In the thirteenth episode of the fourth series of Doctor Who, we learn what happens when the Doctor regenerates and then THIS IS SERIOUSLY TOO SAD FOR ME. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to watch Doctor Who.
I have a lot of thoughts. And I just wrote over 4,500 words for Mark Reads, so buckle in, my friends. It’s going to be a lengthy ride.
I spoke pretty candidly in my review for the finale of series two about my attachment to Rose and how I was able to relate to her struggle in my own way. I wanted to provide a bit of additional context before I heaped my praise on Donna because I didn’t want it to seem like I was emotionally cheating on Rose.
Straight up, Donna Noble has been my favorite companion of the Doctor. I still like the previous two companions quite a bit, but so much of Donna’s character has grown on me, from her sense of humor, to the way she interacts with the Doctor, to the rather brilliant, unthanked way that she has forced the Doctor to confront what he has become over the years.
In an entirely different way than Rose, however, I found myself feeling a sense of affinity for the character created by this show. One of my only complaints about this series finale is that by jamming so many plots and characters into the story, I felt that there wasn’t enough time spent on Donna as there could have been, especially after what she did over the course of the fourth season.
Donna was developed not only as a foil to the Doctor but as an exploration on self-esteem. We all knew that Donna was important to the story, that she had done wonderful, courageous things for the entire universe, and yet she still referred to herself as a temp. As the temp. As someone who was disposable and forgettable and worthless in her own eyes. (I think “Turn Left†had a great deal of this self-introspection as well.)
Self-esteem has always played a large part in my identity. I don’t have any stories to tell and I’m not really sure I want to right now. But, if you’ve gleaned anything from what I’ve shared with the world, you know I’ve had some…difficult moments in my past. A lot of what Mark Reads and Mark Watches has done for me is to give me an outlet for my experience and my voice and it’s allowed me to come to terms with a lot of what I’ve gone through. One of the harder things to talk about, through all of it, is self-esteem and self-worth. I think for a lot of people (and please correct me if I’m overstepping myself here) it becomes increasingly complicated to discuss self-esteem because other people, especially those who haven’t experienced bouts of really awful self doubt, are quick to immediately erase the sensation. They want to tell you that what you’re feeling is wrong, that you are not the best judge of your character or situation, and that everything will be ok. Funny thing about it is that it’s generally done with the greatest intentions, as a way to cheer a person up. And I get that. I’ve probably done it myself in the past.
To hear that sensation and feeling vocalized on television was a bizarre thing for me. As Donna continued to insist that she wasn’t worth it, despite that we knew it, I did feel as if I could step into the same situation and nothing would be unfamiliar about it. Ok, well, clearly I am not fighting Daleks to destroy a Reality Bomb. But you get the point. (PS: That is a terrible name for a bomb, FYI.)
I think that Donna is a wonderful character and may always be my favorite one from this entire show, and it hurt so much to see her in pain in this episode because I knew there’d always be a part of me that could relate to her. I have to come to the realization myself that I have done good things and that I’m a person who deserves to enjoy who he is, that’s it’s perfectly ok to take care of yourself and feel proud of yourself and to celebrate my accomplishments. That is not what I was raised with, and despite that I fought it so hard (and still do), most days it is hard to escape that voice in my head that echoes what my parents used to tell me, that I am worthless and pointless and useless, that I was a mistake from the beginning.
I am not. And even if I have to consciously tell myself this, day after day, it was really empowering to watch the same realization on screen with Donna Noble. Sometimes, you have to do this yourself. That’s perfectly ok.
“Journey’s End†is not without it’s problems. Reality Bomb? Really? Ok, that’s pretty small. Rose’s end? ONE OF THE CREEPIEST THINGS I’VE EVER SEEN. Hey, did you miss me, Rose? How about you spend eternity in a parallel universe with a human copy of myself? Holy god, that is so, so, so, so uncomfortable. RIGHT?
But even right from the beginning, this episode is SO TERRIBLY EXCITING. I would never have expected the Doctor to regenerate as himself by using that severed hand that’s been sitting around for years, and the creation of another Doctor was even more shocking. TWO OF THE SAME DOCTOR. Oh my god, in what world is having two David Tennants not the most amazing thing ever?
We also get the return of Mickey (HHHNNNNGGGG) and Jackie, and it’s when I started to feel there was some sort of a reason for this sort of convergence. Why were all of these people come together at this exact moment? There had to be one beyond the need for Davies to show off.
As all of these people revealed their secret weapons, I thought I had it figured out. Was this Davies’s statement about loyalty, about how the companions of the Doctor were so inspired by them that they’d willing to risk anything to save him? Would Sarah Jane, Mickey, Jack, and Jackie destroy themselves via a Warpstar? Would Martha use the Osterhagen Key to DESTROY ALL OF PLANET EARTH? Holy god that key.
It’s eerie how much the scenes with Davros and the Doctor feel like an impromptu trial, that the Doctor’s companions were a parade of witnesses against him, and for me, it is all the more uncomfortable than any Reality Bomb or Dalek. Has the Doctor really inspired that level of violence, that willingness to destroy, in the people he has traveled with? Even if that question is left unanswered, what is answered is the fact that so many people really have died because of the Doctor.
“The man who keeps running, never looking back because he dare not…out of shame! This is my final victory, Doctor; I have shown you yourself.â€
Davies is not a perfect writer and he can be wildly inconsistent. But when he attempts to make grand statements about humanity, or at least the humanity of his characters, he routinely knocks it straight out of the park. He needed this. The Doctor needed be told about his actions and most especially the ramifications of them.
This realization affects the entire end of this episode, from the moment the TARDIS shows up to the final moments with Wilfred. Despite that this episode is transfixing, exciting, and fairly depressing, when Donna arrives, it’s a very brief moment of watching Catherine Tate and David Tennant prove exactly how much talent they have. It is funny to see them imitate the more ridiculous tendencies of each others’ character, but it was also sad to me, because I knew that soon, Catherine Tate would be gone from the mythology of this show. But before that happened, we get to see her become a Time Lord. (Well, at least partly so.) It was one of the most enjoyable things I’ve seen this show do, and I watched her zip about the Crucible with a giant smile plastered on my face.
But that joy did not last long. As Davros was defeated, the Crucible self-destructed, and the Doctor’s companions scattered about time and space, I knew I had to deal with the inevitable. Donna was now half Time Lord. It couldn’t last.
If “Doomsday†was emotionally difficult to watch, then the end of “Journey’s End†is downright unbearable. Donna Noble changed the entire universe, saved everything and everyone, and protected reality itself. But the knowledge of this won’t matter. Being part Time Lord is killing Donna, and I watched in terror, tears in my eyes, as the Doctor placed his hands on Donna’s temples as she begged him to stop, and took away her memories.
Donna Noble will never remember that she saved the world. She will never remember her travels with the Doctor and she will never remember that she mattered. If that is not the definition of tragedy, then I don’t know what is.
THOUGHTS
- Kasper has informed me that the name of Bad Wolf Bay is some of the poorest usage of Norwegian he has ever seen. Instead, it’s translation is more like, “Beach of the Wolf Who Is Rather Shite At Being A Wolf.â€
- I’m also rather sad that we may never see Jackie ever again. I LOVE HER SO MUCH.
- JACK HARKNESS CALLED MICKEY “BEEFCAKE.†Well, at least the two of us are on the same page about how hot Mickey is.
- GERMAN DALEKS!!!!
- “But, every night, Doctor…when it gets dark, and the stars come out, I’ll look up…on her behalf. I’ll look up at the sky…and think of you.†MY CREYS.
- “Oi! Watch it, earthgirl!â€
- I found it interesting that Dalek Caan saw what would happen and went ahead with it anyway. So my only question about that is: How can they bring back the Daleks ever again?
- “I just want you to know, there are worlds out there, safe in the sky because of her. That there are people living in the light, and singing songs of Donna Noble, a thousand, million light years away. They will never forget her, while she can never remember. And for one moment, one shining moment, she was the most important woman in the whole wide universe.â€
So here’s what the upcoming schedule will be like:
Tuesday: The Next Doctor
Wednesday: The Genesis of the Daleks (classic Who)
Thursday: Planet of the Dead
Friday: The Waters of Mars
Monday: The End of Time, Part I
Tuesday: The End of Time, Part II
Wednesday: The Mind Robber (classic Who)
Thursday: Start series 5!!!!
Sound acceptable? PARTY TIME.
Journey’s end…Journey’s End…just afdsdgfhzsgkj.
I wasn’t going to write a comment. But, I could be wrong here, I believe that most people will be the ones who dislike it. And that’s okay! But I do like it and I wanted to make sure there was at least some representation of people who liked Journey’s End.
I know lots of people hate it. I don’t care. I love it. I don’t care that Donna saved the day by literally pressing magic buttons. It was The DoctorDonna! Doctor Donna. Oh Donna. Oh poor, poor Donna. Everything you did and saw and realised and it’s all just taken from you. I hate it. And the Doctor! His *best* friend. That woman made him better! And she was better because of him too! The fun they had, the things they learnt from each other. 🙁 sad faces forever. Tears forever. This entire episode is so sobworthy throughout on re watch.
I know there are people who don’t like that Donna’s character growth was just taken from her, and I see what they mean. I hate that too. But I hate it in a ‘in universe’ sense. From the perspective of it being a television programme, I think it is (well, evil, for one thing) brilliant. You don’t expect family programmes to do that sort of horrifyingly sad stuff to main characters. I love that Doctor Who can and does make me feel so strongly about its characters.
On first watch I didn’t cry till Donna started pleading with the Doctor not to take it away from her. (I find it interesting and terribly sad to note that she didn’t pull away or try to physically fight him. She knew, then, that he had to do it. And still she couldn’t bare the idea of going back to the way she was living before him.) And when Wilf said he’d look up to the sky for the Doctor. Asfdghgsjaj. I can’t bear it when elderly characters are sad or crying. I loved though, that Wilf also did note that the Doctor was going to be alone again. Alone again with the knowledge of what he’d had to do to Donna.
And even through the fact that I was sobbing, I love the scene with all the Doctor’s friends flying the TARDIS as it should be and taking the earth back home. It filled me with joy on first watch and on re watch too. Martha grinning at the audience- er, sorry, at Jack :P- and the music (Murray Gold, I don’t care what people say, your music is perfection and everything you try to make me feel works!) and all the smiles. That entire scene I sobbed at what was coming and I grinned and laughed too. Very confusing. But again, I love that Doctor Who, a silly, fantasy/sci fi, childrens show can do that.
To you, RTD! For being brilliant 😀 (or at least, *I* think you’re brilliant. I’m quite prepared for the tonnes of people who hate the episode and hate him)
I agree with all of this so hard.
I agree I agree. This episode had a little cheese and a lot of utterly brilliant tragedy, and I loved it. I love that Doctor Who isn't always full of happy endings.
I agree with this comment 100%. You Are Not Alone!
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Every. Single. Word.
Her pleading is an interesting parallel to River Song refusing to let the Doctor change her past so she wouldn't die in the Library, too.
I agree so much! There is quite a bit that is cheesy and definitely off about this episode, but it has lots to like about it, too.
Yeah, I think that so much in this ep is totally rediculous and in some ways not very good but that doesn't stop it from making me happy/sad.
YANA! I agree with EVERYTHING HERE, right up to the not being able to handle it when elderly people cry.
Before I get into the epic sadness of this episode, I think we could all use a bit of cheering up:
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And now I can finally link to some of my favorite Who vids:
USE SOMEBODY- A perfect video of the Doctor and Donna's friendship. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XHg2IK_Y0M
Don't Stop Now- Doctor/Donna, they had the best of times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkIcg1FSw54
The Scientist- A Donna tribute http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn17fsN4Nb4
Everybody Lives http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IBrZJIxlJw
Zombie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPUJZtZdGz0&fe…
No Bravery- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wff56Sgwr-A
Get Out Alive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDMtXwCzVsQ&fe…
A Better Way of Living Your Life- Doctor's Companions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEoP5uArwg0
We Are http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpohNktoIuk
German Daleks rock! I was so happy to see Mickey and Jackie again, and I love the scene of the Doctor and friends piloting the TARDIS and sending the earth home accompanied by the "Song of Freedom."
Cause you know why this TARDIS is always rocking about the place? It's designed to have six pilots and I have to do it single-handed.
This makes me so sad for both the Doctor and the TARDIS.
Continued below…
I just want you to know there are worlds out there, safe in the sky, because of her. That there are people living in the light, and singing songs of Donna Noble, a thousand million light years away.
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Mark, little did you know when you first posted the Doctor in the rain gif just how much epic sadness it contained.
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I just want a mate
Donna. Oh, Donna Noble. I am so sorry. But we had the best of times. The best.
He asked for a mate, and he got Donna. She was his best friend. Wilf said that she was better with the Doctor, but it was Donna that made the Doctor better. They were *both* better together, and that's why the Doctor and Donna are my favorite TARDIS team. She made the Doctor stop, she stood up to him, and she laughed with him. DONNA NOBLE I WILL LOVE YOU FOREVER.
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Handy:Cause you're special.
Donna: Oh, I keep telling you, I'm not!
Handy: No, but you are. Oh. You really don't believe that, do you? I can see, Donna… what you're thinking. All that attitude. All that lip. Cause all this time… you think you're not worth it.
And now the Turn Left Universe is creeping into ours. Even in a universe where she has met the Doctor, and she HAS been brilliant, she still thinks she's nothing. But she was brilliant. Not the DoctorDonna, but plain old Donna Noble, the fastest temp in Chiswick. I kind of wish that Handy would have been able to stay with Donna. Their adventures would have been epic, even if she couldn't remember the Doctor. The brief DoctorDonna/Handy scenes in this episode still put a smile on my face despite knowing what is coming.
And know this, Doctor Donna. You will never be forgotten. Our children will sing of the Doctor Donna. And our childrens' children. And the wind and the ice and the snow will carry your names forever. And so will we.
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THIS GIF IS THE MOST APPROPRIATE GIF I COULD FIND. ALL THE TEARS FOREVER.
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Goodbye, Donna Noble. You were brilliant. BELIEVE IT.
I think now the links to the Doctor Who/Doctor Horrible mash-ups from MonkeyWithJetpacks can be posted:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MonkeyWithJetpacks#g/…
Damn you for Toy Story gif!!!
All the tears *sadface*
For that first gif, I love you for all time.
But do you love me more than Rose Loves Drugs?
…No, no I'm afraid I don't. I'm sorry. I still love you almost as much.
Oh don't be sorry! I would be worried if you loved me as much as Rose Loves Drugs!
Greatest meme or greatest meme
greatest meme I love it almost as much as Rose Loves Drugs.
Hahahahah, Rose and her drugs! Those are fantastic. 🙂
I will admit, as much as I was happy Rose and the Doctor found a way to be together, I was a little off kilter about the Rose and Handy (I love that name, hahahahhahaa, laughing so much). It's just weird.
Everybody Lives is the BEST FANVID OF ALL TIME. It makes me cry, every single time. And at the same time, gives me so much hope.
I was teary, too. It's that voiceover by Alex Kingston that does it for me…
Yes, that really was a great voiceover.
These episodes! If you thought Mockingjay made you cry all the tears, how about the end of Donna’s travels with the Doctor? This episode has a few points that I didn’t like, but overall, the feelings it inspires make that stuff less important overall. The thing about the Daleks is that, to me, they just don’t seem that scary. It seems like everytime they show up, even though they are all evil and such, they are defeated almost out of hand. In this episode particularly, it feels like the Daleks were secondary to all of the Time Lord stuff going on. I will say that I love creepy, insane Dalek Caan, however and Davros was basically the craziest lunatic I’ve ever seen on TV, so I’m not dismissing any of that.
To me, the bigger plot was that the Doctor, who always sees himself as so alone, was suddenly surrounded by people who were there to fight alongside him. When Davros talked about the Doctor fashioning people into weapons, I did not get that sense at all. What he did, to me, was give people the courage to stand up for themselves, against forces that were seen as so much greater than they were. Maybe blowing things up isn’t the best way to handle things, but it sure beats sobbing and cowering under the bed (which is what I would be doing).
I want to reply to this part in particular because – YES! As much as this series was about Donna realizing that she's better than she is, it was also about the Doctor learning that the things he does and the things people do for him aren't bad (unlike Davros creating the Daleks, which that was just to have a well-oiled machine of destruction). Yes when Davros is piling all that guilt on the Doctor, it may seem terrible but the difference is exactly what you said – the Doctor takes people who may have not had the courage to stand up for themselves and he shows them that they can do amazing things (which is why I love the part right before the Doctor, Jack, Rose and Donna all walk out of the TARDIS to face the Daleks and the Doctor tells each of them how brilliant they are).
Exactly! I hope the Doctor can take that to heart and not focus on the way Davros was trying to twist things.
What I did like, no LOVE, about this episode, is the tragedy that was the end of Donna’s travels with the Doctor. To me, she has the saddest ending of the New Who companions: leaving behind this life where she became something great, where she gained confidence and helped to save whole worlds, where she left behind the idea that she was “just a temp” and was just brilliant and wonderful and amazing all on her own, and she never gets to remember any of it. Think about that for a moment … even if Rose never sees the Doctor again, she has her memories of all the wonders she saw and the things they did and Donna has nothing. It makes me want to cry forever ïŒ
And so in the end, the Doctor is alone … again. And when Wilf is talking to him in the rain, it was just so heartbreaking. I’m glad this episode didn’t end with something amusing, it needed to be just as sad and melancholy as it was … in short, while this episode wasn’t *perfect*, it kind of was.
Wow, long comment is long, lol.
I don't know why I had to break that comment up so much to fit it in, but WHATEVER NOW YOU HAVE MY ~ALL MY THOUGHTS~
Ten 2 doesn't really bother me, if you can buy into the whole concept of regeneration where the body dies but the mind lives on in a new body is Ten 2 really that weird?
I don't know if he really ~bothers~ me, as much as I don't like the way he was made a "Doctor Light" for Rose, you know?
Love love love your comment, especially this part. The tragedy that is Donna's ending was handled so well.
Why thank you, for once I had time to think out a comment that was more than 2 sentences lol.
Haha, I know the feeling. I love writing long comments with ALL MY MANY MANY THOUGHTS but sometimes there is just not time.
There's a small part of me that hopes somewhere deep down Donna still remembers her time with the Doctor. Maybe not all the time travel and aliens and adventures, but the fact that she isn't "just a temp" and those subconscious memories help her to think better of herself. I have no basis for this, but it makes me feel better.
I love this thought, I hope so too!
If Agatha Christie never quite forgot what happened to her with the giant wasp, I think Donna Noble has a chance to remember the feelings of her own brilliance.
Ah. I had such mixed feelings about this episode when it first aired, but now I am firmly in the LIKE camp. There is a lot going on here, and I think that it does manage to work, barely. Everything is hanging together by a thread, but in the end it gets the job done.
I was lolling pretty hard about how convinced you were that this was the end for Ten because that was pretty much the opposite experience of those who were watching it in real time since it was pretty common knowledge that this was not Ten’s last episode.
So before I seriously start to talk about things, I need to squee for a second. MICKEY AND JACKIE!!! I love them sfm and I missed them. SO good to see them again. And Mickey is looking fiiiiiine, might I add. The way that he kisses the gun before he puts it down? FOR SOME REASON I FIND THIS SUPER SEXY. And Jackie is her hilarious self when she lets the Doctor believe for a second that she named her son after him. LOL LOL. As much as I love Wilf, Rose has Mickey AND Jackie, so I have to say that her family is my favorite companion family. It was good to see them again.
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Jackie and Mickey hug!
One of the highlights of this episode is actually getting to see the various companions interact. We got a bit of that last episode with the Interglactic Skype session, but it gets even better here. There are just a ton of little companion interaction moments that I love, like when Mickey and Jackie show up to save Sarah Jane.
Mickey: We Smiths got to stick together.
And I think the meeting between Rose and Martha is brilliant too.
Rose: Ooooh. She’s good.
Martha: Who’s that?
Rose: My name’s Rose. Rose Tyler.
Martha: Oh my God. He found you.
(So for those of you complaining about Rose’s frustrated remarks last episode, I think this shows that Rose ISN’T petty and self-centered AND Martha is happy for the Doctor. She’s not jealous of Rose anymore. Therefore everyone should stop whining and admit that both Martha and Rose are fully awesome.)
And the reunion of Mickey and Jack!
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Jack: Just my luck. I climb through two miles of ventilation shafts chasing life signs on this thing, and who do I find? Mickey Mouse!
Mickey: You can talk, Captain Cheesecake.
[they hug]
Jack: And that’s beefcake.
Mickey: And that’s enough hugging.
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And then of course you have that awesome scene of Companion Happy Fun Times while flying the Tardis and it is WONDERFUL AND HAPPY. (Sorry to tell you though, Ten, soon you are going to be standing out in the rain crying all by yourself. FOREVER ALONE.)
Although with all those interactions, I still feel like this episode is really missing a conversation between Jack and Rose. Rose was incredibly significant in his life (lol, I mean he even stalked her childhood), and she was the one that made him immortal, but yeah. That’s never talked about. I know that some dialogue like that was in some drafts of the script, but it never made it to air.
Now I have to wonder about what Davros says about how the Doctor turns his companions into warriors. I mean, in some sense that’s true. I think that the Doctor’s reaction to this revelation isn’t shame, exactly. He’s not ashamed of his companions. But I think he does feel badly because it’s true. He changes the people that he meets and he does turn them into something resembling soldiers.
I mean, as fierce and fabulous as Martha is, she has taken on the mindset of a soldier with the Osterhaggen key. And she’s super clever about how to use it. Same goes for Sarah Jane and Jack, using the warp star. IT doesn’t make them terrible people. Not at all! But it does show the Doctor how he transforms these people.
And of course Davros is absolutely right when he points out how many people have died because of the Doctor. Joan said it to him in series 3 and it’s still true. And this is what I meant by the fact that bringing back Davros makes it personal. This isn’t just about the Daleks. It’s deeper than that. It’s about how Davros is the creator of the Daleks and the Doctor is the creator of these “children of time”, as Davros calls them.
Davros: The Doctor. The man who keeps running, never looking back because he dare not out of shame. This is my final victory, Doctor. I have show you yourself.
As an unapologetic shipper, I love all of the little Doctor/Rose moments.
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That hug when he doesn’t regenerate is so sweet. Rose just buries her face in his shoulder while the Doctor grins like an idiot and they hold onto each other for dear life.
And then you have that huge smile on the Doctor’s face when she tells him that they built the dimension cannon so that she could come back. There’s a really cute mix of pride in the smile for the fact that Rose was building a dimension cannon and also a bit of smug “she liiiiikes me” in that grin too. LOVE IT.
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Rose: It’s the darkness.
Donna: The stars were going out.
Rose: One by one. We looked at the sky and they were just dying. Basically we’d been building this travel machine- this dimension cannon so that I could. Well so that I could-
Doctor: What?
Rose: So that I could come back. [Doctor grins] Shut up.
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I also love that moment where the Daleks are destroying the Tardis with Donna inside and there is nothing that the Doctor can do about it. And Rose can’t do anything about it either. So she does the one thing she can do. She quietly stands beside him and holds his hand because as the Doctor says in “Fear Her” sometimes you just need a hand to hold.
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Also, THE DOCTOR AND ROSE ARE THE BIGGEST DORKS TO EVER DORK AND IT’S WONDERFUL.
Doctor: Jack, what’s her name?
Jack: Gwen Cooper.
Doctor: Tell me Gwen Cooper, are you from an old Cardiff family?
Gwen: Yes, all the way back to the 1800s.
Doctor: I thought so… special genetic multiplicity!
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At first, I was really unsure of what to think about Rose’s ending. I mean, it’s pretty obvious that this was what RTD had planned for her for a long time, and seeing as Billie wasn’t coming back to the show, it really was RTD doing the best he could for his characters. That hand of Ten’s has been just chillin’ in the background since “The Christmas Invasion” and it wasn’t without purpose. Even the fact that Ten has two distinct suits that he wears was necessary so that in this episode it would be easier to distinguish between the two Doctors.
After reading the book that RTD wrote about the writing of the series (which is really fascinating btw) and seeing how many versions of the beach scene he wrote, I can see how much he struggled with giving Rose a proper ending. To be honest, I think that I would have been happier with it if we’d seen Rose interact with Cloen more before the beach scene. BUT we did still get plenty of screen time of Cloen with Donna that shows that he still is the Doctor in every way. The other thing that makes me raise an eyebrow at this ending is that Ten basically makes the decision for her (as he has a tendency to do) by skeedaddling out of there in the Tardis when she’s macking on Cloen. And I get why he wants this for her. Cloen can spend his whole life with Rose which is something the Doctor couldn’t do. And in a way, Rose is making her decision when she grabs Cloen and kisses him because Cloen is human enough to actually utter the words “I love you” when the Doctor kept failing at that. But I think I would have liked it better if it’d be a bit more decisive.
I do quite like how Ten describes Cloen just because I think it shows just how me he sees what Rose has done for him.
Doctor: We saved the universe, but at a cost and the cost is him. He destroyed the Daleks and committed genocide. He’s too dangerous to be left on his own.
Cloen: You made me.
Doctor: Exactly. You were born in battle, full of blood, anger and revenge. Remind you of someone? That’s me when we first met. And you made me better. Now you can do the same for me.
Rose: But he’s not you.
Doctor: He needs you, and that’s very me.
TEARS FOREVER.
Speaking of Cloen, David Tennant is really fabulous in his scenes with Catherine Tate on the Tardis. Cloen’s interactions with Donna are hilarious.
Cloen: I can see Donna- what you’re thinking. All that attitude, all that lip because all this time you think that you’re not worth it.
Donna: Stop it!
Cloen: Shouting at the world ‘cause no one’s listening. Well, why should they?
As for Donna’s ending, I know that quite a lot of people hate it, and I get that. I do. But I am kind of a sucker for things that are SAD and AWFUL. And once again the Doctor is making decisions for people, but he has to do it or else she’ll die. So I enjoy it in a “I love to wallow in tragedy” sense. But also, I think we know from “Turn Left” that this isn’t a hopeless ending. Donna didn’t need the DOCTOR specifically. She just needed anyone to believe in her. And I think that there is hope that Wilf (and even Sylvia who declares that Donna is still the most important woman in the whole universe because she’s her daughter) will be able to do that for her.
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And now the Doctor is all alone. At least he has Wilf who will be looking out for and thinking about him.
Tennant sadfaces always get me *cries*
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At first, I was really unsure of what to think about Rose’s ending. I mean, it’s pretty obvious that this was what RTD had planned for her for a long time, and seeing as Billie wasn’t coming back to the show, it really was RTD doing the best he could for his characters. That hand of Ten’s has been just chillin’ in the background since “The Christmas Invasion” and it wasn’t without purpose. Even the fact that Ten has two distinct suits that he wears was necessary so that in this episode it would be easier to distinguish between the two Doctors.
After reading the book that RTD wrote about the writing of the series (which is really fascinating btw) and seeing how many versions of the beach scene he wrote, I can see how much he struggled with giving Rose a proper ending. To be honest, I think that I would have been happier with it if we’d seen Rose interact with Cloen more before the beach scene. BUT we did still get plenty of screen time of Cloen with Donna that shows that he still is the Doctor in every way. The other thing that makes me raise an eyebrow at this ending is that Ten basically makes the decision for her (as he has a tendency to do) by skeedaddling out of there in the Tardis when she’s macking on Cloen. And I get why he wants this for her. Cloen can spend his whole life with Rose which is something the Doctor couldn’t do. And in a way, Rose is making her decision when she grabs Cloen and kisses him because Cloen is human enough to actually utter the words “I love you” when the Doctor kept failing at that. But I think I would have liked it better if it’d be a bit more decisive.
I do quite like how Ten describes Cloen just because I think it shows just how me he sees what Rose has done for him.
Doctor: We saved the universe, but at a cost and the cost is him. He destroyed the Daleks and committed genocide. He’s too dangerous to be left on his own.
Cloen: You made me.
Doctor: Exactly. You were born in battle, full of blood, anger and revenge. Remind you of someone? That’s me when we first met. And you made me better. Now you can do the same for me.
Rose: But he’s not you.
Doctor: He needs you, and that’s very me.
TEARS FOREVER.
Speaking of Cloen, David Tennant is really fabulous in his scenes with Catherine Tate on the Tardis. Cloen’s interactions with Donna are hilarious.
Cloen: I can see Donna- what you’re thinking. All that attitude, all that lip because all this time you think that you’re not worth it.
Donna: Stop it!
Cloen: Shouting at the world ‘cause no one’s listening. Well, why should they?
As for Donna’s ending, I know that quite a lot of people hate it, and I get that. I do. But I am kind of a sucker for things that are SAD and AWFUL. And once again the Doctor is making decisions for people, but he has to do it or else she’ll die. So I enjoy it in a “I love to wallow in tragedy” sense. But also, I think we know from “Turn Left” that this isn’t a hopeless ending. Donna didn’t need the DOCTOR specifically. She just needed anyone to believe in her. And I think that there is hope that Wilf (and even Sylvia who declares that Donna is still the most important woman in the whole universe because she’s her daughter) will be able to do that for her.
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And now the Doctor is all alone. At least he has Wilf who will be looking out for and thinking about him.
(reposting this last bit because apparently I failed last time. But uh, if the first one shows up again, I'll delete)
Just have to say, I went to upvote your comment, and my mouse is sticky and I downvoted by mistake. BUT I AM NOT AFRAID because the comment is awesome and I have every faith it will be upvoted many many times yet! But sorry. 🙁
Agreed on Jack and Rose needing a conversation. "Oh hai, did you know you made me immortal?" "Ooops, sorry, the whole Bad Wolf thing went to my head a bit. Wanna dance?"
Jack and Rose didn't need a conversation
because
their hearts will go on
Brilliant! Brilliant!
That second picture is killing me. Too many good memories. And too David Tennant's *drool*. (There can never really be enough David Tennants 😉 )
Although with all those interactions, I still feel like this episode is really missing a conversation between Jack and Rose. Rose was incredibly significant in his life (lol, I mean he even stalked her childhood), and she was the one that made him immortal, but yeah. That’s never talked about. I know that some dialogue like that was in some drafts of the script, but it never made it to air
Wow, in everything that was going on, I totally forgot about this. I mean, I see why with everything going on and not and ounce of room for anything more, this is what had to be excluded, but true…that seems like the very first question Jack would want to ask! I mean, maybe the first after the world was saved, but still.
"Hey, did you miss me, Rose? How about you spend eternity in a parallel universe with a human copy of myself? Holy god, that is so, so, so, so uncomfortable. RIGHT?"
OH THANK GOD I'M NOT ALONE IN THINKING THIS.
YANA
YES
I do agree. I kind of like it…but I kind of don't. And I don't like thinking too hard about it, so I will probably never resolve my feelings.
OMG, are you me? I still don't know how I feel about it!
Imagine that your romantic partner comes up to you one day and says, "Hey, I have to leave you for ever, but here's a clone I made! Have fun!!!"
IMO that comparison only works if the Doctor and Rose had been romantic partners in every sense, which I personally don't think they were. Plus, I believe it had been five years in Rose's timeline since they had seen each other. Being with the likeness (I don't think clone is the right word for Handy) of someone I was in love with five years ago, but had never actually been involved with (in fact, couldn't be involved with) is not the same as my significant other sending me a clone.
Yeah- Handy isn't really a likeness, is he? He's got all of the Doctor's memories, his mind, and a good lump of his personality- just with a great big lump of Donna's personality thrown in. And hey, you could definitely do worst than Donna if you're going to do a personality meld.
I was searching for a better word than clone (which to me means *exact* duplicate), but I still can't figure out the right word for it. I agree, I think he might be *better* than the Doctor for having some Donna characteristics!
Probably, hehe.
Mark's phrasing is perfect. It's uncomfortable. To even think too hard about.
The thing that sorta freaks me out about it is its well, a bit Whhee! Magic solution! It somewhats undermines Rose's tragedy from Season 2, and doesn't let her come to terms with the fact that she can be her own person, with or without the Doctor and TARDIS.
Not to mention it slightly bothers me. Handy and Rose get to live happily ever after, the Doctor and Donna get SADNESS FOREVER.
Handy and Rose get to live happily ever after
I don't personally think that's very likely. Probably more like "happily for a few years max before Handy forgets he can't regenerate and dies trying to defend the world from some alien threat"
Also having her kiss him in front of 10. I also wasn't really crazy about 10 deciding that Jackie would say goodbye to everyone she knows and live in a parallel universe with parallel universe Pete literally minutes after she'd met him. An experience like that would def weird me out.
I don't know, she had a while to learn how to be her own person and live on her own. I don't think having some kind of romance in her life cheapens that.
I'm uncomfortable thinking that Rose just DIDN'T CARE enough about 10 to worry about him going off with all the sadness, because at least she got exactly what she wanted. Bleh.
Rose with a giant gun saving the planet = awesome
Rose kissing Handy whilst 10 has to leave behind the woman he loves forever = desperately sad for 10
AAAHHH AGREED.
Watching this for the first time, I started crying for Rose (then sobbed for Donna).
How the bloody hell is she suppose to relax and find happiness with this copy whilst knowing that her REAL Doctor is still out there and is still missing and loving her and hurting for her? The guilt and worry would eat her alive.
Plus this Handy Copy would probably get hit by a bus the next day, and Rose will be on her own again… UUH not right.
you are most certainly NOT alone. This was creepy and given it was presented as a "happy ending" – it's even weirder. This was NOT a happy ending. It wasn't even an ending. it was a big WTF?
I did not think I had more tears left for season finales after Doomsday, but apparently I was wrong. Donna is about the most tragic character in all of Who-dom.
This episode is AMAZING. As long as you don't think about it too much afterwards 😛
I did lol at how similar rels and seconds are though, every time they started counting down.
As long as you don't think about it too much afterwards 😛
That could be said for a lot of Doctor Who. WHICH IS FINE BY ME!
Also, who knew I was spoiling myself with that GIF of the Doctor hanging out in the rain? AMAZING.
Every time you posted it, I was sad. You were not prepared for how sad it really was.
I KNOW! I ran over to the spoiler thread and was like "GUYSSSSSS :'( HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW!"
Like, all of us. There was even commentary on the spoiler board about it.
Yeah, I was like, `I REALLY hope he doesn't know the context!` and thank goodness you didn't!
AMAZINGLY…SAD 🙁 🙁 🙁
Though I am glad nobody explained that to you, THAT'S HOW GOOD WE ARE 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
THE STRINGS OF THE UNIVERSE WERE DRAWING YOU TO THAT POINT IN TIME, MARK. EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED TO DONNA.
Did Dalek Caan go back and post that gif somewhere for Mark to see it? Or maybe it was Rose?
And now you know where that gif came from.
TEARS FOREVER.
This episode is like an overload of awesome. I do love that Rose ends up getting her own Doctor, but that's gotta be a weird existential thing at the same time. I mean, how does that Doctor deal with things like having to live in the real world and not being able to pop off to wherever/whenever? A hard transition to make. And weird for Rose, too, on so many levels.
There's only one tiny little thing that bugs the crap out of me on this episode: When the Daleks send Jack's body to the incinerator, he comes out of it fully clothed. Is his awesome WWII coat immortal too? It's only a small detail, but I find it very distracting. And this opinion is in no way influenced by the fact that I would have liked to see John Barrowman get naked again. Obviously he wouldn't be able to find a change of clothes on a Dalek space station, and the episode is already so action-packed and serious that there wouldn't have been any room for nudity-related humour here, but still….
Went to the Seattle Comicon this weekend and saw two women in TARDIS costumes, and one dressed as Dalek Sec.
I didn't think he went to the incinerator. He has "woken up" already, but let them move him to the incinerator shaft or whatever, but then once they were gone climbed out and went climbing through pipes to find Mickey.
But I could be remembering really wrong.
That's right. Before Jack was taken to be incinerated, he winked at the Doctor. So, once Jack was put into the incinerator, he got out of it and was traveling through pipes and tunnels. When he jumps out of the one, he says he was tracking life signs with his wrist strap thing.
HUGS FOR EVERYONE
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You go Donna Coco. And none for Sarah Jane Wieners – BYE!
(Sorry, Mean Girls occasionally eats my brain.)
DONNA, YOU GO GET SOME OF THAT JACK LOVING!
Seriously, that is one of my favorite things ever.
MARK MARK MARK
How many times have I told you I love a full TARDIS?
This scene HHHHHNNNNNNGGGGGGG *EXCITE*
And the Donna/Jack running gag has to be the best thing ever.
OMG! When I was re-watching this last night I saw this scene and thought "I hope someone had a gif of this because it's AWESOME!" Thank you for posting it!
I hate that they cut off the Rose/Martha/Ten hug! It's the cutest thing I've ever seen!
OPINION OF UNKNOWN POPULARITY
donna noble should have died rather than have her mind be violated against her will.
i'll come back later to flesh out my feelings on this episode and finale in general but i just want to leave that there.
I agree. I hate that the doctor decided that he knew what was best for her, and went against her will. He should have respected her 'no'.
Yup. Same here. I fucking HATE what happens to Donna, cause she was my favorite companion. Ugh… it just makes me angry.
I really don't think Wilf and Sylvia would share your opinion.
ICAWTC.
Oh this was my thought too!! I think she'd have rather died than go back to the old life she was trying to escape in the first place. That and hindsight is a wonderful thing but I can't say it cos of spoilers but im sure you can guess what im refering to 🙂
I don't know…I just…I just really don't know. I like grey areas for morality in my entertainment but it's hard. I mentioned it in a comment but I do think Donna knew that it was necessary…whether she would have preferred to die or not I don't know..
Basically, that was a long way of saying "I'm unsure (as of yet) whether I agree with you or not"
…
Which is a really pointless response…
I agree. I'm not sure if I'd have preferred Donna to die or for her to be memory-less.
Now, one thing I would like to happen (and I'm not saying if it did, or if it was resolved another way, if at all- spoilers) would be for Donna to get her memory back, but at a price. Maybe she witnesses someone she loves die just before/after they return, or perhaps even sacrifices herself, but gets to die with all her knowledge. Because I'm a sucker for tragedy.
That would certainly have been way less creepy and gross.
Oh dear God no. The Doctor did what he needed to to save her life. And don't tell me that a Donna Noble who never met the Doctor is worse off than a dead Donna. See Turn Left for what a Doctor-less Donna can achieve.
It's not about Donna not being worthwhile without the Doctor. It's about Donna crying and begging the Doctor not to do it, knowing full well what would happen to her if he didn't, and him going ahead and mind raping her anyway.
She understood what was happening to her. She didn't want him to take her memories. If she had agreed, even reluctantly, even after he had to push her towards it, fine. I could live with that. But she made her choice and he went against it.
I didn't want Donna dead, but what the Doctor did was really awful. I'm not a fan of the 'take away someone's choices for their own good' trope. Vampire Diaries does it all the time and I end up wanted to hit people.
THIS. Yes. That's the point, yes. It's not about her losing the "I was awesome" memories, or not being able to live without the doctor. It's that losing part of yourself, like ways in which you have grown as a person, memories, etc, is a horrible thought. And if someone doesn't want you to take their memories… then don't.
It's horrible yes, but better than letting her die? What good are memories when you're dead?
Her protestations may have been raging against the unfairness of it all, or genuinely preferring to die rather than lose her memories. If it was the second case, she would have been wrong and not thinking clearly and the Doctor did the right thing saving her anyway, in my opinion. You don't just let someone jump off a bridge.
And I wouldn't call 'rape' erasing her memories to save her life. It's the same kind of intrusion as a medical operation would be.
This. If it were me, personally, I would rather die knowing I'd saved the universe than live out the rest of my life having lost all the experiences that made me that awesome in the first place. :/
Yeah, he could have respected her wishes.
You don't assist people in their suicides. Sorry.
DONNA! http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/
‘There are worlds out there safe in the sky because of her. And there are people living in the light and singing songs of Donna Noble, a thousand million light years away. They will never forget her.’
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Two things before discussing the episode because this is going to be a long one:
1.Music!
‘The Rueful Fate of Donna Noble’ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64kM-0tRjeA Oh Donna, we never wanted you to change either.
‘The Greatest Story Never Told’ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YONPpWj31s which was used across the second half of the series. I love how grand and dramatic it is. Definitely fits the title.
‘A Pressing Need to Save the World’ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDxS_1H48b0 Another brilliant dramatic piece which also has elements of Torchwood music in it as well as ‘All the Strange, Strange Creatures’ which makes it beyond impossible not to love.
2. ‘You are connected to the TARDIS now feel it die.’ Doctor/TARDIS OTP!
I know my reviews generally tend to be largely positive so I’m just going to say that this review is largely not positive. So just fair warning I guess.
You know I’m never not disappointed in this episode. We’ve just come off an amazing run of episodes and there was so much build leading into Journey’s End and it just fails to deliver for me.
There are some things I like. I mean you’ve gotta love unexpected naked Doctor. I also love the unexpected German Daleks. ‘EXTERMINIEREN!’ They’re a great touch. While it is so beyond cheesy I do enjoy everyone driving the TARDIS. I will forever love and adore Jack and Martha as BFFs. As I’ve said in the past Martha/Jack are my friendship OTP. I would watch a show/read a story that’s totally about them having kickass adventures in Torchwood/UNIT and then commiserating and gossiping on the phone about it all and their respective other halves. I love Jackie pulling Handy’s leg over naming the baby Doctor. Never change Jackie. Wilf and everything he does will forever and always be love.
All this time later and I’m still not entirely sure how I feel about the regeneration fake out. I know you need a dramatic cliff hanger for the series finale but I just don’t think I like it. I thought once you regenerate that’s it so I don’t understand the whole, oh I’ll just heal myself and get rid of the extra energy because I don’t feel like changing. Handy and Donna are great together though. I love the exchanges between them in the TARDIS. I also love when Donna goes all DoctorDonna. Not only is she brilliant but she realises that she’s brilliant and isn’t ashamed of it.
Hello Mickey and Jackie!
<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/10mr0q8.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"> As much as it’s great to see them again they do seem a bit pointless in this episode. Or is that just me? Aside from nostalgia they don’t really do anything outside of saving Sarah Jane from the cliffhanger and Mickey deciding to stay over here. Which I also don’t understand, there’s nothing for him here either given how long he’s been missing while he’s had a life for a long time in Pete’s world that he’s just leaving.
(continued)
Please don’t hate me but what the hell were they doing building a dimension cannon in the first place. Do we not already know and understand the consequences of travelling between universes. Isn’t it generally a bad idea that leads to the destruction of at least one universe, as seen by what was happening to Pete’s world back in Doomsday. The Doctor freaked every time they used one of those yellow disks because they tear holes in the universe but a cannon is all fun and giggles because you like the motive behind it? Yes it came in handy when the universes started to collapse but that doesn’t excuse the damage that could’ve potentially been done had they got it working and used it. I’m also not to keen on the fact that it kind of implies that Rose has spent all her time in Pete’s world just trying to get back to the Doctor. I thought, and assumed, she would have moved on given the Bad Wolf Bay scene in Doomsday where she talks about joining Torchwood and helping to protect the planet on her side. Building a dimension canon is the opposite to that.
‘The Doctor’s soul will be revealed.’
I would strongly contest with Davros belief that the companions have basically become terrible people. Yes, in this situation of course they’re going to be making horrible and tough decisions but that’s not all that travelling with the Doctor has given them. I mean just look at the three main companions. Rose realised that she could have more in life than what she’d believed, took it and enjoyed it. Martha realised that she’s worth more than anyone’s second best and rocks her great confidence and self esteem in a job and life she loves. Donna was made to feel important and worth something after countless put downs and feeling useless and realised her own greatness. And that’s not including the wonder, adventure and all the good and amazing things they’ve done while travelling with the Doctor. What they’re in at that moment is an extreme situation and of course they’re going to do what they can to save not just the world, not just the universe, but every universe in existence itself and they’re sacrificing themselves, and in some cases their loved ones as well, in the process. I mean it’s a fair point, especially with all the people who die helping the Doctor, but at that moment I can’t help but see the companions as more than sources of Doctor angst.
I’m not too sure about Roses end either. The Doctor basically drops Handy off with her because he doesn’t want to deal with him when Handy’s the consequence of his own actions. Not to mention Ten has no place getting all high and mighty about genocide. I know it can be seen that he’s leaving a version of himself there but, to me at least, Handy is not Ten. He’s half Donna too, and not just the human life span part. We’ve seen how parts of Donna’s personality are mirrored in Handy, add in at least a few years new experiences from Ten’s own travels and Handy is really not the same person Rose last saw in Doomsday. I also have to wonder why Handy doesn’t warrant a mind wipe given that he’s a metacrisis too.
(continued)
I know there are people here who are going to be far more eloquent about this than me but Donna, oh Donna.
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Donna was this wonderful character who grew and learnt her own self worth and it was all taken away from her. And she begs. She begs and pleads with the Doctor not to do it. Not to take all of that away from her. She can never remember the wonder and adventure. She can never remember all of the things she did. She can never remember all of the people she helped. She can never remember that regardless of what others say, she is important. And I hate that. I hate it so much.
‘And for one moment, one shining moment, she was the most important woman in the whole wide universe.’
Donna party?
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DONNA PARTY!
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Ahhh, I don't have enough gifs! Here, have some fanart instead!
http://nuriwan.deviantart.com/art/Oi-91538061
http://nuriwan.deviantart.com/art/At-the-Matsuri-…
<a href="http://rhamana.deviantart.com/art/The-Doctor-and-Donna-149593844” target=”_blank”>http://rhamana.deviantart.com/art/The-Doctor-and-Donna-149593844
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Crying Tom Hardy gif = EPIC WIN
"I thought, and assumed, she would have moved on given the Bad Wolf Bay scene in Doomsday where she talks about joining Torchwood and helping to protect the planet on her side."
So did I when we saw her in Turn Left and later when she was walking aroung with ther big fucking gun. Guess we were wrong. Now it looks like she only ever saved the universe to try to get back to the Doctor.
Man, I hate that development so much. When combined with the suggestion that she'd settle with a copy of the Doctor who isn't even fully him I am just filled with rage. Her character deserved better. :\
TEARS
TEARS FOREVER
I love you, Donna Noble ;~;
Lol lol lol!
(if you want to post it just type < img src= thenthelink > only take out the spaces between the brackets)
Ok thanks
(<img src=http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhmeq8ImO41qgcft3o1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1299619010&Signature=b9op/k7HPMUuseGebSaVDsozUyw%3D>)
PFFFFFFFT, that… oh man, that's just really… what is that from, or is that just a shop of their faces onto something else?
WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.
I HAVE NO IDEA BUT IT LOOKS LIKE PERHAPS RULE 34.
Somewhere Barrowman's head is exploding!
Its from Casanova which Tennant was in and RTD wrote, whoever made it photoshopped Billie and Freema into it.
It's from Casanova. The DT on the bed is real, the women and the Doctor were shopped in.
I hadn't noticed the TARDIS in the background on my first viewing. Awesome!
OKAY, I am finding and watching this.
Its pretty good and there are some actor's in it that were also cast in Doctor Who, RTD does like reusing the same actor's in a lot of his stuff.
How it should have happened:
<img src="http://th01.deviantart.net/fs37/PRE/i/2008/246/f/7/The_DoctorDonna___comic_by_polvoice.jpg">
(Source)
How it really happened:
<img src="http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6323/84212940.gif">
Me:
<img src="http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhks04db4v1qa19tk.gif">
<img src="http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgscemSjzw1qbq2y9.gif">
<img src="http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhlvucJhQI1qfgmsx.gif">
<img src="http://sungem.animeblogger.net/wp-content/images/Cardcaptor%20Sakura/sakura-ep02-03.gif">
<img src="http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lga7da8hzU1qdufy3.gif">
ROFL FOREVER AT THAT CARTOON
And OH GOD SAD GIFS 🙁
"You grew from my hand in a vat. You don't have any parents."
"SHUT UP, DAD. T_T"
The most hilarious thing is this totally sounds like what an angsty teenage Doctor would do.
"Theta, you were grown on a loom- you weren't born from you mother."
"SHUT IT, Dad. I'm gonna go steal a TARDIS and call myself 'the Doctor.'"
HAHAHA IT'S SO TRUE.
PERFECT.
<img src="http://i40.tinypic.com/2cza455.gif"/>
GIF FEST OF SADNESS.
Also known as, My Heart When Watching JE In Moving Form.
And you used Charlie!
CHARLIE MCDONNELL IS <3
<img src="http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhikvhqNP51qfgmsx.gif">
Charlie dancing like Justin Bieber will make everything better. 🙂
Charlie doing anything will make things better <3
Why can I only give this one upvote? That comic is glorious.
charlieissosadlike. LOL.
YES. That is how it happened for sure.
That cartoon is fabulous! And the Stephen Colbert gif is making me hungry for ice cream, which I don't have. SADDEST DAY EVER
TRUFAX in every possible way.
LONG REVIEW/COMMENT IS LONG. DON’T SAY I DIDN’T WARN YOU. I HAVE MANY FEELINGS ON THIS.
So the episode begins with the Doctor avoiding regeneration. Maybe a bit convenient, maybe a useless cliffhanger, but I was much too relieved to care. And I get why Rose was relieved too. She’d been through this process once already and that was hard enough. Imagine travelling across a universe only to go through it again. And they finally hug! Phew, I was waiting for that. From then on the Doctor and Rose are basically acting like goofball teenagers but I don’t care. Hell, they deserve to.
Then, MICKEY and JACKIE reappear! Massive reunion just got bigger. Though I noticed they have REALLY BIG GUNS in the other universe, don’t they?
(German Daleks are really funny to me, I don’t know why. XD EXTERMINIEREN!)
I knew something was going on with Donna from the start and it was making me really uneasy. So when the TARDIS locked her inside and the Daleks sent her to her death, I was genuinely terrified, given Caan’s prophesy in the last episode. But things started getting weird then. The glowing hand, the regeneration sparkles (I don’t know what they’re called, that’s purely just fun to say!) it all was obviously culminating into something big. Oh, I had no IDEA.
Meanwhile, the others are also facing mortal danger. Rose and the Doctor hold hands, just like old times. And Jack dies again. Same old, same old. 😀
Then we get back to Donna and a naked Clone of the Doctor appears. That stunned me admittedly. But we got a pretty hilarious reaction scene from Donna, so I was OK with it. I was still not prepared though.
Then we get to the obligatory explanation of his evil plans from Davros. A reality bomb, something that will turn all reality into atoms and all atoms into Daleks. It was ambitious certainly but it didn’t scare me half as much as everyone suddenly bent on exploding everything. Easy with the explosives, people. That can’t be the best solution, can it?
I assumed now that we have two Doctors, the solution would come from one or both of them but I was never so glad to be wrong! Hey, Donna, you’re a genius, now? I like! A two-way biological meta-crisis? The DoctorDonna? It is all making a strange sense. SKINNY BOYS IN SUITS+BEST TEMP IN CHISWICK= AWESOME.
It was all looking really good until CloneDoctor committed genocide. I knew immediately our Doctor would not approve. But he seemed to forget it pretty quickly what with towing the Earth on the back of the TARDIS (with no help from Jackie-oh Doctor!).
*continued*
And now for the GOODBYES. Oh, I had a really bad feeling when the Doctor mentioned Bad Wolf Bay. Surely not after all that time, he wouldn’t just leave Rose in the parallel world again? And then, I realised. The CloneDoctor! I think I groaned at that point. RTD, please don’t go there.
The Doctor: “You were born in battle, full of blood and anger and revenge. Remind you of someone? That's me when we first met, and you made me better. Now you can do the same for him.”
Rose: “But he's not you.”
Isn’t he? Is he? Dammit, Doctor (or RTD, I’m not even sure who I was more angry at!)After all Rose has been through trying to get back would she settle for someone that just looks like you? Because he can age? I think Rose deserves more credit than that. I think I would have preferred it if the metacrisis had resulted in just the altered Donna rather than the creation of the Clone. And maybe Rose to HAVE to go back to the other universe to save THAT world there because it obviously must have suffered. OR MAYBE TO EVEN DECIDE HERSELF THAT SHE WAS NEEDED THERE MORE THAN HERE. It would have been a BAMF moment for her. On another note: why couldn’t you just say the damn words? It’s the last time you see her! *bawls*
And I thought that was the worst of it, the Doctor leaving Rose again. But, nooo, RTD had to punch me in the guts even more. Oh, Donna Noble, you’re breaking my heart again. “No! Don’t make me go back!” Catherine Tate, you are awesome at making me cry. Everything, everything she knew, everything she saw with the Doctor, everything wonderful that she experienced…gone. I can’t think of a worse fate for a companion. All she ever wanted was to explore the world. And she did. And then she forgot. It’s just really, really cruel.
<img src="http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g396/donteventhinkthat/gif%20party/24d583d.gif" border="0" alt="jack crying Pictures, Images and Photos"/>
Why Donna? WHYYYY? I’m still not over it. It’s just so tragic and horrible and (if I’m being honest) unnecessary. Of all the people that have travelled with the Doctor, Donna is the one that deserves to remember it the most.
SO MANY TEARS ;_;
Oh my god, in what world is having two David Tennants not the most amazing thing ever? .. In a world where this is occurring in an alternate reality that I am not part of.
The German Daleks made me LAUGH at a time when nothing else was making me laugh (oh god, this episode makes me CRY so many times). EXTERMINIREN!
I want to know why the Half-Human Doctor's brain doesn't explode too.
I would imagine since he's mostly Timelord, he came from the Doctor's hand and needed his excess regeneration energy to exist.
Because of drugs. The residual drugs on Rose's lips keep his brain so baked that it doesn't have enough time to explode.
You know how I said I didn't cry at the end of Doomsday? I happy-cried at this episode instead, when "the Doctor" and Rose FINALLY KISSED. WTF is wrong with me, who cries at kissing??
At the end of the last ep I panicked thinking I had missed the news that David Tennant was leaving. I actually sought out spoilers (how shameful!) to reassure myself. Luckily we get 2 David Tennants instead of 0.
OH HEY OOD THANKS FOR SPOILING US WITH ALL THAT DOCTORDONNA COMBO TALK
As much as I love Rose, I would have been happy with Donna being the companion for the rest of the show. Poor Donna.
I love the reveal about what the Ood's Doctor-Donna talk was actually all about. AND WE ALL THOUGHT IT WAS JUST ADORABLE "AWW THE OOD CAN'T TELL THEM APART/GET HUMAN NAMES MIXED UP/ETC ETC, AREN'T THEY CUTE". How wrong we were.
Yes, that was fantastic!
Oh, the bigger irony is the Anti-Spoiler Goddess River giving Donna that, "OH GOD" look. Donna KNOWS something's up after that.
I love Donna Noble. I've loved all of the companions, but Donna is my favorite. I never really understood why until you pointed it out, because on the surface, we don't have much in common. Unlike Donna, I've been pretty successful in life so far, at least in terms of academics and career-building. Really, as a molecular biology major planning on going into cancer or HIV research, I should really relate more to Martha, the doctor who was totally in love with the Doctor. But in every way that counts, I am Donna. I have huge self-esteem issues. I want to go out and save the world. I've been to Egypt (well, Scotland for study abroad, but whatever), and it's all been don't drink the water and you're home in a few months, just as she said. I want to go out and explore the galaxy, to chase down the Doctor and adventure like she did. I want to find myself as she did more clearly than any other companion. She left her mark on the universe and didn't take anyone's crap, even the Doctor. I salute you Donna Noble, explorer of the universe. You were fantastic.
The stuff you said here about self-doubt really resonates with me, Mark. It's something I've been struggling with for a long time now, and I think that, in our culture, women especially can fall victim to it. We're fed subtle messages that lead us to defer to others (especially men), we erase our own needs, or consider them less important than the needs of others, and we second-guess ourselves, which can end up being a huge source of anxiety. For me, the place it affects me most is at work. There are a lot of jobs I just haven't applied for because I don't feel qualified, or I just assume that others are more qualified than me, so it's a waste of my time. I actually did end up recently applying for one such job, and I ended up getting it. And let me tell you, a trained monkey could do this. Hell, a stuffed monkey could do it. So I guess I learned something.
"Kasper has informed me that the name of Bad Wolf Bay is some of the poorest usage of Norwegian he has ever seen. Instead, it’s translation is more like, “Beach of the Wolf Who Is Rather Shite At Being A Wolf.”
"
and yes, this is so true. I was watching Doomsday, and I just could. not. stop laughing at the ridiculous language failure. Way to ruin a dramatic moment, translators!
I believe that the bomb that Jack sat on at the end of The Doctor Dances translated as "rather rubbish wolf".
“Beach of the Wolf Who Is Rather Shite At Being A Wolf.”
That is so ridiculous and is cracking me up.
As much as I love Donna's send off (even though it's incredibly sad), the writers did a terrible job of wrapping up Rose's arc. Spending her life with a human clone of the Doctor, really? One of the worst plot twists in New Who.
I felt it was very much a potshot at the rabid shippers. Like they were saying "okay, now Rose gets to live with the Doctor forever, this is what you wanted, DEAL WITH IT." I didn't much like Rose and I especially didn't like Doctor/Rose, so… I'm okay with it. Like, maybe now Rose will stop ripping the universe apart trying to get back to the Doctor.
so did we convincingly fake you out on Friday with letting you believe the Doctor regenerated into Matt Smith in this episode?
I'm shocked that you didn't mention the Doctor calling out Sylvia for always treating Donna like crap.
Unrelated: Suddenly I can log in on my phone! Yay!
Heehee, that was great. Everyone did a really good job of not letting on about the regeneration fakeout!
You can post from your phone?!? *runs to check*
I checked and I still can't (I CAN at MarkReads though). Does your comment box have an intense debate button? Because I still only get the anonymous comment box on my phone 🙁
NOTHING HAPPENED TO DONNA. SHE'S JUST HIDING. SHE TOOK A RIGHT TURN IN THE TARDIS AND GOT LOST. SILLY DONNA, ALWAYS FORGETTING TO TURN LEFT. SHE'S JUST HANGING OUT IN THE DISCO ROOM WITH ROSS JENKINS AND ROSE'S DRUG STASH.
THIS IS ALL REAL, OKAY?!
Real.
Real.
Definitely.
I am intrigued by your theories and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Oh my god she is absolutely chilling with Ross. ONE DAY THEY'RE JUST GONNA COME OUT AND BE LIKE "lol you thought we were dead/memory erased? No. We've just been partying in the Disco Room. We had to come out now though because we finished off Rose's stash."
+1 for truth forever.
THIS THIS THIS!
THIS IS MY NEW HEAD CANON.
Ah Journey's End a piece of convoluted crap you can't help but like anyway. I mean towing the Earth back home, seriously? Yet you can't help but cheer as it happens.
Love the part where Davros calls the Doctor out. He may be a psycho about to destroy everything but just for those short few moments Davros has the moral high ground over the Doctor.
What I hate about this episode is that the (real) Doctor is utterly powerless and doesn't do anything. He's just stuck in a forcefield for the whole episode and that's supposed to be the hero? Bit arrogant to banish your other self for actually ending the matter when you couldn't do a damn thing yourself.
Another thing that annoys me to no end is Sarah line about Luke only being 14. For god's sake Russel you wrote his birth I mean "activation" yourself. You should know better than anyone he's about 1 in this story and it's not like there's any real need to mention his age to begin with. She could have said he's still young or growing.
I think for a lot of people (and please correct me if I’m overstepping myself here) it becomes increasingly complicated to discuss self-esteem because other people, especially those who haven’t experienced bouts of really awful self doubt, are quick to immediately erase the sensation. They want to tell you that what you’re feeling is wrong, that you are not the best judge of your character or situation, and that everything will be ok. Funny thing about it is that it’s generally done with the greatest intentions, as a way to cheer a person up.
As someone who has struggled with an eating disorder for years, PREACH. It's so bittersweet, because people will always say, 'but you've got a great body! But you're beautiful!', and you know they want to help you but it feels almost like a backhanded insult, because it's like you don't IDENTIFY as those things. So everything they say just reminds you of what you're not, of how wrong you are – like someone saying, I don't know, 'I'm so glad you're straight' when I'm actually bisexual, for example. What you really want to say is, 'Stop LOOKING at me! Stop noticing!' You want to see yourself through their eyes, you want to prove that you're worth something when you're not really sure you are.
Oh my god, in what world is having two David Tennants not the most amazing thing ever?
I spent a lot of this episode just shouting, 'MAKE OUT!'
xkcd is always appropriate:
<img src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/parallel_universe.jpg">
I loved this episode on the first viewing. The sheer exuberance and happy fan-girlness drove me to think this was the best thing ever.
Watching again in the cold light of day, and really seeing it flaws and I've done a 180. Its one tacky deus ex machina after another and yeah, bad fanfiction of the calibre previously only sported by Stephanie Meyer.
Ok thats unfair, SM is waaaay worse.
But meh, it doesn't really matter. The 4 specials are all good fun and then its series 5…Whee!
This episode… this episode…
WAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
My God you’re going to need the next couple of episodes. I know I did.
I'm not sure I'm following the Doctor's logic about stranding Rose and TenTwo in the parallel universe. Let's accept that TenTwo did something the Doctor finds horrible by blowing up the Daleks, even though it seems like the sort of thing the Doctor himself would have done. I get wanting Rose to rehabilitate TenTwo like she rehabilitated Nine. That part makes sense. But why does the Doctor want her to do it on Planet Zeppelin? This way, if it does work and TenTwo learns to play nice, they're still stuck there until the next time someone almost destroys the multiverse, and if it doesn't work and TenTwo goes evil like the Doctor fears he might, the Doctor can't get back there to fight him. He's leaving Planet Zeppelin at the mercy of a person the Doctor himself considers dangerously unstable.
The only explanation that makes sense to me is that the Doctor stranded them to force Rose to stay with TenTwo because he didn't think she would be willing to do it unless he removed all hope that she might get back to him. Which doesn't reflect very well on the Doctor at all.
Agreed with your second bit. My theory is that everything the TimeLord Doctor said about the Human Doctor was complete and utter rubbish, and he said it only to make sure Rose stayed in the parallel universe with him. Kind of a play on the classic "hurt the other person so they run away which is really better for them anyway". Which is still rubbish. Honestly, several re-watchings of this episode have convinced me that the TimeLord Doctor, being rubbish at relationships, wouldn't have deserved Rose in the end, anyway. Good for him for leaving her with somebody who had the guts not to hide his feelings for her.
Exactly how I feel about it.
I even go so far as to think it was an unspoken plan between the two of them. Good cop bad cop sort of thing. They have basically the same brain, they would of course come to the same conclusion. "I'll say horrible things and guilt her while once again being a douche and taking the decision out of her hands, you finally say you love her and give her a CHOICE"
Absolutely! …Actually…. isn't the Doctor supposed to be telepathic, or something? So if there's two of him it's practically inevitable that they're telepathic.
Original Recipe Ten is still kind of a douche for it.
Took me wayyy too long to understand why you named it planet Zeppelin. i has smarts. promise.
I have so many ~*thoughts*~ about this episode, so this is going to be a longish comment by my standards, so.
First off, Donna Noble is my favorite companion ever, and watching her and 10.5 (or whatever you personally want to call the half human/half Doctor thing) be each other was amazing and hilarious and I literally punched the air the first time I saw it. Then I promptly started crying as all the companions flew the TARDIS together. I'm not a fan of Davies' at ALL but I will always be grateful to him for that moment. It was beautiful and touching and I wept like a small child.
(cont'd)
Next, I've been rather hard on Rose over the years, but as I said when she reappeared in Turn Left, I genuinely like the girl we met there, and who continues on to this finale. Seeing her interact with the other companions (even saying something appreciative of Martha when she calls into the Crucible!) and being the perfect combiantion of humble and willing to give others credit without ever letting go of her own power and security in herself. It was the perfect balance and I appreciated it so much, and thus am able to bid Rose goodbye here with happiness not at her being gone like I was in S2, but at her being a stronger, better person as a result of the life she's led since she met the Doctor.
(cont'd)
That said, Rose/10.5 is SO CREEPY to me, but really, it's just Davies playing his old tricks again. "Sorry your wife died, alt!Pete. Sorry your husband died, Jackie. Here, have this person who shares your dead spouse's face but is nothing like them at all. OH AND HAVE A KID TOGETHER!" or "Sorry your friend died, alt!rebel gang. Have Mickey! He's no Ricky but whatever, they look the same!" and "Mickey, sorry your gran died, but have this other gran who looks like her!" It's pretty much the same thing RTD's been doing for years, it's just more noticeable and bothersome here with Rose and 10.5 I've made my peace with it.
(cont'd)
But the one thing I can never forgive RTD for is what he did to Donna. Aside from the way I feel about her, and how painful it is to me to watch her be stripped of all the wonderful things she did, it's plain old bad writing. Writing an arc is about character growth, which he did, admirably! I have no qualms with that. It's the moment he takes it all back that I go, "…wait. What? Do you even know how many rules of screenwriting you just broke? It doesn't make you edgy or deep or whatever the hell you think, it makes you an asshole and a bad writer to boot." Just…ugh. I can never forgive what he did to Donna. Ever.
(cont'd)
Finally, way, way back on the "Girl in the Fireplace" episode, someone (I honestly forget who) commented that when Reinette sees into Ten's mind (and says something about "a door once opened can be stepped through in either direction"), she was committing mind-rape, as he hadn't given her permission. This is what I wanted to say to that commenter at the time, but couldn't because of spoilers: if what Reinette did, which Ten seemed to find amusing and clever of her, and wasn't really bothered by all that much, was "mind rape" then we need a whole new word for what Ten himself did to Donna. Because probing her mind and erasing all the memories of what she did while she literally screams, "No, don't, please, no," is way more mind-rapey than what Reinette did. WAY, WAY, WAY more so. (I'm not getting into the debate of whether what Reinette did was wrong or not, I'm simply saying: Ten himself did much, much worse.)
All that said, I'm sooooo happy you're finally watching Genesis of the Daleks. MY FACE IS LIKE THIS RIGHT NOW: :-D!
The thing is, I'm not sure I find what the Doctor does to Donna to be… all that horrible? I see it as more akin to someone who's had their leg infected with something that will kill them, and the only solution is amputation, but the injured person is screaming, "No, don't do it, I don't want to live with one leg!" or something. If you were able to save that person's life at the expense of their leg, would you not go against their stated wishes to do that? (I mean, if you had the knowledge and skill to do it.)
I mean, in the cold light of day (as it were), Donna knew what was happening to her, that she couldn't stay as she was; she also, at the moment she had to go, naturally reacted against it, because, well, no, you're not going to want to lose those things. But, I think it was a reaction in the moment, and she faltered, because she didn't want to do what she knew had to be done. I don't think it makes the Doctor's actions particularly objectionable.
If this were the only time Ten did something like this, I'd probably agree with you. But given his history of making decisions for people ("here, have this copy of me, Rose," what he did to Harriet Jones, or…actually pretty much at least once an episode he did something where he made a decision without consulting someone else), it's far more problematic than that to me. As a singular event, it might not be so bad, but in context of everything he's done…that's when it becomes a much larger issue.
I agree with this, and that type of thing (mind wiping) usually bothers me a great deal. He was doing it to save her life.
I must agree. I mean, it does bother me that he mindwiped her against her will, but…I'm selfish. I couldn't stand to see Donna die, and I'm pretty sure the Doctor couldn't either. It's completely against his nature to stand about and and let people die when it's in his power to save them.
Plus, what would he have said to Wilf and Sylvia when he brought them Donna's body? "There was this biological meta-crisis and she absorbed my mind and saved the multiverse but then all the knowledge started burning out her brain. I could have taken it away from her and saved her life, but she didn't want me to, so I let her die." I think not.
But the thing is, what if she really would rather die? Shouldn't that be her choice to make? For me, the idea of losing those kinds of memories, that kind of achievement and growth, is just viscerally horrifying. Given the choice, I would choose death rather than to lose all that, and I would be furious if someone decided to mess with my mind without giving me a choice – even if it was for my own good.
Well, we all have the right to refuse medical treatment… although arguably the degrading DoctorDonna may not have been competent to make that decision. I also agree with Hypatia below: had he followed Donna's wishes, however would he have explained things to Wilf and Sylvia?
ignoring the … strange video, now would be the perfect time to show you this 🙂
none of their songs have spoilers anymore (well not the 1st album stuff) but beware of comments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPoicPQukLA&fe…
enjoy 🙂
I don't like a lot of this episode, so what I will say is this. Martha's hair looks awesome like that, and her dressed in all black and looking like a BAMF is fantastic. I love seeing Mickey and Jackie again. I love the German-speaking Daleks. And that initial scene with Donna and Handy is pretty hilarious.
Lots of negativity in my self-reply below; truly, skip it if you don't want to read it.
(dfsdlkfsdlk;f Gah. I don't know why my comment keeps disappearing. This is driving me nuts. So um, I'm going to post it as a new comment instead of as a reply to my new one and I hope it sticks)
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At first, I was really unsure of what to think about Rose’s ending. I mean, it’s pretty obvious that this was what RTD had planned for her for a long time, and seeing as Billie wasn’t coming back to the show, it really was RTD doing the best he could for his characters. That hand of Ten’s has been just chillin’ in the background since “The Christmas Invasion” and it wasn’t without purpose. Even the fact that Ten has two distinct suits that he wears was necessary so that in this episode it would be easier to distinguish between the two Doctors.
After reading the book that RTD wrote about the writing of the series (which is really fascinating btw) and seeing how many versions of the beach scene he wrote, I can see how much he struggled with giving Rose a proper ending. To be honest, I think that I would have been happier with it if we’d seen Rose interact with Cloen more before the beach scene. BUT we did still get plenty of screen time of Cloen with Donna that shows that he still is the Doctor in every way. The other thing that makes me raise an eyebrow at this ending is that Ten basically makes the decision for her (as he has a tendency to do) by skeedaddling out of there in the Tardis when she’s macking on Cloen. And I get why he wants this for her. Cloen can spend his whole life with Rose which is something the Doctor couldn’t do. And in a way, Rose is making her decision when she grabs Cloen and kisses him because Cloen is human enough to actually utter the words “I love you” when the Doctor kept failing at that. But I think I would have liked it better if it’d be a bit more decisive.
I do quite like how Ten describes Cloen just because I think it shows just how me he sees what Rose has done for him.
Doctor: We saved the universe, but at a cost and the cost is him. He destroyed the Daleks and committed genocide. He’s too dangerous to be left on his own.
Cloen: You made me.
Doctor: Exactly. You were born in battle, full of blood, anger and revenge. Remind you of someone? That’s me when we first met. And you made me better. Now you can do the same for me.
Rose: But he’s not you.
Doctor: He needs you, and that’s very me.
TEARS FOREVER.
Speaking of Cloen, David Tennant is really fabulous in his scenes with Catherine Tate on the Tardis. Cloen’s interactions with Donna are hilarious.
Cloen: I can see Donna- what you’re thinking. All that attitude, all that lip because all this time you think that you’re not worth it.
Donna: Stop it!
Cloen: Shouting at the world ‘cause no one’s listening. Well, why should they?
As for Donna’s ending, I know that quite a lot of people hate it, and I get that. I do. But I am kind of a sucker for things that are SAD and AWFUL. And once again the Doctor is making decisions for people, but he has to do it or else she’ll die. So I enjoy it in a “I love to wallow in tragedy” sense. But also, I think we know from “Turn Left” that this isn’t a hopeless ending. Donna didn’t need the DOCTOR specifically. She just needed anyone to believe in her. And I think that there is hope that Wilf (and even Sylvia who declares that Donna is still the most important woman in the whole universe because she’s her daughter) will be able to do that for her.
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And now the Doctor is all alone. At least he has Wilf who will be looking out for and thinking about him.
THAT KISS. SO FACE-SQUISHY. And there was such an awesome, passionate, extended one in Confidential! WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE THE SQUISHY ONE?
ahem.
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necessary gif is necessary
A+++
IT IS HYPNOTIC.
Piper really seems to be enjoying herself there!
They both totally are. I personally enjoy his clinging. XD
Who wouldn't? XD
Totally. Where's mine?
100% necessary
I love how it's a full body hug as well–so cute! *i die*
Billie Piper on whether Matt Smith (who was on Secret Diary of a Call Girl) or David Tennant kisses better.
YES 100% YES. This is what I thought of the awful disappointing kiss, and I was very much appreciative of the passionate one in the Confidential. It is my head canon now.
I don't know why my comment keeps disappearing.
Don't you?
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I'm sorry. I had to do it.
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Gifspam first, then LIST O' THOUGHTS.
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– I have no idea why Jack wouldn't want to hug Donna, and it annoys the crap out of me that the guy who hits on anything and everything doesn't have the time of day for her. It makes no sense and is irritating.
– I can't help it, I love seeing Jackie and Mickey again. Even if they don't end up doing much and it feels almost pointlessly fanservicey, sometimes I dig that kind of fanservice. This is one of those times, because I like those two so much. (And hey, nothing wrong with Noel Clarke just standing around looking hot. /shallow)
– GERMAN DALEKS will forever amuse me.
– OH BITE ME, TEN. What did you think was gonna happen – you were going to talk Davros into reforming and you two would skip through a field of flowers holding hands? Give me a break. This is even stupider than when you thought that locking the Master in the TARDIS would work for more than three minutes.
– I love "Song of Freedom", and I enjoy seeing the TARDIS get a full crew, and I love the Unquiet Dead callback, but I hate seeing Jackie again get treated like crap by Ten.
– YEAH, MAYBE YOU SHOULD, SYLVIA. Urgh. Hate. Her.
– NO WILF STOP IT STOP IT YOU CAN'T CRY OH GOD. Seeing him tear up just makes it hurt so much more than it already did, and that is quite a feat.
– From a writerly standpoint, I think it was a terrible decision to do this to Donna. It seems like such a waste of time and effort into her development to erase it all and turn her back into what she was pre-Runaway Bride. I would say that I literally don't understand why someone would want to take a character they'd beautifully developed and then undo all that development, but I'm just cynical and bitter enough that I do understand: to create "drama" and "tragedy" purely for the sake of drama and tragedy. I don't deny that some of both are needed at times in fiction, but this isn't something that drives a story or character forward, it drives Donna BACKWARDS just for the sake of adding angst to another character's story. Heck, given that it seems to be for Ten's angst, it's kinda like she got fridged, only without physical death. So after my tears dried over her fate, the anger set in, because this does not sit right with me at all. Ten says it himself: that Donna, the one we knew and loved, is dead. In a way, I get the thought process that I believe led RTD to do this to Donna, but at the same time, as a writer myself, it's a completely alien thought process because it's anathema (and no, not Anathema Device, she is too cool for this conversation) to my own way of thinking and approach to characters and character growth. Memory loss can be an interesting trope, but it's where you START, not where you end. It's a giant waste of time and effort spent developing a character if you just erase it and regress them with no hope of regaining what they've lost. It's a cheap cop-out.
But that's just my opinion. Undoubtedly some of it is colored by my love for Donna, but not all of it. I think this is a shitty thing to do to ANY character, and just plain bad writing. I know at least one person will bring up the fact that Donna said earlier in the series that she was going to stay with him forever, jinxed herself, RTD needed a way to separate her from the Doctor without contradicting that, etc. Well, you know what? Donna isn't writing this stuff herself. He had her say that line to Martha about staying with the Doctor forever. He didn't have to write her that way, and quite frankly I cringed when I heard it, because it seemed to me to be the most anvilicious foreshadowing this side of She Who Must Not Be Named. There are a lot of other directions he could have gone in; he didn't have to take this path and destroy Donna. He made a deliberate choice, and I think he made a very bad one. I know I'll probably get downvoted to hell for saying this, and I'm asking anyone who would do that to please stop being that petty, to me and everyone else. None of us are evil people, we're all entitled to our own opinions, and believe it or not, it's possible to otherwise like someone's work and still acknowledge when they mess up, because even the best authors do from time to time. I wouldn't call myself a fan of RTD's, necessarily, but as you've seen from my previous reviews, I've enjoyed a lot of his episodes, like Midnight and Partners in Crime and Turn Left. And I think he screwed up here, big time. There are favorite authors of mine who've written things I don't like, so yeah. Let's be mature and agree to disagree.
– In the end, I feel that bringing Rose back and giving her this ending cheapens the impact of Doomsday pretty significantly. I'm pretty much all ranted out after my thoughts on Donna's ending, though, so I'll let someone else take over on the subject.
This is a good comment and you should feel good!
Posting Dumbledore and Hurley crying gifs in the same post? Were you trying to make me cry?
I will always love your calling out of Ten's shittery.
THIS. ALL OF THIS. UPVOTING FOREVER. I still think what happened to Donna was a betrayal of the character, the fans, and the spirit of the show as a whole. I can't rewatch this season because I'm still so mad and upset about how I know it ends.
I think Jack maybe didn't want to hug Donna because he's not used to getting hit on! Jack's confused he's thinking surely i should be the one after her.
Oh, and just on the whole Donna-memory erase thing, I agree from a writing stand point that it just sort of felt unwarranted as part of the story, but if you think about the implications this has on the children who watch the show, (I sometimes have to remind myself that it is, primarily, for a young audience) Donna had to go on a great big adventures with an impossible man in order to learn of her self-worth. Unfortunately, not every child has that luxury.
I think I totally understand what Davies is trying to get at: You can be the most important person in the universe, but you don't have to wait for the universe to be ending to figure that out. And you your family should support you, not put you down.
I unapologetically applauded when the Doctor called out Sylvia because Sylvia's been a horrid bitch to Donna. As much as Donna learned from the Doctor, she shouldn't have needed him. What she needed was her mother.
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/20jquli.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"> to everything you said.
Also, that Locke gif just breaks my heart.
YOUR RANT IS WONDERFUL. All the upvotes.
Emotional fridging really is what it feels like, and I just can't get over that.
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ITA with everything you've said!
"- OH BITE ME, TEN. What did you think was gonna happen – you were going to talk Davros into reforming and you two would skip through a field of flowers holding hands? Give me a break. This is even stupider than when you thought that locking the Master in the TARDIS would work for more than three minutes."
Especially THIS! Seriously, what happened to that "No second chances" stuff Ten?
GIF #2 is seriously perfect.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
The Donna ending. its not fair! Its just not fair.
I thought Rose would be my favorite companion forever, because I was introduced to Doctor Who as she was introduced to the Doctor. But I think Donna Noble has won my heart. Her struggles with self-worth are so relatable. She's an extraordinary lady, and she's a regular lady. And that is FANTASTIC!
The ending of all this was heartbreaking. What can be more tragic…to get to experience something so wildly wonderful as traveling across space and time with your best friend the Doctor, to have such an utterly priceless impact on the world, on humanity, on everything, and then to not be able to remember it. I don't blame the Doctor, he was saving her life. But she learned so much about herself, gained so much confidence, and now she loses that too! I hope Wilf (oh my god, I love Wilf) has learned to value her even more than he certainly already did, and encourages a second journey of self exploration, self discovery, and self love for Donna.
I feel like after having all our characters come back to us in this series finale, we're not going to see them again. I know that the Doctor managed to avoid changing in his pseudo regeneration, and I haven't seen the specials or the next season yet, so I don't know, but I know we get a new Doctor soon. My expectation is that we'll be building a whole new slew of characters with him. Which will be fun, but I'll miss all my biffles from Series 1 through 4!
My favourite lines:
"I was going to be with you, forever. The rest of my life, travelling, in the Tardis. The Doctor Donna.
Oh, oh my god, I can't go back, don't make me go back! Doctor, please, please don't make me go back! No, no, no please, please, no, no, no!"
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"But she was better with you."
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"No, listen listen this is important. Susie Mare wouldn't lie, not unless it was about calories!"
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But still, DONNAAAAAA :'((((( Very interested to see what Mark will make of the specials, particularly looking forward to FRIDAY myself though…
Those are exactly my feelings. There was really no OTHER way to do it, from a writing standpoint, besides kill her or trap her in another universe which obviously had already been done. Can you imagine if RTD had her leave voluntarily? That would have been HORRIBLE.
Yeah, i could never imagine Donna choosing to leave the Doctor. I know people will argue that her character development is gone, i don't care i refuse to believe that Donna Noble will be anything but amazing.
People that make that argument confuse the hell out of me. Did they not see Turn Left?
Exactly, this! Even without the Doctor, Donna will become her awesome self. It will just be a different path.
YES YES YES I agree so much with all of you! She always had the potential to be awesome. Don't take away Donna's awesomeness and say she could only be awesome while traveling with the Doctor.
So true! Donna can definitely be awesome, with or without the Doctor.
The thing that makes me sad (not in a critical way) is that she has lost something. Not her potential, but all those good memories, both of the universe and a close friend. That's something to mourn, even if she can be brilliant all by herself.
There's TONS to mourn (I am still mourning), so I don't blame people for being sad and not liking that. It's just when people start saying Donna lost all of her potential that I get butthurt.
Oh, yes, there's tons to mourn. I am very sad by it. But I also like it.
The one thing that annoys me about this episode is the part where Davros goes all preachy and 'ooh Doctor look at you turning people into weapons! Feel ASHAMED!!'
I was like: WTF? Davros, you created the DALEKS and specifically designed them to kill and enslave the rest of creation! Where do you get off claiming the moral high ground over anyone, you omnicidal maniac?
Seriously, if I was the Doctor, I would have burst out laughing.
ME TOO!
I don't think he's saying it because he thinks it's wrong, but because he's trying to upset the Doctor, to get to him. And we know the Doctor worries about how he affects people and whether he's good for them, so this was a good strategy
Oh I know. What gets me though, is that no one calls Davros out on the crap he's spewing.
I just want someone to send me the brain bleach so I can unsee the body horror that is Davros' torso. ;_;
Think happy thoughts! Concentrate on David Tennant's torso!
"Turn Left" is my favorite episode, but whenever I pop it in to watch, I can't help but watch the two-part finale as well. I'm one of those people who doesn't really nitpick shows. I either love it or hate it, and I love everything about the series 4 finale. I don't have the words to express just how much I love Donna Noble, and the ending is so, so heartbreaking, but I honestly can't think of a more perfect ending. Donna would not have left on her own, and the Doctor could not let go of his best friend so he made the only choice he could… to save her life.
I always cry over "Journey's End," but it's cathartic. Oh Donna, we'll always have Pompeii.
[insert sad.gif that is, sadly, on my other computer!]
One of my favorite episodes on Friday before finals and the epicness of End of Time the day I finally go home for good! Massive approval!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPoicPQukLA
Go watch it, you can do that now.
Hello Freema Ageyman, looking at the camera and raising your eyebrows!! Way to break the fourth wall!
This episode! When I first watched it, I was all "HNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGH SO AWESOME" but then I was all "Really? Jackie? Was she necessary? Doesn't she have an infant?"
Rose and 10.2 going off together seemed really… weird. Just really… really? OK.
BUT DONNA. God. I can't even express how utterly devastated I was when the Doctor says good-bye to her and she's all "huh? oh yeah, whatever, bye." Fuck. She spent an entire year tracking him down, searching for him, longing to be someone bigger, better and then she had it all…
And then it was gone.
SO SAD, WTF DAVIES WHY YOU MAKE ME CRY SO MUCH?
I also remember really looking forward to the year of specials and then retrospectively looking back on it and going. "meh."
Also, David Tennant was at Comic-Con in 2009, so even though you didn't see him you inhabited the same building as he did! Yaaaay crazy fandom!
Here's the thing. Yes, it's sad for Donna that she'll never be able to remember the wonderful amazing things she did, the sense of self-worth she gained. It is. But when people – especially, oh, MOST OF THE ONLINE FANDOM – make it out to be the biggest tragedy in the world, I wonder if they realise how ableist that is.
People, MANY people, have this idea that because she can't remember being amazing she no longer IS amazing, and that's just wrong. Even on the quotidian level, that is WRONG. I do not stop having experienced things just because I can't remember them. I have been changed and influenced and even improved by things the recollection of which I have no hope of recovering, and this is true for many if not most people with amnesia or other memory loss. Donna Noble is amazing, and losing her memories is not the worst that could happen to her, by far, because she has still been affected by her experiences.
Mark, I'm not aiming this at you at all; it just sort of spilled out when I remembered the fandom reaction to her life.
But the problem I have with that is, as someone quoted above, Donna's exact words:
"I was going to be with you, forever. The rest of my life, travelling, in the Tardis. The Doctor Donna.
Oh, oh my god, I can't go back, don't make me go back! Doctor, please, please don't make me go back! No, no, no please, please, no, no, no!"
Donna is LITERALLY BEGGING him not to – she knows the consequences, so we're led to believe that she would rather die – and he takes that decision out of her own hands when she is CLEARLY CAPABLE of making it. I understand why – I don't know if I could let my best friend die either, if there were something I could do about it. But in terms of consent, ugh. Donna is literally saying NO NO NO as clearly as she can.
I agree with you that Donna is no less awesome to any of us because her memories are removed, and her actions and character are not canceled out. But, to me at least, the tragedy is because SHE clearly expressed how important her memories were to her; because it's clearly crucial to HER that she retains the AWARENESS of her character development
People, MANY people, have this idea that because she can't remember being amazing she no longer IS amazing, and that's just wrong. Even on the quotidian level, that is WRONG
I agree so much! Taking away the Doctor does not make Donna less amazing. She will always be amazing.
Mark, you've explained exactly my feelings about this episode. It's another one where Davies tried to do too much, so the plot is little more than a string holding together the emotional core of the episode. But that core is so powerful that it's difficult to rewatch. Not gonna lie, this episode makes me bawl. Mostly because of all the companions Donna is the one it's easiest to identify with. Sure, she's brash and opinionated, but it's sort of been a cover for her. No matter how much good she does, she is convinced she's just 'a temp' or 'no one special.' Even when the Doctor first saw her, he told her "You're not important."
Here she gets her one shining moment. She saves all of reality. But then she loses everything that's made her her since she met the Doctor. Donna doesn't die, but she doesn't really live either.
To Donna Noble, most important woman in the universe.
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The German Daleks were about as bad as the Norwegian "Bad Wolf". "Exterminieren" may be a word, but NO ONE would use it like this. I loved how they use the polite form of address before they shoot you, though;)
There was a similar translation error back in "The Doctor Dances": The bomb Jack rides on says "Schlechter Wolf", which literally translates to "lousy wolf". There are two different translations for "bad" in German, one meaning "bad quality, rubbish" (schlecht) and one meaning "evil" (böse). They picked the wrong one, which shows their laziness IMO because "Böser Wolf", the correct translation, is actually a very common expression. Any random native speaker could have told them.
/native German rant
Heh, I was kind of glad that they never actually had any characters speaking French in "The Girl in the Fireplace" because there's a really good chance they'd screw it up and then I would have to bang my head against a wall every time I watch that episode.
Heheh. Yeah, upon this rewatch I paused it and called over my German roommate whenever there was any German. She didn't know what "exterminieren" meant and couldn't understand the Daleks at all, and she thought the brief conversation between Martha and the German lady was hilarious.
(cont)
And if that's not enough, we get Wilf saying good-bye to the Doctor and promising to remember him for Donna.
"Every night, Doctor… when it gets dark… and the stars come out… I'll look up. On her behalf. I'll look up at the sky and think of you."
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Wilf, I love you – BUT YOU ARE KILLING MY SOUL!!!
Oh – and it gets even better. This is an alternate ending for "Journey's End" that they filmed where they show Donna hearing the TARDIS engines and she seems to recognize them, but she doesn't pay it any mind. I so, so, SO wish they'd have kept that part in. Not necessarily the bit at the end with the Cybermen, but the little part with Donna because I just want her to remember somewhere in her subconscious that she traveled with the Doctor – link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_WPs0fDpWA
In honor of Donna, this is a video I made that I think captures her personality and what she's striving for all through Series 4. It's a lot happier than the ending of this episode, so if you need a little bit of happiness, here you go. Enjoy – http://vimeo.com/13862194
(I would embed it, but Vimeo's a little sticky about posting stuff here and YouTube blocks this particular vid. This video is not spoilery, but some of my other ones are. Just don't click on the ones on the sidebar and you'll be okay)
(the quotes from the episode I included here were originally transcribed by http://sue-denimme.livejournal.com who has many memorable quotes transcribed from all episodes of the new series of Doctor Who. Spoilers abound – proceed with caution)
RE: Mark Watches Classic Who – YES for "Genesis of the Daleks!!!" I haven't seen very much from the Tom Baker era *ducks flying rotten fruit* but I love, love, LOVE "Genesis of the Daleks!" ("The Mind Robber" is really good too) SO EXCITE!
OH GOD LITTLEFOOT'S MOTHER *izdead*
So, even though I've seen this episode multiple times in the last few years, even just thinking about it tears me up, so I'mma gonna sit in the corner over there ——-> and cry, ok?
"Hey, did you miss me, Rose? How about you spend eternity in a parallel universe with a human copy of myself? Holy god, that is so, so, so, so uncomfortable. RIGHT?"
LOLing like crazy at this, because YANA on this. Seriously, it is completely freaking weird. As much as I enjoyed there being two Doctors (three if you count Donna) I feeling weird about Handy (or Doctor.2 or 10.2, or Other Doctor, or whatever you want to call him.) But I have this gif I need to use before this goes any farther…
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Okay, moving on. On the one hand it was like the writers were thinking, "Okay, we can't just leave Rose over there in a parallel universe getting on with things for the rest of her life, so we'll have the Doctor accidentally kind of clone himself! And the clone will totally have all the Doctor's memories and personality, but he'll have a human lifespan and no regenerations! Then we can leave him with Rose! Perfect!" Uh…okay. It just feels too neat. On the other hand (heh, hand), Rose and the Doctor finally get to be together in some way. The cynical side of me says that there's no way the Doctor will manage to content himself with a settled life on a single planet, he's going to be miserable even if he does get to stay with Rose. I try to make the cynical side of me shut up though, because I want Rose and Handy to have a happy ending.
I'm also not a fan of the towing-the-Earth-back-with-the-TARDIS bit. Cheesy as all get-out, though I love everyone flying the TARDIS.
Donna…oh, Donna. Donna's my favorite too, and her end breaks my heart. The parts where she's the DoctorDonna are so amazing and can't help grinning as I watch them, even thought I know what's coming. Donna was the perfect companion for the Doctor, exactly what he needed at that time in his life, and he was just what she needed as well. After all that character development, after she finally believes she's a person with worth, she's dropped back exactly where she was before she met the Doctor. And she doesn't even know what she's lost.
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EX-MUMMY HAND!!! That episode made me fall over laughing.
Sorry, probably not the effect you were going for. Nice GIF of Eomer.
Buffy/Giles AND Eomer holding that character I won't name in case Mark ever watches/reads LotR, in a post about Donna sadness? BRB crying forever.
In re: your first gif, I am pretty sure this cute and silly little fic is non-spoilery. 🙂
Ugh, Eomer's devastation. DON'T BE SAD I LOVE YOU KARL URBAN
The cynical side of me says that there's no way the Doctor will manage to content himself with a settled life on a single planet, he's going to be miserable even if he does get to stay with Rose. I try to make the cynical side of me shut up though, because I want Rose and Handy to have a happy ending.
Part of me would really like to see this, either as a spinoff or just an episode of the show. Like, if she has trouble accepting him or they have to get to know each other again, and whether or not they really are able to be together in the end or what. I did like the part where he whispers in her ear, because when the Doctor is like "does it really need saying?" I was like YES DAMN RIGHT IT DOES NEED SAYING YOU COMMITMENT-AVOIDING JERK. But on the other hand, Handy DOES seem like a different person from the Doctor, even if he is very similar. So I think there would definitely be an adjustment period there. I'd really like to see their story.
Random facts:
This episode marked the first time in history that Doctor Who was the most watched episode of the week, although there have been other episodes with more viewers they were never no.1
In the German version of Doctor Who the Daleks don't say extermineren but elimineren (eliminate).
There was an alternate ending leading into the Next Doctor but it was cut because it didn't work, ruined the mood and wasn't necessary. Next Doctor was already in the can so they ran a trailer instead.
THERE IS SO MUCH FANDOM RAGE OVER DONNA'S ENDING and for good reason because it is all the sad that the huge amount of character development she had over the season just. went poof.
I know you had to save her life, Doctor, but damn. Damn. )8 That shot with her on the phone. My heart. Million pieces.
The Rose/10.5 thing is…..really whack. I mean yes he's more human, but we know full well that the Doctor in any form doesn't do domestic. Even working with Alt!Torchwood with Rose, 10.5 is going to go stir-crazy. Poor Rose, that wasn't the ending you deserved. )8 (On the other…hand, no pun intended, you could say it mean's Rose's Doctor's just a little bit Donna too. Rose/Donna 4lyfe.)
AS FOR THE SPECIALS, OH GOD MARK YOU ARE SO UNPREPARED. SO UNPREPARED. YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW.
i am too mired in schoolwork to give the appropriate donna appreciation gif party. i will have to leave that to you guys.
I mean yes he's more human, but we know full well that the Doctor in any form doesn't do domestic. Even working with Alt!Torchwood with Rose, 10.5 is going to go stir-crazy
Now you see, in my head canon, that's absolutely true, but only to an extent. I mean, he has a whole new earth and only a tiny fraction of the life span he would normally have. I can see him wanting to learn everything he possibly can about this new universe that clearly has a few HUGE differences from his original one, and not thinking he has nearly enough time to do so. in that sense, he'll be busy busy busy for the rest of his life. idk if this made sense, but yeah. XD
Also there is the cut scene where Original Flavour Ten gives Rose and 10.5 a chunk of TARDIS (because apparently TARDISes are like plants and you can grow them from cuttings). So they could presumably grow their own TARDIS and have crazy adventures too….
That said, I only learned about the cut scene recently, and I rather prefer 10.5 being forced to take "the slow path." I don't imagine Rose and 10.5 having any kind of IMMEDIATE happy ending due to all the above issues and then some, although I'm sure they work things out eventually.
Ah yes, Journey's End, also known as the Episode of FAKE OUTS.
Guess what, the Doctor's regenerating – haha, psych, no he isn't! (I wouldn't have minded if Ten regenerated then, actually. It would have been surprising, but refreshing, and I would have felt sad at losing him. Slightly disappointed that the team wasn't brave enough to follow through but it doesn't spoil the episode for me.)
Guess what, one of the Doctor's companions is going to die – no, she isn't, we're just going to wipe her memory and any character development she might have gained. Donna's fate… it's not just Russell T. Davies pulling A Certain Point of View on us again, though that certainly annoyed me. It's that Donna forcibly having her mind wiped and being regressed to her Runaway Bride state is actually seen as better than death! No, it isn't! It's not that I wanted Donna to die, more that I would have preferred a true death as opposed to what the Doctor did to her. It should have been her choice, but he couldn't let her choose death. And you know what, I understand why the Doctor did that, and God knows it's completely in character (this is the Doctor who's tried to save the Daleks and the Master after all) but that doesn't I mean I agree with his actions. I'm still angry. Part of me will always be angry. Donna Noble was a feisty, amazing woman and she was Fridged just to make the Doctor suffer. Again.
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AHAHAHA, yes, Ten.5 or Clone!Doctor or whatever you want to call him. I couldn't help but laugh at how obviously RTD was bending over backwards to give the Ten/Rose fans what they wanted (but ended up pissing them off anyway because it's so creepy). What makes this doubly hilarious is how RTD went on and on in The Writer's Tale (is a sort of memoir he wrote about his time as Executive Producer of Who) about how Rose would never accept this clone but then he ended up putting them together anyway!
So now I've ranted, I'm just going to point out the stuff that still makes me squee:
MICKEY! "Us Smiths gotta stick together!"
Mickey and Jack!
"What do I get? Mickey Mouse!"
"Captain Cheesecake!"
*HUGTIME*
"And that's Captain Beefcake!"
"And that's enough hugging."
Jackie Tyler being her usual awesome self. "No, you plum. He's called Tony." Hahaha, feel the burn. XD
Martha Jones being her awesome self and giving Davros and the Daleks one last chance (Doctor, really don't think you can pontificate about genocide at this point in time).
DONNA NOBLE, ladies and gentleman. She did not go gently into that goodnight. She raged against the dying of the light.
I couldn't help but laugh at how obviously RTD was bending over backwards to give the Ten/Rose fans what they wanted (but ended up pissing them off anyway because it's so creepy).
That's not true. Sure, some Ten/Rose fans didn't like it, but a lot of us aren't angry (rather, elated) and don't think it's creepy (rather, romantic). Don't believe me? There's a whole 80+ post meta on an LJ community dedicated to Doctor/Rose fans about this very topic that was posted just a couple of days ago. Only a couple of people on there were disappointed in the slightest.
That's interesting. Most of the reaction I saw towards it was negative. Granted, it was immediately afterwards so people might have changed their minds by now. Do you have a link to the meta? I'd be interested to read it.
I'd profer not to post the URL publicly here just because I don't want the comm to get swamped and make the mods hate me forevermore XD But I'd be happy to message it to you! Are you on LJ/Twitter/whatnot by any chance?
Yes, I'm sonictardis on Twitter. 🙂
I don't have much to say other than that I adore this 2-parter (3-parter)? And that I think that the Bad Wolf Bay scene is incredibly romantic, but of course ymmv. And as a proud shipper, this ep is like crack for me.
The real reason I'm posting a comment is to post the extended kiss, from the JE Confidential. My favorite gif of all time is no longer spoilery!!! =D =D
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/2jamgli.gif">
<3. So much sexiness there! So much not in the episode. 🙁
At first I concluded it had to do with ratings, but then I remembered that Ten has kissed every other girl ever more passionately than the FINAL KISS WITH ROSE. Editing people? Really? Why did you choose that take?
Umm, this is going to sound stupid but am I missing something in terms of getting notifications? Every time in the last couple of weeks the Twitter update drops into my feed I dive on here and there's already a load of posts from ten, twenty minutes earlier.
Annnyway, this episode… sucks. Sorry, I try and stay positive about Who (really do love this show) but Journey's Meh is flat out terrible. Oh there's some good ideas but they're lost along the way. Just for starters:
* The 'regeneration' is a massive kick to the collective balls of the audience. It's messing with one of the very few staples of the show, has ZERO payoff in the long run (seriously, everything it sets up is wrapped up by the end of the episode). Such a huge cop-out.
* The story is WAY too busy with characters and you can practically see RTD counting lines to make sure he's being fair to the cast. As a result, oddly, the pacing is terrible (very little actually happens when you break it down) and no-one actually gets to have any effect whatsoever.
* The alternate Torchwood has one hell of a view screen. How else do you explain Mickey and Jackie dropping in with such pinpoint perfect timing to save Sarah Jane?
* That frakin' control console…. GOD that's stupid. Why, in the name of all that's holy, would the Daleks a) have a console in Davros's 'vault' (i.e. cell) that can be connected via flipping a series of toggles to the entire Dalek fleet and b) why does it have flippy switches that Daleks couldn't operate and Davros couldn't reach? I guess they can flip 'em one way but bringing them back… yeah, minor problem there.
* The Doctor saying Handy is bloodthirsty and all broken… TEN is saying that? The monster who condemned the family of blood to never-ending imprisonment for daring to come after him and target innocents when he could have just beaten them straight-up? The arrogant SOB who murdered the entire Racnoss race? The… well, you get the idea.
* And the TARDIS got to Bad Wolf Bay HOW exactly? It's been established that it doesn't WORK in that universe, it was a major bloody plot point and required a decade of the Doctor's life to get going again. Hopping over to that universe to drop Rose and Jackie off is a massive no-no.
* The Daleks developed a massive case of the stupids. After their wonderful performance in The Stolen Earth and all the trouble they go to to hide from the Doctor they capture him and…. let him live?!?!!! The whole sodding point of their elaborate scheme was to avoid him, Dalek Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaan was dribbling about him bringing doom and they just stick him in a cell? Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb DUMB!
Sorry but while there's good here (hey Wilf!) this was when I started wanting RTD gone. I'm incredibly grateful to him for bringing the show back and have enormous respect for his abilities but it was clear he was either out of ideas or, more likely, spread too thin with this, Torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures. I wish it were otherwise but there you go.
Upvoted x 10000000000000000.
Yeah, Ten saying to Handy "BUT YOU'RE EVIL!" had me go "Wait… what? You're worse!"
I'm sure I'm just forgetting about this, but when did it say the Tardis doesn't work in Pete's World?
SO FREAKING SAD.
<img src=http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgwgteBu1T1qb7pi2.gif>
brb I will now cry 1,000 tears of unhappiness at the fact that Donna doesn't remember the doctor, that Rose loves drugs, and THAT I AM NOT A PERSON IN DOCTOR WHO.
but I found this so it makes me happy
<img src=http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_leel865i851qb84lwo1_500.gif>
YES SERIES FIVE.
<img src=http://static.tumblr.com/xm3qwvl/2Shlg31j0/amy_pond_and_doctor_who_gif.gif>
NOT YET BUT IT'S ALMOST TIME, MATT AND KAREN. ALMOST TIME.
What the hell is that man wearing. XD
Matt is the hipsterist of hipsters, his range of jumpers is awe-inspiring. Not to mention the pearls! <333
Matt Smith in pearls you say?
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/6icio7.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
WHOA MATT SMITH IN DRAG
How have I never seen this? What is this FROM?
It's from a play he did in the West End. With Lindsay Duncan. 😀
Tom Baker is the 0R1G1N4L H1PS73R
<img src="http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp148/Teppic24/TomBakerTheDaleks.jpg" border="0" alt="Tom Baker &amp; the Daleks">
but Matt is a close second
Whatever he wants, my dear, he's the Hipster King. Just wait until you see the knitted Mickey Mouse jumper. XD
Matt Smith can make any garment cool. 😉
More on this in time (ba dum DUM!) but uh no. Dun care how pretty or mental he is, he CANNOT actually make any garment cool.
But the Doctor can!
The sad Pikachu!! It's too much!
Sound acceptable? PARTY TIME.
Can there be party time after The End of Time? That seems difficult.
Not if you're a Time Lord!
Donna has the most heart-crushing "death" of all. I mean, I bawled like a baby for Rose at the end of series 2, but that is not nearly as wrenching, moving, utterly depressing as Donna's end. She can never know, much less remember, how much she grew as a person or how important she was to the entire universe. Just watching this series again, with every reference to DoctorDonna, was so devastating… I will love her forever and ever.
I just rewatched this episode since it's been a few months since I last saw it. I cry every time. Poor Donna. She's pretty high up on the list of favourite companions. Watching it for the third time has sort of ruined it for me, because I'm already crying before we get to the part where she has to lose her memories. The first time I watched it I freaked out when she started repeating. I didn't want her to go. I still don't. :'(
I originally didn't mind the Rose/Handy!Doctor ending. At least she had (in a weird sort of way) her man. It is a bit weird and sort of cruel since it isn't THE Doctor, but it's not all bad. Is it? I'm probably the only person who is okay with it, even after seeing it for the third time. I'm a sucker for happy endings, even if they are a bit weird. Weird is better than none at all, I say. 😛 And I'm okay with being the only one.
I do love the scene with the Tardis with all the companions and flying properly. It's one of those scenes that just reminds me that she is one of the most important (if not THE most important) character of the show.
The thing about the German Daleks is the fact that Daleks are already sort of German anyway. I don't remember what video it was talking about the Daleks, but it said the way they act and sort of the way they talk is very WW2 German like. I wish I could remember where I heard it (I know it was on a video though…).
I love that short and odd little explanation for why Gwen looks like Gwyneth (also love that they thought to have one. And there's makes as much sense as "Petrova Doppleganger" on TVD. Might as well just say "Played by the same actress". I'm off topic…).
I just watched this episode and yet I can't seem to get my thoughts in a proper order. I think I've covered everything for now. If not, I'll add to it later.
One of my favorite parts is when the Doctor kinda tells Donna's mom off in a way. So true and so sad. Also my heart broke when Wilf was so excited when Donna came back home, but how is voice starts shaking when he sees her collapsed. And when he said that she was better with the doctor. He knew what made her better was the way the doctor let her realize she mattered.
Poor, poor Donna. She understood what it meant to be part time lord, what it was doing to her, and yet still she said she wanted to stay. She didn't want to go back. She begged not to go back.
On to happier favorite parts, when Donna tells Jack he is best at flying the tardis, and when she pushes Sarah Jane out of the way so that she can hug Captain Jack.
There's a great video on You Tube somewhere, showing what was really happening on the Earth as it was being towed back…
So much to appreciate here. Firstly it's great that when Rose first encountered Martha in action, her reaction was "she's good!" So much for Martha being second best, Rose was impressed by Martha.
The whole "Captain Cheesecake" "That's Captain Beefcake" "That's enough hugging" was hilarious (by the way, what is Jack's coat made of to survive the furnace?)
The Daleks keeping Davros as a near prisoner, but allowing him a bit of fun time to torture the Doctor mentally. Meanwhile, how culturally sensitive of the daleks to ensure that they exterminated the people of the World in their local languages.
Dalek Caan, the dalek who went so bonkers he was the nearest thing to a sane dalek ever!
Naked Doctor! Part Donna too (I wonder if that might affect Handy's orientation? Donna is clearly a hetero woman!).
Jackie not being allowed to fly the Tardis. Plus Donna throwing Sarah Jane off Jack (just as Jack was getting in there, he'd been hitting on Sarah Jane right from the start) so that she could get a hug.
The Doctor calling Sylvia on how she treats Donna, and what wonderful acting from Catherine Tate at the end as the old Donna reappeared, oblivious. Wilf's heartbreak at this point too. (And the pouring water finally producing one of the very few instances of David Tennant having an "ooh me accent's slipping" moment).
Rose's fate. I can see why it makes sense from the Doctor's viewpoint. He's an alien and can't have that sort of relationship long-term with Rose, as she will get old and he will either outlive her or change again (and she really would freak out at that, as she'd already demonstrated). Plus, the Doctor really doesn't really like himself so really couldn't put up with a mainly human copy of himself knocking around. And he's still got his promise to Jackie to always return Rose to her. From the Doctor's viewpoint, apart from the agony of saying "Goodbye" to Rose again (which he'd have had to do eventually anyway, even if only from old age) it makes sense. Watching them coming out of the Tardis I get the feeling that Jackie (like MIckey) has guessed what's going to happen too, as she's chatting away to Handy and teasing him like she teases the Doctor.
Rose must also realise that too at some level. Literally, the Doctor was trying to give himself to her, (but in a literal form of a life-sized pet). The real loser here is Handy. He is the Doctor in terms of how he seees himself, a man who goes nuts when stuck in one place and time now stuck forever on one World in one Time and with a limited lifespan. It is possible that he'll die of old age just before he goes totally off his rocker, but Handy wasn't exactly given a choice at all. He was going to be stuck on this World so he could either try to convince Rose or end up stuck. Oh and he gets Jackie as a Mother-in-law. Permanently.
by the way, what is Jack's coat made of to survive the furnace?
It's made of awesome! ;D
There's this really sad fanvid called 'Signed, the Doctor' or something and it has Handy committing suicide just because he can't take the life he is stuck with in Pete's World. It's so depressing, but sadly, I could totally see that happening. It will totally be hell for him to live there, I'm sure.
I hate being negative about things, but this episode. 😐 I really can't say much more than agreed on all of this. Rose deserved a better resolution to her character arc. Donna's ending fills me with rage, and when combined with OTT Dalek plots (I'm not really a Dalek fan), I was put off of new episodes as well. 🙁
Editing to add: I'm not all negative! I agree with your positives and have to add that Jack and Martha as BFFs is one of my favorite things ever. Jackie poking fun at Handy was extremely lol-worthy as well.
Yes, I liked it too.
From within the story, I hated it.
But from outside the story, it worked so well and the tragedy of it was beautiful. And it was the only way to write her out that wouldn't have left me very dissatisfied.
THIS. It's tragic from within the story, but it is brilliant for those of us on the outside watching.
<img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_3lVOb8wvDlE/TWMsvJciyzI/AAAAAAAABUc/VsFEUz_pvl8/donnadoctor.gif">
I loved the DoctorDonna. But it's so sad re-watching this scene and DYING INSIDE every time someone says "the DoctorDonna", because you know what it's going to lead to.
So, that said, I REALLY HATE THIS ENDING. It's just NOT FAIR. We spend all season showing Donna how SUPREMELY AWESOME she is, despite her insistence that she's just a temp from Chiswick, and then it's TAKEN ALL AWAY. And she'll never be able to pop back into the Doctor's life like Martha does, and she won't even be able to remember him like Rose can, and she's just going back to this life that she was so desperate to get out of. UGH WHYYYY.
And regarding Rose and Handy: yeah, it is sort of creepy and weird. But I think it's good, because being part-human, Handy can love her in a way that Ten can't. Whatever he whispered to Rose, the Doctor never would have been able to say to her. But I feel like he's still the same Doctor, in the way that Ten is still the same person as Nine even after he regenerates. A little bit off, but he's still the same person with the same memories and the same feelings. So I still cry bucketloads of tears during that scene.
BUT DONNA. I CAN NEVER FORGIVE YOU FOR DOING THIS TO AWESOME BRAVE CLEVER WONDERFUL DONNA FUCKIN' NOBLE.
<img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_3lVOb8wvDlE/TWMsudqRzLI/AAAAAAAABUU/7X5ZUKkGWvQ/donna2.gif">
<img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_3lVOb8wvDlE/TWMsu3XvyWI/AAAAAAAABUY/5_Ez0TtKBOw/donna.gif">
Why did the Doctor not use the chameleon arch from Human Nature on Donna? I realize that Catherine Tate was leaving the show anyway, but that is a fairly big plothole.
Except for the part where that isn't a plot hole at all?
Upvoting because downvoting is just for spoilers not disagreeing with other peoples opinions. It would be a stupid idea though it would hurt like hell and she'd probably end up as a completely different person to even the Donna she was before she met the Doctor.
I've noticed random downvoting on a few other comments as well. I really don't understand why people keep doing that. *sigh*
It's okay, the U.S.S. Enterprise is in action (thank you, Artic_Hare)!
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/29z76fd.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Yes we are! Combatting uncalled for downvotes and getting home in time for tea!
idek what I'm saying.
I heard the call to action and have upvoted for justice. 😀
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/67i72w.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Damn straight we are! 😀
(My pleasure! I saw the acronym you came up with, and realized it was one letter away from being an awesome Star Trek ref. So I view it as a collab!)
Go collaborations! I love this community for always building off of eachother's ideas!
I don't think the Chameleon Arch would have worked, as it rewrites a Time Lord's biology to be human. Donna's problem is that her human biology can't handle the Time Lord mind. Perhaps it's something that could be tinkered with to make it work for Donna, but part of the trouble is that Donna's running out of time (hitting the record groove on "binary", that sort of thing), so even had the idea occurred to the Doctor, it would probably take more time than Donna had.
One should never analyse RTD's plotlines, because the more one thinks about them, the less sense they make… 😛
I think that's true of MOST Who writers actually. XD
I'm afraid RTD far exceeds the rest of them combined… 😛
Fair enough, although I disagree. XD
I saw this for the first time in a pub amongst other Whovians so the excitement of that sort of made the experience better then the episode actually was. Rusty must write EPIC, MORE EPIC in red pen when he writes the finals 😛
So, so sad what happens to Donna. If Donna can't handle being half human/Timelord then how can Handy?
Rose got a Doctor of her own and hopefully that's her story done. I wanna post a fan art of that scene but it may anger some Rose fans. It's by the artist that did that fantastic picture "The Doctor's Companions."
I interrupt this wonderful, terrible, sad, joyful reflection on what Mark has just seen, to look ahead, to put Mark in the picture ahead of Genesis on Wednesday. (Probably a good decision to have a break between Dalek stories, btw.)
The Fourth Doctor is travelling with Sarah Jane Smith, who you've met before (or do I mean *after*?) and Lt. Harry Sullivan, a UNIT Medical Officer.
They are currently `sans TARDIS`, because at the beginning of the previous story, the trio transmatted down to Earth from spacestation Nerva, and at the start of this story, they are in the process of beaming back up.
Enjoy!
Now, back to the gifwailing. *sobs*
Except for "Children of Earth", Donna's end is the saddest and most depressing thing ever written by RTD.
I love Rose, I LOVE her, but Donna Noble is my favorite companion without a doubt. And I thought they couldn't make a more depressing ending for a companion after what they did to Rose, but Donna's is the definition of pure tragedy.
And thank god it wasn't just me who was creeped up by Rose and Doctor II. I wanted so badly to be happy for her but it just felt so wrong to me. I mean I guess she'll be okay but it left a bad taste in my mouth.
Every time I watch this episode for most of it I'm like this:
<img src=http://www.walagata.com/w/seca/Screenshot2011-02-18at100925PM.png>
Because awesome meeting of the companions will always be awesome.
But then when it gets to the end with Donna I always end up like this (but with tears):
<img src=http://www.walagata.com/w/seca/129902618685-129771692025.jpg>
I just loved Donna so much it breaks my heart every time she has to forget how awesome she is.
But at least I now have Ponies to watch to take me to a happy place. And it even has a Doctor Whooves.
<img src=http://www.walagata.com/w/seca/6684826.png>
Ooh, I can post this now, as it's not spoilery.
Back in '08, a couple YouTubers made Dr. Whorrible videos — the music of "Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog" put together with Doctor Who footage. It's pretty great.
I particularly enjoy the two Bad Horse songs, but my favorite by far is "Brand New Day"; when you think about the song and Doctor Who, it's an… unexpected combination.
I love you for posting these.
So, Doctor, you forced her into being "a temp" in the most literal way yet.
BFFs!
Rose: *snicker snicker* Daleks!
Jack: Oh God!
Love that scene.
UGH THIS EPISODE.
Like, I KNOW that it's RTD at his best, with the brilliant emotional writing, and it was so much fun seeing everyone together, but ugh. I watched this episode on Friday, and it's Tuesday now and I still feel depressed.
I was already upset from the Doctor's sadface, while Rose and Handy (we're calling him Handy, right? I'm gonna call him Handy) kiss. I was already heart broken, but that was nothing compared to Donna's ending. That had me bawling, it was awful.
There's so much fun and awesome in this one, but the epic sadness overpowers it for me. I can't have positive feelings about it, because it made me feel like crap all weekend.
Well, it's like a sucker-punch, because you've got that awesomely feel-good scene where the Tardis has all the pilots, and everyone's together and happy and amazing… and then… it happens. And poor Donna… guh, the look on her face when she realises what's going on… too much heartbreak.
"I was already upset from the Doctor's sadface, while Rose and Handy (we're calling him Handy, right? I'm gonna call him Handy) kiss."
You know, one of the few acting weaknesses I've ever seen from Tennant is in this scene. I think he (as Ten, I mean) should have shown more emotion, more pain, at seeing Rose kissing Handy, because even though it happened through his own doing, I think for the viewers, we would have felt more support for that resolution if we'd felt that Ten didn't want to give Rose up, and not that it was a convenient way for him to pawn her off on another man. This wouldn't have completely solved this problem for me as a viewer (I think a few more lines of dialog from Ten, Handy and Donna was necessary), but it would have helped.
Spoiler! You should delete your comment.
Shit, sorry, I think I mixed up the endings we get in this episode with the endings in a future episode.
I feel like I should have something clever or pithy to say. But I don't.
This episode breaks my heart. I have yet to forgive the show for doing this to Donna.
Also, I choose to believe she got, like, 5-7 years with the Doctor before this happened. That they got so many more amazing, wonderful adventures together, we just didn't see them. I don't care what that does to timelines. Fuck it. She deserves more.
I was looking for outtakes the other day and I found this. I love so I thought I would share.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkIcg1FSw54&fe…
Also, about the Warp Star and Osterhagen key. The way I saw it wasnt that the Doctor taught them all violence and destruction. it was shown in Midnight that that is already Human nature. What the Doctor did is teach them all to give the enemy a chance. Both groups decided to parley with the Daleks before actually going through with it.
I wish I could upvote this more!
Finally I can post one of my favourite fanart pics:
<img src="http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/189/6/d/6d3940b76e4f5ead9816cab262a7761c.jpg">
😀
Good God, this episode was awful! The only good things were Davros (deliciously evil) and Donna's tragic fate (genuinely sad). And Wilf. But the rest… eurgh. Once again, RTD tries too much and ends up with a jumbled mess that doesn't make sense. The Metacrisis was an incredibly cheap trick to have Rose end up with a copy Doctor of her own (please excuse me while I vomit) and the way Donna disabled the Daleks by flipping a few switches was probably the worst resolution ever. Stephen_M summed it up very well in his post a few pages back…
Why were all of these people come together at this exact moment? There had to be one beyond the need for Davies to show off.
Sorry, there wasn't. Only one massive fanwank. The whole scene of the bunch of them piloting the TARDIS towing the Earth (TOWING THE FUCKING EARTH FOR CHRISSAKE!) was just ridiculous and downright cringe-worthy. They didn't even bother editing out Freema breaking the fourth wall and grinning at the camera.
I wish someone told RTD to stop trying to be epic, because he just can't pull it off. Thank God for Moffat…
That's the pic I wanted to post! Ah-ha! Poor Rose though…
I'm not sorry for her at all – she gets her own Doctor and she's STILL NOT HAPPY?
Sorry, in my book, that makes her officially a selfish, obsessive, whiney bitch.
Thank you, RTD, for making me utterly hate a character that was quite good in Series 1…
Okay, so I'm a proud member of the U.S.S. Enterprise (Upvote Stalker Society Enterprises), I'm not a fan of needless downvoting, and as such, I'm coming out to say that I did downvote this.
Your opinions are your own, and I respect that, but namecalling, even of a fictional character, is SO INCREDIBLY unnecessary.
This. Namecalling is where I draw the line.
I haven't liked her since s1 either but I found the whole Handy situation so creepy that I felt a bit bad for her. On the other hand I was relieved because now it truly felt like that would be it, no more Rose.
No need to call her a bitch.
I don't have a lot of thoughts Mark, but I agree with you 100%.
Donna's tragedy is a FUCKING TRAGEDY, and the only hope is that, as we learned in Turn Left, she's fully capable of being awesome entirely on her own. Hopefully she'll find someone to believe in her in her future, like the Doctor did, like Rose did. That's the only hope we can have for her. Hopefully Wilf will keep her going!
Rose's end is CREEPY AND AWFUL, and I HATE IT. As cool as it is to get a look at how much she's grown and what a total BAMF she became in Pete's World, I think her plotline should have ended at Bad Wolf Bay the first time around. That was a complete arc. And I loved it, because what I see of myself in Rose, is that when you when you hang on to love even when it's impossible, when everyone around you says it can't be, you're going to get hurt and badly. I wanted Rose's tragedy to stand as it was… because unlike Donna's tragedy, it's a point from which you can grow and move on.
Also, why does she have to go BACK to Pete's World? Micky went back to his original reality, why can't Rose? I suppose Jackie and Pete might keep her there, but we don't see her making that decision. It really looks like the Doctor deciding FOR her, as he (and Pete) did in Doomsday, what's best for her. And I HATE that her job becomes "healing her man" instead of "being a BAMF." RAEG. So, all in all, I would have preferred "Journey's End" WITHOUT Rose & co. It's necessary for Davros's "trial" of the Doctor I suppose? But there's no good way to wrap it up once you bring Rose back into the picture. (Once again, RTD: emotionally so good, mechanically sometimes SO PROBLEMATIC.)
In conclusion, in memoriam:
<img src="http://i54.tinypic.com/rwnf2g.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
It really looks like the Doctor deciding FOR her, as he (and Pete) did in Doomsday, what's best for her.
That is EXACTLY what he is doing, and it's something that the Doctor does time and time again.
Which is exactly why I ship Handy/Rose. He gives her a CHOICE.
"I'm part human. Specifically, the aging part. I'll grow old and never regenerate. I've only got one life… Rose Tyler. I could spend it with you. If you want."
That one little sentence makes a world of difference to me.
GOOD POINT. I never read it that way… I always read it as Ten's basic insecurities coming to the surface (like in the Christmas Invasion when Ten isn't sure Rose will still want to travel with him). But I like this reading so I will now ADOPT IT.
I'm a huge Ten/Rose shipper, because I LOVE impossible, doomed love stories, and so as the huge Ten/Rose shipper that I am… I never want them together.
It's only through some really interesting 10.5/Rose fic that I've become more reconciled to their ending. But as much as I like 10.5 for being the one to tell Rose he loves her and to give her ALL THE MAKEOUTS and give her a choice… eh, I still would've preferred that things with Rose end with Doomsday.
I totally feel you there actually. I love me some angst, to the point where I actually get sick enjoyment out of watching Ten watch Handy/Rose XD but yeah. If Ten had been happy too, I would have hated the ending.
Today has been a sad review day for you 🙁 Have a hug
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/sqwonk/0003e75q.gif">
I need to fix my issue with repeating things people have already said so my comments don't feel so meaningless 🙁
Meanwhile! I haven't found a ton of DW fanfiction that I like, but this oneshot makes me giggle everytime. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4838434/1/The_AU_Atta…
Yay! (I thought it was my post, but I didn't want to say it, just in case).
Also I would like to take this moment to rec a totally awesome bunch of fic to anyone that doesn't hate Handy/Rose
The Altverse: Series One
It's a virtual series of the adventures Rose and Handy get up to in Pete's World, and it is awesome. Treated like a real series, with one head writer as "showrunner" and lots of writers writing individual episodes. As such some are better than others, but that just makes it even more like a real series doesn't it? XD
Note that it DOES contain spoilers past series four.
oh hai there fic! I shall have to be a-reading these…
Do! They are awesome! My personal favorite is Day of the Dinosaurs.
I don't think I have any mobile version viewing enabled. I am happy for you though!
Yay!
I think I speak for everyone when I say: WE LOVE YOU TOO. <3 <3
We do! We love you as much as Rose Loves Drugs.
As long as it's not more than Rose Loves Drugs. I don't think that's physically possible.
Very true. Any more would punch holes through the fabric of reality or something and we wouldn't want to do that…
That would be like dividing by zero.
THAT alone says so much about us. Aw, Rose and her drugs inseparable. XD
I want to upvote this more than once, because I agree with every word, but I can't. Just know that I am sending you ~upvotes in spirit~ or something.
im not gona lie. in the best traditions of fandom secrets, i can never forgive RTD for what he did to donna here. donna is an amazing carcter, and she deserved so much. and it crushed her. he crushed her. she is by far my fave new who companion, and, well…she deserved beter
its petty, i know, but its true. one a less accberic, more contructive comment…i feel RTD trys to do to much too. he also, i feel, trys to jam old companions in everywere, and never could let go of rose, witch i found a little annoying.
It sucks. A lot. I don't know if I hate him for it, but I really wish it hadn't happened. 🙁
Look, I like RTD as much as the next guy. He brought back a great show. He's introduced us to wonderful characters and allowed us to watch them grow as people. And I like most of what he's written. He has his flaws, but they're forgivable – his pieces of silly, made-up, deus ex machina technobabble usually make some sort of EMOTIONAL or THEMATIC sense, even if they don't make logical sense. It's why I was able to tolerate "Last of the Time Lords" (that combined with the fact that the first two episodes were so good). I could understand where the critics were coming from, but I respectfully disagreed.
And then this two-parter came along and proceeded to prove every single RTD hater right.
** WARNING – RABID FANBOY RANT AHEAD – FANS OF JOURNEY'S END ARE ADVISED TO MOVE ALONG ***
I don't usually get mad at a TV show – after all, it's just a piece of entertainment. I've almost certainly watched stuff even worse than this and just shrugged my shoulders and went "Oh, well." But this two-parter PISSED ME OFF like no piece of television ever has before or since. This is a truly loathsome, manipulative piece of manufactured event television, stuffed full of bullshit to the point of bursting (if it doesn't end up seeping through its own gaping plot holes first).
I just about put my foot through the TV when the stupid metacrisis unfolded. Not only was it contrived, not only did it turn the fairly simple concept of regeneration over on its end with silly new questions ("If he could always prevent himself from regenerating, why did he never think of it before?" "If the healing and regeneration processes are separate, why bother with the regeneration process to begin with? Surely the mighty Time Lords are capable of rewriting their own biology."), but it fully exposed the "I'm regenerating" cliffhanger for what it was – a cynical attempt to grab a few million more viewers by dangling the threat of David Tennant's eviction from the Big Brother Police Box over the heads of the British public. (Special thanks to Andrew Rilstone for that last bit).
There are also far too many characters that have no reason to be here, don't really serve a useful purpose, or whose lines/actions could just as easily be transferred to another character's. Why the hell did the UNIT/Torchwood equivalent send Jackie Tyler of all people to the other side? I mean, yeah, she knows the Doctor, but apart from that what else can she do? Of all the people you could choose to help save the Earth, why in the name of Rassilon's BUTTHOLE did they choose Rose's mum?
Also, Mickey pretty much does nothing.
The plot is just the worst, most fanboyish silliness that can possibly be conceived. I'm not ordinarily bothered by the silly "science" of the show, but there's just so much shit in this story that I start to notice how dumb the premise is. How can 27 planets power a doomsday device that can destroy EVERY UNIVERSE? What happens to the Moon now that the Earth is gone? Wouldn't the amount of energy it would take to teleport the planets to their positions be more than the planets themselves could possibly generate? How are the Daleks going to survive with no resources? What exactly is their plan? How does the Reality Bomb WORK? You can tell a story sucks when I'm so disinterested that I start asking these questions.
The overstuffed nature of the plot means that none of the dramatic arcs that RTD wants to have resolved really get the time they deserve. The "I have shown you your true self" scene doesn't get a chance to develop. The metacrisis causes two stories to get resolved in the most contrived way possible. "Um…here, Rose, have a half-human clone of myself who doesn't have a time machine. Now piss off!" Donna's is even dumber – instead of giving her an actual, plausible reason to leave, they just say that because she's half-Time Lord, she has to forget the Doctor and can never see him again. We would have believed this episode just as much (or just as little) if instead of not being able to remember or think of the Doctor again, her being half-Time Lord meant that she could never see or remember her parents again.
This isn't goofy technobabble to advance the plot – this is goofy technobabble INSTEAD of a plot.
And subtext? There's almost none to speak of. That's virtually unheard of in an RTD story.
What makes it worse is that I know that RTD is so much better than this. I mean, the dude wrote "Children of Earth." He's written great things before, and will continue to write great things after. But good God, was this one a stinker.
I mean, I LIKE NEW WHO – I'm not one of those depressing sadfans who mopes about the Leisure Hive and whines about how much better the Classic Series was. But I hate, hate, hate this story.
Sorry if this seems angry or over-the-top – I just really felt the need to vent about this.
I didn't read this, I just wanted to say THANK YOU FOR THE WARNING. I wish people would give warnings like that before every rant they gave. BIG UPVOTES.
Pretty much this, thank you. The finale I liked the absolute least of the NuSeries.
Kasper has informed me that the name of Bad Wolf Bay is some of the poorest usage of Norwegian he has ever seen. Instead, it’s translation is more like, “Beach of the Wolf Who Is Rather Shite At Being A Wolf.”
THAT IS AMAZING AND KASPER IS AMAZING AND I LAUGHED SO LOUD AT THIS!!!!!!
Okay so, I rather like Handy, but I didn't like how the episode made it seem like Rose didn't have a choice in the matter. SO I FIXED THAT: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5407038/1/Sunlight# (it's brief. my attention span is very sh–
After ALL THE TEARS FOREVER for Mockingjay, and NOW THIS?!
UGH.
Seriously though, ALL I wanted, desperately, with all of my heart, was for Ten to be able to somehow make Donna's mind use the same "bigger on the inside" tech as the tardis. Or maybe even upload her to the tardis. If her brain was bigger on the inside *sniff* then she *sniff* wouldn't have to *sniff* gooooo! *wail wail wail*
Journey's end. What can I say about you. Two parts epic one part cheesy half a part heartwarming and ALL THE TRAGEDY. I have a lot of thoughts that I'm going to write in the replies that might make me seem like a cynic or a partypooper or something, but I want to say now that I do sincerely like this finale, that when I watched it last night I laughed and cried and enjoyed myself. But just because I love something doesn't mean I can't pick at it, right?
The DoctorDonna is awesome and I want her to exist forever. Rusty is up to Whedon levels of bastardom here! I understand her fate as good tragedy, and I think I'd be a lot more okay with it if it were just her story- but it's not. The thing about all of the companions so far is that instead of being their own story in and of themselves, they seem to be more part of the Doctor's. And it's not that I want the Doctor to just up and let his companions leave with out an ounce of his own reaction in the mix, but the way Martha is used for the majority of the series by the Doctor combined with the lack of agency in both Rose's and Donna's departures- both decisions make by the Doctor this time around- Donna's story just becomes part of the Doctor's story, and her tragedy is not just her own, and I do not like that.
Handy is totally weird, Mark. At first watching I kept wondering what was with Tennant's acting choice there- making him wear that big stupid grin every other shot. Was it just to differentiate him from the Doctor? Was he supposed to be echoing Eccleston's manic grin? I didn't like this ending for Rose the first time I saw it, shelved it away in my brain for a while, but watching again it still makes me uncomfortable. First off, Ten + Donna does not Nine make, and maybe I'm forgetting- but it seemed to me from the very beginning meeting Rose Nine was already a great deal more compassionate (and less genocidal) than Handy. I don't think those two are going to work out.
And my biggest point of contention for this episode, is surprisingly not the science of dragging the earth through space. 8|
I once again think that Ten is being criticized for the wrong things. The whole premise is that all his companions turn into soldiers, or rather he turns them into soldiers, but all of their actions in this episode are a result of the Dalek threat. It's not that all his old friends are off killing every alien they come across- it's that they know from their experiences with the Doctor that Daleks are a Big Fucking Deal, and will probably wipe them out if they try a more pacifist approach. I also don't think their violence is a result of being with the Doctor, I think it's that quality of humanity, the fight in humans to survive that the Doctor himself comments on from time to time that influence their actions. None of them are blindly obeying the Doctor as a soldier would do- I mean, the fact that they showed up with massive weapons kind of disproves that. They're showing independent thinking and ingenuity, which are perhaps qualities of a good fighter or a good leader, but not really the defining traits of soldiers. They do not serve the Doctor, they turn to him for his help like anyone sensible would do. What better specialist could you get to handle a Dalek infestation? The Doctor has made himself protector of earth, but that doesn't mean any human that fights for the same cause is automatically fighting for him or under him. It's a dark and powerful accusation for Davros (and RTD) to make, and it would be really cool if it were true, but I don't think it is. Once again, I think there are plenty of things that the Doctor does in this incarnation, in other incarnations, and across all his regenerations that are dark and possibly wrong and perfectly fine to criticize. I would even say the "making soldiers" thing might fit some of his other incarnations (I think saying who would be a spoiler, even though it's in the past), but not this one. This is a doctor who is so full of ego he'd rather do everything himself, if he could. The fact that his companions have risen up to make their own significant contributions as so-called "soldiers" is in some ways in spite of him, not because of him.
This is a great point. That part struck me as ringing false, but I couldn't really pick apart my thoughts on the matter. Brilliantly put.
I thought handy realized quite early on what was going to happen since he is as smart as the Doctor and was just rather pleased about it. Also, remember Ten in season 2 was quite the chirpy character and Ten 2 mirrors that.
I don't think anyone's posted them yet, so I thought I'd share David's video diaries for these finale episodes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nifPibCJvQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9-K_UkBp-M
I really love the video diaries because you can see that they're all friends and they all laugh and it's nice. I'd say the best parts are 1:30 (John comments about how old he's getting and Noel tries to make him feel better) and 3:38 (Davros is a DJ) in part one and 0:43 (Liz talks about the past) and 1:47 (this part is hilarious, David, Billie, Catherine, and John in night vision in a car) in part two.
Oh god the night vision car bit. I WILL NEVER NOT LOVE THAT.
"CAPTAIN JACK ATTACK"
"YOU JUST POOED YOURSELF DIDN'T YOU"
"I THOUGHT IT WAS A TERRORIST"
Those two look very old for 5. 😉
I love Donna. She remains my favorite New Who companion by far – tough and funny, compassionate and smart, loud and pragmatic. Seriously, I can't overstate how great she was. The wave upon wave of BS coming from Ten's general direction in his first two seasons filled me with bitterness, and Donna dispelled it all almost immediately upon boarding the TARDIS. With her, Ten finally felt like a hero I could root for. With her, I could just relax when I was watching the show. Season 4 only has one all-time amazing episode in it ("Midnight"), but it was the most fun I had with Doctor Who since the moment when Ten betrayed Harriet Jones.
And then RTD had her mind-raped for no good reason. Seriously, WTF was that about, Davies, except your angst cravings? What did it have to do with Donna's story? Where did it fit into her arc? Oh, that's right: It fucking well didn't. It was bullshit, all the way through, and an unforgivable ending for an amazing character.
Donna was great because she asked for her her own salute. She demanded respect – to be treated as Donna Noble and not the Doctor's accessory, to stand with him and not just next to him, to share his burdens as well as his triumphs. And when the Doctor gave her these things, he became better for it – more considerate, more kind, more willing to admit fault. The DoctorDonna was greater than the sum of its parts, and as sweet and wonderful a friendship as I've ever seen on TV. And more to the point, Donna's time in the TARDIS was about building up her fragile self-respect. Her accomplishments and the Doctor's emotional support (as opposed to her mother's constant putdowns) built her up, gave her strength, and empowered her.
So again, what was the fucking point of ripping that all away? I mean, I respect the hell out of RTD's writing ability, but if he thought that was tragic, he was dead wrong. Tragedy is when someone creates their own demise. Donna had no power, no agency, and no choices past "Turn Left". She was a victim of circumstance, the exact opposite of the feisty, go-getter Donna of the rest of the season. And it was bullshit.
But wait! There's so much more to hate about this finale! It's completely overstuffed and made even more incomprehensible by Tennant's garbled speech, it includes everyone and does justice to no one, and oh yes: Rose. Who somehow managed to become even more annoying after she supposedly left the show. Rose, who poked holes in interdimensional walls with a freaking cannon not to save the universe, but to find her precious Doctor. Really, RTD? REALLY? Years of separation from him, all those opportunities to grow and become her own woman, and she spends it all pining for her alien non-boyfriend? Fuck that noise, seriously. Rose annoyed the crap out of me in these episodes and her ending was incredibly fucking creepy and awful, and that's all I'm going to say about that.
"Journey's End" is like a cowpat stuck on top of the delicious chocolate cake that is S4. It's bad shit happening for the sake of cheap nihilism, and a complete betrayal of what made the season good in the first place: Its depiction of a deep, loving friendship. S4 just…didn't have a story. Oh, it had repeating themes that came up again in the finale, but the ending didn't feel like something built on their foundation. After the fine arc work of S3, that was a massive disappointment. Donna Noble's ending didn't suck because it was sad – it sucked because it didn't come from anything she did or said – it didn't have a why. And that's shitty storytelling.
I don't necessarily disagree with your view, but I have an issue with this:
Tragedy is when someone creates their own demise.
Um…no, it's not? I think all of your other points are pretty spot on, but yeah. Tragedy can happen to people with agency or no agency.
I'm sorry; that was indeed badly stated. Classical Athenian tragedy usually has that moment of hamartia when the king or hero makes the fatal choice that dooms him, and that's what was running through my brain when I wrote that sentence.
But I do stand by my view that Donna's fate wasn't tragic. It was awful, yes, but because it wasn't because or her or about her or about a specific way in which the world is shitty – because it was just pain for the sake of pain – it wasn't tragic to me. Tragedy, for me, has to be bigger and deeper than just piling on the suffering.
What's really annoying is that it's Ten who by all rights should be the Greek-derived tragic hero – he's the king who rails against destiny, death, and the other limitations of the universe – but it's his companions who keep getting punished.
I definitely agree. It just didn't feel organic to her arc at all, but pasted on for ratings or something. Definitely pain for the sake of pain, which is unfortunately something RTD is guilty of too often. 🙁
You get my last pre-Lent Cadbury creme egg for using hamartia.
#classicsftw
Also, how sad is it that the TARDIS was designed for multiple pilots? Every time the Doctor has to dash around and press buttons and pull levers and watch twelve gauges at once, he's doing the work of eight dead Time Lords.
In all fairness, he's not doing the work of dead pilots, so much as doing the work of missing pilots who weren't on board when he nicked the motor in the first place…
Fair point 🙂
*Warning, I get a little bit personal. Feel free to skip*
The scene with 10.5 and Donna was one of the hardest scenes for me to watch in all of NuWho. I seem to identify with Donna a little bit too much, when it comes to self esteem. I'm 4 years ahead in math, so I tend to be identified as "the sophomore in AP Calc" by most of my grade and many of my teachers. I am pretty socially awkward (hence the spending copious amounts of time on the internet), and I've never really been athletic. Anything I do artistically that I'm proud of tends to be outshined by my brother, who got a scholarship to one of the best art schools in the country. Whenever I don't have an A, therefore, I tend to get really down on myself. I mean, I know that there are other good things about me, but sometimes it seems like school is really the only thing I'm good at. When I have even a B, I feel like I'm not even good at that, and it gets me really down, but I can't really complain to any of my friends. Whenever I say anything about it, they act like I'm just fishing for compliments. So when 10.5 says that she really believes she isn't great and she gets really upset, I identify with her so much that it becomes really difficult for me to watch.
When Donna's memory gets wiped, I cried so hard that I literally had to pause the video because I couldn't hear it over my sobs. Even worse than that, though, was when The Doctor sees her afterward and she's acting just like she did before she met him in TRB. Ugh, so heartbreaking. We always talk about how she made the Doctor better, which is completely true, but he really made her better as well.
On a much lighter note, Trock linkies!
Exterminate, Regenerate:
This song literally got me into Doctor Who. I heard it, and decided to finally check out this show that people talked about so much. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKK-yIrMNUg
An Awful Lot of Running:
This is another great one. I would have posted it earlier, but it does have a mild spoiler, so I waited. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAi4izfvXo4
Sorry if people had posted those links before! I didn't think I saw them when I looked through, but I might have missed it!
Yes, those Chameleon Circuit songs are COMPLETELY EPIC. I listen to them all the time. Exterminate Regenerate in particular is just SO GOOD in every way that songs based on something like Doctor Who should be.
Have you seen his ukulele version of it? Yes. I said ukulele version. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKK-yIrMNUg
I'm not going to lie, I like the uke version better than the regular version.
I think I like the regular one better but I do LOVE the ukulele one.