Hello, Watchers! This week (and next week, for some folks in the US), we tackle part two of this Doctor Who story! Get your keyboards ready for smashing during yet another liveblog!
OK I DON’T CARE I REFUSE TO WAIT UNTIL NEXT WEEK.
god damn it matt smith how are you so perfect.
SO. “The Almost People.” The BBC America has decided not to show this episode because apparently no one watches TV on Memorial Day weekend? Apparently they overestimate how involved I am with this holiday? Whatever, I’ll be at SpectralBovine’s house ILLEGALLY BREAKING LAWS OF SUCH A NATURE. You are welcome to join in this week or, if you must wait until next week, you can join in then!
This liveblog starts relative to you. So if it is airing on your television, start liveblogging away in the comments. Same for if you happen to be watching it online by less-than-legal means. (Though I would just time it with another time zone so you can comment with other people!) We already do this with Fringe and it works rather nicely. To avoid seeing spoilery comments regarding the episode from past livebloggers, I merely stay on the first page of comments and comment away, only going back after it’s over in order to comment on what other people said.
Sound fine? Just make sure not to post spoilers before this episode airs.
Jen flesh has lost it. XD;
If all the human versions die in this…. XD; lol.
Twice the man I thought you were. Yay for lame puns. XD
Sadness for flesh Doctor melting though. D=
DDD= Amy is very flat for a pregnant woman. XD; lol.
….?
I am soooo confused right now.
O___________O
Surprise! D:
No kidding. XD lol.
OH MY GOD BEST HOUR OF TELEVISION EVER YES/YES???!! I don't know if this season is just FAN-FUCKIN-TASTIC or if it's because this is the first Doctor Who season I've watched in real time, but I am just feeling that every episode is just hitting it out of the ballpark! I mean, we're half way through the season and there was only one episode (pirates) that I didn't think was stellar! DOCTOR WHO Y U SO AWESOME?
WTC?!?!?!!??1 MY BRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MY BRAIN HAS BEEN MELTED!
I would like to just go ahead and say this episode has made up for the first part.
Also, I'm glad that the big plot twist at the end ACTUALLY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE FUCKING EPISODE. Unlike Cold Blood which just tacked on Rory's death.
SHIT THOSE LAST 5 MINUTES. WHAT WAS THAT.
Wait why is gangerJen psycho and none of the other gangers are? I guess my theory is that she was always "weak" and being a ganger made her feel strong and it went to her head a bit. And that ganger personality took over Jen's personality. But they never really explained it all the way, so I'm still confused….. ARGH!
And I'm not even going to try and figure when they swapped Amy for a ganger. I can't wait until next week but also I'm dreading it because then there'll be a huge gap until September. WHY?
I thought it was the opposite. I thought she's the most sensitive and emotional of the bunch… because she feels weak. But because she could feel and remember all the times they were executed/decommissioned they affected her that much more.
Possibly she felt that being inhuman justified the actions that she took, that she'd always wanted to do but was too afraid of social reactions and ostracism. But now that she's become Frankenstein's Monster, it's time to obliterate a village or two.
I thought it might be that Jennifer wanted vengeance because she was a ganger of ganger!Jennifer, and that's why she could remember other ganger lives and such – it wasn't just duplicate!Jennifer that was made self-aware, but also duplicated flesh made self-aware. Maybe that's what the Doctor meant when he said the flesh wants to create more of itself? That The Flesh is not only aware of itself as humanity, but aware of how the Flesh imitates humanity and isn't accepted by it, while wanting independence from it? At least that's the best I can think of… that the most rebellious and violent version of Jennifer is not the human-to-flesh form, but flesh that has the memory of being awakened flesh, so she feels the acute pain of being repeatedly killed.
Wasn't it because she could remember all of her deaths, whereas the others couldn't? Though I never was clear about why exactly she could…
Not gonna lie that scene scared the living daylights out of me.
Amy's face kind of made me want to curl up and cry ;_;
Unexpected girlcrush on Cleaves was unexpected.
Well, so was PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING ELSE, but yeah. As mindscrews go, that was one of the better ones I've had!
Can it be next saturday now plz.
Mm, well, she is quite handsome.
'Unexpected girlcrush on Cleaves was unexpected'
Oh, thank goodness, it's not just me.
WHAT JUST HAPPENED? Amy was flesh? When did that happen? Whaaaaaaaaat???
WHAT WHAT WHAT!
What!!!!!!
Did he just melt ganger!Amy ? How is that ok after we just spent an episode saying gangers are people too?
the proper thing would be get a ganger!Rory for ganger!Amy.
I think my brain is melting. WTH
Due to the storm, the gangers of the workers were able to maintain consciousness without the need for the hosts. The Amy ganger, however, still needs to have a connection with the host Amy in order to function, or would otherwise be an inert lump of Flesh once Amy is removed from the device used to control the ganger Amy, similar to the pile of discarded Flesh bodies from earlier.
In shorter terms: The Doctor was doing the flesh a kindness.
I imagine.
He's possibly also saving the real Amy's life and that of her baby's, as she might not be able to give birth properly while her consciousness is in the very non-pregnant Ganger!Amy body.
My favorite part of this entire two parter was how different the experiences of flesh Jennifer made her, and how different the experience of seeing real!Cleaver kill another flesh person really changed flesh!Cleaver to become a much better, less destructive person. And that was the first flash we had.. that Cleaver could be someone better, someone kinder and someone different, and we saw that come into being near the end when she finds out about her own mortality.
I thought it was really poignant to see the gangers and the humans react differently to this situation because of their already wildly varying experiences.
But I know a lot of other people hated this two-parter and were bored but IDK I liked it.
ALSO THAT ENDING.
WHAT IS HAPPENING TO MY LIFE.
I couldn't believe Rory abandoned Amy and let the Doctor melt her in the end even if it is a ganger.
WHAT THE FUCK JUST HAPPENED?
Um.
What.
I
I can't
I don't even
There were five million ridiculous theories going around the internet AND NOT ONE WAS CORRECT.
I HAVE NEVER BEEN LESS PREPARED IN MY LIFE.
What the fuck? Holy shit! WHAT THE FUCK HOLY SHIT OMGGGGGGG.
BBC America you can't stop me! Muahahaha!
That was interesting…
*hugs title sequence cos she can*
I'm having a Jack moment. I can't tell you what I'm thinking right now! 🙂
What is the Doctor's obsession with breathing?
"Let it go." Yeah, Yowza is a strange word…
Hello Rawry! *wishes she could hug Rawry*
Choking gas? That's not good.
Headaches aren't good.
That's not creepy.
Can Jennifer please turn off her creepy face? It's gonna give me nightmares.
They both called her Sexy. haha. Oh Doctor.
John Smith is used on all the example doc frames at work and it always makes me think of the Doctor and smile when I see them.
That doesn't sound good.
Spinning on chairs. Very fun.
GAH! Eye Patch Lady! WHY?
Oh, she finally told the Doctor.
Oh poor Ganger Doctor.
Harsh Amy is Harsh!
Oh dear, that doesn't look good for Rory.
I don't wanna trust either Jennifer.
I love tossing my box cutter like the Doctor tossed the Sonic. Up and down up and down. Probably more dangerous though since it's a knife.
No Rory, don't choke.
RORY! Don't trust her! She's not real!
That's a gross pile.
SEE! I told you!
WTF? Don't take out the Doctor! I don't care if it's the real or ganger Doctor.
That's really creepy!
Roranicus Pondicus! I saw a silver statue of a Roman and I wanted to buy it so I could call it Rory! My mom said no. It was too expensive.
No! Ganger Doctor! Don't shove Rory!
Ring Ring! You're crazy.
Or not. Holo call. Cool.
Nice one Ganger Doctor!
Revenge gets you no where.
I think I'd probably say the same thing if my ganger were holding me while I died.
Awww… Amy/Rory hug.
That kid is cute.
So now there are two gangers who will be replacing the humans who died.
Hello Tardis.
Awww… they tricked Amy but it's really cute.
How many sonics has he got around? I'm so confused.
Awww, they melted.
How cute, they're people.
Burnt onions? I don't like regular onions.
So, the smoke alarm in my house went off (my mom burned a bit of dinner) and I pulled an Amy. I sank down on my hair and put my hands over my head. I thought the house might blow up or something. I watch too much Doctor Who.
Red Balloon!
Happy Endings indeed Doctor. I could hug you.
What's wrong with Amy?
Nice explaination Doctor.
Yes, it is a beauitful word.
Angry Doctor sounds Angry.
Awww… poor Rory, poor Amy.
What?
AMY! What?
EYE PATCH LADY!
FU TO BE CONTINUED SCREEN!
*eye twitch*
Seriously… I just had to YT the trailer for next week's episode. Not cool.
Episode 7 does air next week, yes?
Yes. Unless you're in the United States, in which case you'll be seeing this one after the Memorial Day hiatus.
Well, actually I am in the US, but CableOne doesn't carry BBC America so I cheat. I have spoken with CableOne about fixing this as there are several shows that play on BBC America (or will be playing on BBC America) that I wish to watch properly and can't. They've done nothing but put my request in their queue.
POTENTIAL SPOILERS/THEORIES ABOUND
Did anyone else notice that the first thing the two Doctors said to each other, once the ganger!Doctor had stabilized, was "cybermen"? I'm rewatching it now (yes, directly after watching it the first time DON'T JUDGE ME) and I'm catching SO MUCH MORE! My brain was exploding from excitement the first time I watched and I missed many small things…
Not Cybermen. Cybermats. From Tomb of the Cybermen.
Man, I love how many callbacks are in these last two seasons.
ah, thanks! I kept mishearing so many little things!
THEORIES ABOUND
Okay, if Amy is ready to push, that means she's been pregnant for nine months. Or is she in another universe where the time is different from on Earth so it's nine months there and two months or whatever in what we've been watching? I'm so confused. Anyway, if the time IS the same, then that means Flesh!Amy must have been made before Amy started showing, right? So that would mean Flesh!Amy has been around for about 6 months. The time between The Big Bang and The Impossible Astronaut is two months according to Amy's comment about having not seen the Doctor for two months. But that's impossible, right? So it has to be a weird timey-wimey thing. My head hurts.
Wasn't there a time span of about three months between The Impossible Astronaut and Day of the Moon? That'd add up to five months, so… maybe she's a late shower? Her stomach wasn't very big even at the end.
That's possible! I knew there was a time lapse, but I didn't think it was that long. Yeah, she is really tiny and sometimes tiny women take longer to show.
Well also they're in the 22nd century and yet Amy's ganger being killed in that time frame means her real self wakes up somewhere 9 months pregnant but with future ganger technology.
There's definitely timey wimey going on. You have to also count the amount of time that Amy's also been traveling with the Doctor since Day of the Moon… I'd say about a month.
The time between The Big Bang and The Impossible Astronaut is two months according to Amy's comment about having not seen the Doctor for two months.
More like the time between A Christmas Carol and TIA. Amy and Rory went on several honeymoons between TBB and ACC, which could easily add up to a month. For that matter, they could've spent any amount of time traveling with the Doctor after ACC before he left them on Earth for two months.
Oh yeah. I forgot about the Xmas special.
Just rewatched it and noticed something. Amy told Flesh!Doctor that she had seen him die, only it was actually the REAL Doctor, so now he knows.
Did it say when they changed shoes? Was it right at the beginning?
I don't think it matters. a) I think the two Doctors are telepathic, and b) he knows because at the end when ganger!Doctor said "I guess my death approaches," Doctor said "But this time we're not all invited."
But the ganger doctor said "What?" to that. So I don't think they're that telepathic.
My guess is they did it when they were fixing that equipment thing to get the power back on (when Amy told them to stop finishing each other's sentences). They were popping up and down from behind it on one side, and everyone else (especially Amy) was on the other, so it would've been pretty simple to do it then. That would've been before the significant scenes with Amy – it's in fact the first time they note Amy having more affection for the FleshDoctor (pretend RealDoctor).
Yeah, when I thought about it I figured it out too. I need to rewatch so I can see who said what to who.
I think these two episodes were far more confusing than the opening for that very reason… not knowing who was saying what other than when the Gangers took on their creepy forms was very annoying, I don't think I could connect to either one that much. IT WAS FRUSTRATING.
Seeing doctor all pained makes me sad 🙁
DON’T BE SCARY… please? 🙁
Wow two unhappy faces already and not even to the credits. Oh, there they are
Clever gangers
Lol, they’re like the bananas in pajamas… are you thinking what I’m thinking?
Different shoes, eh? That makes sense…. although I can’t remember which one is the real doctor. The one with older looking shoes cause he had to change them?
Setting shot! It is quite pretty <3
These episodes are pretty much like… lets be painful and sad ALL THE TIME. Lets just all choke to death.
Gnawwwww Proud dad(s)
Jenn… you’re a BITCH.
‘Tough… old… sexy’
‘Bow ties are’ ‘and always will be…’ looool
OH AMY! Don’t be like that 🙁
‘See how smart I am?’
‘Non-human access denied’ Nawwwww…
Amy you’re making G!Doctor sad and it makes me sad
BUT WILL HE SEE HER FREAKING OUT!??
Or did he see it too? ANSWERS MAYBE? (I doubt it)
ANGRY G!DOCTER WHHHHYYYYY?
RORY!!!!! Is this the first time he’s talked? It’s too long!
Rory, be a good boy and say you don’t give a damn which is which.
Awwwww…. Jenn 🙁 Oh wait… I care less now.
OH WAIT MAYBE THEY’RE BOTH GANGERS? One of the doctors said something about dividing?
HAHAHHA ‘I’ll BREAK OUT THE BIG GUNS’ Oh Rory.
Rory, rory rory. At least you don’t mean to screw everything up
Cleeves is sick, yes? Both of them?
REAL JENNIFER IS DEAD. Saw that coming.
Eyes, creepy. CREEPY.
Okay, between the two versions of people… NONE OF THESE PEOPLE ARE LIKABLE.
Rory… I think you’re being tricked.
MORANICUS PONDICUS!!!
Lol, what was that click point thing? JOIN THE REVOLUTION
‘If you don’t feel sick by mid-morning you’re not doing it right.’
I thought that old guy with son would die… cause that means G!Old Guy gets to be human… yes?
‘Daddyyyy? Where’s my daddy?’
Lol awkward jumping on spot boy XD
Run. Run. Ruuuuuuuuun.
HAHAHAHA.
Doctor, you are a tricky bastard!!!!!
‘Push Amy, but only when she tells you to.’ DUN DUN DUN
WHY DON’T YOU MOVE THE TARDIS OVER TEN METRES AND PICK THEM UP!!!
WAIT ITS HAPPENING NOW!!!
WHAT IS HAPPENING.
I DON’T UNDERSTAAAAAAND
AAAAAMMMMY!!!!
CREEPY LADY CREEEPPPPPPYYYYY!
WHAT THE HELL.
AAAAAAAAAAARGH
Pretty much my entire reaction, your entire capslock portion.
My favorite part is definitely Cleaves because she and her Ganger are so remarkably different, as are Jennifer's and her.
Haha, I love how your commentary/observations at the end basically just falls apart, accurately depicting the panic/horror/confusion that I, and I'm pretty sure anyone who has watched/will ever watch this episode, felt
HOLY CRAP WHAT JUST HAPPENED? DID RORY REALLY JUST GO TWO ENTIRE EPISODES WITHOUT DYING????
Also, there's some sort of extremely creepy ending with Amy…
He's probably dying inside, emotionally, because of that ending.
So, Matt Smith's Fourth Doctor impersonation is pretty good, even if it only lasted like a second.
Double Doctors is pretty great for now, but I bet it'll get old quick.
Amy pulled a muscle–in her stomach. GEE I WONDER.
adfjk Amy's face when the Doctors refer to Sexy.
Leader Lady is pretty terrible.
;_; aww poor GangerDoctor.
Finally she tells him about Eyepatch. What are you thinking, Doctor. Why aren't you telling her anything.
"I'll break out the big guns." lolrory.
D: oh god the pile of Flesh.
And the eyes wtf.
…lol the Grudge face isn't scary at all.
RORINICUS PONDICUS
;; okay this episode is actually evoking feelings.
ajdkfj ahaha Doctor you are a dick but you are awfully clever.
but wait this means the Doctor knows he dies, right?
FINALLY we're getting to the pregnancy plot.
…..what. WHAT. adkflaj
HOLY FUCK. WHAT. THIS IS FUCKING FUCKED UP D:
Either Matt Smith's fourth doctor impression was spot on, or I have a sneaking suspicion they reused the audio from an actual Tom Baker episode 😀 No one is that good a mimic!!
Hah, yeah, the more I think about it the more likely that is.
As Tom Baker recently returned to the fold to do some Big Finsh work, I believe that they asked him to record that line specially at the time.
Holy crap that ending, that was … a twist. Quite a twist. My mind may be a little bit blown. My heart may be more than a little bit terrified.
SO HERE'S MY FREAKING QUESTION
IF AMY IS A GANGER
AND GANGERS WERE INVENTED IN THE 22 CENTURY
HOW THE FUCK DID THE SILENCE GET GANGER TECHNOLOGY
UNLESS THEY TIME TRAVELED USING TIME TRAVEL TECH EVENTUALLY INVENTED ON EARTH AND TIME TRAVELED BACK WITH A GANGER OR SOMETHING…
BUT THEN WHY IS THEIR BASE OF OPERATIONS IN THE SEVENTIES/RAISING THE GIRL IN THE SEVENTIES???
IS THERE SOME SIGNIFICANCE TO THIS OR DOES MOFFATT JUST WANT TO USE 70S SCENERY PORN I AM SO CONFUSEDLKFJSBJL;DFGFUCKING SHOW.
also my money is still on her being switched when she was in the room with the silence on the ceiling.
So here I am again, late to watch Who! So I’m just gonna blog all in one post again for ease of reading. Is it weird that I’m looking forward to the ‘next time’ preview more than the episode itself? Here I go!
•Reverse the polarity on the neutron flow! LOL
•“Would you like a jellybaby?” OMGOMGOMG was that actually Tom Baker???
•Oh shit he’s gonna be screwed up isn’t he? I KNEW it! I knew there was no way he wouldn’t have issues!
•Love the Doctor chatting to himself!
•YOWZA! ^^
•Ooooh ominous headaches. Maybe the problem will solve itself huh?
•Awwww Pond doesn’t like ganger!doctor ïŒ
•OH HOLY CRAP EYEPATCH WOMAN IN BROAD DAYLIGHT.
•Oh Amy don’t tell him you saw him die!
•YOU RASCIST AMY.
•Ewwwwww, ganger!jen melted
•Hmmmmm why did she need Rory for that hand scan eh?
•EWWWWWW PILE OF DISCARDED FLESH that is revolting. I ate a melted jelly that looked like that once.
•HOLY SHIT GANGER!JEN OPENED HER MOUTH REALLY REALY WIDE AND THAT WAS THE CREEPIEST THING EVER.
•Oh, that is SO ganger!rory isn’t it? Oh, or not.
•I swear, the doctor’s real name must just be John Smith. 😛
•Heheh, Miranda is such a bitch to herself.
•Nooooo ganger!doctor whyyy???? I don’t believe it, not for a second! He’s got to be bluffing.
•Yay chocolate for breakfast on your birthday! AMEN.
•Well, a least now only ganger!jen is a problem
•:’(
•Wow, good timing Tardis!
•“You’re twice the man I thought you were” 😀
•Old Patchy IS a midwife, and the Doctor knows it!
•Wow, that kid is a terrible actor.
•But yay for ganger/human relations!
•Shenanigans!
•Whatthehellwhatthehellwhatthehellishappening???
•OH SHIT
•OH SHIT
•OH SHIT
•Wait, why is there no ‘next time’ thing??? Is this just because I’m on iplayer??? WHYYYYYY????
HOLY GOD THAT EPISODE.
For some reason they didn't show the trailer at the end of the episode, but it is available here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/videos/p00h7m4l
Coupla things- Doctor who and the Daleks. A film from 1965. It was on watch yesterday and I sky +d it and watched it today. How canon is it? And was Peter Cushing being a young version of William Hartnell's Doctor?
Dalek Invasion 2150AD was also on and I recorded it. Is that canon? Kind of canon? I haven't watched it yet so I dunno what to expect.
Is anyone else going to watch TIA and DotM this week and try to work out when Amy changed? That is totally my plan for the day 🙂
They're not canon. They were made at the height of Dalekmania in the UK and basically just an excuse to get the Daleks on the big screen. Furthermore, the Peter Cushing doctor is a fundamentally different character from the actual Doctor as he's a human and not alien apart from a number of other incompatibilities.
thanks! I had NO context to these films and was like "whutttt?!"
The TARDIS was odd, and he introduced himself as "Doctor Who", but his 'companions' were a young susan and an Ian and Barbara. It was very confusing for me! so yeah, thanks for the explanation 🙂
It's like… you know how Hollywood keeps making movie versions of old TV shows like The A-Team and Get Smart and Starsky and Hutch? And they change stuff and it's all new actors, and basically it's a new story, not part of the old series?
Basically, it's like that, except that Doctor Who was so popular that they did it straight away instead of waiting forty years first.
You know how ganger!Amy 'felt sick' during episode 1. Was that because human!Amy was pregnant?
Well.
SO DID RIVER.
OMG River is a ganger too.
Or pregnant. OR BOTH LIKE AMY.
Alright, THEORIES ABOUND!
Myself and the boyfriend just rewatched the Almost People and we have (well, he did really) just come up with an awesome holy-shit theory that I will share with you now.
So, my theory about duality and the alternate universe has been pretty much shot to hell and I'm coming to terms with this tremendous loss. However, boyfriend has suggested that it's not 'two' that's the issue (two Doctors, two Amys etc).
It's THREE.
Ganger Doctor and Real Doctor swap shoes. They decide that Real Doctor (pretending to be Ganger Doctor but I'll just refer to them as who they actually are for simplicity) should go with Marshall Lancaster (Buzzer?) to look for Jennifer. Ganger Doctor throws a sonic screwdriver to Real Doctor and Real Doctor goes off, gets knocked out and then joins the rest of the Gangers, still carrying his screwdriver. That’s One.
Later, we see Ganger Doctor locked in the acidy-room with Amy and etc. He pulls out a sonic screwdriver and uses it, I think, on the acid. That’s two.
Finally, at the end, Ganger Doctor is by the door with Ganger Cleaves, holding back Scary-Ass Jennifer. The swap is revealed and Real Doctor throws his sonic screwdriver across to Ganger Doctor, who then dies (apparently).
Assuming that a replica sonic-screwdriver was created with the Ganger (along with clothes and etc), when the shoe-swapping occurred, both screwdrivers might have been held with Ganger Doctor, so that he could create the illusion of being the real one by throwing a screwdriver to the Real Doctor (whilst still keeping one for himself.) Still with me? Sorry, this sounds like a total mess.
So this would account for two screwdrivers and two Doctors. It would also mean that both screwdrivers should finally have ended up with the Ganger Doctor. Except, we all get back on the Tardis, Amy starts trying to birth Schrodinger’s baby and the Real Doctor melts her… with a screwdriver. That’s THREE.
As far as I can see, there are three (how apt!) explanations:
1)The boyfriend and I have been addled with hangover and we’ve managed to miss yet another screwdriver swap that explains this all away. There was only ever two, or even one, and we’ve just confused ourselves.
2)We’ve read the episode correctly and the continuity is just fucking appalling.
3)There are three doctors. One Doctor who came out of the bathroom in Utah; one Ganger Doctor created in this episode; and a third who is either another Ganger or something else entirely. The third, presumably, is the one who dies in Utah.
Other evidence that makes three likely includes the fact that the Doctor keeps knowing things before they happen. The phone ringing, the contractions, Amy being a Ganger… If there are in fact three, I have no idea who is who at any given time and that’s far too confusing for me to nail down. Safe to say that one of them is the one who is much older than the others and therefore knows exactly what’s going to happen because he’s already lived it. And of course, each one had their own screwdriver.
Our reckoning is that the Doctor who melts Amy is the Third Doctor. He has this strange detachment that reminds me of the Impossible Astronaut Death Doctor. And he brings out a red balloon, already blown up for Jimmy to give to Adam – how could he have known to do that unless he was an older Doctor?
And finally, in a lovely touch that makes me want this to be true so badly… The Doctor presumably gives the red balloon to Jimmy to give to Adam. But when they are reunited, Jimmy gives Adam TWO balloons and right before that moment, there’s a quick flash of a THIRD balloon skimming out across the sea. Boyfriend and I have decided that this is a CLUE to there being three Doctors.
What say you, Mark Watches?
i love this theory omg
O.O
You are a goddess. Really. Even if you aren't right- though I think you've made some FANTASTIC points- this is so brilliant I might just use this as my own head canon. It's. Just. So. Amazing. Are. You. Moffat.
Awesome, cheers!
Yes, even if it's totally wrong it was so much fun figuring it out. Boyfriend was skimming through the episode pointing out all the screwdrive switches and then we got to the bit with the balloons and when I saw the third balloon blow away I got chills. Such good fun, even if it's WAY off, I so hope it's at least half right!
Is it just me or was it very non-Doctor to just go and kill Fake-Amy? I mean… Right??
And Fake Amy was a Ganger, right? Made from the Flesh? So, given the fact that Fake Amy has all of Real Amy's real memories, there are (as far as I can think of) two options:
– One: Fake Amy was evil, aware of the evil capturing-real-Amy-and-making-her-preggers plan, and she was acting REALLY REALLY GOOD not to reveal any of the evil masterplan. In which case the Doctor shouldn't have killed her because she might have inforation about Real Amy's whereabouts.
– Or Two: Fake Amy didn't realize she was a fake, in which case WTF DOCTOR YOU CAN'T JUST GO ON KILLING INNOCENT FAKE AMY'S!!!
I AM SO CONFUSED.
Ganger amy wasn't separate to real amy. It was a body being controlled by real amy in that weird room, and she was unaware that the body wasn't the original one. Once that body was killed she woke up in the room, ready to give birth.
(I wrote all that rather confidently, as if every thing I know about this series of Doctor Who hasn't just been smashed down! I could easily be wrong 🙂 )
Ah! Of course, that makes sense. 🙂 Thanks!
As far as I can tell, it wasn't *really* Amy. The gangers they had in the factory were separately animate and conscious from the real people, which was why they had every right to be alive. But ganger-Amy had just got Amy's mind in her, not her own version of it. It kind of goes like this:
<img src="http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/hanelissar/Amyexplainchart.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket">
Amy's ganger was a replicate with her consciousness inside it; the gangers in the factory had managed to survive independently because of the solar storm. So when they were killed it was a proper death – they didn't just wake back up in their 'real' bodies and therefore had to be treated much more as real people because they could properly die. Whereas when Amy 'died' she instantly woke back up in the white birth-y room, freaking the hell out because one moment she's in the TARDIS then she's alone and going into labour with a baby she didn't think she was pregnant with.
Of course this doesn't work perfectly with the discarded-ganger-bodies-in-pile-still-being-conscious thing, but I am choosing to ignore that because I think it is plot fail rather than anything else.
Does that makes sense? (Blugh formatting totally failed, let us try again with a paint-version! THIRD TIME IS A CHARM Y/Y??)
Your diagram is win 🙂
Hee thank you. 😀 I am very bad at explaining things coherently when they are complex, so I need LINES! I used to do a lot of science subjects and the only way I could understand biological processes and things was by drawing lots and lots of diagrams. I am a very visual learner!
It does work – the flesh, being flesh, and having had the ghost of so many peoples' personalities stamped on it over and over, had grown (or had always had) a sort of consciousness of its own. Like skynet! Ganger Jennifer is essentially a Terminator – aware of the will of the main slave-consciousness, able to move and exist with agency of her own. The discarded fleshpile probably didnt have the imprinted personality of whoever it was gangers of any more, but it still had the memory of memories and was alive enough to be awake. If the amybody hadn't been sonic'd, it might have been similarly alive-ish but not amy-y once her mind had left it, who knows?
Ahh okay, that makes sense, thank you! I knew there had to be a logical explanation in there somewhere 🙂
I agree with your diagram, but I think Amy got pregnant AFTER the clone was made. Otherwise, the doctor wouldn't have had readings of Amy being both pregnant and not pregnant. So they copied her, gave her back, THEN she got pregnant, then they switched her. Though when each of those events play out in the timeline is still a mystery to me…
I suppose, but are we sure that a pregnancy would carry over to a clone? I can see how it would, but at the same time… I don't know.
Well if what's happening to the real Amy is bleeding through to the clone (which we know it is because of the random appearance of eyepatch lady), then it's not too much to consider that the associated twinges of pain and/or nausea may have followed as well. And obviously enough to complete confuse the TARDIS because it can see that this Amy isn't pregnant, but she seems to be pregnant as well so poor Sexy is all WHAT IS GOING ON IDEK. Kind of like the rest of us!
Hmm. That is possible, and would explain the fact that a perfect cellular reproduction of her didn't get more pregnant. I think you're probably right, but I can't be bothered to amend my diagram now. 😛 Although if Amy wasn't pregnant until after she was copied then that must mean she hasn't been real-Amy back to even earlier in episode one than I thought – it must be from before she started feeling queasy in Nixon's office. I just hope that the switch didn't happen before the series even started because that would be rubbish. Maybe when she first saw the Silence on the hill a whole bunch of stuff happened that they all remembered and therefore we didn't see? OH ANSWERS, I MUST KNOW YOU SOON.
YES!
If Amy was copied before the series, well, that's just annoying!!
I think Amy seeing the Silence on the hill is significant as well – but my poor brain can't cope with trying to work out what in the universe is going on right now.
Ganger!Amy hadn't split from original!Amy — they were the same consciousness, the same stream. I don't think he destroyed the Flesh that ganger!Amy was made of, either — just made it lose its ~psychic connection~ thing to original!Amy. I rewatched, and it doesn't show exactly what he did with the unformatted Flesh.
This. It's real!Amy's mind the whole time, which is why she keeps seemingly hallucinating eyepatch lady. If you listen really closely to the Doctor's babbling, he specifically states that he kept scanning the Flesh because he wanted to learn how to block the signal–IE, how to cut off this connection between real!Amy's mind and fake!Amy body. So when he uses the screwdriver on her, that's exactly what he does. If fake!Amy had been like the Gangers in these two episodes, 'hardwired' as he puts it, his zap would have done nothing because the Gangers in this episode had been animated by the storm, and no longer needed the real thems to maintain their shape.
Think of the Amy we've been watching as a remote controlled body of the real!Amy, and real!Amy has been along for the ride in said remote controlled body with no idea that this has happened.
Don't you love howeveryone's liveblog comments just descend into random keymashes and CAPS LOCK at the end?
We're just so collectively WTFing at this ending.
😛
Coming here and reading 550+ comments of everyone reacting THE EXACT SAME WAY I DID makes my heart hurt. Literally. (In a good way!)
I love this site. And this show. And EVERYTHING OH GOD
WE LOVE YOU TOO.
My theory on this is that the Ganger!Doctor has his eye/why realization right at the beginning of the episode. He starts shouting about 'why' and grabbing Original!Doctor and shoving him around and generally having a really terrible time of it.
Later, Original!Doctor pretending to be Ganger!Doctor pretty much gets the exact same thing. He says something about how it's in his mind before he steps out (and Amy follows) and even though what Amy's saying to him is clearly important, he's also clearly distracted. She tells him about his own death right when he gets the full brunt of it so…little wonder he pretty much does exactly what Ganger!Doctor did. He starts getting shouty and grabby and desperate.
His conversation after he comes back in the room is kind've telling in hindsight. He's saying he can hear the Flesh now, and Amy keeps saying 'you ARE the Flesh' and he's not really paying attention. I think Ganger!Doctor pretending to be Orginal!Doctor felt some of the backlash, but Original!Doctor's reaction was pretty genuinely raw.
Just did another re watch. Totally with you on this. Good catch!
can we discuss for the mo the fact that the doctor(S) can tell the future? Where did they learn all this? I can't work out exactly what's happening but some timey wimey shit is going down, and I wanna know what! Any one have theories?
Well, the phone ringing thing was timed – the doctor ordered that call. There's a throwaway line while Amy's being mean to Real!Doctor pretending to the be the Doctorganger about making a phone call – not calling anyone yet but will be, and the holographic image had something writted on it to the effect of thank you for ordering this call. Maybe some timey wimey shit is going down, but that's not it.
what about "breathe" and "push but only when she tells you to"??? does it mean the doctor is in on the fact that real amy was taken to that room with that woman?
He might know more about Eyepatch Lady than he's yet to say (ooh, maybe there is an entire *race* of Eyepatch Ladies that he's been exposed to before?). And knowing that there's an Eyepatch Lady following her around seemingly may confirm for him what the TARDIS couldn't – that she is indeed pregnant.
One Eyepatch Lady is creepy enough, thanks! Do not need a whole race!!
That was probably the creepiest 'push' I've ever ever heard anyone say. Ever. Do Not Want.
I'm fairly sure that by the beginning of The Rebel Flesh, the Doctor already knows what's going on, because he goes there specifically to learn about the Flesh and scan it so he can figure out how to disrupt the signal between controlling mind and fake body.
And somehow he seems to know the pregnancy is about ready to end. I assumed that when he referred to 'she' at the end, it was because Amy had told him earlier about eyepatch lady. It's a pretty big leap, but hey, it's the Doctor.
Because the Doctor we see at the end of this episode is the older Doctor who dies in the Impossible Astronaut. He knows everything that's happening because he's seen it happening before. Three screwdrivers; three Doctors.
<img src="http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/Claire-Zee-Wulf/TwilightReaction.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket">
mfw that makes so much goddamn sense
OK, I just realised something – if Amy was switched before episode 2, she was switched before the doctor implanted those recording devices. The device they found on the floor of the orphanage was never removed from Amy – her ganger was deleted and her consciousness was possibly uploaded into a new one, and because that recording device wasn't part of the Flesh, it stayed behind!
This is BRILLIANT. Great eye. 😀
Oooh that would explain why it keeps working even though it's not in her anymore – because the new ganger Amy replicates *everything*, including inanimate things like clothes and recording devices! THIS STUFF IS MINDBLOWING
I was not prepared.
My body is not ready for next week….I just don't know what Moff is going to do to my poor mind.
I've just rewatched (again!) and seriously, there are too many screwdrivers in this episode.
I'm going to need one of those shirts.
THIS.
For the record, there's a lot of talk about Amy being impregnated by the Tardis or by the Silence to create some weird weapon-baby and I have to say this:
If Amy got pregnant by ANY MEANS that was not 100% consensual, I will be furious. Whether that's sex with another person or by agreeing to host aforementioned weird weapon baby, I don't care, as long as it was TOTALLY CONSENSUAL.
The whole 'forced-alien-baby' trope is just rapey and repellent and I'll be sorely disappointed if Who goes down that route. Don't be that guy, Moff.
I'm agreed there. I'm of the opinion that it'll be a normal baby of Amy's and Rory's… But I'd be okay if travelling in the TARDIS gave it some huon particle radiation effects or some such (in Doctor Who speak, I wouldn't mind if the kid had a time head 🙂 ).
And maybe the Silence knows somehow that Amy's child will be important in the future for some reason, and so took her once she was pregnant to look after it? I don't know.
But I really hope (and believe so far, with the information we've been given) that the pregnancy was, at least initially, consensual (maybe not planned, but consensual sex).
At risk of looking like a fool for not going back and examining EVERY MINUTE of EVERY EPISODE (am I a bad fan?), I'm going to say that Amy's been wearing that red flannel shirt since her second appearance in the Impossible Astronaut. In her first bit with Rory, she's wearing a similar top, only in a blue-ish gray hue; then jump a few scenes to the two of them emerging from the school bus in America, and she has on the red flannel one, which, if I'm correct, she retains through six episodes until the moments she gets decommissioned by the Doctor. So, going along those lines, the Amy at home with Rory at the beginning of the season was Real!Pregnant!Amy; the Silence or whoever (I'm going for the Silence, since the whole mind control/instant amnesia thing would be convenient for their operation) kidnap Real!Amy for whatever reason and replace her with NotPregnant!Ganger!Amy, who, possessed of all Real!Amy's thoughts, goes on to tell the Doctor that she is pregnant, resulting the in inconclusive scan. That's just my take on the matter.
But yes, that ending was one heck of a twist. The next episode should be epic.
Regarding the first part of your comment, I also thought that, but in DotM, which I rewatched about an hour ago, Amy switches between the red tartan, a bluey tartan and then the black suit she wears to the orphanage. The black suit was what she had on when she saw the eye patch lady for the first time, which suggests that gangers CAN change clothes. but in the following episodes she goes back to the red, presumably because the red is also made from flesh and is preferable for that reason (unconsciously?).
That information doesn't hurt your theory, I was just clarifying the clothes parts 🙂
She does seem to wear the red flannel a lot, but at some point (I can't remember exactly when) she's wearing a more pinkish flannel, rather than the red one.
Theories Abound
In the 'Impossible Astronaut' that Silent in the bathroom tells Amy to tell the Doctor what he must to know and what he should never know. At the time we probably thought it meant his death, but what if they it meant:
Must know = Amy's Pregnant
Never know = She's a ganger
But Amy only gets as far as telling the Doctor that she's pregnant and then later says she's not, just thought she was (who knows, maybe during the 3 months we didn't see she had time to pee on a stick) but that worries the Doctor so he does the scan of her and discovers Schroedinger's Pregnancy which eventually leads him to "This isn't really Amy".
I'm probably wrong, but it was a thought I had none the less and wanted to share.
It's pretty good watching it with subtitles.
Spinning in chairs. <3
Creepy breathing noises?
Aaaannd, Eye Patch Lady.
Poor Doctor. 🙁
Amy, stop being a jerk.
Comfy barrel. 😀
Oh, Rory.
We have two Doctors and two Amys, but only one Rory? No fair.
"I'll break out the big guns."
Oh, Rory. Can you be more cute?
"Rory's in trouble."
Rory's always in trouble.
"Roranicus Pondicus!"
The Rory and Amy reunion hug never gets old. 🙂
Cute little dance. 😀
Run.
Run!
RUN!
That's it, hug him.
"If I turn up to nick your biscuits…"
"It's a beautiful word, shenanigans."
The Doctor is angry. And sad.
And Eye Patch Lady is creepy.
"Pussssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh."
Just a small bit over 10 hours till this episode airs for me. <3.
OMGs FINALLY it's time for me and there's probably not going to be anyone else watching it with me now. 🙁
New theories!
Last week there was the marathon, right? So, I rewatched "The Impossible Astronaut" and "Day of the Moon" and so remember how the Silence told Amy she'd been with them many days, and she was like "Uh no, I just got here" and they assured her that no, no, she'd been there a while.
SO. THEORIES:
1) Amy is STILL THERE.
2) And the one I think is more likely, the Silence did a timey-wimey thing and somehow managed, in just the time between they got her and the Doctor and River showed up, to accelerate time just for her, or keep her in a time-paused place and SHE'S ALREADY GIVEN BIRTH.
So. Back to "The Almost People" I like how the Doctor ganger had to adjust to all his past regenerations and then he and the realish Doctor were perfectly fine and better, really enjoying each others' company. XD It's gotta be tough to be the only person that smart all the time. ^_^
Jenny, what the fuck you freaking out for?
Dude who keeps talking about his son, you re SO going to die. It's what happens to people with families on Doctor Who.
Okay, I can't do this. I need to concentrate.
Every time I've seen ganger!Jennifer on the commercials saying "I have a plan, and it'll destroy them all" I keep thinking I have SO SEEN HER BEFORE. And I don't know in what. >:( Frustration!
"Almost the Doctor." Ooooh, this is not going to end well.
Poor ganger!Doctor. I feel for him, even as I… also understand where Amy's coming from.
Time memory? TIME MEMORY???
SO WAIT DOES THE DOCTOR WHO WHO EYEPATCH LADY IS????
Well… this is awkward. Nerg, I can see both sides. He's not the original Doctor, but… he IS the Doctor. But he's also the flesh… but… I AM SO CONFUSED.
Poor Rory, having to stop the two Jennies. And on a different note, poor Doctor for having Amy not trust him.
I have to say, I'm really enjoying this dynamic between Doctor, ganger!Doctor and Amy. It's tense, and uncomfortable, and I love it.
Whut. I'm so confused..
Ooooh those old gangers… OH THAT'S NOT THE REAL JENNIFER EITHER. Or… the original Jennifer.
Wait, there are three Jennies. FFFF.
EYES IN THE WALL OH THAT IS CREEPY AS FUCK I WILL HAVE NIGHTMARES.
Eyes? So creepy.
WTF IS SHE EATING PEOPLE DID SHE EAT RORY???
WTF RORY WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS DYING???
OH GOOD NO RORY IS ALIVE.
Shit just got realer than real.
"In fact, if you have a better idea, I'll take you to a planet where everyone is all ears!" XD OH DOCTOR.
Poor Rory, he never get's a break.
"You tricked him into an act of weakness, Doctor."
"No, I tricked him into an act of kindness. I like the sound of that act of kindness."
Oh Doctor/Ganger!Doctor, why you so cool?
WTF is THAT??? It looks like something out of freaking Silent Hill.
Hello TARDIS!
"Oh, she does like to make an entrance!" XD XD
Ooooh… Amy got schooled. Very good social experiment, Doctors.
WAIT.
WAIT.
"Push Amy, but only when she tells you to."
WTF IS GOING ON???
"She does like to make an entrance."
Sexy/Idris to the rescue.
Doctor/Ganger!Doctor, what're you doing?
"In their bones, people are good."
… I think the Doctor is a bit naive for being 900 years old.
BREATHE.
WTTTTFFFFFFFFFFF???
OH MY GODS.
I THINK I KNOW.
OH MY GODS AMY IS FLESH.
I do not like Creepy Eye-path Lady. Do not like her at all.
HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT.
OH MY GOOOOODS WHY DO I HAVE TO WAIT A WEEK TO SEE WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN?!?!?
WHY DOES IT LOOK LIKE AMY'S GOING TO GIVE BIRTH AND THEN THE BABY'S GOING TO BE SUCKED DOWN A TUBE???
OH MY GODS THIS EPISODE.
Down a tube? How did I not notice this? FFFF.
I shrieked and recoiled from my TV when Borg Lady appeared to Amy. SO HORRIFYING
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