Mark Watches ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’: S03E15 – Consequences

In the fifteenth episode of the third season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Faith refuses to deal with her actions, and the Scoobies become involved in the drama. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to watch Buffy.

I am just in awe at this point. This is some damn fine storytelling, and the choice to move to a small, serialized batch of episodes has made this season so much more satisfying to me as a viewer. I’m generally a fan of serialized fiction, so I know that I’m biased. I don’t think I really need Buffy to become an entirely myth arc-based show. I like that we have one-offs, that the show can explore darker and sillier themes. (Can I just say that I think The X-Files had a large part in at least showing that audiences would be willing to sit through this? I’m not saying that Joss ripped off or was influenced by The X-Files directly, but that show paved the way for so much that came after it. Also, I will take any opportunity to gush about my favorite show of all time. Seriously, if there was a way I could pull it off, I would do Mark Re-Watches The X-Files.)

I didn’t think we’d get another story focusing on Faith directly after the last one, and a lot of the themes explored in “Bad Girls” are brought to an end that’s both upsetting, horrifying, and remarkably believable. I know that I poke fun (and rage) at the idea that Joss Whedon doesn’t want anyone to feel joy, but it’s really just my way of complimenting him and his team of writers for refusing to take the easy way out. There was a very clear and simple path that “Consequences” could have taken: redemption. This story could have been about Faith finding a way to reconcile her actions with her own personal belief system. I don’t doubt that that would have been an entertaining thing to watch. Instead, however, the writers pen an increasingly frustrating and unsettling narrative about how Faith’s actions have a ripple effect of consequences on nearly every person she’s come into contact with in Sunnydale.

What’s interesting to me is how the characters sort of teeter back and forth between believing they know what’s best for Faith and then rejecting that very idea. It’s such a difficult thing to deal with, and if any of you have had a friend who seems to be slipping away or making bad choices, it’s something you’ve had to deal with. How much can you get involved as a friend before you’re overstepping your boundaries? The various characters who all try to intervene on behalf of Faith have to deal with this. Buffy has to feel hopeless as she tries to demonstrate to Faith that Faith can trust her. Xander has to feel awkward and worthless as he deals with Faith’s rampant nihilism. Wesley has to cope with his own lack of control when he tries to take Faith away. Giles is faced with a Slayer he has no power over and doesn’t even respect him enough to tell the truth.

And then Willow. Sweet baby Gandalf, my heart just hurts for her and her unbelievably complex feelings. For real, that scene with her in the bathroom stall is too much for me to handle and I might have been a bit teary-eyed during it. Just because she cares for Oz doesn’t mean that her feelings for Xander have all gone away, and I think it was an interesting character choice for us to see that moment.

Oh, and Cordelia is just fabulous. I do miss her being a part of the Scoobies, though. Perhaps she’ll flirt more with Wesley and we’ll get to see her in more scenes? I CAN ONLY HOPE.

The one character that could have broken through to Faith was Angel, and it was a brilliant choice for him to compare his own life to hers. A great deal of what Faith is feeling is that she is powerful. Without being held accountable for her actions in the past, she feels she’s being attacked or limited when asked to take responsibility for Finch’s death. I think Angel was right to focus on that: she knew that she had the power to eliminate a future, and that power is addicting. Who else would know better than the man who was once Angelus? On the surface, there’s certainly something appealing to Faith about being above the law, and that sort of freedom isn’t something most people would give up. But I think that she mixes this idea of freedom too much with a negative idea of what it means to be accountable. No one is asking her to become Buffy, and they’re not asking her to stop being herself. As Giles says at one point, accidents happen. (I’d be interested in hearing more about those.) But just because something is an accident doesn’t mean that no one got hurt and that everyone can just go on their merry old way! Faith killed someone. She took a life that was undeserving of such a verdict.

This clearly is eating away at Buffy, and it’s why she seeks out her closest friend, Willow. Oh my god, how emotional is that scene in Willow’s bedroom? Alyson Hannigan, you are the very best Willow humanly imaginable, and I love your portrayal of a young woman caught between such conflicting emotions. She misses having Buffy as a close friend, but she resents that she’s been replaced. That line she delivers about killing something with her bare hands…I WINCED. Wow, she had no idea. Thankfully, she does give the best advice possible: TELL GILES. I like that this is basically an iteration of YOU SHOULD ALWAYS TELL AN ADULT.

So did anyone else nearly have a heart attack of anger when Faith tried to set Buffy up? I’m glad that writers didn’t have Giles believe Faith because I would not have believed that myself. His character is far too close and familiar with Buffy for him to accept that lie.

Still, what exactly do you do with a situation like this? The Scoobies all meet up to determine how to approach her, and it’s there that they realize just how ridiculously complex this is. She has trust issues, that much they know. So how do you navigate those valid issues without distancing her even further? You can’t make someone trust you. You can’t force someone to see you as a friend. It’s why I appreciate that Xander admits something awkward and uncomfortable as a method to reaching Faith. I mean, I can’t imagine that he was thinking that the whole group would be ecstatic to find out he had sex with Faith. I think he believed it was a legitimate method of getting through to her since he had a different relationship with her than anyone else.

Of course, the show doesn’t avoid how INTENSELY FUCKING AWKWARD this is. I’ve already spoken about how this affected Willow, but we also see how this admission hurts Xander. Buffy explains to him that Faith doesn’t exactly think highly of her sexual partners, and in that one sentence, she has no idea that she inadvertently destroys Xander. In terms of character continuity, it’s a fascinating follow-up to “The Zeppo” because it forces Xander to examine his ideas around sex. Perhaps he wanted the moment to be more special than it was. Perhaps he wanted Faith to treat him like he was special after the fact. Neither happened, though. Was he feeling regret while at his house that night? Was he feeling worthless or disposable? I think it’s an interesting thing to explore when two people have different ideas of what sex means to them. I personally know that I tend to develop emotional attachments before I have sex and it was something I had to accept and cope with early in my life. If that’s who I am, then I had to learn to accept that others were not like that, and that it was unfair to expect others to do the same thing or feel similar emotions.

Perhaps that’s part of the reason that Xander decides to confront Faith. Maybe he wants to demonstrate that very idea to her, that he accepts that their sexual history was just that one moment. I admit that I was surprised by how much of a disaster it turned into, and was increasingly disturbed by Faith’s refusal to believe Xander. Of course, she tries to turn the encounter into sex and what she does to Xander is just miserable. Fuck, it was so uncomfortable and wrong and horrifying. There’s no other way to describe it. She uses Xander to demonstrate what this is all about for her: power. She wants to hold that sort of absolute power over everyone around her.

The best way to do that is to leave, though. She knows that all these people are trying to interfere in her life, so why shouldn’t she just board a boat and leave town? She can leave all these people behind and start over and not have to worry about anyone telling her what to do. Running away from her problems is just what she does, and she’s a person of habit. However, I think the fact that Buffy saves her life is, at least in that moment, a significant thing for her. If Buffy had not shoved her out of the way of the crate that Mr. Trick dropped, she might have died. Despite everything that Faith had done, Buffy was still willing to save her. I think that on some level, that matters. It’s why she chooses to save Buffy. However, it’s entirely possible that she just did this to return the favor, and now believes that they are even. I initially agreed with Giles that this act seemed to be a sign of hope, that maybe there is a part of Faith that really doesn’t agree with her own philosophy. But the end of this episode assures me that Giles is wrong, and that Faith’s story is about to get a whole lot worse.

When the Mayor opens his office door to see Faith standing there, I knew in an instant that Faith was going to continue to pursue power. Having eliminated Mr. Trick, I think she recognizes that there’s an opportunity for her to continue to gain more traction for herself. It makes so much sense for her character, as much as I didn’t want to see it. Oh god, is Faith going to be the villain for the rest of the season? It’s so fascinating to me, but NOOOOOO WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

This goddamn show, I swear. So good!

About Mark Oshiro

Perpetually unprepared since '09.
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316 Responses to Mark Watches ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’: S03E15 – Consequences

  1. <img src=""&gt;

    R.I.P. Mr. Trick. Sorry, but Faith hates everyone who reads Cathy and/or Marmaduke. She seems perfectly fine with Family Circus, though.

    TRIVIA: K. Todd Freeman auditioned for Spike.

  2. <img src=""&gt;
    R.I.P. Mr. Trick. Sorry, but Faith hates everyone who reads Cathy and/or Marmaduke. She seems perfectly fine with Family Circus, though.

    TRIVIA: K. Todd Freeman auditioned for Spike.

    • Noybusiness says:

      So it wasn't one of those casting calls that specifies ethnicity. Interesting.

      IMDB says he's also an ensemble member of the Steppenwolf Theatre Company, which just makes me think of Darkseid's uncle Steppenwolf from DC Comics.

      • cait0716 says:

        Buffy casting calls tended to not specify ethnicity. They also tried not to specify gender where possible (lots of minor roles are gender neutral when you look at the dialogue) The lack of POCs is more incidental than intentional.

        • ambyrglow says:

          Hm, I find "more incidental than intentional" a somewhat troubling way to phrase it. It makes the show's racial imbalance sound not just unintentional–which I'll agree, it probably is–but unimportant, easily dismissed. And I don't think it is, or should be. I think it's worth picking apart the things that caused it–unconscious biases, structural racism inherent in the TV/movie-making industry, whatever other factors people want to bring to the table. (Were any of the show's writers or producers people of color? I have no idea, but I hypothesize the answer might play a part in why the show is so unbalanced on that front.)

          There's a wide gap between incidental and intentional, I guess, is what I'm saying.

          • cait0716 says:

            Yes, bad phrasing on my part.

          • hamnoo says:

            I think it's also worth mentioning that Joss Whedon shows, or 'Buffy', tends to employ certain actors for minor roles and then expand those on intuition. So a black Spike might not have survived as long … or he might have. We'll never know.

      • g_aurelia says:

        He's been in several Steppenwolf shows in the last few years.

    • hassibah says:

      Trick really should have taken his own advice about the Uzi, he could have taken them both out and it would have looked great with his suit.


      • sirintegra42 says:

        So much in TV could be solved if people read the 'why don't you just shoot him?' page on TV Tropes.

        • cait0716 says:

          Ohg Gnen jbhyq fgvyy or jvgu hf vs Jneera unqa'g obgurerq gb ernq gung cntr.

          • hassibah says:

            Naq gurer'f gur cbffvovyvgl gung Jneera jbhyq gbb.

            • sirintegra42 says:

              Bu gehr, nygubhtu znlor ur jbhyq unir sbhaq fbzr fcryy juvpu zvfsverq vafgrnq. V pna'g vzntvar Wbff xrrcvat ure nebhaq jura ur unq gur punapr gb xvyy ure VA GUR RCVFBQR GURL CHG URE VA GUR BCRAVAT PERQVGF. V unir fb znal guvatf V jvyy arire sbetvir gur jevgref sbe ohg gung'f arne gur gbc bs gur yvfg.

              • hamnoo says:

                Vg'f shaal ubj vaangryl V haqrefgbbq Wbff Jurqba onpx gura. V jnf 13 naq V unq bayl jngpurq unys bs frnfba 5 naq frnfba 6, abguvat ryfr hc hagvy gung cbvag. V fnj ure va gur perqvgf naq V whfg xarj gung fur jnf tbvat gb qvr gung rcvfbqr. V rira fnvq vg bhg ybhq gb zl GI.
                V qba'g xabj jul – ohg V whfg xarj. Vg jnf fbzr jrveq sernxl vaghvgvba.

        • hassibah says:

          Yeah but I mean he said as much exactly one episode ago. I expected better.

        • Sarah S says:

          This is why I fell in love with Darla in "Angel" back in season one. I mean, there's someone who just pulled out guns to shoot Buffy. I was so pissed when she was killed right after such an awesome moment as that.

  3. enigmaticagentscully says:

    I TAKE IT BACK I TAKE IT BACK the new Watcher is a dick.

    I’m tempted to use the ‘shut up Wesley’ gif again, but something tells me I’ll be needing it a lot in future, so I’ll reserve it for now.

    Can I just say how much I LOVE it that Faith is joining the Mayor now?? Urg, I just adore morally ambiguous villains and she’s gonna be a great one. How can we hate her? After everything she’s been through, how can we possibly blame her for the things she’s done and the attitude she has? She just wants someone on her side. She just wants to feel like she’s needed. I’m frightened of what an ‘evil’ Slayer might do, but I don’t want them to kill her either…I AM SO CONFLICTED RIGHT NOW. I LOVE IT.

    R.I.P. Mr Trick though. πŸ™
    Let us all have a moment of silence for the only non-white person to be allowed to live for several episodes.

    In other news, Angel continues to be annoyingly likeable. DAMN IT. But his stuff with Faith was all very well done and kind of nice? Like, for once I wasn’t bothered by his whole ‘I’m so tortured’ routine. His empathy was genuine, he actually seemed like the ideal person to get through to Faith, and it’s a shame that the Watchers pretty much stymied that plan.

    • tanbarkie says:

      "Het, V whfg nqber zbenyyl nzovthbhf ivyynvaf naq fur’f tbaan or n terng bar."

      Tbq, lbh unir ab vqrn ubj evtug lbh ner. Snvgu'f nep vf frpbaq bayl gb Jrfyrl'f va zl cnagurba bs "terng ybat-grez Jurqba punenpgre nepf."

      • @liliaeth says:

        Uzz, V'q fnl Fcvxr'f gur orfg, gubhtu V crefbanyyl ybfg vagrerfg va Jrfyrl ol f3 bs Natry. (bqqyl rabhtu jura rirel bar ryfr fhqqrayl fgnegrq abgvpvat uvz.)

        Gb zr vg jnf yvxr ur whfg orpnzr oebbqobl whavbe naq uvf ynpx bs rzbgvbaf fgnegrq obevat zr rirel fvatyr gvzr ur jnf bafperra.

      • darkwater says:

        Ure naq Jrf pregnvayl tb guebhtu gur zbfg punatrf nf crbcyr. V guvax Pbeql pbzrf va oruvaq gurz ernyyl.

      • Karen says:

        V qba'g jnag gb enax gurz, ohg Pbeql, Jrfyrl, Snvgu naq Fcvxr nyy unir terng punenpgre nepf.

        NYFB, V GRAQ GB YBIR OHSSLF N YBG GBB. Vg zvtug abg or nf qenzngvp nf gur bguref, ohg vqx. OHSSL WHFG ERNYYL FCRNXF GB ZR. VYU.

        • lyvanna says:

          Htu, GBGNYYL nterr nobhg nyy bs gubfr ohg zbfg bs nyy Ohssl. Va n jnl gur bgure nepf frrz n yvggyr zber boivbhf (abg gung gurl'er abg jbaqreshyyl pbzcyrk ohg vg'f n ybg bs tbbq/nzovthbhf/rivy pvepyvat nebhaq rnpu bgure), gur znva punenpgre qbrfa'g dhvgr unir gung bccbeghavgl gb or fb enqvpnyyl qvssrerag nf gurl fgvyy unir gb pneel gur fubj fb Ohssl'f nep vf n yvggyr zber fhogyr ohg sbe zr crefbanyyl whfg nf vagrerfgvat, rzbgvbany naq fngvfslvat, cnegvphyneyl va gur yngre frnfbaf. Fcrnxvat trarenyyl, gung'f gur guvat gung xrrcf zr pbzvat onpx gb gur Ohsslirefr gvzr naq gvzr ntnva… gur snpg gung gur punenpgref qb punatr naq tebj fb betnavpnyyl naq snfpvangvatyl.

    • Ginsue says:

      Every watcher but Giles is a dick, really.

      I also adore moral ambiguous characters. I think I sensed that Faith was going to be one of them. I kind of guessed she would be more of the anti-hero instead of an antagonist, though. Me and my silly expectations. Faith is just so conflicting. For me, I have both extremely negative and extremely positive emotions for me. Lately, my reactions have been extremely negative, like I am watching a train wreck. She tries to rationalize a lot of her actions. I don't think she felt absolutely nothing, as she claimed the last episode, but she had done some damn good rationalization for herself. To her she saves more people than she kills, so "five for five."

      • gonzoron says:

        Every watcher but Giles is a dick, really.

        Nu, gung rkcynvaf vg. Jrfyrl vf qvpx, ohg bayl hagvy ur'f abg ybatre n Jngpure. πŸ™‚ Gura ur'f 10 xvaqf bs njrfbzr. Jrfyrl vf cebonoyl zl snibevgr punenpgre va gur Ohsslirefr, ohg V'ir orra gelvat abg gb fdhrr gbb zhpu nobhg uvz va ebg13, fvapr rira gur snpg gung ur fheivirq Onq Tveyf jnf n fhecevfr gb Znex.

        BX, jnvg, Serq zvtug or zl snir… ab jnvg, Jvyybj… ab, Gnen, ab, Pbeql (N:gF irefvba)… netu.. BX, V pna pbasvqragyl fnl Jrfyrl'f zl snibevgr ZNYR ohsslirefr punenpgre, rkprcg znlor sbe Fcvxr. TNU!

        • dazyndara says:

          Bu Gnen πŸ™ Bu Serq πŸ™

          • tanbarkie says:

            Bu Jrfyrl. πŸ™

            • Rob M says:

              Univat rzonexrq ba guvf erjngpu, V'z fgvyy qernqvat univat gb trg guebhtu "Ubyr Va Gur Jbeyq." V thrff V'yy unir gb gerng gur raq bs Ohssl F6 nf gur gevny eha sbe F5 bs Natry… Tbqqrff, gurfr fubjf pna or qrcerffvat…

          • Apathy says:

            V jbaqre ubj Znex'f tbvat gb ernpg gb Gnen'f qrngu :p

            • alz says:

              Crefbanyyl V guvax Wblpr jvyy nssrpg uvz zber…V fgvyy srry yvxr Gur Obql vf gur orfg rcvfbqr bs gur fubj naq cebonoyl jbhyq znxr zl Gbc Gra Yvfg sbe orfg fvatyr ubhef bs gryrivfvba V'ir rire frra…lbh whfg unir gb qjryy ba ure qrngu sbe n jubyr ubhe gurer vf ab rfpncr. Jvgu Gnen bgure ERNYYL vzcbegnag fgbel ryrzragf unccra nyzbfg vzzrqvngryl. Gurer vf ab qjryyvat…

              • UnstrungZero says:

                Gung vf bar tbbq guvat V yvxrq nobhg Qnja nsgre Gnen'f qrngu. Vs lbh guvax bs gur punenpgref nyy nf cynprubyqref sbe gur qvssrerag cnegf bs gur ivrjre, V'z ernyyl tynq gurl FUBJRQ Qnja svaqvat ure naq whfg fvggvat gurer naq qbvat rknpgyl gung. Qjryyvat. Hagvy fbzrbar svaqf ure. Va n jnl, gura V tbg gb srry yvxr cneg bs zr qvq, gbb.

                Be qbrf gung znxr ab frafr ng nyy? yby V'z penc ng rkcynvavat.

              • TrampyMcBitca says:

                "Jvgu Gnen bgure ERNYYL vzcbegnag fgbel ryrzragf unccra nyzbfg vzzrqvngryl. Gurer vf ab qjryyvat…"

                Vg sryg gb zr yvxr Gnen jnf xvaqn gbffrq nfvqr bapr fur qvrq (rkprcg ol Qnja). Rira Jvyybj whfg yrsg ure gurer. Fur pbhyqa'g unir ng yrnfg guebja n furrg bire ure orsber tbvat ba ure oynpx zntvp ovatr?

    • Delta1212 says:

      Once again, that's how I think I remember feeling about Wesley the first time I watched the show. This go around, I'm getting such a strong sense of a guy trying to do the right thing but being so completely out of his element that he has difficulty even recognizing how unprepared he is to deal with the realities of his job that I find it difficult to hate on him.

      He seems like a genuinely good person that just completely lacks the type of life experiences that he needs to behave appropriately in his current setting. The fact that he has trouble recognizing this means that his attempts to help wind up going horribly wrong, but he does seem to want to help rather than hurt any of the people around him.

      • Karen says:

        IA IA. I don't think Wesley is malicious. I think he is TRYING to do the right thing. But he's one of those people that knows all the theory and then just tries to apply it to the real world. But sometimes the real world is more complicated than rules set down in books.

      • settlingforhistory says:

        I feel so bad for him the entire time, because he is so out of his element. There are no more controlled circumstances anymore and he doesn't have Slayers who live by the handbook, this is probably not what he has imagined being a Watcher would be like. When he says at the end of this episode "What can I do? I want to help." it almost made me cry, he's like a kicked puppy.

    • Batyachanna says:

      I think that this is why Mark’s understanding of the Wish a lacking continuity us invalid in hindsight. While the characters may not remember Wishverse events, what we saw there informs everything about Faith and Buffy. While I think calling Faith a “potential version” of Buffy is unfair, we always have to remember that under different circumstances maybe it would be Buffy at the Mayor’s door.

      • Avit says:

        That's a good point. Erased memories, alternative futures — they're fascinating character explorations, demonstrating could-have-beens and once-weres that, after all, are rooted in something which still remains with that character in the present continuity. I'm reminded of Mushi-shi, which I recently was able to watch — rira gubhtug Tvaxb ab ybatre erzrzoref uvf puvyqubbq naq uvf yvsr jvgu Ahv (bu tbq gur uhznavgl, rgprgren), gung qbrfa'g znxr gur ivrjre'f xabjyrqtr bs uvf cnfg nal yrff eryrinag be fvtavsvpnag.

  4. Laneswitch says:

    God dammit Wesley! i hate you. i hate you more than almost anything for what you did, and i won't forgive you until something equally horrible happens to you. Until then, i hate you. grrrrr.

    Buffy is the first show i have ever watched that wasnt something like Spongebob, which means that its the first thing i ever saw with a plot. Faith is my favorite character because she is the first one i ever saw go through my second favorite character arc, which is good guy turning bad. this means that no matter how much i hate her as a person, I'll love her as a character. 

    N tbbq thl gheavat onq, ungvat gurzfrys naq gura fjvgpuvat gb tbbq jvgubhg qhpxvat gur pbafrdhraprf vf zl snibevgr nep. bapr ntnva, Snvgu vf gur svefg punenpgre V'ir frra va gung nep.

    A note to Faith, you should stop watching old black and whites and watch more modern television, because if you did you would know that dumping the body in a river NEVER WORKS. EVER. if i have learned anything from television, it's this.
    Also, since happiness is free and for everything else there's mastercard, i think you're covered.

    • Noybusiness says:

      "A note to Faith, you should stop watching old black and whites and watch more modern television, because if you did you would know that dumping the body in a river NEVER WORKS. EVER. if i have learned anything from television, it's this. "

      Reposted for truth.

  5. hpfish13 says:


    Everything needs to stop being awful, right now! I just can’t handle this episode; it’s one thing going wrong after another. Wesley having them investigate, Faith threatening Buffy into not telling, Faith continuing to ignore that anything is wrong, the Mayor having evidence and gets the police to question them, Faith telling Giles that Buffy killed Allan, Faith almost killing Xander, Wesley ruining everything (seriously he’s gone from book 3 & 4 Percy Weasley to the book 5 & 6 version in one episode), and, lastly, Faith joining forces with the Mayor.

    All of that aside there were a few things that made me happy in this episode.
    •Cordelia and Wesley’s adorably awkward interactions
    •The good guys realizing the Mayor is up to something
    •Angel investigating and putting his lurking skills to good use.
    •Angel trying to help Faith and really connecting with her
    •And that’s it….there is very little good.

    Joss why must you destroy us so entertainingly?

    Official stuff:
    Episode 15: Consequences
    Written by Marti Noxon, Directed by Michael Gershman
    Original Airdate: 2/16/99
    Even though Giles thinks it’s a waste of time, new Watcher Wesley orders Faith and Buffy to investigate the murder of Finch. With everyone, including the police, questioning them, Buffy and Faith soon find themselves arguing over whether or not to tell the truth about their involvement.

    And because I couldn’t post it yesterday, here’s the info for Bad Girls
    Episode 14: Bad Girls
    Written by Douglas Petrie, Directed by Michael Lange
    Original Airdate: 2/9/99
    Mr. Trick brings the swords of El Eliminati vampires to Mayor Wilkins, who doesn’t want anything to get in the way of the upcoming “dedication.” But Buffy and Faith are determined to eliminate the Eliminati and nothing will stop them.

    I see what they did there….Eliminate the Eliminati, so clever guys…………..

  6. enigmaticagentscully says:

    "Seriously, if there was a way I could pull it off, I would do Mark Re-Watches The X-Files"


    I can dream, right?

    • knut_knut says:


      Yesterday I had a dream that Mark did a re-watch of Lost and it was SO EXCITING because I'm the only person ever who hasn't seen that show. And yes, sometimes I dream about MDS, but mostly it's about spoiling Mark and it's terrible.

    • Auracounts says:

      I'm totally down for this, but only after he finished Buffy/Angel, and Veronica Mars.

      • enigmaticagentscully says:

        Well he does realistically have a lot of shows lined up, so I doubt it'd ever really happen.

        I have to admit, much though I'd love to see a re-watch of my favourite show of all time, I'd be far more excited to see Mark Watch my second favourite show of all time, Babylon 5.

        A big part of the fun is seeing him be really unprepared, and you don't get that on a re-watch!

        • dazyndara says:

          BABYLON 5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          (sorry, got a little excited there :P). I'm watching it for the first time ever, and am up to season 4. V jngpurq "Gur Vyyhfvba bs Gehgu" ynfg avtug (gur bar jvgu gur ercbegre), naq onfvpnyyl pbhyqa'g fgbc zlfrys sebz tbvat "nnnnnnnnnetuuuuuuu" sbe gur ragver cebcbtnaqn oebnqpnfg ng gur raq

          • LadyViridis says:

            Mm. I am… interested to see the reviews/discussion of B5 because I now have an irrational hatred of the show after watching it weekly with friends for nearly two years. We finally FINALLY convinced the guy who suggested it to give it up about midway through S4. By that point I was like "I don't even care that I don't know what happens, I just don't. ever. want. to see. this. again."

            More thoughts in Rot13 to avoid expectation spoilers:

            V srry yvxr vg unq fbzr vagrerfgvat vqrnf, ohg jbj, gur grpuavpny qrgnvyf ner xvaq bs nznmvatyl snvy? Naq lrf V xabj gurl unq ab ohqtrg ohg GUNG VF AB RKPHFR. Lbh pna cebqhpr tbbq fghss ba ybj ohqtrg (frr: Ohssl, Qbpgbe Jub, Fgne Jnef bevtvanyf) vs lbh unir n tbbq fgbel/npgbef/rgp.

            Frnfba 1 jnf na bxnl vagebqhpgvba naq V qvqa'g zvaq vg. Ohg V xrcg urnevat gung vg jbhyq ghea vagb guvf rcvp guvat naq vg qvq… ohg sbe zr vg jnf na rcvp fabbmrsrfg. V qvqa'g pner nobhg gur cybg, juvpu gbbx jnl gbb ybat gb rira trg gb, V ungrq zbfg bs gur punenpgref, naq V tbg qvfgenpgrq nyy gur gvzr ol ubj cbbeyl qbar gur neg qverpgvba/qrfvta/npgvat/qverpgvat/rqvgvat jnf. Gur jubyr rkcrevrapr jnf whfg vagrafryl sehfgengvat. Znlor vg jnf zber vzcerffvir va gur 90'f, V qba'g xabj, ohg V jnf fhcerzryl haqrejuryzrq.

        • snapsnzips says:

          I would LOVE to see a B5 watch happen. That was the only the second TV show I watched to make me entirely happy and resulted in the only fan letter(email) I've ever written.

        • Rob M says:

          I can't decide whether I want Babylon 5 or Veronica Mars more, at least at this juncture. I suspect following Buffy/Angel, Veronica might feel like it was treading a lot of the same ground, so I'm tending towards B5 being the better followup (but, considering how long Mark's list of "shows to watch" is, he might decide neither takes his fancy and do something completely different instead).

          • nanceoir says:

            I think Mark's said something about Cowboy Bebop happening this year, and he's apparently excited for Supernatural, so it'll be awhile, is my guess, for either VM or B5.

            I guess that just means I'll have time for (another) B5 rewatch. πŸ˜€

        • nanceoir says:

          Do you know how much I love B5?

          I've gotten hold of, like, all the B5 novels (except the ones that are some of the TV movies), and I'm going to read them all. ALL.

          And let me tell you, it's gonna be a mixed bag.

          (But I don't care because it's more B5, hurray, huzzah, and hi keeba!)

        • @RadagastWiz says:

          "I'd be far more excited to see Mark Watch my second favourite show of all time, Babylon 5. "

          It IS on the list.


    • @Jody_927 says:

      Maybe we can liveblog some of everyone's favorite episodes? I love the X-Files and it would be fun to share the experience with everyone here. And I'm due for a re-watch.

      I also vote for Veronica Mars to be watched next after Buffy and Angel.

      • cait0716 says:

        I think Mark has already confirmed Cowboy Bebop. But that only has twenty-some episodes.

      • sirintegra42 says:

        I'm looking forward to that and Being Human personally, although I seem to remember it's way down the list. There's only twenty something episodes so far so it wouldn't take him long to get caught up. I'm guessing he's doing the original? Otherwise I may cry. Ernyyl V whfg jnag crbcyr gb funer zl cnva jvgu. V pna'g guvax bs nal bgure fubj juvpu unf ybfg fb znal bs vgf znva pnfg va fb srj rcvfbqrf. Bqqyl rabhtu V'z rawblvat guvf arj frevrf gubhtu fb sne, nygubhtu V qb yvxr zl uhzbhe cvgpu oynpx.

    • pica_scribit says:

      That would be the thing that would finally get my butt in gear to actually watch that show. I've only seen a handful of random episodes, but it looks like it would be worth a deeper look, and, well, I trust Mark. If he says it's good, it's probably good.

      • dazyndara says:

        I hadn't watched it at all, and am working through season 1 at the moment. It's SO GOOD, you won't regret it!

      • enigmaticagentscully says:

        Well it is the best show in the entire universe, so there is that.

        It even has Mark Sheppard in it! Although, to be honest, what doesn't?

        I actually had the opposite experience to you – back when I first came across Mark, when he was reading Harry Potter, it was his love of The X-Files that made me inherently trust everything he said about other fiction. Because he was clearly a man of taste and distinction.

    • dazyndara says:

      I never watched The X-Files until Mark's enthusiasm for the show finally got to me, and it's SO AMAZING! I'm still working through season 1, and even though I probably couldn't read it cause it would be spoilerific, I agree it would still be awesomesauce if Mark could re-watch it!

    • LucyGoosey says:

      YES SERIOUSLY. And not just because I've been going through the episodes I skipped while watching the first time when I was 16 (weird picks too- so many good ones!- Dod Kalm, War of the Coprophages, Quagmire, Kill Switch, Mind's Eye, Monday, Field Trip….)

    • Karen says:

      I am #Team Downton Abbey after Mark finishes with Buffy and Angel. There are only 16 episodes!

      lol. But it's a very different show from any show Mark has done on the site so far, so I shall continue to hope in vain.


    • As someone who is in the middle of the X-Files pretty much because of all the hype I heard about it from this site, I would be so happy if this happened.

    • usrbs says:

      Actually, mark could reread and re-evaluate his remembered reactions. It's different from doing first impressions type reviews, but it's not necessarily inferior. In some ways this can lead to deeper discussion. And just think, Mark, you'll be able to read all the rot13!

  7. arctic_hare says:

    Buffy's nightmare at the beginning is creepy as fuck.

    I'm convinced that Allan was there to try to warn them about the mayor or something along those lines. I think he was going to betray him.

    Faith's line about doing the world a favor sounds so horrible and callous, but I don't think she really feels that way. I think she's trying to convince herself more than anyone else that she doesn't care, that she feels nothing. That's what the line reads as to me. Just look at her face when she picks up the photo, and the way she says that he came out of nowhere. But because she doesn't trust Buffy completely thanks to Revelations and the hypocrisy she perceives on her part (not entirely unfairly), she closes up again and pulls away when Buffy expresses her understanding of that fact. I really believe that Faith is putting on an act because she doesn't feel comfortable exposing her vulnerabilities to Buffy.


    Okay, Giles is back in my good graces officially for that. <3 Of course he'd believe Buffy and not let on to Faith. And I'm so glad he recognizes that Faith needs help, not judgment and punishment from the Council.

    So I guess you were listening to all that, Wesley, but you somehow failed to hear/comprehend that last part. More on that later, though.

    LOL, you think because you had a one-night stand with her you're qualified to help her through this difficult time, Xander? I think not. How fucking laughable.

    I feel significantly less sorry for Wesley in this episode, and significantly more inclined to reach through the screen and just shake him and yell because GAAAAAAAAAAH WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU EVEN DOING. THAT IS NOT HOW YOU TREAT SOMEONE SCARED AND TRAUMATIZED. OH GOD, MY POOR FAITH. YOU FUCKED IT UP, YOU ASSHAT. Oh, if only she'd been allowed to stay with Angel. πŸ™ πŸ™ πŸ™ My heart hurts at the thought of what could have been. I'm normally ambivalent on Angel, and often am bored by his scenes with Buffy, but I really liked him in his scene with Faith because he GETS it. He gets her. He could have helped her so much. AND THEN WESLEY RUINED IT ALL. Just when I could see that Angel was going to get through to her. πŸ™

    Juvpu vf rknpgyl jul V ybir gurve fprarf gbtrgure yngre ba uvf fubj, naq jul V jvyy nyjnlf guvax fur fubhyq'ir fgnlrq ba Natry engure guna tbar onpx gb Ohssl. Fur svg vagb gung frevrf fb zhpu orggre guna fur qvq ba Ohssl.

    I'm with Buffy on this, honestly. I know that Faith has done some awful things in this episode. But she needs help and compassion, not to be thrown behind bars for the rest of her life. She needed Angel's help and Wesley probably did fuck things up beyond repair. Also I can't help but feel that some of Willow's distaste towards Faith comes from a place of jealousy – over Buffy spending time with her, over Xander having sex with her, and I have to side-eye that. I think it colors her feelings about it to some degree – hell, she admits it herself. The way that she puts it says a lot: "sharing my people". Not just the implication that they belong to Willow in some way, but that Faith is an outsider to her, and always has been. None of this group ever *really* accepted her into their inner circle, and that's part of what's driving her to bottle up her trauma over what happened: her inability to trust any of them, with good reason. They shut her out for so long, and now they expect her to run into their arms and share everything? Keep dreaming. You're reaping what you've sown, and I don't think any of them is really off the hook here for Faith's feeling alienated from them to this degree. Every one of them played a part in it. They pushed her away and now she's unwilling to let them in during this difficult time, big surprise.

    Bye-bye, Mr. Trick. You were fun while you lasted.

    And now Faith has joined the Mayor. DUN DUN DUN. Hardly surprising – everyone else failed her in some way except Angel (who, really, the Scoobies should've thought of first when discussing what to do about her – if anyone could understand what she's going through, it's him, not any of them, and especially not Xander of all people).

    • Laneswitch says:

      I absolutely agree with everything you just said. Faith is definatly torn up about Finch but is just hiding it, and the others are all kind of to blame a little too. Especially Wesley. I wish they had just given her a chance, rather than loosing intrest after she had been around a few days

    • Noybusiness says:

      Natry naq Snvgu znxr fhpu n tbbq grnz gung abj gurl ner bssvpvnyyl ner bar.

    • guest_age says:

      Yeah, it's really hilarious how in what comes off as a genuine attempt to try to help someone who was universally agreed to be in need of some help, Xander gets very nearly raped (he says "no" at least twice) and almost choked to death. But Faith totally needs compassion, because murdering someone, attempting rape, and almost choking a second person to death is totally sad and she just needs help. That's something to feel badly for her about, but Xander deserves derision for trying to help.

      I say this as a Faith fan, mind you, and I agree that she needs compassion and help–I just think it's ridiculous how cruel your "How fucking laughable" comment comes off in context.

      • arctic_hare says:

        Let me clarify – I don't find the scene where she attacks him to be laughable, I find the fact that he thinks his one-night stand with her means he CAN help her when he brings it up at the group meeting, to be laughable. I don't fault him for wanting to help, I just find it ridiculous that he thought that made him a qualified person to help her. Let's not forget that prior to that sexual encounter, they didn't really have much of a relationship at all; their interactions had been pretty limited, actually. Just him meeting her (and objectifying her), and then riling her up to go after Angel in Revelations and blaming everything on her when Buffy confronted him about it in the library.

        • guest_age says:

          Even taking it at that value, is it expected that most teenage boys think of sex the way Faith does, particularly when it had been their first time? As Mark stated in his review, sex is an emotional thing for some people and not for others, and there's nothing wrong with either of those stances (or any in between, for that matter). For Xander, it's obvious that sex is, in fact, an emotional thing. For Faith, it's not. Is it "fucking laughable" for him–who you're right, he doesn't know her that well and seems surprised and hurt when Buffy tells him how Faith views sex because he didn't know her well enough to even know that much about her–to incorrectly believe that Faith feels the same way about their encounter as he does? He's wrong, obviously, yes. Possibly even deluded. Absolutely he is wrong, and out of all of them, the only one who had a shot at getting through to her was Angel. But your comment had the tone of shaming him for thinking they might have a connection after what happened between them, which I find really troubling, particularly in light of what did happen to him in that room. It feels unnecessarily cruel. He was wrong. Calling it "fucking laughable" is rubbing salt into the wound.

          And yes, I've read your past comments and I realize that you're not inclined to show Xander any mercy. I'm not asking you to. I'm just offering a counter opinion on the subject of what happened in this particular episode.

    • sirintegra42 says:

      Your first point is pretty much exactly what I had before my download decided to break on me and I couldn't watch the rest of the episode. Bah. Anyway, I agree with all of your Faith feelings.

      Buffy comics spoilers: V'ir urneq gung Tvyrf yrsg nyy bs uvf cbffrffvbaf gb Snvgu va uvf jvyy va gur arj pbzvpf, juvpu frrzf yvxr n avpr qrirybczrag nygubhtu vg qbrf znxr zr fnq sbe Ohssl. Nyfb, fur'f jvgu Natry shyy gvzr va uvf frevrf abj. V'z abg fher vs V'yy or ernqvat gurz zlfrys gubhtu nf V ernyyl pna'g sbetvir Wbff sbe xvyyvat Tvyrf naq V abj jnag Natry gb qvr va nyy gur sverf, rira vs vg jnfa'g ragveryl uvf snhyg.

    • Karen says:

      I think Allan was there to tell them about the Mayor too. I think it's more clear in the scene the way it was written in the draft of the script that I own, but yeah. I think he was going to rat the Mayor out. Maybe he was getting a bit freaked out when the Mayor made plans to become invincible?

    • Inseriousity. says:

      I can't really agree with the Xander comment this time. One-night stands are fine, I have nothing against them, if both parties are aware that that is all it is. Despite the anvil-sized hints (kicking him out the room when done), he's naive to it all and I think part of him knows that Buffy's right about it but his issues/hints towards an uncompassionate family means he tries to search for a connection in other places (whether that's sexual or not).

      Ng yrnfg hayvxr Cnexre (hetu jung n fyrnmront) Snvgu qbrfa'g gel gb yrnq uvz ba be uvag ng nalguvat zber. Despite this disagreement, I do agree that everyone should've said ANGEL straight away!

    • notemily says:

      Also I can't help but feel that some of Willow's distaste towards Faith comes from a place of jealousy – over Buffy spending time with her, over Xander having sex with her, and I have to side-eye that. I think it colors her feelings about it to some degree – hell, she admits it herself. The way that she puts it says a lot: "sharing my people". Not just the implication that they belong to Willow in some way, but that Faith is an outsider to her, and always has been. None of this group ever *really* accepted her into their inner circle, and that's part of what's driving her to bottle up her trauma over what happened: her inability to trust any of them, with good reason. They shut her out for so long, and now they expect her to run into their arms and share everything? Keep dreaming. You're reaping what you've sown, and I don't think any of them is really off the hook here for Faith's feeling alienated from them to this degree. Every one of them played a part in it. They pushed her away and now she's unwilling to let them in during this difficult time, big surprise.

      Love this.

  8. Karen says:

    SO, I actually have the script for this episode. A friend of mine was at a garage sale a few years back and a guy who had worked on a bunch of shows was selling his old scripts, and my friend knew I was a big Buffy fan, so he bought me a Buffy script! Here is a picture of the title page:
    <img src = ""&gt;

    The writing at the top says “Optic”, so I’m guessing that this guy worked in optics? And at the bottom of the page it says that this is the second draft, so yeah. ANYWAY, something I’ve always wanted to do is to watch the episode while looking at the script to see what changes there were (if any), but I haven’t done it yet. BUT I AM GOING TO DO IT NOW FOR YOU. This is probably going to be long and not very interesting, so I won’t post my transcripts and of the differences and clog up the comments if no one wants to see them, but if you’re interested let me know, and I’ll share them with you.

  9. Karen says:

    SO, I actually have the script for this episode. A friend of mine was at a garage sale a few years back and a guy who had worked on a bunch of shows was selling his old scripts, and my friend knew I was a big Buffy fan, so he bought me a Buffy script! Here is a picture of the title page:
    <img src=""&gt;

    The writing at the top says “Optic”, so I’m guessing that this guy worked in optics? And at the bottom of the page it says that this is the second draft, so yeah. ANYWAY, something I’ve always wanted to do is to watch the episode while looking at the script to see what changes there were (if any), but I haven’t done it yet. BUT I AM GOING TO DO IT NOW FOR YOU. This is probably going to be long and not very interesting, so I won’t post my transcripts and of the differences and clog up the comments if no one wants to see them, but if you’re interested let me know, and I’ll share them with you.

    • etherealclarity says:


    • darkwater says:

      I have a script for Innocence. All safely packed in a plastic cover with cast photos and what not.

    • @Jody_927 says:

      I have a signed copy of the script from (rot13'd) Uhfu. I need to get a frame to hang it on my wall. And please post the differences. That would be fun to see the changes they made.

    • Tina says:

      I'm interested !!!!

    • Rayne says:

      Just an fyi, the shooting scripts for most Buffy episodes are available at Back when the shows were airing, I posted them on my website (The Buffy Shooting Script Site – how original!) but my site was shut down by Fox lawyers. I still managed to get the scripts out there after that though.

      I always found the shooting scripts to be a fascinating read because you got a bit of insight into what the writers were thinking. (Plus drafts were so much fun because you got to see how things changed!)

    • Andrew says:

      Optic would be a reference to Optic Nerve, the company that did most of Buffy's prosthetics. The guy selling it probably worked there.

      • Karen says:

        OOOOOH. EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE NOW. lol. In the script, the highlighted bits are all the ones related to Trick and his vampire henchmen.

  10. Kickpuncher says:

    Thoughts on Consequences:

    -Wesley/Cordelia: A romance for the ages.

    -“Here to watch… Girls.” AH, BUT WHO WATCHES THE WATCHGIRLS?

    -Oh man, the way the Mayor doesn’t seem to understand why shredding isn’t cheering him up is… a little bit sad.

    -Wesley you absolute dink.

    -Noooo my W/X heart is breaking

    -Welp. This Faith/Xander scene is fucking brutal.

    -And on a shallow note, Faith’s pants are the MVP of this episode – Most Valuable Pants

    -This is the first time in season three I’ve been able to take Angel half-seriously. Probably due to the lack of Buffy.

    -I can understand why Wesley is doing this, and given the circumstances, I can’t entirely fault him, but if you look up “not helping” in the dictionary you will see his picture.

    -So did Oz pull a Rory this episode or what?

    -Good night, sweet Trick, and fights of Slayers sing thee to thy rest. ;_;

    -One’s the mayor of the most demon-infested city this side of Cleveland. One’s a loose cannon Slayer who doesn’t play by the rules. THEY FIGHT CRIME.

  11. settlingforhistory says:

    This is an ok episode, too Faith-centric for me, because I’m not much of a fan, but it raises and answers some interesting questions about Slayers and the Watchers Council.

    Strangely fitting that Faith would dumb the body in the river and make Buffy’s nightmares about drowning (which I guess she often had after Prophesy Girl) even worse.
    (Vg’f nyfb gur svefg vafgnapr bs bar bs gurz fgneevat va gur bgure’f qernz.)

    Oh Cordy and Wesley are so funny together.
    Wesley is like a little teenager around her. “I’m here to watch girls.” Smooth Wesley.

    “You think he talked, to them?” Is this why Alan was there, to betray the Mayor? Wouldn’t surprise me after all the scary stuff he’d seen in that office.

    It’s so sad when Faith says “He came out of nowhere” She is looking for someone to tell her it wasn’t her fault, because she does feel guilty, even if she pretends to be completely indifferent.

    Did the Mayor send the cops to Buffy and Faith?
    That they ask them about the wooden weapons seems weird, but we’ve seen before that they are not as clueless as the rest of the citizens pretend to be so they could have some up with that idea on their own.

    That scene between Willow and Buffy is what I love about their friendship so much.
    Buffy just hugs her and Willow is instantly in comforter mode, completely forgetting her rant.
    Juvpu znxrf vg rira uneqre gb jngpu jura gurl ner ab ybatre guvf pybfr naq Ohssl tbrf gb Fcvxr be Gnen jvgu ure ceboyrzf naq Knaqre vf gur bar jub oevatf Jvyybj onpx sebz rivyarff.

    As we learn from Giles, there would probably never have been any severe consequences for Faith if Wesley had not stepped in. It was after all an accident and the Council could have gotten rid of the police.
    Still, I don’t blame him, he was only doing his job and he was not close to any of the Scoobies or to Faith. Jura ur qbrf gur fnzr guvat va gur fcva-bss, gung'f jura V trg natel.
    Giles would have maybe done the same thing in the first few months on the Hellmouth.

    Willow crying in the bathroom is so heartbreaking, even though I’m a bit unsure why she does. Is she still in love with Xander or is it simply that Xander didn’t tell her about it because they are not as close as they used to be?

    Oh god, the incredibly uncomfortable Xander/Faith moment.
    This episode is why I can never find Faith in anyway sexy; she is way too scary for that. What a nice memory: the girl he lost his virginity to nearly strangled him to death the next time they met.

    “By the order of the Watchers Council of Britain.” Why does this sound so hilarious? I just can’t take it serious.
    It probably doesn’t help that they lose Faith minutes after capturing her. Is there anything the Council ever does right?

    The scene at the docks is a great character moment for Faith.
    Faith is clearly a troubled person and on the way to becoming evil, but she can’t let Buffy die.
    Given what we learn at the end of the episode it could have been a ruse to let Buffy believe there is still good in her, but I think she genuinely wanted to help Buffy.

    Of course the most important part of this episode is Faith going to the Mayor.
    Never in a million years had I expected this, it’s just too strange and shit is getting so real now.
    So the Mayor has immortality and a Slayer on his side. How can the Scoobies possibly beat that? Dun Dun Dun!

    • enigmaticagentscully says:

      "By the order of the Watchers Council of Britain"

      RIGHT? Why are they British? This seems to confirm that most, if not all, the Watchers are British, and that at least those in charge are British. What's with that? Why?? I really need a history of the Watchers right now please.

      Also, it felt a little odd to me that they would say 'Britain' instead of 'Great Britain'. I mean, I know the two are basically interchangeable, but the Watchers don't seem the types to leave off the 'Great' if they could possibly help it.

    • Noybusiness says:

      Lbh zrna jura ur cergraqrq gb or ba gur ergevriny grnz'f fvqr naq yrq gurz nfgenl?

      • settlingforhistory says:

        Lrf, orpnhfr V jnf fb fher ur jbhyq znxr gur fnzr zvfgnxr ntnva.
        V jnf fb natel, rfcrpvnyyl nf uvf pbaqvgvba jnf whfg "qba'g unez Natry".
        Vg'f n fvta ubj zhpu ur unf tebja nf n punenpgre gung ur jbhyq cebgrpg Snvgu sebz gur Pbhapvy rira gubhtu fur unq gbegherq uvz rneyvre.

        • Noybusiness says:

          Nu, V frr, grzcbenel natre. Jryy, yvxr ur fnvq, ur jbhyq unir orra sbbyvfu gb gehfg gurz. Abg gung gung jbhyq unir fgbccrq Byq Jrfyrl.

    • Ginsue says:

      Strangely fitting that Faith would dumb the body in the river and make Buffy’s nightmares about drowning (which I guess she often had after Prophesy Girl) even worse.

      The dream fits well with the continuity of Buffy, with her drowning the first season finale. I also experienced a drowning dream where someone I lost faith (pun unintended) in stood above the surface and watched me drown. It is a common enough dream that occurs when people feel overwhelmed and isolated.

    • John Small Berries says:

      Is there anything the Council ever does right?

      Well, they appointed Giles to be Buffy's second Watcher, and they… uh…

      No, I think that was about it.

  12. enigmaticagentscully says:

    Oh, something I forgot to mention – I thought Buffy was a little harsh on Xander? I mean, fair enough saying ‘Faith doesn’t take the guys she sleeps with seriously’ but did she have to add that they were ‘a huge joke to her’?
    She knows full well that it was probably the first time Xander had sex and it seems a little mean and unnecessary to say something like that. IDK, I guess she wasn’t really thinking, but I actually felt more sympathy with Xander for once than with Willow.

    • @liliaeth says:

      Is it bad to say that I rarely if ever feel sorry for Willow. Maybe it's her character type, I don't know, girls very much like Willow used to bully me when I was a kid and as a result I have no patience whatsoever for her type of character.

      • enigmaticagentscully says:

        You don't have to say if you're not comfortable with talking about it, but I'd be interested to hear in what way the girls that bullied you were like Willow? She doesn't strike me as the type.

        The girls that bullied my friends and I were much closer to Cordelia. The brash, confident, partying types who thought being smart was something to be ashamed of and looked down on those who they perceived as weak for being shy or socially awkward. Or, on occasion, wearing the wrong shoes or not tucking your shirt collar into your sweater or not rolling up your school skirt to make it shorter.

        • @liliaeth says:

          A lot of it has to do with the cutesiness. That fake act of 'I'm so cute, I'm so adorable', seeming sugar sweet in front of the teachers and thinking they're better than you because they're smarter and then lashing out with words as soon as the teachers have their back turned.

          Worst was when they pretended to be nice, but yet when you were in an even class, they'd still rather move their desk up to the two desks on the left than sit next to you. Supposedly because they 'want to sit with their friends'

          It's hard to explain, but there's just this attitude with girls like that that's sneakier and more painful than the obvious Cordelia type. Let's just say that there's nothing more painful than getting excluded. It's why I've always identified more with girls like Marcy from s1

          • enigmaticagentscully says:

            Aww that sucks. I guess in a way I was lucky in that my teachers were fairly aware of how nasty these girls were. I mean, not that they DID anything about it, but still. I guess in the end it's the same principle – making you feel like an inferior person, whatever the actual reason.

            Though if you want to talk painful, one of them once hit a hockey ball at the back of my head, and those motherfuckers HURT. πŸ˜‰

            • @liliaeth says:

              Don't remind me, worst I ever had happen was when I was about 13 and a group of five boys attacked me while I was driving home from school.

              Of course since I kicked back, I got punished as well, still angry with the principal for not dealing with them. (that was the last year I spent in that school though, the next year I spent two of my happiest school years in a boarding school, if I hadn't flunked that second year I would have loved to stay there *pouts*)

          • Bill says:

            I get that willow reminds you of that kind of person (I don't know that I've ever met someone like that, but it sounds familiar), but if memory serves correctly she's not like that. Again, just going on memory so someone back me up here. She is genuinely nice and its not an act she puts up for others. I feel for you though, as I have been able to identify with xander and angel (weird mix) waaay more than other characters because of good or bad experiences in my own life. I'm sure you know this, but its good to appreciate what every character is going through, even if you don't identify with a struggle. Also, who is Marcy? I don't remember this person.

            • @liliaeth says:

              The invisible girl (though admittedly I suck with names*g*)

              And yeah, I know that at this point my dislike of Willow is somewhat irrational. It's weird sometimes how previous experiences may have us have more tolerance for the behavior of some characters than that of others.

              • Bill says:

                … I don't remember that episode either. WTF is wrong with me?!? Usually if even a one-shot character is good enough to leave an impression on you, you remember the name. I for one still remember the name of a one-shot character in an episode of scrubs named george because I found it to be so moving. I'm sure you got the name right and I need to go watch that episode. I for one have an irrational hatred of Evyrl for no reason other than ur vfa'g natry naq ur whfg ybbxf yvxr fbzr wrexf V unir xabja, as ridiculous as that sounds. I am starting to remember bullies like that from my childhood, but I wasn't really the target as much as those around me. Maybe. At least I was not hit in the head with a hockeypuck.

                • Bill says:

                  To clarify the hockeypuck remark, I don't mean to make fun of an old wound, but I think thats kind of hilarious. Though thats on a different string of replies. I laugh at things I shouldn't sorry.

                  • enigmaticagentscully says:

                    It's ok, it is kind of funny in hindsight. Though it was a hockey ball, not a hockey puck. No ice hockey at my school, just regular hockey! Though a quick Google shows me they're about the same weight, so you get the general idea.

                    Usually they just threw orange peel and gum if anything, that was really the only time I had something that might constitute a physical attack.

                    Ah hockey. The game where a bunch of vicious teenage girls get handed large heavy sticks and a heavy ball and are set loose of each other. It's right up there with dodgeball on the 'who the fuck thought up this game' list. There's also always much whacking of the ankles, but I think that fairly standard for the game, it wasn't personal.

            • Gorimek says:

              "Also, who is Marcy? I don't remember this person."

              That brilliantly sums up Marcy's problem!

          • lyvanna says:

            I had a few girls like that at my school. I was even friends with one of them, when it suited her. She was just so 'cute and lovable' that it was hard to be angry at her even when you had a legitimate reason to be. And I'll fully admit that I was also totally jealous of her as well because boys just adored the helpless act (which it was).

            I wouldn't say the description suits Willow down to a T but the cutesy/adorableness tends to rub me up the wrong way rather than make me sympathise with her.

            Vg frrzf gb or n onfvp nepurglcr gung Jurqba er-hfrf dhvgr n ybg naq rnpu gvzr V fgehttyr jvgu pbaarpgvat jvgu rnpu punenpgre – Serq, Craal, Xnlyrr.

    • Noybusiness says:

      I'm still surprised he was put on "look for Faith" duty after she nearly proved first-hand the fact that female-on-male rape is possible, and then tried to strangle him.

    • Tina says:

      She was almost slut-shaming him actually.

  13. Jerssica says:

    I missed posting this yesterday, but I figured everyone would need a little levity with how many feels there are in these episodes. So here is my favorite video of Jack Plotnick, aka the actor playing poor stabbed Deputy Mayor Allan:
    I find this video hysterical for some reason and I was so excited to see Plotnick on Buffy when I first watched it a couple years ago…then he died and everything became horrible and sad. Curses to you Whedon!
    Also, YAY WESLEY!

    • Jerssica says:

      Correction to my post: I meant Yay Wesley that he's around in the first place as I find him awkward and hilarious. Not so much yay for his actions in this episode. He's only doing what he thinks he should due to his training.

  14. misterbernie says:

    Did not yet get around to a rewatch, so I’ll stick to the German title for now: Konsequenzen. Which, well, okay, not much to fuck up there.
    So, etymological note! consequence comes from the Latin deponent verb consequor (that is, it is declined as a passive, but has an active meaning), a compound of con- 'with' and sequor 'follow', which, via PIE* *sekΚ·- is cognate to English 'see'.

    *My field of interest has the BEST ABBREVIATION OF ALL TIME.
    OF. ALL. TIME.

    • I'm learning about PIE right now in me Language, Mind, and Society class.

      Is it really the best abbreviation of all time? Learning about a proto-language has never made me so hungry ^_^

  15. Seriously, if there was a way I could pull it off, I would do Mark Re-Watches The X-Files.
    Um, get yourself a Time-Turner and get on that, dude.

    I think it’s an interesting thing to explore when two people have different ideas of what sex means to them. I personally know that I tend to develop emotional attachments before I have sex and it was something I had to accept and cope with early in my life.
    I think it also speaks to a familiar character type (and by character type, I also mean personality type, since it isn't restricted to fiction), where a guy who seems like he's a lustful horndog—and in fact may see himself as a lustful horndog—actually wants an emotional connection with someone. It's not just about the sex, the physical pleasure of it, to Xander. Even if maybe he thought it was before.

    • etherealclarity says:

      V ybir gung gurl pnyy onpx gb guvf vqrn va Frnfba 4 jura Naln cebcbfvgvbaf uvz. "Fgvyy zber ebznagvp guna Snvgu." Va gung jvfgshy gbar, yvxr ur jvfurf uvf svefg gvzr unq unq n ovg zber rzbgvbany jrvtug gb vg.

    • Noybusiness says:

      Well yeah, he fantasized about Buffy being in love with him, not just hooking up with her.

  16. Inseriousity. says:

    Ahh this episode is so distressing and entertaining all at the same time. Angel was starting to break through that massive wall she had built to protect herself (perhaps after her watcher's death) and then BAM wesley and the watchers' council ruins it. Aww darn it.

    RIH Mr Trick but if it paves the way for Faith being evil badass-action then I'm not too sad about that!

  17. Fuchsia says:

    Bu, naq Pbeqryvn vf whfg snohybhf. V qb zvff ure orvat n cneg bs gur Fpbbovrf, gubhtu. Creuncf fur’yy syveg zber jvgu Jrfyrl naq jr’yy trg gb frr ure va zber fprarf?

    Be, creuncf, na ragver frevrf? Lrnu, whfg znlor.

  18. tanbarkie says:

    I did this for Season 2 after "Surprise," because that's when the overarching plot of the season kicks into high gear. Seems appropriate to post here as well:



    And here… we…. go.

    <img src="; width="400">

  19. knut_knut says:

    Things I was not expecting: THIS. This whole arc, the fact that this show is so enjoyable (yes, I thought Buffy would be kind of silly because I’m a vampire-bigot), pretty much everything.

    Faith- WHAT WHAT WHAT ARE YOU DOING? This episode reminded me that the Scoobies are all kids. That sounds kind of weird, and I can’t really explain it, but seeing Buffy break down in front of Willow drove home how confused and conflicted she must be.

    Why can’t we do a Mark Re-Watches the X-Files? It would be so much fun!! Except that you have a million other shows to watch… *sigh*

  20. @liliaeth says:

    I still have a hard time watching that scene where Faith tried to rape and/or kill Xander. With no idea which of the two she would have done if Angel hadn't stopped her. Vg'f bar bs gur erny funzrf bs f7 gung vafgrnq bs qrnyvat jvgu guvf nggrzcgrq encr, gung vafgrnq va Qvegl Tveyf, Snvgu trgf gb wbxr nobhg orvat Knaqre'f svefg.
    (juvpu fubhyq unir orra pbzcnerq gb jung Cnexre qvq gb Ohssl, va retb, Snvgu gnxvat nqinagntr bs Knaqre)

    • Noybusiness says:

      Bar guvat gung arire punatrf nobhg Snvgu vf ure jnecrq vqrn bs znyr/srznyr vagvzngr eryngvbafuvcf, anzryl gung thlf nyjnlf jnag vg naq fgvpxvat nebhaq vf arire jbegu vg.

      • @liliaeth says:

        Abg qvfnterrvat, V whfg nyjnlf sryg vg jnf n cvgl gung OgIF ercrngrqyl oebhtug hc znyr encr, ohg arire npghnyyl frrzrq gb gnxr vg frevbhf.

        Knaqre va f3, Fcvxr va f6 (Tbar), gung fghqrag Ohssl gevrq gb unir frk jvgu va f7, … (whfg vzntvar ubj crbcyr jbhyq unir ernpgrq gb gung vs gur ivpgvz va rvgure bs gubfr fpranevb'f unq orra srznyr)

        Vg'f gur fnzr vffhr V unir jvgu ubj Jvyybj'f encr bs Gnen jnf cerggl zhpu vtaberq.

    • robin_comments says:

      VN, gurl qebccrq gur onyy ba jung unccrarq urer. Ohg V thrff vg'f fnqyl abg fhecevfvat, orpnhfr frkhny nffnhyg ntnvafg zra vf trarenyyl vtaberq, qvfzvffrq, be znqr vagb n wbxr va gur zrqvn.

    • EmilianaDarling says:

      V srry dhvgr fvzvyneyl nobhg ubj gur ERNYYL OVT pbafrag vffhrf jvgu Jvyybj jvcvat Gnen'f zrzbel naq gura univat frk jvgu ure jnf abg unaqyrq ng nyy. Naq npghnyyl, gur snpg gung Fcvxr'f npgvbaf va F6 gbjneq Ohssl vf fhpu n qvivqvat zbzrag va snaqbz juvyr Snvgu'f nggrzcgrq encr bs Knaqre trgf ure nofbyhgryl ab ungr sebz zbfg crbcyr. Vg'f whfg n ernyyl vagrerfgvat qbhoyr-fgnaqneq.

      • Nutty says:

        N ovyyvba gvzrf lrf. V'ir xabja crbcyr jubfr snibevgr punenpgre vf Snvgu, lrg gurl ungr Fcvxr ORPNHFR bs uvf nggrzcgrq encr. Vg znxrf zr entrl. Lbh trg n pbbxvr naq n uht sbe cbvagvat guvf bhg.

  21. cait0716 says:

    Seriously, if there was a way I could pull it off, I would do Mark Re-Watches The X-Files.

    I would be interested in this. And I haven't seen The X-Files, so part of this is also wanting to watch you squirm and not be able to post spoilers (or finally participate in all the rot13 shenanigans while I look on enviously).

    • May says:

      I love this idea so much! What fabulous role reversal. Mark could be posting things in rot13, and those of us who haven’t seen the x-files (like me) could do prediction posts in the comments, and, and, and…

      Do it Mark! This would be awesome!

    • t09yavosaur says:

      I have never seen it either. I feel like that will probably be a necessary addition to my nerd-ucation.

  22. Mez says:

    Failure of Secret Identity Count:

    22 + 1 (the Sunnydale Police Department, as represented by one cop) = 23

  23. arctic_hare says:

    To cheer us all up, here is a gif of a moment I always think of whenever I hear/see the title of this episode:

    <img src="; border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">

    • Patrick721 says:

      Looney Tunes is always a good idea.
      I wish there were a way to get every episode of them on DVD. I mean, if I had a time machine I'd totally use it for frivolous stuff like that. The hell with horrible disasters, the fact that we don't have EVERY doctor who episode and every single Looney Tune is a travesty that I must correct!

    • feminerdist says:

      OMG LOVE.

  24. mangoface says:

    Naq fb fgnegf Jrfyrl'f erpheevat ebyr nf "Gung thl jub qbrf jung pbhyq or evtug, ohg npghnyyl vg vfa'g orpnhfr Wbff ungrf hf nyy naq jnagf rirelbar zvfrenoyr." Htu, frrvat uvz yvxr guvf znxrf zr guvax bs gur onol Pbaabe svnfpb naq V nz jrrcvat evtug abj oeo.

    Qbrf abg uryc gung V erpragyl erjngpurq Natry frnfba 5 ;___;

  25. Karen says:

    Anyway, moving on from script related stuff… Demonstrating that the writers still don’t know what to do with Cordelia, she has her contractually obligated appearance at the beginning of the show. I really wish that the writers hadn’t tried to put her back into her season 1 role and instead let her remain a part of the Scoobies. But alas, I’ll just have to enjoy her once scene an episode the writers are giving her.

    Wesley isn’t exactly doing anything WRONG. He’s just following things exactly by the book. But sometimes you need to take real people and situations into account instead of just following a guidebook. To us, the audience who knows everyone involved and how they are trying to help Faith, Wesley seems like an intrusive obstacle. But from Wesley’s perspective, he’s just doing what he’s been trained to do. He thinks he’s doing the right thing.

    For me the highlight of the episode are the scenes between Faith and Angel. Angel is the only one who can even hope to understand what Faith is going through. He understands how scared she is, and he seems to understand why she is reacting the way that she is. He’s been there. He’s killed people and is learning how to atone for those sins. He could help Faith if she’d let him. And he seems to be getting through to her. Joss has us convinced that there is hope for Faith, but then nope. Wesley barges in and everything is ruined. The trust that Faith was just starting to build has been broken.

    Tnnnu… V pnaabg jnvg hagvy Znex trgf gb Snvgu’f rcvfbqrf va frnfba 1 bs Natry. Gurve eryngvbafuvc vf bar bs gur zbfg pbzcryyvat barf va gur Ohsslirefr. Gurve nepf whfg unir n ybg bs cnenyyryf naq guebhtu gurve vagrenpgvbaf jr yrnea zber nobhg obgu punenpgref. “Svir ol Svir” naq “Fnapghnel” erznva fbzr bs zl snibevgr rcvfbqrf bs Natry.

    Buffy is pretty great in this episode too. I love seeing her conflict. She feels horrible about what has happened and she WANTS to save Faith. She really does. But saving Faith might be beyond her ability. I love the scene where she’s sitting outside Angel’s mansion, like an anxious parent in a waiting room and how she latches onto getting Faith’s clothes as something that she can do to help. ILU, BUFFY.

    • stephanie says:

      Tnnnu… V pnaabg jnvg hagvy Znex trgf gb Snvgu’f rcvfbqrf va frnfba 1 bs Natry. Gurve eryngvbafuvc vf bar bs gur zbfg pbzcryyvat barf va gur Ohsslirefr. Gurve nepf whfg unir n ybg bs cnenyyryf naq guebhtu gurve vagrenpgvbaf jr yrnea zber nobhg obgu punenpgref. “Svir ol Svir” naq “Fnapghnel” erznva fbzr bs zl snibevgr rcvfbqrf bs Natry.

      v'ir fnvq vg orsber, ohg v'yy fnl vg ntnva urer… ZR GBB!!!

    • cait0716 says:

      I love Buffy's conviction at the end that she isn't going to give up on Faith. Bs pbhefr fur riraghnyyl qbrf juvpu qbrf nofbyhgryl abguvat gb uryc Snvgu. Vg'f Natry npghnyyl abg tvivat hc ba ure gung fnirf ure va gur raq.

  26. guest_age says:

    My favorite thing in this episode is the scene where Cordelia flirts with Wesley. I mean, the Faith arc is super-intense, don't get me wrong, and I love that, too, but there is nothing more hilarious than the awkwardness of that scene.

    • stephanie says:

      gur njxjneqarff bs gur xvff gurl funer va TQVV vf rdhnyyl uvynevbhf, VZB πŸ™‚

    • gonzoron says:

      Yeah, the Cordy/Wes scene is so hilariously awkward. On 1st watch, that's all I thought of it. Looking back, and with the comments from yesterday in mind, Wesley hanging around on school grounds is suspicious enough, but now flirting with a student too? This man will be lucky not to be hauled off to jail. πŸ™‚ At least once he realizes she's a student, he backs off, but wow… this would so not fly in a real school.

      • guest_age says:

        That is so true! At least they acknowledged the "JAIL. BAIT." in the episode? Wesley being carted off to jail could only lead to hilarity as he tried to uptight-British his way through the arrest and processing phase, though.

      • tanbarkie says:

        Sbe Tbq'f fnxr, zna, fur'f rvtugrra. Naq lbh unir gur rzbgvbany znghevgl bs n oyhroreel fpbar. Whfg unir ng vg, jbhyq lbh, naq fgbc syhggrevat nobhg.

  27. Gorimek says:

    Here is how I see the Faith – Buffy relationship:

    While they are pretty much mortal enemies at this point, they also share the bond of being Slayers, alone in the world with very unique powers, problems and responsibilities. This makes their conflict so intense and contradictory as it can only be when you must destroy someone you truly love.

  28. Laneswitch says:

    It may seem like peer pressure, but at the beginning when Faith tells Buffy that Finch's death is her fault to, she's technically right. they could both be equally prosecuted by the law. of course, the watchers don't seem to care, so it's just Faith whose in trouble while Buffy isn't

  29. pica_scribit says:

    The way I see it, based on the minimal background info we've been given on Faith, she doesn't exactly come from a place of love and stability. Before she was called as the Slayer, she was probably living a fairly chaotic life in which she had no power or control at all. We know her mother is dead and was probably abusive. We know that her first Watcher, whom she apparently cared for, was horribly killed right in front of her. There has been little in her life that she could depend on and few people she could trust, apart from herself.

    When she was called, she had power for the first time in her life. She had purpose. And she had a means to control her environment and the people in it: violence. So no wonder she clings to that power and builds a philosophy of self-reliance around it. She tells herself she doesn't need anyone or anything, and that nothing matters, because when you let things get to you, or you care too much about anything, that's a kind of weakness, and the thing Faith fears most is vulnerability.

    That's my take on her character, anyway.

  30. kte says:

    Faith was choking Xander. I don't think she knew if she was going to stop and let him live or keep going. I'm pretty sure Xander didn't know either. I find her actions here really disturbing and a good indication of how far she has gone over to the dark side.

  31. Karen says:

    So, to make this a bit more organized, I'm going to post each changed scene in a separate comment as a reply to this first one. The first change is not that interesting, but I'll post it anyway just to get the party started. Oh and the formatting is just going to be whatever is easiest for me. There are minor changes in dialog throughout the episode, but nothing that really changes the meaning of things. So I'm just going to transcribe and post the bigger changes.

    1) This first scene is a fairly minor change, but I might as well share it.

    [bolded parts not on the show] This is from the Mayor's speech that he is giving on the newscast that Joyce is watching.
    Mayor: Mr Finch was not only my long time aide and associate, he was a closepersonal friend. Obviously, I am grief stricken. But also outraged that something like this could happen to one of Sunnydale’s own. I promise you – I will not rest until these cold-blooded killers[the show has this part as being “whoever did it”] are found and brought to justice.

    Then NOT included in the script is Joyce noticing that Buffy is up and remarking how terrible it is. Instead the script just says that Joyce takes this in, shaking her head sympathetically while Buffy remains unnoticed in the hallway “feeling like the walls are closing in on her”.

    • Karen says:

      2) The paper shredding bit is set right after the credits in the script instead of later in the episode and it went a bit differently.

      Mayor: It’s not working.
      Trick: Looks like it’s working to me. You’ve got to get rid of that paper trail connecting you and the deputy mayor to… unpleasant dealings.
      Mayor: I agree. It’s not that. It’s just usually, using the shredder gives me a lift. It’s fun.
      Trick: And today it’s not giving you the ya yas.
      Mayor: No. Guess it’ll take more than this to turn my frown upside down. I thought Allan was someone I could trust. A pal. And now I find he kept all these classified papers when he was supposed to destroy them.
      Trick: You think he was talking to someone?
      Mayor: I hope not. If Allan betrayed me, I’d be awfully disappointed in him. Still, you’d better check it out, Trick. Find who murdered him – make them tell you what they know.
      Trick: I’m on it.
      [He starts to go – but the Mayor stops him]
      Mayor: Good. And Trick?
      Trick: Yeah?
      Mayor: When you do find whoever did this? You’d better… destroy the evidence. “People” trails are messier than paper trails in my book, understand?
      Trick: Loud and clear, sir.

      • Karen says:

        3) The scene with Cordelia entering the library is probably the biggest change, and I think it's really interesting to think about the differences.

        Giles stops short as Cordelia enters. Everyone falls silent, stares. Making it clear that she’s not particularly welcome.
        Cordelia (exasperated to Giles): Isn’t your only job now being a librarian? Crazy me- I thought maybe this parade of freaks would stop and I could finally get something to read.
        She starts to head back out. But Giles stops her.
        Giles: Cordelia. Don’t be silly. What were you looking for?
        Cordelia (turning back): Psych class. Frued and Jung. Book me.
        Giles bites his tongue at her rudeness. Moves off.
        Giles: Happily
        Giles moves into the stacks. Now Cordelia turns to the others, really noticing Wesley for the first time.
        Cordelia: What’s with Giles, Jr?
        Wesley steps forward, proffers a hand to Cordelia.
        Wesley: Wesley Wyndam Price. I am here on business, actually.
        Cordy likes what she sees. Decides to have a little fun.
        Cordelia (flirtatious): Not all business, I hope. You know what they say.
        Wesley (flustered): Of course… Dull boy and all that. Fortunately, I’m in no danger of that. While my work here is highly secret I can say that it’s quite stimulating-
        Cordelia: You’re the new watcher.
        Wesley (thrown): Ah, how do you – ?
        Buffy: She’s… a friend.
        Wesley (rambling): Well then, yes. In fact I am. Here to watch. Girls. I mean Buffy and Faith, in specific.
        Cordelia is enjoying her effect on Wesley. Moves closer, really turning on the gas. Wesley squirms.
        Cordelia: Excellent. I’m glad they didn’t send us another old guy. You’re nice and easy on the eyes.
        Welsey: Ha! Well. That’s awfully…
        He’s saved as Giles returns. He’s obviously overheard the last bit of their discussion. Hands some books to Cordy.
        Giles: Here you go. Old “hard on the eyes” is still good for something.
        Cordelia: Thanks.
        She starts out. Turns back to Wesley – shoots him a killer smile.
        Cordelia: If you’re ever off the clock, Watcher – I’d be happy to show you around town.
        Wesley (sputtering): Oh, that’s- That would be…
        But she’s gone. Wesley takes a minute to recover.

        WEIRDLY, THERE IS NO MENTION OF HER BEING A STUDENT IN THIS SCRIPT AND FAITH’S JAIL BAIT COMMENT ISN’T INCLUDED. So I'm guessing that it was only later that they realized that Cordelia was supposed to be a fair bit younger than Wesley (since she was a high school student and Wesley had presumably at least graduated from university) and decided to address that.

        • Karen says:

          4) There was a scene between Buffy and Faith in a hallway after they leave the library and before they enter the class room.

          Buffy, freaking, walks quickly down the hall ahead of Faith. Faith catches up with her – speaks to her quietly but firmly.
          Faith: What’s up , B? Looking a little spooked.
          Buffy: Yeah, call me crazy. I find all this troubling.
          Faith: Only trouble if you make trouble.
          Buffy: Think it’s already made.
          Now Faith smiles – as she quickly and forcefully takes Buffy by the arm and steers her into an empty classroom.

          • Karen says:

            5) Since the paper shredding scene happened earlier in the episode. This second scene between Trick and the Mayor goes a bit differently.

            The mayor is playing a game with his letter opener –stabbing it into the spaces between his splayed fingers, faster and faster. The Trick enters, startles him. The letter opener goes right into the mayor’s hand. The mayor doesn’t even flinch.
            Trick: Sorry.
            Mayor (unperturbed): No problem.
            The Mayor yanks the opener out of his hand. The would immediately heals. The mayor watches- fascinated.
            Mayor: Gee, that’s neat. Now I’m cheered up.
            Trick: You might want to hold off on the happy.
            Now Trick drops a file folder on his desk.
            Mayor: What’s this?
            Trick: Bombshell.
            The mayor picks up the file. Reads. Then looks up, his expression in agreement with Trick’s assessment.
            Trick: The Deputy Mayor had wooden splinters in his wound. Struck right through the heart with a sharp, pointed object. Smart money says – it’s a slayer did this job.
            The mayor considers this- clearly finding it intriguing.
            Mayor: Really… A slayer locked up in jail for murder one. That has possibilities, wouldn’t you say?

            • Karen says:

              6) The scene where the Detective (Detective Stein, the same one who interrogated Buffy in “Ted” according to the script) interrogates Buffy is mostly the same. Some slight shifts in pacing, but I wanted to share this bit with you I found amusing.

              Stein: And what did this “hanging” consist of?
              Faith: The usual. We did a little patrol – (catches herself) – Trolling. But that was a bust – so we went back to my place.
              Stein: Trolling? I’m guessing that you mean you were looking for boys.
              Faith: No – I mean trolls. They turn me on something fierce.

            • misterbernie says:

              Vagrerfgvat gb frr gung gur yrggre-bcrare ovg jnf vapbecbengrq vagb Rarzvrf.

            • NB2000 says:

              Gur Znlbe lnaxf gur bcrare bhg bs uvf unaq. Gur jbhyq vzzrqvngryl urnyf. Gur znlbe jngpurf- snfpvangrq.

              Vagrerfgvat gung gurl raqrq hc erplypvat gung zbzrag sbe "Rarzvrf". Vg qrsvavgryl jbexf orggre gurer.

        • numfar says:

          Must be an early draft. The script posted here…. has the student/jail bait comments.

      • Laneswitch says:

        "turn your frown upside down" makes me think of cartoons for kids. the fact that he can do this and still have scenes where he's terrifying is the mark of an amzing villan.

        Also, it's awesome you have the script. I'm kind of jealous.

    • Karen says:

      New reply thread again!

      13) There are some slight changes in the conversation that Angel and Faith have. Not too drastic, but I still think it's interesting to see how the script describes what is going on.

      Angel: But you aren’t a God. You’re not much more than a child. And this path will ruin you. Somewhere – at the depth of your nature – you know it. Eventually – you’ll pay. You can’t imagine the price of true evil.
      A flicker. Like something he said hit the mark. But-
      Faith: Yeah? I hope evil takes Mastercard.
      And she smiles. But Angel isn’t biting (so to speak).
      Angel: Joke all you want. You know I’m right. You know I get you – because you and me, we’re a lot alike.
      Faith: Except for the whole – “you’re dead” thing.
      Angel: Like I said – we’re a lot alike.
      Faith: Sorry, buddy. I’m alive and kicking. Fact, I’ve got a bodily function that needs attending to pretty quick here.
      Angel: You’re not alive. You’re just running. Afraid to feel. Afraid to love. Afraid to be loved –
      Some part of her reacts to this truth. But she averts her eyes.
      Faith: Save it for Hallmark. I have to pee.
      Angel: I felt the same way. All my days, all I’d known was betrayal. It seemed to me, humans existed just to hurt each other.
      Faith looks back at him now. Silent. But he’s struck a cord.
      Angel: But then I came here. And I found out that there were other kinds of people. People who genuinely wanted to do right. They still make mistakes. They fall down. But they keep trying. Keep caring.
      A long beat. Faith takes this in, clearly wanting to believe. Angel seest his. Moves to her – speaks from the heart.
      Angel: If you can trust us, Faith, it can all change. You don’t have to disappear into the darkness.
      She looks genuinely moved, confused. But the moment is lost as- BOOM! Wesley bursts in through the main doors with a couple of henchmen.

      Also, when Wesley and co burst in to get Faith, there’s a gag where one of the henchmen throws the keys to Wesley and he misses.

      • Karen says:

        14) This isn’t very exciting, but the script includes a brief bit of dialog where Buffy finds Angel, asks if he is all right, and he tells her that they took Faith.

        I'm guessing that was cut for time. So in the actual episode, we just see Buffy show up to find Angel and then cut to angel talking in the library.

        • Karen says:

          15) When everyone is discussing what to do about Faith, Xander had a bit of dialog that didn’t make it to the show.

          Now Xander speaks up – but his voice not more than a throaty whisper.
          Xander: She would have killed me. She wanted to. If Angel…
          His voice gives out completely and he falls silent, frustrated. Buffy is sympathetic but resolute.

          • Karen says:

            16) The set up for the fight between Faith and Buffy and Trick and his guys is a bit different.

            Buffy: No. I’m not going to do this.
            Faith: Why not? It feels good. Blood rising…
            Buffy: You’d love that wouldn’t you? If we destroyed each other –
            She’d go on, but Trick steps in front of her.
            Trick: I don’t know about her – but I’d like it. Make my job easier.
            Now Buffy and Faith see that they are surrounded by four massive bad ass vamps.
            Trick: Fortunately- I brought my own “destroyers”.
            A beat as Buffy and Faith take this in.
            Buffy (to Faith): Hold that thought.
            Then in a split-second, Buffy drops Trick with a roundhouse kick. And the fight is on.

            The fight scene is described differently than it plays out, but I’m waaaay too lazy to type that all out for you. But the result is the same.

            I do think it's interesting that there is discussion about how Faith and Buffy might be destroying each other. Not sure what to make of that dialog, tbh.

            • Karen says:

              17) Last one! This last change is the scene between Giles and Buffy in the library at the end of the episode.

              Buffy: You think maybe she turned a corner?
              Giles: We’ll see. She has a lot to face before she can put any of this behind her.
              Buffy looks a little disheartened at this.
              Buffy: I know.
              Giles (reassuring): But you helped her, Buffy. You made a difference. Without you Faith would be half-way to Jakarta by now. Let’s just hope she takes advantage of this opportunity and makes a fresh start.

  32. Ryan Lohner says:

    I'm sorry, but Faith's attempt to murder Xander is really where she loses me. Even knowing her entire story up to now, there was no way I could figure out what could make her think it was a good idea, and the first time I saw it I actually assumed it was meant to be her Moral Event Horizon, the point where she becomes a villain with no hope of return. It was quite maddening when I looked the episode up and found that Joss still expected us to be sympathizing with her after this one.

    • majere616 says:

      I was never really much of a fan of Faith but after that I was just completely incapable of mustering up a single scrap of sympathy for her. When you try to rape/murder someone for no other reason than "just because" any attempt at redemption feels extremely inappropriate.

      • plaidpants says:

        This is exactly my feeling on the subject. She really showed no remorse, and there really didn't seem any acknowledgement or understanding by the other Scoobies of just how far she had gone. I can understand redemption/forgiveness if she actually somehow acknowledges what she did, truly regrets it, and attempts to make amends but I don't see that at all at this point.

        • Jvgubhg ure nep va Natry, vg'f ernyyl qvssvphyg gb nccerpvngr jurer ure punenpgre tbrf. V qb guvax gung ure gvzr bire va Natry fubjf ure fubjvat erny erzbefr, ohg vg jbhyq or orggre vs fur pbhyq unir gnyxrq gb Knaqre nobhg jung unccrarq ng fbzr cbvag.

    • BornIn1142 says:

      I'm actually kind of displeased with Faith's development. It just feels like she's sort of skipped the slippery slope entirely, becoming a much more horrible person than we've seen so far too fast.

    • echinodermata says:

      Please don't use "mad" (in the sense of "crazy") or its derivatives on this site.

      • BornIn1142 says:

        I got the impression Ryan Lohner used "maddening" in the sense of "angering…"

        • echinodermata says:

          I'm not sure in what sense the word was used so that was enough to warrant making a comment about it; the site rules are about asking commenters to be more thoughtful and considerate about the sort of terms that get casually used that can harm people.

  33. t09yavosaur says:

    -Stop drowning Buffy Alan. πŸ™ She hates drowning.
    -And you Faith.
    -Hahaha Cordy. You got him flustered.
    -They have turned the computer lab into an English classroom.
    -So the Mayor knows. And with the Slayers investigating they will look suspicious if caught.
    -Alan was turning to good? Poor Alan. πŸ™
    -“I'm not the throw myself on the sword type.” It sounds like Faith is saying that if the roles were reversed she wouldn't be keeping quiet but I think she still would. Anyway her whole destiny is basically to throw herself on the sword.
    -Angel? What are you sneaking around and plotting? You gotta be careful helping if you don't know the whole story.
    -I hope the realization that their “interventions” are bad means there will be no more in the future.
    -Poor Xander.
    -I find Willow's crying interesting because I don't think it (completely) has to do with Xander having sex with someone else. Willow has a bit of an emotional overload this episode and that feeling that your friends are being “stolen”, especially by someone you don't like, really stinks.
    -Please don't have Xander get raped…Or murdered.
    -I fully approve of that plot Angel. Good show, save Xander.
    -But those chains look pathetic, fyi.
    -The “let me stay the night” was you Faith, not the guy.
    -I have to say, I think I understand what Angel is telling Faith about here. I have never killed anyone as far as I know but I do know about realizing your own power. One time I almost accidentally flipped my brother over my shoulder (though that is more about leverage than strength, I am apparently the perfect height to flip him). I still have the feeling of wanting to try again, for real, just to see if I could actually do it.
    -The Watchers must have a private jet. And why did they leave Angel alive?
    -Oh Trick, why'd you have to do something stupid like try to kill The Main Character. I'm gonna miss you.
    -Faith's turning. This is surprising but not frightening me yet. Also a Slayer as the big bad sounds interesting if it does come to that.

    Are potential Slayers born super strong or does that only show up when they are called?
    Can Slayers be un-Called? If the Watchers have a prison facility for unruly Slayers than what happens to the world while they are being “rehabilitated”? I can't see the Watchers leaving the world unprotected so the only options would to un-Call the Slayer or kill her.

    • Patrick721 says:

      Given that the buffyverse is kind of a "Crapsack World" (TVTropes), I'm guessing there's not a way to Un-Call a Slayer. Otherwise you can bet Buffy would've looked into it at some point, since she didn't exactly want to be the slayer, and would be happy if she wasn't.

      Or, if there is a way, then it's probably pretty hard to find out. Buried in some ancient text that no-one can read. (So Giles would have a copy in the library, of course.)

    • stormwreath says:

      Are potential Slayers born super strong or does that only show up when they are called?

      Gurl'er abg fhcre-fgebat, ab. Vg vf xvaq bs vzcyvrq va F7 gung Cbgragvnyf unir tbbq pbzong vafgvapgf be snfg ersyrkrf be trareny svgarff naq pbzong ncgvghqr, guvatf yvxr gung, ohg abguvat fhcreangheny.

      Gura ntnva, gur barf yvxr Xraqen be Xraarql jub jrer oebhtug hc ol Jngpuref unir orra onfvpnyyl genvarq gb xvyy fvapr gur ntr bs svir, znxvat gurz nobhg nf onqnff nf n abezny uhzna pna or.

    • zephyras13 says:

      The “let me stay the night” was you Faith, not the guy.

      Really? I took this to mean that she'd been sexually abused in the past. Which, in my perspective anyway, makes a lot of sense considering how Faith views sex.

      • t09yavosaur says:

        Since she said it right after trying to distract Angel and successfully distracting Xander forcefully with sex, that was what was fresh in my mind. It gave me the impression that she was still trying to distract Angel.

        If it was because of abuse though it might have been a sign that she was actually opening up to Angel.

  34. plaidpants says:

    Wow. This episode. This episode was hard for me to watch because I didn't really get Faith's perspective. I mean, I understand on an intellectual level just why she's acting the way she is, but I honestly can't see the motivations for her actions. She was awful – she killed a man, made jokes about his death, tried to pass the blame for his death onto Buffy, then tried to basically rape and kill/seriously injure Xander, escaped from custody by threatening to kill another person, and then came to the Mayor to become his toady. And through it all she seemed unrepentant, unwilling to admit she made mistakes, and just plain uncaring. And I don't think saving Buffy at the end redeems her – it doesn't make up for all the hurt and pain that she caused throughout the episode.

    I guess we saw hints of this side of her character in the earliest episodes and when she was first introduced, but I was honestly shocked by how far they took her in this. She has a long way to go to be redeemed as a character in my mind.

    I also was slightly annoyed with the Scoobies for once again trying to cut the new Watcher out. I get that they're upset about Giles being fired, but that is not his fault. Furthermore, while beating up on Angel was completely wrong and out of line, I really did not have a problem with them taking Faith to England to answer to the council. I mean, she killed someone. Just because she is a Slayer does not mean she shouldn't have to go through the process and answer for the consequences of her actions. I'm really interested to see how she fits in the rest of the storyline….

    • plaidpants says:

      Also, +1000 to the rewatching X-Files suggestion!

    • Noybusiness says:

      The problem is that Travers and the rest of the Council in England wouldn't get anywhere with Faith and would have to lock her up, whereas Buffy and co. were trying to help her sort through her issues.

  35. Willow silently crying, hidden in the bathroom, breaks me everytime…

    No time for more today, but right there, Consequences… Joss is throwing them in your face.

  36. Plactus says:

    I'm trying to come up with something, anything, to say about this episode. I think it's harder when I've seen the episode before, because I'm not reacting to seeing it for the first time, which is always different from reading scripts/transcripts. (Partially because I tend to skim over actions; when I see them live I then think, "Wait, was that in the script?" and go back and check and sure enough, it's there.)

    V jvfu V'q frra guvf rcvfbqr yvir, be ng yrnfg orsber Natry fgnegrq. V'ir arire orra n sna bs uvz ba Ohssl, gb gur cbvag jurer V jnfa'g fher V jnf rira tbvat gb jngpu Natry (V hygvzngryl qvq, sebz gur fgneg). Riraghnyyl V ernyvmrq gur ernfba V qvqa'g pner zhpu sbe Natry ba Ohssl jnf orpnhfr – nfvqr sebz uvf ghea nf Natryhf (juvpu V yvxrq!) – ur'f abg tvira zhpu gb qb bgure guna or Ohssl'f sbeovqqra ybir, n fgbelyvar V svaq grqvbhf orlbaq jbeqf. (Crbcyr zragvbarq gung gurl sbhaq gur Ohssl/Natry fprar va "Gur Mrccb" shaal. V qvqa'g. V qvqa'g frr vg nf nal qvssrerag sebz gurve abezny fprarf gbtrgure.)

    Frrvat Natry vagrenpg jvgu Snvgu, gryyvat ure gung rzoenpvat ure vaare ivyynva vf abg n cngu fur jnagf gb tb qbja… gung jnf na vagrerfgvat punenpgre. V jbhyq unir orra vagrerfgrq, gb frr vs gung Natry jnf jub Natry jbhyq or nobhg.

    (No real spoilers, but what I talk about might influence someone's expectations re: future stuff so rot13'd just in case.)

    Body Count:
    • Vampire, killed by Faith.
    • Vampire, killed by Faith.
    • Mr. Trick, killed by Faith.

  37. Karen says:

    8) In the scene where Buffy goes to the library to talk to Giles, but finds Faith got there first, in the script Giles says “You’ve been lying again” instead of “I don’t want to hear anymore of your lies”. I think the script version does a better job of convincing the audience Giles could have trust issues with Buffy due to her hiding Angel from him at the beginning of the season. Oh and in the script Faith tries to say that Buffy has “post traumatic shock or something”.

  38. Ginsue says:

    Faith just keeps hurting herself and others! The two moments that made me feel so largely uncomfortable was when Faith told Giles a twisted version of events and when her and Xander… well she assaulted Xander. I am impressed that they played this straight, and with Faith's superpowers and aggressiveness towards him, it was genuinely creepy, and I was worried. This is a power trip for her and nothing more. She takes what she wants and she tramples on what she wants, and despite this, Buffy still has faith in her (pun intended). This just makes them more shippy and more angsty. The couple now has that "Even if the world turns its back on you, I will continue to believe" angle. Didn't Buffy have the same dilemma with Angel?

    To add to everyone's comments, "Shut up Wesley!" (Note: I mostly hate his misguided actions.)

    • Raenef_the_5th says:

      Agreed, I'm pretty impressed they pulled off Faith-assulting-Xander as harrowing as it is, since as far as I know girl-on-guy TV-assult isn't usually done well or else done with the expectation that the audience should find it titillating.

  39. Karen says:

    10) The end of the big conversation between Buffy, Giles, Willow and Xander when they’re discussing what to do about Faith has a different ending.

    Giles: Good. It’s clearly time we took a harder look at him. He’s up to something.
    Buffy: And Faith?
    Giles: I ‘m afraid, Buffy, you’re the only one of use she might possibly respond to.
    Buffy: So I’ll give it another shot. I just wish I knew how to get through to her.

    IDK. I LIKE THE WAY IT IS IN THE SCRIPT. I like how it emphasizes how much Buffy does care about Faith and how she wants to help and how she and Faith do have a connection.

    • Karen says:

      11) The script establishing the scene where Faith is at Angel’s goes like this, I kid you not:

      We follow the chains down until we see Faith in shackles (sorry ladies, can’t be Angel every time).

      Oh and when Faith says “safety words are for wusses?” In the script, she says “pussies”.

      • Karen says:

        12) The conversation between Trick and the mayor as they watch the security footage goes a bit differently. I'm actually going to ROT13 this because it MIGHT be slightly spoilery. Nothing major, but I do think it reveals details that haven't been stated on the show so far.

        Znlbe: Abg bar fynlre, ohg gjb. Evtug urer va gur ohvyqvat…
        Gevpx fgnegf gb oyhfgre –
        Gevpx: Gurer jnf fhccbfrq gb or n thneq, jngpuvat gur zbavgbe –
        Znlbe (phggvat uvz bss): Fuuuu. Urer pbzrf zl snibevgr cneg – jurer gur fynlref frr hf, pbzvat qbja gur unyy gbtrgure, crnf va n cbq.
        Gevpx: Fb V’yy xvyy gurz. Gurl’yy fraq zber fynlref – ohg ng yrnfg gurl arj barf jba’g xabj nalguvat nobhg lbh.
        Znlbe: Abobql pna abj. Qb lbh haqrefgnaq? V unir yrff guna 100 Qnlf gb zl nfprafvba. Hagvy V shysvyy gur qernz V’ir ahegherq fvapr zl lbhgu! V srry V fubhyqa’g unir g cbvag bhg gb lbh – guvf vf n irel cbbe gvzr gb qvfcyrnfr zr.

  40. kte says:

    totally off-topic, but in line with the X-Files… Buffy makes an appearance at 3:33
    [youtube Wijp4-3giNw youtube]

  41. @mossomness says:

    I'm joining the fairly empty Defend Wesley camp. He was trained to be a Watcher and to believe everything the Council taught him is true. He was taught that in this situation, when a slayer murders a human, she is to be taken to the Council so that they can decide her fate. Giles even mentions that this is what has been done in the past. Wesley simply does his job. It turns out terribly, but he didn't do anything wrong. He didn't know Angel, and didn't know he was Faith's best chance. The situation was very bad, but I don't feel like it can all be blamed on Wesley.

    • Karen says:

      I'm with you. Wesley is working with limited information and he just doesn't have the experience he needs. He's doing what he thinks is right. He's following protocol.

  42. robin_comments says:

    This episode is emotionally interesting to me, because I have all of these sympathetic feelings for Faith for almost the first half of the episode, because sure she starts spouting some Not Good ideology, but she’s understandably scared and I’m appreciating her character so much more this rewatch.

    I even completely sympathize with her lying to Giles, out of fear that Buffy will turn her in. (It’s a betrayal of friendship, but not like she’s framing Buffy with the police. Though awww, it’s kind of hurty how Buffy seemed to have a flash of happy/proud on her face when she thinks that Faith confessed to Giles.)

    But then it pretty much all SHUTS OFF for me when she gets all consent-issues towards Xander (her gender doesn’t stop that from being creepy) and then strangles him.

    I may have had my criticisms about Xander in the past, but he wasn't doing anything to do to deserve that. And even if he’d had been acting like a sexist, patronizing jerk (which he wasn't here), it’s just NO.

    Faith killed someone by accident, and though she wasn’t handling it well I didn’t think she should be written off for it or imprisoned. But then she completely crosses the line with me. Sincerely sorry you’ve had an unhappy life, Faith, and I think you deserve a lot of empathy for that, but being all rapey and having to be stopped from murdering someone who was just trying to help you? And then, of course, joining up with the bad guy…

    This is all so awful, because yeah, the Scoobies didn’t include and welcome her as much as they could have… but still, that’s ultimately not going to soften my judgment of Faith, because on the other hand I don’t feel comfortable saying they were obligated to invest X amount of energy in befriending Faith, and since they only did Y amount she’s not culpable for her behavior, ‘cause it makes me feel victim-blamey. idk. Man, THIS EPISODE. RIGHT? siiiiigh.

    • @liliaeth says:

      Not to mention that Faith is stronger than Xander, far far stronger. The comparison would be to a huge bodybuilder assaulting a defenseless girl (as in, not trained in any martial arts and completely unarmed)

      • robin_comments says:

        oh, yes, it's an extreme discrepancy of power, because you have someone with superpowers and rapidly greying morality vs someone who's not especially strong for a regular human and is constrained by his morality.

  43. januar says:

    Gur bar punenpgre gung pbhyq unir oebxra guebhtu gb Snvgu jnf Natry.

    Gur eryngvbafuvc gung Natry naq Snvgu unir vf bar bs zl snibevgrf. V ybir gur rcvfbqrf bs Natry gung unf Snvgu ba gurz, naq frrvat ubj zhpu Natry raqf hc urycvat ure.

  44. misterbernie says:

    Eeee πŸ˜€
    Well, I tried to do Indo-European studies, but I dropped out after half a semester because a) the syntax class was too confuzzling and b) Sanskrit is just way too fucking much for me. So most of the stuff I know is self-acquired knowledge (via the internet, no less, so take everything I write cum grano salis).

    Polynesian (and by extension Austronesian in general) is probably the BAMFiest of all language families in terms of global dispersal. Indo-Europeans rode everywhere between the Atlantic and the Indian ocean? Well, Polynesians sailed all across the fucking Pacific. And probably to South America and back. BAM

    • I feel your pain when it comes to syntax. I have to retake it next semester because I completely failed it the first time around. The annoying part is that I actually think I grok the concepts fairly well, but the combination of depression and a professor that can't clarify anything worth a damn made things extremely difficult.

      I am currently taking semantics with the same professor. *le sigh*

      • misterbernie says:

        And I feel your professor pain and the feeling of groking the concept, but having difficulties nevertheless (for example, I think I do get the different morphosyntactic alignments, but when I try to explain active-stative – even only to myself – I make myself go bwuh) *commiseration*
        also, I think the course might've gone differently if I had taken it at a later date, but I was just thrown into a sea of thematic relations at the beginning and WHAT

  45. Rob M says:

    Znlor vg unf nyjnlf orra urer?

  46. fantasylover120 says:

    Oh this ep. Too many complex feelings to describe. I'll let other people do it instead, they can probably describe it better.
    Daily Buffy Quotable
    "First word: jail. Second word: bait."-Faith
    "Now he's dead and I'll never have the chance to scold him."-Mayor
    "I don't want to fester. I want to be fester free."-Willow
    "It's not that I don't trust you…actually it's that I don't trust you."-Angel (clearly the Scoobies brand of humor has started to effect him. I approve)

  47. cait0716 says:

    I really like the way this episode gets bookended with Bad Girls. Taken together, they start and end with Faith saving Buffy from a vampire who's about to bite her. It's practically the same shot – with the vampire turning to dust to reveal Faith holding a stake. It's also a cool callback to the beginning of Faith's arc. The same technique was used when she killed Kakistos. Even though so much shit went down in the past two episodes, these two are still bonded by being slayers. And though they may be on opposite sides now, I don't think that bond will be quite so easy to break.

    I mentioned yesterday that I always expect Bad Girls to end an act before it does. These two episodes are so tied together, and so crucial to Faith's arc, that it's hard for me to view them as separate episodes. Much like Surprise and Innocence, I can't have one without the other. I can't even watch one without also watching the other. Thank Joss they're on the same disc.

    Everyone wants so badly to help Faith. And they really are doing their best. They know that an intervention isn't the right way to go. Buffy didn't respond well to that method, and Faith would react worse. Poor Xander thinks that he has a genuine connection with Faith because he believes that that's what sex means. He doesn't understand this whole sex without emotions thing that Faith does. Meanwhile, Buffy recognizes that Angel is better suited and does her best to stay out of the way so he can help her.

    Willow is not exactly un-biased here. Faith has been moving in on her territory. It's an interesting parallel to how Buffy reacted when Faith first showed up. Although Buffy eventually came around to sympathizing with Faith, Willow is definitely not there yet. Vs lbh gnxr gur ivrj gung guvf fubj vf nyy nobhg Ohssl naq gung Jvyybj ercerfragf ure fcvevg, guvf frrzf gb vaqvpngr gung Ohssl vfa'g dhvgr nf pbzsbegnoyr jvgu Snvgu nf fur'q yvxr gb guvax. Fur guvaxf gurl unir guvf cebsbhaq obaq, nf ercerfragrq ol Knaqre "gur urneg" naq uvf nffhzcgvbaf nobhg uvf eryngvbafuvc jvgu Snvgu. Ohg cneg bs ure vf fgvyy qrrcyl qvfgheorq ol gur snpg gung Snvgu xvyyrq n crefba. Creuncf guvf vf jul Ohssl hygvzngryl jevgrf Snvgu bss nsgre qvfpbirevat gung fur'f tbar bire gb gur Znlbe'f fvqr.

    The scene with Willow crying alone in the bathroom just breaks my heart. She's upset that Xander had sex with Faith. I think that even though she recommitted herself to Oz, part of her hadn't quite accepted that Xander wouldn't be her first. She's been in love with him for practically her entire life and those aren't feelings you just get over. At the same time, she knows she doesn't exactly have a right to be that upset. And so, instead of turning to Buffy or Oz for comfort, she sobs her heart out all alone on a toilet.

    The scene with Angel and Faith is one of my favorites. I love their dynamic. He gets where she's coming from. And he doesn't judge or condemn her. Well, he chains her up. But he honestly tries to get through to her. And it seems to be working until Wesley ruins everything.

    Angel's line: "It's not that I don't trust you…well actually it is that I don't trust you" is something my mom said to me a lot when I was a teenager. She would sort of half-quote Angel in saying it, but she was big about trust being an earned thing. As a newly licensed 16-year-old, she didn't trust me to not just go joy-riding with my friends (partly because that's totally what she did). So I had a strict curfew and rules about calling her to check in all the time. As a slightly more mature 18 year old I had more freedom because I'd earned it. So I got to hear this all the time in high school

  48. guest_age says:

    From your lips to Mutant Enemy's no longer existent ears. I could watch Wesley's deep discomfort over how improper it all is for days.

  49. Skyweir says:

    I have a huge problem with the ethics of this episode, especially the way it sets human life above other sentient life.

    Faith kills a human, but he was working for a man that is clearly a monster and working towards massive destruction of life. If we see fighting the Mayor as a reasonable thing to do, then killing his henchmen is inevitable. And there is no rational reason to say that a vampire working for the Mayor is more deserving of "slaying" than the human (his nearly second in command, it seems). Buffy has no moral legs to stand on here, she has killed a lot of clearly sentient beings for much less (sometimes just for existing, in fact).

    Abg gb zragvba gung va gjb frnfbaf, Ohssl jvyy xvyy qbmraf bs "xavtugf bs Olmnagvhz", nyy bs jubz ner uhznaf, jvgubhg nalbar onggvat na rlr. Jul vf vg abg n uhtr qrny gura? Jurer vf Tvyrf whqtzragny svatre naq gur Jngpure Pbhapvy'f erohxr. Jurer vf gur thvyg? Be qb gur ehyrf abg nccyl gb Ohssl?

    This just pisses me of, to put it mildly. First time I watched I was totally on Buffy's side, but now I can see that she is in fact wrong on factual and ethical grounds. If slaying is morally justifiable, then slaying of humans cannot be any different unless you hold to the belief that humans are somehow better and more important than other sentient life. And if Buffy holds that belief, then I cannot in good conscience consider her an ethical or "good" person.

    • tehrevel says:

      He didn't attack them, as far as they know he hadn't done anything wrong. They didn't know he was the mayors aide anyway so when Faith stabbed him in the heart with a wooden stake he could have just been any regular guy.

      • Skyweir says:

        True enough I guess, though he was hanging around a vampire infested dock, so it is a little bit shady. Chalk it up to collateral damage then. Buffy and Faith are fighting a war here, sometimes these things happen. And later they do find out who he is, but neither Buffy nor Giles relents.

        I also hold the Slayers to be "above" the law. They have to be, like all super heroes. Reckless destitution of property, assulting a police officer, assult? Buffy has done all of these without anyone calling in the law.

        Vampires and other supernaturals should also be covered by our law, by the way. Vaqrrq, guvf vf n znwbe cybg cbvag va Natry. Jbysenz naq Uneg ner onfrq ba gur irel pbaprcg gung fhcreangheny orvatf arrqf ercerfragngvban va n pbheg bs ynj.

        All in all it annoys me that the Scoobies are so unreflective on these important issues, and even more that the writers do not seem to have thought the implications of the plot through.

        Vaqrrq, gurl ubc rnfvyl onpx naq sbegu nobhg gur ynj naq rguvpny qvyrzznf sebz frnfba gb frnfba, juvyr Snvgu sbe fbzr ernfba arire pna rfpncr ure pevzr.

        Bs pbhefr, bapr gur Fpbbovrf fraq ure vagb gur rzoenpr bs gur Znlbe, Snvgu qb n ybg bs bgure guvatf gung ner greevoyr naq pyrneyl rguvpnyyl jebat. Ohg znxr ab zvfgnxr, Ohssl naq gur Fpbbovrf sbeprq ure unaq cerggl frireryl jura gurl fubjrq ubj yvggyr gurl ertneq obgu ure naq jung fur qbrf, juvyr sbetvivat Ohssl sbe rknpgylg ur fnzr npgvbaf zhygvcyr gvzrf.

    • robin_comments says:

      This post makes me really happy, FYI.

    • caia says:

      What about the assassins from the Order of Taraka? The big guy at the skating rink and the cop both seemed human to me. A big scar or a Superbowl ring don't make them not human.

      Naq gura fur'yy syvc bhg nobhg guvaxvat fur xvyyrq Xngevan, jura fur jnf va snpg onggyvat qrzbaf jub jrer nggnpxvat ure naq qvfgbegvat gvzr. Vg'f yvxr gur fubj unf Ohssl pner qrrcyl nobhg uhzna yvsr vs naq jura gurl qvr va pregnva genhzngvp nppvqragny jnlf, ohg abg jura fur xvyyf gurz ba checbfr… be, fur pnerf jura gurl arrq ure gb sbe n cybg qrivpr.

    • @liliaeth says:

      And 'that' is exactly why I like the new NBC series Grimm so much, because it's one of those rare shows where the life of a non human sentient, is seen as just as valuable as that of a human (well it's one of many many reasons*g*)

      • threerings13 says:

        You might be interested in the show 'Lost Girl.' There are Fae and there are Humans, but most of the show is from the POV of the Fae and human life is valued really low by most (but not all) of their society. Great show.

        • robin_comments says:

          I love "Lost Girl"! Sure, the dialogue isn't anywhere near as witty as BtVS. But it's a fun show, includes contrasting supernatural and human perspectives, and it does a good job with the protagonist's bisexuality.

    • SelphieFairy says:

      So this is TOTALLY IMHO, but this is how I interpret the whole ambiguous morality of killing demons v. humans (Spoilers for Buffy through season 7, and some minor spoilers for Angel):

      V qb guvax gung Ohssl unf n fcrpvsvpnyyl zbeny ernfba sbe abg jnagvat gb xvyy uhznaf, ohg yngre ba, vg frrzf zber yvxr gurl'er gelvat gb fnl vg'f orpnhfr vg'f abg va ure whevfqvpgvba, vs gung znxrf frafr? V'z zbfgyl xvaq bs onfvat guvf bss gur pbairefngvba Ohssl unf jvgu Knaqre naq Jvyybj va 'Frysyrff.' Gurl qrsvavgryl yvtugra hc ba gur jubyr "nyy Qrzbaf ner rivy" ol gura (Ohssl ershfrf gb xvyy unezyrff qrzbaf yvxr Pyrz, Fcvxr jvgu n puvc, Natry/Fcvxr jvgu n fbhy; ba Natry, jr trg Qblyr nf jryy nf n qrzba phygher naq fbpvrgl, rgp), ohg fur fgvyy pebffrf gur yvar ng uhznaf.

      Bgure crbcyr unir qvssrerag vqrnf, boivbhfyl. Tvyrf pbagvahbhfyl orengrf ure sbe abg orvat noyr gb znxr gur "gbhtu qrpvfvbaf" — yrnqvat gb Fcvxr nyzbfg orvat xvyyrq. Naq bs pbhefr, vg jnf Tvyrf, jub xvyyrq Ora, naq vs vg jrer hc gb uvz Qnja qrsvavgryl jbhyq unir whfg orra xvyyrq bhgevtug va frnfba 5. Fb cneg bs vg vf qrsvavgryl whfg Ohssl'f bja zbeny pbqr naq ure bja crefbanyvgl. Va gung frafr, Ohssl znl be znl abg or evtug va oryvrivat gung uhznaf ner fbzrubj vaureragyl orggre guna qrzbaf.

      But I also see it like morality v. law. People sometimes mix up law and morality, thinking that morals should be the basis for law. But laws are there for order, not for moral reasons. J-walking is illegal, but is it immoral? Yeah, not really. It's immoral to cheat on someone if you're in an exclusive relationship, but I doubt that's a good enough reason to make laws against cheating.

      So, Buffy CAN kill humans and maybe sometimes it'd be the moral choice to do so. But the thing is, it's not her decision to make, exactly. The human world has its own laws for dealing with murder, violence, chaos, etc. and the supernatural world has its own: her job as a slayer is to kill demons in order to protect human lives, not to pass judgment on everything she deems ‘immoral.’ This is where Faith and Buffy differ. Faith thinks because she has power, because she has saved people before, she is allowed to make choices about who "deserves" to live and who doesn't. That she is somehow above the law. Faith believes it’s OK for her to exploit the fact that people depend on her to live. She thinks she IS the law, whereas Buffy recognizes that she distinctly ISN'T.

      TL;DR: I side with Buffy on this.

      • robin_comments says:

        idk. in the human world, in my country, we have laws that the entire society has at least SOME measure of say in, however minimal these days. And there are least some checks and balances, some oversight. There's due process, there's innocent until proven guilty.

        It's hard for me to see Buffy as a force of order for the supernatural world, when the organization she represents has no representation from the supernatural world. There are no supernatural creatures on the Watcher's Council. There's zero interest in protecting the interests or rights of any non-human being, of applying order and security to their lives as well as the lives of non-humans. No one's watching the Watcher's, no one outside them has any say about how the slayer's "job" is performed.

        to me, Buffy is still making choices about who "deserves" to live — She's killing demons in the service of human lives, and she's making herself the law by slaying automatically when she sometimes she has no proof that this sentient being has murdered a human and being cannot be rehabilitated like she's aiming for Faith. She's thinking she IS the law and doing this instead of considering any kind of judicial order (crafting specific laws and justifications and evidence for these executions — and no alternatives to the death penalty).

        TL;DR: I don't side with anyone, I just wish the BtVS writers cared about all of the same stuff I do when it comes to supernatural/sci-fi fiction. LOL.

        • SelphieFairy says:

          Lol at your last comment. Most of this is only an issue probably because the writers didn't think too far or deep about the story and rules they've created until it turns on itself. Gurl cebonoyl arire gubhtug nobhg "unezyrff" qrzbaf hagvy yngre ba, juvpu gurl cebonoyl qvq nf n wbxr ng svefg, hagvy vg jnfa'g nalzber… Naq nf n erfhyg rirelguvat vf jnnnnnl zber pbashfvat. Thanks, writers, for making us confused about how a fictional universe operates. (:

  50. feminerdist says:

    Wow, this episode. Not expected.

    One this that stuck out was that I was really really happy that the writers didn't have Giles believe Faith. I'm with Mark on this one; that would have been too unbelievable. Even as the scene was unfolding and Faith was telling her side, I kept thinking "Oh but of course Giles knows she's lying. He HAS to." Giles knows what's up.


    I have a feeling I'm not prepared…

  51. BornIn1142 says:

    I get that they were trying to be subtle, but I found it odd that Buffy never pointed out that Faith was pretty much repeating the vampire party line there. All her justifications are arguments I'd expect vampires to make for why they prey on humans.

  52. Nos says:

    I am the only one totally excited about Wesley? No?


    Bxnl, znlor abg 'gur jrncba' lrg, ohg vg'f va gurer! UVQVAT. Tvir guvf zna n fubgtha naq fgrny uvf enmbef. CYRNFR

  53. stormwreath says:

    So here's my take on Faith, as of this moment:

    I think that all her life, she's been powerless. Dirt-poor, with an alcoholic and possibly violent mother, little in the way of friends or support system. There are suggestions that she was sexually abused as a child too. Regardless of that, it seems like as an adult she treats sex and her sexuality as the only way she can – if only for a moment – achieve some illusion of power and control in her life. Power over the men who are weak enough to chase after her or be lured into sleeping with her – and that's why she feels contempt for them.

    Then she became a Slayer, and for a while it seemed like she might have a purpose, a mission, a sense of connection. But here in this episode it's all taken away from her. The Watchers' Council turns against her. Even Buffy betrays her (at least in Faith's eyes). So now she turns to the Mayor as a different way of getting some power and purpose and stability back into her life.

    I know that Buffy wants to help Faith – but she goes the exact wrong way about it. Faith's in denial; she's trying to convince herself that everything's going to be okay after all. What she did doesn't really matter, and she can go on as normal. She wants Buffy to back her up. But instead, Buffy's being all, "Oh my God your life is ruined, everything is crashing down about us." Buffy says that Faith should feel sick and dirty inside. Buffy says she's going to tell the police and get Faith arrested. Buffy – one of the very, VERY few people Faith has ever let herself trust and love – has turned against her. Faith's reaction, I think, is grounded in her feelings of bitterness and hurt at that betrayal.

    But however angry at her she is, at least Faith can't just leave Buffy to be killed by a vampire.

    …Not yet, anyway. (DUN DUN DUN)

    • caia says:

      Agreed. Let's not forget that "as an adult" she's sixteen or seventeen, tops. I know I previously stated that age isn't an excuse, and it isn't. But it does add a layer to the ways the rest of the people on this show had let her down prior to all this.

      Shouldn't a Watcher like Giles or Wesley, or the Watchers' Council, take an interest in where a minor child is living? Whether she's enrolled in school? Whether she has any means of self-support? (The only source of money I can imagine for her is perhaps Social Security after her mother's death, which wouldn't be very much, and would go away once she turned eighteen… with no diploma or functional support system.)

      • stormwreath says:

        Personally, I've always seen Faith as being 18, the same age as Buffy. That's what the shooting script for FH&T calls her, anyway – and it's how old Eliza herself was then, for whatever that's worth.

        Naq va F7 fur gryyf bss Nznaqn sbe haqrentr qevaxvat, gura qevaxf gur nypbuby urefrys – juvpu ng yrnfgf fhttrfgf gung Snvgu urefrys vf bire 21 ol gung fgntr. (fvapr F7 vf Arj Ersbezrq Erfcbafvoyr Snvgu.) Nyfb fur jnf va na nqhyg cevfba, abg whivr.

        The Watchers definitely let her down badly – but we know how efficient and caring they are. As for money, I have a feeling that Faith's main sources of income are not exactly legal…

        • caia says:

          I'd always assumed that Faith was a year or more younger because she was called a year or more later.

          But then what is Faith doing? Robbing and fencing? Dealing drugs? Turning tricks?

          • stormwreath says:

            I don’t think Slayers are called in strict age order, though I don’t think it’s really been established either way as yet.

            But then what is Faith doing? Robbing and fencing? Dealing drugs? Turning tricks?

            Lrf. Jryy, znlor abg gur qeht-qrnyvat cneg.
            Va ‘Svir Ol Svir’ fur’f nccneragyl yrg urefrys or cvpxrq hc va n avtugpyho ol n jrnygul byqre jbzna – Yvynu – naq vf tbvat ubzr jvgu ure. (Fur gura pynvzf gung ure cyna nyy nybat jnf gb ebo Yvynu ng n pbairavrag zbzrag).Gura gurer’f ure fgbevrf gb Fcvxr va F7 nobhg xabjvat ‘tenabyn qhqrf’ jub ner frpergyl vagb ahefrf, purreyrnqref, fpubbytvey pbfghzrf naq ohyyjuvcf.

            V guvax vg’f zber yvxryl gb or ‘pbzcrafngrq qngvat’ guna bhg-naq-bhg cebfgvghgvba: Snvgu vf cercnerq gb hfr frk gb trg jung fur jnagf, vapyhqvat serr zrnyf, tvsgf, naq znlor gur bccbeghavgl sbe fbzr crggl gursg. Ohg vg’f n svar yvar.

            I may have written angsty fic about this. πŸ™‚

      • Skyweir says:

        I do not think Faith need any excuse, as I have also said above. I think her actions is as morally justifiable as Buffy's, and that Buffy is a complete hypocrite in this episode. Buffy has clearly never thought about the ethics of what she is doing when she "slays", but she has no moral legs to stand on here when she criticize Faith.

        And when she goes and wants to turn Faith in, the problem becomes sever. Buffy breaks countless laws in earlier episodes without facing any kind of repercussions, so arguments about the law in this case is moot. She is breaking the understanding that has always to this point been implied, that Slayers need to be able to break laws to save the world. At the same time, she is not turning herself in for assault, breaking and entering, assaulting a police officer, multiple thefts and even (depending on the legal standing of vampires) multiple murders. Or what about Angel, he has committed countless murders through the ages (and quite a few just a year ago), yet Buffy is not turning him in. Only Faith, it seems, deserve to pay for her "crime".

        Buffy is just wrong here.

  54. DktrAgonizer says:

    Man, Mr. Trick was easily on his way to being one of my favorite characters. I knew he would have to die eventually, but still. We'll miss you, Trick. πŸ™

    Also, any sympathies and whatnot I ever felt for Faith disappeared the instant she began strangling Xander. Like, THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING FAITH. SERIOUSLY.

  55. echinodermata says:

    The whole 'SLAY THE DEMONS but no humans ever' thing always bugged me. I guess you can argue demons are inherently evil, or that the Slayer gig is precisely about slaying demons, but on an intellectual level I find it annoying how distraught Buffy gets over this dead human guy when she's killed probably hundreds or thousands of demons. They're sentient and smart and vampires were human once and still look mostly human. She believes in this big solid line of humans on one side and demons (minus souled Angel) on another, but that seems so simplistic. I mean, Angel gets an exemption; can we examine that more? Don't get me wrong, it's wholly understandable Buffy doesn't want to question the morality of her killing human-level sentient creatures even if they are demons, but I guess I wish we had more exploration of what personhood is in this universe when things like vampires exist. If Angel can be redeemed then what does that say about the inherent evil of demons and what does that therefore say about the morality of killing demons?

    And now to Faith. For Faith's first episode I wrote that I'm irrational in my love of Faith. The reason I use the word "irrational" specifically is because I'm entirely willing to go beyond the lines of the text and look to and undestand her motivations to the extent I basically give her a pass on shitty decisions she might make because I know why she makes them. She's alone and she hoped that Buffy would be the one person who would understand and support her, but it became clear Buffy wasn't going to bury what happened the way Faith wants, and by nature of that, Faith's terrified of what will happen to herself. So she fights for her own self because that's what she knows and has always done. If Buffy won't support her, then she's willing to throw Buffy under the bus to save herself. I get that. I understand that. Given Faith just doesn't have any sort of support, I accept her bad decisions and still love her and root for her and I can't blame her when she's just trying to live. It's selfish and harmful, but I still view Faith as a wholly sympathetic character who's been abandoned and unsupported by the people she needs the most.

    So I hate Giles blaming Faith for running from responsibility when Giles has never been there for Faith – she has no reason to trust you, man. She's a teenager who accidentally killed someone and is terrified and has no one she trusts. Of course she's gonna run away from this.

    Xander goes to her to try to help her, and she uses her sexuality against him because she knows he's attracted to her and she knows it'll be a powerful tool against him. She sexually assaults him, but I love her anyway because I still parse her actions to myself through her underlying motivation of fear at her own vulnerability. Rape is about power; with Faith feeling vulnerable and lacking any power to make things better, I understand why she goes the sexual assault route when Xander tries to help her. By offering his hand to her, she's positioned as the one that needs help. So she makes Xander the victim instead. I'm not at all saying what she did was right or trying to excuse her actions with Xander, but as a character I feel like I fully understand where she's coming from and I can't not divorce her actions from her underlying vulnerability. So I'm writing this to explain why I can still love Faith even when she does something like this. Even when she almost rapes Xander I still find her a sympathetic character.

    • echinodermata says:

      And that's why I say I'm irrational in my love of Faith. I forgive her even when she does unforgivable things. I'm so sympathetic to her character and so willing to look to why she behaves the way she does that I forgive her for things I normally wouldn't. I think she's a very well-realized character and I applaud the writers for crafting this character that I understand so well without the show having to explain it all to me piece by piece. Though I'm not entirely clear if Faith is better-written and developed in terms of her motivation as compared to other characters or if I'm just compelled to her character more and therefore automatically put more effort into understanding her than I do others. Hard to say, but the end result is that I'm hugely passionate about Faith and I'm thankful for the writers for giving me such a complex and interesting character.

      With Angel and Faith talking, I feel like it's a good idea for them to talk and that Angel is the one best equipped to actually make a difference for Faith's mental state in this episode. But he's coming from the angle that she's not remorseful of killing that guy and I don't buy that. Hell, Buffy doesn't buy that ("It's not your real face, and I know it"). So…I don't get what he's doing except projecting his own issues onto her. She's afraid of going to prison and being more alone and powerless than ever, and he's talking about the seduction of killing people. Um, right. Not. Helpful. I mean, it's true she's not remorseful about killing demons and gets a thrill from it, but Buffy isn't remorseful about killing demons either and Angel has killed vampires right along with her so it seems like humans specifically are the focus of that conversation. And that's not really Faith's issue – she accidentally killed that guy and didn't take pleasure from it.

      Regarding the scene with Buffy and Faith at the end, all I'll say about that is I want a Buffy/Faith fanvid set to "Bad Romance". Please? Does it exist? I wants it.

      • arctic_hare says:

        Thank you for this post, it's beautiful. <3 I have so many of the same feelings about Faith, I find it so hard to demonize her even when she does awful things because of all the love and understanding I feel for her. I *get* her. I don't excuse what she did but I still feel that sympathy for her.

        • flootzavut says:

          I think that makes a lot of sense, assuming of course that I've understood you right πŸ™‚ I'm reading a book at the moment, The Language of Flowers by Vanessa Diffenbach, and a lot of the reviews complain that the main character is unsympathetic and cold and lacks trust and all kinds of things, and the thing is, that she does, in many ways she's not a likeable person, but I totally empathise with and understand why. So when she does objectionable things, acts in ways that are unlikeable, it doesn't make me dislike her, it makes me feel for her, and it makes me cry. It's funny that things which alienate some people can actually provoke sympathy in others.

    • BornIn1142 says:

      The whole humans vs. demons thing becomes especially strange and untenable when taking later developments in Angel into account.

      V'z jngpuvat gur svefg frnfba evtug abj, naq tbbqarff tenpvbhf, gurer zhfg or zber flzcngurgvp/tbbq qrzbaf guna rivy barf! Gurer'f jubyr gevorf naq enprf bs qrzbaf gung qba'g qb rivy penc ng nyy. Znal bs gurz ner ernyyl whfg nyvraf, naq gur jubyr pbaprcg bs fbhyrq naq fbhyyrff perngherf trgf irel uneq gb fjnyybj.

    • robin_comments says:

      Don't get me wrong, it's wholly understandable Buffy doesn't want to question the morality of her killing human-level sentient creatures even if they are demons, but I guess I wish we had more exploration of what personhood is in this universe when things like vampires exist. If Angel can be redeemed then what does that say about the inherent evil of demons and what does that therefore say about the morality of killing demons?


  56. Kevin says:

    “I’m glad that writers didn’t have Giles believe Faith because I would not have believed that myself.”

    Dear Mark,

    The writers don’t “have” Giles, or any other character, do anything. These episodes are dramatized productions based on real people and real events. I thought everybody knew that.


    P.S. Same as with the X-Files.
    P.P.S Not to mention the Lord of the Rings.

  57. ScarecrowCeno says:

    R.I.P. Mr Trick.

    Actually, this bugs me. Brilliant episode but Mr Trick, so far pretty much the only main ethnic villain and vampire and he gets the worst treatment of the lot. In the narrative it works for Faith's story and I get that and all, but really, after Spike and Dru skip town, we get Mr Trick who has such a brilliant set-up and is wasted.

    An Uzi. his own idea. Why didn't he do it? The whole point of him is that modern approach. Not putting a gun in his hands seems a betrayal of the character in order to kill him.

    What annoys me more is Natry gur frevrf jnf evtug nobhg gb unccra. Jbysenz naq Uneg naq gur YN frggvat jbhyq unir orra *cresrpg* sbe Ze Gevpx. gurer'f fb znal cbffvovyvgvrf gurer sbe gur uvtu sylvat pvgl inzcver jvgu n zbqrea nggvghqr.

    Fcvxr naq Qeh trg gb yvir. Unezbal yvirf. Qneyn pbzrf onpx gb yvsr. Jr frr Gur Znfgre ntnva va sbezf. Uryy, rira Tbepu fheivirf. Ohg Ze Gevpx? Qhfgrq va n jnl gung'f bhg bs punenpgre naq jvgubhg n frpbaq tynapr.

    V ybir Ohssl ohg fbzrgvzrf vg srryf yvxr vg'f qryvorengyl oevatvat vg'f enpr naq frkhny cbyvgvpf vffhrf qbja ba vgf bja urnq.

  58. It is a bit silly of him to think that he could do any good, but it also makes sense to me that someone so inexperienced with sex would come to those conclusions. For a lot of people, it really does feel like a big enough deal when they first have it that I can totally buy Xander thinking it would change things. I also like the subversion of having a man be more emotional about a sexual experience and having the woman shrug it off. I think that's neat and something that it isn't seen enough in fiction.

    • robin_comments says:

      I also like the subversion of having a man be more emotional about a sexual experience and having the woman shrug it off.
      That's an interesting observation. I like to pinpoint these little subversive moments in BtVS, like the Buffy/Angel taking on opposite gender ghosts, Oz saying he's not ready for sex, and yeah, here Xander got an emotional connection from sex while Faith didn't.

      that's what's fun about following Mark Watches. sometimes people pick up on things that I haven't thought about before. πŸ™‚

  59. Kari18212 says:

    The main thing I get out of this episode is DAMN these people can act. From Angel trying to connect with Faith to Willow and Buffy crying and of course the MVP of this episode Faith, they are all just SO GOOD. I feel like it's just a given at this point, but I think the high emotions in this episode really highlighted for me that they are all super talented. Plus, Eliza Dushku was just flawless, selling every dark turn Faith took while still subtly showing that there are deeper emotions there that she's repressing. That scene with Buffy and Faith at the docks just floors me-it's just so intense and both girls are just so good. To sum up, SO MANY FEELINGS THEY ARE ALL AMAZING <3

  60. On Wesley:

    I think that Wesley's behavior here is a classic analysis of the kind of person who means very well but also is obsessed with following rules. He has been trained to trust The Council — trained to impress them, really — and as a result thinks that whatever they would want done in this situation is best. Of course he is abysmally and terribly wrong. Rules are all well and good, but good people must be prepared to break rules sometimes, especially rules that are counterproductive or don't make sense.

    This is just an interesting idea to me because for a long time I was an obsessive rule-follower (very like early Hermione). However, towards the end of high school the dislike of authority my father had finally started to show up and I started seeing how terrible and beurocratic and ridiculous my school district was. I think it was a really important day for me when I realized that just because something is a rule doesn't mean it is a good rule. College = much more laid back as a result.

    V'z abg gelvat gb erzbir oynzr sebz Jrfyrl. V guvax ur ernyyl fperjrq hc urer. Ohg V nyfb qba'g ungr uvz sbe vg. V xvaq bs trg vg. Naq jura ur ernyvmrf ur'f znqr n zvfgnxr, gung'f tbvat gb or n irel qvssvphyg qnl sbe uvz. Vs lbh qrcraq ba bar rkgreany ragvgl (Gur Pbhapvy) gb gryy lbh jung gb qb, jung unccraf jura lbh ernyvmr lbh pna'g nyjnlf gehfg gurz. Va snpg, V guvax guvf vf jurer Jrfyrl'f qrirybczrag nf n punenpgre ernyyl ortvaf. Naq jung punenpgre qrirybczrag vg orpbzrf! V fgvyy pna'g oryvrir gung guvf vf gur fnzr zna gung qvrf va Abg Snqr Njnl.

  61. WhiteEyedCat says:

    This episode is a perfect example of why I don't personally like Faith, but I think that she's a great character. I'm still not entirely sure why Faith bothers me so much, but her actions in this episode are a pretty good example. It's clear that she is guilty that she killed somebody, but she works so hard to convince herself that she's not accountable, and to convince everybody else that it had nothing to do with her, that I think she manages to get some sort of closure from it.

    This episode is really painful to watch, the Scoobies have no idea what to do to help Faith since there's sort of a weird relationship between them. I think that both parties are at fault for this, the Scoobies could have been more inclusive, and Faith could have reached out a little more. It was a tricky situation though, since Faith didn't go to school with them, where so much of their bonding and monster discussion takes place.

    Anyway, I love Faith joining with the Mayor since it creates a really interesting twist for her character, and makes the Mayor that much more fascinating. Weirdly enough I actually really like the Mayor, even though he is absolutely evil. Actually I think that's part of why I like him so much, he is evil, he accepts this, he is efficient about it.

  62. quenstalof says:

    All this Watcher council stuff confuses me. I mean I enjoyed watching the episode, but i have to squint and tilt my head a little to justify it. They get to have authority over these young women who have no choice in their calling? And they justify this how?

    And they'd lock up Faith. Have they done this to other Slayers? Should they do that? Won't that mess up the balance between good and evil? and how would that affect the "one is born unto every generation" thing? With a Slayer locked up and sheltered from dying? Maybe they should just kill them instead of locking them up so they can start over with a new one?

    Also! Why didn't Wesley just use the power-draining Slayer drug from Helpless? Ugh!

    • robin_comments says:

      They get to have authority over these young women who have no choice in their calling? And they justify this how?
      I know, it's creepy right?. They have the authority because they say they do, and they're the ones with control — they find these girls when they're young and vulnerable, hold all the keys to knowledge, set the rules, and tell them that it's supposed to be like this.

      No one is watching the watchers. There's historically only been 1 slayer, so they can't band together, they can't vote. And there's no oversight of the watcher judicial system.

      • quenstalof says:

        You'd think they'd have a little bit more experience dealing with teenage girls if that's their target audience right?

        I'd love to get more history on the Watchers. How did they find out about new Slayers and how did they even discover the very first one? Are Slayers like a reverse-curse on humanity?

        Hopefully we'll get the answers to some of these questions next time on Buffy the Vampire Slayer….

    • DonSample says:

      It's their sacred duty, divine right, ancient tradition, etc. In other words, how people have gotten and maintained power throughout 99.99% of human history.

    • pica_scribit says:

      Welcome to the Patriarchy! It's not a terribly subtle metaphor in this case, but yeah, just like in real life, it doesn't make sense.

      The Watchers are a bunch of cold-blooded bastards, if you ask me. You've got a Slayer who's more trouble than she's worth? Why wouldn't you just kill her and get yourselves a new one?

  63. Dee says:

    I'm surprised there's no commentary about class issues in Faith's (poor, living out of a hotel, no family or support system) characterisation vs. Buffy's (parents divorced but middle class background and support).

  64. Imo says:

    Terng ovt Natry: GF fcbvyref:

    V ybir gung guvf rcvfbqr vf zveeberq fb cresrpgyl va gur Natry rcvfbqr Fnapghnel. V jngpurq obgu dhvgr erpragyl naq V'q arire ernyyl abgvprq orsber gung Fnapghnel vf onfvpnyyl Pbafrdhraprf … ohg vs vg jrag evtug!
    Snvgu tvirf urefrys hc gb Natry ibyhagnevyl, fur ernyyl nfxf sbe uryc, engure guna univat gb or punvarq qbja. Fb Natry pna qb zber npghny urycvat, yvxr sbbq, jnfu, orq rgp, engure guna univat gb crefhnqr ure gung ur haqrefgnaqf. Gura Jrfyrl orgenlf gur Pbhapvy vafgrnq bs pnyyvat gurz naq ng gur raq bs obgu rcvfbqrf Snvgu fubjf hc fbzrjurer harkcrpgrqyl – bayl va Fnapghnel fur'f gnxvat erfcbafvovyvgl sbe ure npgvbaf vafgrnq bs qralvat gurz.
    Vg'f n terng cvrpr bs ersrerapvat – "urer'f jung pbhyq unir unccrarq!"

  65. fakehepburn says:

    No spoilers, but I'm going to make a controversial statement:

    Wesley is my favourite character.

    <img src="; alt="" title="Hosted by" />

  66. robin_comments says:

    sounds really intriguing! I might check this out…

  67. zephyras13 says:

    This is the episode that solidified my hatred of Faith. I wasn't particularly interested in her before this, but the complete lack of responsibility for killing someone really pissed me off. (Even though that's a realistic and understandable reaction, especially considering her age.) But then she tries to FRAME BUFFY and I WANTED HER TO DIE. Seriously I spent gur erfg bs frnfba guerr, "Guvf Lrne'f Tvey," naq "Jub Ner Lbh," fpernzvat "QVR, SNVGU, QVR!" ng gur gi fperra. V jnf fb znq Ohssl qvqa'g xvyy ure bss va "Tenqhngvba" naq rira zber fb jura gurl oebhtug ure onpx sbe frnfba sbhe. Jura gurl gevrq gb znxr ure zber flzcngurgvp va "Jub Ner Lbh" V jnf npghnyyl naablrq, orpnhfr V whfg jnagrq ure QRNQ. Naq gura, gur ynfg srj zvahgrf bs "Svir ol Svir": "NATRY, WHFG XVYY URE NYERNQ…jnvg, jung?"

    Naq gung'f ubj Snvgu orpnzr bar bs zl snibevgr punenpgref.

    And yeah, Angel's speech doesn't really make much sense here, considering, you know, Faith wasn't out slaughtering people, ohg vs lbh guvax nobhg vg, Natry npghnyyl cerqvpgrq jurer fur jnf tbvat gb tb sebz gurer. Ur xarj orggre guna jr qvq jung Snvgu jnf tbvat gb orpbzr and you've got to give him credit for that.

  68. Andrew says:

    Oh god, did the crystal Buffy was holding in that scene come into it? WHY BRAIN WHY?!

  69. DonSample says:

    Buffy Body Count totals for this episode:

    2 mook vampires and Mr. Trick, all staked by Faith.

  70. Smurphy says:

    I don't like Faith.

  71. yorkshirgal says:

    Way to kick a guy when he's down.

    I didn't find it laughable at all that Xander thought there was more to the night. He thought they had a connection. He gets ripped up. I guess that's laughable to you but to me it's terribly sad.

    He really was trying to help. Buffy's comment about him being a joke hurt him.

    I don't think he went there for any other reason than to help her — and I didn't find it laughable at all.

  72. yorkshiregal says:

    Character thoughts:
    Faith – she really went round the bend. I felt bad for her even though she was doing horrible things. I love the song playing as she's watching TV.
    Xander – my heart bleeds for him. He was totally gutted by what Buffy said and what Faith did.
    Willow – ditto. I think part of it is knowing the fairy tale w/ Xander is over (even though she herself had turned away from it) but also part of her probably thinks Xander should have been with someone special — I think part of her sorrow if for Xander.
    Buffy – made me mad with what she said to Xander, even tho she didn't mean to be mean. I loved her going to Willow and seeking out Gile.
    Angel – PERFECT use of his character.
    Wesley – poor schmuck, he's so out of his league
    Giles – this needed immediate action. I wonder if he put Angel onto "Faith watch"?

  73. GamgeeFest says:

    This is a gut-wrenching episode that shows how deep and involved this show can get and what they're willing to do to tell a worthy story. It's often hard to watch. I think Angel could have gotten through to her if he had just been allowed to have the time he needed with her. Fur qbrf, nsgre nyy, ghea gb uvz gb uryc ure ba Natry gur Frevrf, naq V guvax vg'f orpnhfr bs uvf nggrzcg gb uryc ure urer. Fur'f xabjf ur'f gur bayl bar jub pna ernyyl haqrefgnaq jung fur'f tbvat guebhtu.

    The only thing I have left to say is: Qbccrytnatynaq gbzbeebj!!! JURRR!!!!

  74. Danny_SAP says:

    <img src="; />

    BUFFY Faith, we have to tell. I can't pretend to investigate this. I can't pretend that I don't know. FAITH Oh, I see. But you can pretend that Angel's still dead when you need to protect him.

    The text shows Buffy not trusting Faith with information about Angel being alive as the point where Faith shuts Buffy out.
    <img src="; />

    WILKINS Guess it'll take more than this to turn my frown upside down. I just don't understand why Allan would leave such a paper trail about our dealings. Do you think he was gonna betray me? Oh, now, that's a horrible thought. And now he's dead, I'll never have the chance to scold him.

    Also it does seem that Allan was going to turn on the Mayor. A point in favor of "just wanted a quiet job in local government."
    <img src="; />

    FAITH He came out of nowhere. BUFFY I know. FAITH Whatever. I'm not lookin' to hug and cry and learn and grow. I'm just saying it happened quick, you know?

    Faith cares.
    <img src="; />
    Captain Lurk: King of the Creepers
    <img src="; />

    GILES She may have many talents, Buffy, but fortunately, lying is not one of them.

    It's very true. Faith's lies come out like she's trying to convince herself they're true. Remember her talking about that party on Christmas?
    <img src="; />

    WILLOW I don't need to say 'oh'. I got it before. They slept together.

    Willow doesn't get to have Xander's virginity. Am I supposed to feel bad for her? Am I a bad person for… like… not?
    <img src="; />

    FAITH You wanna feel a connection? It's just skin. I see… I want… I take. I forget. XANDER No. No, wait. It was more than that. FAITH I could do anything to you right now, and you want me to. I can make you scream… I could make you die.

    Faith Faith Faith… I really wish you weren't raping/killing Xander right now because this is really hot. Kink makes for sometimes odd media experiences. A friend of mine gets extremely excited by the torture scene in Casino Royale. The fact that it's fiction complicates the lack of consent within the fiction.
    <img src="; />
    No seriously. It's like a parade of kink designed for me.
    <img src="; />

    GILES Most likely they'll lock her away for a good long while. BUFFY So we head them off at the airport and stop them. WILLOW Can I… I-I'm just wondering. Why? I'm not the most objective, I know. I kind of have an issue with Faith sharing my people. But she murdered someone and accused Buffy. Then she hurt Xander. I hate to say it, but maybe she belongs behind bars.

    <img src="; />
    And the cheese stands alone.

    • notemily says:

      I just remembered something while reading your comment about Allan Finch–why is the photo on his desk of him and THE MAYOR? Does he not have a family? Weird.

  75. Scottish Eddie says:

    Another great episode. My favourite part is how unquantifiable Faith's motives are for rescuing Buffy, so many reasons and I'm sure it's most likely a bit of each.

  76. pica_scribit says:

    I feel like it's more than that. Remember how upset Willow was when she first found out Xander and Cordelia were together and had been hiding their relationship? She said something like, "You'd rather be with someone you hate than be with me." I feel like this is an extension of that. Willow was all about Xander for such a long time. They were best friends, and she probably told herself how good she would be to him, and yet he kept going for women who treated him badly and who he didn't have very deep feelings for instead. It's not at all surprising that she should feel hurt by this.

    • gonzoron says:

      Yeah, that's how I see it. Does she have any sort of right to him? no. Is she committed to working things out with Oz? yeah. But for years, she had these feelings toward Xander, and he seemed not to get it. Then, this year, they "fluked." and it was wrong, but it somehow validated those feelings, that maybe she and Xander could have been together if the timing was different. That he did see her as more than a buddy.

      But now she sees that he did even more than kissing with Faith, who he barely knows, and who is 180 degrees in character from Willow. So what is she to think about Xander's feelings toward her? Will he go after just anybody who's willing? Was his affair with Willow just out of convenience and not any sort of bond? (i.e., should she think the same thing of Xander's interest in Faith (and by extension Willow and Cordy) that Buffy thinks of Faith's interest in Xander?) Did she really risk everything with Oz over her latent feelings for Xander when he didn't have any for her at all?

      And if so, why did he never act on that in the years before Oz and Cordy? If all he wanted was sex, why wasn't Willow ever good enough for that?

      These are the sort of tangled emotions I see (or project onto?) Willow's breakdown here. It's not as much about jealousy as it is questioning her self worth, and her own choices.

      • pica_scribit says:

        Agreed. Willow's relationship with and feelings about Xander are nothing if not complicated. You have to think that she probably imagined them being each other's "first" for a long time, and how important that would have seemed to her, and then contrast that with the relative meaninglessness of his experience with Faith.

  77. notemily says:

    – [Gur Znlbe jvyy npghnyyl abg oevat Snvgu gb whfgvpr ng nyy. Vebavpnyyl.]
    – I hate Faith saying they can investigate it. FAAAAAITH Y U GOTTA BE FULL OF LIES.
    – WESLEY AND CORDELIA! Inappropriate flirting FOREVAH. <3
    – "I like a man with two last names."
    – Buffy is wearing a sparkly dark maroon top. She's a semi-bad girl? (Now I'm overanalyzing all of the wardrobe department's choices.)
    – [Qba'g jbeel, Snvgu, lbh trg bhg bs wnvy riraghnyyl.]
    – "Usually using the shredder gives me a lift!" Yeah, it would, because you are PURE EVIL.
    – So Finch was going to tell the Slayers about the Mayor? It kind of seems that way, but we really don't know why he was in that random place, and the episode didn't give us any clues.
    – I hate that policeman! It's the same one who was an asshole in "Ted" and "Becoming." I will never forgive him for judging Buffy's lack of bruises as evidence that she wasn't REALLY assaulted.
    – Buffy crying at Willow's just breaks my heart. OH BUFFY you can have all my hugs.
    – Always go to Giles! Haven't you learned anything by now, Buffy?
    – I do think it's hard for Faith to go to the police on this though. Because what exactly does she say about why she was out there with a WOODEN STAKE and accidentally stabbed a guy? And as for the watcher's council dealing out their own brand of justice, after what they made Buffy go through in "Helpless," do you really trust them? I don't think Faith makes the wisest choices in this ep, but I also don't think she has a lot of great options here.
    – GILES KNOWS. ILU Giles.
    – Willow crying about Faith and Xander… On the one hand, she specifically stopped being with Xander in order to be with Oz. But on the other hand, emotions don't always make sense and Willow has had a years-long crush on Xander and I totally understand why she is sad. *hugs*.
    – And a million sad livejournal icons were born that day.
    – Faaaaith stop raping Xander
    – "Not like this." That's kind of Xander's line, isn't it? He says the same thing to Buffy in BB&B.
    – Faaaaith stop KILLING XANDER
    – Angel knows what's up. And I think he's really getting somewhere here, but Wesley has to come in and screw up everything.
    – "There's my girl." Hott!
    – "Once you've tasted a slayer, you never go back." Is that a black joke?
    – A job opening OF EVIIIIIL

    • robin_comments says:

      WESLEY AND CORDELIA! Inappropriate flirting FOREVAH. <3
      every time I see BtVS! wesley & cordelia together I just want those zany kids to work it out. so awkwardly cute.

  78. notemily says:

    The scene with Willow crying alone in the bathroom just breaks my heart. She's upset that Xander had sex with Faith. I think that even though she recommitted herself to Oz, part of her hadn't quite accepted that Xander wouldn't be her first. She's been in love with him for practically her entire life and those aren't feelings you just get over. At the same time, she knows she doesn't exactly have a right to be that upset. And so, instead of turning to Buffy or Oz for comfort, she sobs her heart out all alone on a toilet.

    Yes, this. I mean, when I was a kid I had crushes on guys, and I imagined myself marrying them even though I was like ten years old. I can just imagine how many fantasies Willow has had that Xander would someday wake up and realize she was the one for him and they'd be together forever. Even though she knows, intellectually, that that's not going to happen, emotionally it's still a punch in the gut.

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