In the thirteenth episode of the second season of Battlestar Galactica, President Laura Roslin’s health status becomes dire as the cancer in her body begins to shut it down. In these moments, we learn of her past as the Secretary of Education. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to watch Battlestar Galactica.
I just don’t get it. Is there sorcery at work here? Pacts with otherworldly beings? Sacrifice of family members? How the fuck does this show get more agonizing and intense with each new episode? How can a show that tackles deeply serious social issues not allow those issues to distract from the brilliant acting and character development? And throughout this all, it’s still entertaining? WHERE IS THE CATCH?
There isn’t one so far. And to be fair, there’s no magic involved here, and full credit goes to Ronald Moore, the writers, and the spectacular crew who have made this show. I’m already that guy, y’all. Over the past week, I have begged nearly anyone who is close to me to start watching Battlestar Galactica so that I have more personal friends I can shriek to when I get to parts like…like all of this episode? And I become that person who can’t even form coherent sentences when you try to explain why one should watch a show or watch a book. OMG SO LIKE IT’S REALLY GOOD, AND SHIT IS SO REAL, AND THERE IS LIKE…OKAY, I DON’T WANT TO SPOIL IT FOR YOU, BUT IMAGINE THE MOST HYPER-REAL SPACE ADVENTURE, BUT IT’S NOT LIKE SUPER SCI-FI? OH GOD AM I EVEN MAKING SENSE? IT’S REAL GOOD AND YOU WILL LOVE IT AND OMG STUFF.
Basically. But honestly, I cannot believe how many revelations we were given. I almost typed, “I cannot believe how many EPIPHANIES I had,” but I got a lifetime’s worth of puns and wordplay on the Jungle Cruise ride at Disneyland on Monday. And I’ve not done this in a bit, and I think it would be fun to split this episode up this way to digest it. Shall we?
SHIT GOT REAL MOMENTS IN “EPIPHANIES”
1) Roslin orders Sharon’s baby to be aborted against her will.
I mean, right from the get-go, after we learn that Roslin is dying, this episode just hands us an awful and terrifying plot twist to set up the entire story. As soon as she said it, I just put my head in my hands and wished this would all go away. Of course, that’s absurd, but I knew that Sharon and Helo would be destroyed by this. I was interested to see how it would play out and if anyone else would oppose this, but I mostly just didn’t want it to happen. IT’S TOO MUCH, OKAY.
And it’s not made any easier to cope with once I saw both Sharon’s and Helo’s reactions to the news, and then Helo’s actions later in the episode when he tries to stop the Marines and Adama from carrying out the abortion. This show makes me feel many things that hurt my heart. I don’t like it. I don’t like it at all. It’s a gross decision on the part of Roslin, and it upset me that so many people were totally willing to kill an unborn child against the mother’s will. It’s an extension of what I spoke about in yesterday’s review: the human race is busy destroying itself without any intervention from the Cylons. How distressing.
2) There is a political group that wants to make peace with the Cylons. Oh, and they’re terrorists.
I love that episodes are routinely able to balance multiple themes and stories. It gives this all a more realistic feel because lots of things are happening all of the time. It’s a benefit of having an ensemble cast like this because we’re given a better look at life aboard the Galactica. In this case, we learn of a movement to seek peace from the Cylons. (Are they actually called “Demand Peace” or was that just a phrase used? I don’t feel like that’s some epic spoiler, so you can confirm this if you want.)
The storyline brings up a good point (to an extent): the fleet’s constant use of “attack-and-retreat” isn’t really doing anything aside from putting the human race at risk, or buying a few more day’s time. That isn’t to say I don’t understand why they’ve been doing that. The Galactica crew is made up of the military. They would naturally approach this issue in the way they have, and I think they’ve done a fantastic job of keeping the fleet safe and alive with only a few slips worth nothing throughout the process.
Still, while I acknowledge that I had not even thought about the idea of making peace with the Cylons, there are two glaring problems with this. First of all, I don’t think the Cylons want peace, and I thought it was accepted that this was a reality? They want to eliminate the existence of humans, and if you offer them peace, doesn’t that mean they’ll just…exterminate everyone? OMG THEY ARE DALEKS. Maybe there is another way this could end, but the Cylons made it pretty clear they don’t think humans should be around anymore.
But let’s say that this is still a possibility, even if that possibility is real slim. My main problem with the peace movement? Their inherent hypocrisy. WE WANT PEACE, they scream, as they SABOTAGE STARBUCK’S AMMUNITION and then BOMB A TYLLIUM SHIP. Nope, sorry, don’t wanna listen to anything you say anymore! Ugh, that scene with the ship blowing up….hell, IT IS SO DISTURBING TO ME. Seriously, though, I don’t get how this group can claim to want peace and then BLOW SHIT UP. That is INHERENTLY A CONTRADICTION.
3) The Pegasus version of Six works for the peace movement.
My head nearly became obsolete thinking of the implications of this. She is a Cylon. Working for peace. From the Cylons. It’s both the best and worst place for her to hide, and then I think about it, and it’s definitely the best place. So is she actually going to try to work for peace genuinely? Or is it all a set-up to trick the humans? Does she still follow Cylon orders? THERE ARE SO MANY LOGISTICAL QUESTIONS I NEED TO KNOW THE ANSWERS TO.
(I also want to acknowledge how much I enjoy that the writers make sure to have Six reject Baltar’s advances in the way that they do, to point out how presumptive it is of Baltar and to show us the ongoing effects of the torture and abuse at the hands of Admiral Cain’s military forces.)
Oh god, so much awkward and awesome and OH GOD SO MUCH SHIT WILL GET REAL, WON’T IT?
4) STEM CELLS STEM CELLS CYLONS BABIES OH MY FUCKING GOD
The stem cell argument, presented to us through Sharon’s baby. The political science nerd in me loved it, and then the Sharon fan in me loved it because her abortion was stopped. Baltar, you beautiful genius. But seriously, can we discuss the implications of this? First of all, it gives us the idea that ignorance can breed hatred and violence against other people, and I’m still furious that so many people wanted to kill something they knew nothing about, instead basing their feelings entirely on emotions and guesses.
While I am glad that Sharon’s child will be allowed to come to term, I am worried that it is being kept alive so that the humans can use it, that this final stay is only for selfish purposes. Are they going to keep the child away from Sharon and Helo? Will it be used to harvest blood to cure human diseases? Is it destined to have a life of being a lab rat? How the HELL is Roslin going to react to knowing she has Cylon-human blood inside of her? OH GOD. OH GOD.
5) Roslin remembers seeing Baltar and Six together.
I really adore the method that the writers used to explore Roslin’s backstory on Caprica before the Cylon attack, memories swirling into her consciousness as she dies from the cancer. I never thought we’d see President Adar, either, and you can see why she always would have made a good leader in those days of her life.
But it’s the sickness and the exhaustion that brings back a memory she’d never have had remembered: On her way to the Galactica decomissioning ceremony, she sees Baltar and Six kissing. And that’s sometimes how memory works, and it’s just after this that she awakes to see the doctor standing over her.
JESUS CHRIST SOMEONE KNOWS. SOMEONE KNOWS WHO BALTAR REALLY IS. And it’s the goddamn president. Oh my god, I am literally so unprepared for everything ever.
6) Baltar has chosen sides.
THIS COULD NOT BE MORE POORLY TIMED. Six helps Baltar realize that Roslin doesn’t necessarily think that highly of him, and she continues to plant the seed that Baltar actually needs to be leading the human fleet. It’s been a long time coming, and there was a moment here in “Epiphanies” where Baltar believed he’d actually become the president. But here in this episode, he plants himself squarely on the side of the peace movement, offering the Pegasus Six a sign that he truly means his pledge of support:
HE GIVES THEM THE NUCLEAR WARHEAD HE USED TO DEVELOP A CYLON TEST.
you are kidding me I CANNOT DEAL WITH THIS SHOW.
Even though there are lots of things I love about this episode, unfortunately it’s probably my least favourite episode of BSG so far. It really brought to light some of the issues I’ve had with season 2, and most of them having to do with pacing/the timeline and the pregnancy arc. I realized I don’t really like the way the show has dealt with Sharon’s pregnancy- it seems like a really convenient plot point more than anything else, with no regard to how pregnancy actually works or its emotional implications. The crew has known about the pregnancy for a while, so I don’t understand why the fetus’ abnormalities are brought up now except that it’s a really neat way to save Roslin. So far, the pregnancy is only really mentioned when Helo tries to save Sharon (she’s carrying my child!) or when Sharon reminds Helo she loves him (you’re the father of my child!).
Cont’d
I feel like if the abnormalities were introduced earlier and if it seemed like Balter was studying them for a while, then Roslin’s “cure” would be more believable. This way Sharon’s pregnancy could be addressed throughout the series, and they could even explain why she magically seemed to jump a whole trimester if they didn’t want to fix that part (maybe Cylon pregnancies are shorter? I don’t know but it’s better than hoping the audience won’t notice Sharon’s bump going from non-existent to PREGNANT!! in 45 minutes).
This episode made me think of The Farm, and I realized that Starbuck hasn’t really suffered any emotional trauma from almost being turned into a human incubator. I know that she’s a tough girl, but I think it’s unrealistic that she would go through such a traumatic event and be fine. Maybe that episode set something up for later, but for a show that is so good at capturing emotions, I’m surprised they don’t deal with this one.
To be fair on the pregnancy bump, they did mention that a pretty significant amount of time had passed from Resurrection Ship part II to this episode – at least a month or two.
ETA: Well, maybe not a month or two. Starbuck says something to Lee about how it's been a while, at least, since his "spacewalk"
When Roslin is flashing back to the day of the attack, it's says 189 days previously. That works out to a little over six months, which definitely gives time for Sharon and Helo to have conceived and for Sharon to be this far along in the pregnancy
Her bump did appear pretty suddenly, but I don't think they just skipped a trimester. Time has passed since Resurrection Ship, and I believe weight gain happens quicker in the second semester, so it's not wholy unbelievable. It's pretty typical of how pregnancies are handled on teevee, though, so we can shake our heads at the whole medium.
I'd like to see some more from Starbuck about almost being turned into a baby factory, too. I'm just hoping it comes up again. Maybe if they return to Caprica.
I'm still unsure how I feel about the whole stem cell storyline. On the one hand, I absolutely loathe when a death has been foreshadowed over and over again in a show and then the character is ~magically saved by science~ at the last minute. On the other, hand the character in question is Laura Roslin, ultimate HBIC, so I'm just left going meh.
MARK I FEEL YOUR PAIN! I was just trying to explain to a coworker today why he should be watching this show! It's hard to explain without spoiling anything but honestly, if you like things that are AWESOME, you gotta be watching this!!
My mom sold me on it by saying "Joss Whedon says it's the best show currently on television", which is pretty much all the endorsement I need.
His endorsement is what got me to watch Veronica Mars!
Yeah, that would get me to watch it too lol!
Yeah, that's what got me into it too.
Though the love, that happened on its own – I never really fell in love with Veronica Mars, only liked it a good deal. While BSG basically grabbed my heart from the word go, tore it into little pieces and left me bloodied and in tears (and let's not even talk about what the finale felt like), it's basically like the TV love of my life*.
*all metaphorical, of course. Otherwise it'd just be alarming.
I always have problems with this kind of thing.
I'm a big fan of Babylon 5, but whenever I try to persuade people to watch that, it's really difficult to tell them WHY. Basically the best part of the show is the number of shocking plot twists and ongoing character development that you can't tell people about without completely spoiling the whole thing. :/
The two I have the hardest explaining to people are Community and Avatar. Community is impossible to describe to people, besides just telling them it is awesome, and like nothing else out there. And with Avatar, I usually lose people with "It's an animated show that aired on Nickelodeon" they immediately write off every thing else you have to say (this is of course after you explain to them that "No, this is the movie with the blue people Avatar, this is something entirely different.
Yeah I get the same thing if I ever recommend an anime to someone. So many people get stuck at the idea of anything animated being complex or mature in it's themes and characterisation.
But….Satoshi Kon! (RIP) Studio Ghibli! Production I.G.!
Honestly, if people want to miss out on the beauty and occasionally complete terror/heartbreak that comes with the territory of some of those things….I say let them.
It’s so hard to explain why B5 is the best TV show of all time, isn’t it? The best I can say, really, is that the characters are amazing, the plot is amazing, characters change, and every time that JMS raises a question, he already knows what the answer is! Do you know how rare that is? (Of course you do, you adore B5.)
I admit it, I'm not a fan of this episode. It might be because I'm re-watching this and don't have that perspective of 'everything is golden what will happen next omg??' But honestly, I don't recall enjoying this episode that much the first time around.
Major scientific bullshit going on in this ep (so bad it hurtsssssss). A plot I felt was just too neatly resolved. Pegasus-Six's rape being framed by Baltar's character again (look, I'm glad we see the effects of her rape and torture on her, but seriously, making it about Baltar as well just irritates me so much). Baltar giving a cylon a nuclear warhead and still not getting punched in the face.
Well, to be fair, no one knows about the warhead. I imagine if anyone had found out while he was doing it, Baltar would get airlocked.
Top Ten Things You Should Not Give a Cylon
1. A nuke
2. Sorry, you gave a Cylon a nuke and the rest of this list exploded.
lol forever. Can someone punch Baltar in the face a few times already? Six, maybe?
So many feelings about this episode:
-There’s very little I hate more than someone else deciding what happens to a woman’s body. So, President Roslin ordering an abortion of Sharon’s fetus was the most awful thing ever. I just did not get the reasoning behind this. ‘Protecting the fleet’ seemed more like an excuse in the face of something she didn’t understand or was afraid to. Why do you make me doubt you in a moment like this, Laura?
Thankfully, things didn’t go as bad as I expected them to. In fact, they went rather conveniently (maybe a little TOO conveniently for my tastes).I’d have appreciated it more if we’d seen (onscreen) Sharon giving her consent for that giant needle being stuck in her body, though.
–“If that is your way, then I urge you to pray for our President. As for the others, I hope you will join me in keeping her in our thoughts.” One of the best lines on the show. I have my issues with religion and I’ve definitely been apprehensive at how it’s portrayed on the show but this line made me a lot more comfortable with the way things are going.
-Gaius Baltar makes me like him and dislike him in the span of minutes. Refusing to accept the termination of Sharon’s pregnancy? Like. Forcing a kiss on Six after knowing what she’s been through? Dislike. Finding a cure for Roslin’s cancer while simultaneously protecting Sharon? Like. His reaction to Laura’s letter? DISLIKE. What the hell, dude? Have you met YOU? You are the most selfish arsehole in the known universe, we’ve seen repeated examples of this, the Six in your head has been quite happy to point this fact out every other episode and suddenly, because Laura Roslin calls you on it, your feelings get hurt and you send a nuclear bomb to someone very possibly dangerous? For such a brilliant scientist, your logic is frighteningly lacking.
I agree with all of your feelings. And as repellent as I find him most of the time, Baltar's occasional shining moments and his crappy behavior keep the story interesting. I mean, a nuke? Really?
I wouldn't have it any other way with Baltar. He is really intriguing but he also has a way of making me very, VERY angry. But conflicted feelings are always good to have for a show!
I’d have appreciated it more if we’d seen (onscreen) Sharon giving her consent for that giant needle being stuck in her body, though.
Even if we had seen that, it comes down to "we're going to kill your fetus unless you let us do this" which really isn't a choice at all. I don't think there's any way Sharon could have consented to that.
I was really astounded at that line of Adama's. I was so happy that a key leader would come out and admit his atheism like that, especially in such a religious culture. Then I realized that it probably wouldn't happen in America and actually got a little sad. I mean, I can't imagine a president giving a speech like that and not getting torn apart in the media. BSG gives me an interesting mix of dystopia (end of the world) and utopia (equality!)
You're right – there was really no choice for Sharon to make there. It's an 'agree (though we can force you so your opinion doesn't really matter) or die' situation. But, as I said, other people's decisions over a woman's body make my skin crawl.
Unfortunately, a speech like that doesn't seem likely to come any time soon from leaders in general. In my country, unofficially you can't even really run for office if you're not greek orthodox. But it was really good to see Adama admit to his atheism so openly. It made me much more comfortable with the religious aspects of the show.
Yeah, when I was a kid and realized that I would never have an openly non-religious president, maybe not even a governor, senator, or US rep, I was really sad. I still am, a little. Adama's public mention of us other people was nice to hear. Just to prove your point, I think Obama acknowledged non-believers in his inaugural address–first president ever to do so!–and people made hay of it.
It's weird that it's basically the other way around here in England! I think most of our leaders are vaguely religious, but try not to talk about it too much. I read a great article in a newspaper the other day about the role of religion in politics in England, in which a politician was quoted as saying 'If you say you believe in God, people think you're a bit of a nutter.'
AGREE VERY MUCH WITH ALL OF THIS.
Sorry, I don't have more to add. Just. Yes, to everything you said.
What the hell, dude? Have you met YOU?
I think that's part of the fascination of Baltar – he's a narcissistic asshole with the self-awareness of a gnat and better instincts for self-preservation than even cockroaches. Six is literally the ONLY person so far who's humanised him a little because she's the only person/people he's ever had feelings for, but he's still the selfish asshole who puts his own skin first.
Ugh, poor Sharon and Helo. That's just my overwhelming reaction to this episode. They seem doomed to being jerked around by the whims of the fleet, and now their fetus is a panacea? Every time someone gets the snifoos, is Doc Cottle going to pay Sharon's uterus a visit? Man, there are some fucked up implications here.
And how did the blood work that fast? I mean, other than sci-fi magic. And OMG, Cylons have Bombay blood type?! Now we know what to look out for. And Roslin, I am none too happy with your rashness in deciding that the fetus must be aborted. There are abnormalities. Is that really all the argument you need?
Oh gods, President Adar is Scott Walker. Poor Caprica. It's probably for the best that the Cylons blew it up. Yeah, the hypocrisy of the pro-Cylon group is striking, but it's true to life for terrorist groups who use violence and oppression to oppose violence and oppression. I do think that the small attacks against a force that can much more easily regenerate itself is pointless, and the status quo in the fleet must change if humanity is to succeed, but non-violent resistance, please.
LOL SCOTT WALKER. I'm from Milwaukee and that made me crack up.
You poor thing. Actually, I think I remember you mentioning him screwing up high-speed rail back when we were reading THG. He pops up too frequently!
He fucked up my city and now he's fucking up my state. I hate to think about what he'll do next.
I like that Baltar spends most of this episode helping the president and Sharon (for mostly selfish reasons, though), and becomes a straight up comic book villain at the end. I mean, the look from the balcony. The delivery of a nuclear warhead. And the turning point when Six reads Roslin's letter to him is just perfect.
Did anyone else notice Tigh's creepy little smile when Adama was choking the prisoner? It unnerved me.
And poor Sharon. She just doesn't even get a choice in this episode, at any point. They're going to abort her baby. The only reason the don't is because it's blood can cure the president's cancer. And Helo's telling her it will be okay, but that's still quite the violation. Does not bode well. But it does continue to play into the are cylons people theme. I think by now the audience is mostly supposed to accept that they are people, but the fleet isn't there. Will they get there?
Ron Moore was worried that the stem cell thing would seem like technobabble, so he cut out a lot of the explanation for how the hybrid blood works. Which of course led to fans complaining that it was Star Trek style "wonderful, magical science" that works just because the script says it does. He's regretted it ever since.
I wish he had included it, too. I saw Baltar's (sorta) amino acid scribbles and thought that I would be getting some sweet biochemical action, and then it was just blood shape! They're different!
OH. I didn't have a problem with it as it is. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT FANDOM DISLIKES. That's really fascinating to me.
There's a viewable prop of his diagrams somewhere on the net.
I know! He got out a marker and I was all ooh, ready to pause and analyze what he's drawing.
And then he draws what, a hexagon and an octagon.
Well this show does love its octagons.
I will accept miracle science babies so long as Laura Roslin doesn't die. However, Laura needs to maybe stop trying to abort miracle science babies. But it all goes back to the question that I think has been the overarching theme of this season: Sharon and her person-ness and how they're all dealing with it. Roslin treating her as an 'it' that needs to have the pregnancy removed is, to me, along a disturbingly similar line to the men on the Pegasus believing that Six was not to be treated humanely because she was not human.
Oh gods, possibly the saddest episode so far? Or at least one of them. Space Mommy being close to death is so hard to watch, particularly the reactions of the crew when Bill announces her prognosis. NGL I nearly started crying while rewatching that scene. Billy staying with her as much as possible is really sweet and the look he gives Gaius when the latter is sitting in Laura's chair. I doubt you'd have had much support from him either Gaius
Something that always strikes me during the flashback scenes is how different Laura looks in them. She's back in the costume we were first introduced to her in the miniseries and it just looks wrong on her now. She's shifted more to darker, more serious colours and the light pink feels out of place on her (it's more of an Ellen Tigh colour than a Laura one). It shows us visually just how much she's developed since then.
Poor Sharon and Helo. Her rage when Helo tells her about Laura's orders is so scary to watch, smashing her head against the glass makes me jump every time.
The moment during Giaus and Head!Six where she grabs his tie and it switches to him holding it up without cutting, it's a tiny moment but I love how well done it is. The people walking past and staring at him just reinforce how weird the rest of the fleet must think he is. The letter from Laura, while she does raise a lot of valid points, is incredibly harsh.
HE GIVES THEM THE NUCLEAR WARHEAD HE USED TO DEVELOP A CYLON TEST.
I love Gina's initial reaction when she sees it, namely to GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM IT.
I'm trying to catch up with you guys. I still have 3 episodes in Season 1 and I'm going to need to marathon like woah to catch up with you all. However, I had a dream last night involving a space battle and those Vipers. It was exhausting. I really sympathize with everybody in 33. I was literally asleep and I woke up drained from the fight. You have my respect, pilots.
Y'know, much though I abhor Roslin's decision to terminate someone's baby without their consent, I'm glad the show did it. I feel like it's in keeping with her character, especially as she thinks she's about to die – to Roslin, Sharon is simply a Cylon, and a threat to the fleet. Her baby is an unknown quantity and Roslin quite literally doesn't have time to find out whether it will turn out to be a threat or not. She's about to die, and she's willing to take drastic measures to make sure her people are safe after she's gone.
I also just like it because it makes Roslin a little more morally grey like everyone else. So far she's always made the best choices and been right about everything – it's nice to see her make a really harsh decision that would have terrible consequences for characters we love. It doesn't make her any less likeable, but it does make her more believable as a person. When it comes down to it, she's just as susceptible to making bad choices based on fear as anyone else. It's good to see her ..well, in the wrong for once!
Urg, Gaius was so close to making me like him in this episode! And then he screwed it all up at the end. His reaction to that letter was completely unreasonable too – after ALL he's done. After everything he's done that other people don't even know about! He still has the audacity to be offended when someone calls him out on being a bit egotistical! I think Roslin's letter was remarkably kind and tactful, considering.
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I agree with everything you said. I love Roslin dearly, but every character needs some kind of flaw, or at least morally ambiguous decision, to stay realistic, especially in a show like this, where there are so many grey areas. She doesn’t think of Sharon as human (remember, she was ready to throw her out the airlock within seconds of meeting her) therefore it isn’t a violation to her way of thinking. If you believe she’s just a machine programmed to want a baby, then technically she doesn’t have a choice to begin with. Do I agree with it? Absolutely not. Not in a million years. But I can understand it.
Roslin backstory episode! Heck yes! Also now I hate Gaius again. Seriously, this guy is starting to give me more emotional whiplash then SNAPE did and Snape gave me lots of emotional whiplash.
you are kidding me I CANNOT DEAL WITH THIS SHOW.
Hahaha, and you're not even halfway through! Just you wait……
Now you know how we felt when it was on (welcome to fandomland, Mark).
Poor Sharon. There's just been so many violations of her body over the past few episodes. So the whole attempt to abort her baby against her will? No me gusta.
This is the episode where I had to stop imagining that President Adar was Lew Ayres, who played the role in the original. Not that I've seen the original or anything (yet), but Lew Ayres is one of my favorite actors from classic Hollywood, one of the mostly forgotten ones, and from everything I've read, he was a pretty interesting dude. It was a sad day for me when I saw this other Adar. It was a nice dream; it lasted almost five minutes.
Random thought: I was watching the latest episodes of The Guild the other day, and there are a number of Mark Watches -related guest stars. I won't mention who they are (spoilers, of course), but if you haven't seen this season of The Guild so far and you've been following this site for a while, you'll see some familiar faces.
This show just keeps kicking Sharon. DNW.
I caught a little bit of an episode of the original BSG(from the 70s) over the long weekend. It didn't have the complex plot, deep characterizations, or moral ambiguity that I've come to love, but it did have some pretty kick ass capes.
I'm going to speak up for an unpopular position, and say that I can understand Roslin's decision. We keep talking about the question of the personhood of Cylons, and the show seems to keep pushing us in the direction of "yes" to the question. But at the beginning of the show, the Cylons killed everybody. They continued to kill everybody after an unconditional surrender. And since the beginning of the show, they've hunted and killed every last human they can get their hands on. Finally, we know that the Cylons lie — that they can hide among us pretending to be allies, all along working to kill us all.
Now what does that remind you of? Because to me, it sort of sounds like Alien / Aliens — a predator that will not accept your surrender, and will do it's best to annihilate and/or assimilate every human it can get it's hands on. And, that will infiltrate humans only to pop out later ready to kill (more literal in that case though). We cheer when Ridley burns the pods (aborting) all the alien babies. We cheer because what comes out of those pods will also work to our destruction.
The "but it's a baby" argument doesn't work, because Roslin knows that a robot baby may come out fully functional and ready to kill everybody (why assume it will come out developmentally the same as a human baby?). And, she knows that Sharon could be lying. She knows that a previous Sharon was able to infiltrate the fleet, make friends, and fool everybody (including herself), before turning on them. Who is to say that this Sharon doesn't share similar programming, or that she's not just an incredible actress? Our entire experience of Cylons is that they lie, and then kill us.
BTB, I adore Sharon and Helo, and shouted "no" at Roslin's decision. But the comments here act like her decision is obviously wrong because it violates Sharon's right of choice. And I think it's possibly a little hypocritical. I wonder if people would complain about Roslin's choice if the Cylons did everything they did here, but they looked more like the monsters from Aliens, and less like really, really, pretty humans. At least, I think it's worth discussion. Should you airlock a dangerous predator if every time you come near it, it tries to kill you? What if sometimes that type of predator doesn't try to kill you for a month or two, but eventually will try to kill you (in all your previous experience with it)?
Our only experience with Cylons is that their eventual goal is to kill us all (even if short-term they seem to work for the fleet). What if Sharon's baby has the capacity to turn into a bomb at birth that could destroy the entire fleet? Why not? That would make sense for the Cylons. And Sharon would still want desperately to bring the baby to term, so she could complete her mission. How would her behavior look any different to the outside perspective?
I think Roslin was wrong because she made her decision based on the timeline of her own death, and not based on giving the scientists time to research the issue. But is everybody here saying that no matter what was gestating in Sharon's uterus (including a monster or a bomb), the humans were not permitted kill it because it would violate Sharon's right of choice — even if her choice was to kill everybody? Okay, hate away.
Ooooooh. I love this comment. Not because I agree or disagree with you per se. But THIS is why I love this show. Cause it's hard to look at every thing as black and white, and this show never gives you a clear answer. Everything is painted with gray tones, and I love that. I love asking these big questions, and then thinking to myself, "shit, I don't know what the correct answer is."
I think you've got a good point here. Keep in mind, we, as the audience has information about Sharon the characters don't. We know she's not exactly playing along with the cylon's plan but the characters can't know that. They have to trust her.
And they don't have many reasons to.
Well, except that she has demonstrated again and again that she is completely on their side now, even going so far as to emit a virus that helped the humans kill a bunch of Cylons. How many more times does she have to do that?
True.
But you also have to take into consideration their experience with Boomer. She was on their side, appeared completely normal….until she wasn't. And even if they trust Sharon, they know very little about the nature of the Cylons. They have no evidence, except her word, that she can't be controlled by the other Cylons.
It's also entirely possible that they Cylons viewed a few dozen Raiders as an acceptable loss in service to some greater plan. They're not operating under the same material constraints as the fleet is.
I'm not saying it's reasonable, and I'm not saying Roslin is right, but that I understand where she's coming from. Real trust is going to take time to develop and it simply hasn't been long enough.
I don't have any hate to contribute because I totally agree with your comment. It is really easy for us to pass judgement on Roslin, because none of us are ever going to have to make these kind of decisions or be put into this situation. Just look at the treatment of Muslim people in this country following 9/11. Fear is a powerful motivator for oppression.
Thanks for the support, but I think the treatment of Muslims is the opposite of what I'm talking about here.
With Muslim people, we have a few individuals trying to kill us, and a huge number of people just trying to live their lives. With the Cylons, we have an ENTIRE alien species trying to annihilate every single one of us, and one individual within that species who may or may not be trying to help. And we have no way of definitely proving if that one individual is actually trying to help, or if she is secretly planning to kill everybody, or worse, secretly programmed to kill everybody without knowing it. Finally, we aren't sure the extent to which her humanity extends to her free will, goals, and ability to kill us all with some kind of baby bomb, or baby virus.
Again, I think Roslin was precipitate. More research is always a good idea. But given that Sharon could be gestating a super-bomb or some other method of wiping out the human race (and all our prior experience with the Cylons suggests she would), I'm not sure that her right to choice would in all circumstances trump our right to survival. And I'm fairly certain it shouldn't trump our right to research what she's carrying to term (and I say "what," not because she's a Cylon and a Cylon baby would not count as a human but because we cannot be certain that Cylons don't have the capacity to gestate something other than a baby).
But is everybody here saying that no matter what was gestating in Sharon's uterus (including a monster or a bomb), the humans were not permitted kill it because it would violate Sharon's right of choice — even if her choice was to kill everybody?
My response to this is based on having seen the whole show (although I think my opinion of this during my first watch was the same as it is now) so the rest will be in rot13 just to be safe.
V jba'g fcrnx sbe rirelobql ohg lrf, gung vf rknpgyl jung V guvax.
Zl ragver nethzrag erfgf ba n) zl oryvrs gung Plybaf ner crbcyr naq o) zl fhfcvpvba gung gur uhznaf oryvrir guvf gbb ohg gurl qba'g jnag gb nqzvg vg naq ner, haqrefgnaqnoyl gb na rkgrag, hfvat gur Plybaf' fhccbfrq fgnghf nf aba-crefbaf gb rknpg eriratr ba gurz. Sbe rknzcyr, gur encr bs CrtnfhfFvk naq gur (nggrzcgrq?) encr bs Funeba. Bayl crbcyr pna encr naq or encrq ohg vs Funeba naq Fvk nera'g crbcyr gura jung jrer gubfr fbyqvref qbvat gb gurz? Gurl jrera'g whfg univat frk jvgu gurz, vs bayl orpnhfr gur fbyqvref jrer funzvat Gleby naq Uryb sbe univat qbar whfg gung. V oryvrir gung gur fbyqvref <v>jnagrq</v> gb encr gur Plybaf naq xarj gurl pbhyq. Orpnhfr Plybaf ner crbcyr. Plybaf unir nphgr cflpubybtvpny erfcbafrf gb genhzn va gur fnzr jnl gung uhznaf (ng guvf cbvag bhe bayl bgure fgnaqneq sbe crefbaubbq) qb. Guvf nphgr cflpubybtvpny genhzn vf rknpgyl jung gur fbyqvref jnagrq/rkcrpgrq gb erfhyg sebz encvat gur Plybaf. Guvf unf pbaivaprq zr gung Plybaf ner crbcyr naq jungrire urvabhf npgvbaf gurl'ir crecrgengrq qba'g zrevg gurve gbegher, encr, naq trareny ivbyngvbaf bs obqvyl vagrtevgl, orlbaq jung vf erdhverq sbe gur uhznaf gb cebgrpg gurzfryirf sebz gur Plybaf (v.r. xvyyvat).
Anyway, all of this word vomit was just to say that I disagree with you but I appreciate the complexity of the issues you've raised. This is such a great show.
Agree with this.
Ohg lbh'er hfvat lbhe xabjyrqtr bs jung npghnyyl unccraf gb nethr ntnvafg n qrpvfvba znqr qhevat ynpx bs cresrpg xabjyrqtr. Jr xabj abj gung Funeba unf n onol, abg n obzo. Ohg Ebfyva qvq abg xabj gung. Naq lbh xrrc vtabevat gur snpg gung rirel gvzr gur Plybaf svaq hf, gurl gel gb xvyy hf. NYY BS HF. Guvf vfa'g n uvfgbevpny vffhr gung unccrarq fbzrgvzr va gur cnfg, vg vf Ebfyva'f pheerag ernyvgl.
Gb nethr gung vg'f jebat gb gnxr Funeba'f onol — hfvat lbhe nqinapr xabjyrqtr gung vg VF n onol — vf gb ershfr gb ratntr jvgu gur dhrfgvba bs jung gb qb jura na nyvra znl or nobhg gb ovegu fbzrguvat gung jvyy rng rirelobql. GUNG jnf gur dhrfgvba Ebfyva jnf snpvat, abg "qb V gnxr eriratr ba gur Plybaf ol xvyyvat n onol."
V nterr gung gur fbyqvref jrer gnxvat eriratr ba gur Plybaf ol encvat Fvk naq gelvat gb encr Funeba. V nterr gung vg jnf hadhrfgvbanoyl jebat. V guvax gbeghevat Plybaf jbhyq or yvxrjvfr jebat orpnhfr gurl pna pyrneyl srry cnva. Gbegher naq encr ner zrnag gb qnzntr, chavfu, naq rknpg eriratr, naq V guvax gurl'er jebat gb crecrgengr ba nal yvivat orvat (vapyhqvat navznyf).
Ohg Plybaf ner abg uhzna. V qba'g zrna gung va gur frafr gung gurl ner yrff guna uhzna, ohg va gur frafr gung gurl ner ebobgf naq unir qvssrerag culfvbybtvrf. Gurl ernpg qvssreragyl gb ahpyrne snyybhg, gurl ner fgebatre, naq gurve pbafpvbhfarff pna or qbjaybnqrq. Ebfyva qbrf abg xabj jurgure gurfr qvssreraprf rkgraq gb Funeba orvat noyr gb trfgngr fbzrguvat qrnqyl gb gur uhzna enpr. Plybaf zvtug or noyr gb qb fb. Jul abg? Vg pbhyq or n phpxbb'f arfg glcr genc sbe gur uhznaf.
Tvira gung gur Plybaf ner gelvat gb xvyy hf nyy — naq ng guvf cbvag va gur fubj gung VF n tvira — Ebfyva unf tbbq ernfba gb npg cerrzcgviryl gb arhgenyvmr n uvtu evfx. Fur qbrf abg xabj Funeba jvyy unir n onol. Lbh frr ab fvghngvba va juvpu fhpu n qrpvfvba pbhyq or whfgvsvrq?
V guvax Ebfyva npgf gbb fbba. Orpnhfr vg jnf cbffvoyr gung Funeba jnf trfgngvat fbzrguvat qrnqyl (vagragvbanyyl gb xvyy hf nyy), gur uhznaf unq gur evtug gb cebgrpg gurzfryirf ol qrgrezvavat jung jnf va Funeba'f jbzo. Ebfyva fubhyq unir jnvgrq sbe gur erfrnepu gb gryy ure jung xvaq bs guerng gur srghf cbfrq. Ohg nf fur jnf snpvat ure vzzvarag qrngu, naq fur xarj ure fhpprffbe jnf zber vagrerfgrq va erfrnepu guna va cebgrpgvat gur uhzna enpr, V haqrefgnaq ure gubhtug cebprff gung ryvzvangvat gur evfx jnf jbegu gur cbgragvny pbfg bs ybfvat n onol vs fur jnf jebat.
Erzrzore, vs fur'f jebat gur bgure jnl (naq pubbfrf gb cebgrpg gur onol jura Funeba vf npghnyyl gelvat gb xvyy rirelobql), gura gur pbfg vf gur ragver uhzna enpr.
It's fun to argue these issues. Thank goodness for a thoughtful show! And I agree that this show is awesome.
You raise good points. An interesting corollary to your thought experiment is the film District 9. There the aliens do look like monsters, and humans do perform "abortions" and other medical experiments on them. But we, the audience, learn to see them as people, regardless of their appearance. So…maybe?
I was just thinking of District 9! That's a really good example of the aliens looking EXTREMELY alien, and yet because they show intelligent thought and consciousness, we do see them as people, worthy of respect.
But in District 9 the aliens are NOT trying to annihilate the humans. I'm not saying we're justified in killing aliens because they look like monsters. I'm saying we may be justified in self-defense, even preemptively, when the aliens have proven themselves monsters by trying to wipe out our entire existence.
I kind of agree with this comment, in that I can see why everyone views the Cylons as sophisticated weapons instead of people. Except that I thought that was the entire point of the Pegasus storyline, to show Cylons in a more human (so to speak) light. But it doesn't seem like our characters have learned anything from that, even Baltar, who was doing so well on the character-development front.
I think the show is doing a great job of showing that the characters are slowly seeing the Cylons as more than just "toasters."
But assuming that Cylons deserve to have their person-hood recognized, where does recognizing their person-hood intersect with reasonable caution when dealing with aliens trying to annihilate your existence? The Cylons have tried at every meeting to destroy us, to kill everybody. EVERYBODY.
Sharon has acted to help us several times. But how can we be sure that's not just a clever ploy? Boomer also helped us, and then she betrayed us. How is it different? More importantly, how can we TELL if its different? The Cylons are so skilled at acting, how can we tell whether (1) Sharon has free will and is using it to help us; (2) Sharon has free will and is playing a long game to eventually destroy us more effectively or control us in some way (sacrificing a few Cylons in the process for the greater good); or (3) does not have free will and is playing out Cylon programming in a long game to eventually destroy us or control us (again, with acceptable Cylon losses)? How do we know? And, given that as viewers we think we know (but may not know), an even better question is how is Roslin supposed to know?
Remember, the Cylons massacred everybody on the planets, and they have been unwilling to accept surrender. So Roslin knows that if either 2 or 3 is correct, then Sharon's goal is to kill EVERYBODY. And if the wrong choice means Sharon kills everybody with her baby-bomb, then is Roslin justified in taking preemptive action?
Again, I just throw that out there.
I wonder if people would complain about Roslin's choice if the Cylons did everything they did here, but they looked more like the monsters from Aliens, and less like really, really, pretty humans.
I think that's a huge part of it – you know the old saying, "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck" and that's how most of us (audience) are inclined to treat the Cylons, and the intended effect of making them humanoid in the first place.
Roslin was hugely, massively wrong, but considering the Fleet's past experience with humanoid Cylons, it's somewhat understandable to be afraid of the unknown. How was she to know (given the blood abnormalities) that, say, the baby wouldn't come out as a perfect bio-bomb, primed to infect the fleet with some deadly biological warfare-ish viruses? There's no excuse for what she does, but fear explains a lot (sadly).
It's not just the fear of the unknown, it's the facts of our VERY recent history with EVERY cylon except Sharon. They kill us. That's what they do. All of them. Sharon has proven to be the only exception we know of so far, but how do we know she's going to continue to ally with us? Boomer was our ally, and then she tried to cripple us by shooting our critical leader (and Space Dad). Sharon could have an equally diabolical plan, and how would we know?
I'm not sure I would call that unthinking fear so much as reasonable caution based on the facts at hand.
All you say is true, I remember comment threads for previous eps where people were like SHARON IS AWESOME WHY ARE THEY SO MEAN and all I could think was, she's also an agent for an enemy who wiped out 99.99999% of their entire race. We see her as a protagonist and feel bad for her, but it'd be utterly and completely absurd for them to trust her straightaway especially after the genocide, Boomer's sleeper-agenting and everything else.
And then there's the fact that until a few short months ago, no one even knew that Cylons could look human. Even an acknowledgment of their being people and not machines is something that I can easily believe a Colonial survivor would find difficult.
Agree completely.
Maybe I missed something, but do the peace movement people know that Six is a cylon? Because it doesn't seem like they do.
And if they don't, did Roslin and Adama not put up Wanted posters or do something to let the fleet know she escaped?
I don't think they know, no. And Roslin definitely had Shelly Godfrey in her Cylon File, but I guess they hadn't released that info to the press.
Baltar asked her if they do, and she said something along the lines of "Of course not; their dedication to the cause has limits," suggesting that if they did know they'd just kill her/turn her in.
It does seem weird that there seemingly aren't Wanted posters or press releases about the known Cylons. As far as I can remember, the only time it's really addressed is at the press conference on Colonial One after the second Doral blew up (I think at that point it was just Doral and Leoben, right?), and I don't think we really get a clear idea about how efficient the press was in disseminating that information through the fleet. I was thinking that D'Anna Biers's recognition of Sharon would point to their being pretty effective in general, but then I remembered that she's a member of the press herself (not to mention a fellow Cylon).
Something I just thought of: Starbuck hasn't told anyone about Simon, right?
I presume Starbuck would have made some sort of report when she got back and included a description of Simon. That said, they could only do so much with just a description. I imagine there might be a police composite artist around, but that'll only go so far.
Anyway, it does make you wonder why Roslin and Adama haven't released pictures of Six. I got not publicizing the "Cylons look like us" thing because of the panic it could cause. But once you know what they look like, it really doesn't make any sense not to publicize it.
Especially when you know one is on the run.
Epiphanies:
Unless the cancer goes to your brain, in which case you will see some fucked up shit.
"Don't talk about me as if I'm not here. There'll be plenty of time for that soon enough." NO DYING LAURA 🙁
NO FORCED ABORTION either. Not cool. Rape is not cool and forced abortion is not cool. STOP BEING NOT COOL.
Helo, YOU know this is not cool. You are the coolest one of them all. TELL THEM TO BE COOL.
DEMAND PEACE… by blowing shit up and endangering people. GRATE JOB.
At some point in this show "Cylon" started being a plural, and I think it was here?
Oh god, Gaius, please don't read the letter. PLEASE.
Pegasus-Six! Nice glasses! Looking a lot better.
Don't touch her, Gaius. This isn't your Six. This is a traumatized, raped, beaten Six. Asshole. And you were SO GOOD at this in the past couple of episodes!
Roslin was having an affair with Adar? Ugh, this seems like such a predictable and boring "twist." Why couldn't she just be a government official arguing with the president and getting shit done? What's the point of the affair being there at all?
The thought of Sharon having her baby forcibly removed is just too horrible for me. God. DON'T YOU GET THAT SHE IS A PERSON YET.
LOL even the Cylon blood is eight-sided.
"Unnatural"? Dude, there's a Cylon carrying a human/Cylon baby. I think we're past concerns of "natural" right now.
I can't even imagine how Sharon must feel, knowing that Roslin, who wanted to abort her baby, is now being saved by it.
OK, so Roslin is now saved by Magical Cybrid Baby Blood, but does this mean she's not the dying leader of the prophecy? Pythia probably didn't take magical Cybrid baby blood into account, though.
I kind of want her to take one look at the Demand Peace guy and go "throw him out the airlock." Because she's PRESIDENT AIRLOCK.
Gaius's "rightful place of leadership"? Come on, Six. Gaius would make an AWFUL PRESIDENT. He is almost entirely self-centered. Pegasus Six is the first time he's really cared about anyone else and he frakked that up by trying to mack on her. Shut up, Six.
DON'T READ THE LETTER. DON'T READ IT. GOD DAMMIT
Pegasus Six, here's a nice present from Gaius. Don't drop it.
—
For those of you wondering why Sharon seems to be WAY more pregnant now than she was a few episodes ago: the wiki has a whole page on this, and it's called the Season Two Timeline Discontinuity. Basically, it doesn't make sense and there's no way to make it make sense. So, thanks, writers.
In short, it appears that the missing 75 days have not merely been glossed over, but were excised entirely. Valerii's pregnancy progresses by 75 days, but Roslin's cancer does not; [upcoming event that also does not fit the timeline]; and while all other references to the timeline have advanced by approximately two and a half months, no actual events during that span have been alluded to.
Obviously they went through some kind of time-warping wormhole that affected some people and not others! Without realizing it!
I think this might be the first episode I actually dislike. I don't like what Laura tries to do to Sharon. I don't like the Laura/Adar affair. I don't like how Gaius treats Pegasus-Six. I find the flashbacks boring. I don't like how Laura suddenly has a Get Out of Death Free card. I don't like how there's suddenly a band of Cylon sympathizer terrorists who want peace but do it by blowing shit up. Sigh.
I don't like that RIGHT AFTER we had these great episodes about how awful it is to take away the consent and bodily autonomy of women, we get an episode about Laura disregarding Sharon's desires regarding her baby and Gaius disregarding Pegasus-Six's desires regarding her body. Didn't anybody learn anything in the past couple of episodes? Especially Gaius, who was showing actual character development in his interactions with Pegasus-Six, but is now the same self-centered asshole he was before.
This episode just seems kind of hastily stitched together, and you can still see the seams. I expect better from this show.
In all the discussion about sci-fi rape and pregnancy, and the show naming it for what it is, esp. with Kara and the farms, or Sharon and the Pegasus officers, I've always thought it odd that no one ever mentions Helo. Especially since most of us seemed to agree on the point that being tricked into sex for procreational purposes did qualify as a pretty heinous compromise of consent.
I mean, think about it: back when he was stranded on Caprica, Sharon basically pretended she was Boomer (who he had feelings for) so she could sex him and get knocked up – all while in full knowledge of the fact that she was a Cylon and was using him to carry out a mission. Helo was fully willing at the time, but under the mistaken assumption that she was Boomer and not a Cylon with an agenda – which theoretically, makes it a bit like he slept with Boomer's twin sister while thinking it was Boomer? ICK.
If it was Boomer who'd done this in her sleeper-agent state, I wouldn't have blamed her, and I think a lot of us are inclined not to look so closely at it because Helo is a man and isn't actually the one pregnant. But if we flipped the genders and Helo was a girl who got knocked up by a (male) Cylon whom girl-Helo thought was [girl-Helo's] male co-pilot on whom [girl-Helo] had a huge crush, and who suddenly seemed to reciprocate it…..without knowing that co-pilot in question was a Cylon……what would we think? Hell, what do we think of the actual Helo's role in this? (though he's pretty delighted about being a dad, the poor sod – I feel really bad for what they're trying to do here)