In the sixth episode of the sixth series of Doctor Who, everyone is forced to deal with the oncoming war with the Gangers, but a set of unbelievable twists makes this all a lot more complicated for anyone to deal with. Intrigued? Then itâ€™s time for Mark to watch Doctor Who.
At best, I am entertained, and that is something I can say with certainty about â€œThe Almost Peopleâ€ and the sixth series of Doctor Who. I have not had this much fun trying to â€œfigure outâ€ a show since I was deep within the LOST fandom, and it became a weekly thing to spend hours on the Internet reading some RIDICULOUS theories about that show. (Does anyone remember that spectacular, but ultimately COMPLETELY BOGUS theory about two worlds/two moons/moon matter/duality that was being passed around? My god, that was so fun to read but that dude was not even remotely close to being right.)
So, I want to say that first. I love Doctor Who. I am massively entertained by series six, including â€œCurse of the Black Spot,â€ which was at least a fun little side journey. (Thoughâ€¦.shit, this particular episode may have just made that one absolutely necessary, too.) Emotionally, Iâ€™m fascinated by where our characters are at this moment, and the ridiculous difficult decisions they have facing them at the end of â€œThe Almost People.â€ For once, I donâ€™t think there is going to be a simple, joyous, victorious solution to the problems set forth, and while that terrifies me, it also brings a bit of excitement to my heart. I crave this sort of thing because itâ€™s fairly rare these days, and I honestly believe what weâ€™re about to see in the coming week is going to make us all explode.
There we go. So. Yes. Now. Shall we?
WHAT THE HOLY FUCKING SHIT JUST HAPPENED. whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
This is justâ€¦.how do you coherently talk about an episode that reveals UTTER INCOHERENCY. The problem I am having with this review (which was completely deleted and now Iâ€™m on my second draft because my first review was just seriously awful) is that I simply do not understand what I just witnessed, and as I try to account for the ridiculous number of details dropped into my lap, it makes even less sense.
In that sense, I am ok with the fact that there are probably a ton of you who may not necessarily like where this has headed, or may not enjoy this sensation of being so confused that you canâ€™t enjoy what just happened. I think I share some of that sentiment, too. Part of my frustration comes from the fact that I do not have all of the pieces and my brain is operating on a NEED TO KNOW basis right now.
So hereâ€™s what Iâ€™d like to do, and Iâ€™m hoping it will benefit all of us if we can do this as a community: Iâ€™d like to talk about some of the finer and not-so-finer points of this episode, but do so in a way that allows us to sort through the pieces of â€œThe Almost People,â€ and how that relates to the rest of the season. I think a lot of us have so many questions jumping around in our brains and it might help us to just work through them and dissect what information weâ€™ve been given.
As usual, if you are going to propose a theory about this episode, please begin your comment with THEORIES ABOUND in bold to warn those in this community who want to read comments, but prefer to avoid theorizing. And please make sure to do this if you have a normal comment and a theory at the end, as a few people forgot to in the past and itâ€™s kind of rude.
Anyway, onwards I go!
THE ALMOST PEOPLE
What attracted me so much to â€œThe Rebel Fleshâ€ and helped save it from being too repetitious was the fact that there was this complicated sense of ethics attached to the situation. The Doctor and Rory were both very adamant about the fact that it seemed incredibly immoral to treat the Gangers as non-human, and that killing them was most certainly a bad thing to do. Here in â€œThe Almost People,â€ that ethical sense is split neatly in two. Both Doctors operate to convince the Originals that killing the Gangers is a terrible thing to do, and the Ganger Doctor convinces the Gangers that wiping out the Originals as an act of revenge is also a horrific idea. In these moments, the episode beautifully lives up to the mantra set forth in the first half, and I was immensely satisfied by the humanization of the characters on either camp. This is a common act on Doctor Who and weâ€™ve seen this before in â€œThe Hungry Earthâ€/â€Cold Bloodâ€ most recently: the Doctor believes that war can be made inevitable if the two parties simply work together. And, like that two-parter, one selfish character ruins that in a way for everyone.
Even with Ganger Jimmy, this idea of peace and acceptance continues, as Original Jimmy blesses his Ganger with the responsibility of taking care of his (their???) son, and the Doctor helps facilitate this, both through the birthday hologram message and dropping Ganger Jimmy off to be reunited with Billy. (Oh god, thereâ€™s something else we need to discuss regarding that scene in particular, too.)
And yet, thereâ€™s a dichotomy to this moral fabric. We now know that the Doctor specifically went to that island to study the Flesh â€œin its early stagesâ€ because he knew that Amy was actually a Ganger. (Which we will keysmash about in a bit.) And for all the prosthelytizing the Doctors do in this episode, I was quite shocked that he simply zaps Ganger Amy back into pure Flesh. That suggests one of two things to me:
- The Doctor chose to disobey his own moral code for some important reason.
- We are missing a second part to this, because Amy was not the same type of being as the Gangers with her own sense of self. Maybe she was more like a clone??? I DONâ€™T KNOW.
So weâ€™re either dealing with an error in moral continuity (TOTALLY MADE THAT UP RIGHT NOW) or weâ€™re getting a hint. Hmmm.
The scene where Amy tells Ganger Doctor (or who she thinks is Ganger Doctor) that she witnessed him die was one of the most tense bits of all of â€œThe Almost People,â€ and despite that it will probably pan out as an awful decision, I kind of understand why Amy decided to do this. To her, it was an opportunity to release a terrible weight from her heart. In her mind, these were not the same Doctor, and she assumed that this Ganger Doctor would be gone soon anyway.
During the reveal at the end, when we learned that the Ganger Doctor and the real Doctor had switched places, it suddenly dawned on me what Amy had done, and that was confirmed when Ganger Doctor stated that he was about to die, and the Doctor made a reference to not being invited to it.
Oh god. oh god. So what is this going to do? Didnâ€™t River Song say that the Doctor could not know his own future? How is that going to effect the Doctor now? Christ, the possibilities for what this could do are impossible for me guess.
THE DOCTORâ€™S EXPERIMENT
I suppose this ties in with my first section, but Iâ€™d like to talk a little bit more about the Doctorâ€™s intentional plan to come investigate the Flesh and then switching places with Ganger Doctor.
I rewatched bits of â€œThe Rebel Fleshâ€ when the Doctor first arrives at the island, and many of us picked up on the fact that the Doctor seemed to know way more about the Flesh than he was letting on. This is still slightly confusing to me, as Iâ€™m unsure why he knew so much and how he knew this was the place to go. (The TARDIS knew?) Regardless, I believe the Doctor intentionally placed his hand on the Flesh to create a Ganger of himself, and set in motion the events of this two-parter. The question still remains: Why? Part of this is explained towards the end. We know that this was a way to demonstrate to Cleaves that the Gangers and the Originals could get along brilliantly. But why use â€œAmyâ€™s eyesâ€ in order to demonstrate this?
I think this might be related to the Doctorâ€™s desire to see the Flesh in itâ€™s â€œearly stages,â€ but that also makes little sense to me. Since Amy is a Ganger, and she has been for quite some time, why did she not ever reveal that she was one in the past five episodes? Is she a â€œlater stageâ€ of the Flesh?
THE DOCTORâ€™S OMNISCIENCE
Ok, I expect the Doctor to be far ahead of everyone else in the room. Thatâ€™s just how his brain works, and itâ€™s always been fun to see him three steps ahead of his enemies, revealing his master plan just at the right time. Thatâ€™s what makes him such a fun hero, because even the most impossible situation can be figured out with an imaginative brain.
That being said…I cannot be the only one who felt that the Doctor knew way too much about the â€œfutureâ€ in this two-parter. He predicted the phone call/hologram for Billy, he kept telling Amy to breathe and â€œonly push when she says to,â€ and HOW THE FUCK DID HE KNOW THAT GANGER JIMMY WOULD BRING HIS SON A RED BALLOON. I honestly do not have even the most remotely coherent theory for this; I thought that the Ganger Doctor would end up being the Doctor we saw perish in â€œThe Impossible Astronaut,â€ but the Ganger Doctor melts himself at the end of the episode.
I donâ€™t get it. WHAT IS HAPPENING.
AMYâ€™S TRUE NATURE
Goddamn it. I never see these things!!! It is now SO PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that Amy was a Ganger, but I did not figure it out until the scene in the TARDIS at the end. And really, of every reveal we witnessed in â€œThe Almost People,â€ this has to be the most mind-melting one.
If Amy has been a Ganger for a long time, when was she kidnapped? We now know that Eyepatch Lady is indeed the woman taking care of her, but…oh my go, WHAT THE FUCK. It appears that Amyâ€™s Ganger was linked in a way none of the other Gangers were, suggesting that they are not simply two copies of the same person. Does Amy share instantaneous memories with her Ganger? Is that the â€œsignalâ€ the Doctor references at the end, right before he melts her?
Weâ€™ve obviously been getting hints towards this. It explains the TARDISâ€™s inability to determine if Amy was pregnant or not and it explains the times that Amy doubles over in pain and discomfort. (Whichâ€¦.didnâ€™t River Song experience the exact same sensation in â€œThe Impossible Astronautâ€ when she encountered The Silence?) And yet…I canâ€™t claim to understand it all.
I liked â€œThe Almost Peopleâ€ in one sense, as it was entertaining and challenging at the same time, but, like â€œThe Rebel Flesh,â€ itâ€™s just a piece of the puzzle. It honestly feels quite incomplete, and in that sense, itâ€™s not ultimately satisfying. I kind of feel like it cannot stand on its own because it is so intrinsically tied to the series arc.
Basically, all of us are so unprepared for next week.
- omg. How rad was the scene when the Ganger Doctor copes with his other regenerations and we hear Tom Baker and David Tennant and a quote from the First Doctor????? OMG I LOVE REFERENTIAL SHIT LIKE THIS.
- I think out of everyone, I feel the worst for Rory, who knew what it felt like to be a non-human human when he was an Auton for 2,000 years. He tried so hard to be a good person and trust Jennifer, believing he was doing right, only to be betrayed in the end. Sometimes, I feel like Rory is the most adorable puppy dog in the world and the writers just keep kicking him because they are evil people 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁
- WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WITH ALL OF THE SCREWDRIVERS.
- Few things are more entertaining than two Doctors who finish each other sentences and are enamored with hearing their own voice.
- â€œDo we tend to say â€˜Yowsaâ€™?â€ â€œThatâ€™s enough, let it go. Okay? Weâ€™re under stress.â€
- â€œAnd itâ€™s apparent we both wear the same bow-tie, which is cool.â€ â€œBecause bow-ties areâ€¦â€ â€œ…and always will be.â€
- GANGER JENNIFER MONSTER WAS FUCKING HORRIFYING. Oh man, that was a spectacular CGI effect. Just make her look creepy as shit. A++++.
- â€œIf you have a better plan, Iâ€™m all ears. In fact, if you have a better plan, Iâ€™ll take you to a planet where everyone is all ears.â€
Sorry, gotta do this in reverse order because once again Steven Moffat has pulled an absolute blinder. Don’t think I saw ANYONE get the Pregnant Amy thing right and having a duplicate travelling with the Doctor was a beautiful move, doubly so as the idea behind it meant that everything we saw that Amy do can be considered exactly what the real one would have done as she’s effectively remote controlling the body without realising it (or, if you go with the other possibility, that Gamy basically IS Amy up to the point the ganger was created but I currently go with the first version). Better still we have NO idea at what point she was taken so that’ll be an interesting reveal – can’t be any later than Day of the Moon and even that seems late as she saw Eye-Patch Lady before being kidnapped. At home after the Doctor dropped her and Rory off? In the Pandorica? Earlier? It’s also a horrific idea, the thought that someone we know could be imitated so perfectly we wouldn’t know they’d been replaced even when being, um, intimate with them…bravo Moff, bravo.
But way more horrific than that, by a country mile, is what is coming for Eye-patch Lady and anyone near her. Dear GOD are they insane?!!!? You kidnap a companion, use her to carry a child for you, replace her with a duplicate and generally be Not Nice and you can expect the Doctor to be a tad ticked off at the best of times but this is Eleven! The last time someone took Amy he ordered the human race to kill every last member of the species on sight! Before that the Angels tried to frak with her and he fed them to a time crack while punning! The only thing that would top this for sheer suicidal tendencies would be doing the same thing to Ace and waiting for Seven to catch up with you! Eleven has always struck me as a Doctor really at the top of his game in a lot of ways, Nine was suffering massive survivor guilt, Ten often felt like he had a death wish (not to mention SERIOUS impulse control problems and a messiah complex), Eleven is the first time we’ve really seen the Doctor something like at peace with himself after the time war AND fully in control of the Lonely God within, messing with THIS Doctor just isn’t a good idea.
Anyway, The Rebel Flesh / Almost People was a pretty damn good story even without the last few minutes. Where the Silurian episode last year felt like a Pertwee story this felt more like Troughton and it really did work. Very very creepy, some very interesting twists and moral issues raised and a great little story to keep everything moving. Wales, as always, seemed to rise to the shooting challenge brilliantly providing a wide and varied set of castles for rooms, exteriors and, of course, corridors and the whole thing looked stunning. The Ganger idea was very effective and came FAR closer to The Thing than I thought a Saturday Evening Family Show(tm) ever would. Some genuine moral shocks too, the discarded Ganger pile being the standout, and the first part in particular genuinely creeped me out for the first time in years. Nice character work for both Amy and Rory but, in retrospect, this is The Doctor’s story and good LORD does it deliver.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Eleven is really reminding me of Seven this series and that’s a very very good thing. Here we have a Doctor who can improvise as well as ever but who has at least heard of long term planning and who isn’t above keeping secrets and hurting his companions (mentally at least) to achieve a greater good. It makes him such an interesting take on the character and Matt Smith was just the perfect choice knocking it out of the park time and time again. That said Arthur and Karen were only a half step behind packing a lot into their screen time and thankfully both companions are allowed to be less than perfect here, always nice to see. We’re so bloody lucky that Team TARDIS are all such good actors, so much is going on here that’s non-verbal and lesser talent wouldn’t have given us that. Rory getting duped by Ganger!Jen was a bit sudden and may be the first appearance of the Idiot Ball this series but it’s a very minor note and, frankly, she was working to keep him from thinking about the plan and keeping certain key details from him so just this once we’ll let him off. Also puts him in a GREAT mental state for next week… Talking of which I cannot wait to see Amy’s reaction to all this, sod the Doctor, EyePatch lady should be worried about what might happen when Amy gets loose, they’d better hope they’ve hidden the cricket bats.
Downsides? Yeah, a few. The script was a bit oddly paced in places but we’ve also clearly not seen everything we need to yet (the Doctor muttering about stuff that hasn’t happened yet is surely going to be linked to future episodes) so a revist will be required there. The deaths were a bit obvious too and the CGI work maybe wasn’t as good as it could have been in places (but there are limits to what Who can do on its budget so the heck with it). And if Ganger!Doctor doesn’t turn up again I’ll be very surprised. Think there might have been a screwdriver cock up in there too with it being used by the Doctor that didn’t have it but might be wrong there, need to recheck.
Eleven has always struck me as a Doctor really at the top of his game in a lot of ways, Nine was suffering massive survivor guilt, Ten often felt like he had a death wish (not to mention SERIOUS impulse control problems and a messiah complex), Eleven is the first time we’ve really seen the Doctor something like at peace with himself after the time war AND fully in control of the Lonely God within, messing with THIS Doctor just isn’t a good idea.
THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
(And the rest of your review, too, of course 😀 )
Indeed – AND I CAN'T WAIT.
Angry!Eleven is terrifying, but there is something very catharticabout seeing him pointed at a deserving target, and what the Silence or whoever have done is Amy is truly horrific. (BODY HORROR TRAUMA: ACTIVATE!)
Go Doctor, go!
…Although. It would be even more cathartic to see Amy get the ultimate say in whatever revenge they mete out.
i thought amy was replaced by silents. in first episodes. there was something about three months her being there if i recall correctly.
Don’t think I saw ANYONE get the Pregnant Amy thing right
Actually, someone posited the theory in the comments to the 'Rebel Flesh' review; might have been the liveblog. They were like "wait I bet Amy is Flesh and her real body is pregnant somewhere, that would explain the not/pregnant thing." As soon as I read it, the theory made a lot of sense, so that reveal didn't shock me.
Overall though very solid story with much wider implications and one HELL of an episode to come next week. Track down the prequel (note, not trailer) to the next episode if you can to see a couple of nice jokes, some good setup and a familiar face being VERY Genre savvy. An angry Doctor and Rory, Amy in a very awkward position, one suspects a lot of setup being resolved and Moffat writing? This could set new levels of awesome in the Whoniverse…
"I was quite shocked that he simply zaps Ganger Amy back into pure Flesh. That suggests one of two things to me:
The Doctor chose to disobey his own moral code for some important reason.
We are missing a second part to this, because Amy was not the same type of being as the Gangers with her own sense of self. Maybe she was more like a clone??? I DON’T KNOW."
There's a very simple answer to that, Ganger Amy wasn't alive. She was working the way the Gangers were INTENDED to work, i.e. as remote controlled drones. That's why she got occasional glimpses of Eye Patch Lady and knew she was pregnant, still linked to the real Amy who was controlling her (albeit the real Amy didn't KNOW she was controlling her and wouldn't if she had no memory of being put in the more up to date version of the harness the humans were using here). Also explains why the Doctor told Ganger Amy they were coming for her, he knew she was linked to the real Amy.
Coincidentally that's also the reason Ganger Amy didn't act out of character, she WAS the real Amy as far as she was concerned, not a double agent or anything else. Granted there's nothing to say that link couldn't be monitored and used to spy on the Doctor which is probably another reason he got rid of the Ganger.
" It is now SO PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that Amy was a Ganger," – See now that I disagree with, I don't think there's anything there that we, the audience, missed indicating this wasn't our Amy. Yes it explains the weirdness very well but up until that last scene in the TARDIS there wasn't a hint that the audience could pick up on. That's kinda, to my eyes anyway, the point: this WAS Amy, perfect in every way and as she was being remote controlled by the real Amy she acted just as she would have done anyway. The only real difference is Amy's physical body has been locked away for months bringing… something to term.
Yeah, Ganger Amy was like the Gangers we see at the very beginning of the Rebel Flesh, before the solar storm hits.* Original is unconscious in their own body, but conscious in the Ganger's body– Ganger is destroyed, Original wakes up.
If the Doctor hadn't destroyed Ganger Amy, Amy's conscious self could have returned to her Original body. That transfer is shown as she wakes up in the pregnancy… tank?
*The big deal about the storm was that its energy split Original from Ganger, so that both of them had fully functional, completely identical conscious minds, and autonomy.
Sorry, Amy's conscious self COULDN'T have returned…
Actually, Ganger!Amy wasn't like the gangers at the start of the episode. From how I saw the episode, those gangers had a borrowed copy of the original person's consciousness that got copied back into the original mind after the ganger was killed. Which was why they were actually separate people with their own consciousnesses and minds while they were alive. All the storm did was make it so that both the ganger and the original could be active and walk around at the same time.
Amy's ganger was a later technology that didn't ever have its own consciousness – it was like a brain controlled puppet.
I dont know if you are a computery person, but I think of them as fat and thin clients – the old tech gangers had their own memory and CPU, the later tech didn't.
yeah; the gangers in the episode, who were like real people, had become that way because of the solar storm. so when the doctor blew up flesh!amy, he severed the link and made real!amy wake up, whereas the storm!gangers functioned independently of the people they were created from. ganger!amy didn't.
The major hint was that she's been wearing the same shirt (or two shirts which look very similar) for the last four episodes…
I had occasion to rewatch The Impossible Astronaut and Day of the Moon last night with this reveal in mind (and watching for the red plaid shirt) and I'm even more confused now than when I started.
The scenes that I noticed…
BLUE plaid shirt – At home when watching TV with Rory and the envelope arrives.
Red plaid shirt – Meeting the Doctor in the desert
Red plaid shirt – Doctor's death picnic, first appearance of Silent
Red plaid shirt – At the diner where the Doctor shows up
Red plaid shirt – In the Tardis, "swear on something important" scene etc.
Red plaid shirt – Oval Office
Red plaid shirt – White House bathroom with the Silent
Didn't notice (damn me!) – At the warehouse when she shoots the astronaut
Red plaid shirt – 3 months later getting chased through the desert by Canton
Red plaid shirt – coming out of the body bag
Didn't notice (damn me!) – In the Tardis explaining the Silent to Canton
BLACK button down shirt (!!!) – Entering the creepy orphanage
Black button down shirt – in the room with a gazillion silent on the ceiling
Black button down shirt – in the hallway where Eyepatch Lady first shows up
Black button down shirt – in the room noticing herself in the picture right before she's taken
Black button down shirt – when she's rescued by the Doctor, Rory and River from the Silent-tardis-thingy
Black button down shirt – afterwards in the Tardis for the 'time head' conversation
Didn't notice (damn me!) – when the Doctor is scanning her for pregnancy
So… WTF! I thought I had it figured out that Flesh-Amy was wearing the red shirt, but eyepatch lady appeared in the hallway so that was definitely Flesh-Amy and she was definitely NOT wearing the red shirt then.
Can anyone fill in the gaps of the scenes I missed?
and how does it all relate to doctors bow tie?
beside it being cool, it also changes colour.
it was red in the fifth season, became blue somewhere in the first episode of season six.
someone mentioned back then that red is now!doctor and the blue is future!doctor. or the other way around 😀
Wasn't it blue in a couple episodes of season 5? I'll check.
Yeah, Vampires of Venice, Amy's Choice (Leadworth dream), Vincent and the Doctor, and The Lodger were all blue-bowtie/shirt episodes.
I thought it was blue for historical/present day earth storylines, and red for future/space ones.
That's totally what I took from it, that Amy was present through her ganger/avater all the time and that this was simply a way for her to experience the world but that it never had a seperate conciousness. (It's impressive that the link between Amy and the ganger could be maintained through space and time and even on house!)
Maybe the result of the happenings on the island were that the humans made VERY sure that the gangers were simply avatars without a seperate conciousness. (How and when exactly the gangers on the island gained even partial awareness is not completely clear, but I did get the impression that the humans in the racks were aware of and controlling the gangers actions and that earlier versions (seen in the heap) were simply left with some residual awareness AFTER the humans left the remote controlling platforms. The question of the awareness of the flesh itself remains.)
Of course the timeline could also be completely changed.
THEORIES ABOUND? JUST TO BE SAFE?
Since Amy is a Ganger, and she has been for quite some time, why did she not ever reveal that she was one in the past five episodes? Is she a “later stage” of the Flesh?
Probably, but there was also a telling piece of dialogue near the end when the Doctor said that the TARDIS energy "stabilized" the gangers. Which would explain why Amy never ganged out before.
Also why would she reveal herself? That would probably make the Doctor ask annoying questions like "WTF where the hell is Amy you assholes?" and would mess up the plans of whoever made ganger Amy.
I meant in an uncontrolled way. All of the other Gangers couldn't control "revealing" themselves, but I forgot about the TARDIS stabilization line at the end.
The Doctor made mention of wanting to see The Flesh at its EARLY stages, and I do think that when he went there, he only meant to scan it. So the gangers being autonomous clones (that melted) was an anomaly, although it was revealed that the gangers were sentient after being "de-commissioned," but I don't think they carried the personalities of the original gangers.
So I'm assuming that the Amy ganger was created after The Flesh had a LOT more time to develop and for the technology to be improved, which is why she never "ganged out" (hilarious phrase, btw). Also, Ganger Amy was able to bleed in and was shown sleeping in Curse of the Black Spot, and it's a natural assumption that she and Rory would have continued to be intimate with each other, at least after they got rid of the bunk beds. And I'm pretty sure Amy had no freaking clue she was a Ganger until seconds before she was melted.
I for one really enjoyed this episode, and not just because of the frankly MIND BLOWING last 5 minutes. The whole thing felt really different to other "second part" episodes and gave each character much needed equal screen time. In short I just love how EVERYONE in this two parter was IMPORTANT, gangers included.
One thing I picked up on though was the conversation between the Doctor and his ganger after the opening credits:
Other Doctor: "Do we have time for this?"
Doctor: "We make time. I'd like more proof that you're me. Cybermats."
Other Doctor: "Created by the Cybermen. They kill by feeding off brainwaves."
Knowing Moffat, I think this is almost definitely significant.
Ok so as usual, here's my highlights in .gif form. And yes, I went a bit crazy with the last few minutes but WHO DIDN'T?!
Now as mind blowing as this was, Naomi did predict it correctly. I wanted to agree but couldn't face the idea that Amy was not there for these first 6 episodes. So imagine my relief when flesh Amy was destroyed and we see Amy "waking-up". I AM ETERNALLY GRATEFUL FOR THE PSYCHIC LINK (The Doctor's Wife was too beautiful to be forgotten).
Ok, no spoilers, but seriously. HOW AM I MEANT TO COPE UNTIL SATURDAY?!?!?! I don't even want to think about the split afterwards that is sure to have me weeping into my pillow/computer screen until SEPTEMBER if IMDb is correct :'(((((
P.S. I have found religion, MOFFATISM.
I have found religion, MOFFATISM.
I am interested in your religion and wish to join. Where do I sign up?
Behind the sofa.
I'm fairly certain that that is the main place of worship. You don't really "sign up" for a religion.
P.S. I have found religion, MOFFATISM.
Is it possible to convert from Whedonism to this new new order? Because I am seriously considering doing just that.
I personally associate myself with the Church of WheMo. The best of both (terrifying, depressing, problematic, yet undeniably awesome) worlds!
yes please! (I'm always happy to find that the Whedon and Moffat fanbases crossover so often, too! 😀 )
I believe the first lesson of MOFFATISM is that you will not understand what is going on… but it will be awesome.
I agree with you last point, the hiatus is the worst idea ever. They try to spin it as "oh you'll never have to wait more than 6 months for new who. To which I reply "Yeah but each chunk of Who is half the size of the old chunks so it works out the same" Also you know Moffat is going to blow our minds and leave us with an amazing cliffhanger then go "BYE GUYS" and then in the ten seconds after the show ends you'll have that sensation of just how long seconds feel when you need to know something.
I'm hoping they'll use the breaks to skew whole series over to the autumn. Who just should not be viewed in broad daylight! It's just wrong. So while it would be a horrible wait, I'd be happy if it pushed it back to September October time for future series.
Hey, it can't be worse than the Sherlock cliffhanger. That one was just EVIL.
Don't say that! He'll find a way to make it a million trillion times worse now!
I'm afraid I can't forsake Iroh, God of Tea and Trolling. Or Toph, Goddess of BAMF.
We can have a whole pantheon, though, can't we?
Moffat, the god of Nightmares and Mindfuck
Iroh, the god of Tea and Trolling
Toph, the goddess of BAMF
The Doctor, the god of Bowties and Things That Are Cool
Any other suggestions? 😛
Amy, Goddess of Short Skirts and Sass.
Rory, God of being a goddamned Saint in the face of Extreme Pressure?
(His High Priest is John Watson.)
Aang, Patron Saint of Vegetarianism?
Sokka, God of Sarcasm and Boomerangs.
Zuko, God of Misplaced Honor.
Katara, Goddess of Worry and Nagging.
I TOLD YOU SO. 😀
Part of me was glad to see she was shocked when she 'woke up' pregnant.
but it makes me think.
If she was surprised, had she been asleep/unaware the whole time she'd been there?
If so, why did eye patch woman not question the fact she was suddenly conscious?
I assume that Amy's councious experiencing happened entirely through the ganger (who had no conciousness, that was all Amy) and that her awareness of the capsule she was in only existed when the window opened, which was integrated into whereever she was in her avatar. As she could always see the women through the window and always reacted to her, the women might not have noticed anything wrong yet. on the other hand, they might have been monitoring the gangaer/Amy's link to it and already know it's been destroyed. (I'm amazed though, that the link could be maintained outside the universe on house.)
I also assumed she was seeing everything through the ganger, but I didn't think about her ganger reaction being shown in the face of the real Amy.
I need Saturday now.
omg. How rad was the scene when the Ganger Doctor copes with his other regenerations and we hear Tom Baker and David Tennant and a quote from the First Doctor????? OMG I LOVE REFERENTIAL SHIT LIKE THIS.
And the Third Doctor, too, with "Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow"! 😀
Although, "Reverse the jelly baby of the neutron flow" is THE BEST CATCHPHRASE EVER, Y/Y/Y???
I love when this show references itself. I don't think it does that nearly enough. I glee'd the fuck out when I heard Tom Baker's voice coming out of Matt's mouth.
I have to say that this is the first episode of Doctor Who that made me feel stupid. I have been impressed, surprised, and even proved wrong but this time I just feel foolish.
I remember during the second episode thinking that they rescued Amy from the Silence too easily (though she first saw eyepatch lady before she was captured so I am still trying to figure that one out). Then Rory was able to listen to her pregnency conversation with the Doctor and I decided it must be the real Amy, that they were just limited by time constraints. Even when everybody was guessing this outcome last week I still dismissed it. Btw Kudos everyone.
Now to regain some personal dignity. I suppose this counts as THEORYS ABOUND.
I feel like this arc shows, intentionally or not, that the Doctor felt some guilt for what he had to do to Martha's clone/ganger way back when. I can't really think of what else would have triggered his need to see the early days of the flesh before he decided to destroy Ganger!Amy. This arc does seem to be, if not a origin story than at least a prelude to the evolution of the Sontarins.
Also I just want to add that I loved the switching shoes bit. That part I did guess and, since I didnt realize Amy was fake, I thought at the time it was just to teach her a lesson and mess with her. Its real purpose was so much more impressive and a bit sad for me.
THEORIES (well fanwank) ABOUND!!!
Just a thought on the Silence… they had her in a proto-TARDIS right? And it didn't half look like they were getting ready to do something? So what if they knew that she wasn't real, that Real!Amy was off somewhere "bringing the silence" into being but that the Doctor didn't know either of those facts? Take her away in their proto-TARDIS, loose it in Time and Space and the Doctor will either chase it for a hell of a long time or assume she's dead. Either way they'd buy enough time to be sure she'd deliver.
Oh and about the need to see the Flesh, wasn't that to let him figure out how to trace the signal between Ganger and Original so that he could sever the link? And, one assumes, track it back to its source…. which would be very very bad news for anyone AT that source.
That is more or less what I meant. She was just sitting their tied up, ready to be rescued. Though if they had planned to spirit her away for a wild goose chase they need to plan better. I really think they just wanted the Doctor to rescue Ganger!Amy so he wouldnt keep searching.
Heh, maybe Steve came up with the plan, that guy just ain't smart 😉
The Sontarans existed well before this time period, and unless they have advanced time travel tech and I don't believe they do. They've been in a war with the Rutons (sp) for how long? Ten thousand years or something like that? I don't think the flesh are part of Sontaran evolution (this took place in the 22nd century)
I missed the similarity to Martha's clone– different tech, as the clone was the one thinking, using Martha's memories as she was in effect comatose. They were two very distinct personalities. This ep seemed to underscore how the gangers were the same people as the originals- MarthaClone was not Martha. But when he freed Martha, the death of the clone was sealed. So this must bring on some flashbacks for him. HOWEVER- big difference here- he did not directly kill the clone- he just freed Martha and the consequence was the clone death. He destroyed Amy's ganger- SPLAT. Just like a man with a gun.
I can't say I know the Sontarans history. The only episodes I have seen have all been New Who and they only showed up in 3 episodes or so.
But if the Flesh in these episodes has nothing to do with the Sontaran Flesh than why would they throw in all the similarities. The suits looked Sontarin, the unstabalized Gangers looked Sontaranesque, they both have the Flesh, and Ganger!Jennifer, despite the gentle qualities of her original, was very eager to go to war. I am open to being proved wrong but I hope they at least explain these for me.
Also the free thinking clone of Martha's matches the seperated Gangers of the workers, while Amy's ganger matches the way they were used before the storm.
I remember thinking that the silhouette of them in the suits looked Sontaran! And I totally forgot about the Martha Clone… that seems so long ago now o.o
But anyway, with the Gangers, do they know they're Gangers insitinctively? Or do they wake up being the Ganer and then the person controlling them thinks 'well I just hooked up to the machine, obviously I must be a ganger now since I've moved into the vat thing.' They did seem aware of it, even before the storm.
Assuming that is how it works, then a possible explanation that Amy's Ganger was made when she was unconscious, thus when she woke up she couldn't tell the difference OR something to do with the silents ordering her not to remember.
Honestly, aside from the necessary explanation of Gangers and the last five minutes and Roricus Moranicus being awesome I didn't love the episodes.
Also: Matt Smith absolutely outdone himself in this two-parter, and if he doesn't win a BAFTA next year, there is no justice in this world. Phenomenal acting.
This! I totally was rooting for him this year but next year for sure, he's just been consistently stunning this whole series so far.
THIS THIS THIS! He was incredible in this episode. He's been incredible all series actually.
This is absolutely his strongest performance to date. He was BRILLIANT. I also find Matt does quiet doc, scary doc, and angry doc incredibly well. I prefer them to his wacky doc (though he's fine there- it's just the depth of the doctor shows through when he's given some really meaty stuff). This ep had a bit of everything- he did it all.
And I was not a big KG fan last season, but WOW- she was brilliant in this ep as well.
Karen's acting VISIBLY improved since Series 5, that's true.
I hope nobody minds me reposting this, I originally typed it up for the liveblog and I want to post it again because I THINK it might explain a lot about this episode. So THEORIES ABOUND.
LOTS OF THEORIES ABOUND
Myself and the boyfriend just rewatched the Almost People and we have (well, he did really) just come up with an awesome holy-shit theory that I will share with you now.
So, my theory about duality and the alternate universe has been pretty much shot to hell and I'm coming to terms with this tremendous loss. However, boyfriend has suggested that it's not 'two' that's the issue (two Doctors, two Amys etc).
Ganger Doctor and Real Doctor swap shoes. They decide that Real Doctor (pretending to be Ganger Doctor but I'll just refer to them as who they actually are for simplicity) should go with Marshall Lancaster (Buzzer?) to look for Jennifer. Ganger Doctor throws a sonic screwdriver to Real Doctor and Real Doctor goes off, gets knocked out and then joins the rest of the Gangers, still carrying his screwdriver. That’s One.
Later, we see Ganger Doctor locked in the acidy-room with Amy and etc. He pulls out a sonic screwdriver and uses it, I think, on the acid. That’s two.
Finally, at the end, Ganger Doctor is by the door with Ganger Cleaves, holding back Scary-Ass Jennifer. The swap is revealed and Real Doctor throws his sonic screwdriver across to Ganger Doctor, who then dies (apparently).
Assuming that a replica sonic-screwdriver was created with the Ganger (along with clothes and etc), when the shoe-swapping occurred, both screwdrivers might have been held with Ganger Doctor, so that he could create the illusion of being the real one by throwing a screwdriver to the Real Doctor (whilst still keeping one for himself.) Still with me? Sorry, this sounds like a total mess.
So this would account for two screwdrivers and two Doctors. It would also mean that both screwdrivers should finally have ended up with the Ganger Doctor. Except, we all get back on the Tardis, Amy starts trying to birth Schrodinger’s baby and the Real Doctor melts her… with a screwdriver. That’s THREE.
As far as I can see, there are three (how apt!) explanations:
1)The boyfriend and I have been addled with hangover and we’ve managed to miss yet another screwdriver swap that explains this all away. There was only ever two, or even one, and we’ve just confused ourselves.
2)We’ve read the episode correctly and the continuity is just fucking appalling.
3)There are three doctors. One Doctor who came out of the bathroom in Utah; one Ganger Doctor created in this episode; and a third who is either another Ganger or something else entirely. The third, presumably, is the one who dies in Utah.
Other evidence that makes three likely includes the fact that the Doctor keeps knowing things before they happen. The phone ringing, the contractions, Amy being a Ganger… If there are in fact three, I have no idea who is who at any given time and that’s far too confusing for me to nail down. Safe to say that one of them is the one who is much older than the others and therefore knows exactly what’s going to happen because he’s already lived it. And of course, each one had their own screwdriver.
Our reckoning is that the Doctor who melts Amy is the Third Doctor. He has this strange detachment that reminds me of the Impossible Astronaut Death Doctor. And he brings out a red balloon, already blown up for Jimmy to give to Adam – how could he have known to do that unless he was an older Doctor?
And finally, in a lovely touch that makes me want this to be true so badly… The Doctor presumably gives the red balloon to Jimmy to give to Adam. But when they are reunited, Jimmy gives Adam TWO balloons and right before that moment, there’s a quick flash of a THIRD balloon skimming out across the sea. Boyfriend and I have decided that this is a CLUE to there being three Doctors.
What say you, Mark Watches?
Also, I'd add (MORE THEORIES ABOUND) that there being three Doctors interacting in this episode might explain the ambiguity of the Doctor destroying Ganger Amy.
If it is indeed the Future Doctor (on his travels before getting killed in Utah) it's understandable that he might view killing Amy differently. Perhaps he's bitter and twisted, perhaps he's an unbalanced clone or Ganger, perhaps he's just learnt more about the Gangers. Either way, should there have been a switcharoo at some point, he might not be the same Doctor who tried so hard to teach everyone about the Ganger's humanity.
I'm totally getting carried away with this aren't I?
I approved of this theory before and I continue to approve of it now! I'm not sure if it's true or not, but it is an excellent theory nonetheless and I applaud you!
<img src="http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/hanelissar/Gifs/amyandthedoctorapplaudyou.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket">
BEST THEORY EVER. I love all of the clues and I also thought that the Sonics were not quite right in number/switches…but I just assumed I had miscounted, or there had been an error (sadly, too many years watching crappy TV has weakened my faith in ever-reliable continuity). And I LOVE the fact that there are three Jennifers to be a clue!
Three. Explanation three. I'll put ten bucks on it. I'd put more on, if I had it. We were given THREE Jennifers in this ep as a CLUE. There are THREE doctors, not two. And the third we saw in last week's ep- when the doctor went out to look for his TARDIS, there was a scene of him zapping the flesh (again) with the sonic. Except I don't think that was the same doc who went looking for the TARDIS. I think it was Utah Doc. And he created flesh doc, with the second "zap".
Ooh yes, good point. I would really love a flashback style re-explanation of this episode that involves lots of switching and swapping. Like Ocean's Eleven but with Sonic Screwdrives instead of Big Bags of Money or whatever.
I would imagine that if the Doctor can scan the flesh with the screwdriver, he can also use it to let the Flesh scan him to create another Ganger.
I liked your whole duality theory, but this is even better-seriously seems to fit really well! I wouldn't be at all surprised (and to be honest kind of hope) this is right!
Other evidence that makes three likely includes the fact that the Doctor keeps knowing things before they happen. The phone ringing …
Well of course he knew when the phone was going to ring. He placed the call to little boy Adam. We saw him do this in the episode. He placed the call but set it so that it would not be answered until a little bit in the future, because he figured that having Adam on the phone would be an ace card that he could play with the kid's dad at some point in the near future.
Yes I think you're right about that, in retrospect. I will have to cross this one off and find more CLUES to replace it.
but how did he know *when* to have the call go through?? It just so happened to be placed when he was with the gangers. So I think you can keep it on your list. 😉
YOU GUYS BY THE WAY IF YOU USE THE WORD SHOES IN YOUR COMMENT IT WILL BE SENT TO THE MODERATION QUEUE.
So, er, be creative (footwear, foot-thingies, flippy-floppies) or stick HTML in the middle of the word (s[b][/b]hoes [replacing the brackets with HTML tags, of course]) or something if you want your comment to show up immediately.
THESE SHOES! THEY FIT PERFECTLY!!!
Just… testing… 😉
That did get sent to the moderation queue, FYI.
Yeah, I did get the message that "your message needs to be approved by a moderator", but I simply couldn't pass on an opportunity to use TWO quotes by two different Doctors… XD
The Interwebz, you win them.
Why couldn't they have thrown that in too with the other past doctor quotes? I'd have been on the floor.
Why does using that word send comments to the moderation queue? I'm guessing swear/spam filter, but "shoes" doesn't seem long enough to contain any common spambot words.
Maybe the second and third (and possibly even fourth) letter as a slur meaning a prostitute?
It's in the spam filter, likely because the blog gets a lot of shoe-related spam. ASICS really loves Mark!
Maybe spambots like to advertise trainers? I don't know…
WAIT I CAN ACTUALLY REMOVE THIS.
BRB DOING IT NOW
These shoes cost us 300 replies
These shoes cost us 300 replies
These shoes cost us 300 f#cking replies
LET'S SCREEN EM
MARK HAS ENDED THE SHOE OPPRESSION.
DOWN WITH CALCEISM.
The Rebel Flesh was the first episode this season I was pretty lukewarm to, but HOLY SHIT THIS MAKES UP FOR IT, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU WRITERS STOP
I can't coherently formulate a good theory, right now I'm predicting crazy stuff like EVERYONE WAS A GANGER THE WHOLE TIME!
Also, BBC America: NO U >:(
I thought there was a lot of good in this episode. I am very pleased at the sizeable amount of Amy/Doctor interactions in this episode, and I liked the role Amy played with being the voice of 'unsophisticated' humans lacking the instinctual acceptance of the gangers that the Doctor has. To some extent, Amy's lack of acceptance read as being un-genre-savvy, and was therefore a bit tedious to watch at first, but there was a number of things that made me really like her reaction. For one, she did genuinely seem to feel badly about her reticence towards the ganger Doctor. And then when the Doctor physically pushes her against a wall and scares her, I was definitely on Amy's side, even if I sympathized with what the Doctor was going through. And I thought it was pretty courageous that the writing went there and let the Doctor scare her, and let Amy react in such a negative way to him.
And then the reveal of the two Doctors being basically indistinguishable from one another was a pretty good way to resolve the philosophical issues of 'real or not.' That Amy couldn't tell the difference was kind of a punch to the gut, even if it was a bit predictable. But I really did enjoy the way Amy reacted by the end, and that she really did seem to be impressed with the fact that she couldn't tell. "Twice the man" and everything.
Also appreciate that the episode has put the audience in Amy's position, where we are now faced with the notion that the Amy we've been watching wasn't the "real" her, and what that means to us. For all that I've seen this sort of philosophical questioning of clone identity in the past, I've never personally felt like I was so close to the story as I have with this episode and the flesh Amy reveal. Because I did have that initial hesitation of 'you mean we weren't really watching Amy all this time?,' which is the opposite of the message of this episode. So I enjoy the construction of this story.
I also found most of the guest stars to be much more interesting this time around. Not so much with Jennifer, but I really did kind of love Miranda. Seriously, she was pretty funny and I definitely felt like I'd love her in real life were she to exist. And then the whole father/son thing was done well, and I enjoyed how that seemed to be a trigger to bring out the compassion and humanity in the gangers. Was also glad it was a father reacting to his child, when it could easily have been written as a mother reacting instead. So I am glad the woman was in charge, and the man got to be the one to react to "his" child. All in all, very happy with the sympathetic gangers and compassionate humans in this half of the story, when I really wasn't happy with the previous episode.
But I am honestly bracing myself for the pregnancy storyline to be going in a direction that I will find horrible, because this is science fiction and I cannot bring myself to hope for a sci fi pregnancy storyline I actually like. I mean, already there's issues of consent, plus the whole kidnapped and locked up thing. These things can be done well and explore interesting ideas, but just in general, these stories tend not to be in my favor. Personal squick, even if it's handled well in the text.
So while I am still deeply interested in the various mysteries going on in this series, I am resigned to having low expectations for some of them.
I am glad, however, that there is some explanation for why the Doctor wasn't telling Amy before about him scanning her and wondering if she was pregnant. Presumably, he had some inkling that Amy wasn't the real Amy and that the inconclusive pregnancy test was a product of the flesh aspect. So to explain the scan would mean explaining she wasn't in her original body, and that would just be hard to bring up in a conversation. Him not telling her earlier seems a lot more reasonable to me now. Which is not to say that it's the better decision to keep these things a secret, but it's at least a lot more understandable.
I still am kinda shocked at how dark it was to basically have to watch Amy becoming a puddle, and for the Doctor to be the one responsible for it, but it's more that I'm interested that they went there with the story, not that I dislike the decision. Because I think it is probably a justifiable action on the Doctor's part – presumably Amy being conscious in her original body is an important thing to happen.
I'm also wondering if we're going to get any flashbacks of the time we missed before the opener and/or those three months between the 1st and 2nd episodes. Since presumably there were shenanigans going on, possibly rather important to the plot.
Matt Smith doing previous Doctors was awesome.
I know it would be pretty difficult for the story to have a Doctor clone around for an extended amount of time, but it would be nice.
Basically everyone BUT Rory died in some capacity. Thought I would point that out.
Completely agree. I am deeply concerned about the pregnancy storyline. Increasingly so because THEORIES ABOUND
…because of the amount of comments I've seen across the internet that suggest Amy is pregnant with a Tardis baby/Silence baby/other kind of alien hybrid and don't seem to have ANY PROBLEM with the idea that our beloved Amy might have been impregnated against her will.
If it's anything other than 100% consensual, I'm seriously going to lose my shit. This is still a family show and that is extremely rapey.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with exploring these sorts of dark themes, even on a family show.
My issue is not that I don't accept, as you say, "rapey" storylines, it's that I question how well it will be handled. That and I'm just tired of seeing aliens/demons/whatever impregnating human women.
Oh, oh, hang on a sec, doesn't that put Amy and Rory equal in on-screen deaths?
Rory: Amy's Choice, Cold Blood, Day of the Moon, Curse of the Black Spot
Amy: Amy's Choice, Pandorica Opens, Day of the Moon, Almost People
The Doctor's Wife is debatable as that was a Head!Rory (and pretty obviously so) but even if you include it he's only one ahead now!
I do count The Doctor's Wife, but it's entirely possible Amy also "died" off-screen in that, because we didn't see what the House tormented Rory with.
Basically everyone BUT Rory died in some capacity. Thought I would point that out.
Ahahaha, I didn't even think about that.
"Basically everyone BUT Rory died in some capacity. Thought I would point that out."
Twice, in Buzzer's case.
Buzzer actually dies three times in this two-parter, since he's the guy who tips into the acid at the very beginning.
That dude had bad, bad luck.
I'm quite disturbed by the whole pregnancy/birth thing as well. Going to discuss previous THEORIES ABOUND here which have not yet been proven/disproven. Also warning for ranting and discussion of rape-related themes
Firstly because WTF, that birthing chamber thing *is* just like some kind of "futuristic" version of twilight sleep. I know I went on about this before, but it's just, ugh, labour is painful for a reason, you regain full ability to move around for a reason, being cooped up in a tiny pod thing pretty much counteracts all of that. Medicalisation of birth scares the crap out of me anyway, surely by the 51st century – if your theory is correct – they would realise how counterproductive it is? (And the very worst position for giving birth too ;)) I know it's just a TV trope thing and I wasn't seriously expecting it to be realistic, but that was just horrible.
Secondly WTF is that thing at the end of the tube? She doesn't get to know she's even pregnant, then goes through a highly likely to be traumatic labour, and then doesn't even get to SEE the baby?? Amy better have some serious mama-bear rage over this.
Thirdly, when I rewatched DOTM after all the Amy-being-impregnated-by-the-silence theories were floating around, when she's in the chair in the chamber thing one of them leans in close to speak to her, and she says "Stop it, you're hurting me!" but it's never explicitly shown what exactly it was doing to hurt her, and that really, REALLY squicked me out. If that turns out to be the implantation of the baby/alien DNA (via injection or whatever, either way) I will be seriously considering boycotting the rest of the series. Hopefully I'm just being oversensitive or something about that scene though.
(51st century isn't my idea, and not one I've proposed, so I figure that's a mistake on your part)
Yeah, I simply don't trust sci fi and fantasy to do pregnancy storylines well. In theory, I think they can be done well, and explore scary and invasive themes with a lot of thought. BUT, I don't think I've ever seen it done that way. Even Dollhouse, which was basically an entire show about consent issues, didn't imo explore the issues it was working with sufficiently. (Plus, Whedon likes his torture porn.)
Which is the issue – so much of this whole 'let's kidnap a pregnant woman/impregnate a woman' type of story deals with a lot of shock value and goes the route of horror story for the drama, and not for the social commentary. I've seen it over and over and over, so honestly, I don't plan on boycotting, because most of my favorite television shows have actually done this. (ENOUGH, STARGATE.)
Also, I tracked down a fanvid I remember I'd watched about this very subject, which you might find interesting.
EDIT: I should have noted it earlier. I don't want to outright list the shows the fanvid uses since that would give away the point that this show does this sort of story, which is a spoiler. So just to clarify, the fanvid uses multiple video sources, and does use at least one show Mark intends to cover. But there really aren't spoilers beyond 'this show does an iffy pregnancy storyline.'
Oh sorry, it must have been someone else who said 51st century.
That video is creepy D: I don't recognise any of the sources though. Probably because I don't watch much sci-fi. Maybe that's why I'm finding this whole storyline more shocking :/ Thanks for the link.
Whedon was OBSESSED with creepy pregnancies. I think Cordelia alone went through the demon pregnancy storyline three times in Angel, not to mention Darla, and, to an extent, Fred.
I'm rather terrified for next week. The part that irks me the most is that Moffat mentioned in the Confidential for the Van Gogh episode that he was wary/apprehensive about having a story about depression on a Saturday Night Family Show, and I think it was one of the most socially important episodes of S5, as it dealt with a real-world problem that many children actually can suffer from, not to mention those around them. Yet he's perfectly comfortable showing a 22-year-old woman giving birth in a creepy white tunnel with – I'm guessing – a vacuum at the end, that she's been imprisoned in for the duration of her pregnancy that she was completely unaware of, in an unknown location far, far away from the people she loves and trusts the most, her husband and her best friend. And I'm having an increasingly difficult time buying that this is an okay thing to label and market as a family show, much as I love it. I really hope that Moffat gives space for Amy to emotionally deal with this incredibly traumatizing situation that he's created.
I was shying away from mentioning Angel since Buffy's on Mark's list, but basically, yes. So much. (I have major issues with Whedon, no matter how much I enjoy his work. He just also makes me angry, in addition to the (sometimes super-)enjoyable.)
And argh, you've just highlighted why I run away from showrunner/writer interviews. Even the confidentials – no matter how adorable the cast may be, I cannot handle it when someone creating something I enjoy says something ridiculous. I do want to make clear I'm not mad or anything that you told me that he said that – it's worth noting. It just makes me really unhappy, for the reasons you describe.
And I agree that the way it's handled so far is very displeasing. While I was saying before that I don't think non-consent storylines must automatically not be family show material, that's not to say that the execution doesn't matter. And I don't expect the execution to be very thoughtful, considering what we're shown in this episode.
That's an interesting POV on interviews. And yeah, that comment pissed me off so much. I think though, in the end, if a writer handles a storyline badly, it'd cause me to lose a lot more respect for them than any supplementary interview they could ever give.
In all honesty, I've been relying on Confidentials to help me sleep at night with series six. I've got an overactive imagination at the best of times, but it's a bit easier to not have nightmares about the Silence when you've seen the masks being made, or behind-the-scenes footage of the actors dancing in the Silence costumes.
A lot of my "what's appropriate for kids" ideas are kind of based on my own limited perspective, as I'm scared easily, and watching something like The Flesh or The Silence would have terrified me beyond belief at TWELVE. Heck, fifteen. There's been times when, at twenty-four, I've had to pause the most recent episodes and watch kitten videos for a few minutes, although it doesn't detract from my insane love of this show.
But I think culturally, we make a huge separation between what we believe is appropriate viewing/reading material for kids, and what kids actually go through. I'm not saying we should have Saturday morning cartoons that overtly or graphically deal with child molestation, suicide or abuse just for the heck of it. But you're right in that many kids probably do come face-to-face with consent issues regularly, and it's important for them to learn attitudes early on about what is and isn't appropriate. And sci-fi, being largely allegorical, can be a really good venue to deal with that, and I think Doctor Who's done a good job introducing both messages of tolerance and moral quandries, so hopefully they can do a similar thing with dealing with what basically amounts to torture, in Amy's case. Regardless of where the baby came from, there's major issues of consent at play, and I hope that can show strength, but at the same time the show deals with how traumatizing that must be for anyone.
I'm pretty sure this is a loooooooot longer than it ever needs to be.
And then when the Doctor physically pushes her against a wall and scares her, I was definitely on Amy’s side, even if I sympathized with what the Doctor was going through.
This very much yes. Reading the comments on the liveblog were kind of painful here. It’s like….
peeps on liveblog: “Amy, you’re being kind of a jerk to Ganger!Doctor.”
me reading liveblog: “Yes, well, considering he just PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED her, how about we give her that one, yah?
THIS. I think it was a shitty way for the doctor to treat her, even if the point was to make her not trust the fake-ganger-doctor. WTH? If someone I really trusted did this to me, the trust would be pretty fucking damaged, even if they did have good reason.
I think that scene served several puposes. As you say, from a storytelling standpoint, it makes Amy (and us) not trust Ganger!Doctor (or who we think is Ganger!Doctor – we don't know they'd switched shoes yet). And the script makes it very clear that this isn't one for laughing off: Amy actually says, "You're hurting me!" This is absolutely meant to be a troubling interaction.
But then once we find out that was Actual!Doctor attacking Amy in the hallway – yeeesh! – I suspect several other things are going on –
– The Doctor is picking up on the anguish of The Flesh, and he's getting really, really emotional. Not an excuse for laying violent hands on Amy, but a possible explanation.
– The Doctor, knowing this is Ganger!Amy, isn't really considering her a real person anymore, so the gloves can come off. Heck, he melts her at the end without a second thought, so what's a little physical violence, right? (As someone else in the comments pointed out, this doesn't conflict with his insistence on treating the other Gangers as people; since they separated from their originating consciousnesses, they *are* people. Amy's Ganger is however a flawless "forklift truck," as we see when he melts her, and Actual!Amy wakes up. Anyway, he still gets ALL THE FROWNIE FACES for this, because the body Amy was piloting may not have been real, but Amy's consciousness was in it. Even if it wasn't, a real consciousness was in it. You don't treat people like that!
– He was probably genuinely demanding to know if Amy, being a Ganger herself, shared in The Flesh's memories of suffering – if it was in her head, too. So the enraged "Can't you feel it?!" takes on another layer. Again, no excuse for the rough treatment, but it is a classic piece of stage direction.
So. Lots of meaning in the scene, none of which remotely diminishes the whole "Total jerkface way to treat someone who trusts you, Doctor" thing.
I think the first or third is the most likely reason, considering that the melting is fully explained so she knows what's happening, and he does say he's doing it in the most humane way possible.
There's another explanation: he just realized that Amy told him he was going to die, and she'd seen it happen. He was upset and lashed out.
1) British people, you talk too fast. Stop it.
2) "I've reversed the jelly baby of the neutron flow…"
3) I stopped paying attention to which Doc was which a little ways in. Except when Amy was being speciesist, I wasn't quite aware at all.
4) I didn't catch on my own (see 1) that the Doctor knows who sent the messages in The Impossible Astronaut now.
5) Did it have to be as confusing as it was? And did they really need to make !Jennifer into a big bad? Though I did think the moral complexity was otherwise improved a bit from "The Rebel Flesh."
6) Didn't catch the phrase "blood clot" either, though that may have been the file I "legally acquired" or my headphones.
7) I did notice that there was some confusion over where the sonic screwdriver was, especially toward the end.
8) Ah…that ending.
Firstly, this isn't an explanation for Amy wearing the same outfit more than usual, because she has changed it since the ganger swap. Look at "Day of the Moon" — we know she was a ganger by then, thanks to her first Eye Patch Lady vision. (Yes, I've stopped calling her Seven of Nine.)
Secondly, when and where is she? (51st century is my guess.) It's pretty impressive that the connection was maintained in 1969, in the 1600s, and even outside the universe.
Thirdly, did the Doctor know how far along Amy was? 'Cause if he figured her connection would have to be cut before she gave birth, he was cutting the trip to the castle awfully close. Hopefully, he had enough time to figure out where and when it was coming from before that trip.
Fourthly, that's gotta be, pardon the pun, the mother of all birth traumas.
Fifthly, do gangers get periods?
Sixthly, will Amy be reconnected to that blob of Flesh after giving birth? It might help to be back with her husband and best friend again, albeit via telepresence.
9) I don't think I've ever used this particular catchphrase before, but I'm not remotely prepared for "N Tbbq Zna Tbrf gb Jne." And I'm anticipating it like I've never anticipated a Who episode before. (Granted, the first episode I "anticipated" was "A Christmas Carol.")
war can be made inevitable
How is that going to effect the Doctor now?
"do gangers get periods" LOL. Did Graham (and Moffat) even THINK of that? :D:D:D
I actually assume she would, as she was a physical replica of Amy, but not pregnant. So her body would act as Amy's non pregnant body would have acted. I think.
Yeah, my thought is if a ganger can get a blood clot, they can menstruate as well.
1) British people, you talk too fast. Stop it.
Excuse us, we're making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.
(No offense intended. I'm not even British, actually.)
Ah damn it only one more episode and then we have to wait for months before any resolution on that no doubt terrible cliffhanger.
THEORIES ABOUND maybe, I really honestly don't know if I have any but better safe than sorry.
I may need to rewatch this episode a few more times before I really fully understand what in god's name is going on for half of it. It's a whole different experience to watch the second time now that I know Amy is actually Ganger!Amy and Ganger!Doctor is actually Normal!Doctor pretending to be Ganger!Doctor and…BRAIN, MELTING. OH GOD.
Okay my main thought, and the thing that I cling to throughout in an attempt to follow what's happening, MATT SMITH IS AMAZING! Especially the opening with the flashes of previous regenerations (I actually didn't catch Ten's voice the first time, too busy freaking at Four's I guess). Oh hell the whole episode was Matt being more and more awesome with every passing moment.
I caught the multiple Screwdrivers issue straight away and I honestly still cannot make sense of it. I've seen it suggested that the Flesh replicated the Sonic while creating Ganger!Doctor but they clearly pass the screwdriver between them before seperating (Ganger!Doctor posing as Normal passes it to Normal posing as Ganger…god that's complicated) but then they clearly each have one while apart only for Normal to hand a sonic back to Ganger at the end so…yeah it's still a bit of a grey area, well for me at least.
He predicted the phone call/hologram for Billy
I didn't catch it until rewatching but just before Billy's hologram shows up there's some text saying something to the effect of "Scheduled call" which suggests that it was organised beforehand. I'm guessing that's what Ganger!Doctor (I think it was him) meant when he told Amy he was making a call that wasn't going to arrive yet. Like, he was scheduling the call then so it would show up later. Not so much predicting as just organising in advance.
Soooo much squicky horror in this episode. The pile of rotting Gangers and wall of eyes were particular highlights. Jennifer's monster form at the end was…I don't know, it felt a bit too much of a retread of the Lazarus monster from series 3. The extreme close ups of the Flesh prosthetic just before she changed were pretty damn creepy though (even if they were in the pre-series trailer). The stretchy jaw when she killed Buzzer were about the same level as the stretchy-neck from last week for me, ie. not very intimidating at all.
Amy…I just…OH MY GOD! The final shots of her in wherever the hell she is were absolutely terrfiying. With her legs propped up and that green light between them I just, OH MY GOD! SOMEONE GET HER OUT OF THERE FAST!
Heh, I too freaked, okay Squee'd, at Four. Frankly Ten isn't vastly different from Eleven when heard in a brief soundbite like that so it was only a fluke that I caught it, very easy to miss. And yes, Matt is indeed magnificent.
There's definite echoes of the future coming through here, maybe something to do with having two Doctor's at once, maybe something more, but whatever the reason if it results in more Seven-style Chessmaster forward-planning from Eleven I'm all for it!
"There's definite echoes of the future coming through here"
The future echoes made me think of Idris saying stuff before it happened. I don't know what, if anything, that means, but that's what it felt like.
With a dash of Amy's countdown in "Flesh and Stone," though that was more in the sort of 'the Doctor doesn't notice he's saying anything' sense than anything else.
I'm wondering…. Has anyone checked which doctor was saying all the future-y stuff? I think it may have been Ganger!Doctor whenever it had something to do with Amy being pregnant. Some sort of ganger link, maybe? Like, he could sense what Amy was going through because of her ganger, and…. (i'm kind of stretching things here) because he was a ganger of the doctor he was able to figure out what she needed to be told about it? I really have no clue.
I also kept thinking of seven when I realised just how much more the doctor has known, and planned and manipulated. Very 'manipulative Seven'-esque!
Okay, other things I picked up on in between all the MIND MELTING CONFUSION:
– "RORANICUS PONDICUS!" Aaaawww. I hadn't realised until checking specifically this week but Rory has no surname in the end credits. Dear BBC please fix this ASAP.
– I suspected it last week and now that I've rewatched Curse of the Black Spot I know I was right, the entrance to the room with the acid vat (the one Jennifer and Rory lock everyone else in) is the same set as the alien spaceship from episode 3, the part where the Doctor, Amy and Avery arrive with the two staircases leading up to the door. Again, minor details that don't really affect the episode but I pick up on anyway.
– "Tough, dependable Sexy." Aaaww it's still her name <3
I have about a billion other thoughts about this episode but honestly, I CANNOT PUT THEM IN ORDER BECAUSE well mostly because I have a headache but also OMG THIS EPISODE IS CONFUSING AS HELL!
I checked the whole 'Rory has no surname in the credits' thing a few weeks back because I'm sad like that. He was credited as Rory Williams in the Eleventh Hour and then just Rory from Vampires of Venice on. Weird, they gave his full name once, then dropped it. I am all in favour of him being credited as Roranicus Pondicus from now on though.
Huh, that is weird. It probably won't be changed by next week but maybe they'll finally change his credit for the second half of the series.
He was Rory Pond on the cover of Doctor Who Magazine back at the start of the series when they had the multiple covers. I'm sad it's not the same on the show.
Maybe they don't have his last name, so that the fans can decide if he's Rory Williams or Rory Pond. Or maybe they haven't decided which it is yet. I'm sticking with Pond myself, because that's just awesome IMO.
Well okay, there was another thought (and as usual, I forgot until about ten minutes after making my post):
For someone who supposedly hated himself so much that it manifested as a malevolent entity that screwed with everyone's minds back in Amy's Choice the two Elevens get along surprisingly well in this episode. This isn't necessarily a criticism or even a completely thought out point, just something I thought was interesting.
I think though that most people are generally okay with themselves, it's just in certain dark moments when you start to doubt yourself and it snowballs. So I think the dream lord was a manifestation of that, and it was almost unconscious and uncontrollable, whereas when the doctor called up a ganger of himself that was intentional. And wouldn't you be curious if you had the chance to hang out with yourself for a while?
The disco room would like to welcome DC Chris Skelton… err… I mean Buzzer.
And now I have an opportunity to once again bring out this excellent piece of artwork from our friend the lovely and talented Swimming Trunks:
Also: WOW this episode. Totally made up for last episode. AND WHAT THE HELL AMY WAS A GANGER ALL ALONG. Brilliance.
My favorite part of this entire two parter was how different the experiences of flesh Jennifer made her, and how different the experience of seeing real!Cleaver kill another flesh person really changed flesh!Cleaver to become a much better, less destructive person. And that was the first flash we had.. that Cleaver could be someone better, someone kinder and someone different, and we saw that come into being near the end when she finds out about her own mortality.
I thought it was really poignant to see the gangers and the humans react differently to this situation because of their already wildly varying experiences.
But I know a lot of other people hated this two-parter and were bored but IDK I liked it. Also, Rory didn't die. His line about his guns were the best EVER.
ALSO THAT ENDING.
WHAT IS HAPPENING TO MY LIFE.
OK THEORIES ABOUND NOW
– I think Amy was taken in the warehouse, right after she told the Doctor she was pregnant, somewhat before she was "all better now," and during a time that is off screen, confused, only shows up in black/white fuzziness in episode 2. We never did find out how Rory got out of the crowd of Silents, and or how any of them got out of the building.
– Jack is probably coming back this series since Dorien is in the episode next week. He sold River the time vortex manipulator last series "off the freshly cut off hand of a handsome time agent." And the announcer during the credits this week said an old familiar face is coming back next week, so either it's River or JACKKK!!! I live in hope OK. Shut up.
– S5E01–did the Doctor pick Amy up because he knew there was something special about her other than the crack in the wall? Or was it just because it was the crack in the wall? Because she's definitely special in other ways too we just don't know why.
And actually speaking of that—why did the crack occur in her wall first? And why were the fish people running from the Silence?
This all has to connect somehow FUUU.
It completely blew my mind too, I don't even know what to say. @_@ Well, except this thought, which kept running through my head the whole episode (and proved distracting at times): "Two Elevens? I can't tell you what I'm thinking right now."
(though I'm sure you can guess)
Heh, want an evil thought? Remember when Rory had a minor brain melt moment at the thought of two Amy's at the same time back in the Comic Relief special? Yep, in Steven Moffat's Who not even comic sketches are innocent throwaway bits of fun!
Two Elevens, Two Amys, and Two Rorys. I definitely can't tell you what I'm thinking right now. haha.
"Two Elevens? I can't tell you what I'm thinking right now."
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How could anyone over the age of about 15 watch that episode and NOT think that?
I'm sure a million billion people will have answered this before me, but, in regards to melting Ganger!Amy at the end, I'll quote myself from the liveblog:
It's real!Amy's mind the whole time, which is why she keeps seemingly hallucinating eyepatch lady. If you listen really closely to the Doctor's babbling, he specifically states that he kept scanning the Flesh because he wanted to learn how to block the signal–IE, how to cut off this connection between real!Amy's mind and fake!Amy body. So when he uses the screwdriver on her, that's exactly what he does. If fake!Amy had been like the Gangers in these two episodes, 'hardwired' as he puts it, his zap would have done nothing because the Gangers in this episode had been animated by the storm, and no longer needed the real thems to maintain their shape.
Think of the Amy we've been watching as a remote controlled body of the real!Amy, and real!Amy has been along for the ride in said remote controlled body with no idea that this has happened.
Ah, THIS is something I'd not considered. The ganger's dissolving was a result of the connection being broken. I was looking on it as the doctor killed the ganger in order to break the connection, when actually he probably broke the connection and a sad side effect was the ganger death (morally I find those two different, though practically the end result is the same).
As for the Doctor's apparent omniscience, I'm sure other people will also mention these points but just to set out clearly what I took from that…
1) He knew about the phone call from Billy because he called him in order to change ganger!jimmy's mind. I'm not sure exactly when he did this, but he had plenty of opportunity fiddling around with machinery in this episode.
2) He told Amy to 'push only when she says so' because by this point he had worked out that Amy was a ganger, and that the real Amy was elsewhere, and about to have her baby. I assume either he has previous knowledge of the eyepatch lady being a midwife, or that he just made the assumption himself that's what she was. Either way, it's sound advice to give a woman about to go into labour, and not particularly surprising.
3) He gave the red balloon to ganger!Jimmy to give to his son. It wasn't a coincidence. He just happened to have balloons in the Tardis which he gave to ganger!Jimmy, knowing it was his son's birthday.
That doesn't count as Theories Abound does it? More like explanations of things that might not have been clear as I saw them. 😛
Yeah, at one point (While Amy is being all prejudicial) whilst he's fiddling with the machinery she asks what he's doing. He says making a phone call. Who to? No one yet, but later. The hologram even has words on it saying something like "Thank You for Ordering this Call."That's that future explained. So many people seem to have missed that one! The Ring Ring was creepy, but he KEPT LOOKING AT HIS WATCH. It was timed!
I kind of assumed the balloons were just produced by the TARDIS as well. But then maybe they were significant. I don't know 🙁 thinking about this episode hurts.
Sister mine had a red balloon.
maybe she doesn't anymore
He said he was placing a call for later when they were in the evac tower.
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‘She’s a tough old thing.’ ‘Tough, old, sexy’ ‘Tough, dependable, sexy.’ Doctor/TARDIS OTP!
I loved having two Doctors and I love how they interacted, especially that opening scene where Ganger Doctor was working through past regenerations. Matt Smith for all the awards! It was really interesting seeing how Amy interacted with the Doctor and Ganger Doctor, or well who she perceived as Doctor and Ganger Doctor. Obviously there's the usual strong friendship there with the Doctor (so cute with the spiny chairs) but she can't help but feel different to Ganger Doctor because she hasn't gone through everything with him even if he has the memories and is essentially the same. I'm so excited to see where Amy telling the Doctor about his death goes because he doesn't have any details outside of the fact he invited people to his death.
‘It’s a narrow doorway. I can defend it easily enough so can she.’
I like how they showed how similar the people and ganger are by them using knowledge of themselves to know what would happen of they tried certain things, especially with Miranda. Kudos as well, I was convinced at one stage during The Rebel Flesh that Miranda would be the one causing all the problems, I definitely didn’t expect it to be Jenny, or for her to go to the lengths she did.
I thought Ganger Amy wasn’t a ganger in the same sense as the others in this episode, but that she was more like how the gangers worked at the start of the first part where they had to be connected to the original people. It seemed to me that her consciousness was in a ganger body while her real body was being pregnant and watched by creepy eye patch lady, so she didn’t even know herself that something was wrong, hence waking up shocked and pregnant in that chamber. It also explains why the Doctor wasn't that squeamish about destroying Ganger Amy
Again that ending
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I’d hate to be the Doctor having to deal with Rory after the end of that episode.
THEORIES ABOUND kind of but probably just rambling.
So I’ve only really read theories here but I like the idea that Amy’s body was replaced during the three months between The Impossible Astronaut and Day of the Moon since not only does it explain thinking she was pregnant and then turning out not to be but she was alone a lot of the time so it would’ve been easy to swap her out without anyone noticing. The real question though is does this mean the little girl actually is Amy’s baby like the picture from DotM? And if so how is the child all Time Lordy? I don’t think it’d be a consequence of travelling in the TARDIS while pregnant because she presumably got pregnant during the few months she and Rory were doing the normal newlyweds thing since she wasn’t showing at the start of the series. (Unless travelling in the TARDIS has a long term physiological effect outside of what we already know in canon and spin offs.) (Or maybe Time Lords don’t need to worry about reproductive effects because looms :P) So possibly outside interference? But why would they? So many questions and yet Saturday is so far away.
Its interesting that the Doctor says to Amy during the picnic in The Impossible Astronaut, that she looks like she has put on weight. So one would assume that Amy's ganger came into existence only after the picnic.
“The Doctor chose to disobey his own moral code for some important reason.”
He kinda had to. He's done more severe things because he had to.
Oh, I thought Amy was so annoying. I mean, like, Rose Tyler levels of annoying. I'm going to blame it on her ganger-ness.
My lus…love for Rory knows no bounds. If the theory that he is the good man who River kills is true, I will be sad. I'm dreading the cliffhanger. Next week, if anyone hears a loud cry of “DAMN YOU STEVEN MOFFAT!” from the direction of Washington state, that's me.
So, due to circumstances beyond my control, I wasn't able to watch 'Rebel Flesh' until Saturday. So I used the opportunity to watch it immediately before this one and it really works well as a continuous story. A lot of the time with two parts you can see the joins far too obviously but atmosphere, script and actors were great (maybe not the effect for Jennifer at the end which seemed recycled from The Lazarus Experiment). Perhaps there was a bit of confusion as to why Ganger Jennifer suddenly wanted to kill the originals (thought about it after: is it because she was a ganger of a ganger, giving her more characteristics of the Flesh itself rather than the human it was based on?). Overall, v. good. I think that the Doctor knew that Amy's ganger wasn't really sentient like the other Gangers (as it hadn't been affected by the solar storm) but because they realised that the flesh itself had memory in the course of everything he said that he would be as kind as he could given what they knew now. Oh, last thing. Rory trusting the Doctor and stepping away from Amy at the end. In the midst of all that wtf, a nice little moment.
So I think Amy wasn't taken by the Silence from the orphanage in Day of the Moon. She was dissolved by them. Therefore they're in on it. Possibly not controlling, but definitely in on it. Hence the removing of the monitoring chip with no scar left behind whatsoever. It then defaulted to Amy in the birth chamber thing until a new Ganger was created (by the Silence? by Eyepatch Lady?) which means that they had Plans for Amy to be rescued by the Doctor. Not the first time he's been caught by a long con, if so. Also, if Amy's ganger was created as a way to cover for her being held there, why did the Eyepatch Lady say "no I think she's just dreaming". Is she not aware that there was a Ganger out there being controlled by Amy? Incidentally, these aren't so much theories as yet more questions. Roll on Saturday.
Snape is actually working for Dumbledore, and killed him on his own orders.
OK, there's stretching, and then there's just being silly.
Next they'll be telling us he was in love with Lily! Honestly…
yeah, right, and Harry's a Horcrux.
Are you insane? That's just being silly now.
Oh, and I thought the flesh was of Sontaran origin?
I have tons of theories, but most of you have expressed them. May I just say, though, that I love the fact that in the live blog we ALL WENT THROUGH THE SAME REACTIONS.
"Urrrgh, Creepy Gangers"
It makes me happy, and is one of the most valuable things about this community. All these strangers, all round the world, sharing fandom insanity with each other in a non-negative way. Hold on, I'm getting smushy…
I'm british, I don't feel emtions- stiff upper lip…
And the biggest question now is:
Has Matthew Graham redeemed himself with this two-parter in the eyes of Doctor Who fandom after the travesty that was "Fear Her"?
I say FUCK YES HE HAS!!!
trololololol, i completely forgot about that episode.
I think the neatest bit about it was the cars with the 2012-year numberplates. And that was it.
hoshit those license plates are gonna become canon next year wtf
Can I just say I love that you just used the word canon to talk about 'real life' :D:D:D
I would like to cackle smugly that I guessed that the Doctor switched shoes way in advance. In fact, I guessed it the second the Doctor said that you could tell them apart by the shoes because the Doctor is a cheeky scamp and I never trust him to tell the truth. That said, I completely didn't pick up on the relevance of Amy telling the *original* Doctor about his death, which makes me feel a little less smug.
I don't even want to try and theorise about the ending of this episode because I am so confused and it makes my brain cry. It would just be me typing 'what' over and over again. Seriously though… WHAT.
Ah, I keep forgetting rule one: the Doctor lies.
I guess I went along with GangerDoctor's first words: trust me.
When a visual storytelling medium points out so very pointedly a point like that (the camera says HAY! HAY! LOOKIT-EM SHOES!), I generally suspect I'm being misdirected.
But I still forgot to get suspicious.
As I expect many people will have said by now, ganger Amy wasn't a ganger in the same way that the gangers in the factory were, i.e. with their own consciousness and actually suffering a physical death. Those gangers were individual from their original, whereas ganger Amy survives only as long as real Amy's consciousness is within her head. As the Doctor said – he needed to cut the signal, and once that happened the ganger couldn't survive anymore because the psychic link was broken. It was the solar storm which allowed the gangers to survive independentaly of their originals, not anything else. If real Amy was to survive and be conscious to have her baby and live the rest of her life, the fake body her consciousness or soul (or whatever) had been living in had to be destroyed. I made a diagram of it:
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Although it is slightly incorrect because I now think real Amy must have become pregnant after her ganger was created, or the ganger would have appeared pregnant. It was just the real Amy's existence bleeding through which caused the nausea and labour pains, in the same way as it caused her to see Eyepatch Lady. Which makes me sad because it means it probably isn't Rory's baby (WOE I WANT A BABY RORANICUS PONDICUS) and also raises a question of WHY WAS RIVER ALSO FEELING NAUSEA IN EPISODE ONE?? Is she a ganger too?? Was she also pregnant? I DO NOT KNOW THESE THINGS.
Also WHAT IS UP WITH THE DOCTOR BEING SO PSYCHIC AND WHY ARE THERE SO MANY SCREWDRIVERS AND WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE DOCTOR TELLING GANGER DOCTOR HE MAY BE ABLE TO SURVIVE IT ON A MOLECULAR LEVEL AND OH MY GOD CAN IT BE SATURDAY NOW PLEASE???
I agree with your diagram completely but one thing has been bugging me a little bit. How was Rory able to hear Not!Amy talking about her pregnancy scare on the nanomicrophone thing. The only thing I can think of would be Real!Amy talking in her sleep since is it programed to her genetic code/dna/is in her real hand (cant remember the exact science).
She might just appear 'put on a few pounds' though. The ganger body only replicated Amy, not the fetus inside of her — it has completely different DNA. So if her body was replicated without the fetus, her body might assume 'miscarriage' and continue it's normal not-pregnant business. So I think it's still possible she got preggo before kidnapping.
ACTUAL DOCTOR WHO RELATED THEORIES ABOUND
So, this isn't really a fully formed theory, more just a musing…the silence want this little girl who can regenerate, right? So we can assume that she is at least part time lord. And they also seem to be behind the proto-tardis from 'The Lodger'. So are they trying to create their own version of the Doctor?
They're creating both a sort of young Tardis and young Timelord. And the consensus is that the Doctor is the most powerful and feared being in the universe (at least, that's what they said when they put him in the Pandorica). So I wonder if they're trying to create something similar to the Doctor that's loyal to them? Because, in the end, wouldn't that be the ultimate weapon?
Just a thought. 🙂
buuuuuuut if The Silence are everywhere (and I don't think they were all wiped out in '69. Boy, that Summer of '69. Do you think the Silence made Bryan Adams buy his first real six-string at the five-and-dime?) and they really wanted this little girl kept safe, d'you really think they'd letter wander about homeless in the streets of New York?
Is it weird that I now really want to see a DW fanvid to this song, about those episodes?
There's several thngs struck me while watching this:
1. The Doctor never seemed to doubt Ganger Doc for an instant. Once he'd stabilised, and they'd had a quick conflab to establish that they shared the same memories (and presumably GangerDoc also knew exactly why he'd been created and what the object of the exercise was) and presumably that was when they swapped shoes, basically the Doctor never seemed worried that Ganger would behave differently.
2. As it was established that Gangers took a while for the nerves to connect properly, of course it was the actual Ganger sitting in the chair whilst the original ran around. But that's with 20-20 hindsight.
3. The Doctor clearly did a deal with the Flesh earlier on, which is why both Doctors knew what motivated the Flesh. The Doctor stated in the previous episode that the humans had no idea what they'd done to the Flesh.
4. The uncomfortable thought is that the entire two episodes were to test out if Amy felt any more connected to the flesh than to non-flesh. As she was so easily conned, then it was clear that the Amy Ganger wasn't in any way an independent entity but entirely remote controlled, so it could be disconnected. Chilling thought that.
5. The minor fact that Amy had worn more or less the same clothes all series despite having been a real clothes-horse in the first series suddenly becomes a plot point.
6. The whole question as to Who's the Daddy depends on when Amy was kidnapped.
"The uncomfortable thought is that the entire two episodes were to test out if Amy felt any more connected to the flesh than to non-flesh. As she was so easily conned, then it was clear that the Amy Ganger wasn't in any way an independent entity but entirely remote controlled, so it could be disconnected. Chilling thought that. "
That's actually quite brilliant, I didn't think of that. But of course, that's the perfect test – the fact that Amy didn't sympathise at all with the gangers proved to the Doctor that she wasn't aware of what she was.
I actually think this "test" occurred to the Doctor AFTER he got there with the Ponds. He originally wanted to drop them off for fish and chips so he could investigate the Flesh on his own. So he could continue to study Amy after finding out about the Flesh. But, Amy and Rory got taken along because of the storm, so he decided he could test her flat-out once he realized the separation of the Flesh.
Or maybe it was Plan B, in case the Ponds didn't want to go for fish and chips to be left behind…
: / Or maybe I'm just rambling now…
5. The minor fact that Amy had worn more or less the same clothes all series despite having been a real clothes-horse in the first series suddenly becomes a plot point.
I can't work out if I should feel good for noticing that or bad because my reaction was to get annoyed about it. Okay I'm just going to focus on the fact that there was a reason for it! It wasn't just a weird choice by the costume designer!
Also, did Rory or the Doctor not notice that she NEVER CHANGED HER CLOTHES? How oblivious do you have to be? (She clearly needs a sassy gay friend. He would have been right on it.)
Yeah that's kind of a plothole. What about when they went to bed (or had sex)? Did she sleep in them? Did she just take the clothes off and then put the same ones back on? For a few months? Didn't they smell? Isn't there an entire wardrobe on the tardis she could have chosen from?
I'm still not sure if that's a clue, wasn't it only her shirt that didn't change? She wore a skirt with leggings CotBS and pants in this episode and TIA/DotM, so it's not like she can't change them, she just… hasn't been? IDK.
It's all plaid, but different shirts. Look closely. The TIA/DotM shirt may have been the same as the shirt in the shirt in RF/AP, but the shirt in The Doctor's Wife and Black Spot – likely the same – has larger white patches, with red and navy in equal parts for more of a purply effect. It's very similar to the shirt worn in Space and Time. And the shirt worn at the beginning of TIA (in Amy and Rory's house) is mostly navy.
And yes, I've paid THAT much attention to Amy's clothes. It's a bit sad.
With all that, the plaid had better turn out to be a freaking plot point.
Hehe, I've been on some DW cosplay communities recently. Don't worry, there are *always* people paying more attention to the costumes than you. The attention to details in those comms is amazing!
She has though, hasn't she? Doesn't she wear a pants suit in DOTM? She sees eye patch lady at the orphanage so that's definitely post-swap.
Ganger clothes can clearly be taken on and off, otherwise the Doctor would not have been able to wear his Ganger's shoes. However, the Ganger is probably drawn to the ganger clothes, so Amy might well have chosen to wear her Ganger shirt repeatedly without really noticing that she was doing so.
This is very true, I'd forgotten that!
It has been my pet theory for quite some time now that River Song is the daughter of Amy and Rory. I really have no evidence for this, but it's just been in my mind the whole time. And after this episode, seeing how good Rory was trying to be, I'm now convinced that the man River kills, who was so great, was Rory, her own father. I know it's supposed to lead us into believing it's the Doctor, so therefore the logical conclusion is that it's a misdirect/twist because…you know, this is Moffat's Who. And come on, Rory waited two thousand years and does all this other amazing stuff–I think he qualifies as someone that great. Plus you could get into the technicalities of "man" may have meant "human male" in which case the Doctor doesn't qualify anyway annnd yeah.
Basically, I have no proof for any of this, but it's my pet theory and I'm sticking to it until I am proven wrong.
As for the rest of it, though? ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA OMG NEXT WEEK'S EPISODE NOW PLZ.
I think you are right. I scoffed at River is Amy's baby theories before, but everything points to it. And rory was so incredibly GOOD in this episode. I mean he defines what a GOOD human being IS. I fear River will kill Rory, though I don't know why. River has an affinity to the TARDIS, and if she was conceived there, and first formed, very early in Amy's preg, there… with all the TARDIS energy affecting the rapidly forming embryo in the most critical time of development- it could explain why the Silents wanted HER. It could also explain the regeneration stuff- she's not like a normal human, because of TARDIS exposure way back in her embryo days. This explains also why she can read Gallifreyan and fly the TARDIS so easily (the doctor has taught bits of TARDIS flying to companions before but no one was really proficient– River is).
So yes, your theory makes TONS of sense, and more sense as the show progresses.
I fully agree about the "good man" being Rory. Because of everything you said and also because it would be a very Moffat move to kill Rory off for real and have everyone believe that he's not really dead because he's "died" so often already and… yeah.
I'm still no big fan of the whole River is Amy's daughter thingie, but plot-wise it makes way too much sense to not be… at least probable. So yeah. I suppose I support your theory. ^^
I've been scared for a while now that Moffat has been killing rory over and over again just to torture us and make us complacent, then actually kill him and never bring him back. It's why I've fallen for every? most? death scenes of his. I just keep thinking OMG THIS TIME IT'S FOR REAL!
i have this nice little theory in which astronaut girl from 1ep that kills the doctor is child river.
arguments are strictly based on poeticness (is that a word?) and they go like this:
doctor lets her kill him for the same reason river gets killed (or kind of killed) in the library – suicide mission to make sure she meets him. she is/was/will be a child. a young impresionable girl. and he knows all about her. we know child in a suit was very scared. doc somehow finds out why she was is will be imprisoned and provokes her with his allknowingness to kill him. thats why he just walks into his death obviously knowing he will get killed.
if it really is something like that, then in their first and last (technically) encounter she is wearing a space suit.
and i would like to point out the fact that idris and doctor started with a goodby and ended with a hello. i am sure that fact fits somewhere in there.
and i would like to point out the fact that idris and doctor started with a goodby and ended with a hello. i am sure that fact fits somewhere in there.
Oooh, it's a nice parallel to how River and the Doctor's lives seem to be headed in opposite directions. The first time we meet River is when she is killed (goodbye), so perhaps young River could indeed be a the swansong hello? The meeting in Monument Valley was a bit of a hello-how-are-you thing….
I've always believed the spacesuit killer was River. But I always thought it was adult River, and a totally different entity to the child in the spacesuit. After all, the child was a kid in 1969, and in 2011, that's 32 years later. It's not impossible. And yes, I did make those figures up just now. Call it an exclusive. Or a load of wtfshutupn00b XD
42 years later. Not 32. 🙂
My mind is reeling with many of the same questions you raise. This was a heckuvan episode.
THEORIES ABOUND. THEORIES ABOUND. THEORIES ABOUND.
Well, I think they will as I ramble on. I did figure out there were two Amy's back when we first saw the TARDIS give a positive/negative reading. I assumed there were two conflicting timelines playing out. But it did seem to me the Amy on the TARDIS was linked to the Amy being monitored by eyepatch lady.
As far as Amy's ganger, I think it was more that Amy was 'in her ganger' the way the factory workers were at the beginning of the episode. I think the gangers pick up the personality of the individual who is using them, duplicating that person but when they are in the 'same suit' they are essentially the same person (but both people- except there is not a 'both'). It's when the connection is cut that both continue to have sentience, except now there are two. So the Amy who was in the TARDIS was real Amy's mind, acting through her ganger.
The doctor's action at the end… wow. I like your term "Moral Continuity"- that's a great term! I think I'm going to steal it and file it away for future use. The doctor seemed especially dark in this ep, and just like Cleaves, his ganger seemed more 'human' (or humane?) than the original. But we've seen the doctor go dark before- he has a dark side that he FIGHTS every day. Amy's Choice last season reinforced this. He is always fighting the battle between good and evil, but in his own soul.
Either Amy's Ganger was a future version, made after Cleaves and the other ganger-dude told their story, leading the manufacturer to change their tech so the gangers really were just "suits" for the humans to wear– OR– the doctor did a terrible thing to rescue Amy. We know he can do that. He was preparing to kill the Star Whale, humanely, in order to save the humans. He was furious about it, but he was going to do it. He's attempted genocide a number of times (seeingly effectively against his own people) in order to save the universe (and for this he is looking for forgiveness, still- so it does eat at him, terribly).
He melted the ganger, but completely and quickly, to save Amy. He did something morally wrong, in his own view, to save someone he cared about. We're dancing dangerously close to the Time Lord Victorious again. I wonder what effect this will have on the doctor.
Of course, if the Amy ganger was different, and not life as the others were/are, then it's a different story.
But the whole story, both eps, were building up the idea that the gangers were people- and the "almost people" were both humans and gangers, and both had to learn to be more human. So to have him blow away ganger Amy at the end– THAT blew me away. Majorly.
I also think we saw three doctors in this story. We had original, ganger, and then when original was first going out to find his TARDIS, in last week's ep, we saw him leave and then appear in the flesh room and zap the flesh AGAIN with the sonic. Was that the same Doctor who we saw immediately after find the sinking TARDIS and burn his feet? Or was that, as in the Angel Eps last year, a future doctor coming in to carry out a plan?
This incarnation of the doctor is very crafty and a bit like Doc 7 in that way. He's manipulative. He is basically good, still, but his dark side manifests with shades of what made the Time Lord Victorious. I truly am boggled by this episode.
Several things I LOVED- the ganger doc going thru the regenerations! LOVED IT! I caught Tom Baker's voice but missed Tennant's voice- possibly because Smith uses very similar inflections when speaking. I caught lines from One, two, three, and four.
I also loved that the notion of both being the doctor was addressed, and in depth, with the companion's view and lack of original acceptance (add the irony that she herself was a ganger). This is one thing I felt missing from Journey's End… I assume Rose (and the viewers!) were left saying "huh? Did you just leave me with a COPY?" I loved seeing Amy work through this, and I felt it sad we never saw Rose do the same. I also really loved the switcheroo the doctors pulled- because then the viewers could also see, as Amy saw, that these were the same man. I really thought the violent Doc who grabbed Amy was the ganger, and thus I figured he really IS different from the doctor and evil etc. Just what Moffat wanted me to think.
And Rory is still awesomeness. He's a better man than the doctor, and each episode shows this more. I do now understand why the doctor asked rory if he remembered being an Auton. He was wondering if Amy would remember being a ganger.
I don't have a problem with the word "rapey" – used it since it was more concise, and rather accurate.
My issue with objecting to this sort of story on the grounds of 'family show' is that, as you pointed out, it's comparative to rape. Which happens in real life, and does need to be addressed. I don't like the idea that parents should shy away from explaining important issues early on. I get that it's hard to explain in an age-appropriate manner, but I think people use the same sort of argument to object to any sort of sexuality on family television.
That's very true. Done right, it would be a great moment to explain to kids about choice and relationships and bodily integrity. Not all sex-related issues should be shied away from simply because of the children in the audience. My objection on the 'family show' aspect is mainly based on the initial fear that they simply won't do it with enough care. It being a family show shouldn't rule it out, but it does require an extra layer of sensitivity on an issue that's typically treated without even basic respect.
I can imagine it either being glossed over which is grossly offensive, or focussed on in a way that would be too frightening. It shouldn't be ignored as 'just another evil alien plot' but equally it shouldn't be used as 'this week's big disturbing bit'.
I don't know if I've explained that well. Oh well, let's keep our fingers crossed that baby is the result of consensual centurion/policewoman love.
No, I get it, and I agree. I don't imagine it's going to be handled with the full weight and respect it deserves, and as such, I don't expect to be happy with the pregnancy storyline, overall. Because I never am.
And to address the scenario I've been thinking of, Theories Abound
Since the Amy wearing red plaid thing is apparently because she was a ganger, we should assume she was duplicated wearing the red shirt. The likely puts it somewhere in the first episode, or before/at the beginning of the second episode. So it's my hope that Amy's been pregnant with Rory's child, and was replaced sometime after getting pregnant. So the story that I want and hope and partly expect to unfold is that aliens are messing with Amy's and Rory's child. And not simply implanting a random alien fetus into her or something.
I want your idea of her having already been pregnant and then swapped. My thought was that maybe since we didn't see them leave the UK, just get off a bus in Utah which they couldn't have travelled all the way on from the UK, that maybe while they were on the plane from the UK to the states, Amy went to the bathroom and that's when the swap occurred. Just my thought. I'm probably wrong.
I'm also hoping she was swapped post-pregnancy via Rory. If they just needed a human host for a freaky alien pregnancy it would seem ridiculously unnecessarily dangerous to steal the Doctors companion and not a random woman. I'm guessing Amy's pregnancy being influenced by TARDIS travel is part of why they kidnapped her.
Yeah, the whole TARDIS travel is the only thing I can think of for why they'd want Amy specifically. Of course, that might just me not being imaginative enough.
I am saddened that we're having to do this sort of best-cast scenario speculation.
maybe amy is not special/kidnap-worthy because she spent time in the tardis.
maybe she got pregnant with rory and they (silents or whoever kidnaped her) asumed she was pregnant with doctor.
One More THEORY ABOUND
Many people have mentioned it and I wanted to say that I do not think the Doctor knew Amy was a Ganger before they visited the factory. I think that is the main reason he pulled the expirement with the footwear. If Amy couldn't tell the difference between the two Doctors then how can the Doctor or Rory be expected to recognize a fake Amy?
If so, then he surely suspected beforehand. This would've just been confirmation. But that's besides the point — of course Amy's ganger acted just like her; it had the original mind in it, not a copy thereof like the Almost People.
Oh dear… from the comments I get the feeling that people here don't know that there _isn't_ an episode next week… Next episode will be after the summer…
Break starts after the seventh episode.
Actually, I think there's one more episode on 4 June for the mid-season finale. Then the break. 🙂
Everything I've seen says Episode 7 airs June 4th and that the show takes a break to return in September with 6 more episodes. There are 13 episodes a season, so that means we'd have to get 7 episodes before the break for there to be 6 more after the break.
Well that's cool 🙂 I like being wrong in cases like this 🙂
I hate that since Moffat took over I've been such a Debbie Downer with all my Who-watching friends. I love Eleven, I love River, I love Rory, and The Doctor's Wife is in my top three favorites episodes of Doctor Who ever. But I have not liked this past season and a half at all. This two-parter as well left me totally underwhelmed. I thought they were going somewhere really interesting with having the originals and the Gangers and how two of them could possibly coexist but then that plot point was totally abandoned by making such at least one of the pair was killed. I know Doctor Who is no stranger to plot holes and things of that nature, but this episode felt like it was wrapped up WAY too neat and tidy. Plus the whole whole "oh that clot, here's a magic little liquid that can fix it all up for you". And let's turn Jennifer into a complete horrific monster so we don't have to feel guilty about killing her. I think a few of these things could be handled a bit more elegantly. Plus if the whole factory was going to explode and there was no stopping it why did Ganger!Doctor and Cleaves have to stay to melt Jennifer? It felt like sloppy writing, just an excuse to have everything tied up in a neat little bow.
The twist with Amy was neat (and the thing about her clothing being so similar was a really great touch, I have to hand it to them) but I was not okay with him just melting Amy like that. A few people are saying that it was necessary to wake up the real Amy, which even if that's true, did he have to be so cruel about it? We've established that the Gangers experience real human thought and emotion and Ganger!Amy was clearly terrified and confused. If the Doctor had to kill her right in that moment couldn't have done it in a way that was a bit kinder?
I realize that I'm in the minority here and I really do wish I could enjoy these episodes as much as everyone else seems to. In the meantime I'm just going to keep rewatching Sherlock because with that show I find myself worshiping the altar of Moffat instead of being disappointed.
Some people have been concluding, and I tend to agree, that Ganger!Amy was NOT at all like the animated gangers. More specifically, she was not her own entity. The gangers that were animated by the storm were completely separate from their originals and so, had their own "sacred lives." On the other hand, ganger!Amy only existed because real!Amy was being kept unconscious in order to provide a psychic link that animated her ganger–much like in the very beginning of the Rebel Flesh when the originals stayed safely unconscious while their gangers went about.
Cleaves mentioned in the beginning that the flesh returns to matter after the link is broken. The *only* reason the gangers throughout the episode were able to operate on their own was because the energy from the solar storm passed through them and animated them. Assuming this sort of electrical shock has not happened to Amy's ganger, then the Doctor knows that Amy's real mind is still lying unconscious somewhere.
After discovering all this, he does not "kill" ganger!Amy–he BREAKS THE LINK. Again, it was previously established that when there is no link, the flesh returns to matter. Throughout the episode he realizes that the flesh has somewhat of a consciousness, which is why he says, "given what I've learned I'll be as humane as I can." Regardless, he is not KILLING Amy at all–the ganger is not Amy and it does not have a life of it's own–it only had her consciousness.
I hope that makes you less angry.
A++, I think you've covered it really well.
He didn't disobey his own morals! He wouldn't kill teh gangers after the storm because they had become almost HUMAN, they were ALIVE with the real people being asleep in their machines. They were like that becaus of the STORM! Rememeber, in that was NOT normal for there to be gangers while the humans they were cloned off were not asleep. They had because indepdent creatures, alive in their own right, becaus of the storm. Now keeping that in mind, normally teh human needs to be asleep, which is apparantly EXACTLY what Amy was doing in that hospital bed thing. She had been put asleep. When her ganger got destroyed (which was NOT an almost human becaus eit wasn't created during the storm) he wasn't breaking his own rules, and when it died is when she, the real Amy, woke up. He didn't kill anything, it really was just flesh.
No, he warned the factory workers BEFORE the storm hit, about the flesh, and how it was so much more than they realized. It was the first time he scanned it, and then he ripped into Cleaves for her attitude. So that pre-dated the storm.
But the episode established that "just flesh" is also sentient, what with the eyes asking "why" and the pile of melting, discarded gangers still thinking and being angry. I think the Doctor recognized that fact, since he said something like "given what we've learned, I'll try to be as humane as possible" before he zapped ganger!Amy back into Flesh. The unformatted Flesh has the beginnings of sentience and feelings, so even zapping a non-autonomous ganger is morally problematic.
In this case, though, I think breaking (and possible tracing?) the signal back to Amy, who is being kidnapped and held against her will, is the more salient issue here. I assume the Doctor tried to respect the decommissioned!Amy flesh puddle and didn't just… squeegee it up off the floor and toss it out of the TARDIS or something.
But that's just me and my moral code – I definitely get why people are bothered by what the Doctor did regardless of circumstance.
hehe, you had me giggling with the squeegee off the floor bit. Awesome mental picture! 😀
I think there's some spelling mistakes in my last comment, sorry about that. I hope the point I was trying to make came across though. And yes I agree about the final Ganger part when she was a full moster, that was SO FREAKIN' COOL.
I don't think it's Poor Rory, because ganger Amy was real Amy, just as Auton Rory was real Rory. Rory would get this in a way others would not. Especially this ganger, who had never been disconnected from the mind that controlled her. IOW, there was so "split'' in the person… it was one Amy (albiet in the ganger) from the start.
I know that, but poor Rory anyway because he has no idea where his wife is and didn't know she was missing in the first place!
Also, watching your wife melt is creepy.
And he has to back away from her and trust the Doctor when she's terrified and clearly doesn't want him to. When she's going into labor.
The brain melting that must be going on with Rorinicus Pondicus right after that scene cut.
Did anyone else think discarded flesh just looked like a pile of Cassandras?
I was also slightly reminded of the Abzorbaloff!
Alright many theories here, so buckle in.
1. The Doctor in this episode is older than he says he is, so he already knows how this shit ends and that she’s preggers and came back to see how the Flesh works so he could save her.
2. Amy was never in this series. She was abducted some time between Big Bang 2 and DotM.
3. Eyepatch Lady is an older River Song. If you look close, it looks like her but with more makeup, heavier, and older.
4. More than two sonics = more than two Doctors.
5. The Doctor who flew off at the end isn’t the real Doctor but a Flesh.
6. That brief moment in DotM when Rory can hear Amy through the recorder thing wasn’t Amy being captured by the Silence but real Amy in the prison/birth room place freaking out because she was conscious for once.
7. When the Silence said, “You have been here longer than you know.” in DotM, they had some hand in capturing her for Eyepatch Lady. They’re working for Eyepatch Lady.
8. This one is a bit far-fetched, but just stay with me: Amy is being used to repopulate Gallifrey. The little girl at the end of DotM is what came of that.
9. Just because I rewatched the entire series up to this episode with my friend last night: in DotM, the little girl is River’s, but it would make sense that Amy had a picture with her because they’re friends.
In response to number 3) River Song dies in The Forest of the Dead…
The only way I can see this being true is if the Doctor goes back to meet River when she's younger and changes her around, but that would be a paradox, because none of it would have happened….IDK, knowing Moffat this whole series is one giant paradox.
I forgot that River died. It's probably one giant paradox.
I thought eyepatch lady looked like River Song as well but I wouldn't exactly say older since we have met the oldest River Song.
EDIT: Maybe it is her EVIL TWIN!
5. The Doctor who flew off at the end isn't the real Doctor but a Flesh.
OH MY GOD THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING. NO, REALLY. BECAUSE THE TARDIS STABILIZES THEM AND NOW THEY'RE ACTUAL PEOPLE/TIMELORDS AND THAT WOULD EXPLAIN THE ~REGENERATION~ AND OH MY GOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDD
I'll try and keep the spoilers to a minimum here but if you want none then just go watch Remembrance of the Daleks for it is awesome and easily Seven's best story (and, IMO, an all-time classic)
Seven was… well let's just ignore his first season as it was, frankly, bloody awful and features Mel and focus on his last two seasons. The short version is this was a Doctor who was no longer a passive participant in events. He didn't just bounce aimlessly from adventure to adventure, he was actively seeking out threats to the universe and putting in place VERY long term plans to remove said threats. There were also HEAVY hints that he was going to be shown to be far more than just another timelord but the series was put on hiatus before they got to the resolution (short version: along with Omega and Rassilon he would have been the third founding member of timelord society albeit with a whole load of crazy bananas explanation tacked on). He's also not above messing with his companion, Ace, to the point he manipluates her into, effectively, causing her own birth and deliberately takes her to a location in the past that traumatised her mentally in her present to see what caused that location to be so fraked up WITHOUT TELLING HER!
There were also subtle hints he wasn't above using his mental abilities in a pretty aggressive way. One notable instance had him walking up to point blank range with a sniper ordering him to pull the trigger. The sniper doesn't know why he can't and the dialogue suggests it's because he can't kill up close and personal but this doesn't entirely tie in with the look on the Doctor's face and the way the scene is acted. It's also not the only time something like that happens in his episodes.
This all gets cranked up in the extended universe and he really gets the chance to flex his muscles to the point that he gets referred to as Time's Champion… and it's a title that's well and truly earned. One brief example, in a Big Finish Audio Production he is forced to work for the Daleks and does so for YEARS. Why? Because he not only wanted to kill them but to also cure the inhabitants of the planet.
*deliberately takes her to a location in the past that traumatised her mentally in her present to see what caused that location to be so fraked up WITHOUT TELLING HER!*
Oh god! The house! The Perivale house! Thanks for bringing that memory from where I buried it when I was eight!
I was quite shocked that he simply zaps Ganger Amy back into pure Flesh.
This is what I was wondering as well. He stated that Flesh can feel and have a right to live just as much as humans (Jennifer said that they feel their death), but then he sonicked Amy's Ganger into a pool of dematerialised flesh in order to cut the psichic link between them and possibly make her ready for the delivery. Still, that was extremely cruel to the poor Flesh that was only following the mind of her breeder. How much more unfeeling can the Doctor become?
And the big exciting question now; how many weeks without Amy's presence, with only Rory as a companion, will we be enjoying from now on? I hope to at least get more than 2 episodes without Amy as a companion. I'm itching to see just how well the Doctor and Rory really get along. =)
Oooh, Doctor/Rory would be a very interesting dynamic, I hadn't thought of that 🙂
I'll say this before everything else!
a) Amy's Ganger seemed not to be quite like the gangers we saw in this episodes, rather than a.. body for Amy's consciousness. So that's why I think he had no problem zapping her at the end (that sounds awful, but. yeah).
b) About knowing to tell her to breathe and such, I suppose he calculated the months? Ever since she told him she thought she was pregnant and he started getting worried about it, he sort of must have kept count. But also, he seems to know more about patch-eyed lady, given his reaction when ganger!Amy saw her.
b) There may have been more to the TARDIS's pregnancy scan than we saw — something to the effect of "She's either not pregnant or 36 weeks pregnant… She's either not pregnant or 39 weeks pregnant…" If so, like I said, he was cutting it awfully close. What if she'd gone into labor when they were in the castle? Would he have dispelled the ganger, given Rory a hurried explanation, and postponed the rescue mission to after the miners were safe?
Yeah, I think that might just be the case, it would make sense!
And yeah, he was, but I guess he didn't expect *all of that* happening. Not that it would have helped if Amy did go into labor during the whole thing, maybe he would've taken them aside? And perhaps he wouldn't have been sure by then if it was safe to zap ganger!Amy or not.
Thaaankfully, the timing was just. right.
The TARDIS had to have been telling him more than "positive." It must have been telling him how far along she was, especially considering she's in a different time period.
" I suppose he calculated the months? "
Possible, but right down to the day? Even due dates are just an estimate.
I like the idea above that the TARDIS helped calculate the date with every pregnancy test he did to Amy.
I assume he has tech that can signal pretty accurately when labor is coming. There are changes to the placenta and hormonal changes. He doesn't have one of those wheel charts that estimates a due date. Besides they are travelling in time and space and actual 'dates' wouldn't mean much. It does explain why he kept scanning.
Amazing he has the tech to undo clots and figure pregnancy down to the minute, but can't help a guy who is drowning. Go figure. lol
Benefit of the doubt: He stocked up after Rory's (first in-TARDIS) brush with death?
The Doctor still learns!
I'm unfamiliar with past Doctors; can someone place all of Ganger!Doctor's babbling? I was listening for anything I recognized, and I didn't hear anything from Nine or Ten.
"Hello, I'm the Doctor" is arguably ten, though I can't remember if they used a recording or if Matt just did an impression.
"One day we'll go back" was Matt doing one of One's lines, possibly from the first episode? No, that's not right… but definitely a line from One's early days.
"Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" is considered a catchphrase of Three's (even though he only said it once) and has thus been since said by a few Doctors (you may remember Ten saying it once or twice).
"Would you like a jelly baby?" is a classic line from Four- and they used a recording, but I'm not sure if Tom Baker did it specifically for this episode or they just snatched it from classic who.
Anndddd, that's all I can think of… was there any more?
"Hello, I'm the doctor" is Tennant's voice. Matt did doctor 1 with the bit about coming back, the line was from the ep where he leaves Susan but promises to come back. And yes, three, and four with Tom Baker's voice! I thought there was a line from Two in there as well, but now I forget and will have to listen again.
In the episode of Doctor Who Confidential, they explain that Ganger!Amy was different than the other Gangers in the episode. She worked how Gangers were intended to work – as an extension of the original person's mind. Remember in The Rebel Flesh the miners had those rigs they were unconscious in while controlling their Gangers? And then the solar storm made their Gangers independent. I'm not sure why the storm didn't affect Ganger!Amy the same way, though – maybe because she wasn't in the "early stages"? Or perhaps because her body wasn't physically there?
I'm kind of bummed at this reveal, tough, because I really did not want Amy to be pregnant. I don't like when women's arcs revolve around the state of their uterus or their marital status, and DW is usually pretty good at avoiding this kind of storytelling. It's just disappointing to me that Amy's whole story arc this season (or half season, really) is getting pregnant, getting kidnapped, and surprise! having a baby. It reminds me of Scully's alien pregnancy and Fauxlivia's accelerated pregnancy, both of which stripped those strong, smart women of all agency involving their pregnancies and their bodies. It makes me sad that Amy's story is going the same way.
That said, there is a silver lining to this, which is that Rory is getting a GREAT arc this season. I loved him in this two-parter, first sympathizing with the Gangers and then the scene where he chose to trust the Doctor and step away from Amy (which Rory from last season would never have done). Having seen the trailer for next week, I am SO EXCITED for all things Rory. (Is that spoilery? Can we discuss the trailer or the promo pics the BBC released? Because I really want to post one, but I can't remember if that's allowed.)
I am feeling this comment about sci-fi pregnancies. How awesome would it have been if the big reveal re: Amy had just been whoops; false alarm! and totally a misdirect but sadly I figured that this was not going to happen.
Keep in mind we've yet to see anything Amy does after giving birth, and I don't think she's going to be pleased either with having been, as you said, stripped of agency. And once she's had time to piece things together and go from "frightened" to "angry," well, I wouldn't want to be in Amy Pond's way under those circumstances. Not even from Eye Patch Lady's position of apparent safety behind that sliding panel.
True! And I'm not saying that like, everything is ruined forever because of this, but just that I hate this surprise/alien pregnancy trope for those reasons. And in my other examples of Scully and Fauxlivia, they were kind of lucky in that they were both ready/wanting to have children. Amy JUST became okay with the idea of getting married and was probably still getting accustomed to that kind of commitment at the beginning of the season. I absolutely don't think that she was actively trying to get pregnant, and I think she would have freaked out a lot more if she hadn't been all, "LOL NOT PREGGERS, WHOOPS. GOOD THING BECAUSE WHAT IF THE BABY HAD A TIME HEAD?" Amy deflects her fear most of the time, and I don't think she would have been a-okay with being pregnant had she known this whole time.
I agree, especially when the arc last season revolved around her wedding.
A- I thought the kid's name was Adam? I just rewatched the episode with my mom (who'd only seen episodes 1 and 2 of this series until yesterday and today when I got her caught up) and I swear Ganger!Jimmy says "Happy Birthday Adam"
B- I posted this earlier today in the liveblog post, but wanted to repost it here.
In the 'Impossible Astronaut' that Silent in the bathroom tells Amy to tell the Doctor what he must to know and what he should never know. At the time we probably thought it meant his death, but what if they it meant:
Must know = Amy's Pregnant
Never know = She's a ganger
But Amy only gets as far as telling the Doctor that she's pregnant and then later says she's not, just thought she was (who knows, maybe during the 3 months we didn't see she had time to pee on a stick) but that worries the Doctor so he does the scan of her and discovers Schroedinger's Pregnancy which eventually leads him to "This isn't really Amy".
I'm probably wrong, but it was a thought I had none the less and wanted to share.
C- Also, I said this earlier, but wanted to restate it:
Again Theories Abound
I think maybe Amy was switched on the plan between the UK and Utah. She probably went to the bathroom while on the plan and that was when the switch was made. At least that's what I'm thinking until Moffat tells us otherwise.
I wonder if she was switched in the scene in the bathroom. Hmm. I assumed "must never know" was that they saw the doctor's death. In fact I thought the doctor had figured it out already but given ganger doc didn't know, I suppose he was surprised by the info. He might take this even more poorly as 11 than as Ten (think how freaked out he got about the knock four times then).
I think River lies- she's lying a number of times to prevent 'spoilers'.
Hello everyone, this is my first comment here.
So I'm not sure what's going on either but I predict that the part at the very start of the season where the Doctor is showing up in random films in Rory and Amy's flat is going to eventually be hugely important. I think there's some kind of clever timey-wimey stuff going on there.
I also think the fact that the Doctor doesn't try to find the little girl at the end of Day of The Moon may be important. I thought at the time that it was a little out of character for him to invest so much time attempting to save her and then just blithely abandon her. Yes, he likes to run away but it seemed a little 'off'. I think he's already figured out that something is badly wrong – has he already seen the weird scans of Amy when he says 'let's go and have adventures'?
Of course, I'm still waiting for a payoff on the duck pool that doesn't contain ducks, so I may be reading too much into all this.
I think he doesn't move to save the girl because he's already figured out a good deal of it, and also has at least a strong idea of what's up with Amy. He was stalling… they went on other adventures because he was stalling until the baby was born.
I'm going to go completely against the grain here and say what's been running through my head ever since last week's episode, something nobody else has said yet:
I want a ganger. Like…. so much I cannot even.
No? Just me? Okay then, as you were….
ME TOO OH MY GOD.
I'm entertaining the thought that Amy was taken sometime during Day of the Moon. At the end of The Impossible Astronaut, she tells the Doctor she's pregnant, but at the end of Day of the Moon she says she isn't anymore… fleshy fleshy flesh, anyone?
I'm just going to talk about a few things i liked because my brain is too fuzzy to formulate something intelligible about the episode as a whole.
I love every scene with the Doctor and his Ganger. How the hell does Matt Smith manage to have so much chemistry WITH HIMSELF?! His charisma knows no bounds! 😉
I love the fact that Amy is fooled into thinking that Ganger!Doctor is 'HER Doctor'. Amy's always been so sure of her "Raggedy Doctor", even when she was a child and everyone said he didn't exist, but she still believed in him. No matter how close the Doctor and his companions get, they never really know him completely, and neither do we.
The cliffhanger was incredible and i may have shouted "HOLY SHIT!" at my TV, which is always a good sign! I was expecting a cliffhanger because of what Matt Smith said on the One Show last week, but i thought Amy was going to be kidnapped. The last thing i expected was a reveal of a Ganger!Amy and a pregnant original Amy trapped in some sort of birthing tube. Well played Moff/Graham, you clever, clever bastards!
"I was quite shocked that he simply zaps Ganger Amy back into pure Flesh." "The Doctor chose to disobey his own moral code for some important reason."
On a first watch that moment was so horribly shocking to me. I thought "what?! The Doctor would never do that to Amy, even if she wasn't the original Amy." But now i've had time to think about it, it think he had to melt Ganger!Amy to wake up the original Amy. I'm basing that judgement on original Amy's reaction, she looked pretty fucking shocked at being nine months pregnant! So i'm guessing she's been asleep or unconscious for the entire duration of her pregnancy. Now that the Doctor has seen the beginnings of the Gangers he's got enough information to know what he's dealing with so it was finally time to bring back original Amy and the only way to do that was to kill Ganger!Amy, he had no choice. I prefer to think of it that way because the thought of the Doctor killing Ganger!Amy because he was angry or upset makes me really uncomfortable.
I guessed about three weeks ago that eye patch lady was "some sort of space midwife…..with an eye patch". I love it when i'm right! 😀
I think the pregnant/not pregnant Amy, regenerating little girl and the Doctor dying storylines are the most interesting and exciting series arcs we've ever had.
I loved the cliffhanger but without it the episode was just a bit 'meh'. Though i think i'll like these last two episodes a lot more once all the mysteries have been resolved.
I think it was more the doctor was angry and upset because 1) someone took Amy, and 2) he's angry and upset at what he 'has' to do and why he 'has' to do it. Not that he does it because he's angry and upset.
THEORIES ABOUND (I don't know how to do the bold thingy)
This is my head cannon for Amy's pregnancy.
Amy is pregnant by the Doctor (but no sex was invloved…there better not be any sex between them or i'll kick the Moff's arse!). I really can't see anyone wanting Amy and Rory's normal, human (and completely awesome) baby, so the child must be something…else. River said something about there being loads of people out there who would want to get their hands on a sample of the Doctor's DNA. So i think whoever has Amy has somehow got a tissue sample from the Doctor (or another type of sample that is needed to make a baby 😉 though how they would have got THAT sample i have no idea!), they did some scientific shit to create an embryo that has half Amy's DNA and half the Doctor's, then they impregnated original Amy with the embryo and BAM bun in the oven.
Whoever did it was basically trying to create a new half Time Lord who would turn out to be the little girl at the end of Day of the Moon, which would explain her regeneration abilities and the fact that the photo of Amy holding a baby was in the little girls bedroom.
So this would be the sequence of events:
Original Amy (who wouldn't be pregnant at this point) was taken before series 6 or perhaps somewhere in the beginning of The Impossible Astronaught, or maybe even during series 5. Whoever took original Amy made a copy of her and put Ganger!Amy straight back from where original Amy was taken from, they'd probably need some form of time travel to do that as people would realise Amy was missing if she was gone for too long, using The Lodger TARDIS perhaps?
A sample of the Doctor's DNA was taken, how, where, when, IDK.
An embryo is created.
Original Amy is impregnated with the embryo and becomes pregnant.
Ganger!Amy feels sick and has stomach aches and thinks she's pregnant, which is an echo of what original Amy is feeling.
Ganger!Amy tells the Doctor she's pregnant.
Ganger!Amy realises she isn't pregnant, maybe she did a test while she was on the run from the Silence.
Ganger!Amy tells the Doctor she was wrong and she isn't pregnant.
The Doctor gets the TARDIS to scan Ganger!Amy but because her and original Amy have the same DNA the TARDIS is scanning them both at the same time which would give the negative and positve reading, as one IS pregnant and one ISN'T.
Original Amy has been in the tube thing for nine months and has gone into labour. (Either Ganger!Amy has been feeling the baby kicking in original Amy's stomach which Ganger!Amy mistook for stomach aches, or there's some time shifting shit going on and original!Amy has been in labour throughout most of series 6 and Ganger!Amy has been feeling original Amy's contractions and mistook those for stomach aches.)
The Doctor melts Ganger!Amy.
Original Amy wakes up to see she is pregnant and in labour.
Vicki's brain explodes.
I hope that made some sort of sense.
Oh I really hope that's not true. No reflection on you at all (I know this is just a theory), but if that is what they've done, I'll be so disturbed. I'd much rather the Doctor and Amy had a cheeky shag (weird as that would be) than Amy being knocked out and impregnated with his DNA or whatever. That's just so grim. 🙁
Well, Rory had been eaten by the crack. So if he is River's father, and therefore part of her timeline, she would have forgotten him unless she made a specific effort to remember – much like how Amy's parents were eaten and she couldn't remember her own father.
I think it was between 1 and 2, because it's early in 2 that Amy tells the Doctor she's "all better."
I don't know if anybody else has mentioned this yet, but the Doctor essentially had to melt ganger!Amy because she is entirely dependent on real!Amy being out of it. Like how the original workers had to be in harnesses for the ganger!versions of them to walk around. So, unfortunately- she did have to get melted.
And I just forgot post this image- top fave scene between the two Elevens:
OMG YES, I just love how his expression goes from "ahaha, that was rather brilliant!" to stifling it with MATURE, SRS BSNS!face. I had completely missed it while first watching because their banter was so fast-paced.
I totally want to see that happening in a future episode.
I love the two doctors together. I hope we get to see more than one interacting again. And if not, there's always fanfic <3
i do love him, i really do. Getting a twin improved everything by at least 905 times.
I have to admit, I've been kind of surprised by how many people didn't get the Amy!Ganger situation.
The gangers they were using at the beginning of the episode were nothing more than remote-controlled copies of the people. The flesh seems to have some minor sentience of its own, but the reason it was so important to keep the Gangers alive was because they had imprinted on people and developed full sentience. Amy!Ganger was a more developed version of the Flesh, a remote-controlled copy of Amy. It had no sentience other than the minor sentience of the Flesh, which it would retain even once melted. Blocking the signal stopped it from receiving the signal that it used to take on Amy's form and that was essentially Amy's brain inhabiting the Flesh. It returned Amy to her own body, that's all.
Ditto to everything, especially your first line.
Oh, so it was just a little sentient. That makes it okay to rip its life away from it.
I'm not actually sure that all he did was disrupt the signal, either, because ganger!Doctor did something really similar-looking with the sonic that melted fully imprinted, sentient Flesh in pretty much exactly the same way. If they were using different settings/doing different things, that really kind of needed to be explained.
Late to the party – but I'm here finally!
First off all – and I think it was here – someone had a theory about a Ganger-version of Amy. I pretty much shrugged it off as wild mass speculation. But when I saw the ending to this episode, my second thought (after my initial flurry of "GANGER!AMY WHAT THE HOLY FLYING HELL IS THIS???") was that I needed to award that person the entire internet. Whoever that was – please stand up to collect your reward!
I'll be honest – the majority of the episode was forgettable to me (other than the Doctor and Ganger!Doctor's interactions – that stuff was pure magic and made me love Matt Smith even more, if that's even possible). When I sat down to write my review for my blog, I could barely remember any of the miners' names and I found that I just didn't care. The "Moral of the Story" was too heavy-handed and they overdid it with the "Gangers Are People Too!" message. That's why some people are in a lather over the Doctor melting Ganger!Amy. The writers basically shot themselves in the foot with that one and they didn't need to (be_themoon went into the reason why earlier in the thread and I really don't need to rehash it).
But once I got to the ending, I had to go back and rewatch it for all the parts with the Doctor figuring out the Flesh and it was just mind-numbingly brilliant. I cannot wait for next week!
Of course, then we'll have the HUGE CLIFFHANGER for the rest of the summer…
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I know I posted that theory on the Rebel Flesh review, but I think a number of people said pretty much the same thing. We are all ~~psychics~~.
Except if we really were, we'd know what was going to happen next week. D:
Perfect end .gif, bless you Sheldon and Evil Wil Wheaton.
"He predicted the phone call/hologram for Billy," – He's the one who placed that phone call. He explained that he made it and set it for a delay ealier in the episode.
"he kept telling Amy to breathe and “only push when she says to,”" – He was monitoring the connection with the real Amy Pond who was still connected to her Ganger. If he was monitoring the signals that the real Amy Pond was sending then wouldn't he be able to detect that she was in labor?
"and HOW THE FUCK DID HE KNOW THAT GANGER JIMMY WOULD BRING HIS SON A RED BALLOON." – Didn't he just give those balloons to Jimmy before dropping him off with his son? Am I mixing up the order of that or did he not bring out the balloon for him and then the reunion occurred?
did no one else think that the whole flesh doctor speaking with previous doctor voices was disturbing? no? just me? alright then….
MarkWatchers, I love you all and your theories are making my head hurt more.
I'm choosing just to embrace the having-no-idea-what-is-happening. But I am enjoying reading 🙂
I have decided that I will not call us MarkWatchers again….because that makes us sound a bit like stalkers :/
It is not entirely inaccurate, to a point 😛
If Amy has been a Ganger for a long time, when was she kidnapped?
Well, The Silence kidnapped her at the beginning of the season. Maybe they never let her go? (Or maybe it happened before season 6 I DON'T KNOW). Maybe there was a point before the orphanage that she encountered them and we just haven't seen it yet because she "forgot." Didn't the Silence tell Amy that they needed her to "bring the Silence into the world" or something though? That's a creepy thought omg. 😐
he kept telling Amy to breathe and “only push when she says to"
Wasn't that Ganger!Doctor that told her that? I might have to watch that part again, but I'm pretty sure it was…
Whatever this all means will be totally crystal clear by the end of the season I'm sure, that's usually how this show works lol
I also have no idea HOW we're all going to survive for this hiatus thing they're doing after the next episode; I've heard it's even MORE mindblowing than this episode too, HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE.
Something that's bothering me: Jimmy is wearing his wedding ring on a cord around his neck and the ganger isn't – this is specifically noted in-show because original Jimmy passes it on to his ganger upon his death. But wouldn't that count as clothing? If it can replicate the fibrous and metallic parts of garments, why not a cord and a metal band? And if it can't replicate that, then why are there so many screwdrivers flying around?
Oooh, I also just noticed that after the Doctor's "she's very good at sarcasm" line at the start of the episode BOTH Doctors instruct Amy to "BREATHE". So he was definitely aware both that she was a ganger and very pregnant before coming to the island….
also, after the choking gas, Amy is clutching her stomach saying "I think I coughed so hard I pulled a muscle or something" … the start of her contractions?
I swear, every time Amy is in some sort of pain or anguish, she clutches her stomach. I feel like it's almost instinctive.
okay, I need to get some THEORIES ABOUND out of me and down in words before my brain becomes mush.
So, I've been trying to get into Moffat's head, because, well, that's a normal hobby to have, and trying to figure out how this might be going. Here's my ideas:
1. Ganger!Doctor is a red herring. We're supposd to think that this Ganger or another one are who we saw die in TIA, and maybe even the Doctor himself believes this at this point. I think what we actually saw is the Doctor, dying, but it's been orchestrated, Dumbledore-style, so someone (The Silence?) thinks he's dead. Only as part of his 200-year plan, he's actually set up (by way of invitations, or something else) a chain of events that we're seeing played out through this series, which will ultimately result in his fate changing, paradoxically, into not dying and saving the day.
I can't decide whether the Doctor we saw in the last couple of episodes has relived all this before (seems unlikely, but he was very in-control) or more that his future-self has left clues along the way to let him know about a few things, like the convenient brain medicine. But I do think the Doctor himself has been one of the pawns in his own long game, and he's slowly starting to realise it. Perhaps he thinks he's fighting against some unseen evil when in fact he himself has orchestrated the whole thing.
2. Timelord baby is a red herring. We're meant to assume it's Amy's, but I'm convinced now River will be Amy's child, and the child we saw in DotM was River's child, perhaps the Doctor's child as well. Reasons being that River is some crazy gun-toting bad-ass, which gives me the impression of someone being trained and used, at least as a youngster. Someone has taught her to fly a TARDIS as well. This would lead to the child in the astronaut suit killing the Doctor, perhaps to take his regenration power and save her life due to something or other.
3. Either the Silence or Eyepatch will turn out to be good, and the Doctor made a huge mistake in slaughtering the Silence in DotM. Just a hunch really, but The Silence did tell Amy to tell the Doctor she was pregnant, thus triggering the rescue. It did seem a bit easy to rescue her, but perhaps that is because they wanted the Ganger back in the Doctor's hands to buy themselves some time.
EYEPATCH THEORY / QUESTION ABOUND: Did anyone else pick up on the fact that she did not seem surprised to see Amy awake at the end? Considering she's been in a controlled coma for I'm guessing a long time, wouldn't it be strange to see her awake, unless she was waiting for the Doctor to sever the link to allow the birth to take place?
Ok, I feel a bit better now after getting that out. Love this show.
Theories abound about your theories!
I like the idea of his future self leaving clues. He was doing all those wacky things that Amy and Rory picked up on- -what if those waves through history were for his past self somehow? He did seem to know a lot before he went into the factory, and yet he also didn't know a lot. Interesting theory! I also agree with your number two- I am convinced also as to the identity of the baby, and the regen bit is due to being conceived on the TARDIS, or by someone who experienced so much TARDIS radiation. I also wonder about the Silents. Hmmm.
Part of me also wonders if there are three doctors, like three Jens, and we have been dealing with a duplicate doctor for awhile? Not sure why yet- I was so surprised at how he arranged the slaughter of the Silents- it did not seem like him. And he didn't 'melt' because he's future flesh tech? Ow, my head hurts.
Hurts doesn't it!
I've decided to stop my brain going Timehead I'm going to sit back and let Moffatt astound me on Saturday, seeing as we'll have months of brainmelting to deal with after Saturday night!
Also, on this episode more specifically, I was convinced that we were going to see Cybermen. The BBC announcer before the show said something about facing a monster of their own making, and then the Doctors had that Cybermat speech OUT OF NOWHERE, while at the same time the gangers banging on the door was sounding VERY cyberman-like (listen back, it's uncanny). And then I remembered the zappy electric thing used in the The Rebel Flesh and it all starting seeming like an origin story to me, complete with comments about human pain and weakness, brain clots etc.
Funny how Who monsters can be so linked in, considering I was thinking Sontarans last week!
I feel more than a little uncomfortable with the places this show is beginning to go to, if I'm honest. For show meant to be a family show, its getting a little too close to the line in my opinion.
I guessed there were two Amys or two Amy-lifetimes or whatever, although I didn't figure her to be a Ganger, even with these episodes (you're right Mark, that should have been obvious!) but I was so, so hoping there would be no real pregnancy. Admittedly I'm a little sensitive about pregnancy at the moment for personal reasons, but I am concerned at how a show like this will handle Amys story now. Do they understand the potential trauma of waking up and being in labour? Its frightening enough when you're prepared for birth to feel your body literally take over, but for a frightened, captured, girl all alone? Who hasn't had 9 months to prepare herself? THAT, to me, is the biggest headfuck Who have gone for in all the episodes I've seen.
I'm sure I'm just being sensitive as I say, and am over-thinking this, but I can't shake the bad feelings this episodes end dropped on me. I kind of wish I had spoiled myself with this.
You are far from alone. As much as I'm enjoying the puzzle Moffat has presented, I and many others here on Mark Watches are disturbed and very, very wary. Odd as at may sound, I've enjoyed the plot line whilst also being horrified by it and deeply worried about where it will go.
Someone (sorry I can't remember your name!) mentioned Twilight Sleep a few episodes past, which was common for childbirth in the 50s-60s in the US and fell out of favor because it completely dissociated the mother from the birthing experience and had depressant effects on the infant. What's happening to Amy seems very similar, only to a greater extent – the mother can't remember the entire pregnancy or, but for the Doctor's intervention in this episode, birth. It's really, really fucked up and Moffat is going to have to try damn hard not to make this another awful sci fi pregnancy – if it's even redeemable at this point.
I found the entire pregnancy aspect very creepy just as a woman, not having any personal pregnancy experience or anything. You aren't being overly sensitive or over-thinking it, it's just an upsetting idea. 🙁
That was me who mentioned Twilight Sleep. I'm glad someone was reading 😛 I thought maybe my theory was just completely insane but … apparently not D:
I've been wondering about how much Eye Patch Lady (known as EPL henceforth) knows about Amy's ganger situation. The first time we see her, EPL says "No, I think she's just dreaming." If EPL knows Amy is operating a duplicate of herself, why would she think Amy was dreaming? Unless "dreaming" is a euphemism for Amy's ganger life. The second time we see EPL she says "It's fine. You're doing just fine." which seemingly addresses Amy, possibly as though she were awake, and may be EPL trying to calm Amy and soothe her back to sleep.
So basically: the first time ganger!Amy sees EPL, GAmy is awake in the orphanage and EPL acts as though real Amy is asleep. The next time GAmy sees EPL it is immediately after GAmy waking up on board the pirate ship while still groggy/semi-conscious. So I wonder if GAmy "dreams" about being pregnant in a white tube (actually waking up, freaking out, and needing to be calmed by EPL) and original Amy, usually sedated, is "dreaming" everything that happens with the Doctor as her ganger self.
Eye Patch Lady has no idea what's going on with Amy and her apparent general lack of consciousness, in which case she is a TERRIBLE MIDWIFE.
I'd think locking patients up in tubes and only checking on them through a hatch generally detaches you from what is going on with them generally 😛
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Alas for screened comments. 🙁
…I now cannot remember what I've already said. *facepalm*
I SHALL RETURN LATER, THEN.
You have no idea how proud i am that i predicted this almost perfectly..
I did think she had been cloned when the silence took her however, and that it was the silence that had the original Amy, but its clear she's been gone much much longer.
But then when was she cloned?
Must re-watch this season so far this week.
Saturday cannot come soon enough
This (and last) week's fan art:
Well, more like "stuff that could happen maybe"
Screwdriver's ganger-doctor thought patterns (remember what Doctor 1 said before he left? "you COULD survive") ends up in the library with thought-patterns screwdriver'd River. A doctor-ducplicate for every romantic companion! There's enough of him to go arouuunnnd, ladieeessss.
That would be a totally cute ending 🙂
Wait! That's it! Ganger Doctor's thought patterns are put into the library, and he spends 200 years there with River, and figures out how to get them out. Then he takes the place of the real doctor and sacrifices himself in Utah. Meanwhile the newly restored River ends up with the real Doctor for the rest of the series this fall.
ok, caveat: i just took plan b
and then i watched this episode
AND I HAVE NEVER BEEN MORE AFRAID OF BEING PREGNANT THAN SINCE I WATCHED [i]INSIDE[/i]
HOLY SHIT, THIS IS THE WORST 🙁
I wish somebody would write a story where a male character got pregnant via anal probe a la Junior. I mean it would probably be terrible but I don't really care. Or even a female pregnancy storyline where the girl succeeded in getting rid of it in time, but I'm not holding my breath.
I really wish this storyline had been a one parter and the Gaiman ep had been two. Outside of the Doctor/Doctor/ganger!Amy chemistry I reeeeally didn't care about the rest of the plot, especially I couldn't bring myself to care about any of the other characters(besides the kid who was excellent) and part 1 was a really hard slog. I don't know if I should blame the director or the script or both. Elaborate mythologies and mysteries are great and everything and I still have no idea if I can say if this one is any good or not, but even if it's totally brilliant if I'm not entertained by the subplots in the meantime I really don't GAF and I'm getting to that point.
It would be nice to have a "violation of my body leading to life potential" storyline that doesn't come tied up with "how to be female" issues, wouldn't it? :/ :\
This is one of the episodes that I wasn't totally thrilled with… but I honestly think that's because it's full of clues that won't make sense until the end of the season. It's a piece of the puzzle, but right now it just looks like a random squiggly shape.
Okay. I just have to say that the EyePatchLady saying "Puuuuush" the way she did CREEPED ME THE FUCK OUT.
Ultra creep in one word.
I watched it for the fourth time. This one takes multiple viewings to even begin to figure out. I did 'get' finally why the doctor was so freaked out and violent with Amy, and why ganger Jen was such a whacko. Same reason for both.
The doctor, the original, picked up psychically the distress of the Flesh. That was the point that underscored the flesh was sentient, even before the solar storm (it spoke of the gangers going to work knowing they'd be decommissioned). He was saying WHY! WHY! both as a new ganger and as the original picking up the distress of the flesh. it overwhelmed him when he heard the psychic cry of WHY and he repeated it (I mean the original doctor in the hall, the one Amy thought was flesh).
Jen was also more tuned in with the flesh itself– picking up it's rage and sorrow and horror. The doctor turned just a little Jen like when overwhelmed with this. He seemed to be able to disconnect, or stop hearing some of it. Jen heard it the whole time. So the same rage the doctor felt, was in her all the time, growing, and thus she turned monster.
I'm still a bit puzzled at the SPLAT AMY at the end, but on rewatching I'm wondering if the Doctor was checking to see if she was the same sort of flesh as the others– that's why her reaction was so important. Or- he just decided he had to , even though it was terrible, and now he'll have to live with it. Which he always tries to do with his past stuff, past terrible actions- but it does eat away at him.
I think this ep was just about perfect. No prob with preg Amy, no prob with a few things that seem like glitches but seem to have a reason on the re-viewing. Two parter was perfect for it. And for the first time in Moffat's Who I really really connected with the doctor.
I agree, I think it all made sense in it's own way, and I trust Moffatt enough that the screwdriver situation is important rather than bloopery
….i was going to reply to this, but then I strangely forgot what I was going to say…
Reply to what? There isn't a comment there…
… is there?
Seriously, the two Doctors together are worse than Fred and George at finishing each other sentences, etc.
I still can't get over the fact that this is a child's show….maybe its easier for children to just accept that all will be explained in the end, but as adults we HAVE to figure things out… I love you Moffat.
THEORIES ABOUND. dear god, what if Amy's been a ganger from the beginning? Or from the Lodger?
Apparently there's a new cryptic clue thing on the BBC Doctor Who website. Not sure how spoilery it is, as I haven't looked, but thought some people might be interested 🙂
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Why was I laughing just now? Anyone know?
I LOVED THAT THE DOCTOR HAD A TWIN FOR THIS EPISODE. I LOVE THE DOCTOR, I LOVE TWINS, AND THAT'S PRETTY MUCH A FANGIRL'S DREAM RIGHT THERE.
that's all i have to say.
Oh man, where have you been? I know some people hated the hungry earth 2 parter but compared to this it's a masterpiece. at one point somebody said "what';s the point" and i seriously shouted "WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS BORING EPISIDE?" apparently the guy that wrote it is the same guy that wrote scribbles and uh, it shows IMO. overall yeah, i'm pretty underwhelmed with the season-though i liked The Doctor's Wife like everybody else did.
Your glorious holidays also held back the airing of these episodes in the grim frostbitten north :/. I had to watch it by other means. If you can't wait till saturday to see it send me an email address and I can help you out with that.
What did you think of the season five finale? I've been reading along with the Golden Compass reviews too but I never really have much to say about the parts everyone thinks is awesome.
Okay, season five finale. The Pandorica, a prison designed to hold THE DOCTOR, was equipped with ROCKETS that could fly it into space!? And WHY did the TARDIS even blow up in the first place!? Was that answered somewhere!? Oh! Holy crap, that Christmas episode was AMAZING, though. My brother and I were just watching that new Disney version of "A Christmas Carol" and thinking that no one ever does anything new with the story. Then, KAPOW––frickin' flyin' sharks. Amazing.
Oh dear, scribble dude wrote this one? Well, you can't poop gold twice, I guess. I did like Hungry Earth and that one with Vincent, though. Ha,ha,ha…who did you shout "THIS IS BORING" to? Don't tell me you've actually gotten your friends to watch this!? I tried to get my brother hooked, but he ended up liking the CAR show that comes on afterward! >:(
The Muppet Christmas Carol is the ultimate in my books-well along with Scrooged, the special is in there somewhere now. Great someone else likes the Hungry Earth! They never mentioned who blew up the Pandorica, I think they were looking to answer that this season judging by how the last one ended. I loved the end of 5 though I didn't really see Rory/the Romans all being in Amy's head coming and I thought it was well done. This season though-I guess second seasons are just cursed for me.
I wasn't really shouting at anyone but my bro happened to be over. He started watching the show though and he's a big Star Trek geek but he just seems to think DW's really really weird. So far: he thinks it's funny when 9's an asshole, Rose is annoying, the 10th doctor yells too much, 11 likes to talk to people really close to their face too much and "this guy has a time machine. if I could go back and do everything over as many times as I want I would look smart too."
Ha,ha,ha, I think your brother needs to be on the show; he sounds fun.
And that Hungry Earth one had a "Deep Space 9" feel, so that's why I think I liked it so much. Also, the antagonists had a REAL reason to be upset. On top of that, there were irrational and rational characters portrayed on BOTH sides of the argument! I wanna see what happens a thousand years later.
I can wait 'till Saturday for the next show, but does that mean I won't be able to catch up now? 🙁
Well I edit out his pc-baiting and homophobia when I report back on him, otherwise I would post everything he says like "shit my dad says" and rake in the big bux.
To be fair, Rory dying is a pretty good reason to be mad at an episode but I have to agree, this plot was totally my kind of thing and I like a 3-dimensional villain. Plus I liked Nasreen and most of the minor characters(though it wasn't perfect.) I thought the 1000 years thing was kind of redic solution and I can't see anyone actually agreeing to that but I hope there are meetups in the future.
If you're curious and can tolerate budget special effects there's a pretty awesome Classic Who serial with Silurians called "the Sea Devils" that's worth looking at. Classic Who isn't for everyone but it's been seriously growing on me while I've been disappointed with this season, but enough about that.
Also, I don't know if you know but for some reason they split this season into two parts and the next episode is the last one we will get to see untill the fall. On the bright side-plenty of time to watch Firefly!
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