl fnlf “V yvxr fhecevfrf”. Natry gryyf Qehfvyyn gb gnxr Fcvxr naq yrnir Fhaalqnyr, be ryfr “vg jvyy raq onqyl, sbe nyy bs hf”. Qehfvyyn fnlf nobhg Ohssl: “Cbbe guvat, fur unf ab vqrn jung’f va fgber”. Naq ubj evtug fur jnf – gubhtu ng gur gvzr, guvf cebonoyl fbhaqrq yvxr n guerng nobhg jung Qehfvyyn vagraqrq gb qb. (Tbbq wbo bs frggvat jebat rkcrpgngvbaf, fubj. ) Natry fnlf gung Qehfvyyn, nf n uhzna, jnf vaabprag naq cher, naq na bofrffvba bs uvf; fnzr qrfpevcgvba pbhyq nccyl gb Ohssl. Nsgre ybfvat uvf fbhy, Natry(hf) jvyy zragnyyl gbegher naq gel gb oernx Ohssl gur fnzr jnl ur oebxr Qehfvyyn.

              There’s just one thing that’s wrong in this episode, and that’s Angel’s horrible makeup. What were they thinking? It seems that the makeup artists were trying to make him look paler, but he just looks like he has white powder and pink lip gloss on his face… maybe he was a glam rock fan. 😉 (Well I guess Willow's makeup too, since the others posters pointed it out… But I didn't notice that – maybe I was too distracted by Angel's makeup!

            • arctic_hare says:

              Don't use the word "bitchy" on this site.

          • robin_comments says:

            the other Watches, Giles and Buffy actually can’t have a clue what it’s like to be sired. But the Watchers certainly had a reason to paint a black and white picture to their teenage Slayers, to make it easier for them to kill vampires, if they think of them as completely inhuman creatures, rather than former humans.
            …I’d say that the idea that the vampire and the dead human are completely separate entities is just another comforting lie that Buffy would like to believe in, so things could be simple, black and white.

            I love all your thoughts on this and feel that you are spot on. A++

          • Jr unira'g yrnearq nobhg gur Pbhapvy bs Jngpuref lrg, fb V pvcurerq gubfr ersreraprf. On the upside, PbJ is a pretty great rot13.

      • arctic_hare says:

        "Crazy" is an ableist word, do not use it on this site.

  83. Argh, I'm so behind, I've only just finished Halloween but figured I'd comment on the whole "love" thing anyway.

    I think there's 2 points you're missing, Mark.

    1) These episodes aren't taking place in real time. By which I mean, weeks have passed between each episode so they might have had extra interactions that we haven't seen. In Reptile boy, during the ritual, one of the Frat boys said they did the whole sacrifice thing on the tenth day of the tenth month so almost an entire month passed between that episode & the next (Halloween). Plus, Halloween ended with Angel & Buffy hanging out in Buffy's room. I don't know about you but I doubt they parted ways the moment the credits began to roll.

    Admittedly, I can't remember if anyone lists the date in this episode but I like to think that they might have had some more coffee dates since the start of the previous episode.

    2) Buffy's only 16. I can't remember if the series ever states if she's had previous relationships before but I'm assuming that this is her first adult relationship. If that's the case then there's a chance that she might not know what love feels like exactly. She might be getting love confused with lust for all we know. That's just what I'm going to posit anyway, I have to re-watch the episode still. I can't remember much of Buffy & Angel's interactions at the moment.

  84. Aslee says:

    "Everybody lies."

    I have this theory that Ford went to Doctor House when he got sick. Or, at least, he went to Wilson and met House during an interrupted session or something.

    Poor Wilson, though. You know how he gets when he loses a patient. 🙁

  85. UnstrungZero says:

    I don't know if anyone's gonna look at comments this late, but here is a VERY VERY VERY SPOILERY ICON (for ALL seasons of Buffy, I think. At least up through Season 6) that I made of Giles' big lie at the end.


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