Mark Watches ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’: S03E17 – Enemies

In the seventeenth episode of the third season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Faith finally decides it is time to face her former adversaries and enact the Mayor’s plan to destroy Buffy Summers. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to watch Buffy.

I feel like this show has entered another plane of existence. Like, this whole run of episodes has been entirely serial, beautifully written and acted, and intensely joyful to watch. That’s not to say that everything that came before this was awful or anything! I’ve had a lot of fun watching Buffy and I’m certainly at a point where these characters are firmly attached the emotional center of my brain. But it took the show until the third season to hit all the right buttons for me in terms of the kind fiction that I enjoy. Character growth, dark humor, moral ambiguity, the search for identity, and the deconstruction of the archetypes and roles that the show set up over two seasons are some of the things I’ve come to love about what Buffy is doing.

I really can’t believe that I once thought that Buffy was a fluffy or disposable show. I know the fact that it was on the WB was one of the things I held against it, but I couldn’t really accept that this show was as good as people said it was. It is a beautiful thing in this case to be so utterly wrong. The show is anything but what I thought it was. The one thing I didn’t expect the most? How utterly unsettling the stories on this show can be. I think “Enemies” is disturbing in a psychological way. We’ve seen some gross things or perturbing images, but this one eats away at a character I think a lot of us like a great deal. It’s hard to watch someone you care about give up on being a good person. (And for the record, I’m not saying I dislike the character of Faith. If anything, I’m utterly fascinated by her turn and I’m very pleased with how the show is executing it.)

I also just want to devote an entire paragraph to this thought: Bless Harry Groener and his hilarious portrayal of Mayor Wilkins. Who knew that pure evil could be so chipper? That contrast between his germaphobe, high-energy self and the things he enacts in Sunnydale is just downright genius. On top of that, this episode gives us a huge chunk of his backstory, namely that he’s over a hundred years old and CREATED SUNNYDALE’S HELLMOUTH. (At least that’s how I interpreted Faith’s line. Oh god, what if I’m wrong? OH GOD I WILL BE SO EMBARRASSED.)

I think a lot of the tension in this episode, though, is derived from trying to figure out the character’s intentions. We’re introduced to a nameless demon (who’s kind of adorable, no?) that claims to have the Books of Ascension, something Mayor Wilkins will need for something? I’m sure it’s related to the “ascending” he referenced when speaking to Mr. Trick. How this cute demon got the books is beyond me, and I don’t think it was a part of the long con enacted by the Scoobies. I suppose that’s not important. What’s important is that after Faith murders the demon in a deeply fucked up scene, she goes to Angel for support. I don’t think Faith is the best liar, so I agree with Giles on that. But multiple times during Faith’s first scene with Angel, I kept wondering if what we were seeing was genuine. Was she truly disturbed by her own penchant for violence? Up until she left and we immediately saw her with the Mayor, I wondered if we really were going to get a redemption story for Faith.

I believe the long con that Giles sets up happens right after this scene, especially since it makes no sense for Buffy to act surprised after walking in on Faith being affectionate with Angel. Does this mean that Buffy immediately told Giles what was going on? If so, BRAVO. FINALLY, YOU KIDS DO THE BEST POSSIBLE THING IMAGINABLE. I suppose it was then that Giles contacted that weird ninja-looking spirit to fool the Mayor and test Faith’s allegiance, which would also mean that Angel had to have suspected that Faith was lying when she came to him for comfort. So, basically, once you think about it, most of the characters in this episode made nothing but good decisions for once. This is shocking to me! I JUST FEEL SO PROUD OF EVERYONE.

I had a review planned in my head to talk about the idea of jealousy in a relationship, since that seemed to be what Buffy was experiencing, but the end sort of negates that point. They both knew it was all an act. But I didn’t catch on until Angel revealed it, and it’s the strength of “Enemies.” I believed that Angel lost his soul. I believed that he was on board with torturing Buffy. I believed that EVERYTHING WAS A GODDAMN DISASTER. I mean, how could it not be? Seriously, in that scene where Angel “lost” his soul, I just wanted to curl up into a ball and never watch this show again. HE JUST GOT HIS SOUL BACK. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME? WON’T YOU THINK OF THE CHILDREN? Though, to be honest, I really like David Boreanaz’s portrayal of Angelus, so there was a part of me that was excited to get him back. IT WAS A VERY SMALL PART, I’LL HAVE YOU KNOW. JUST VERY SMALL. LIKE 10%. OR MAYBE 45% OF ME, I DON’T KNOW.

I don’t know that I would say this episode is Faith-centric, but it certainly revealed a lot more about her than I expected. I’m inclined to believe her admission about her childhood life; there’s no reason for Faith to make up a story about her neglectful, alcoholic mother. She’s definitely not lying about feeling inadequate living in the shadow of Buffy. It’s not a massive, game-changing backstory, but it’s just another piece of her character’s motivational history. We know that Faith has trust issues, and we know she has a violent streak of independence. I think what’s going to be interesting to see is how Faith responds to being duped. Like, for real, could you imagine a worse thing to do to someone who doesn’t innately trust people than to con them for days? WHOOPS.

We have a lot that’s set up at the end of the episode, too. We now know that graduation day is going to play a huge part in the season finale, or at least I’m guessing that. Each season has dealt with the end of the school year, so I don’t imagine they’ll rush to that before we finish the third season. We know that Mayor Wilkins has been around a whole lot longer than we thought, and that whatever he’s planning is going to be horrifyingly destructive. OH GOD WHAT. Wesley and Giles are slowly becoming more comfortable with one another, and I’m really enjoying the dual team of Watchers. Can Wesley not die? I hate even typing that because I know that it’s basically a death sentence, but I like him a lot. UGH I ALREADY REGRET SAYING THAT, BUT WHATEVER.

But we also have Buffy requesting that she take a break after watching Angel have to basically woo someone Buffy isn’t a big fan of. I totally get this, and I’m glad Angel agrees. It’s quite reasonable of him. Of course, they have to throw in that line of, “You still my girl?” “Always.” And then I just break and I hate that these two can’t be together and WHYYYYYYY.

One more thought: If the Scoobies graduate at the end of season three, what the fuck is this show going to do in season four??? This is a show about high school. Do they all go to different colleges? No college? What the fuck?

About Mark Oshiro

Perpetually unprepared since '09.
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360 Responses to Mark Watches ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’: S03E17 – Enemies

  1. One of My Favorite Buffy Moments

    Faith: What can I say? I'm the world's best actor.
    Angel: Second best.

    Foreshadowing from "Consequences"

    Giles: She may have many talents, Buffy, but fortunately, lying is not one of them.

    In conclusion, Faith is a terrible liar and Giles is always right.

  2. One of My Favorite Buffy Moments

    Faith: What can I say? I'm the world's best actor.
    Angel: Second best.

    Foreshadowing from "Consequences"

    Giles: She may have many talents, Buffy, but fortunately, lying is not one of them.

    In conclusion, Faith is a terrible liar and Giles is always right.

    I don’t think Faith is the best liar, so I agree with Giles on that.
    Mark is also always right.

    Wait, no, he's sometimes right and usually hilariously wrong.

    • tanbarkie says:

      Faith: What can I say? I'm the world's best actor.
      Angel: Second best.

      Oh, honey. You've come a long, long way from season 1, but you're not THAT good. Not as long as you keep doing your Irish accent that way.

      • Jenny_M says:

        "Oi, whit de ye meoin boi that, lass/lad?" – David B's Oirish accent.

        • sirintegra42 says:

          The worst thing is how he occasionally slips into a slightly Irish, sorry, Oirish accent in some scenes like he's just remembered he's supposed to be Irish. Just ignore it David, you're much better without it. Although saying that I have no idea why Angelus somehow sounds more American than Angel does generally, hmmm.

    • DreamRose311 says:

      May I say something?


      Everything this scene. Just everything. This is one of my all time favorite episodes, maybe on this scene alone.

    • Mary Sue says:

      In conclusion, Faith is a terrible liar and Giles is always right.

      Except when he's wrong, he's very, very wrong.

      (In all the right ways ILU RIPPER 4-EVAAAAA!!!!!!)

      (Dear God I'm *that* fangirl today.)
      (I'm kind of OK with that.)

    • anissa says:

      Oh god, that moment! That reveal! Especially if you didn't know the first time around! This was basically the best thing ever!!

  3. enigmaticagentscully says:




    Oh my god, I feel like the most stupid of all stupids. I was completely and utterly 100% convinced that Angel had turned evil again. I was staring at the screen in horror yelling things like:
    ‘My god, that guy’s soul is like a FREAKING YO-YO.”
    ‘They’re gonna have to install a bloody REVOLVING DOOR IN HEAVEN for him alone!’

    You know how I said if I ever met Joss Whedon I’d like to punch him in the face? Well I think I might have to amend that to ‘punch him in the face then shake him firmly by the hand’. Just…I never see these things coming! just as he will never see my fist coming towards his face mwahahahaha

    Elsewhere, the mayor is kind of sweet to Faith? I mean, he seems to have genuine affection for her and it’s all weirdly adorable. But it kind of makes me apprehensive because he’s gonna have to be killed at the end of this season, right? If he isn’t then it’s gonna be a very short show. But then Faith will be really upset! She’s finally found someone who appreciates her for who she is (which admittedly is a scary homicidal person) and if he’s defeated it’s not exactly gonna help. Right now I’m leaning towards Faith being the Big Bad of season four, to be honest.

    In other news, I really like how Giles seems to be loosening up a bit with Wesley’s presence and being kicked out of the Watchers. He’s started to wear jackets a lot less as well, I’ve noticed. I miss the tweedyness, but I do have a certain penchant for rumpled!Giles.
    Also, he introduced that demon guy to his wife. Who else wants to hear that story? At this point I am utterly perplexed as to why this show isn’t just called ‘GILES, plus a bunch of other people.’

    Also also, he ate a banana, and in light of a brief conversation we had about Discworld the other day, this was really hilarious to me. It’s clearly a Librarian thing.
    Actually…my mum’s a librarian and she eats bananas ALL THE TIME. Damn, I think I’m really on to something here!
    Is this the source of a librarian’s power??

    • clockworkmonk says:

      I always believed the source of power for librarians was whiskey. Mainly because every librarian I know, my dad included, really like whiskey.

    • LucyGoosey says:

      You know how I said if I ever met Joss Whedon I’d like to punch him in the face? Well I think I might have to amend that to ‘punch him in the face then shake him firmly by the hand’.

      I think a lot of his fans would agree with you there.

      I really agree about Faith and the Mayor. I really get the feeling that this, a strong loving parental figure, may have been exactly what she needed in her life to thrive. Had her Watcher been as good as GIles, and you know, not died, it may have seriously helped her.

    • Ryan Lohner says:

      One of my favorite parts of this season is how it's clear that the Mayor and Faith have a genuine love for each other. Just like the Malfoys, it makes us think about how even evil people need that kind of thing.

    • virtual_monster says:

      You know how I said if I ever met Joss Whedon I’d like to punch him in the face? Well I think I might have to amend that to ‘punch him in the face then shake him firmly by the hand’.

      Given that many of his fans may feel (and act) similarly, I suggest you punch him in the hand and then shake him firmly by the face. He'll never see that coming.

      • enigmaticagentscully says:

        Ok, the mental image of me shaking Joss Whedon firmly by the face is unendingly hilarious to me.

        How would that even work? Would I just have to like…attack him with my hand like an Alien facehugger? And then sort of…wibble it violently back and forth? Why am I even giving thought to this?

        • sirintegra42 says:

          That comment reminded me of David Mitchell's comment about bullying on QI and how to really creep you out they would go to hit you and then stroke your face instead :). Now that would be the way to really punish him. Leave him fearing for his life and then never actually carry it out. Then again that may be a little bit too cruel even though he is an evil genius.

          • UnstrungZero says:

            LOL I love that moment on QI. He was saying that Stephen Fry's habit of making a question seem wrong and then saying "Yes! It was that easy!" was like someone coming at you to punch you and actually just nicely stroking you. Severely distressing. *giggles* QI is only the best thing ever.

      • Mocha says:

        Oh my goodness. The image of Joss Whedon being punched in the face and then shaken by the hand had me cracking up mentally, and now the image of his being hand-punched and face-shaken is making me cackle happily at my laptop. My roommate keeps sneaking concerned/slightly terrified glances at me.

        "At this point I am utterly perplexed as to why this show isn’t just called ‘GILES, plus a bunch of other people.’"


        • enigmaticagentscully says:

          That would be the best spinoff ever. Also, the most vaguely premised, and yet straightforwardly named.

          STUFF happens!
          THINGS are said!

          Find out why on the next episode of 'GILES, plus a bunch of other people'.

    • rabbitape says:

      This comment is utterly charming, and it makes me wish I had the power to set up a tête à tête for you and Joss Whedon.

    • SelphieFairy says:

      Also also, he ate a banana, and in light of a brief conversation we had about Discworld the other day, this was really hilarious to me. It’s clearly a Librarian thing.

      In one of the commentaries I think it was mentioned that Anthony Head is very adamant about characters not "just talking," which happens a lot in television shows, where people just kind of stand in front of each other and talk back and forth. it's completely unrealistic if you think about it. It also probably doesn't help that he's usually the exposition guy. Hence, he is always licking a lollipop or eating a banana, and always always cleaning his glasses. πŸ˜€

    • Carrie Ann says:

      Basically everything in this comment is adorable and I love it. I would watch 'GILES plus a bunch of other people' for infinity seasons. Giles is the clearly the best.

    • innocentsmith says:

      Faith and the Mayor’s relationship is, to me, one of the most interesting in the entire show. It would have been really easy for the writers to have it be skeevily sexual, or just your basic minion/boss bad guy setup, but instead they genuinely seem to be good for each other. And that adds such an unexpected depth to both of their characters. I love them.

    • spotshouse says:

      I know I am home when someone is speculating on the source of librarian power! Just had to say that. πŸ™‚

    • farwell3d says:

      See, now, I just learned a few days ago that eating a banana implies certain things, at least in Tulsa, OK. You'll have to ask Mark about what, though…

    • UnstrungZero says:

      Also, he introduced that demon guy to his wife. Who else wants to hear that story? At this point I am utterly perplexed as to why this show isn’t just called ‘GILES, plus a bunch of other people.’


  4. Seventh_Star says:

    "torture buffy. killing her's fine, just make it a slow one…we don't want a replacement slayer any time soon."

    so, i'm of the firm opinion that, should buffy die again, another slayer would not be called. there were never meant to be two slayers.

    buffy died, so kendra was called.
    kendra died, so faith was called.
    as far as the slayer line is concerned, buffy is already dead.

    should faith die, then, yes another slayer would be called, but not until then.

    guvf vf onpxrq hc va frnfba svir jura ohssl qvrf naq ab bgure fynlre vf npgvingrq. ohg va frnfba frira eban (n cbgragvny) zragvbaf gung abar bs gur tveyf jvyy unir nal cbjref hayrff ohssl qvrf, naq ab bar pbeerpgf ure. ubjrire, vg jbhyq or snvgu gung unf gb qvr sbe bar bs gur cbgragvnyf gb or pnyyrq. gurer ner bgure qvfpercnapvrf va gur frevrf, ohg guvf bar ernyyl obguref zr.


    • etherealclarity says:

      Gur bssvpvny pnaba vf gung gur fynlre yvar abj ehaf jvgu Snvgu, fb vg jbhyq gnxr Snvgu qlvat gb unir nabgure fynlre pnyyrq, naq Ohssl qlvat jbhyq unir ab rssrpg.

      Eban'f yvar vf bayl zrnag gb vaqvpngr – V'z nffhzvat – ubj pbashfvat vg vf naq ubj znlor gur bssvpvny pnaba vfa'g rknpgyl 100% xabja ol gur punenpgref… gurl'er nyy bayl thrffvat.

    • guest_age says:

      I agree with you. In my opinion, I've always interpreted it as Buffy died, so the next Slayer was called. Kendra became THE Slayer, aka the Official Slayer, or whatever you want to term it. Buffy was the "extra" who happened to also be able to slay. When Kendra died, Faith was called, making her THE Slayer.

      Agreed with your Rot13'd bit, too.

    • Mez says:

      Agreed. I think Faith is "the" Slayer – Buffy just still happens to have Slayer powers.

      Nyfb, V guvax jura Ohssl trgf erfheerpgrq, Jvyybj gheaf ure vagb "gur" Fynlre. NF JRYY NF SNVGU. Fb gurer ner gjb Fynlref, obgu orvat "gur" Fynlre, naq gung'f jul guvatf ner nyy hafgnoyr rabhtu sbe gur Svefg gb gel jvcvat bhg gur Fynlre yvar.

      Be cbffvoyl V'z bireguvaxvat guvf…

      • cait0716 says:

        Vg'f vagrerfgvat gung lbh zragvba Snvgu vf "gur" fynlre, orpnhfr V guvax n ovt puhax bs ure vqragvgl vffhrf fgrz sebz gur snpg gung Ohssl vf nyjnlf "gur" fynlre. Snvgu vf gur bgure fynlre. Ohssl trgf gb or va punetr naq znxr cynaf naq gnxr cbvag. Fur trgf gur jngpure naq gur sevraqf naq gur cenvfr. Snvgu trgf gb fvg va ure funqbj naq gnxr beqref naq abg ernyyl or pbafvqrerq

        • Seventh_Star says:

          whfg nabgure bs gur znal ernfbaf gung snvgu'f punenpgre vf fb gentvp πŸ™

          v'z cnencuenfvat, ohg vg nyjnlf xvyyf zr va gur frnfba 7 rcvfbqr jurer snvgu vf ubyqvat gur fplgur naq fnlf fbzrguvat yvxr "vg srryf yvxr vg'f zvar…fb, gung zhfg zrna vg'f lbhef."

          • ghostofdurruti says:

            Naq gura, qhevat gur svany onggyr, Ohssl cnffrf gur Fplgur gb Snvgu. :Q

            • KatieHal says:

              V ybir gur ribyhgvba bs gurve eryngvbafuvc. Rira va gur Frnfba 8 naq 9 pbzvpf, gurl'er arire crbcyr jub srry yvxr gurve shyyl ba rira, arhgeny tebhaq. Snvgu nyjnlf srryf yvxr Ohssl vf "gur" Fynlre naq npprcgrq ol rirelbar gb or gur "orggre" bs gur gjb; Ohssl jvyy nyjnlf or jvyyvat gb oryvrir gung Snvgu pbhyq ghea ba gurz nyy ntnva.

              Vg ernyyl vf gentvp jura lbh jngpu Frnfba 3 naq ernyvmr ubj pybfr gurl pbhyq'ir orra, ohg arire jvyy or.

          • UnstrungZero says:

            LRF, rira gubhtu V'z abg nf znffvir n Snvgu sna nf bguref ner, gung yvar FGVYY znxrf zr whfg jnaan uht ure. Nzbat bgure guvatf V nyernql jnaan qb jvgu ure. :K

        • _Bailey_ says:

          Lbh xabj, V gnxr Snvgu'f fcrrpu guvf rcvfbqr nf fnlvat RKNPGYL GUVF.

          Nyfb, gurer'f gung yvar va "Raq bs Qnlf" jurer Snvgu fnlf, "Gurer'f bayl fhccbfrq gb or bar. Znlor gung'f jul lbh naq V pna arire trg nybat. Jr'er abg fhccbfrq gb rkvfg gbtrgure."

          V guvax bar bs Snvgu'f vffhrf jvgu Ohssl vf gung Snvgu jnf fhccbfrq gb or gur fcrpvny bar, ohg gurer vf Ohssl orvat fcrpvny svefg, naq nppbeqvat gb gur Fpbbovrf qbvat vg orggre guna Snvgu. Ohg Ohssl fubhyq or qrnq; Snvgu fubhyqa'g unir nal pbzcrgvgvba. Ohg fur qbrf, naq gurer ner gurfr gjb nycun srznyrf gelvat gb trg nybat, ohg gurl ner fb qvssrerag va gurve crefbanyvgvrf naq cuvybfbcuvrf gung vg qbrfa'g jbex. Ng gur fnzr gvzr, obgu ner vaperqvoyl fgebat naq fghoobea naq fher gurl ner evtug. Gurl ner obgu gbb qvssrerag naq gbb fvzvyne gb rire trg nybat.

          V guvax "Onq Tveyf" jnf gur uvtu cbvag bs gurve eryngvbafuvc va gur trggvat-nybat cunfr (ng yrnfg guvf frnfba — V jvyy nyjnlf unir n fbsg fcbg sbe gurve "ubg puvpxf jvgu fhcrecbjref" qvfphffvba va F7), orpnhfr Snvgu jnf vasyhrapvat Ohssl zber guna hfhny. Ohssl jnf jvyyvat gb tb n yvggyr ovg qnex fvqr naq fgnegrq gb rzoenpr Snvgu'f cuvybfbcul. Vs fur unq tbar nyy gur jnl gurer, vg zvtug abg unir orra na vffhr. Ohg orpnhfr fur eriregf gb sbez nsgre Snvgu xvyyf gur qrchgl znlbe, n punfz bcraf orgjrra gurz naq gurl fgneg erfvfgvat naq svtugvat rnpu bgure ntnva.

      • @Ivana2804 says:

        She doesn't just "happen" to have Slayer powers – she's the Slayer because she has experience and skill, she's already saved the world twice, and she continues to fight the good fight. Who the Slayer line runs through makes no difference.

        • Mez says:

          …what's your point?

          I'm saying that, if Buffy died, no new Slayer would be called, because the "official" Slayer (mystically speaking) is now Faith.

          Yeah, Buffy's awesome, but what on earth does it have to do with this discussion?

    • DreamRose311 says:

      Jryy V guvax gur cbvag vf gung gur punenpgref qba'g xabj gur nafjre. Vg'f xvaq bs na hacerprqragrq guvat, fb ab bar unf n obbx jvgu na nafjre fnlvat 'vs lbh qvr naq pbzr onpx, lbh'er bhg bs gur yvar, fb qlvat ntnva jba'g pnyy nabgure fynlre'.

      • magpie says:

        Unun, npghnyyl jura V jnf svefg jngpuvat vg, V gubhtug gung Ohssl'f fbyhgvba gb qrsrngvat gur svefg jnf gb unir ure naq Snvgu qvr naq pbzr onpx gb yvsr haqre fbzr pbagebyyrq pvephzfgnaprf fb gung gurl pbhyq znxr nyy gur cbgragvnyf fynlref.

        … Boivbhfyl jung unccrarq va gur fubj jnf n zvyyvba gvzrf orggre.

    • Noybusiness says:

      I think that's true, but the characters can't be sure of it.

    • magpie says:

      Bu, gung’f npghnyyl na vagrerfgvat cbvag er: ab bar orvat pnyyrq nsgre Ohssl’f qrngu. V unq orra fpengpuvat zl urnq bire gung sbe n juvyr, naq V svaq gung fngvfsnpgbel.

      V nterr gung gurer jrer fbzr qvfpercnapvrf naq nfxrq crbcyr gb pynevsl guvf zhygvcyr gvzrf tvira gur pbashfvba fheebhaqvat gur cbgragvnyf. Ng yrnfg gurl qba’g unir gb jbeel nobhg gung nalzber! Gubhtu nabgure dhrfgvba gung pbashfrq zr sbe fbzr gvzr vf: jung vf gur rknpg ntr enatr gung vf nssrpgrq ol gur cbgragvnyf nyy orpbzvat fynlref? Jbhyq nal tvey qrfgvarq gb orpbzr n fynlre unir gur cbjref ng ovegu? Be vf vg n 15-24 ntr enatr be fbzr fhpu? V zrna jr fnj gur tvey ng gur onfronyy tnzr tnva fynlre cbjref, ohg vf gung gur obggbz bs gur ntr enatr? FB ZNAL DHRFGVBAF.

      • Seventh_Star says:

        v guvax vg jbhyq cebonoyl or NALBAR jub jnf n cbgragvny, ohg, gura guvaxvat nobhg onovrf jvgu fhcre fgeratgu vf xvaq bs qvfgheovat. ohg nyfb uvynevbhf.

      • stormwreath says:

        Season 8 spoilers;

        Nsgre 'Pubfra', Cbgragvnyf orpbzr Fynlref ng fbzr cbvag qhevat gurve choregl/grraf; gurl qba'g unir cbjref orsber gura (rkprcg znlor gur cebcurgvp qernzf; gung cneg vf hapyrne).

        Va bar pbzvp (jevggra ol Wnar Rfcrafba) jr fnj n Cbgragvny npghnyyl orpbzvat n Fynlre ba ure fvkgrragu oveguqnl, gubhtu gung znl or pbvapvqragny.

        Zl bja vagrecergngvba vf gung n tvey pna or Pnyyrq ng nal gvzr orgjrra uvggvat choregl naq jura fur ernpurf ure shyy nqhyg qrirybczrag. Fb onfvpnyyl nal gvzr sebz 12/13 gb 18/19 be fb, jvgu na nirentr va gur zvqqyr bs gur enatr ng 15/16. Orsber gung vg'f gbb rneyl, nsgrejneqf vg'f gbb yngr.

        • Seventh_Star says:

          znxrf frafr. v unir lrg gb ernq nyy bs frnfba 8, gubhtu v qba'g zvaq fcbvyvat zlfrys, boivbhfyl πŸ™‚

      • cait0716 says:

        V trarenyyl nffhzrq lbh pbhyq or pnyyrq va gur 14-18 ntr enatr. Gur Pbhapvy jnagf n tvey gurl pna pbageby, abg n jbzna tebja. Ohg gurl nyfb arrq fbzrbar fgebat rabhtu gb npghnyyl svtug inzcverf, fb zhpu lbhatre vf cebonoyl bhg bs gur dhrfgvba. Xraarql zragvbaf gung fur guvaxf fur zvtug or trggvat gbb byq, naq V graq gb chg ure ntr ng nobhg gjragl orpnhfr bs ure jubyr eryngvbafuvc jvgu Jvyybj, abg gung guvf fubj pnerf zhpu nobhg ntr bs pbafrag. Fgvyy, fur'f pyrneyl bar bs gur byqre cbgragvnyf. Ohg V nyfb nterr jvgu Friragu_Fgne gung lbh'er fgvyy n cbgragvny lrnef orsber lbh pbhyq npghnyyl trg pnyyrq. Vg'f jung gung jbeq zrnaf, evtug?

      • kte says:

        V ernyyl jnag gb frr gur fgbel bs gur 85 lb jbzna jub fhqqrayl trgf ure fynlre cbjref…

    • cait0716 says:

      I agree with you, but I'm not sure the characters in the show do. Then again, they probably haven't spent quite as long thinking about this as I have. And the Council is clearly completely inept.

    • EXACTLY. Buffy coming back to life didn't revert the slayer line back to her. As far as anyone else is concerned, Faith is technically THE slayer now, and another will only be called when she dies.

    • @wickedzen says:

      1st paragraph responds to Seventh_Star; 2nd paragraph also spoils season 4:

      Jurarire n punenpgre fnlf fbzrguvat juvpu pbagenqvpgf rfgnoyvfurq pnaba, V whfg nffhzr ur be fur vf fvzcyl jebat. Be gung jr jrer jebat. Naljnl, fbzrbar'f jebat.

      Xvaq bs yvxr ubj vg'f bsgra fhttrfgrq gung n inzcver unf abguvat bs gur crefba vg jnf orsber, ohg Natry uvagf (na rcvfbqr be gjb ntb) gung guvf zvtug or jebat – juvpu frrzf inyvqngrq ol gur inzc-irefvbaf bs n ybg bs punenpgref jr xarj orsber, yvxr Unezbal.

    • Skyweir says:

      I tend to agree.

      Ohg, bs pbhefr, gur jubyr "bar tvey va nyy gur jbeyq" vf whfg na neovgenel yvzvg frg ol n ohapu bs byq zra jura gurl perngrq gur Fynlre. Guvf vf va snpg bar bs gur orfg (naq zbfg qvfgheovat) cnegf bs Fynlre yber. Gurer vf ab "qvivar" pnyyvat gb fynl, ab fnperq qhgl. Whfg n pnony bs zntvpnaf naq gurve frys-erarjvat jrncba, va gur sbez bs n lbhat tvey.

      Gur "bssvpny" Fynlre vf na rzcgl gvgyr.

  5. hpfish13 says:

    I can’t believe we have so few episodes left of this season. This one is uncomfortable to watch, but really well done.

    Mostly what it left me with is questions, though, including:

    1.) When did they set up this whole thing? Was before the episode began? After Faith came to see Angel the first time? Was it before Buffy talked to Willow after she saw Angel and Faith together?

    2.) On that note, was the chanting guy someone who actually does remove souls from vampires? Or does he just look and act like someone who does?

    3.) If he doesn’t actually remove souls, did they take out the demon/person/whatever who did and replace him with Giles’ friend (introduced him to his wife, lol)?

    4.) How much of what Faith said to Angel (particularly the first time) was honest and how much of it was all an act? Because her reaction to the blood on her hands—when there was no one else around—seemed pretty genuine.

    5.) Why didn’t they tell Willow and Xander about the plan? (I totally understand Wesley he would accidentally give everything away)

    6.) Why hasn’t the mayor destroyed those pictures of him a hundred years ago?

    7.) Why won’t my heart stop hurting?

    Side note: This is the second time I’ve noticed Buffy make a witty reference to a fairly well-known, but not universally known work of literature (the Waiting for Godot joke in this episode and the Death of Salesman joke before), I don’t really have a point, just thought it was interesting.

    Official things!
    Episode 17: Enemies
    Written by Douglas Petrie, Directed by David Grossman
    Original Airdate: 3/16/99
    A demon offers to sell Buffy and Faith the books of Ascension, but Faith, acting on behalf of the Mayor and defying Buffy, kills the demon and steals the books. When Angel refuses to help Faith, the Mayor enlists a shrouded demon to rob Angel of his soul.

    • Karen says:

      haha. Yeah, I was a bit dubious about the fact that Buffy would make a Waiting for Godot reference, but it was still a funny joke.

    • cait0716 says:

      I bet Faith's initial reaction was genuine. But I think we skipped a scene where she went to the Mayor (since she does have a good relationship with him) and he talked her down, but then came up with this plan to play on that and get her to seduce Angel

      This episode is definitely worth several rewatches to work out all the intricacies of the plan. It makes more sense when you see the twist coming.

      Re: Buffy referencing Waiting for Godot. I honestly think there's a better chance of Cordelia knowing The Zeppo reference than of Buffy ever having heard of that play. But maybe Sunnydale's English education is better than mine was. I didn't read that play until college (and wouldn't have heard of it if not for Buffy)

    • Mauve_Avenger says:

      "When did they set up this whole thing? Was before the episode began? After Faith came to see Angel the first time? Was it before Buffy talked to Willow after she saw Angel and Faith together?"

      I was really trying to figure this out when I was watching last night, because I was severely confused. Since IIRC Buffy says that Angel was "just doing what I asked," and there's no reason for her to have lied to Willow about not having talked to Angel yet, I think the fauxAngelus plan could only have come up in the gap between that conversation with Willow and the next scene with Faith at Angel's mansion at night. I still haven't figured out where Giles comes in, though. I'm guessing he was contacted by the Mage either right before or right after the interview with Wilkins (depending on how the Mage knew about the job), but there are no clues as to when Giles would've passed that info on to Buffy and/or Angel.

      I don't know if I'm way off base here, but for some reason I don't think that Angel's soulification is so common that there'd be someone who could reasonably specialize in vampire desoulment, though I'm guessing there are people who do more experimental magic who would be willing to try (esp. since it wouldn't particularly matter if it caused pain or death in this case). I'm thinking that either the Mage guy was just so renowned for his magical power that Wilkins knew to ask for him, or Wilkins just put out a rumor that he needed that service to mess with Buffy and the Mage knew it was his chance to repay his debt to Giles.

      "Why didn’t they tell Willow and Xander about the plan? (I totally understand Wesley he would accidentally give everything away)"

      YES. Even if they thought the gang would be out of harm's way researching Wilkins*, it really didn't make sense to keep them in the dark.

      *Which at the very least they knew Xander wasn't, since he opted out of going and said that he'd just be wandering around town looking for more info instead.

    • KatieHal says:

      I always took it to mean the guy who faked stealing the soul was contacted by the Mayor, but as he knew Giles, he went to him first and told him what was going on. "Hey this Mayor guy wants me to steal a vampire's soul in your town. That's pretty weird, since, you know, they don't have them. …oh he does? Oh, you know him? You know what, let's meet up and talk this one out."

    • pica_scribit says:

      1.) When did they set up this whole thing? Was before the episode began? After Faith came to see Angel the first time? Was it before Buffy talked to Willow after she saw Angel and Faith together?

      My money is on right after Buffy and Willow talked, because Willow orders her to go talk to Angel, and we all know Willow's word is law, but we never see Buffy and Angel's subsequent conversation. I'm guessing that was where they set the whole thing up.

  6. Kickpuncher says:

    Thoughts on Enemies:

    -I can’t say I think much of Buffy and Angel playing this whole “close but not too close” thing. How long can their passion be held at bay by kissing and intermittent dry humping sessions?

    -Be careful of Faith, Buffy. She’s an enemy in anonymity. Many enemies in anonymity have enmity for entities like you and me. Anemone.

    -“There’s nothing uncool about healthy teeth and bones.” The Mayor is the best damn fictional character in the world.

    -Giles’ indignance at the demon’s modern affectations is also a really strong joke.



    -But for real, I like Faith and Angel having scenes together. I want them to hook up even less than I want Buffy/Angel to hook up, but I like their scenes way more.

    -I like that Wes and Giles have a sort of understanding going on.

    -This cloaked guy/The Mayor is the breakout new comedy duo of Sunnydale.

    -So would Angel have lost his soul if he’d slept with Faith? I’m inclined to think not, since I doubt Angel could be perfectly happy if he was feeling all guilty about cheating on Buffy.

    -Angel, you’re fun again! (You’re also still a dork)

    -Cordelia’s back at the Scooby Table! My heart is full of ~songs~

    -Cordelia/Wesley is still beautiful.

    -The Mayor, have I told you lately that I love you?

    -Haha Xander and Angel.

    -Faith status: Still an enemy, not in anonymity.

    -The thing about Xander saying “I told you so” is that he’s actually been pretty quiet on the Angel front since Revelations.

    -Wasn’t, like, a big part of Faith, Hope and Trick that Buffy felt a lot of pressure to be more like Faith since her friends and family were really into her?

    -He built this city. He built this city for Vamps and Trolls.

    -The world’s two best actors: David Boreanaz and Eliza Dushku.

    -Faith and Buffy kissed. I’m sure this means something. Probably means that lots of fanfictions got written.

    -The reveal that Giles hooked up Cloaky shadow guy with his wife is amusing but it’s awfully convenient.

    -Faith+Mayor mini golf? I need this in my life.

    -Buffy+Angel relationship angst? Turns out I don’t need this in my life.

    • Plactus says:

      -Faith and Buffy kissed. I'm sure this means something. Probably means that lots of fanfictions got written.

      The shooting script had Faith kiss Buffy on the lips. I've read a reason for the change, but I don't remember what it was.

      • robin_comments says:


        NEVER FORGET. ;_;

      • Kickpuncher says:

        As luck would have it, I have an internal memo from Mutant Enemy concerning this change. Here is the text of said memo, painstakingly reproduced for the good of the public:

        “To: The Doug-man,

        I have read your script for “Enemies” and unfortunately, it has a problem. It’s way too awesome. Consequently, I have replaced the scene where Faith and the Mayor play miniature golf with a scene where Angel and Buffy talk about their relationship. Also, I have modified the Faith/Buffy kiss to be a peck on the forehead, as otherwise I fear the episode will be so awesome that it makes all the others look bad.

        Fondest regards,

        Joss “The Boss” Whedon”

        • sirintegra42 says:

          OK, forever imagining all internal Mutant Enemy memos being like this :D. I can imagine Joss being like 'it's a great idea but it just needs more DEATH AND DESPAIR' on every episode somehow.

      • Kari18212 says:

        I almost wish I didn't know that, because now that kiss is just going to piss me off every time. That would have been amazing on many levels. Whatever that reason was, it was NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

      • caia says:

        Hey, anyone remember when Krychek kissed Mulder on the lips, and it was massively sped up for some reason? This was in the days before widely available computer editing software, and I wasn't techie enough for me to be able to slow it down, and it gave me a sad.

        • @Ivana2804 says:

          Krycek didn't kiss Mulder on the lips. He kissed him on the cheek, which as far as I'm aware is how you kiss friends and family (I'd sure be very upset if it's not so, it would make my greetings with the relatives at funerals and weddings really, .really squicky).

          • Meenalives says:

            I don't know what part of the world you're from and I know this really varies, but in the US, men kissing other men is more or less always seen as having a sexual subtext, and platonic friends of whatever sex very rarely kiss. (It took me a while to get used to kissing my European friends, though I actually like it as a greeting.)

    • DreamRose311 says:

      -Be careful of Faith, Buffy. She's an enemy in anonymity. Many enemies in anonymity have enmity for entities like you and me. Anemone.

      Repeated because… well do I really need to give a reason?

  7. Love this episode, and watching it again with the knowledge that Angel is a big faker made it that much more interesting. I was really impressed with how well they pulled it all together, though I did feel like it might have been a better idea to drag it out a little longer … well, except for the part where Angel would have had to torture and kill Buffy to keep up the charade O.o

  8. settlingforhistory says:

    I really like the episode for how hard it is to figure out the various plans and motivations.
    It took me a while to understand that Buffy knew about Angel just pretending to become Angelus, at first I thought she only played along when she found the chains unlocked.
    I’m also sure that Faith does not simply carry out the Mayor’s plan, but genuinely wants Angel’s help in dealing with her fear of becoming evil. Maybe if Faith could have found someone on the good side who would be there only for her it really would have turned out differently and she would have betrayed the Mayor here.

    Angel and Buffy are nice together at the start of this episode, sure there is some sexual tension, but I like the message that a relationship without sex can work out and especially that it is the man that says „ It feels nice just to feel.“

    Funny that the demons are fleeing from what goes bump in the night in Sunnydale and not the human population. They are like rats leaving the sinking ship.
    Fhaalqnyr unf gb yvgrenyyl fvax vagb gur rnegu sbe gur uhznaf gb trg gur uvag.

    Giles is always eating nowadays, first a lollipop now a banana, but they are all just poor substitutes for jelly donuts.

    It’s weird feeling bad for a demon, but that guy seemed so harmless and he just wanted to escape the Ascension. Ur erzvaqf zr bs gur terra thl Natry nyjnlf orng hc sbe vasbezngvba, n yvggyr fyrnml ohg abg qnatrebhf.

    “There's more than one way to skin a cat,
    and I happen to know that's factually true.“ Ew! (Jryy ng yrnfg vg’f abg Onzov)

    Getting fired does wonders for Giles’ humor, the sarcasm in this episode is so wonderful.

    “Demons after money. Whatever
    happened to the still-beating heart
    of a virgin? No one has
    standards anymore…”

    “Again, you see? No standards. Any self-
    respecting demon should be living in
    a pit of filth or a nice crypt.”

    The Mayor has to be the most annoying human for any demon he is dealing with. I can’t believe a lot of people are so cheerful when they summon creatures from hell.

    Angel is so much better than Willow at pretending to be his evil self. The evil laugh is wonderful.
    Of course he has all the memories of Angelus, but can’t be easy for him to channel the part of himself that makes him feel constantly guilty.

    “Jr qba’g jnag n ercynprzrag Fynlre nalgvzr fbba.” Ohg ab Fynlre jbhyq unir ercynprq Ohssl, Snvgu jbhyq unir arrqrq gb qvr sbe gung gb unccra. Fgenatr gung gur Znlbe qvqa’g xabj gung, ohg vg cebonoyl arire unccrarq orsber gung gurer jrer gjb Fynlref ng gur fnzr gvzr.

    I really like the idea, that there is another way for Angel to lose his soul.
    The spell doesn’t seem to break the curse, but forcefully rips the soul from a person.

    Rira urer Snvgu yvxrf gur vqrn bs gbegher. Jung fur qbrf gb Jrf va gur fcva-bss vf fpnevre gubhtu.

    Giles sure knows some weird people and I love it that he did something so harmless for the shaman.
    “I introduced him to his wife.” Now that I would have loved to see.

    So now Faith is officially on the Mayor's side. A good decision not to drag this reveal out for too long, the relationship between Faith and the Scoobies was so tense, they were bound to find out soon anyway.
    And it gives us the chance to see more father/daughter interaction between the two.

    “I've got two words that are
    going to take all the pain away.
    Miniature. Golf.”

    The Mayor is definitely one of the most entertaining villains of the Buffyverse.

    • RaeBear says:

      oh my still ya'll are not prepared.

      how great is Wesley? how beautiful, heart-rending is that "always". OH my.

      Ebthr qrzba uhagre.
      jung'f n ebthr qrzba?

  9. ambyrglow says:

    Vs gur Fpbbovrf tenqhngr ng gur raq bs frnfba guerr, jung gur shpx vf guvf fubj tbvat gb qb va frnfba sbhe? Guvf vf n fubj nobhg uvtu fpubby.

    Nu, abj gurer'f gur dhrfgvba. Gur dhrfgvba, bar zvtug nethr, gung gur fubj fcrag gur arkg sbhe frnfbaf synvyvat nebhaq gelvat naq snvyvat gb nafjre.

    • Karen says:

      yby. Vqx. V qb guvax gung frnfba 4 vf irel zhpu n genafvgvbany lrne, ohg V guvax gung gur fubj ernyyl svaqf vgfrys ntnva va frnfba 5. Orpnhfr gur fubj va frnfbaf 1-3 JNF n ybg nobhg uvtu fpubby, ohg ol frnfba 5, gur fubj zber svezyl pragref vgfrys ba Ohssl naq vg ernyyl jbexf sbe zr.

      Ohg gura V'z bar bs gubfr crbcyr jub cersref yngre frnfbaf bs Ohssl gb gur rneyvre frnfbaf.

      • DreamRose311 says:

        Xvaq bs yvxr ubj gur svefg lrne bs pbyyrtr vf xvaq bs n genafvgvbany lrne? V xvaqn srry gur frevrf vgfrys vzvgngrf yvsr, abg whfg gur punenpgref va vg. Vg'f xvaqn arng. Gubhtu V'z abg fher ubj gb qrfpevor frnfba frira nf n fgntr bs yvsr… guvf erdhverf fbzr gubhtu.

        • Karen says:

          V guvax va fbzr jnlf frnfba 7 vf nobhg ybbxvat onpx va beqre gb zbir sbejneq. Gur svefg unys bs frnfba 7 unf n ybg bs Sernx bs gur Jrrx glcr rcvfbqrf gung srry irel frnfba 1 be frnfba 2. Ohssl vf erivfvgvat uvtu fpubby. Ohg gura gur frpbaq unys vf nobhg ure yrnivat gung oruvaq naq rzoenpvat ure ebyr nf n yrnqre/trareny. Fb yvxr vqx. V guvax gung n ybg bs crbcyr tb guebhtu n cunfr qhevat pbyyrtr be nsgre pbyyrtr jurer jr unir fbzr abfgnytvn sbe gur fvzcyvpvgl bs uvtu fpubby. Ohg gura jr unir gb zbir onpx gung naq fubhyqre gur oheqra bs nqhygubbq naq erfcbafvovyvgl.

        • cait0716 says:

          Gurer'f guvf frperg nobhg orvat na nqhyg gung lbh qba'g svaq bhg hagvy lbh'er npghnyyl na nqhyg. Ab bar ernyyl srryf tebja hc va gurve gjragvrf. Lbh znl npg yvxr vg. Sbe nyy gur jbeyq, lbh znl nccrne tebja hc. Ohg gurer ner zbeavatf gung lbh ybbx va gur zveebe naq lbh fgvyy srry yvxr n xvq. Va bar frafr lbh'er qbar naq va nabgure lbh'er whfg ortvaavat. V guvax gung'f jung gur friragu frnfba, naq rfcrpvnyyl gur svany rcvfbqr pncgherf ornhgvshyyl. Cneg bs Ohssl "orpbzvat pbbxvrf" vf ernyvmvat gung fur'f fgvyy whfg qbhtu.

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      Gur fubj jnfa'g naq qvqa'g unir gb or gelvat gb nafjre gung dhrfgvba, fvapr vg'f n jebat dhrfgvba. Gur fubj jnf abg nobhg uvtu fpubby. Gur fubj jnf nobhg Ohssl, gur Inzcver Fynlre. N tvey jub zvtug zbafgref juvyr gelvat gb unir n abezny yvsr. Naq gung'f jung vg jnf sbe nyy 7 frnfbaf (naq fgvyy vf va gur pbzvpf).

  10. Can Wesley not die? I hate even typing that because I know that it’s basically a death sentence, but I like him a lot. UGH I ALREADY REGRET SAYING THAT, BUT WHATEVER.
    Geez, why don't you just nominate him for President? Cerfvqrag bs gur Ebthr Qrzba Uhagref Nffbpvngvba.

    One more thought: If the Scoobies graduate at the end of season three, what the fuck is this show going to do in season four??? This is a show about high school. Do they all go to different colleges? No college? What the fuck?
    Actually, the rest of the show is just them sitting around reminiscing about all the shit that happened in the first three seasons.

    • Actually, the rest of the show is just them sitting around reminiscing about all the shit that happened in the first three seasons.

      … I would watch that

    • Laneswitch says:

      i love your fake spoilers

    • robin_comments says:

      Actually, the rest of the show is just them sitting around reminiscing about all the shit that happened in the first three seasons.
      This makes me think of that "flashback" episode of Clerks: the animated series. THERE HAS GOT TO SOMEONE ELSE WHO KNOWS THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. COMIC GENIUS.

      • Second-episode clip show, what what!

        Now I kind of want "Paradigms of Human Memory," the Buffy version.

        • sirintegra42 says:

          That would be amazing. I think that's actually my favourite episode of Community, just because I'm a big fan of randomness. Frr nyfb zl ybir bs Erfgyrff naq 'V jrne gur purrfr, vg qbrf abg jrne zr.' Nu, V pna'g jnvg gb ernq Znex'f ernpgvba gb gur Purrfr Thl.

        • farwell3d says:

          And first (of two) episodes to actually air.

      • TrampyMcBitca says:

        Random useless fact about me. I lived down the street from the Quick Stop.

      • Jerssica says:

        I am FOREVER OBSESSED with Clerks the Animated Series. it makes me sad when I say "Bear is driving? How can that be?!" and no one ever understands. Every episode was perfection, especially the flashback episode

    • magpie says:

      Actually, the rest of the show is just them sitting around reminiscing about all the shit that happened in the first three seasons.

      How I Met Your Slayer???

      Wait… that show already exists. Honestly, I think How I Met Your Mother must be the biggest employer of Buffy alum (and of course, even more so just straight up Whedon alum) out there: Willow, Wesley, The Mayor, Wbanguna, Serq, Naqerj, Pbyyrra, jubrire Xny Craa jnf va Orre Onq… I know I'm still missing some…

      • What the hell, Enpury Ovyfba was on Buffy? Zna, jub pbhyq xrrc genpx bs nyy gubfr Cbgragvnyf naljnl. V onfvpnyyl erzrzore Sryvpvn Qnl, Zvyyvr sebz Sernxf naq Trrxf, naq, hz, gurer jnf n oynpx bar naq n Puvarfr bar naq cebonoyl fbzr bgure fbeg bs rguavp qvirefvgl dhbgn.

      • Karen says:

        Xny Cra jnf ba Natry gbb!

      • Seventh_Star says:

        the fact the writers/creators of himym are huge buffy fans (they've said so in the commentaries, if employing all those actors wasn't evidence enough) just makes me like that show even more.

      • _Bailey_ says:

        Morena Baccarin (Inara from Firefly/Serenity) was in an episode of HIMYM too.

        Personally, I'm waiting for the day Nathan Fillion and Felicia Day show up (preferably in the same episode!) to torment Barney . . . .

  11. enigmaticagentscully says:

    "If the Scoobies graduate at the end of season three, what the fuck is this show going to do in season four??? This is a show about high school. Do they all go to different colleges? No college? What the fuck?"

    RIGHT?? I was just talking about this with my sister the other day – I swear to god Buffy is a show set in high school. It didn't occur to me that they'd actually move up years and even graduate.

    But if they do leave school then…then less than half the show is set in in high school and I just feel like an idiot for assuming this.

    But how could they leave behind the library?? And Giles???

    • Jryy, gurl'er tbvat gb OYBJ HC gur yvoenel, fbbbbbb.

    • knut_knut says:

      I suppose Giles could quit Sunnydale High and…travel with Buffy? How awkward would it be to roll into college with your former high school librarian.

    • DreamRose311 says:

      Ohg ubj pbhyq gurl yrnir oruvaq gur yvoenel

      … Jung yvoenel? Zna, jngpuvat arj crbcyr jngpu guvf fubj jvyy ARIRE trg byq. Fb zhpu ybir. V jnaan tb onpx gb jura V svefg jngpurq vg.

      • UnstrungZero says:

        Seriously, I started watching mid S6, and watched old episodes in syndication at the same time, so I never got this experience of being completely clueless. I am actually jealous of their unprepration!

    • settlingforhistory says:

      Ohg ubj pbhyq gurl yrnir oruvaq gur yvoenel?? Naq Tvyrf???

      Cerggl zhpu gur fnzr jnl gur yrnir oruvaq Fhaalqnyr; jvgu n OBBZ!

    • Karen says:

      Lrnu, gur svefg srj frnfbaf ernyyl NER n uvtu fpubby fubj, ohg vqx. Nf gur fubj zngherf, vg ernyyl orpbzrf nobhg Ohssl nf n punenpgre juvpu vf jul nf snvyl nf gur ynfg srj rcvfbqrf bs frnfba 6 ner, V fgvyy trahvaryl yvxr zbfg bs vg. Vg'f fhpu n tbbq frnfba sbe Ohssl punenpgre qrirybczrag. Frnfba 5 vf nyy nobhg Ohssl pbzvat vagb ure bja nf na vaqrcraqrag crefba. Nf fur qrnyf jvgu gur erfcbafvovyvgl bs n yvggyr fvfgre juvyr ure zbgure unf gb qrny jvgu pnapre (naq yngre qvrf), Ohssl vf sbeprq vagb nqhygubbq. Naq V guvax gung nf guvf unccraf gur fubj svaqf vgfrys ntnva nf orvat pragrerq shyyl ba Ohssl vafgrnq bs ba uvtu fpubby be pbyyrtr be bgure frggvatf. Naq lrnu, V yvxr frnfba 7 (gubhtu gurer ner qrsvavgryl vffhrf jvgu vg) orpnhfr V guvax vg fubjf ubj sne gur fubj unf pbzr ol oevatvat onpx fbzr frnfba 1 be 2 glcr cybgf (anzryl "Uvz") va gur ortvaavat bs gur frnfba naq fubjvat ubj Ohssl svgf vagb gung xvaq bs fgbel abj nf na nqhyg. Naq gura va gur frpbaq unys bs gur frnfba, vg tbrf onpx gb orvat nobhg Ohssl naq yrneavat ubj gb or n yrnqre.

      Vqx. Gung jnf n ybg bs jbeq ibzvgr.

      Zbeny bs gur fgbel: V qb guvax gung gur fubj qbrf n ybg bs tbbq fghss nsgre gur Fpbbovrf yrnir uvtu fpubby naq crefbanyyl vg nccrnyf gb zr zber.

      • cait0716 says:

        V nterr. Gur fubj orpbzrf yrff nobhg uvtu fpubby naq zber nobhg tebjvat hc. Jura V jnf va zvqqyr/uvtu fpubby, V yvxrq gur svefg guerr frnfba orfg. Ohg abg gung V'z va zl gjragvrf, vg'f gur yngre frnfbaf gung fcrnx gb zr zber. Rira fbzr bs gur njxjneqarff ba genafvgvbavat vagb pbyyrtr, naq gura genafvgvbavat bhe bs pbyyrtr. Naq qrnyvat jvgu qrcerffvba be svaqvat n wbo be cnlvat ovyyf be jungrire.

        • Skyweir says:

          Guvf rknpgyl.

          Rfcrpvnyyl frnfba 4 naq 5 unf orra zbivat hc va zl ertneq rnpu gvzr V jngpu gurz. Vs V jbhyq unir gb pubbfr, V jbhyq abj pubbfr gur ynfg 4 bire gur 3 svefg, naq gung jnf qrsvavgviryl abg gur pnfr jura V jnf va uvtu fpubby naq jngpurq guvf.

      • lyvanna says:

        V srry n ovg yvxr V'z pbzzrag-fgnyxvat naq whfg nterrvat jvgu rirelguvat lbh fnl ohg 'Jbeq' gb nyy bs guvf. Gur yngre frnfbaf ner zl snibhevgrf ol n ybat fubg. V qb rawbl gur rneyl fghss, vg'f n ybg bs sha naq qbrf fbzr tbbq jbex ohvyqvat gur punenpgref, ohg V eryngr jnl zber gb gur yngre frnfbaf.

      • @Ivana2804 says:

        V nyfb cersre gur yngre frnfbaf, naq V'q nterr jvgu lbhe pbzzrag, rkprcg gur cneg nobhg gur ynfg srj rcvfbqrf bs frnfba 6 orvat 'snvyl'. Snvyl? Gurl jrer njrfbzr!!

      • UnstrungZero says:

        Gbgnyyl nterr. Gung'f jul V jnvgrq gvy F3 gb fgneg erjngpuvat nybat jvgu Znex. gur UF rcf ner yvxr Cer-Ohssl sbe zr. Sha gb xabj, ohg abg gur erny zrng bs gur fubj. Gurl srry yvxr onpxfgbel.

    • alz says:

      Guvf pbagevohgrf gb jul vg'f abg nf tbbq nsgre Frnfba 3.

      V ybirq n ybg bs gur fghss gung sbyybjrq, va snpg, zl gbc 3 rcvfbqrf nyy pbzr nsgre frnfba 3…ohg nf n jubyr, na "ragvgl" vg vf whfg arire guvf tbbq ntnva. V guvax yrnivat uvtufpubby pbagevohgrf. Gurer'f yrff ernfba sbe gurz gb fgnl gbtrgure, ohg gurl fgvyy qb…naq gung'f bx ohg qvqa'g jbex sbe zr nf jryy.

    • Fuchsia says:

      Ah, that upcoming hurdle that most shows can't get past: post-graduation. What we don't need is another Saved by the Bell: The College Years fail.

      [Am I showing my age with this comment? Probably.]

      • DreamRose311 says:

        Aww, I actually kinda like some of the College Years episodes. Sure as a whole it wasn't as good…

        Hm, the following spoiler is not for Buffy, but I'm wondering if saying what it is for is in it's own way a little spoilery? So… The show is: Cebsrffbe Ynfxl

        Vagrerfgvatyl gur svefg guvat V guvax bs abg orvat nf tbbq va pbyyrtr vf Irebavpn Znef, juvpu nyfb unf Cebsrffbe Ynfxl sebz FOGOGur Pbyyrtr Lrnef… jrveq.

        V'z fgvyy abg pbaivaprq gung vg'f *orpnhfr* IZnef jrag gb pbyyrtr, gurer jrer fgvyy n ybg bs tbbq guvatf va vg… vg'f whfg… V qba'g xabj, znlor vg'f orpnhfr bs gurz abg yrggvat Irebavpn naq Ybtna whfg or unccl? sbe ng yrnfg zber guna n pbhcyr rcvfbqrf? Naq V guvax gung Irebavpn naq ure qnq jrer gbtrgure yrff juvpu cebonoyl qvqa'g uryc. Bar bs gur orfg sngure-qnhtugre qhbf bhg gurer.

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      Giles is Buffy's Watcher (well not officially now, but you know what I mean) and a part of the gang. Why would they leave him behind?

      Nf sbe gur yvoenel, gurl qvqa'g unir n pubvpr naljnl fvapr vg jnf qhfg…

  12. arctic_hare says:

    And that is why you find out what a movie is about before you go and see it.

    Oh, more Buffy/Angel relationship angst, joy. Pardon me whilst I fetch my barf bag. OH FAITH, I HAVE NEVER BEEN MORE HAPPY TO SEE YOU, THANK YOU FOR INTERRUPTING THIS WITH YOUR EPIC HOTNESS. ILU. <3


    I love the Mayor and his dynamic with Faith. <3

    Xander's "And more importantly, two losers" line cracks me the hell up. ZING. See, this is the kind of snark you need to stick to, Xander. Lose the sexist remarks and keep on like this (and in Doppelgangland).

    I can't help but feel sorry for this demon. πŸ™ πŸ™ πŸ™

    Dammit, can't tell what Angel is reading. I wanted another laugh.

    Oh, Faith. πŸ™ I really think some of this was genuine, but that she thinks it's too late for her already to turn back now from the path she's chosen. I don't believe she's as cold-blooded and unrepetant a killer as she tries to make herself seem to everyone, including herself. I think she needs to believe that she is, and that she is loyal to the Mayor because he's the first person in her life to really and truly care about her and show concern for her well-being. Obviously no one pre-Sunnydale did, and until she entered his service no one there had either. I think she's also reacting to the idea of failing and getting replaced by the Mayor and that's driving her to be more afraid.


    LOL, poor Xander. I wouldn't be happy at not getting my money back either. Good on him for getting the info and making Wesley look silly (not that I don't like Wesley, just that moment was hilarious). Close your mouth, Wesley, you are not a codfish.

    WILLOW. FFS. KNOCK IT OFF WITH THE SLUT-SHAMING. YOU ARE REALLY PISSING ME OFF WITH THIS BULLSHIT. SUPER GROSS. And of course, Angel would never ever do anything like that, heavens no. Ugh. Why so awful lately, Willow? Also, picking out every instance of ableist dialogue on this show would take forever (it is one of my major pet peeves about the show), but I particularly dislike Willow's line about "stop with the crazy". She has a point about Buffy needing to talk directly to Angel about the matter, but the phrasing just irritates the shit out of me.

    Xabjvat gung Natry vf chggvat ba npg urer znxrf zr ernq guvf jubyr fprar sebz n qvssrerag natyr: anzryl, ubj qnza tbbq ur vf ng cergraqvat gb or Natryhf. Vg whfg yraqf shegure perqrapr gb zl oryvrs gung Natry naq Natryhf ner gur fnzr crefba naq vf n avpryl qbar sbyybjhc gb Natry'f nobegrq fgngrzrag ba gur znggre va Qbccrytnatynaq.

    Cordy is back with the Scoobies <3 <3 <3

    Angelus and the Mayor interacting is fantastic. My two favorite villains on the show. <3 The letter opener moment is a particularly good part of the scene.

    Xander, Cordelia has moved on and is into someone else now. I suggest that you:

    <img src="; border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">

    Buffy, GTFO with this "always have been" bullshit.


    AWWWWW. They are the bad guys, yeah, but I can't help but love them together. AND WANT TO SEE THEM PLAY MINIATURE GOLF. <3

    And we end this episode where we began, with B/A angst I yawn my way through. Though, I can't help but think that one of the things on Buffy's mind is what he almost said last episode about a vampire's personality, and how it relates to how good a performance he put on as Angelus. I really don't think the idea that the two are actually really similar is one she is prepared to really deal with. I think she'd rather believe that Angelus and Angel are two completely different people, and what she just saw makes it harder to continue clinging to that. She needs a break in order to sort things out for herself.

    • A Frog at Large says:

      Lbhe lnjaf nobhg Ohssl/Natry znxr zr puhpxyr naq V jnf whfg jbaqrevat ubj lbh srry nobhg gur Ohssl/Evyrl natfg va frnfbaf sbhe naq svir. Pbm juvyfg gur ohssl/Natry natfg unf zr lnjavat gbb, ng yrnfg jvgu Natry jr trg gur bppnfvbany vafcverq Natryhf zbzragf. Jurernf Evyrl svyyf zr jvgu entr ba gbc bs orvat gur qhyyrfg crefba RIRE naq ur unf zr guebjvat guvatf ng gur gi jura ur tbrf nyy inzc-nqqvpgrq naq zbbql orpnhfr Ohssl vf fgebatre guna uvz naq qbrfa'g arrq uvz gb cebgrpg ure.

    • BornIn1142 says:

      Dammit, can't tell what Angel is reading. I wanted another laugh.

      I made note of Angel reading Sartre in one episode, but I'm not sure if it was this one or another one…

    • sirintegra42 says:

      The link between vampires and their past selves is one of my favourite things about Buffy and part of why I love the flashbacks so much, even with David's terrible Oirish accent. Gur pbagenfg orgjrra Natryhf naq Fcvxr cnegvphyneyl. Natry naq Fcvxr'f svtug va frnfba svir bs Natry jura Fcvxr fnlf nobhg ubj ur jnf arire nf zhpu yvxr Natryhf nf ur jnagrq uvz gb or nyjnlf pbzrf gb zvaq. Bgure crbcyr znl pbzcynva nobhg uvf 'onqnff qrpnl' ohg V nyjnlf yvxrq uvf nep va na bqq jnl. Ur jnf nyjnlf cerggl varssrpghny ubjrire zhpu bs n ONZS ur jnf naq ur jnf arire dhvgr nf gjvfgrq nf Natryhf, cbffvoyl orpnhfr bs ubj ur jnf nf n uhzna.

    • _Bailey_ says:

      "Bu, zber Ohssl/Natry eryngvbafuvc natfg, wbl. Cneqba zr juvyfg V srgpu zl ones ont."

      V frevbhfyl qbrfa'g xabj jung V'z tbvat gb qb jura Znex trgf gb "V Jvyy Erzrzore Lbh." Gur cbfg tbrf hc ng 5CZ jurer V yvir, fb V hfhnyyl erjngpu gur rcvfbqr bire fhccre. . . . V'z guvaxvat nonaqbavat gung genqvgvba jvyy or arprffnel sbe gung rcvfbqr.

  13. mangoface says:

    I personally don't think Faith was lying completely in her scenes with Angel – at least, not the parts where she said she thought he understood her and her interest in him. She looked so hopeful and the way she looked at him all dotingly in the Mayor's office convinces me that she really did feel an almost-connection with him. And the end of their first scene, when she asks if they ever could have been. πŸ™

    And why is Angelus so hilariously evil? I mean, I know he's a psychopath and Angel was only pretending, but SERIOUSLY. He has the best lines. But of course the whole thing disturbed Buffy (understandable) and they take a break and they're all sad and why can't my otp be happy? WHY? *curses Whedon*

  14. Noybusiness says:

    Faith said that the Mayor built the town for demons to feed on. Giles said in the second episode that the area was settled by the Spanish first, who called it Boca del Inferno. If we interpret Faith's line as referring to the current town of Sunnydale instead of the Spanish settlement that preceded it, then the Hellmouth must have existed before the Mayor got there.

    Jr frr uvz sbhaqvat gur gbja va bar bs gur Gnyrf bs gur Fynlref fgbevrf.

    I think Buffy got suspicious of Faith when she saw her turn on the light in the demon's apartment without looking for it.

    • @owldragon says:

      It's interesting to consider the idea that Sunnydale was intentionally built on the Hellmouth by the Mayor. One wonders how much of the "glossing over strangeness" that happens in Sunnydale is due to the Mayor's influence. I love that TV Tropes, among the LONG list of tropes listed for Buffy, includes the fact that the Absurdly Spacious Sewer system in actually justified, because the Mayor would have wanted vampires and demons to be able to move around underground.

    • cait0716 says:

      This was my reading, as well. The Mayor found the Hellmouth and used it for his own nefarious (and surprisingly long-term) plans

    • notemily says:

      I think Buffy got suspicious of Faith when she saw her turn on the light in the demon's apartment without looking for it.

      Oh dude, good catch.

  15. guest_age says:

    Pna Jrfyrl abg qvr? V ungr rira glcvat gung orpnhfr V xabj gung vg’f onfvpnyyl n qrngu fragrapr, ohg V yvxr uvz n ybg.


    Never feel bad for enjoying David's portrayal of Angelus, Mark. Seriously, he plays Angelus about ten thousand times better than be plays Angel and note that when I say this, I am coming from a place of being mostly satisfied with his portrayal of Angel (save for the early episodes, but hey, no one was very good back then so a pass all across the board for that). HE'S JUST AWESOME AS ANGELUS, OKAY?

    IDK what that says about my psyche but I've long ago learned to not feel badly about it. πŸ˜€

  16. holypotatoes says:

    This is my all time favorite Buffy episode. Not ashamed to say it. The whole thing is just glorious and the culmination of the episode with Buffy/Faith going head to head just makes me squee with delight. I just love the entire thing so much. And I do a slow clap to myself when Buffy says she's better than Faith. It's just so flipping fantastic!!!! "You had to tie me up to beat me. There's a word for people like you Faith… Loser."

  17. Laneswitch says:

    i just wanna say that I'd love to see the mayor and Faith just be happy together, miniature golfing and ruling the world and going to PTA meetings. Yes, they're evil, but not a hatable kind of evil, right? shouldn't they get the happiness ever after too? I'd be for it.

  18. knut_knut says:

    I liked parts of this episode, but I wasn’t convinced that Angel had turned evil AGAIN because I didn’t think the writers would go down that road so soon. GO ME FOR SUCCESSFULLY NOT BEING COMPLETELY GULLIBLE LIKE USUAL. But minus points because it kind of ruined the experience? I looooooooooved that we got to learn more about Faith. Her confession/monologue to Buffy at the end just broke my heart. I can see why she’s loyal to the Mayor because he seems to genuinely care about her- he’s almost like her parent.

    But I am glad that Buffy and Angel are taking a break. Can this one be permanent? I feel like their scenes together are either really well done or UGH ROLLING MY EYES RIGHT OUT OF MY HEAD SO GODDAMN CHEESY.

  19. Karen says:

    The evolution of Faith and Angel’s relationship is so fascinating to me. Here, she pretends that she wants his help, but really she’s trying to seduce him so he’ll lose his soul. Ohg V guvax vg’f fvtavsvpnag gung jura Snvgu vf ba ure frys-qrfgehpgvir fcveny va “Svir ol Svir” Natry vf fgvyy gur bar fur vafgvapgviryl tbrf gb sbe uryc (rira vs fur guvaxf fur’f tbvat gb uvz sbe uryc gb trg urefrys xvyyrq). Gur guvatf gung ur fnvq gb ure va “Pbafrdhraprf” ernyyl gbbx ebbg.

    I also have to wonder how much of Faith's attraction to Angel (which does seem to be genuine) has to do with the fact that she wants what Buffy has (friends, boyfriend, happy family life) and Angel is a part of that.

    Anyway, Angel pretending to Angelus is fabulous. I LOVE Angelus, so I'm happy to see him again, even if it is just a bluff on Angel's part. The whole long con is just really enjoyable to watch and I think even seeing Angel pretend to be Angelus affects Buffy more than she knows.

    Their relationship is in a really weird place. They're together, but they know that there are limits to their relationship. They clearly have a lot of sexual attraction to each other, but they know that they'll never be able to consummate it. So it's like this never ending sexual frustration, and then I think that seeing "Angelus" again (even though she knows it's just pretend) reminds Buffy of what Angel has the potential to be and why they can never be together.

    Other thoughts:
    – I continue to love the pseudo father-daughter relationship that Faith and the Mayor have going on.
    – Cordelia is so adorable and transparent in her attempts to flirt with Wesley.

    • snapsnzips says:

      I've always believe while watching the scene between Angel and Faith that she is truly conflicted. She thinks she's playing a part but isn't really ok with what she's done. And I think you're spot on with the Faith just wants what Buffy has. Fur jrag evtug nsgre nyy bs Ohssl'f guvatf qhevat gur obql fjvgpu arkg frnfba.

    • Seventh_Star says:

      i'm a big fan of the faith/angel dynamic (though not as lovers, to clarify). he's the only character that really understands her naq jub ershfrf gb tvir hc ba ure. vg'f dhvgr gbhpuvat.

  20. cait0716 says:

    In which Faith continues to not be as clever as she thinks she is. I love the girl, but she is always just one step behind Buffy.

    Even knowing the twist ending, I derive immense joy from this episode. Mostly because David Boreanaz is so much more fun when he's playing evil (or playing playing evil). Also the Mayor and Faith are adorable.

    But seriously, Buffy, just talk to Angel if you're feeling jealous. I got the sense that Angel figured out Faith was lying after she tried to kiss him and went to Giles. Then the demon also went to Giles because he owed him that favor. So Giles put two and two together and went behind Wesley's back. Buffy was clearly in on it, but I doubt anyone else was. I think that the initial interaction she saw between Angel and Faith really did hurt and then it was hard for her to separate out his acting from her jealousy.

    I do love the scene when Willow is trying to make her feel better, finds out she hasn't actually talked to him, and just tells her to go have a damn conversation with her boyfriend. Willow is smart.

    Also, I adore the blue and purple outfit Buffy was wearing. I would wear that.

    • robin_comments says:

      In which Faith continues to not be as clever as she thinks she is. I love the girl, but she is always just one step behind Buffy.
      I feel like possibly it's Angel's S2 turn that did that for Buffy — I'm not sure that early S2 Buffy would be able to deal with Faith as competently as she does here. (Also, add to that Giles' betrayal in "Helpless".)

      This Buffy is more jaded and less unconditionally trusting. It's sadly much easier for her to conceptualize someone she liked & trusted turning into a dangerous enemy.

      • cait0716 says:

        That makes sense. Last season Buffy was falling into traps left and right. This season it's Faith. It can mostly be chalked up to Buffy having more experience as a slayer (which leads to the more cynicism).

  21. magpie says:


    I watched this for the first time a few months back and pretty much lost my shit when I got to the greatest moment of all time (thus far):

    Faith: What can I say? I'm the world's best actor.
    Angel: Second best.

    I had to take a while to recover from that bit of AMAZING.

    Meanwhile, HTU V nz fb jbeevrq sbe Znex'f ernpgvba gb Jrfyrl'f qrngu ng gur IREL raq bs Natry frnfba svir. V jnfa'g fcbvyrq sbe gung jura V svanyyl tbg gb vg n pbhcyr bs jrrxf ntb, naq V svtherq ol gung cbvag ur'q or bxnl. JEBAT. V JNF FB FB IREL JEBAT.


    • Karen says:


    • Seventh_Star says:

      uvf qrngu uhegf zr zber guna nal bgure va gur ohsslirefr. v whfg pna'g.

  22. etherealclarity says:

    One of the tropes that irritates me most is when a beautiful woman tries to pull the wool over a man's eyes by acting sexy/seductive, but with the flimsiest of excuses, and he FALLS FOR IT. I feel like it reduces a woman's power strictly to her sexual attractiveness and it reduces men to absolute idiots if there is a beautiful woman involved, which, ugh.

    So it is quite lovely when that trope is subverted, like it was here. πŸ™‚

    (Incidentally, I finally convinced my boyfriend to give Battlestar Galactica a try and we watched the season 1 episode last night where Six attempts to do this very thing to Adama and he is UTTERLY UNFOOLED and I had to give him a huge cheer and my boyfriend called him Edward James SHUT IT DOWN and then we had a lovely moment where we came up with all kinds of alternative last names for Edward James Olmos.)

  23. Delta1212 says:

    It really felt like, in a lot of the moments where he wasn’t actively engaging with anyone, Angel still looked like Angel rather than Angelus. Like, he talked and acted like Angelus, but his default face was still “Angel broody” to a degree I don’t remember the real Angelus’s being.

    I’m wondering if this was intentional or just my imagination or what.

  24. stellaaaaakris says:

    Huh, I was not expecting that. I'm a mixed bag of emotions, everybody. I was happy because I find Angelus an interesting character, much more so than Angel – although he has been bothering me less this season. I was confused because this seemed like a different version of Angelus (although I did attribute that to the lack of Spike to play off of rather than Angel's acting abilities – I'm impressed. I guess when he wasn't busy brooding, Angel practiced his acting). I was wary because we've already done the whole Angelus torturing Buffy thing. And then the big reveal. And it was all extremely interesting, but, somehow, still unsatisfying. I wanted more…something. Possibly I just wanted more episodes to watch. I want to skip work and just finish up the next four seasons. Is that wrong?

    Were Giles, Buffy, and Angel (plus mysterious disappearing guy) the only ones who knew the plan? What about Willow and Oz? If Xander was the only one kept in the dark, I would take issues with it. I hate him fervently at times, but he should not be singled out for that reason. But I get the impression Willow didn't know either, when Buffy said she went to the mansion but Angel wasn't there.

    I'm a bit disappointed in the mayor as the big villain of Season 3. Maybe I just built him up too much in my mind, but I was expecting something different. This cheery, cleany bug thing with an evil vibe really isn't doing it for me. (I do admit though that this could be largely based on the fact that I was reading Pollyanna for most of the time we've had a face to connect to the office and she annoys me more than I can say. I cannot stand her and the Mayor reminds me a bit of her, especially here.) We still have a few episodes left in the season and I am still intrigued but, well, we'll see.

    • knut_knut says:

      Yea, the Mayor hasn’t really done anything, but I think everything is building up to his ascension on graduation day. I feel like it’s going to be big and epic because of how very non-threatening he is now. He disappointed me at first too, but maybe we’re supposed to underestimate him until the end.

  25. t09yavosaur says:

    -Angel, your attempt at a date is adorable if unsuccessful.
    -I believe that “rub your nose in it” comes from dog training Buffy.
    -I recognize demon-boy's voice. Or maybe it is just that I like his voice
    -I feel like there is a point where the Mayors helpful nice evil guy routine will start pushing Faith away. But he has started some death threats as well.
    -Giles is constantly eating these days.
    -I don't care if this is all Cordelia does. I love to see Wesley speechless.
    -Awww, demon-boy keeps a goldfish.
    -I was thinking how I was out of my depth with this Angel/Faith moment but nope, I'm right back in shallow waters. Stupid Mayor.
    -28 bucks? Was that exactly what Xander had in his pocket?
    -Poor Angel's soul, it just keeps getting dragged in and out.
    -How did Buffy not walk in on that, they seemed like they were making out on the floor for long enough for her to get there.
    -The Mayor can't be harmed by anything but he blocked his heart with his hand. Was it just to protect the suit?
    -Who is the town's scrapbook artist?
    -Angel, I gotta say I am impressed. That was a wonderful performance. Bravo! Bravissimo!
    -Giles has demons in his dept? Daaanngg Ripper.
    -His Wife? I want to know this story!

    I think I have a few things straight now. These are my thoughts: Faith is happy Buffy knows, she was much more relaxed after she found out that the jig was up. Now it is a fair fight, everyone knows the score, and the double agent stuff is over. Also Faith is happy that Buffy can't kill her, happy for Buffy. I don't think she wants Buffy to become "like her". Lastly she wants Buffy to kill her, even though she doesn't want her to be a murderer.

    • UnstrungZero says:

      The Mayor can't be harmed by anything but he blocked his heart with his hand. Was it just to protect the suit?

      LOL I NOTICE THAT EVERY TIME. Probably. Though IRL it was probably easier to do a hand gag than a chest one.

  26. Batyachanna says:

    I think we all have that moment where Buffy goes from that show that our friends promised us we would like to realizing that it’s one of the best things that television has ever produced. People are often surprised when I tell them that for me it was “When She Was Bad.” I think that “Innocence” is a common epiphany episode. I’d be interested to hear when it happened for all of you.

    • enigmaticagentscully says:

      This is probably weirdly early on, but for me it was 'Prophecy Girl'

      I'd watched season one because Mark was doing it, and I enjoyed it and all but…it was just silly fun. I loved the characters and the witty dialogue. The effects were a bit cheesy but it had some neat plot twists and all. I was enjoying it.

      And then THAT EPISODE and I wept when Buffy broke down at finding out about her death, and I screamed when the vamps attacked the school and I cheered when Cordy drove through the school in her car and I FLIPPED THE FUCK OUT when the Hellmouth opened under the library…

      That episode was just amazingly written and acted on so many levels and it made me realise that this was a show WELL worth the watching. You couldn't possibly have gotten me more excited for season two.

      Of course that was before I knew season two would rip out my heart and leave me an empty hollow shell of a person. But we live and learn.

      • theDMG says:

        Prophecy Girl was also the stand-up-and-take-notice moment for me. So many emotional payoffs with a mix of scenes that were utterly grounded in reality (that Xander/Buffy scene hit me hard) and ones that mixed in the supernatural premise ("I'm 16 years old…").

        But the moment that the show really hit that never-looking-back tier for me was Innocence, especially the Angelus/Buffy scene in his apartment. At the end of that episode I knew there was no chance I wasn't watching every single episode of this show.

    • Delta1212 says:

      I think I’m going to say “Passion.” It’s been a while and I raced through the series, so it’s difficult for me to pin down how my feelings changed by episode, but I think that’s pretty close to the mark.

      The “Becoming” flashbacks, too. I’m a sucker for historical flashbacks of the lives of immortal characters. Considering how rare that is on TV, it’s a weirdly specific thing to love, but I do. New Amsterdam managed to find a special place in my heart because of that exact same thing despite otherwise being relatively mediocre as a show.

      • Ryan Lohner says:

        Passion did it for me too. The first real case of Joss daring to kill off a major character, before he reached the stage he's unfortunately in now where he relies on randomly killing people way to much rather than letting the story stand by itself.

    • tanbarkie says:

      I was going to say that it was "Innocence" that did it for me, but then I thought about it for a second and realized that my real turning point was "School Hard." IMO, Spike is the character that really exemplifies the fundamental concept of the show: taking these classic horror archetypes and simultaneously modernizing, badass-izing, AND humanizing them.

      The moment Spike killed the Annoying One, I literally could not stop myself from fist pumping in delight. And, of course, proceeding immediately to the next episode.

    • I think it was Surprise/Innocence when I realized that this show was amazing and in my personal top five, but Passion took it to a whole other level for me–when I realized that Buffy was, legitimately, one of the best television shows. It just blew my mind.

    • Karen says:

      I actually think that it was "Halloween" for me. LOL DON'T ASK ME TO JUSTIFY THAT. But I think that episode was just well written and fun and clever while speaking to larger themes at the same time.

    • robin_comments says:

      My point of view on the show definitely shifted with "Becoming II", with Buffy actually killing Angel, banding together with Spike for a common goal, and having an ugly secret identity reveal with her mother that wasn't hugs & understanding. It was really those 3 things that solidified for me that this was something different and would feature writing choices that really appealed to me. That's when I become seriously fannish and passionate about the series, instead of just idly entertained.

      (I can't know if it would have the same affect on me now. But in the context of when it was airing, starting with the finale of S2 the series gave me things that I didn't know I wanted yet. The storylines were suddenly richer, darker, and more unconventional that anything else I had seen in TV as a teenager. Now years later, I can pick it apart and point to other shows that have now did this or that in a way that I strongly prefer to how BtVS handled it… But that's also at least a little in part BECAUSE of BtVS and how it paved the way…)

    • cait0716 says:

      God, it was so long ago that I really have no idea. It may have been Surprise/Innocence. That's the first episode that I really have a clear memory of watching. Or, actually, anticipating. So it was probably way earlier than that.

      Actually, no. It was when I was sitting in drama class learning about A Midsummer Night's Dream and realized that the love rhombus was the same one being explored in Buffy (Girl A and Boy A are in love, Boy B likes Girl A, Girl B likes Boy A). And, okay, it was maybe a tad pretentious for me to suddenly be comparing Buffy to Shakespeare, but I was 11 at the time. This was probably a bit before What's My Line

      I think it was when the later seasons were airing and I was older and my mom had started watching with me that I really realized how amazing Buffy was as a TV show. It wasn't just this silly drama I watched anymore. It was something that sparked real and meaningful discussion about life with my mom.

    • astalix says:

      Angel (episode 1×07): i went from "this show is fun but i'm not sure i'll keep watching" to "Wow i didn't see this coming [Angel being a vampire], maybe i'll watch a few more seasons".

      And then i knew i became a fan of the show at the end of season 3 (3×22) jura v grnerq hc ng gung fprar bs gur fpbbovrf nsgre gur svtug gnyxvat ubj Uvtu Fpubby jnfa'g fb onq naq gurl'yy zvff vg.

    • snapsnzips says:

      I had a roommate who always watched Buffy when it was on TV and I scoffed mightily because I believed all TV was worthless trash(except Twin Peaks). I accused him of watching it for high school girls and their short skirts and bra straps. It was the Season 6 previews all over the place that made me take a look. I don't know why I had the TV on at all except that I was just finished up with a summer semester from Hell and needed some serious down time. So I watched a bit of S6 and kinda liked it although I had absolutely no context of course. Know what did it for me? You must. Gur zhfvpny. V gubhtug BZJS jbhyq or genfu naq vg oyrj zr bhg bs gur shpxvat fxl. Gung jnf gur svefg guvat V rire qbjaybnqrq sebz gur Vagrearg, ohearq gb n qvfp naq cynlrq bire naq bire naq bire. Naq bire.

      And then I went back and watched S2 when it was airing on TBS or whatever cable channel was running Buffy all the time.

      I loved the entire S2 storyline and hearted Spike and Dru like crazy but it was Surprise/Innocence that sent me over the edge of love and Becoming II that turned me into my first complete TV show basket case. I couldn't listen to Full of Grace for weeks without tearing up.

      Since then I've watched the first 3 seasons countless times and the rest quite a few and it never gets old. I've made lifelong fans out of skeptics like myself and I'm never sorry. It's one of the best things that's ever been on TV. B5 and BSG are probably the only other things I love as much, although I've recently been introduced to doctor who and am having a complete David Tennant meltdown. But that's a story for another day.

    • alwaysAmy says:

      Angel… When Darla brings a gun to a stake fight.

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      "Lie to Me". Or rather, that's when I realized it was a great show (not what my friends promised me, since none of my friends had seen Buffy, and I started watching it because it was on TV and sounded fun, but didn't expect more). "Passion" was when I realized it was one of the best things the TV has produced.

    • t09yavosaur says:

      I am still waiting. Maybe it will in one of the next 4 seasons.

      Not that I am not enjoying it. Buffy is currently one of the few things keeping me from being lost to the void of educational anguish that is college. But so far the only episode I have had the strong urge to re-watch has been the Witch.

      I think the problem is that I grew up with Buffy. I had plenty of opportunity to watch it when it was airing, I have probably seen all the previews and commercials, people would talk about the latest episode at school, and I have been meaning to watch it for the past few years for the nerd cred. Even the 3 episodes I did see back then, which were chock full of my favoritest tropes ever, never brought me in. I think for now Buffy is just a show that I like.

      • Batyachanna says:

        Keep waiting. You never know. I didn’t realize how much I loved Farscape until I was done with the entire show.

    • gonzoron says:

      So, this will be a weird one, and it hasn't happened yet, so I'll try to describe it as non-spoilery as possible. The episode was "Uhfu" (wow, that's a weird rot13…) and it was the first episode I saw. I'm a horror fan, and a horror role-playing game fan in specific, but like many, I'd dismissed Buffy as fluff with horror tropes, and not "real" horror. A friend had tried to explain to me that it was more than either of those, but I just mocked her, much to my later shame. (I did eventually apologize profusely years later after seeing the whole run). So when, several seasons in, someone on the horror RPG forum I frequent posted that this episode was re-running, and that everyone should watch it, I was confused. How could Buffy be of any interest to our little niche? But the poster was someone whose taste I trusted, so I gave it a shot.

      And was blown away. I still wasn't sure if this was par for the Buffy course, or just a fluke, but it convinced me to give the series a try from the beginning. (sadly, this meant I was spoiled for a few things (along with what the board game spoiled for me), but I'm not sure I would have stuck with it through season 1 if I didn't know how good it could get.) It wasn't until Innocence that the show got back up to my new expectations and completely hooked me, but "Uhfu" will always be what first showed me what this "silly" show could really be.

  27. stellaaaaakris says:

    Also, I'm going to list some random things that have been floating around my head:
    -Every time Faith is on the screen, no matter if she's all happy or murdering deputies, I see a jean clad shaking ass. Without fail.
    -I love Oz. Like, a lot. In a way that reminds me of how I felt about Wash. Which worries me a lot. I'm scared for Oz.
    -Alyson Hannigan dyed her hair but not her eyebrows and for some reason, I find that rather distracting.
    -My favorite part of the theme song is the sound when Giles swings the torch of fire.
    -I also think that Deputy Allan was going to warn Buffy and Faith, but it was because Mr. Trick and the Mayor didn't appreciate his love of Cathy. Ack!

    • cait0716 says:

      Unrelated, but my dad once accused me of dying my eyebrows. I hadn't, but he thought they didn't match my hair and his immediate reaction was to accuse me of dying my eyebrows. Because that made more sense than dying my hair.

      • _Bailey_ says:

        My eyebrows have never matched my hair, and not because I dye either one. Well, I do put highlights in my hair, but I'm naturally that weird shade between blonde and light brown, and you have to look really hard to see where my highlights are/grew out. But my eyebrows and lashes are a dark brown.

      • enigmaticagentscully says:

        My mum thinks I should dye my eyebrows to match my dyed hair.

        I keep telling her – it is not considered socially acceptable to dye one's eyebrows turquoise. Believe me, it would look far stranger if they DID match.

        • Neet says:

          Due to your username and icon, I often imagine you as looking like Dana Scully. I am now imagining Dana Scully with turquoise hair (and eyebrows).

  28. NB2000 says:

    – I'm not a fan of Buffy and Angel as a couple but the awkward movie date makes me giggle anyway. "They've changed" These movies today with the sex and food!
    – "Just keeping her warm for you" AHEM show
    – The Mayor's interactions with Faith are so weirdly charming. Offering her milk and suggesting she tie her hair back. He's just so nice to her, the "Ooookay" reactions she has are pretty wonderful too.
    – Hee Giles complaining about the demon's lack of standards.
    – "The Ascension is tomorrow, God help us all." Nice dramatic choice of last words.
    who’s kind of adorable, no? He really is. He's so completely unthreatening unlike almost every other demon we've seen so far on this show. The grabbing the goldfish bowl when he's rushing to pack his things is a nice touch.
    – "There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I happen to know that's factually true." O_O basically.
    – The Mayor's meeting with the spooky…guy (does he have an official name? I forget) is a wonderful piece of acting by Harry Groener. He's acting like it's a perfectly normal meeting with a human, so chatty and almost not completely paying attention to the other person.
    – Aww Willow being an awesome friend and telling Buffy to go and TALK to Angel. "Is he breathing?" "Actually no." hee
    – YAY ANGELUS! Or at least acting like Angelus, whatever, he's showing some personality again and I still like him so much better than as Angel.
    – And then Faith introduces her new boyfriend to her adoptive dad, also both of them are (kind of) EVIL. She actually looks kind of concerned when Angel says he wants to stab the Mayor.
    – Hey two seconds of Joyce! With highlights, apparently.
    – "She's so cute when she's sleeping." Oh god so creepy.
    – The reveal of the con, with that tiny bit of slow motion and sting on the score after Angel says "Second best" is well done. I probably didn't entirely get the complexities of it until I'd rewatched a few times.
    – "I introduced him to his wife." I love that answer, it's not particularly dramatic but I love it anyway. There's also something about Giles' tone when talking to him, it's sort of soft and respectful, that stands out to me.
    – "Miniature. Golf!" A popular choice with the evil beings of Sunnydale, first Ted now the Mayor. Faith's reaction to that is just adorable.

    • enigmaticagentscully says:

      "There's also something about Giles' tone when talking to him, it's sort of soft and respectful, that stands out to me. "

      Yeah, that struck me too. It sounded sort of regretful – like he was talking to an old friend who he had a history with and knew he'd never see again. But maybe I'm reading too much into it.

    • cait0716 says:

      "Miniature. Golf!" A popular choice with the evil beings of Sunnydale, first Ted now the Mayor. Faith's reaction to that is just adorable.

      I'd heard that that wanted Eliza Dushku to play the scene completely straight but she couldn't stop cracking up at his delivery of that line. So this was the result

  29. SecretGirl127 says:

    Now I am concerned about Wesley's life because you put it in writing, but I would be more distressed if you had nominated him for President, because that would mean he was going to die for sure, soon, and in an unfortunate way.

    • settlingforhistory says:

      Yes, Mark pretty much jinxed it now. If Wesley dies it will be his fault!

    • Batyachanna says:

      I’ve watched this and other show s that I love with unspoiled yet inquisitive newbies. There is a solution. Everyone on BSG is a cylon. Every single character. And in any Joss show the rule is the same. Everybody dies. If you ask me, that is what I will always tell you.

  30. darkwater says:

    Lrnu, abj V pna'g jnvg sbe ure gb frr Guvf Lrne'f Tvey naq gur pebffbire gb Natry.. naq gura gur Natry rcf.. urur.

  31. cemeterybaby says:

    "May I say something? PSYCHE." Complete with the taunting spirit fingers, it is one of my favorite Buffy moments ever, both as a character and on the show in general. I looove when people underestimate her and live to regret it.

    And, like, I get it, but I always laugh at Faith's rage about being duped by Angel and Buffy. You tried to turn him evil and were planning on torturing her! Not exactly in the position to take the moral high ground here!

    Regardless, the Buffy/Faith storyline continues to evolve into one of my favorites on the show. Both of them are written so well and even if I don't feel sympathetic to the choices Faith is making now, I understand what got her to this point and it all makes sense. Faith's slow turn into a villain is one of the best storylines this show has ever done. (Naq gurl unq n punapr gb ercrng n fvzvyne fhpprff jvgu Jvyybj va frnfba fvk…fnqyl, gurl pubfr gb tb gur ZNTVP VF YVGRENY PENPX ebhgr vafgrnq bs znxvat vg nobhg Jvyybj'f frysvfuarff naq ynpx bs ertneq sbe bguref naq ubj vg jnf rapbhentrq ol ure cbjre (naq gurl jrer FB PYBFR, jvgu Gnen ireonyvmvat cerggl zhpu nyy bs guvf, hc hagvy jungrire rcvfbqr jvgu gur zntvp penpx qra naq Enpx naq gur qrzba fur fhzzbarq naq bu zl tbq jung n ubeevoyr fgbelyvar). Jvyy sberire or ovggre gung gurl qvq guvf FB JRYY jvgu Snvgu va guvf frnfba naq gura qebccrq gur onyy pbzcyrgryl va gur fvkgu.)

    • Seventh_Star says:

      WORD to all your rot13. v rawbl frnfba 6 n ybg, ohg vg pbhyq unir orra RCVPNYYL NZNMVAT, naq guvf vf gur znva ernfba (v guvax) jul vg snyyf fubeg bs gung.

  32. tanbarkie says:

    I love Faith's journey in this episode, but I have to admit that, as "Whedon long con" episodes go, I prefer Firefly's "Trash." Mostly because Joss purposely inserts a few "tell" shots throughout "Trash," in which the Serenity crew break character – Kaylee hides a smile, Jayne asks a question about the caper in a too-earnest manner, etc.

    These things help sell the idea, for people RE-watching the episode, that our crew is actively working to fool Saffron but ultimately aren't trained actors or anything. So they occasionally slip up. Not enough to let Saffron on to the scheme, but just enough that the audience spends the whole re-watch smacking their foreheads and wondering aloud "HOW DID I NOT REALIZE THEY WERE TRICKING HER?!?!" It makes the re-watching a bit more rewarding, rather than an exercise in twiddling your thumbs and going "yeah yeah yeah" while the con is being executed.

    "Enemies" is a little more "standard TV con" in its approach. Not a bad thing, really, but it hurts the verisimilitude for me, just a tad.

    • UnstrungZero says:

      I agree almost completely, except for what someone else was saying. Angel pretending to be Angelus did have a different more Angel-esque default face when he was just listening to someone talk, like the Mayor, or with Joyce. He does seem a little off from the Angelus we saw in S2.

      But yes, that would still be the ONLY giveaway, and more easter egg things for rewatches are always nice!

  33. – Haha, somewhere, I kinda love that the movie "Le banquet d'Amelia" where Angel and Buffy went is French.
    The fear in their faces! lol

    Love the lines there:

    Buffy " Wasn't what I expected. I've never actually seen… Well, from the title I thought it was about food. "
    Angel " Well there was food"
    Buffy " Right. The, the scene with the, the food. So, feel like getting some hot chocolate? Or some cold shower?
    Angel "I'm sorry. I wanted to take you out somewhere fun. It's been a long time since I've been to the movies. They changed."

    I always wondered when Angel went to the movies… Now, he seems to prefer books.

    – I think the first time I watched this episode, I didn't really fear that Angel would have turned evil. I didn't see it happening that soon in the story of the show.
    Though, Angel "faking" and then fooling Faith was pretty enjoyable and really well done. Watching the episode a second time is really a must.

    "It's good to have the taste of a Slayer back in my mouth. It's like cigarettes, you know, just when I thought I'd quit"
    "I should have known you'd like it on top. "
    "Well, actually, I'm thinking more along the lines of you calling me Master. "
    "That guy just bugs me." after punching Xander.
    "You know, I never properly thanked you for sending me to hell. And I'm just wondering where do I start? Card? Fruit basket? Evisceration?"
    "You know what I just can't believe? All of our time together and we never tried chains."

    I missed me some Ange"lus" quotes…
    And no Mark, you're not the only one who has 10 or 45% of you that wants him back.

    – The scene with Faith, revealing all her feelings about Buffy, her jealousy as one of the reasons that led her to the bad side is powerful. Faith has so much rage inside… And then the revelation of the trick comes really well :

    " FAITH: What can I say? I'm the world's best actor. ANGEL: Second best. "

    – Also, I love so much that Giles has magic friends! "I introduced him to his wife"
    Haha. We know so little about Giles' past life…. Too bad that "The Ripper" spin off never came to real.

    – "You still my girl? … Always…"
    Yep, I'll always be a Bangel shipper.

  34. dasmondschaf says:

    I like this episode a lot, mostly because OMG ILU FAITH EVEN (ESPECIALLY?) WHEN YOU ARE MAKING BAD DECISIONS and also The Mayor is so brilliant.

    But I also find it… kind of unrealistic? Like, the long con is played SO PERFECTLY and, well…

    So, basically, once you think about it, most of the characters in this episode made nothing but good decisions for once. This is shocking to me!

    For me, it is SO WEIRD for everything to go perfectly that my impulse is to go THIS IS NOT SUNNYDALE AND THOSE ARE NOT MY SCOOBIES~ When did you plan this? How are you all such amazing actors? Etc.

    I think a lot of it is also that I can't remember if the con fooled me the first time I watched this? It was awhile ago.

    Also, can I just say that boy, Angel-in-character is such a better actor than David Boreanez is πŸ˜€

    (On an unrelated note: I find it hard to believe that a California city the size of Sunnydale actually has a strong-mayor form of government and not a Council-Manager form. But, uh, that's just because I get paid to be a bureaucrat.)

    IN SUMMARY: Can we just have the Faith and the Mayor show? Please?

  35. Mary Sue says:

    Following ROT13 has spoilers for Buffy and Angel.

    Pna Jrfyrl abg qvr? V ungr rira glcvat gung orpnhfr V xabj gung vg’f onfvpnyyl n qrngu fragrapr, ohg V yvxr uvz n ybg.

    Bu zl tbbqarff, Znex qvqa'g vafgnagyl xvyy n punenpgre!

    Lrnu, ur qvrf riraghnyyl, ohg abg sbe nabgure svir lrnef be fb!

    • RaeBear says:

      V xabj evtug! vg'f fb shaal. Jrfyrl unf n ybg bs yrg'f fnl hcf naq qbjaf gb tb naq znal zvyrf orsber ur fyrrcf. Bu gurer'f whfg fb zhpu gb gurfr fubjf!

    • LucyGoosey says:

      Ur'f gbgnyyl tbvat gb sbetrg ur fnvq nalguvat ol Natry frnfba 5

    • GirlWith1Eye says:

      vxe? ng yrnfg vg'f abg hagvy gur ynfg rcvfbqr bs gur ohsslirefr. vg'yy fgvyy or urnegoernxvat ohg jr'yy trg ybgf bs jrfyrl naq fb zhpu qrirybczrag ba uvf punenpgre orsber gung rire unccraf

  36. Inseriousity. says:

    It's ironic that during season 1 everyone's like "lolol Angel, you can't act" then there's a whole episode dedicated to him having to act evil. Not entirely sure if your chronology's right though. It always sounded to me like they just got a lucky break that the person the Mayor used owed a debt to Giles and tracked him down to repay that rather than Giles tracking him down. I'm sure Giles says "thanks for coming to me" or am I imagining my own plots again? I needa stop doing this

    • cait0716 says:

      I don't think you're imagining anything. That's the impression I got, too. Though I do think Angel was able to see through Faith in their first scene and maybe could have figured out that something was up

  37. darkwater says:

    Jryy lbh xabj jung, jr unir gb jnvg 5 frnfbaf sbe Znex gb fhssre gur qrngu bs Jrf abj. Htu.

    • DreamRose311 says:

      Ohg, jr bayl unir gb jnvg bar jrrx gb fgneg n 3-jrrx ybat crevbq bs Znex naq nyy guvaxvat gurl zvtug arire frr Jrf ntnva…

  38. misterbernie says:

    Oh, this episode.
    I like it. I just can't think about the timeline or the plan too much or else my head hurts because it makes no goddamn sense (or is really really contrived at best).

    I'm pretty certain the ninja-looking demon is supposed to be tuareg-looking. At least his headcovering looks like it's (at least supposed to be) a tagelmust.

    I still ship Buffy/Faith, btw.

    German title: Gefährliche Spiele – 'Dangerous Games'.

    • Delta1212 says:

      I figure the timeline works out such that it was hatched between when Willow told Buffy to go see Angel and when Faith showed up to take his soul.

      I don’t remember the order of things in the show well enough to say, (although it works both ways), but either the demon talked to Giles, who passed the information along to Buffy, and she and Angel became suspicious of Faith as a result, or Buffy met with Angel, became suspicious of Faith and they ropes the demon into the plan when he showed up to talk to Giles.

      Either way, I believe the talk with Willow and the taking of Angel’s soul provide the two bounds on when the plan was hatched and that it would have been possible for all the necessary events to take place within that window, albeit slightly rushed.

      • Mauve_Avenger says:

        I think it's said or maybe just implied that the sorceror/mage guy came to Giles unprompted.

        My theory is that Buffy was independently suspicious of Faith (she noticed that Faith knew where the light-switch in the demon's apartment was, I think?) and the talk with Angel confirmed her suspicions (at least on the murder front), so they told Giles about the murder and he told them about Wilkins' plan for Angel at the same time. And at that point if they don't already know that Faith is on the Angelus plan (I'm guessing the mage would've known and told Giles already), they just get the mage to find out for them.

  39. Avery says:

    When Buffy calls Faith a loser (one of the last things Faith wants to be, next to dead or alone), there’s a lot of disdain there considering Buffy's hand-wringing and refusal to give up on her two episodes ago. It could be that she's dismissed Faith as a lost cause, but it goes beyond digging for intel, and she makes it sting in a way that makes me feel like Faith hit a nerve in Consequences when she taunted Buffy over getting to "live my own way, having a blast, because it tempts you. You know it could be you." Buffy asserts her superiority over and over—as a Slayer, as a person, and as deserving of "real" Angel, not his evil sloppy seconds. (Sidenote, spoilers for AtS: V xvaq bs ybir gung Ohssl naq Natry hfr rnpu bgure’f creprvirq tbbqarff nf rtb obbfgf. Vg erzvaqf zr bs Natry’f wno ng Fcvxr va Qrfgval: “Ab. Lbh'er yrff. Gung'f jul Ohssl arire ernyyl ybirq lbh: orpnhfr lbh jrera'g zr.” Gurl trg nznmvat zvyrntr bhg bs rnpu bgure'f crqrfgnyf.) Yet even as Buffy holds all the cards, her coldness gives Faith a small measure of what she wants: a Buffy who’s a little meaner and less in control. And other parallels between them are all over this episode: their trust issues are on full display, and Buffy lets the demon with the books go by saying he doesn't look like a threat. With that determination she is acting like the law, as Faith swore Slayers do, even if she's not using it to kill. Girl doth protest too much.

    “What are you gonna do, B, kill me? You become me. You're not ready for that. Yet.” Ohg lbh jvyy or va Tenqhngvba Qnl naq Jub Ner Lbh naq Qrnq Guvatf!

    Another point about the mansion scene is that even though Faith craves the kind of attention and affection that the Mayor's shown her, she makes it clear that key part of their relationship is his power. She wouldn’t ever have gone to him if it didn’t mean gleefully rubbing it in Buffy’s face and destroying her later. When it comes to father figures, the Mayor is such a great inversion of Giles: both tell their daughters to kill things and try to cheer them up, but the Mayor just as cheerfully pimps Faith out to Angel.

    DBor is excellent as Angelus always, and more to the point, Angel is a little too good (especially in contrast to how unconvincing Willow was at the same feat in the last ep). It was part of the plan, but it shakes Buffy up, not only because it makes it harder to force Angel/Angelus into a neat little dichotomy, but also seeing Angel as wholly good is crucial to her self-image. She needs to be attracted to the good in him, because if Faith was right and her attraction to Angel was about them being killers, that makes S2 even worse and ups her guilt by a million. Buffy worries about Faith and Angel because of their shared capacity for darkness, which Buffy recoils from acknowledging in herself, but is what allows Faith a kind of kinship with Angel that she can't touch. Seeing Faith and "Angelus" together is an image of exactly what she and Angelus could have been if Buffy didn't care: powerful and free and totally uninhibited.

    This episode has plot holes you could drive a Hindenburg through (who first suspected Faith had turned on them? how did they know the Mayor planned to steal Angel’s soul? is there only one soul-stealing shaman for hire in the world? why they did keep the plan secret from everyone else?), but who cares because it's all-you-can-eat at the Buffy, Faith, and Angel insecurities buffet and I have gone back about 50 times. Love it.

    • arctic_hare says:

      I love this comment. <3

    • Seventh_Star says:

      really enjoyed this comment/analysis.

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      Spoilers for AtS: Natry'f creprvirq tbbqarff va Ohssl'f rlrf qvfnccrnef va Fnapghnel jura fur svaqf uvz cebgrpgvat Snvgu. Fur pnyyf uvz n zheqrere naq qenjf gur yvar bs qvfgvapgvba orgjrra "zheqreref" – uvz naq Snvgu – naq urefrys. Naq fur nyfb tvirf uvz n fcrrpu nobhg ubj jbaqreshy ure eryngvbafuvc jvgu Evyrl vf, gung fur xabjf uvz naq gehfgf uvz (juvpu, fur vzcyvrf, fur qvqa'g jvgu Natry).

      V qba'g guvax Ohssl ernyyl oryvrirq 'Natry' naq 'Natryhf' jrer gjb qvssrerag crbcyr, rira vs fur jnagrq gb. Sebz gur jnl fur gnyxf gb uvz va Nzraqf naq Fnapghnel, vg frrzf fur qbrf ubyq *uvz* erfcbafvoyr sbe jung ur qvq va F2. Fur whfg qbrfa'g jnag gb qrny jvgu vg. Fb fur vqrnyvmrf Natry va F3 naq erwrpgf Snvgu'f ivrj gung gurer vf fbzrguvat qnex va Ohssl'f nggenpgvba gb Natry, gung vg'f nobhg trggvat bss ba qnatre naq orvat nggenpgrq gb inzcverf (juvpu vf jul fur'f tbvat gb or ernyyl hcfrg naq va qravny nobhg ure nggenpgvba gb Fcvxr). Ohg va frnfba 4, jura fur'f zbivat ba sebz Natry, fur qrpynerf fur'f abg vagb "onq oblf" nalzber (va Fbzrguvat Oyhr, jura fur qrpvqrf gb fgneg n eryngvbafuvc jvgu avpr, fbyvq, abezny rgp. thl – Evyrl) – vzcylvat gung Natry jnf bar. Va Nzraqf, fur gbyq uvz gung vs ur qvrf abj, gura nyy ur rire jnf jnf n zbafgre, juvpu jnfa'g n evatvat raqbefrzrag sbe uvf npgvbaf, rira jvgu n fbhy, hc gb gung cbvag. V'z abg ernyyl pbaivaprq gung Ohssl frrf Natry nf fb vaperqvoyl aboyr naq tbbq. Gel gb yvfg nyy gur pbzcyvzragf fur fnvq nobhg uvz guebhtubhg gur lrnef gung nera'g nobhg uvf ybbxf be ubj terng gurve ybir jnf, naq lbh'er yrsg jvgu nyzbfg abguvat. V guvax fur vqrnyvmrf ure eryngvbafuvc jvgu uvz, engure guna uvz nf n crefba. Fur jnagf gb guvax gung vg jnf cher, vqrny ybir – nyy gur zber fb fvapr Snvgu'f jbeqf va Pbafrdhraprf gbhpurq n areir.

      • Avery says:

        V guvax Ohssl’f vqrnyvmngvba bs ure eryngvbafuvc jvgu Natry oyrrqf vagb ure ivrj bs gur crefba naq vg’f uneq gb fnl jurer bar raqf naq gur bgure ortvaf. V nterr gung Ohssl xabjf ol abj gung Natry naq Natryhf nera'g frcnengr, ohg fur'f fb jvyyshyyl oyvaq gb vg gung hayrff vg'f evtug va ure snpr, fur ershfrf gb erpbapvyr gur gjb. Gb zr, gung’f fgvyy n sbez bs vqrnyvmvat jub ur vf: lrf, Natry pna or n zbafgre, ohg ur jba’g or bar jvgu zr. Gur gvzrf fur npxabjyrqtrf uvf angher vf jura fur’f guebjvat vg va uvf snpr: va Nzraqf, vg jnf gb cbvag bhg gur pbjneqvpr bs fnpevsvpvat uvzfrys, naq va Fnapghnel, fur’f cvffrq orpnhfr ur’f fnvq bhgevtug gung ur unf flzcngul sbe Snvgu orpnhfr ur’f tbar guebhtu gur fnzr guvat, naq gung ur’f pnyyrq Ohssl bhg ba gur erny ernfba fur pnzr gb YN, naq vg’f nyy whzoyrq hc jvgu ure natre gbjneqf Snvgu naq ure evtugrbhf vaqvtangvba gung ur uvg ure. vqx, vg zvtug whfg or n frznagvp qvssrerapr—lrnu, Ohssl qbrfa’g oryvrir Natry vf n juvgr xavtug, ohg ng guvf cbvag va gur fubj gurve eryngvbafuvc vf qrrcyl ebbgrq va ure abg qrnyvat jvgu uvf qhny angher naq trggvat natel jura fur unf gb. V ybir Fnapghnel sbe ubj vg cvpxf ncneg gur creprcgvbaf naq rkcrpgngvbaf fur unf sbe Natry: ubj qner lbh qb guvf, lbh’er abg fhccbfrq gb qb guvf, ubj pbhyq lbh fvqr jvgu Snvgu (naq gur cneg bs lbh gung vqragvsvrf jvgu Snvgu) bire zr? NYFB ZL ARJ OBLSEVRAQ VF ORGGRE GUNA LBH, TBQQNZZVG.

        Uzz, V nyjnlf gubhtug gung Ohssl ynoryvat Natry n onq obl jnf zber ure npxabjyrqtzrag gung gurve eryngvbafuvc unq pnhfrq ure n ybg bs cnva naq fur jnf guebhtu ebznagvpvmvat nyy gung natfg naq frkhny sehfgengvba naq zlfgrel. Abg fb zhpu "ur jnf n znff zheqrere." Rira gura, jura fur’f ubarfg nobhg Natry’f synjf, gurl’er sebz n frys-pragrerq crefcrpgvir: ur jnfa’g bcra jvgu ure, fur qvqa’g nyjnlf gehfg uvz, rgp. Fur haqrefgnaqf gung vg jnf uneq orvat va n eryngvbafuvc jvgu uvz, ohg gung’f nf sne nf vg tbrf. Jura vg pbzrf gb Natry gur crefba, V guvax fur pbagvahrf gb ubyq rkcrpgngvbaf sbe uvf orunivbe gung nera’g pbzcngvoyr jvgu jub ur npghnyyl vf. Lbh pbhyq fnl guvf ybfrf ubyq bire gvzr, ohg ol gur raq bs gur frevrf V guvax gur yvtug gurl bevtvanyyl ercerfragrq gb rnpu bgure vf fgvyy cbjreshy orpnhfr gurl jnag gb oryvrir va jung vg fnvq nobhg gurzfryirf.

  40. Beri_adanwen says:

    Guvf vf jvgubhg n qbhog gur orfg eha bs rcvfbqrf va gur ragver frevrf, fgnegvat jvgu Onq Tveyf. RAWBL VG ZNEX.

    Abg vagraqrq nf n qvff gb gur erfg bs gur fubj, guvf vf whfg n pbafvfgragyl fgryyne ohapu bs rcvfbqrf. Gurer graqf gb or zber hcf naq qbjaf.

  41. Plactus says:

    • So listening to Buffy and Angel talk about their movie I can only think of The Dreamers, which came out after Buffy was off the air. (And yes, I know what the name of the movie they saw was, and that it's not a real movie.)
    • "There's more than one way to skin a cat… and I happen to know that's factually true." I don't like you anymore, Mr. Mayor.
    • Gung thl'f va gur frnfba sbhe perqvgf, vfa'g ur?
    • V erzrzorerq gurl cebabhaprq "Natryhf" qvssreragyl urer guna ba Natry. Pbhyqa'g erzrzore ubj.
    • Naq gurer'f gur zber snzvyvne cebahapvngvba. Cvpx bar naq fgvpx jvgu vg, thlf.
    • "I need a little bit of a break." So they did get back together at some point. Naq bire gur pbhefr bs gur arkg guerr rcvfbqrf, gurl'yy trg onpx gbtrgure naq oernx hc ntnva. Bl.

    Less immediate thoughts:
    • I'm a little confused why the shaman came to Giles. Only thing I can think of is when the Mayor called him to Sunnydale he stopped by (before or after seeing the Mayor) to ask if there was anything he could do to repay his debt.
    • I'm also not sure why Angel punched Xander rather than pretending to be civil to him (or really be civil to him, pretending to pretend… my brain hurts). If there's one person who'd use the slightest evidence Angel's gone bad to try to rally the gang to kill him, it's Xander. Best case scenario, Xander finds Giles first and Giles explains what's really going on. Worst case… the gang arrives before Faith can spill anything, someone frees Buffy, forcing her and Angel to either fight or give up the charade. It's a lot to risk.

    Body Count:
    • Skyler, killed by Faith.

    • Delta1212 says:

      β€’ So listening to Buffy and Angel talk about their movie I can only think of The Dreamers, which came out after Buffy was off the air. (And yes, I know what the name of the movie they saw was, and that it’s not a real movie.)

      Hah, you too?

    • tanbarkie says:

      Body Count:
      • Skyler, killed by Faith.

      Misread that as "Sylar, killed by Faith" and WTFed for a second.

      …Although. I would absolutely watch that show.

      • cait0716 says:

        Jryy gurer vf gung fprar va frnfba frira jurer fur'f orngvat hc Fcbpx, naq ur'f cynlrq ol gur fnzr npgbe, fb lrf, guvf pbaarpgvba gbgnyyl jbexf.

        V'z abg fgergpuvat ng nyy.

    • settlingforhistory says:

      I'm a little confused why the shaman came to Giles.

      I always thought the shaman contacted Giles when he found out that the Mayor's plan included Giles' Slayer.

      V erzrzorerq gurl cebabhaprq "Natryhf" qvssreragyl urer guna ba Natry. Pbhyqa'g erzrzore ubj.

      Rirel punenpgre frrzf gb cebabhapr gung anzr qvssreragyl.
      Fbzr fnl NAtryhf be NATRYhf be NaTRYhf, V qba'g xabj vs gurer vf na bssvpvny cebahapvngvba, V'z unccl jura gur jevgref xrrc vg gur fnzr sbe rnpu punenpgre.

      I'm also not sure why Angel punched Xander rather than pretending to be civil to him

      Because he could get away with it?
      Angel probably dislikes Xander the same as Xander dislikes him.
      I think Xander would have done the same if he ever had to play evil, because if there is ever a chance that no one would be angry with him for it, he would do it. "Oh, I had to, Faith needed to believe I was really evil." : )

      • Plactus says:

        I always thought the shaman contacted Giles when he found out that the Mayor's plan included Giles' Slayer.

        That makes sense, although Faith technically never was Giles' slayer.

        Rirel punenpgre frrzf gb cebabhapr gung anzr qvssreragyl.

        V frrz gb erzrzore ba Natry vg jnf pbafvfgragyl "na wrnybhf" jvgu rzcunfvf ba gur frpbaq flyynoyr. Pbhyq or jebat, vg'f orra lrnef.

        Because he could get away with it?
        Angel probably dislikes Xander the same as Xander dislikes him.

        I'm sure he does, but it runs the risk of messing up the plan. Guess I can chalk it up to his dislike of Xander overcame his better judgment.

        Creuncf rira jbefr pnfr guna gur bar V qrfpevorq nobir… Jrfyrl pnyyf va gur Jngpure nffnffva fdhnq, jub ol gvzr gurl trg gurer qrpvqr gb xvyy Natry bire nal bowrpgvbaf sebz Jrfyrl (abg Ohssl, jub jbhyqa'g or pbafhygrq)…

    • Seventh_Star says:

      yeah…i love the mayor, but i am such an animal person, and cats are the best. i can't get behind his comment in any way, shape, or form.

      v ybir jrfyrl sbe znal guvatf ohg nyfb orpnhfr ur fnlf "natryhf" pbeerpgyl.

      i honestly think that angel punched xander just because xander really does annoy him. mean but also kinda funny?

  42. Gorimek says:

    V bayl abgvprq gur sberurnq xvff jura erjngpuvat erpragyl.

    Vg znxrf gur sberurnq xvff Ohssl tvirf Snvgu ng gur ubfcvgny rira orggre!

    V ernyyl ybir gurve ybir/ungr eryngvbafuvc.

  43. Ginny C. says:

    Fun Fact: Chanting Veiled Pretend Soul-Restoring Demon-guy? Played by the same actor who was the Insane Mass-Murdering Locked-In-A-Box Vampire-guy from a few episodes back. "I have a problem with mothers — I'm aware of that." πŸ™‚

  44. Skyweir says:

    Nu, frg hc sbe "Guvf Lrne'f Tvey", "Jub ner lbh", "Svir ol svir" naq "Fnapghnel" ,sbhe bs zl snibevgr rcvfbqrf!

  45. @1Lcampesino says:

    Will you be watching Season 1 of Angel and Season 4 of Buffy side by side?

    • tzikeh says:

      Yes, Mark has a complete schedule of when each episode of Buffy aired compared to Angel and is going to watch them all in the order that they aired.

      • GirlWith1Eye says:

        vf gung abg pbhagvat "Rnefubg" fvapr vg qvqa'g nve va frdhrapr bevtvanyyl. v oryvrir gurl nverq vg fbzrgvzr orsber frnfba 4 cerzvrerq ohg qrsvavgryl nsgre frnfba 3 jnf bire; v whfg pna'g erzrzore jura rknpgyl. v xabj vg bevtvanyyl jnf fhccbfrq gb nve gur jrrx nsgre pbyhzovar ohg boivbhfyl qvqa'g sbe tbbq ernfba

    • pica_scribit says:

      You can check out the Master Schedule at the top of the page.

  46. @1Lcampesino says:

    It was definitely Surprise/Innocence for me when the show stepped it up to another level that I never thought was possible. It was at that moment that I realized I was truly watching one of the most spectacular shows ever made. However, there were a few episodes in early Season 2 (maybe around School Hard and Halloween) that the show definitely moved up a few notches from the mediocrity of Season 1.

  47. NyssaOfTraken says:

    Faith: What can I say? I'm the world's best actor.
    Angel: Second best.

    And THAT is how how you do a plot twist! One line that changes the whole story, naq abg whfg sbe guvf rcvfbqr, ohg sbe gur erfg bs gur frnfba! I was *completely* taken in by it…and I've seen this before!

  48. Auracounts says:

    Ok, I am rot13ing Mark's quote, because most of my response is only spoilery if read in context:

    "Jr abj xabj gung tenqhngvba qnl vf tbvat gb cynl n uhtr cneg va gur frnfba svanyr, be ng yrnfg V’z thrffvat gung"

    Bwaahahahahahaha. That one is a hindsight doozy, since, you know, gur gvgyr bs gur svanyr vf "Tenqhngvba Qnl."

    Also, "If the Scoobies graduate at the end of season three, what the fuck is this show going to do in season four??? This is a show about high school. Do they all go to different colleges? No college? What the fuck?

    Fvyyl Znex, nera'g lbh njner gung guvf bar Fgneohpxf gbja unf n uhtr avtugpyho, n uhtr pbyyrtr, yvxr 30 puhepurf, rgp rgp rgp.

    • ghostofdurruti says:

      V fjrne, gur Uryyzbhgu zhfg unir orra frevbhfyl shpxvat jvgu Fhaalqnyr'f trbtencul. Bgurejvfr, abguvat znxrf frafr.

      • Auracounts says:

        V fjrne, gur Uryyzbhgu zhfg unir orra frevbhfyl shpxvat jvgu Fhaalqnyr'f trbtencul. Bgurejvfr, abguvat znxrf frafr."

        Ahahahaha. I totally forgot about that. I'm pretty sure that Joss is aware how utterly ridiculous vg vf gb oryvrir gung gurve gval gbja unf nyy gurfr guvatf naq vf cenpgvpnyyl yvxr n zrgebcbyvf, nyorvg bar va juvpu Ohssl pna eha gb nal tvira ybpngvba va nobhg 5-10 zvahgrf, ohg V'ir nyjnlf nffhzrq gung'f cneg bs gur wbxr. V pna'g erpnyy vs gurl unir rire oebxra gur sbhegu jnyy be vafvahngrq nal zrgn njnerarff bs gung vffhr.

  49. alz says:


    Bar bs gur znva ernfbaf Frnfba 3 vf gur orfg. Orfg ovt onq…gur Sngure/Qnhtugre fbeg bs eryngvbafuvc gung qrirybcf orgjrra gjb IVYYNVAF vf fbzrguvat V'ir arire rira frr bgure fubjf nggrzcg, naq rira vs gurl qvq V qbhog gurl'q chyy vg bss.

    Vg vf fb tbbq.

  50. Imo says:

    V ungr rira glcvat gung orpnhfr V xabj gung vg’f onfvpnyyl n qrngu fragrapr

    Uhu, vebavpnyyl npphengr – vs n irel ybat naq qrynlrq qrngu fragrapr.

  51. Corey says:

    Which is more beautiful/heartbreaking: Buffy's "always", or Snape's?

    I vote Snape.

  52. Elisa says:

    All the Buffy/Angel hatred over here is so weird. I don't know if this is mostly from new watchers or previous ones. I love them together. They have amazing chemistry…so he's broody…who the hell cares? He respects her, loves her, they work well together. It's not perfect, but then this is Buffy. No relationship here is ever perfect, this isn't Twilight. πŸ˜€

    • Karen says:

      I dislike Buffy/Angel and I am not a new viewer. (Although I WAS older when I watched the show for the first time – I was 22- and maybe that has affected my view of the relationship.) I think it's a pretty immature relationship that is based off of a lot of emotions and idealization and not a lot of substance. I think it worked well enough in season 2 and I don't like HATE them or anything.

      But it's just not a pairing that appeals to me. I'm not invested in them in a couple at all. But I DO care that Buffy cares, if that makes sense. I love Buffy so much, so when she kills Angel and is broken over it, I'm not sad because of the relationship, but because Buffy is so destroyed.

      • Hanna_the_Glam says:

        This. I like Buffy as a person (and sympathize with her pain), and at this point in the series I started liking Angel as a person, but Buffy/Angel has always been eyerolly to me. I wouldn't say they have 'amazing chemistry' — although they do grow to have good chemistry over time. Angel just has 'plot device' written all over him until midway through this season, IMHO.

        I didn't watch the show until I was in my 30's, and that probably colors my perception. But I was a cynical teenager, so I suspect I'd feel about the same if I'd seen it then.

    • arctic_hare says:

      I don't hate them, it's just not my cup of tea. I think it worked in season two for what it is, and I was sad for its destruction because I'm invested in Buffy as a character, but by this point in season three, it feels like it's run its course and is getting a bit boring to me.

      • Karen says:

        Yeah, it definitely feels like Buffy/Angel has run its course by this point. Idk. By this point during season 3, I just don't really get them as a couple.

        Naq gura nsgre frnfba 3, gurl whfg tebj naq punatr fb zhpu nf vaqvivqhnyf gung gurl ERNYYL qba'g jbex nf n pbhcyr. Yvxr jura Natry fubjf hc va frnfba 7, vg'f whfg ernyyl jrveq orpnhfr ur'f yvxr fbzr jrveq gvzr jnecrq irefvba bs Natry sebz frnfba 2 bs Ohssl vafgrnq bs Natry sebz frnfba 4 bs NgF.

        • arctic_hare says:

          Bu tbq, gung jnf whfg fb ovmneer naq qvqa'g jbex sbe zr ng nyy, rfcrpvnyyl pbafvqrevat gung ur'q whfg ybfg Pbeqryvn (V qba'g guvax ur unq nal ubcr bs ure jnxvat hc sebz gung pbzn).

          • Karen says:

            Evtug? Ur unq WHFG ybfg Pbeqryvn NAQ Pbaabe. Fb uvf orunivbe va "Pubfra" vf whfg ernyyl bqq. Naq vg ERRXF bs cnaqrevat gb gur Onatry snaf.

            • _Bailey_ says:

              Gung'f rknpgyl jung vg jnf. V pna'g dhbgr ireongvz, ohg Wbff unf fgngrq (va gur pbzzragnel sbe gur rcvfbqr, V oryvrir) gung Natry jnf oebhtug onpx fvzcyl orpnhfr ur jnf fhpu n ovt cneg bs rneyl frnfbaf naq Wbff/gur jevgref sryg gung gur znwbevgl bs snaf jnagrq ubcr sbe Onatry.

              Rira vs vg jba'g punatr gur raq bs F7, V fvapreryl ubcr gurl'ir yrnearq bgurejvfr fvapr gura.

              • Elisa says:

                Ohg jub vf vg rknpgyl gung unq fb zhpu orggre purzvfgel jvgu Ohssl? Evyrl znqr zr jnag gb ones rirel gvzr V fnj uvz, ur pbhyqa'g unaqyr n jbzna gung qvqa'g arrq gb or fnirq nyy gur gvzr. Qba'g trg zr fgnegrq ba gur jnecrq Fcvxr guvat gung whfg qribyirq vagb fhpu n gjvfgrq nyzbfg-encr fprar gung V npghnyyl unq gb gnxr n fgrc onpx naq fgbc jngpuvat. Bhg bs nyy gur ybatre grez eryngvbafuvcf, ur jnf gur bar gung erfcrpgrq ure sbe jub fur jnf naq rira YRSG ure gb qb jung jnf orfg sbe ure.

                • @Ivana2804 says:

                  Jub unq orggre purzvfgel jvgu Ohssl? Fcvxr, bs pbhefr.

                  Jurgure n pbhcyr unf n avpr fjrrg urnygul eryngvbafuvc unf abguvat qb jvgu jurgure gurl unir purzvfgel. Va snpg, ol gubfr fgnaqneqf, znal bs gur GI'f snzbhf pbhcyrf jbhyq or whqtrq gb unir 'onq purzvfgel' fvapr gurl unq nagntbavfgvp naq gebhoyrq eryngvbafuvcf.

                  Abg gb zragvba gung lbh'er qrpvqvat gb vtaber frnfba 7, naq bayl sbphf ba gur eryngvbafuvc gurl unq jura ur jnf fbhyyrff, naq fur jnf qrcerffrq. Lbh fubhyq gura whqtr gur Ohssl/Natry eryngvbafuvc ol gurve 'eryngvbafuvc' va frnfba 2 jura Natry jnf fbhyyrff, vs lbh jnag gb znxr vg n snve pbzcnevfba.

                  • _Bailey_ says:

                    NYY BS GUVF. V unir ab ceboyrz nqzvggvat gung gur Fchssl eryngvbafuvc va F6 jnf gur zbfg haurnygul bar Ohssl'f rire orra va. Ohg gur eryngvbafuvc gurl ohvyq va F7 qbrf n pbzcyrgr 180 naq orpbzrf gur urnyguvrfg bar gur fubj rire unq. Va snpg, Ryvfn, fbzr bs jung lbh fnl cebirf gung Natry ybirf Ohssl zbfg (v.r. yrnivat ure) V frr nf cebbs gung ur QVQA'G. Guvf fprar — nf jryy nf uvf qrpvfvba ng gur raq bs "V Jvyy Erzrzore Lbh" — fubj zr gung Natry vf cresrpgyl jvyyvat gb gnxr njnl Ohssl'f ntrapl. Vg jbhyq or qvssrerag vs ur fnvq, "V nz qbvat guvf orpnhfr vg vf orfg sbe ZR," ohg ur qbrfa'g. Ur fnlf "V nz qbvat guvf orpnhfr vg vf orfg sbe LBH" jura ur unf ab evtug gb or gryyvat Ohssl jung vf orfg sbe ure. Fur vf abg n puvyq naq ur vf abg ure cnerag, naq fur unf gur evtug gb znxr ure bja qrpvfvbaf, n evtug Natry pbafgnagyl gnxrf sebz ure. Fcvxr, ba gur bgure unaq, rfcrpvnyyl va F7, vf cresrpgyl jvyyvat naq unccl gb jngpu Ohssl'f onpx naq fhccbeg ure qrpvfvbaf, zbfg abgnoyl ure qrpvfvba gb nggnpx Pnyro nsgre Snvgu neevirf, fhccbeg gung ab bar ryfr tvirf ure. Gb zr, F7 Fchssl vf gur orfg eryngvbafuvc Ohssl rire unq.

    • Plactus says:

      I'm a long-time viewer who never cared for them (as a couple, but I like the individual characters… well, I like Buffy and I came to like Angel, eventually). I was used to being in the minority back in the day (which certainly didn't help matters; V qba'g guvax V'q rire unir orra n uhtr sna bs "V Jvyy Erzrzore Lbh" ohg V jnf fvpx bs urnevat nobhg gur gura-hcpbzvat Ohssl/Natry pebffbire jryy orsber vg unccrarq, fb vg'f zl yrnfg snibevgr rcvfbqr, bs rvgure frevrf.), so I agree it's weird that the people who don't like them are more vocal here.

      • MrsGillianO says:

        Zl thrff vf gung Fchssl vf n zber pbzcyvpngrq naq nqhyg – naq qvssvphyg – eryngvbafuvc, juvpu znl jryy nccrny qvfcebcbegvbangryl gb gur snaf jub unat va gurer jura bguref unir zbirq ba. Gubhtu gur zbqf ng Jurqbarfdhr frrz gb unir gb fgnzc bhg fuvccre jnef FGVYY nobhg bapr n zbagu.

        • @Ivana2804 says:

          Jurqbarfdhr unq n cbyy ba Snprobbx, Qb lbh cersre Onatry be Fchssl, naq Fchssl jba va n ynaqfyvqr, gur ynfg gvzr V ybbxrq vg jnf 212 gb 69, jvgu 23 be 24 arhgeny ibgref. Fchssl unf jba rirel bayvar cbyy V'ir frra, vg'f nyfb #1 ba Enaxbcrqvn (arhgeny, aba-Ohssl-fcrpvsvp fvgr). Ohg gur zrqvn, Ragregnvazrag Jrrxyl va cnegvphyne, ner irel ovnfrq gbjneqf Onatry, naq uvtu fpubby frnfbaf va trareny. RJ graqf gb vtaber Fchssl, gur yngre frnfbaf, naq gur znwbevgl bs NgF. Vg'f dhvgr na vagrerfgvat qvfcnevgl.

    • 00guera00 says:

      I don't hate Buffy/Angel but I do think that their relationship is a very high school/ first love type of relationship. The type where you think you'll never change or grow apart and you have this feeling of betrayal if you even think you're not meant to be together forever.

      (naq V qba'g guvax vg urycf gung gurl oernx hc zbfgyl qhr gb pvephzfgnaprf. Lrnu, Natry yrnirf, ohg ur znqr vg irel pyrne gung ur jbhyq unir fgnlrq vs ur gubhtug vg jnf orfg sbe Ohssl. Fb gurl pna oynzr gurz oernxvat hc ba sbeprf bhg bs gurve pbageby (uvf phefr/inzcver/rgp) engure guna ba gur snpg gung gurl whfg qba'g pyvpx nalzber fb gurer vf nyjnlf guvf srryvat bs 'bs pbhefr jura guvatf trg orggre (V'z qbar onxvat b.B) gura jr'yy or gbtrgure)

      • Elisa says:

        Gung'f gur guvat gung vf urnegoernxvat gubhtu, gurl qvqa'g oernx hc orpnhfr gurl qvqa'g pyvpx. Gurl oebxr hc orpnhfr ur jnagrq ure gb unir n orggre yvsr jvgu fbzrbar ryfr…naq gura frevbhfyl gung arire ernyyl unccrarq ba gur fubj. V whfg jvfu gung vs gur jevgref jrer tbvat gb unir uvz qb fhpu n aboyr guvat, ng yrnfg ng gur irel raq fur fubhyq unir unq gung "terng ybir" – bs pbhefr V xabj gung vf n irel pyvpurq guvat. Ohg trrm, abobql ba guvf fubj rire tbg gb or unccl!

    • majere616 says:

      He's 243 years old.
      She's what 17?
      Explain to me how that is not skeevy beyond all reason.

      • t09yavosaur says:

        I personally don't find age differences skeevy, They are both consenting to their relationship. And really age is just a model number and Angel's model is stuck on 20-something. Plus I doubt Angel could easily find anyone his own age who isn't undead.

        I have actually had a conversation with my roommate about this in relation to Edward Cullen. She said basically the same thing, and as a counter-point I brought up the Doctor and his relationships and she said that one doesn't really bother her, even thought the Doctor is much older.

        • majere616 says:

          I have no real problem with age-gaps in ADULT relationships. The main problem is that Buffy is NOT an adult, she is a highschool student.

          • t09yavosaur says:

            "Adult" is just a society set number as well. In some society's it is 13. Developmentally on the other hand, I think Angel and Buffy are in about the same place. I've been told that girls finish developing mentally at about 17/18/19 depending on the girl and for boys it is at 20-something.

            Experience affects things but everyone has different experiences anyway.

            I'm not actually a die hard Angel/Buffy shipper, this is just my thoughts on the matter as a whole.

            • Mauve_Avenger says:

              Muddled thoughts ahoy.

              In my opinion it's not really age differences that make a relationship skeevy so much as it's the power difference that usually comes with the age difference. Unlike the Bella/Edward dynamic mentioned above Buffy's a pretty powerful being herself, so it's definitely not *entirely* or even mostly skeevy to me, but I think there are other forms of power to take into account that make things a bit more complicated.

              Adulthood definitely is a societally-defined term, but I think societies' expectations about what roles its members have at certain ages are extremely influential. It seems to me that a thirteen year-old for whom the common social script is "start assuming adult responsibilities at thirteen or fifteen" (which is likely what Angel was not-so-successfully brought up with, and seems similar to what Kendra was working with) is going to be a lot different than a thirteen year-old who's always assumed they can put that stuff off until they're eighteen or twenty. I think that difference evens out the further you get from the transition into adulthood (which I do think Buffy has passed, though not by much). I think it might help that Buffy (while she was working with the adult-at-eighteen script) was handed the "lol jk assume all the responsbilities NOW" script by the Watchers when she was fifteen, but Angel still has hundreds of years of adult experiences more than she does.

              "Everyone has different experiences," but a person who's 240 (or however old Angel is right now) is almost guaranteed to have vastly more experiences and a vastly greater variety of experiences than someone who's only eighteen, and those experiences are the basis of knowledge and power (especially since it seems there's supernatural power in attaining great age in the Buffyverse, like with Kakistos).

              • t09yavosaur says:

                I like what you said about power. I was focusing on age specifically so I didn't really think about all the things it influences. And I agree with your thoughts on adult mentallity;there are people my own age who I am friends with who still haven't found it.

                The experiances comment was just me realizing that that would be the most likely counterpoint and trying to dodge that without really thinking it through.

    • SelphieFairy says:

      I just find them really boring. I watched Buffy back when it first aired and at that time I was barely a teenager, so you'd think I would been all over it. But nope. I think the problem is they give Angel so little… actual personality lol.

    • UnstrungZero says:

      I'm not a new watcher, but I've never been a fan of Buffy/Angel. I don't hate them, and I get why people do love them, but it doesn't do anything for me. I think probably because, unfortunately since they're each their own title characters, I don't actually care for Buffy or Angel as people that much, though I like them both more as their individual arcs mature further down the line.

      That being said, I ship Buffy/a lot of people, though. lol

    • Mauve_Avenger says:

      I'm a new watcher, and for the most part I've just found that relationship kind of boring. After the reveal about Angel in LA in "Becoming," though, my opinion on them went from a zero to dipping down into the negative. I think that's where I got the impression that Angel doesn't necessarily like who Buffy for who she is so much as for what she represents for him.

      It probably helps that with few exceptions romance in media doesn't really do much of anything for me.

    • I am a forever fan of Angel & Buffy's love story. My favorite, in all the Whedonverse. Since the first hour.

      After years of fandoms, I gave up the battle between ships a long time ago, and don't feel the need to defend this love story. That's why I never react to the hatred.
      Most of Bangel fans don't try to argue with those who don't like them. Completely pointless.
      Because it exists by itself. Because it gave the show its history. Whatever your opinion is about them.

      I'm old enough to know that we're all touched/ moved differently by love stories. We all project our own feelings or desire. Our own experiences and past. There's no "it's better or it's less well".
      It's up to our own taste, and the hatred that is often shown against Bangel, says more about the person than the story.

      V yvxrq naq erfcrpgrq Ohssl naq Fcvxr'f eryngvba va frnfba 5 naq frnfba 6 orpnhfr vg unf n zrnavat naq vg jnf n arprffvgl sbe gur obgu punenpgref qrirybczrag. Gubhtu, V gbgnyyl ybfg vagrerfg va gurz va frnfba 7. Gur "ur unf n fbhy abj!" oberq zr gb qrngu. Ohg V haqrefgnaq gubfr jub fuvc gurz.

      For me, Bangel is the definition of a forever and impossible love, romantically tragic and poetic. And it is definitely not "just" a High School love story. ( since fvapr vg ynfgrq guebhtu gur frira frnfbaf naq rira va gur frnfba 8 pbzvpf. )
      And I have no problem and understand those who don't share this opinion. As long as they respect mine.

      • Elisa says:

        OMG I didn't decipher it before I pasted!! Sorry!

        V yvxrq Fcvxr jura ur jnf rivy. Jura gurl qrpvqrq "yrg'f znxr uvz yvxr Natry! Ohg qvssrerag!" Vg orpnzr evqvphybhf. V pbhyq unir erfcrpgrq Fchssl vs ur unq zber be yrff orra uvzfrys jura gurl tbg gbtrgure. Ohg ur jnf guvf jrveq bofrffrq punenpgre (V'yy znxr zl bja Ohssl!) jub gura orpnzr nohfvir naq gung'f jura nal ubcr V unq sbe gung eryngvbafuvc pbzcyrgryl erchyfrq zr. V pna'g jngpu frnfba fvk, V pna'g jngpu vaivfvoyr frk naq ivbyrag frk gung vf fhccbfrq gb or frkl naq gura gur ubeevsvp onguebbz frzv-encr fprar naq V qbag ernyyl haqrefgnaq jul lbh jbhyq jnag gung sbe Ohssl—yrg nybar sbe lbhefrys.

        • V qba'g xabj jurer V fnvq gung V jnagrq Ohssl gb unir gur eryngvba fur unq jvgu Fcvxr va frnfba 6….

          V qb yvxr frnfba 6 ( zl 3eq snibevgr frnfba ) orpnhfr vg jnf njshyyl qrcerffvat naq uhegvat orpnhfr vg'f ubj yvsr vf fbzrgvzrf. Ohssl jnf va gung xvaq bs zbbq naq ure punenpgre( yvxr gur bguref gbb ) unq gb tebj hc ol tbvat guebhtu gubfr riragf.

          V arire sbhaq gur frk fprarf orgjrra Ohssl naq Fcvxr, frkl be ryfr. Zbfg bs gurz jrer cnvashy naq ungrshy. Naq jrer zrnag gb or yvxr guvf. V'yy nyjnlf erwrpgrq gur nyzbfg encr. Abguvat pna rkphfr vg. Ohg Fcvxr jnf n inzcver jvgubhg fbhy, bofrffrq ol Ohssl naq vg jnf abg fhecevfvat pbzvat sebz uvz ng guvf zbzrag bs gur fgbel.
          Va zl bcvavba, nyy gubfr riragf, rira ungrshy, unq n frafr, va n punenpgref qrirybczrag zrnavat.

          V pna haqrefgnaq naq rawbl n fgbelyvar naq vgf checbfr, rira va n cnvashy jnl, jvgubhg yvxvat naq nterrvat gb jungrire unccravat va vg.

        • @Ivana2804 says:

          Fcvxr jnfa'g uvzfrys jura ur tbg vaibyirq jvgu Ohssl?! Hu… ubj fb? Ur jnf nyjnlf bofrffvir va ybir, ur nyjnlf gubhtug gung ybir vf nobhg oybbq fpernzvat bhg vafvqr lbh naq sver gung oheaf naq pbafhzrf, ur nyjnlf gubhtug gung gur evtug jnl gb trg n jbzna onpx vf gb vtaber ure pbafrag (Orpbzvat VV naq uvf qrpvfvba gb gvr hc naq gbegher Qehfvyyn va Ybiref Jnyx). Ur jnf n znff zheqrere naq n encvfg, whfg yvxr uvf tenaqfver. Gurl jrer rivy inzcverf. Qvq lbh zvff frnfba 2 be Ybiref Jnyx, jurer Fcvxr jnf obgu n cngurgvp qehax zbcvat bire Qehfvyyn, naq n inzcver jub jnf nobhg gb encr/xvyy Jvyybj (juvpu ur ntnva qvq va Gur Vavgvngvir)?

          V'z ernyyl phevbhf jung lbh yvxrq nobhg Fcvxr 'jura ur jnf rivy'. Ur nyernql unq nyy gubfr punenpgrevfgvpf gung lbh fnl lbh jrer fb fhecevfrq ol va yngre frnfbaf, evtug sebz Fpubby Uneq.

      • Karen says:

        Deleting for spoilers. Repost with rot13.

  53. Danny_SAP says:

    <img src="; />

    BUFFY Wasn't what I expected. I've never actually seen… Well, from the title I thought it was about food. ANGEL Well there was food. BUFFY Right. The… the scene with the… the food. So, feel like getting some hot chocolate? Or some cold shower?

    Shame this isn't a real movie. I'd probably enjoy it.
    <img src="; />

    GILES Demons after money. Whatever happened to the still beating heart of a virgin? No one has any standards anymore.

    In the previous episode Giles was sucking on a lollipop, now he's eating a banana? Is this a penis metaphor?
    <img src="; />

    CORDELIA I have something important to ask you. XANDER Important? Let's start calculating those odds, people. CORDELIA What are you doing Friday night? WESLEY Uh, I, uh, as always my sacred duty as a Watcher prevents me from… Why? CORDELIA I have a paper to write for English and you're English, so I thought… What? Is it so wrong to be getting an insider's perspective? I study best in a good restaurant, around eightish? Think it over? XANDER And on the day the words "flimsy excuse" were redefined, we stood in awe and watched.

    Oz and Willow are happy again and Cordelia is rubbing Xander's face in her moving past him. Poor Xander.
    <img src="; />

    WILLOW Faith would totally do that. Faith was built to do that. She's the do that girl. BUFFY Comfort, remember comfort, here? WILLOW I mean, please, does Angel come up to Faith's standards for a guy? Let's see, is he breathing? BUFFY Actually, no. WILLOW But Buffy, Angel. There's no way he would ever do that. I mean, you're the only thing in the world to him. BUFFY Sometimes I wonder. Angel and Faith have a lot in common. And there's so much he doesn't tell me.

    That's because he thinks of you as his pure young heart that he wants to keep safe from all the evils of the world.
    <img src="; />

    FAITH Everybody always asks, why can't you be more like Buffy? But did anyone ever ask if you could be more like me? ANGEL I know I didn't.

    I don't get this line. Is Angel saying he prefers Buffy to Faith or is he saying that he regrets soulful Angel's taste in women?
    <img src="; />

    BUFFY And how did you get him, Faith? Magic? Cast some sort of spell? Cause in the real world, Angel would never touch you and we both know it. You had to tie me up to beat me. There's a word for people like you, Faith. Loser. FAITH Uh huh. You're just trying to make me mad so I'll kill you. I'm too smart for that. Stick around.

    Faith? A word of advice: you're an idiot.
    <img src="; />

    BUFFY Psych

    So I love that this episode uses the audience's knowledge that Joss will kill puppies if he thinks it'll have an emotional impact. In most shows we'd be thinking up to this point that it must be some kind of ruse or trick or whatever… but with Joss Whedon he really could be having Angel lose his soul, again, and go on a murder spree with Faith. I think of this PSYCH as breaking the fourth wall a bit and giving us a much needed laugh after an episode of OH GOD OH GOD.
    <img src="; />

    FAITH What are you gonna do, B, kill me? You become me. You're not ready for that, yet.

    <img src="; />

    ANGEL You still my girl? BUFFY Always.


    • Hanna_the_Glam says:

      Va gur cerivbhf rcvfbqr Tvyrf jnf fhpxvat ba n ybyyvcbc, abj ur'f rngvat n onanan? Vf guvf n cravf zrgncube?

      Zl zvaq vzzrqvngryl jrag gb gur fprar va 'N Arj Zna' jurer ur unf gur srngure qhfgre va uvf zbhgu. Orfg. Cravf zrgncube. Rire.

    • Coghead says:

      It was really more "let's go steady and both wear rings to symbolise our love and bond." Like, I don't really get why people are pissed off by the Claddagh rings. There's a lot to angry about with Bangel, but that…? It wasn't a mark of ownership.

      And while the use of a possessive rankles, it's not like Angel's demonstrated serious actual possessiveness to her, otherwise. He was dealing alright with Buffy and Scott Hope, and ur rira raqrq hc yrnivat gbja sbe ure jura vg jnf gur YNFG guvat ur jnagrq. Gurer VF cyragl jebat jvgu uvf eryngvbafuvc jvgu Ohssl, ohg ur'f abg Fcvxriyl bofrffrq.

      • Coghead says:

        Well, actually, I mean… aside from the stalking…

        Dammit Angel, stop being creepy! It makes it hard to defend you. πŸ™

  54. Hanna_the_Glam says:

    Faith has an interesting jealousy thing going with regard to Buffy's love life, doesn't she? She hits on Scott Hope, she is eager to know if Buffy has ever gotten it on with Xander, and now she attempts to seduce Angel, ostensibly for tactical reasons, but it's clear she gets a kick out of the idea of 'stealing' him from Buffy. I'm not sure how much of this is just 'anything you can do, I can do better' vs 'I am acting out a sexual attraction to you by proxy' thing.

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      She didn't hit on Scott Hope, certainly not after she learned he was going out with Buffy. She just talked to Buffy about her love life, and then was angry and vengeful in Buffy's name when Scott dumped her. There was no boyfriend stealing there.

      • Hanna_the_Glam says:

        She flirted with Scott, but you're right; she backed off when she knew Buffy was interested, so that probably wasn't a jealousy deal. Ohg fur pbafvfgragyl funerf vagrerfg va gur fnzr thlf, nygubhtu cebonoyl abg sbe gur fnzr ernfbaf rnpu gvzr. Sbe rknzcyr: Evyrl, Fcvxr, Jbbq.

  55. Meltha says:

    So we have learned that Angel can pretend to be evil much better than Willow can. πŸ™‚

  56. Rayne says:

    I always thought that Buffy realized that Faith wasn't on the up and up when they went to get the books from the demon's apartment and Faith knew, without looking, where the light switch was.

    • Beri_adanwen says:

      On re-watch that's what I also thought. In that scene Buffy looked like she was suspicious about the demon's death. I figured after this she went to Giles and they concocted their plan.

  57. myeck says:

    A Scene I’d Like To See:

    The dark broody hero is brooding in a dark room, lit by a single floor lamp. He is reading something dark and broody by Sartre or Camus. He pauses, thinking about something. Then he picks up the Cliff Notes for the book and looks back and forth between the two for a while. Then he puts down the Cliff Notes and picks up Existentialism For Dummies.

  58. katiesdaddykat says:

    I think Faith did at least partially mean her somments in her first scene with Angel.

    Excpet that I don't agree with making deals with demons and killing people to get my way, or for fun, otherwise I m0ostly share the Mayor's values.

    I wish soembody would also start doing the French titles; a three way comapriuson with original and german is hilarious.

    I can usually only access these comments on weekends, and often not then either, so I'll try to get back Sat.

  59. Andie says:

    Angel Spoilers:

    "Pna Jrfyrl abg qvr? V ungr rira glcvat gung orpnhfr V xabj gung vg’f onfvpnyyl n qrngu fragrapr, ohg V yvxr uvz n ybg. HTU V NYERNQL ERTERG FNLVAT GUNG, OHG JUNGRIRE."


    <img src="; border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">

  60. Kari18212 says:

    HA Angel and Buffy coming out of that movie will never not be hilarious to me (although also pretty awkward honestly).
    The demon who isn't really a threat to humanity brings up some… interesting questions about the whole Slayer morality. Just…very interesting.
    Also, it's weird that I want the Mayor to stick around forever just to watch someone be nice and supportive towards Faith isn't it? Lol, obviously it would be better if that person was, you know, less evil, but I just feel so bad for her and how tough her life has been.
    Jvyybj, cyrnfr yvfgra gb Tvyrf jura ur guvaxf lbh'er abg ernql sbe zntvpny frpergf!
    Willow, please stop talking about Faith's taste in guys, it grosses me out a little bit. Luckily you make up for it with your 'I give you leave to go' line. Good advice to Buffy and extremely amusing delivery πŸ™‚
    Cordelia makes an excellent point Wes does have a nice voice πŸ™‚ Also, wow Oz, nice new hair!
    Ugh, even knowing that it's all an act, watching Angel pretending to be Angelus is super creepy. Especially when he's talking to Joyce. Big no-no Angel, you stay away from her!!
    Xander, saying I told you so about something that is guaranteed to be hugely painful and traumatic for people you love is gross.
    'I set him up with his wife' ILU GILES. Although that makes two demons that probably shouldn't be killed for the greater good in one episode (the same one that shows maybe a human should be so probably intentional).
    Damn this episode is good lol.

  61. fantasylover120 says:

    Oh Angel, you just can't stay good or evil for a whole season, can you? True story: my Dad off and on watched Buffy with me (usually when I came in and stole the remote and gave him no choice). One time he came he came in during Angel the first season and went "oh, is he evil now or good?"
    Daily Buffy Quotable:
    Wesley: Wait for Faith. Buffy: That could be hours. The girl makes Godot look punctual.
    Xander: Does the Council reimburse for that stuff? Giles: Did you get a receipt? Xander: Damn.
    "I've got two words that are going to take all the pain away: Minature. Golf."-Mayor

  62. Binx says:

    "If the Scoobies graduate at the end of season three, what the fuck is this show going to do in season four??? This is a show about high school. Do they all go to different colleges? No college? What the fuck?"

    They get stuck in a time warp and just keep repeating 12th grade for all eternity, like an older version of South Park.

    Lol. Jk. Or am I?

  63. kelseyofcake says:

    Yet another great episode in the line-up. I enjoy having this many good episodes all in a row instead of "good episode, now time for some monster-of-the-week cheesiness!" Not that I don't ever enjoy MoW days, but this is much more fun.

    -I don't know why, but it always amuses me to see Angel uncomfortable and awkward.
    -I also love it when we get some not-quite-evil demons on the show. This weasely guy is fun.
    -The mayor might be part of the reason I'm so suspicious of people who are too jolly and nice.
    -I actually feel pretty bad about that demon guy. He was kind of adorable! Poor guy.
    -Nooo, don't trust her, Angel! This is a side of him I really like seeing, by the way. I much prefer the caring, willing to help Faith and work with her Angel to the angsty broody Angel.
    -”See, any self-respecting demon would be living in a pit of filth or a crypt!”
    -Damn, that's a pretty effective light show for a bogus spell.
    -YAY! Cordelia is back in the Scooby meetings! Yes, very good.
    -”There is just the one group.” “Yes, and I am in it!” Cordelia, never leave me again.
    -Get over it Xander, you're not together anymore. It's really gross of you to get mad at your ex just because she finds another guy attractive. MOVE ON.
    -*PUNCH* “That guy just bugs me.” Oh how I wish I could do that sometimes.
    -Xander, enough with the gloating. It annoys me.
    -I'm still not clear on how they knew Faith was with the Mayor in the first place and knew to set up this whole charade. (or at least I wasn't until Mark speculated that Buffy told giles after seeing her with Angel, which makes sense.)
    -She just kissed Buffy and I got excited. She's evil and yet I continue to ship it. Nope, don't care. I completely give in to the hotness of this ship. Never again will I question it.
    -”I'm telling the counsel!” I love that Alexis played that like a kid telling mommy and daddy.

  64. "One more thought: If the Scoobies graduate at the end of season three, what the fuck is this show going to do in season four??? This is a show about high school. Do they all go to different colleges? No college? What the fuck?"

    Is it really about high school, though? The seasons we've seen so far are *set* in high school, for sure, and it has a high school-centric focus because the characters are that age. But I always saw it as being more a show about what it means for Buffy to be a slayer and how that is and isn't compatible with her life. All of those identity issues that we all love to talk about so much! πŸ™‚

    Gur snpg gung gur svefg frnfba V rire fnj jnf ovgf bs Frnfba Svir qrsvavgryl vzcnpgf zl ivrj bs guvf. ^^;

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      I watched the show from the first episode and I agree with you.

      Gubhtu V erzrzore jbaqrevat jung gur fubj jbhyq or yvxr nsgre uvtu fpubby. Naq gura V jrag ba gb ybir vg nyy gur zber va gur yngre frnfbaf.

    • Binx says:

      Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen this show as being "about" high school, even my first time watching it and for the first couple seasons. Sure, it deals with a lot of high school issues, but school isn't the focus. For me, I think the focus is Buffy's journey into womanhood/adulthood/just generally becoming who it is she's supposed to become and finding her footing. "Slayer" is really just a metaphor for "trying to figure out your destiny", and that's something every viewer can relate to.

  65. notemily says:

    Agh, so this is just a note to say that my laptop broke and I'll be off the grid for a couple of days. I still have my phone, but it doesn't work with IntenseDebate. This should be interesting–perhaps I'll finally get some of that mountain of library books read. <3 you all

  66. WhiteEyedCat says:

    I love this episode, though my favourite watching will always be the first time, I love being duped like that, when the episode suddenly yells "Surprise!" and then nothing is like you thought. It is a lot of fun re-watching, and trying to figure out exactly when Buffy and Giles' plan sprung into action.

    Angel's acting is really good, and it's interesting to think that he was Angelus a lot longer than he's been Angel (I think…my math may be off with that), but on the re-watch there were just some moments when he doesn't look like Angelus, and some of the things that he does, he just seems like Angelus Light.

    Also, has anyone actually told Faith to be more like Buffy? I can't remember anybody saying that, although I could be wrong. She keeps bringing it up, but it seems to be something that's going on more in her head than anywhere else.

    I love the relationship between Faith and the Mayor, he seems to know exactly how to treat her, and it's actually a really good, healthy relationship for her…aside from the whole evil, taking over the world thing.

    Fb rkpvgrq sbe gbzbeebjf rcvfbqr! Vg'f bar bs zl snibhevgrf sbe cher fvyylarff.

    • @Ivana2804 says:

      "Angel's acting is really good, and it's interesting to think that he was Angelus a lot longer than he's been Angel (I think…my math may be off with that)"

      He was 'Angelus' for about 150 years and 'Angel' for 100 (roughly)… then again, we don't know how much time he spent in the hell dimension, but if it was hundreds of years as Giles speculated in Beauty and the Beasts, then maybe he's been 'Angel' for far longer?

  67. DonSample says:

    Buffy Body Count for this episode:

    1 book selling demon, killed by Faith.

  68. DonSample says:

    1) The Mayor didn't create the Hellmouth, he founded the town of Sunnydale on top of the Hellmouth.

    2) I think that Buffy started to catch on to Faith when they were both in the demon's apartment, and she sees Faith reach around a corner to flip the light switch, without even looking. Buffy's got a very "How'd she know the switch was there?" look on her face.

    3) To get the real first watch Buffy experience, you need to skip the next episode, watch up to S03E21, then wait two months, (unless you've got a friend in Canada who can mail you a tape) before watching S03E22, wait three more months, and then watch S03E18, just before the start of season 4.

    Many Buffy fans were tearing their hair out in frustration with WB in the spring/summer of 1999.

    • TrampyMcBitca says:

      I remember all that!

    • Binx says:

      Yeah, and the WB…I mean, "CW", still makes me want to tear my hair out. Their never-ending BS breaks continue to punish me for keeping up with shows real-time and not simply waiting until they come out on DVD like I've always done. I swear, you just never know when you'll finish an episode and the promo for the next one will show that it's not coming for two/three weeks, a month, two months… It's like, "call me in 10 years when all these shows are good and over, the boxset price has dropped by 2/3rds, and I can watch as many eps in a row as I want". Except then you miss out on the awesome fandom discussions and theories & speculations…

      Unless someone starts a site like this and offers the opportunity to go back and do commentary on old shows πŸ™‚ Thanks, Mark.

      • SteveP says:

        Yes, thanks Mark! Fantastic opportunity, for those who came to BtVS a little late.

        Also … seriously …. do another watch of Buffy / Angel after you finish with Angel series 5, commenting on your earlier comments and the episode, and with no restrictions on spoilers … I, for one, would be well up for that!

  69. DonSample says:

    Another fun fact about this episode: Joss wanted Faith to kiss Buffy on the mouth, but the WB suits vetoed him, turning it into a kiss on the forehead.

  70. echinodermata says:

    It's a testament to Faith's character that in that scene where she's seducing Angel it's so very very clear to me she has ulterior motives and isn't sincere – it just doesn't mesh with her character at. all. And I love how obvious that is, to me at least, that that's not actually Faith. Which isn't to say there's no truth to what she said to him, but she'd never willingly go to him and be that open and vulnerable unless there were ulterior motives at hand.

    I think it's interesting that we really don't see Faith interested in killing anymore – she seems pretty disturbed after her fight with that mercenary demon guy and the blood on her hands. And after she killed that guy we haven't seen her happily killing and fighting anyone or anything, including vampires. So I really do think Angel's pretty wrong in believing she's been enthralled by taking lives. I find it more likely she's enthralled by the power of simply being dark. She's not expected to do the right thing anymore. She doesn't have to fight for the right thing. She can do whatever the hell she wants – she's free. That's what's seducing her. But I think she was first lured to the darkside because of the Mayor. She turned to him when she was at her most vulnerable and wanted some power and position restored. So she went to the most powerful person she knew of. And it turned out he's mightly paternal and protective and loving with her. Everything Faith's never had but always needed. So she goes with him and is essentially lured over to the dark because she found someone who actually treats her like she's special and worth showering gifts on and who tell her to drink milk and brings her to mini-golf and all that. It's sad, and I don't blame her for falling into that alliance when she's being presented with something so great to her – love and support. It's not her fault she didn't have anyone before, so I can't really fault her for not resisting her own personal kryptonite.

    Anyway, gif.
    <img src="; alt="Angel and Faith walking together; Xander walks up to them but Angel puches him and says 'That guy just bugs me' without breaking his stride'">

  71. Smurphy says:

    "Can Wesley not die? I hate even typing that because I know that it’s basically a death sentence, but I like him a lot. UGH I ALREADY REGRET SAYING THAT, BUT WHATEVER." – Gosh Mark. Why do you say these things. You know Joss Whedon has a time machine and is reading this blog and acting on it in the hopes to make you cry.

    Pna jr gryy Znex ur'f evtug nobhg guvf bar fb ur sernxf bhg rirel rcvfbqr orgjrra abj naq gur frnfba svanyr bs Natry? (slv V nz jevgvat guvf bayl nf n wbxr gb znxr crbcyr ynhtu. V jbhyq arire qb fhpu n ubeevoyr guvat)

    • Smurphy says:

      Oh and totally forgot about the twist and spent the entire episode saying (out loud) "Wait… this isn't right! This doesn't happen like this! WHAT'S GOING ON!"

      Love this episode.

    • cait0716 says:

      V'z whfg rkpvgrq gb frr Znex syvc bhg jura Jrfyrl wbvaf gur pnfg bs Natry, orpnhfr vg ernyyl qvq frrz yvxr ur jnf tbar sbe tbbq ng gung cbvag.

  72. Miriam says:

    I'm really confused.
    Yesterday, the 24th was the first time I could see a new review since Lovers Walk. Since then, there never appeared to be anything new on the site. What happened?
    Then yesterday, suddenly everything was all updated and wonderful, but what happened?
    So confused.

  73. Is the shaman a demon? Or just a guy from a tribe that wears blue veils?

    But yes, demons already are being shown as too varied for "Vampire Slayer" to translate into "Automatically Demons-of-All Races Slayer." Wait and see if, and how, this is or isn't developed.
    (As to the legal aspect, I think the Slayer's role is more akin to war than to law-enforcement. Which doesn't settle it, per se.)

    Too soon to get details of all the Mayor's motives regarding Faith, who I think is actually more than a year *older* than Buffy, based on how long she said she's been out of school.

    And I know it was part of his disguise as Angelus, but I really, really, really think Angel qua Angel enjoyed the chance to finally, as my ex-wife would say, "pop" Xander!

  74. Nick says:

    Pna Jrfyrl abg qvr? V ungr rira glcvat gung orpnhfr V xabj gung vg’f onfvpnyyl n qrngu fragrapr, ohg V yvxr uvz n ybg. HTU V NYERNQL ERTERG FNLVAT GUNG, OHG JUNGRIRE.

    Lbh qba’g xabj ubj evtug lbh ner, Znex…

  75. notemily says:


    So I like this episode a lot. I like when Angel gets to be badass for the Forces of Good instead of moping around all broodily like usual. But I just can't deal with the phrase "you still my girl." I had a (horrible, awful) boyfriend who used to ask me all the time if I was "his girl" and I was like "uh… not really comfortable with the concept of belonging to anyone?" and he would get SO SAD about the fact that he couldn't say he owned me or something. and he turned out to be horribly toxic and bad for me and I hope I never see him again ever on this earth, so when I hear Angel say that it just gives me this visceral sense of DO NOT WANT.

    Also "There's more than one way to skin a cat. And I happen to know that's factually true!" is my favorite Mayor line of all time. Although I would never want to see it in action because KITTY.

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