In the thirteenth and final episode of the second series of Doctor Who, the Doctor faces a war between the Daleks and the Cybermen. But will he defeat them if it involves an unbearable sacrifice? If you’re intrigued, then it’s time for Mark to watch Doctor Who.
It’s been an ongoing difficulty of mine to properly articulate why I like Rose Tyler so much, particularly because as this show has gone on, she’s proven to be not all-that-likable after all. She is uncomfortably selfish, is determined to interject herself into everything, regardless of knowledge and experience, and will often times do things without the slightest thought to what those actions will do to those around her.
I have waded into the comments on my reviews for this show and I’ve seen a lot of you express distaste for the Doctor’s first companion in the revival series and I’ve refrained from ever debating the issue with any of you. I understand it. I get it. She isn’t really the most likable person on television. Who am I to tell you who to enjoy, especially in the realm of fictional narratives?
It’s sad that it took “Doomsday†to finally trigger a coherent reason why I am so drawn to this character, gigantic flaws and all, but now I finally know:
Rose Tyler and myself are alone.
I don’t intend for that statement to be a hyperbolic, dramatic sentiment of fleeting sadness. Obviously, there are people in my life who I am close with, I have a semblance of a normal family these days, and I’ve had a boyfriend or two in my years. It’s all to an extent, though, and it’s always been very difficult for me to explain this to anyone.
I’ll start by referencing something I spoke about briefly during one of my Mark Watches ‘Firefly’ reviews because it’s a great anchor to start at. My atheism mostly started out as an instantaneous rebellion against the God I was raised with, and then the God who abandoned me when I sought him/her/it out in my teens. It was the only way I knew how to express the absurd emptiness I felt inside of me, and it was only years later, after a lot of reading and talking with many people, that I felt I was able to pin down a sense of cosmic loneliness as the reason for my struggle against a deity. The label “atheist†worked for me, as it does for others, because I knew that it was nothing but a lie to say that there was something else out there in the universe, at least for me.
That’s obviously a very personal view at the macro sense of the universe, but I’ve refrained for many years discussing how that relates to me in the micro sense of the word. I am not just lonely. I am alone.
I generally don’t share this with people because most will quickly try to point out and erase this sensation as quickly as possible.
“But Mark, we’ve been friends for years. Am I not good enough?â€
“Surely you’ve been close with at least one person, right?â€
“You don’t even feel close with your brother or your mom?â€
“Mark, if you felt that way, why would you stay with a boyfriend for three years?â€
I suppose that, on the surface, they’re all valid points. I’m not alone in the physical sense all that often, but for any of you who have dealt with depression, loneliness, and (I’ll get to how this relates) abuse, you too understand that being alone is almost never a physical state. You can have thousands of people around you and still sense that you’re standing in an arid desert, devoid of the human interaction that seems to come so easily to everyone else.
I first became aware that something was different with me after I moved from Boise, Idaho down to Riverside, CA. In Boise, my brother and I were the only dark-skinned kids in our classes and only two of a very tiny handful of people who weren’t white in the entire school. I was made aware of this state even more aggressively when I moved to a city that was NOT overwhelmingly white and now, my brother and I stuck out like sore thumbs. We were students who looked like everyone else, but we were the only ones who didn’t speak Spanish. And we were treated as outcasts for this.
This pattern continued for me through all of my public schooling, through my years in college, and for a few years after that. It seemed easy for me to simply place the blame on other people and ignore the fact that there was something at work deep inside me that made me feel such a glaring disconnect from the people I would meet or the people I would see every day of my life. (Can we just call this Speshul Snowflake Disease? Because I most certainly had it there for a while.)
It’s not an issue of being different because I’m not at all that different from most people. It’s an issue of love, affection, and the disconnect that occurs in my brain when I experience these things.
I’d like to think that Mark Reads Harry Potter helped to free a lot of what has happened to me from the pain it’s been causing me for years. I believe that, even at a young age, I was always a person who was filled with an overflowing amount of love and I believed that I could give it to anyone, that I could care for people and make them happy. Over the years, this has manifested in rather obvious ways, such as my constant desire to do nice things for people, even if it is at direct expense to my own well-being, or to seek out affection from people (again) even if it is at direct expense to my own well-being. I crave affection and praise all the time and criticism and negativity can actually trigger depression. Yes, it is literally that extreme sometimes and there’s nothing I wish more some days that my brain would just work and not associate these things with each other.
But I know it’s not my fault and that’s the real important thing about this. I know that my affinity for affection was only amplified by the abuse and bullying I experienced growing up, that my need for affection was only increased as I was exponentially denied it for so long. Perhaps that’s even the reason why I feel this way. I think I’m ok saying that.
I am alone. At all times, in all places, in all situations. This is not hyperbole. When I am having a conversation with you, no matter who you are, I feel that I have no real, genuine connection to you. I feel like you have experienced a world I will never come to learn or one I was never given. It’s not that your life is better than mine or that mine is better than yours. When I see people who get along and understand everything there is to know about each other, I know that I have never felt that. When I see people talk to each other naturally, with things in common, I know that, at best, I’m merely pretending. I never quite feel real.
It manifests itself in many ways and in many groups of people. Even after spending years with them, I never felt that I fit in with my band. Or my coworkers. Or my family. Or my close circle of friends. I’m easily triggered by things and reminded of my childhood, so in every day conversations, I’ve learned to suppress the haunting feelings of despair and physical pain that can come up by someone merely saying a word or reminding me of a show I once watched or a song I just heard. It’s almost as if there is a second conversation happening inside of me simultaneous to what is happening outside of me.
It honestly took me writing my reviews for Harry Potter for me to even be able to talk about this, but being abused and bullied ruined me. I don’t think I’ll ever revert back to the kid I was before any of that happened.
This is not to say I have not progressed since I was a teenager and, actually, I’ve improved a lot since this sensation first became apparent. It also directly relates to Doctor Who. I’ve been in a long relationship and while I certainly felt alone the entire time, I got REALLY close to that feeling finally going away. It didn’t, but it was the first time I felt it subside in my life.
I remember the feeling when I ran away from home back when I was 16. Or the day I started college. Or the first day in my apartment in Silverlake, or the day I moved to Oakland or stepping into The Wizarding World of Harry Potter. Those were good days, freeing days, days I felt that maybe I had a hope of experiencing life in a more normal way.
Fuck, I hate using that word. Normal. But I don’t know how else to express it. I want it and I crave and I don’t know how else to change it. So, instead, I’ve simply accepted it. I was a loner as a kid and I’ve come to truly embrace it because I’m not sure it will ever go away.
There’s a moment in “Doomsday†that struck me with a visceral power: Rose Tyler just got taken to the parallel universe by Pete and she rests against the wall that once held the bridge, foolishly hoping that maybe the Doctor can sense that she’s on the other side. And maybe he actually can, as he lingers on his side of the void. Devastated, Rose begins to cry harder and then the Doctor walks away and FLOODWORKS FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.
I understand that Rose is flawed and I won’t argue with that, but there’s a part of me that will always be able to empathize with Rose’s frantic desire to feel like she belongs, to feel that there’s someone out there who can take away her sense of loneliness and boredom. It took me two full series to understand it, but now I know why she was willing to give up her mother and her boyfriend to be with the Doctor: he made her feel less alone.
THOUGHTS
- Way more people died in this episode than I expected, especially Yvonne Hartman. I knew that Rose was on her wait out and I actually believed that Jackie was going to be converted to a Cyberman. AGAIN.
- Hmmm, yet another show that demonstrates that traveling in between parallel universes can actually cause physical damage to them. HMMM.
- “You are superior in only one respect.†“What is that?†“You are better at dying.†;DSAJ;ASDFJ;ADSFDSLFK COULD DALEKS ALWAYS BE SO WITTY.
- “Daleks have no concept of elegance!†“This is obvious.†JASD;FHASDFKLJFSD ADFKLS;
- “Can you see anything that can tell us where you are? Anything at all?†“OOH! A FIRE EXTINGUISHER!â€
- The Genesis Ark was a DALEK PRISON. Holy god, could never have guessed this.
- Ok, look, I was all SRS BSNS in this post, but now time to mock myself: I totally cried for TWENTY MINUTE STRAIGHT during this episode. Actually, this is an accurate depiction of my viewing experience during “Doomsdayâ€:
- Yeah, I started to lose it when the Doctor threw that yellow button thing over her head and pressed it, sending her back with Alternate Pete and Mickey. Then the lump in my throat starting hurting when Rose slipped into the void and Pete saved her. Then I totally lost it when the Doctor walked away from the wall.
- The thing is (WHY AM I SEPARATING THESE WITH BULLET POINTS), this episode’s ending could have been unbearable and campy as hell, but the scene in Bad Wolf Bay was HEARTBREAKING. Oh my god, FULL ON WATERFALL.
- THE DOCTOR DISAPPEARED BEFORE HE COULD TELL ROSE HOW HE FELT. I have now decided I cannot deal with David Tennant crying. I cannot. Man, what a moment.
- WHAT THE FUCK. WHY IS CATHERINE TATE ON THE TARDIS???? Is she the Doctor’s next companion???? Oh my god.
- All in all, one of the best-executed episodes of the entire series. SRSLY.
Ok, so I’m watching the next Christmas special, “The Runaway Bride.” After that, it’s time for an episode of classic Who! I foolishly forgot to include a poll this time around, so I randomly chose The Three Doctors serial, which is available on Netflix Instant. The review for that will go up on Wednesday, and then I’ll start series three!
YAY DOCTOR WHO
I tried to rewatch this series along with Mark but I had to stop after Girl in the Fireplace. I just couldn’t handle it all again. I still have bad dreams where I'm Rose and I'm trapped without the Doctor. I don’t think I’ll ever really get over this episode.
:’(
<img src="http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d173/ppyajunebug/Doctor-RoseDoomsday.gif"/>
BRB CRYING FOREVER.
Seriously, I've seen this episode like 12 times and I still cry like a baby.
Just…Rose…the Doctor…SHE LOVES HIM AND HE ARGH.
<img src="http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d173/ppyajunebug/15x31x0.gif"/>
TY for bringing the sad wall gif. I think we all need to wallow in sadness for a bit now. 🙁
*passes the chocolate*
There's something about those dark brown eyes of Tennant's that just make him carry sad and sincere really, really well. Poor Doctor. Poor Rose.
Wow, that was some review. I think lots of people cried at the ending, I certainly did. Here's Neil Gaiman's post from just after it aired:
"When I got home from recording, I watched the final part of this season's Dr Who last night with Mike and Maddy (and our friend Sarah). Maddy watched the end of it with her head on my chest, and it was only after it was over that I discovered that my tee shirt was soaked with her tears.
I love that Russell Davies and his team have built something I can watch with her, that she cares enough about to shed tears over… "
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2006/07/good-fictio…
I like Rose because I think her heart's in the right place, despite her flaws. I also like flawed characters in general. The passion of fandom means that people can get quite intense in their judgement of the characters in the series. I think it is important not to get too buffeted by the strength of the opinions, your personal take is just as valid.
The Three Doctors isn't a bad choice as it's a lot of fun, but be gentle with it – I doubt it's at the top of anyone's favourite episodes list. You'll get to meet the first three Doctors though.
I think The Three Doctors is a decent enough choice just because you get to meet Two and Three in one go and I enjoy both of them. Although I'm trying to remember who the companion in that one is. Is it Jo? I like Jo.
I think it's Jo.
I am excited beyond words for Gaiman's episode of DW this season! It's so great when people who just love a show get to write an episode.
Oh man, the end of Doomsday wrecks me. I think I've rewatched it twenty times, and I still sob like a baby. I knew Billie was leaving the series, but I was NOT PREPARED for what it was going to be like. Rose is still tied with ~someone else~ for my favorite companion, and Secret Diaries of a Call Girl did not satisfy my Billie Piper quotient in life.
Rose just baaarely edges out ~someone else~ for my favorite companion too, but I have a sentimental attachment to Rose because she was my first companion.
Also, speaking of Secret Diaries of a Call Girl, new episodes start soon!!!!! Words cannot express my excitement for that.
I am going to guess that your someone else is the same as my someone else, but won't say more for fear of spoiling!
I need to download that – I am woefully behind. I don't think I've actually finished series 3, because I didn't like the boyfriend she had at the time.
Well, I'm more behind than you, I only watched s1. Rewatching her in this has reminded me I need to watch the rest. I'd better catch up.
YAY!!! For Secret Diaries of a Call Girl. I hated that show on first watch, and then in the meantime I became an internet sex worker. Not the same as Miss Belle de Jour by a long shot, but enough commonality in experience that it totally flipped my opinion of the show.
You know, having just read through the Mark Watches Firefly, I finally figured out why Secret Diaries never really did it for me. Something Mal said to YoSafBridge turned on it's side a bit. "I've seen Billie Piper without her clothes on, but I've seen Rose naked." , and Rose being nakedly vulnerable, without pretense, wounded and angry, is some damned compelling TV.
Billie Piper kills it in this episode. The very end and the way she barely chokes out, "Am I ever going to see you again?" Tears.
When Billie cries, I cry. She is a phenomenal cryer, much like Alyson Hannigan. Some people's faces are just made for tears, which maybe makes me sound like a horrible person, but it's true. For example, Claire Danes has an uglyface cry – like in Romeo and Juliet, it just made me laugh. Billie and Aly on the other hand actually RIP MY HEART OUT OF MY CHEST AND STOMP IT INTO TWO THOUSAND PIECES.
Have you seen the Shakespeare Retold with her in? It was ace
Oh oh! I haven't! Tell me more!
I was waiting for this 😀
I admit I didn't cry but did feel bad for all involved. I'll get down voted for this but I only felt relief at the end and this overwhelming feeling of something new on the horizon. I really liked Rose with Nine but at this point I was ready for something different.
Can't wait for you to get started on s3!
I love your for loving Rose Tyler. She's not perfect. She's messed up. She's flawed. But she's so real and human, and when I was 19 years old and watching this show for the first time I could relate to her so fucking much. I too didn't know what I wanted to do with my life and saying "fuck it" and leaving my family behind to actually DO something and something worthwhile just really spoke to me. So I love Rose Tyler for all of her imperfection, but also for her wonderful courage. Not even just the extraordinary heroic courage, but the basic courage to take a chance and really live life for herself.
I understand that Rose is flawed and I won’t argue with that, but there’s a part of me that will always be able to empathize with Rose’s frantic desire to feel like she belongs, to feel that there’s someone out there who can take away her sense of loneliness and boredom. It took me two full series to understand it, but now I know why she was willing to give up her mother and her boyfriend to be with the Doctor: he made her feel less alone.
YES. The Doctor understood her. She understood the Doctor. They just fit together. When they were traveling together, Rose wasn't just a lost girl from a council estate with no real future and the Doctor wasn't ~The Last of the Time Lords~, a lonely god. They were bigger than the sum of their parts. That's why they wanted to stay together forever.
This episode provides endless tears for me and I wrote like a bazillion words to try and express why I love it so much, so here goes.
Doomsday aka the episode that broke my heart. There are moments of lightheartedness, like the Dalek vs Cybermen verbal smack down and Jackie asking alt!Pete how rich he is, but generally this episode is full of sad.
A brief moment that makes me smile that I didn’t notice the first billion times I watched this episode, but noticed this time around, is that when the Doctor sees Mickey, he greets him with a fist bump. Haha. How far these two have come.
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/24l692o.jpg">
Rose, of course, is brilliant in this episode. She sees the Daleks and thinks fast. She knows that the Daleks might perceive her information about the Time War etc as useful so she uses that as a bartering chip for her life. And then she takes what might very well be her last moment on Earth to stick one to the Daleks, rubbing in the fact that she killed the emperor. It’s crazy how far she’s come since her awkward and unsure interaction with the Sycorax in the Christmas special. Now she’s actually taunting a Dalek to its face. And she figures out why the Daleks are keeping her and Mickey alive- the fact that they’ve traveled in time means they can be used to open the Genesis Ark.
The Doctor in this episode is his wonderful Doctor-y self. Wearing amusing 3-D glasses, figuring out how to save the world, making decisions for other people. Oh Doctor. He’s especially great in his interactions with Jackie.
The Doctor: [Over the phone] Jackie! Where are you?
Jackie Tyler: I don't know! Staircase!
The Doctor: Can you see anything that can tell us where you are? Anything at all?
Jackie Tyler: OOH! FIRE EXTINGUISHER!
The Doctor: [Sarcastically] Yeah, that helps!
The way the Doctor and Rose work together and play off of each other is just fantastic. Just like in the previous episode, Rose totally plays along with the Doctor’s schtick.
Doctor: Isn’t anybody going to ask me “what is it with the glasses?”?
Rose: [smiling] What is it with the glasses?
But then this little world that the Doctor and Rose have created for themselves starts to collapse, both literally and metaphorically. So in classic Doctor fashion, he make a decision for Rose and decides that Rose should go back to Pete’s World with Pete and Jackie. He thinks that he’s created this nice little family for her- Jackie, Pete and Mickey- and that he can just drop her in the middle of it and she’ll be happy, but Rose isn’t having any of that. The Doctor can’t make those kinds of decisions for her.
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/k9fip3.jpg">
<img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/2zohg69.jpg">
<img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/33tni1x.jpg">
Doctor: That’s why you’ve got to go. Back to Pete’s world. Hey! We should call it that. Pete’s World. I’m opening the void, but only on this side. You’ll be safe on that side.
[…]
Rose: But you stay on this side? […] I’m supposed to go to another world and then it gets sealed off? Forever. That’s not gonna happen.
Pete: We don’t have time to argue.The plan works. We’re going. You two, all of us. [leading his men off to the center of the room]
Rose: I’m not leaving him.
Jackie: I’m not going without her! […] I’ve had 20 years without you, so button it! I’m not leavin’ her!
Rose: You’ve got to.
Jackie: Well that’s tough!
Rose: Mum, I’ve had a life with you for nineteen years, but then I met the Doctor, and all the things I’ve seen him do for me, for you, for all of us, the whole stupid planet and every planet out there. He does it alone, Mum. But not anymore. ‘Cause now he’s got me. [the Doctor slips one of the transporter necklaces over Rose’s neck and Pete activates the transporters]
Oh geez. The look on the Doctor’s face as he sends Rose away is heartbreaking. And you know, I can see how some might read this scene as Rose being clingy or something, but that’s not what it’s about. It’s like Rose says in “The Impossible Planet”, everyone leaves home in the end. Rose has made her choice. The Doctor isn’t sending Rose away because he wants to get rid of her (seriously, just check out the look on his face). But he’s making decisions for her (just like in The Parting of the Ways). He’s set up this nice little family for Rose where he thinks he can put her and make her happy. After all, that’s what happens with so many of his companions. They find some person or reason to leave and then he’s alone again. The Doctor has handed Rose those things on a silver platter. But that’s not who Rose is and it’s not what she wants. She’s not traveling with the Doctor as some sort of lark. She’s committed to him and to life in the Tardis. She wants to keep traveling. She meant it when she said “forever”.
The Doctor: You're never gonna see her again, your own mother!
Rose Tyler: I made my choice a long time ago. I'm never leaving you. So what can I do to help?
The Doctor isn’t going to fight it anymore. I think he’s finally accepting that Rose meant it when she said forever. He’s finally on board with Rose’s choice to leave her family and stay with him, and just as he’s at that point, he loses her.
<img src="http://i54.tinypic.com/awp3ra.jpg">
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/2lrrr7.jpg">
The way that the Doctor screams Rose’s name is enough to rip your heart out. You can hear all the pain and terror of losing her in his voice.
Gosh you're a good writer (and Mark too). You put to words many many things that I feel. I think the relationship between the Doctor and Rose is beautiful and heartbreaking. I cried so much in this episode.
God I love your analyses of Rose and the Doctor. They so PERFECTLY encapsulate why I love them and why they're so heartbreaking.
I WENT TO VOTE THIS UP AND ACCIDENTALLY VOTED IT DOWN 🙁
Noooooooo, not my precious ego!!!!!
YEAH WELL MAYBE I WILL "ACCIDENTALLY " UNFRIEND YOU ON LJ. SO THERE.
(lol jk jk I would never do that. Having awesome people like you on my flist is vital to Karen's Method of Procrastination)
The little yellow number has become so illogically important to me. I don't even understand the formula for how it is calculated but I feel strangely victorious when it goes up.
Just wanted to say I've enjoyed reading your comments through this. Tis good stuff. 🙂
I love that this comment is closing in on 70 votes 🙂
I bawl every time I rewatch the last minutes of this episode–from the moment when I can feel it coming. I can't even listen to "Doomsday" from the soundtrack without crying. RTD knows how to work an emotional moment, and he manages to break my heart into a million pieces in this episode. Rose was never perfect, but she and the Doctor fit together perfectly. Aagh–have to go cry again just thinking about it.
"I'm burning up a sun just to say goodbye"
I think that says it all.
Ugh, I LOVE Rose. And I understand why people don't, but like you said, she's flawed, but that makes her even better.
I was a complete mess when I watched this episode for the first time. OH GOD. ajkhfalkghaghalksgagkla I need a TARDIS for my creyes.
Crap Mark, this AND the end if Catching Fire on your plate right now… How do you cope?!?!?!?
RIGHT. How did it end up this way????
Just lucky, I guess 😛
IT'S BECAUSE YOU WAITED OVER THE WEEKEND TO WATCH THE SECOND PART OF A TWO PART SPECIAL SEASON FINALE!
Nah, I'm joking. Also, CATHERINE TATE! In a WEDDING DRESS! I believe you will enjoy the next episode. 😀
Oh, my god, this episode. I also started to lose it when he sent her away, but I was so happy when she came back and then the lever started slipping and I nearly screamed out loud (which would have led to strange questions from my parents), and after that it was pretty much out and out bawling until the end of the episode, and for a good five to ten minutes after that. I couldn't handle it. I almost never cry during movies or shows, but this…this killed me so much that I don't now if I can ever watch it again (despite how amazing it is–I think it's one of the best finales I've ever seen of any season of any show). I am a huge Rose fan, and a Rose/Doctor fan, and I accept and admit that yes, she has flaws (but who doesn't?), and yes, she's selfish and can be really stupid at times. But this…the part where the two of them are on the opposite sides of the walls in the parallel universes, and Rose is screaming and pounding on the wall, and the Doctor just presses his cheek to the wall on his side, absolutely stoic and silent…I can't imagine how anyone couldn't not feel for the two of them at that moment. And the whole not getting to finish his sentence at Bad Wolf Bay? I nearly died. Watching the Doctor break down enough to start crying, and actually shedding tears? One of the most heart-wrenching moments I've ever seen in a television show.
Okay, I have to say this. I actually mostly like Rose. Sometimes she irritates me, sometimes I just bang my head at her actions and go W? WTF?. But overall, I like her. She was my first companion, Ten was my first Doctor, and though I don't ship them together, I do like them both.
What I hate, what I cannot stand, is how many of her fans completely dismiss every other companions's validity, or unfairly accuse them of taking Rose's place, or hate them unfairly because they think other companions, especially new series ones, are 'OMG STEALING THE DOCTOR FROM ROSE!'
Newsflash, Cult of Rose, the Doctor is not anyone's property. He is allowed to have other friends and this does not in any way impinge upon his feelings (platonic or otherwise) for Rose.
In conclusion: Grow up, you whiny brats. You made me seriously dislike a character I had initially loved. While I still do not love Rose as I once did, Mark, your reviews have helped me rediscover how much I like her. Thank you.
Um. I don't know where you've been hanging out, but while I definitely agree that there was some crazy going around at the beginning of series 3, nowadays Rose fans are really drama free in my experience. Rose is my favorite and I adore her, but I love other companions too. I love Ace and Romana I and Sarah Jane and another complaining that is coming up in the series. I don't think Rose owns the Doctor. I just happen to enjoy their relationship and watching it play out on screen. I think you're over generalizing Rose fans way too much and it's a little bit rude, to be honest. "Whiny brats" was perhaps going a step too far.
I do realise that 90% of Rose fans are sane and sensible people, but the other 10% who have never stopped trying to deify her annoy the crap out of me. Also, there are still a lot of those particular Rose fans out there. Maybe I'm just unlucky, in that I keep coming across them? Could be the same few people, but I have no way of telling.
Well, given the bigness of the Doctor/Rose section of the fandom, it's not really surprising that the asshole ten percent is still a LOT of people. And, sadly, they're a lot louder than their sane brethren. And trollier.
I've been in the fandom (on LiveJournal) for three years and I've never come across these people that you speak of. There's a good chance that they all left in 2006 after Rose left the show, because I didn't step in until 2008, so they all would've been gone by that point. But if that's the case, it's been four years now and new people come in and old people leave and every single friend I have in the fandom currently (and we're talking mostly people who ship Doctor/Rose in some way just because that's where my interests lie as far as fic-writing/reading) is a fan and major defender of all the new series companions. It really gets old, though, to be constantly told that somewhere, years ago, there was a clique of nasty people who happened to share an opinion that you have, and forever more you are going to get lumped in with them, even though you've never met them and weren't even around at the time. So, defensiveness? Yeah, I'll cop to it. Because too many people are conflating correlation (I once met Rose fans who were crappy people) with causation (being a Rose fan makes you a crappy person) and being on the receiving end of that for years is no fun at all.
Most of the assholes who ruined Rose for people were really active in making fandom unfun back in 2007, when Martha was the companion and they were extremely nasty and there was a LOT of them. And I know they aren't really representative of Rosefen as a whole–I've got people on my .flist who are Rosefen and they are all good peoples–but they were vocal enough so that they colored everyone's impression of Rose and her fans at the time (and not for the good.)
I do agree that it's not fair of us who were on the other side of the Rose vs Martha war to treat more recent Rosefen like the people who made us miserable four years ago. And I'm sorry we have been.
I'm just going to poke my head in here for a second to ask your advice!
I've been pretty interested in checking out NewWho fandom, but I've been unsuccessful in my attempts to find a comfortable spot there. I seem to come across a lot of the crazy people (whether they are big on hating specific characters, writers, or other portions of the fandom) when I go looking for interesting discussion and fic. Finding a safe and interesting place in a new fandom can be a difficult slog through a lot of crap, and I've not been very lucky so far. I was wondering if you could point me to a few places on LJ that I should check out. I'd love to find a place where people have civil and fun discussions about current and past episodes, and a place to look for good fic about Nine and Ten.
I agree that you're overgeneralising and being a bit rude. Can we be nice, please, and not call people 'whiny brats' when no one here has started any such arguments?
ALSO, MARK, THIS MIGHT BE A LITTLE SPOILERY EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT DISCUSSING PLOT, JUST MY OPINION ON CHARACTERS. SO DIVERT YOUR EYES.
I'm a Rose fan and not a Martha fan, but from a writing perspective I think that we're led to these conclusions – I don't dislike M cause I think she's 'stealing the Doctor; I dislike her because she's under-developed and I don't relate to her at all. BUT I've always felt this was deliberate on the writers' behalf: Ten is still dwelling on Rose and comparing everyone unfavourably to her, and so by extension the show itself – which largely follows the Doctor's POV – does not pay her enough attention, and no, she doesn't measure up in comparison (in my interpretation/opinion). I'm not at all dismissing her 'validity', though I'm not sure what you actually mean by that – in terms of her actions, she's great, and she's really important. But as a companion, in terms of emotional connect to the Doctor – no, she doesn't do anything for me.
Plus one million.
Yes, yes this. I'm going to wait until this companion shows up to discuss her, though.
I only hate one of the companions. I don’t acknowledge another.
Most of them I love.
A certain one I loath forever. She just UHG.
But most of them. I adore. Rose will always be my favorite.
I think thats the thing, the Doctor take’s these ordinary small people. And he shows them who and what they really are. Fantastic they are.
The one I don’t like is cause, I feel she started off ‘big’ and ended much the same. MEH.
I’d say more but since I LOVE Rose its typical for me to hate who I hate.
But most female’s in DW? I ADORE.
(and the men. Oh the men.)
I love most of the other companions who followed Rose, with the exception of one. There is one companion that I cannot stand and it has absolutely nothing to do with "taking Rose's place" and everything to do with the fact that I just really fucking dislike her character.
Replying to myself – such bad form.
I just had a final though… and I'm potentially going to be late for a meeting to put this here.. HAHA.
What you mention about her feeling less alone – I think it is so very true, especially when you take into account what she says at the beginning of the first half – how she's willing to give up everything she has on Earth to live the rest of her life with him, regardless of what happens when she ages. Everything that might happen in the future/any pain or loss that might occur is totally worth what she has with him. It is so rare for someone to find that sort of connection and that sort of dedication to another.
Mark, I am SO with you on the Doctor crying. I simply cannot handle it. It's like…here's this guy, who is always on top of things, who is always the smartest guy in the room, who can take the bleakest, most hopeless situation in the universe and turn it around and save everyone. If he encounters something that he can't handle, what does that mean for US? It just breaks my heart.
Oh god, I couldn't handle it either. Especially because Ten is almost manically flamboyant and silly so much of the time, the quiet sadness is so polarly opposite, that it's heartwrenching. Almost as though he can hardly be himself, he's so overwhelmed with grief.
Rose was what made 10 who he is. He just goes off-kilter without her.
The Doomsday theme from the soundtrack is another of my favourites. It's just a wonderful piece of music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-DhjidQxk
The Iron Giant =
<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/501yjq.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
I think regardless of how people feel about Rose, the ending is heart breaking.
I love the Dalek v Cybermen slagging match. Harriet Jones reference as the person responsible for the Golden Age in Pete's world. ‘Keep an eye on her.’ – Frak you Doctor. Daleks have names in the Cult of Skaro *Insert Khan joke here* ‘What!?’ Worst way to ruin an emotional ending ever.
‘I was there at the fall of Arcadia. One day I might come to term with that.’ There's a few interesting references to the Time War in this episode from the Doctor fighting on the frontline to the Dalek prison ship.
While I love all this stuff I also think this episode is pretty horrifying. Through total panic and confusion with everyone shooting everyone else and trying to escape there are people marched to their death, and a terrible death at that. They don’t even have the mind control to make them unaware of what’s going on like last time. They are waiting in line knowing and listening to what's about to happen to them.*shudders*
‘I quite like hope. Hope’s a good emotion.’ Pretty much my life motto. I try to be a realist but I like to have hope.
Rose is conflicting for me so that's why I never really say too much or go in depth about her. I like some things about her and I dislike others but I'm not passionate either way about her. I understand people on both sides though. It all depends on the last episode I've seen or discussion I've read. Either way she was a Companion and is a big part of the show for various reasons to various people so:
Rose and family gif party?
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/2ijt7cw.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/2e4cmfp.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/5os8w3.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/2gsfxao.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Ugh, that comment about Harriet Jones, sometimes I hate you, Ten.
Totally agreed on the Doomsday theme. So heartbreaking, so beautiful. I've probably played that track more than all the other tracks combined. (Well, that and Song for Ten.)
I had written a long thing about why I don't like Rose's ending, in the context of the sort of discussions that went on in the Girl in the Fireplace review, but it was written before this review went up and I don't feel this is the right time to share it.
I've known for a while now that I don't ever seem to identify with fictional characters the way others seem to. I may find some characters more emotionally accessible to me than others, but it's rarely that I ever think about a character in terms of myself and whether I see aspects of myself in them. I think I just may relate to fiction in a different way than a lot of people do, where it's always distanced from me and I don't look for or even really see reflections of my life in the stories I engage with.
I'm one of the people who doesn't like Rose that much – mostly I'm ambivalent towards her character, but there are times and episodes where I rather dislike her, and times where I think, yeah she was cool. I do, however, separate characters from their writing and I do find flaws in the ways writers have written and portrayed Rose.
So, I've commented on the fact that I don't like how Rose is written before, and have contributed to those discussions that talk about the character of Rose in a negative light.
I'm wondering if anyone who identifies with a certain character takes criticisms of that character somewhat personally. I don't identify with characters, so I've never really thought about how criticisms of a character might make other people feel.
I honestly ask, because I've never been in such a position, does anyone takes such criticisms personally? Because any "yes" response would change my perspective on how I think about things in relation to discussion about the characterizations and writing of fictional characters.
Anyway, thoughts on the episode.
The Dalek mind extraction with the plungers is a lot more silly than scary to me. I think the plunger is the only aspect of the Daleks that doesn't really age well – made sense given the limited budget when they were created, but now? Doesn't really work for me.
Although the Daleks are pretty badass in this episode – love the line about Cybermen being better at dying.
I think my favorite part of this episode is the Jackie/Pete meetup – it's just simultaneously heartwarming and heartbreaking.
And I'm not sure how I feel about the absolute ending of this episode – on the one hand, really funny and hello Catherine Tate, but on the other, it might be just too much mood whiplash to handle.
I only Take It Personally when people say things like "Anyone who likes Rose is stupid" or "People who like Rose must be awful people because she's so selfish." Which are exaggerations of what people usually write, and I haven't seen anything like that on Mark Reads. But (a) I can understand if someone doesn't like a character as much as I do because there are plenty of characters I don't like and (b) even if someone makes rude generalizations about Rose Fans, they're still a stranger on the intertubes and I'm not super worried about their opinion. Unless that Internet Stranger is Mark and then I might be a little sad.
I don't take criticisms of characters I like/identify with personally. To me everyone has their likes and dislikes so it's only natural that everyone feels different. I may feel the need to defend depending on another persons opinion (if they're being rude) or I might want to make my position on the character clear but I don't think I've ever taken it personally.
I like this question, because this is something I've run into in other fandoms. For instance, I run a facebook page poking fun at Twilight (Note: NOT the fans, I repeat, NOT the fans!), and I'll get fans coming on making it sound like I deep-fry kittens. Why? Because they identify with Bella so much. I can usually calm them down and explain that some of my best friends are fans, and that they tease me for liking to read Jane Austen. Then there are the fans who just want to issue death threats…
The most notorious example of fans coming unglued would be when JK Rowling had hate mail from her own fans when Harry ended up with Ginny and not Hermione. Why? Because, as some explained, they were "just like Hermione". (I love Hermione, but I'm never a shipper)
I've never seen such extremes in Doctor Who, thankfully. 🙂
People that read Twilight tease you for reading Jane Austen? What? How? Why? This is insupportable. It is insulting to me in every possible way.
Okay, I know they are your friends so I'll stop, but really?
Let's say that those few friends aren't the majority of my Companions in Chaos. 😉 Since Shmeyer herself has said her characters are better than those of Austen, the Brontes, and Shakespeare, I guess I shouldn't be shocked that her fans are also confused enough to think so.
"You keep saying that word… I do not think it means what you think it does."
I can think of a couple of Austen characters that the Twilight characters may be better than, but those are all villains! When we did Mark Reads Harry Potter, I remember discussing with someone how much Bella was like Lydia Bennet, only I feel some sympathy for Lydia Bennet and her fate, and her actions are presented as being wrong. Anyway, Elizabeth Bennet, created in the beginning of the 19th Century, could kick Bella Swan's (is it Swan or Swann?) "modern" butt in terms of independent kick ass females. And brooding Darcy is so much better than brooding Edward. I guess Bella is something like Marianne Dashwood, but Marianne learns form her mistakes in the end.
I do see the comparison to Catherine and Heathcliff, but since I have never liked that "love story" I don't think it's a good comparison.
I will fully agree with you. The only characters they can trump were the ones Austen wrote to be negative.
We have ship wank in DW, but nothing, NOTHING will ever top the Harmonians.
This is so true. I have never in my whole internet life (10 years) seen anything that topped the crazy that some Harry/Hermione shippers came up with. I don't know why it worked out that way, but it did.
You probably don't see much DW shipping wank compared to other series because most of that wank is about the Doctor being even able to be in any kind of relationship that could result in sex.
But just like Star Trek, Doctor Who is an incredibly wanky fandom in general if you get into the older and larger sections of it.
Bella is not a character I identify with. And I do have a special hatred for Bella that I do not have for many characters in books. But I think it is me also having problems with the writer more than the character, and in general the book over the girl. But I don't like her. And now I feel bad because some girls identify with her, and I don't even remotely understand how they could.
I'm wondering if anyone who identifies with a certain character takes criticisms of that character somewhat personally. I don't identify with characters, so I've never really thought about how criticisms of a character might make other people feel.
Hm. Sometimes. Not like ~deeply personal~. But I do really relate to some aspects of Rose's character, like the fact that she really felt a bit purposeless in her life and left all of her home responsibilities behind. Like, that is the dream for me, sometimes. So when people berate her for that I do feel a bit judged. haha. But it's not like I'm personally offended.
Actually for me and ~relating to characters, it's the ones that I most relate to that I judge most harshly. Rose is more like who I WANT to be, but Martha is more the person that I AM. So I actually tend to judge her actions more harshly because I see her doing something and I know that it is exactly the same thing that I would do and it makes me frustrated with her because I'm frustrated with myself, if that makes any sense at all.haha.
I understand what you're saying there, but we'd best resist talking any more about Martha at this point. I'm sure those discussions will begin soon enough.
For me, it's not a definite yes or no really. It depends on the situation. Like, when people say Rose is really selfish went it comes to The Doctor. I relate to Rose being selfish with him, because I've been in a relationship where I know now, looking back, that I was selfish with that person. It's hard not to be when you care about and/or love someone so much. So, sometimes I take things like "Rose is so selfish with The Doctor, he should just get rid of her." a bit personally, because I've sometimes questioned if my ex only broke up with me, because everyone else he talked to (before talking to me about how he was feeling) told him he should. I do realize that my situation is different from Rose's so, if you were to say something like that, I might try to defend Rose, but it wouldn't be because I was trying to defend myself because I don't have to defend myself, because I'm not the one being criticized. I know that other people, as I've seen the few times I've ventured too far into the internet, that some people do act as though they are the one being criticized. I don't fully understand it, but I guess someone people do feel such a connection that they take even the tiniest bit of criticism to heart. That's why I try to be very careful in the things I say, especially online where my tone and attitude when speaking can't be heard or seen. Things are taken out of context when written down.
I'm the same about identifying with a character. I don't do that, it doesn't feel natural to me. I may love a character and will defend everything they might do but it's still someone else that's not even real so when I read some discussions I'm a bit surprised as to how personally some people get criticism to that character.
The plungers: I didn't like the burned corpse, I wish it'd be a deformed skull with damaged skin and hair but recognizable (it's a good thing I don't write for this or all the British kids would need years of therapy).
The Jackie/Pete was weird. None of them are the person they married but they're still drawn together.
I'm happy about Tate being at the end, I needed that mood whiplash.
About the taking criticisms personally – sort of, I suppose. I'm not COMPLETELY and UTTERLY obsessed with Doctor Who and it doesn't suffocate my life, but I'm attached to some of the characters (Rose in particular) and when people throw around terms and call her ugly, stupid, meaningless and annoying, it's like somebody slagging off your friend. It's not nice to hear or read, especially when (and very few call her ugly, but they still do it) Billie Piper is a real, beautiful woman, and she definitely doesn't deserve to be slated and called ugly. Even if it's a character, it's still her face being used, right?
Anyway, I sort of take it personally, yes.
I think Daleks still have the plungers purely for nostalgia. I mean, if they changed it totally so many people would flip, just look at the reaction that came from the release of power ranger daleks.
it's like somebody slagging off your friend
Yeah, I think this is well put. I always want to defend her, not because I think she's perfect, but because I understand why she is the way she is. Maybe that is because I identify strongly to her – and to her loneliness/restlessness that Mark talked about – but quite often I want to say, she's only young, she's only human, and she has a hell of a lot of heart, whatever her flaws.
Yeah, I think this is well put. I always want to defend her, not because I think she's perfect, but because I understand why she is the way she is.
This is how I feel exactly.
Yeah, this is it for me as well. I don't think I relate to characters the way I think that most people mean when they say that. Rose is nothing at all like me (if I had to pick a New Who companion who I'm most like, it's maybe… is this a spoiler?… the ginger one ;]–oh hang on there's two of those now!), but a character doesn't have to be *like* me in order to resonate with me and for me to really sort of fall in love with them. And then when someone slags them off, it is like someone slagging off your best friend, and that also turns a bit into slagging off your crummy taste in friends as well, if you actually like such a horrid person.
I mean, I'm a total Ten fangirl, and he is nothing like me at all! Me not being a Time Lord and all. And it does kind of sting a little when people slag him off because there is often an undertone of "Clearly this is the correct way to feel about this character and if you feel differently you ARE WRONG and your taste sucks and you're probably a bad person because you forgive him all these terrible things he's done that ~I~ will never forgive him for, because I am right and just." Oh, wow, me. Look at all that butthurt! Well, there you have it.
The thing is, I tend to not hate characters. My scale of how I feel about characters goes from "OMGLOVEFOREVER" on one side to "Meh. Take or leave." on the other. It doesn't go all the way to hate, or even serious dislike. If I find myself really edging towards the "leave" side of take-or-leave, I do just that: I stop watching/reading. I think I'm just easy to please? Anyway, I always wind up with a giant pile of butthurt over all these characters that I love being haaaated by someone, somewhere, yet I never get a chance to give that back, because I don't hate anyone. So it just kind of festers and I wind up feeling sorry for myself, which is generally the point at which I take a giant step back from the fandom and get some perspective.
For me, being a Ten fangirl is not the same as being a fan of Rose. I don't identify with Ten, except perhaps that he has the kind of personality I would love to be around all the time. It's not me, cause I'm not that much of a crazy person, but I love people who aren't afraid to be silly and so it's really attractive to me. Also he's my kind of physically attractive, which is the wirey-lanky kind. Beanpole. 😉
So that's an exception to 'my favorite characters are who I identify with."
–>"I'm wondering if anyone who identifies with a certain character takes criticisms of that character somewhat personally. I don't identify with characters, so I've never really thought about how criticisms of a character might make other people feel."
I was just having a similar discussion about this in Glee fandom. I don't know that I fully relate to any one character in DW, but I do recognize pieces of myself in them, sort of as a doorway into their character, like a method of relating to what they're going through.
I can't speak for everyone, but I prefer to criticize what and why a character does, especially if I relate to them. A well-rounded character should have faults, should do stupid things, should not always be right or always be wrong. I feel like critically looking at characters – especially those you love or relate to – tells you about yourself and makes you really look at the quality of the story. It's easy to be enchanted with something and ignore it's faults completely, but I feel like criticism enriches the experience.
Back to DW, I love the Doctor's "… What? What?! WHAT." moments. It was really funny, but considering the epic sadness that happened before it, I think you're right about the mood whiplash.
I'm not much of a fiction-empathizer myself, and I guess I'm fairly merciless about characters in my own way. My criticisms are about 90% Doylist – when I say I dislike a character, I don't mean that I think of that character as a person whom I dislike, but that I dislike this character as a storytelling device/role model/POV character/whatever mechanical purpose they serve.
So when I say I dislike Rose – well, I might dislike her if I met her in real life, who knows, but what I'm really saying is that she didn't work for me by the end. When asked to empathize with her, I mostly got annoyed. And being poked over and over with how WONDERFUL she is and "what, do you expect characters to be perfect?" only pissed me off more because I'm a contrarian, so there's some historical fandom anger in there too at this point.
My reflex response to the idea that people take character criticisms personally is, dude, it's not about you. You are not this character. I don't know you. But OTOH, I know it's possible to take any kind of argument, not just one about fiction, as a personal attack on your intelligence, morality, etc. rather than "just" a disagreement on some outside object. We argue our points because our convictions lie behind them, and you can't just untie that from your personal sense of worth. I don't think that knowing that makes me any easier on Rose (or anything else about a show that annoys me), but it does make me prickly as hell about anything that edges into an ad hominem attack.
"My criticisms are about 90% Doylist"
That sounds about right for me, too. My criticisms (as opposed to general apathy) of a character are just about always about the writing, where I think, what the hell is the writer doing and not just 'x is acting stupid'.
I would think there maybe is some correlation between people who take a Doylist approach and people who aren't, as you put it, "fiction-empathizers." And now I want a poll.
Thank you both for talking about Doylist, I had heard about the "literary agent" theory but I had no name for the other one. I'm very Doylist most of the time (but I'm becoming partial to Forsythian as explained here.
when I say I dislike a character, I don't mean that I think of that character as a person whom I dislike, but that I dislike this character as a storytelling device/role model/POV character/whatever mechanical purpose they serve.
Pretty much.
No, I don't take it personally when people criticize characters I like, and generally when I really identify with a character, I do it because the character has shared experiences or similarities in childhood, personality or expression, etc, in common with me. I will, however, be harsher on their judgment of the character than I would otherwise with a character I cared less about, but I don't feel as if I myself am being criticized.
I'm the one who mentioned that it's hard for me to not see it as a criticism of myself when people criticize Rose because of how I identify with her.
Here's what that boils down to for me:
I don't care if you criticize her, and I don't think you criticizing her is you telling me I'm awful, or whatever, on purpose. I don't have a problem with you disliking Rose at all, and I won't ever tell you that you're outright wrong for doing it (because that's the point of discussions, to share differing opinions and provide support for those differing opinions). I understand that this is a fictional character.
The problem with me is, I'm selfish like Rose is selfish. So some of the things she does that are outright selfish and selfserving– those are things I would do if I was put in that situation. And I guess until Mark Watches I hadn't really noticed that those things that I would do are really NOT THAT NICE and NOT THAT GOOD. Like especially leaving my mom/family to go back to the Doctor at the very last minute because I'm stubborn and my mind is set on something and I'm not really thinking about anyone else but myself. And I'm being 5. Because at the point, Rose is being about 5. I love it, though. But I know I would do that.
And YES. I definitely tend to like best the characters I most identify with. If there isn't a character I can identify with, I have a hard time watching. This is a big reason why I'm not a fan of Torchwood. And also why Kaylee from Firefly is one of my favorite characters ever (of course, Kaylee is hard not to like and is not like Rose at all). Hermione is my favorite Harry Potter character. All for these reasons.
Okay, so your response is the most definitive "yes" I've gotten. So, I totally get why "I don't like x, they're mean" or whatever can be annoying and insulting.
But how do you feel about "I don't like how Writer is portraying x, I think it's cliche/stereotypical/not helpful to the text" – is that any less harsh to you? Or does it amount to the same thing – that the person doesn't see character x as particularly worthwhile, and that can be annoying?
Honestly, yes that is less harsh. But I think that then removes criticism of the actual traits of the character and puts the criticism on the writer, and that seems less directly connected to what I am identifying with.
I guess if the example is that you think Ten is a problem child because he's selfish, and you believe that the writers should have given him a completely selfless individual that's constantly questioning him to help him change and mature as a person instead of just giving him a mirror image of himself BECAUSE it does not help him mature as a character (which is important to the narrative, etc etc), then that feels much less harsh.
Cool. I'm glad it's less harsh, and is thankfully the way I tend to criticize characters anyway (by their writing). Admittedly sometimes I don't because there are certain character traits that grate on me (like a personal pet peeve), but I'll try to keep the discussion my question prompted in mind if I ever desire voicing those sorts of character-and-not-writer based criticisms aloud.
Doctor Who always manages to catch me off guard. I don't usually cry over shows, but when it comes to DW… yeah, fucking waterfalls. I'll never get over Doomsday. Rose/Doctor live forever in my heart. <3
The Daleks and Cybermen snarking at each other will never stop being hilarious "You are superior in only one respect!" "What is that?" "You are better at DYING!" Well done Nicholas Briggs
"You didn't marry again…"
"There was never anyone else"
Oh Jackie. You know, part of me wants to be all "But they're not really the same people the other loved and it's just an easy fix" or, something that makes a bit more sense but, well, I just can't complain, the end of the episode makes it look like they're going to make it work.
I could go on about my problems with Rose but, given the spirit of the review it just doesn't feel appropriate to do now, it's the end of her journey. I'll just say that I have my issues with her and leave her alone.
Catherine Tate! And, um *sits on hands to avoid spoiling*
I love the Jackie and Pete reunion but I did have the same thought about them not being the same people. I mean Pete did say they weren't the same so at least it looks like they're going in with their eyes open. Like you, I do like to think that they'll make it work.
One thing that always bugged me with the Pete / Jackie thing… I get why she's interested in him, I really do. Same guy but successful (and, y'know, alive). But I could never figure out why he wanted Jackie back. In his world she was (when we saw her anyway) a very distant, vain, cold woman who was clearly more interested in his money than him and had actually divorced him (or was in the process of). It's been three years since she died and I just can't help but feel he'd have moved on (and really, why would he want her back, especially when she seemed to get interested when money was mentioned? Surely a bad sign….).
In those three years, I think Mickey talked about Rose and Jackie and Pete probably saw she was a different person.
The Jackie on this World wasn't given a load of wealth far too young to handle it properly. This Jackie never got rich, but had to bring up a daughter on her own, and not become as selfish as Jackie from Pete's World who never had kids (to preserve her figure) and lived only for herself.
In essence, "Our Jackie" is the woman he fell in love with, but more mature and likely to be able to cope well with being rich. Alt-Pete on the other hand has matured past the chancer he used to be, has responsibilities (heck, it's implied that he's taken over running their Torchwood as well as his string of businesses) and would almost certainly take a second chance of happiness seriously.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I think kind of just, not even falling, but being in love with someone instantaneously is weird, but the way I take the whole Jackie/Pete thing is. Pete fell in love with Jackie and then they slowly fell out of love because of money or power or what have you. Jackie fell in love with Pete, but she never had a chance to fall out of love with him and has spent 18ish years idolizing him, remember the stories she used to tell Rose as a kid? So now Pete has a chance to not have those arguments and Jackie has a chance to be with the type of Pete she has always wanted him to be.
All that being said, it's like the end of Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. If Joel and Clementine have a chance, so do Pete and Jackie.
I like Jackie and alt!Pete together. I mean, here you have a Jackie who's had a long time to miss Pete and will appreciate him, as well as not being completely a completely spoiled cow like his Jackie was. They could make it work like they never could with their own versions of each other. When Pete finally drops the hardass act and says, "Oh, c'mere", I tear up.
"There was never anyone else"
Did anyone interpret the look Mickey and the Doctor gave each other on that line as "Er…men's pajamas? Satsuma?" Or is it just me?
Definitely not just you.
And the guy she borrowed the tow truck from at the end of last season, and the sailor Rose mentioned in The Idiot's Lantern, and who knows who else.
Well, no one else she loved enough to marry again. Romances. Sex. No marriage since Pete.
I genuinely started crying when the trailers for this popped onto my tv way back when. And I think what you said really captures the heart of Rose, she is always looking for someone who will take her away from the mundaneness of her existence, because she knows that she will always be alone. The Doctor did so much for her, but at the end when he walks away, not only is it tragedy 4eva; it kind of represents, (for me anyway) that she can go change the world on her own. Hee, the Doctor is like therapy :D. Anyway I just wanted to tell you that you are great, and I know how it feels to be alone, and to have been abused, and although I don't think I'm as brave as you when I grow up I hope I can be as fantastic as you 🙂
I'd just like to end with, ROSE TYLER, I LUV YOU 4EVER <3
A question for Mark or anyone else interested:
There are some details about what happened to Torchwood after this episode on the Torchwood s1 website. I don’t think they’re spoilery for Torchwood if you plan on watching it since they’re more background info that you don’t really need rather than plot points, hence online and not on the show. I was wondering is it okay if I post that info in reply to myself here so that it’s hidden and has a potential spoiler warning so that people who want to see it can?
*huge internet hugs for Mark and everyone*
I only watch Doomsday when I need to have a good cry.
I cry at everything. I watched the last two episodes of Gilmore Girls at 2am on Sunday morning and was left a sobbing wreck. NOT GOOD. Everything makes me cry, so no surprise that this episode makes me need to re-do my make up. Way bad idea to watch it in my break between lectures. IDIOT. From the moment when you think Rose might fall into the time vortex thingy, I'm gone. The look on the Doctor's face breaks my heart. I cannot handle it. I adore the relationship between Rose and The Doctor (and I ship them super hard) and all my friends totally agree with me. Rose ftw! I had to pause it before we got to Bad Wolf Bay so I could regain some composure before I started bawling again. I surprised my housemate didn't come to check I was OK- super loud sobs were coming from my room. Seeing DT cry broke my heart all over again- I CANNOT HANDLE THAT. Wowzers, mega word vomit.
Hugs forever, Mark. Depression can really suck your life.
For the longest time I was annoyed at how Rose said, at the start of last episode, that her life before the Doctor was nothing. It annoyed me because she had her mom and Mickey and friends (even if we never saw them). But then I realized what you say, that we can be surrounded by people but they are not here. The Doctor and Rose shared a very deep connection which explains why she spent a wole year (was it a year?) in Pete's world thinking about him daily.
Oh, God, I cried so much when this first aired. The scene in the Bad Wolf Bay is so heartbreaking and fantastic.
And the Iron Giant! you are evil, Mark, really evil.
*brb, crying*
Great season closer from RTD, albeit one that I thought at the time (and still do now) would have been much more powerful WITHOUT the Bad Wolf Bay bit. The Daleks and Cybermen bits were funny (though I stand by my part 1 comments – it's a shame the Cybers were such a non-threat coming into this episode and are then on the wrong side of a curb stomp battle). The Dalek stuff was well done (one Doctor… now you're scared, RTD at his best) and the effects work was great. Nice that Mickey got to be a badass but I WISH they'd had Rose be the one to stumble into the ark, Mickey really should have been allowed to drop his bumbling buffon schtick entirely.
That being said, and please note this is ONLY on rewatching, I have two major moments that knock me out of the story. The first is when the Daleks open the Ark. You have a million gazillion Daleks with no real threat to face that requires ALL of them and you've proven to be very very smart indeed. Why do you suddenly have a rush of blood to the plunger and leave Torchwood Tower standing? They're clearly monitoring the rift (very quick alert when it's activated) they know the Doctor (already established as their biggest threat) is in there and that the rift is 30 floors up in the air. Bring the whole bleedin' tower down just to be sure,worst case scenario it just slows the Doc down a little bit, best case he's under the rubble and very very dead. Same issue actually as I have with Parting of the Ways – the Daleks can obliterate continents yet invade the station on foot. Uh, hoverpads. Whatever. Excusible in that case on the grounds that they were nuts, these were meant to be uber-smart Daleks and they make the same mistake.
Big Gripe 2: Pete grabbing Rose. Yes yes, I know it's a great moment of TV but HOW exactly did he pull that off? They've got no way of monitoring what's happening in this world (as far as we know anyway and you really need to show that tech, even if only briefly, to be fair with the audience) so how the heck did he know Rose was heading for the Void? He doesn't even appear in the same spot he saw her in last but perfectly positioned for a grab. Plus he stays on his feet when the void is clearly pulling everything that ain't nailed down into it. And finally… why Pete? Yeah yeah, I know it's symbolic, accepting her into the family and everything but would Mickey REALLY not have gone through with him, even if only as a backstop in case he fumbled the catch?
Agreed on the Pete thing. It was nice she got to be with her family in Pete's world but it was weird. Perfect timing, unaffected by the suction, prepared to grab. Did he know she'd fumble the lock?
And Pete got to rescue her or Jackie would have never looked him in the face again.
Here's a thought… why not have JACKIE do it?
I think part of it might be about it symbolising his acceptance of her as a daughter? Because of course Jackie would always want to save Rose, but not long before Pete had been insistent on not crossing the universes anymore and how Rose wasn't his daughter – and then he risks his life to come back and save her.
And in terms of how it happened…well he hadn't spent as much time crossing worlds as Rose so maybe he didn't have as much void stuff on him to drag him through the rift perhaps? And maybe he just came back to bring her with him, but straight away saw she was in danger so immediately reached to grab her? I know they're flimsy, hand-wavey explanations but they are what get me through it anyway!
Some good points you've brought up. I'm kind of surprised they didn't have her push the button herself, all things considered.
Ta, there's a lot of small nitpicks that go alongside 'em (e.g. why did Mickie bring the BFG along but NOT a spare transport disc thingy? Seems like the only way for you to get back to the world you're calling home would be something you'd want to carry spares of.) but I'll mostly forgive 'em for the needs of plot. The Pete / Rose thing annoys the crud out of me as it would have been SO easy to fix! Just show a monitor in alt!Torchwood's control room showing our world when the Doctor is taken there. Done, all timing problems explained. Yes, it's magic tech but who cares! How does that scriptwriting thing go: If you're going to use a gun, show it above the fireplace first.
Re: gripe 2. Yeah…. I don't see how that could have happened, but I'm willing to accept it because I don't see any other way to get her out of it, and I *want* her to live.
My take on Pete was that he was monitoring the rift, and he always intended to go grab Rose at the last possible second. It sucks that he wouldn't respect her choice, but I can see it. So he configured his button to zap him to Rose, grabbed her, and got back.
Pt2: Yeah I thought it was totally rediculous at the time, I think they wanted the audience to expect her to die untill literally the very last second but it's still not believable at all. However I don't really expect a lot of that in this show anymore, especially in the finales.
Good point about Jackie saving her though.
I'm in complete agreement in that it would have been even more powerful without Bad Wolf Bay. Think we're in a minority, though.
I won't say anything about Catherine Tate. Spoilers!
This is the point where the spinoff show Torchwood kicks in. Series 1 aired before Series 3 of Doctor Who started out and there is some sort of crossover late in that one. Usually I would tell anyone who is interested in seeing both to stick to this order, but it might stop you from getting done with Doctor Who before series 6 starts and that wouldn't be good. (Especially since you could probably not help noticing if certain actors are still involved or not).
You will never need to have seen Torchwood in order to understand Doctor Who, but DW might give you some Torchwood spoilers if you don't watch in order.
Before getting deeply into DW series 3, this would be a good moment to watch the first couple of episodes of Torchwood. That would be enough to establish the connections between the two series, so that so that some things later on will make a little more sense.
Yes, watching the first ep. already might actually be a good idea. 🙂
Whatever you think about early episodes of Torchwood might be VERY different from what you think about recent ones btw. Just so you know. There are wars going on about that, but I won't get into details now.
Probably the best thing RTD's ever written for Doctor Who. Doomsday does a great job of making you feel the pain the Doctor and Rose are experiencing, regardless of how you might have felt about their characters. I think it's the perfect send-off for miss Rose Tyler.
Heartily agree. I've had my issues with RTD's episodes for sure, but I can easily acknowledge this as probably his best work.
OH GOD,
JUST MOST DEPRESSING EVER.
Whenever I watch DD, I almost instantly start tearing up. As soon as the score begins at the beginning. And this from a girl who rarely cries at movies and TV.
This is probably my favourite finale episode, and my favourite series of new!Who. Rose had her flaws, but nobody's perfect. She was fantastic, and I don't care what the haters say. She was brave, gutsy, strong and independent. Also gorgeous, but all the companions are.
This is also my favourite writing from RTD. heartbreaking, but still with an epic plot.
<img src="http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfjkrvfOqM1qbnxzs.gif">
Also: ARE YOU GOING TO WATCH TORCHWOOD? Because that starts up now in the Whoniverse chronology, and IT IS AWESOME.
Yes. Torchwood.
Catherine Tate was the only reason I fully enjoyed Jack Black's Gulliver's Travels. I squeed when I saw her. My friend (who hasn't watched Doctor Who ever… *shakes head disappointed) looked at me funny.
Have you watched any of The Catherine Tate Show? – absolutely riotous. She's brilliant.
Not yet. I didn't even know it existed until recently. Must go watch it now!
She's the only reason I even considered seeing it. I didn't really like the book, and I don't find Jack Black funny at all, but when I saw her for .1 second on the trailer, I squealed.
I was dragged to the movie. I'd only seen one trailer and I didn't remember seeing her in it. Just Emily Blunt and Billy Connolly. I wasn't very impressed with the movie, mostly it was Catherine Tate, Emily Blunt, and Billy Connolly that kept me entertained. I don't mind Jack Black. I just don't believe Amanda Peet as the "dream girl" and she kind of annoys me. I think it's her voice.
Ahhh I can’t wait for you to do the runaway bride @_@
EEEEEE CATHERINE TATE YAY!
Sorry, I just love The Runaway Bride so much it's unhealthy.
Okay, back to the actual post.
I once cried for 20 minutes over a Doctor Who episode, too, but it's one that won't come for a long while. In any event, it happened for something like the reasons you described – because detached socially weird introverted me connected so hard and so fast with a story and a character it was utterly devastating to have my time with them end.
I honestly used to think something was wrong with me because for most of my life I never cried at any cultural product, ever – or at almost anything, really, except strong physical pain – because I couldn't connect on the level that other people seem to do all the time. That's subsided in the past few years, especially as I've finally gotten it through my thick skull that other people are not the confident unitary actors they seem to be, but confused and jumbled and often (in their minds) "faking it" in their own ways. It doesn't mean I suddenly feel like I'm on everyone else's wavelength. It's more like…we're all floating particles that occasionally collide. Or something. (Man, my use of figurative language gets even worse when I don't sleep, doesn't it?)
We haven't really collided, Mark, but you've given me an angle on Rose I never considered before. So thanks.
I think I know which episode you're talking about. It's one of the only other episodes that made me cry.
I'm trying so hard to figure it out…*puts on thinking cap*
There's been at least one episode per series that has made me cry since the reboot. This is a serious accomplishment for the show, since I almost never cry at movies/TV. My mother used to tell me I'm heartless, since she'd be weeping over whatever movie we were watching, and I'd be sitting there going "That was kinda sad. Popcorn?"
Yep, here's me, crying over a campy sci-fi TV show.
Oh man, THIS EPISODE! The first time I watched it, I cried. And I rarely ever cry at movies and tv shows, so that's saying something. I don't really know why I like Rose – I just do. Mark, I can't totally relate to all of your experiences, but having been in an abusive relationship for almost 10 years, I can totally relate to feeling alone. And I don't know, but I've always felt that way … not exactly as you describe, but even with my closest friends, they still don't really know me and I still feel alone. Maybe to some extent it's part of the human condition?
Ok, this comment is full of overshare, so moving on! I really loved that whole exchange with the Daleks and the Cyberman ("You are better at dying!"), who would have guessed that the Daleks would be so funny?? And Yvonne Hartman turned BAMF in the end, for Queen and country! What else…? There's so much to say about Rose and the Doctor, and about his own loneliness … I think he really would have loved to have her with him ~forever.~
Excuse me while I go cry ~all the tears.~
I found the meeting of Jackie and Pete both moving and hilarious. Both were and weren't the people that the other one knew, but for Jackie it did work out (and Pete), to the point where Rose was going to end up with the sibling she never had on this World (Pete dying before she could get one) and Pete as well as accepting Rose as his daughter (sort-of) with that rescue is going to have the child which he never had with Alt-Jackie. As far as Pete and Jackie go, Jackie started off as a poor single parent in a run-down estate and ended up the wife of a very rich man, Pete effectively ended up with the woman he first fell in love with, before she got carried away with living the life of the very wealthy.
Loved the look which passed between the Doctor and Mickey when Jackie declared that there'd "never been anybody else".
And Mickey is over Rose – he wasn't in her bed when she had the dream was he?
And Jackie appreciates him the way the alternate Jackie didn't, since she had to live all those years as a widow. 🙂
The scene where the Doctor and Rose touch the wall separating the two parallel worlds would’ve been the perfect ending – genuinely sad and touching and conveying all those emotions without words. The “second ending” at Bad Wolf Bay was a bit too much – too many words, too many tears, hammering “THIS IS SAD, YOU KNOW!!!” to the audience. Pity RTD doesn’t seem to know that sometimes less is more.
After everything that the Doctor and Rose had been through, there needed to be a proper goodbye. He couldn't just leave her there. I thought the ending on Bad Wolf Bay was sweet and sad and just perfect. One of my favorite scenes of anything everywhere of all time.
Karen, I love your Rose love and reading your take on the series. Can't wait to see your comments on season 3-5 🙂
TY for you compliment! haha. TBH, the reason I was able to write so much for series 2 was because I already have written a TON of meta over the years about it. So there was a lot of copy and pasting involved. hahaha. But I do have a lot of stuff already written about series 3 and 4, so I'm sure I'll be able to contribute my thoughts on at least those two series!
Also, I'm supposed to really be starting to work on my dissertation soon (which, unfortunately is not about Doctor Who- if only all my rambling about Doctor Who was academically viable…), so hopefully I'll still have time to participate in the comments here.
I have nothing to add except to say that I've upvoted every single one of your posts above, and if I could upvote them more than once, I would. A brilliant, beautiful, insightful and indeed professionally publishable piece of writing. Bravo!
*throws virtual flowers*
Oh hai there fellow dissertation avoider.
*high five*
haha. Aaaaugh. Mine isn't due until September, but the convener of the program wants us to have our proposals handed in by next week so she can assign advisers to us… AND THEN SHE WANTS US TO START DOING PRESENTATIONS ON OUR TOPICS IN MID-FEBRUARY. WHAT THE FUCK? That is not nearly enough time for us to put together a decent presentation. Ugh. BRB. Crawling back into my corner and sobbing.
oh ACK. I'm at an American university and in a program where the idea is that Ph.D candidates are a bit like wine or scotch and want some time to age. Unfortunately this means that there is virtually no due date on my diss, ever, and it's just sort of write it? Don't write it? Write it? Uh…
I have fallen into the black hole of thinking about starting to write and meantime I'm living abroad and trying to sort out visa and job issues so I don't starve while I write and it's all sort of an enormous mess.
*hides in the corner with you and sobs*
I'm working on my thesis. It is like a dissertation, only shorter. Also it is due sooner.
Mark, thanks for writing such eloquent words to give us a picture of yourself in light of an episode that moved me to tears. I don't think I relate to Rose in the same way you do, and we've obviously had totally different experiences. Nevertheless, this episode was brilliant and touching and tragic and I cried so much. But what I'd really like to say is that it's a great part of my day to read your reviews and it takes a lot of bravery and character to write about yourself so candidly. I really admire you for that, and wanted to say thank you for letting us all be involved.
All the tears and the sadfaces forever.
Every time they get to Bad Wolf Bay and Rose is crying (although her makeup never moves) and says she loves him and then the Doctor, who fixes everything and always saves the day, cannot even tell Rose he loves her and Rose stands there alone. Again. Waiting. Bereft. I start to cry. Okay, okay, I start to cry EVEN HARDER.
And there is the Doctor alone in his TARDIS and it is making the same noises it always makes, because the Doctor's life doesn't stop because he lost his companion. The Doctor's life doesn't stop because he got a new face. The Doctor's life never stops. It just keeps on going to the next place, the next adventure, the next person who will fall in love with him, but he doesn't get to stop. And he watches their lives breeze by him and he gets to be the "hero" and he gets to fix the problems, but he doesn't get to settle down and stay with someone. He gets to be with these people for their entire lives, but they don't get to do the same.
As he said "You can spend the rest of your life with me. But I can't spend the rest of mine with you. I have to live on, alone. That's the curse of the Time Lords." And maybe if he wasn't the last Time Lord and maybe if he didn't keep messing around with humans and maybe if he really wanted to be alone, maybe maybe maybe, it would be different. But there he is, alone with the TARDIS, a single tear rolling down his face, burning up a sun just to say goodbye. And it hurts. It hurts so much.
Wow. That that turned into a little stream of consciousness ramble. I'm sure later someone will post the Futurama gif with the dog and I will start crying at work. I apologize. I get emotional, and I loved Rose.
AND OMG You are so not prepared for season 3.
"As he said "You can spend the rest of your life with me. But I can't spend the rest of mine with you. I have to live on, alone. That's the curse of the Time Lords." And maybe if he wasn't the last Time Lord and maybe if he didn't keep messing around with humans and maybe if he really wanted to be alone, maybe maybe maybe, it would be different. But there he is, alone with the TARDIS, a single tear rolling down his face, burning up a sun just to say goodbye. And it hurts. It hurts so much. "
Oh, don't make me cry. Please. I'm at work.
Yep, me too.
1) Thank you so much for your honesty. I've had different experiences that led me to similar feelings, and reading something like this from a like-minded person is really awesome, and really liberating.
2) Not to lay on the drama, but I may spend the rest of my life being heartbroken over this episode. There's a running joke that I'm dead inside because I never cry, unless I've been re-reading Deathly Hallows or somebody's tried to saw my arm off, but this shattered me the first time I saw it. Total, open sobbing. I swore I'd never watch it again, a promise I was forced to revoke when I started re-watching it all with my parents. We just got to it the other night, and it happened all over again. The screencaps make me emotional. And when the score comes up on my iPod? Forget it.
I agree with everything you said about that moment. Completely gorgeous, painful, raw emotion. Watching it almost feels like intruding.
I feel 100% the same as your Point 2 :'(
'Completely gorgeous, painful, raw emotion. Watching it almost feels like intruding. '
This? So true, and a complete testament to everyone involved in making the episode.
SADDEST EPISODE EVER.
<img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_3lVOb8wvDlE/TTnM-LMmX6I/AAAAAAAABHY/100_GF_f5-E/rose.gif">
<img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_3lVOb8wvDlE/TT3Uf4uJLnI/AAAAAAAABKk/7B2czDfcqR8/tumblr_lfg7gb8Hex1qbsg6l.gif">
I always cry so much at the end of this episode.
And Mark, that was a wonderful review. I definitely think that loneliness that Rose and the Doctor feel is what pulls them together. That scene when Jackie asks Rose what she'll do after, if she'll ever settle down? That kills me. You can see in Rose's eyes that she never wants to go back to a life without the Doctor. She can't bear to go back to a "normal" life where she works in a shop and dates a normal boy and is bored all the time. And I definitely relate to that sense of loneliness, too.
When I first saw this episode, and it got to the part where they were separated, and then on the beach, I cried a lot, and my dad saw that I was crying and he asked me why I was crying and I had to say "Dad! It's sad!" And I might have put in something about how it was even more sad because they loved each other and the Doctor never got to say so (if that is what he meant to say, or course). It just broke my heart. Then for ages afterwards I would tear up just thinking about it, haha.
Something I head from the Doomsday commentary – The beach scene was supposed to be total secret, so only David and Billie and the most important crew got that part of the script. But when they gave the script to Shaun Dingwall (Pete), he didn't realize that it was supposed to be secret so there was one time he called out loudly "What's with this beach scene? It's really sad!" Or something like that, I'm going off memory.
Some Doomsday/series 2-related videos:
Blooper from Army of Ghosts- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJzvlc_1RxY
David as King Kong- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Fa98yEuEo
Series 2 Bloopers- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m2iOcKk6b0
Also, I think your randomly chosen episode is a good choice. I've read the novelization for it and I liked it. I think it'll be funny to watch it with the actual effects and not the ones made up in my head.
Commenting again, just because. The Dalek/Cyberman interaction in this episode had me DYING. I want a reality show featuring Cybermen and Daleks, ala Big Brother. Can you imagine them fighting over the washing up? Seriously, really smart writing. You've got your two uber-villains, and instead of them teaming up to take down the world, they just start picking on each other like playground bullies. I love it.
That sounds like it would make for a really awesome Children In Need/Comic Relief special.
Everything about their exchanges CRACK ME UP. The writers did amazing jobs for every part of this episode.
I've had trouble trying to figure out why I like Rose so much while finally watching all of her episodes, because she is flawed (selfish and varying degrees of dependent on the Doctor), but I think you've articulated it for me. I empathize with her desire to just get away and enjoy her life. You shouldn't take people who unconditionally love and support you for granted, but having them doesn't mean you're satisfied with life. Thanks for explaining it this way.
I'm sad to see Rose go, but this series set it up well, with an ex-companion, lots of loss, and promises to travel together forever. That's what makes these two episodes so good. The scene in Bad Wolf Bay makes tear up, your review makes me tear up, and the end of The Iron Giant makes me sob, so thanks for not posting the entire scene!
I've been debating whether to post this but after the superb job Mark did at dealing with Rose, why some (yo!) don't like her and why he does I felt it somehow right to do so.
My problem with Rose isn't really the character. I really liked her in the first Series and even in this Series there are episodes (Girl in the Fireplace especially) when I still do. Selfish characters aren't necessarily a bad thing in fiction, heck some of the best characters are that way. My problem comes exclusively from one direction and I hate to say this but… I honestly think it's RTD. Don't get me wrong, I will forever be grateful to him for bringing back Who and doing a superb job but he seems determined to treat Rose as always being right. There's never any lasting consequences for her actions and she does make the same mistakes over and over again. Yes, she's seperated from the Doctor at the end of this but a) she's not dead, which is a minor miracle under the circumstances and b) she's got her family back and has money, security and a whole new universe to explore. With Zepplins!. Frankly there have been many, many worse ways to leave the TARDIS.
I just wish that some, heck even ONE, of the oopsie moments she has (and there are several huge ones in her time on the show) were actually addressed and the Doctor give her a roasting for it. As it is it feels too much like the writer(s) trying to force how great she is down our throats and I lost my respect for the character. It's why we like flawed characters like, uh, no, can't use that example, spoilers… umm… oh, okay, Mal from Firefly. In many ways a selfish character, not perfect and makes a LOT of mistakes. But gets called on it, even makes the occasional apology and as a result we like them more. Same thing in real life, there are people you KNOW you shouldn't like, that you KNOW will screw you over in a thousand small ways but who aren't being malicious about it, they just don't realise. Those that apologise you tend to want to stay friends with as they tend to be worth putting up with, those that don't you quickly learn to avoid. Gah, sorry, that got away from me a bit, I'll revisit this with the much better example when it's not spoilerific.
Got away from you a bit, huh?
A good, and very fair explanation for why Rose grates you the wrong way. It's one of those things you don't really notice. But your brain does.
There's never any lasting consequences for her actions
Did you not watch this episode? I think that she faces some pretty awful consequences for her actions. The glibness that she and the Doctor demonstrated in Tooth and Claw comes back here and as a result of Torchwood that was founded because of the Doctor and Rose they are separated forever. Sure, she has a family and money, but that's not everything she wanted from life. It's not a horrible life, to be sure. She's working for Torchwood. She still gets to do the saving the world stuff, but what she wanted from life is to travel with the Doctor in the Tardis forever. I'll forgive her for feeling sad because that was taken away from her forever. Her choice was removed from her and she's stuck in a life she didn't want and is separated from the man she loves.
she does make the same mistakes over and over again
I really don't know if that's true. I think that series 2 is all about Rose growing and becoming more and more competent. She's not perfect, but there is a steady progression in her character arc.
the Doctor give her a roasting for it.
I don't think we need the Doctor to be the voice of the audience for us though. He's a bit enamored of Rose, so it totally makes sense that he wouldn't yell at her or make her feel bad about herself. RTD trusts the audience to watch the show and draw their own conclusions. We don't need the Doctor to tell us how we should feel about Rose. I'm perfectly capable of loving Rose and yet face palming at her sometimes.
Umm, I answered your very first question in my post. Yes, she's in a parallel world but she's in a position within that world that's a VAST improvement on where she came from. Considering that travelling with the Doctor is just about the most dangerous thing you can possibly do with your life I'd say she ended that journey pretty well.
I've gone into the second point in individual episodes and been kicked repeatedly for doing so. You disagree with me on this point, let's leave it at that.
The Doctor doesn't need to be the voice of the audience but when she managed, f'instance, to get him KILLED back in Series 1 I would expect just a little tetchiness. The trouble here is you're arguing that RTD trusts the audience to draw their own conclusions… but from my POV that's simply not the case. We have the Doctor laying out how she's supersmashingwonderful at every opportunity and no-one around her ever treats her as anything less than that in Series 2 either. If you're going to have the audience make up their own minds you present at least a fraction of the other side of the argument too. Again this is all my opinion, I don't expect to change anyone's mind with it.
Considering that travelling with the Doctor is just about the most dangerous thing you can possibly do with your life I'd say she ended that journey pretty well.
Well that might be how you see things, but it's clearly not how Rose does. She's entitled to her own wants and desires and what she ended up with wasn't what she wanted from life. I mean, I agree. People have left the Tardis under worse circumstances, but that doesn't negate the fact that Rose suffered a loss. The greater suffering of other people doesn't make her personal suffering less. Like telling someone "It sucks that *insert a Bad Thing here* happened to you, but hey! it could have been worse!" while they are still in the phase of mourning for what was lost is not exactly helpful.
but when she managed, f'instance, to get him KILLED back in Series 1 I would expect just a little tetchiness.
I assume you're talking about Father's Day? I think that part of the reason that never really gets addressed is because it would take us out of the mood that the episode was trying to set. I mean if the Doctor berated her right after he came back, that would be at the precise moment when Pete was dying. And anything after that would have been weirdly anti-climatic. The other reason is because I think that Doctor blames himself. He NEVER should have taken her there. He should have known better.
Well said, Stephen, well said. Agreed 100%.
This sums up pretty well how I feel about Rose. Thank you.
I agree with you about RTD. I'd like Rose a whole lot more if it wasn't for him (if that makes sense).
Ditto.
It makes total sense and I agree. Hopefully this isn't spoilery, but series 3 was my first Doctor Who experience and I went back to watch these first two, and I think that really had a big impact on how much I like Rose. I like her all right, but I think I would love her more if not for some of RTD's writing choices.
I don't quite get what you mean but I hope you'll elaborate when the time is right!
I was debating saying anything negative about Rose in this review, and ended up not in my post when you did.
So, I'm just gonna hijack this comment to respond about why I think RTD fucked up Rose's character, especially in this episode. And, you know, keep the negativity localized so people can skip over it more easily.
So Warning for non-squee below regarding RTD and his depiction of Rose's fate. Seriously, if you don't want to read a continuation of some of the discussion from the GitF review, skip the rest of this post.
I really, really hate that Rose being stranded from the Doctor is her "death" – we see Rose grow in confidence and aptitude so much during these past 2 seasons, and yet, this ending is just a major regression of her character for me. I dream of an ending where she considers herself newly alive – that she certainly doesn't need the Doctor to continue with her life. I dream of her realizing that she's grown from her experiences with the Doctor, and that she's a stronger person than she was at the beginning. She can still have amazing adventures and what have you with the Torchwood in her universe – and she's prepared for it. Why can't that be her ending – it gets one line, but couldn't we have seen it? Why couldn't seeing her moving on and being awesome be her ending? Why did her last image have to be her crying in grief? We're obviously going to see the Doctor move on, why can't we see that with Rose, too?
And I frankly wouldn't have guessed this ending given the rest of the season – from School Reunion Rose learned that sometimes the Doctor leaves, she was there in Reinette's story, and it seems pretty obvious then that there probably wouldn't be a forever with her and the Doctor. And, what, she didn't learn anything from any of that, I guess. I had thought that her progression in ability to deal with the weird stuff on her own in this season would have led to the ending I wanted for her. But apparently she's dead without the Doctor.
So this ending will always make me leery about RTD – he clearly likes Rose so why, why give her this ending, this, what I consider, degrading ending. Why make her story end with her being dead without the Doctor? Why does a man have to "complete" her, to give her "life?"
I want to make clear my criticism does not rest on the fact that she chose to stay with the Doctor – that's her decision. It's the fact that she considered the alternative a death. And I firmly believe that she considers it a death, and that it's not simply a play on words about being declared dead in her original universe.
I don't care it's a metaphorical death, that oh, it's the season finale so let's wring the audience's heart. Given the world we live in, I expect an awareness on RTD's part that such an ending is problematic. That Doctor Who is not a show that stands alone from all other stories we tell, but is part of a larger narrative that constantly tells us that men are more interesting and more powerful and more capable, and that women are defined by the men in their lives. Given the society we live in, I desperately want this show that I love to not present a narrative that portrays a woman as "dead" without her man.
I think RTD's writing is sometimes hit and miss, but that overall he's done some good writing for this show and has been a pretty good showrunner, and he gave me Doctor Who so I appreciate him for that. But I'll never consider myself a fan of his, largely because I cannot accept this ending and things like it.
And there's even more I could say about why I don't like RTD's writing of Rose, but I'll leave that for later.
women are defined by the men in their lives
Bingo. No man = death, at least according to RTD. Oh, and beware of that Harriet Jones, she might protect your planet without a man's blessing.
But he doesn't! I saw a few more interpretations other than that her life was over without the Doctor. One, I think you've got the mundane explanation that her name was on the list of the Canary Wharf dead. Which is sort of lame, but works. And then there's the way I saw it, which is death in the sense that she's on the other side of an impenetrable veil, just like everyone else we've lost.
I don't think the intended interpretation was that Rose's life is nothing without the Doctor. She's sad–because sweet Lord that would suck– but she's not done. The thing I think of with Rose is the Hero's Journey: you go up and up and up and you reach the gods and destroy the ring and save the Empire…and then you go back home. I always thought that would be really hard, to touch all that magic and then have to go back, to live like a normal person again. The Doctor's magic and he's forever: he gave her a boost into hero-dom but he doesn't know how it feels to go back. He couldn't do it if he tried. She has to be separated from him in order to finish growing up. So yeah: right now, on that beach, she's crushed. But she's got her family, made of the best versions of all of them, and she's working at Torchwood, and I don't doubt for a second that she'll live a completely fantastic life on her own.
"For the first nineteen years of my life, nothing happened. Nothing at all. And then I met a man called the Doctor." – Army of Ghosts, where she defines her life as starting when she met the Doctor.
"Here I am at last. And this is the story of how I died. " – Rose says this at the beginning of the beach scene, during her final scene with the doctor, before the doctor tells her she's declared dead.
So I do believe Rose thinks she's "dead" without the Doctor, given these two quotes from her.
"and she's working at Torchwood, and I don't doubt for a second that she'll live a completely fantastic life on her own."
My point being we never even get to see that – her last image is her crying into her mothers arms on a beach. No flash forward montage or anything about what she's going to do next; you have to imagine the rest of her future yourself. Which is my point – RTD is not portraying Rose as moving forward. It's the show, not tell, thing, and he's showing Rose left on a beach, and gave us just one line of her telling us she's working with Torchwood.
Well, yeah, but it's sort of the Doctor's story from that point on, isn't it? That's the bummer thing about Companions. Her story with him is over. I know there was talk of a spinoff in Pete's World about Rose & Co., but that's not really Doctor Who's responsibility any more than what happens on Torchwood.
Re: her perceptions…I can see that. But she's also a very sad 20 year old who's just lost someone she loves and a crazy awesome life to boot. I'm sure that does feel like death, and I don't doubt that she does mean it like that to an extent I can't really know for sure, but I don't think that was the sole intention of the writing. I guess I'm trying to say there's a difference between Rose's perception of what seems to be a very horrible event and the actual story being told. Obviously mileage varies on this one 🙂
There is another problem, at least for me. In "School Reunion" we have a companion who waited for him to return and when he didn't she didn't keep on living. She says it herself at the end of the episode, that she'll try to live and investigate and fight.
Here we have a companion who, for all we see, sees herself as dead without the Doctor. Yes, there is a line about her work at Torchwood but we just see her desperately guiding her family in a wild goose chase to Norway.
I see a pattern here and I don't like how it looks.
Hmm. I see a pattern, but in a more constructive way, if that makes sense? The whole season, it seemed to me, was a whole bunch of stories about loss and pain and grief, with a side helping of learning to be awesome on your own. So School Reunion's Sarah Jane is an example of how not to do it and her resolution at the end is a move forward in the story towards the right way to handle it. That works for me in the sense that in fiction the whole world warps around the characters: the whole universe contrives to teach the two of them how to handle this. I mean, it's obviously not explicitly stated, but I have to say that it didn't personally strike me as a bad kind of pattern.
You are right on that, it was ultimately benefitial for both of them but I don't think Rose has learnt that, to be awesome on her own.
I think she had (she rocks out in Satan Pit and manages well in *shudder* Fear Her), I think we just don't get to see it post-Doomsday because she's, well, not on the show. Obviously it's a point of contention, but it worked for me.
The Doctor did mention that the offical records in this Universe logs both her and Jackie as officially dead. So many people went missing that it was assumed that vanished people were killed by the Cybermen, or by the Daleks. So as far as anybody in this Universe trying to contact her goes, she is dead.
By the way, the most terrifying image of the whole thing? That kid running upstairs to his bedroom (usually the safest place ever) to get grabbed by a Cyberman at the top of the stairs. That must have been good nightmare fuel for the kids.
Agree with this whole post, you've summed up what I couldn't vocalise about Rose.
I marathoned series one and two of Doctor Who in a few days, falling more and more in love with the show as it went on. This episode made me go: "I guess I'm a Who fan for life now". It's just amazing how the series made me feel so strongly for these characters. An episode featuring an epic battle between steel and bronze gods of destuction for the fate of two universes, and yet the most earth-shattering thing is that painful separation.
The scene on the beach was beautifully written and preformed.
The idea of travel between Universes damaging them appears in the His Dark Materials trilogy by Phillip Pullman, which was definitely an inspiration for Russell T Davies, and might have been one for the writers of Fringe. You should read those books if you haven't, they're excellent. Parallel universes, fantasy, spunky teenage heroine and a war against religion. The next obsession for any Harry Potter fan.
Rose is flawed, as all good characters are. She's also full of life, has got bags of personality and never gives up. Sometimes she made me cringe, but could forgive her easily.
I believe that HDM are on the list for Mark Reads at some point in the future!
Who among us is not flawed?
One of the lessons of Rose and the Doctor (I love both, individually and as a couple) is that we are worthy of love, even with our flaws.
Mark, like you, I've had my life-long struggle with depression and a sense of feeling "other". Different reasons, but still very hard to overcome. I'm in my late 50s now, and it has taken most of that lifetime to overcome these feelings. I have nothing to teach there, but I can still extend a does of hope and good will.
As for Doomsday, yes, it is a very powerful and dark episode. All I can say without spoilage is that this episode will resonate.
The moment where she implies that she is pregnant is my least favourite moment. I love Rose. Adore her. But, I would have slapped her after that… if she was real. Well, no I wouldn't. I would have hugged her and cried and sobbed. But I would have disapproved of her saying "the baby" so ambiguously!
hahaha. I know. It's so bad. But it makes me LOL so much. Like, Idk. I love that there is this awful moment where both Rose and the Doctor are feeling emotional, so Rose uses humor and messing with the Doctor by telling she's pregnant and a shop girl again as an emotional outlet.
Also, I take glee from the fact that I know that half the reason it was in there is because RTD enjoys messing with fandom.
I always took the ambiguous and slightly random reference to "the baby" as her thinking, and me as well, that no one would possibly confuse the fact that she might be pregnant, because she was the Doctor's and there was no one else for her. But it is always kind of hard to think logically through that moment since I am generally sobbing by that point.
Check out this amazing YouTube video about this episode. It's a music video for the song “Regeneration is Useless (With Two Broken Hearts)” by trock band The Medusa Cascade. It's beautiful and heartbreaking!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6h6-vHnyzs
There are some spoilery images in that video — beware.
This episode. omg.
<img src="http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2899/davidtcry.gif">
<img src="http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2841/pikachucrying.gif">
<img src="http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6017/sadteninrain.gif">
<img src="http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9002/stitchcryingintherain.gif">
Oh my god crying.
OMG crying Pikachu from the Pokémon movie
<img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/makx6x.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
I seem to remember bawling in the cinema during that movie and that scene in the gif. SO SAD OMG
My Dad took me, one of my sisters and our neighbours to see it in the cinema and just so sad. I don't think anyone expected that from Pokémon.
I'm pretty sure it's a childhood trauma for a generation of children.
Crap, not that gif. I don't even much like the HP movies, but that gif makes my heart shatter.
OH GOD THESE GIFS
Well I guess I can take comfort in the fact that the Seymour gif from Jurassic Bark isn't included, but the teardrop that falls off Tennant's nose KILLS ME. That episode is almost as bad as this one. And then there's that other one, that if you read any part of my post you would be able to tells makes me sob even more.
WHY IS IT that a goofy sci-fi British tv show makes me cry this hard? CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME?
Because it tricks you into thinking it's just a silly little fun show and then makes you like the characters before luring you into a false sense of security in order to better break your heart.
🙁 The Saddest Little Raindrop (teardrop?)
yeah… When I bothered to spell-check myself, I couldn't edit anymore. OR MAYBE, all of the water is our collective tears falling down onto the scene.
I support this theory.
OMG PIKACHU!
That is all.
Yeah, that's the one that really gets me, too. A cartoon character…and I don't even know the context. Is that wierd?
Where is that first gif from?
I'm about 80% sure it's from Single Father, a mini-series DT did last year
Thank you! I don't have tv so I have not seen that yet, but a friend recorded it… methinks I will need to take several boxes of tissues up when we watch it!
Stich ;___;
I think the Pikachu one might have been a nit much. I will now be sad for the rest of the day.
Ashes to Ashes
OH MY GOD. I SOBBED LIKE A SMALL CHILD DURING THE ASHES TO ASHES FINALE. Also, I blame the fantasticness of the Ashes to Ashes finale for why I felt so let down by Lost's since the Ashes to Ashes finale aired 2 days before Lost's and I couldn't help but compare the two.
SO DID I. AND THEN I WATCHED LIFE ON MARS AND THE ASHES TO ASHES FINALE AND SOBBED ALL OVER AGAIN. I don't blame you, I thought it was actually an amazing finale despite people not liking it.
I sobbed like a baby every time I watched this episode. I liked Rose a huge amount first time I saw it and cried buckets, but even later when she began to grate on me quite often it just took that mutual scene of their faces pressed against the same wall but NOT the same wall to start me crying, and then the tears didn't stop the whole way through the Bad Wolf Bay scene.
As exits go, this one was pretty superb. As series finales go it is right up there. I'm so glad you're watching this Mark, and I'm so glad you're loving it so much.
And I know that this is fairly random, but OH MY GOSH YOU MUST READ 'Paper Towns' by John Green. Because it is ALL ABOUT how we can never fully understand or empathise with another person, that we all have our own ideas of people and the person themself is never that idea – they are a person and even if they're your best friend or your mother or your father or your partner or your child, you will never know exactly who they are. And the same is true for them. And it's basically fabulous, and it came immediately to mind reading your post today.
Can't wait for your opinions on series 3 – it's one of my favourites. 🙂 (Which actually isn't saying much as I think I've used that phrase to describe pretty much all the series at some point or another! But I'm feeling very pro-series three right now so…yay for your starting it soon! :D)
What I also meant to say about Paper Towns and then forgot to put in (damn I really should get a Word Press account, it would make editing my posts fifty thousand times easier), is that it also made me feel a lot better about my own depression and self-esteem issues. Obviously they didn't go away or anything, but every time I read it I feel a little bit better about feeling alone and lost because I feel like it tells me that it's okay to feel that way, that nobody will ever truly understand me but that's just a fact of being human. And that I will never be able to understand other people and that my ideas of them are probably criminally incorrect and it just sort of reminds me to stop assuming the worst of other people in terms of how they think of me. Which is something I have always struggled with.
Anyway. It's an excellent book.
Cathrine Taaaaaate <3333
Okay, my thoughts on the episode/two parter:
(Braces for thumbs-downing) I thought this episode was kind of wank. The plot felt like it served little more purpose than ZOMG DALEKS AND CYBERMAN SO COOL!
And now it's time for a brief history in Daleks in NuWho:
All Daleks die in Time War.
Turns out there's one left.
It dies.
There's actually a whole army left!
They die.
Random Daleks we've never seen before show up with a random Dalek prison we've never seen before and releases many many Daleks.
They become re-imprisoned and random Daleks do random technobable thingy and disappear.
There's just little justification for it other than they're apparently the big bads and just their presence means shit gets real. But all they've done is brought them back just to sent them off again. STAY DEAD, WILL YOU?!
Also, as much as I like Rose (I do actually like her a lot, though I don't exactly adore her), I thought the whole "This is the story how I die… LOLZ JK!" was really annoying. Not that I wanted her to die, but if you say she's going to die, SHE BETTER BLOODY DIE. Don't tamper with my emotions like that, Davies! I do miss her though and I'm glad she didn't actually die, but instead lives happily with Jackie and ALT!Pete and Mickey. But I really love the dynamic between new companions and I think it was time for Rose to go.
I didn't totally hate the episode, though. There were parts that I liked. It was just disappointing, really.
Daleks, the cockroaches of Doctor Who. Did he even looked surprised when he saw them with Rose? He looked worried but not surprised.
Argh, I have a lot of words about how much I don't care for the Daleks.
As for "This is the story of how I died" I only realized yesterday that it was true. I had hated her forever for saying that (how disrespectful to those who had actually died!) but the Doctor mentions that she and Jackie are listed among the casualties of that day. So, you know, she wasn't totally lying.
I think I have some of those words as well. I HAAAAAATE the Daleks, but not in the way I'm supposed to, I just groan when I see them.
The reappearing Dalkes thing has always bothered me, especially since I don't find them scary. Actually, I saw this:
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/2dlsvgl.gif">
and ever since I see a Dalek and all I can think of is "Exterminate Daffodils" and I laugh.
FRANKIE BOYLE <3
Pingback: Tweets that mention Mark Watches ‘Doctor Who’: S02E13 – Doomsday | Mark Watches -- Topsy.com
HAHA YES DALEKS VS CYBERMEN SNARK WAR IS ONE OF THE BEST THINGS EVER AND ONE OF MY FAVORITE THINGS IN THIS WHOLE SERIES. 😀 😀 😀 Maybe it's cheesy and self-indulgent or whatever to put those two in the same episodes, but it is worth it JUST FOR THAT SCENE, IMO. Nice to be able to say so now, I was biting my metaphorical tongue so hard during the Army of Ghosts thread, lol.
I'm not really a Rose fan (Stephen_M's comment summed up well why I liked her in series 1 but not so much in series 2), but the goodbye here was lovely, very touching and heartfelt and perfect. I don't do the shippy thing with her and Ten, but I do see them as being in love here, and I think she's one of the great loves of his life (like I commented back during, GITF I think it was, I don't think someone so long-lived would have just ONE TRUE LOVE FOR ALL OF TIME).
Honestly, I do want to clear the air about that topic a bit. When I say I don't do the shippy thing, this is at least partly because I never do that with ANY pairing, regardless of what work they come from. It's just not my thing. I can enjoy a good love story, sure, but I'm both really picky about which ones I like, and I hate hate hate ship wars. This comes partly of being active for years in fandoms with long, storied, bloody histories of ship to ship combat (Slayers and Phoenix Wright come to mind, for example, and of course Harry Potter) way before I ever got into DW. It's not that I don't buy that Rose and Ten are in love, or that I'm some horrible hard-hearted person living a miserable life who hates love. They just don't do anything for me as a couple, I don't tend to like Ten most of the time, I'm a picky non-shipper all of the time, etc. I hope we can all get along and avoid wank over characters in the future, I was sad to see it happen here. Not that everyone has to love Rose or any other character, but… yeah.
To end on a happier note, OMG I AM SO EXCITED FOR YOU TO WATCH RUNAWAY BRIDE, MARK! 😀 😀 😀 I love that special!
The Snark war was pretty much the only thing I liked about having Daleks and Cybermen on my screen at the same time.
There's something inherently amusing about two malevolent and ruthless killing machines getting all Jerry Springer on each other's asses.
I've never had an OTP, and doubt I ever will, and it seems like a lot of the Rose/Doctor shippers do seem to treat the ship as an OTP, so I just fundamentally do fandom differently from other people, I think.
And I also don't think OTPs really belong in DW – it's just seems contrary to what the show is about and how it's structured, given it's about a centuries old time-traveling alien with multiple companions throughout his life.
So I'm with you about the Doctor loving Rose, but also about him not being in "one true" love with her, or soulmates, or however you want to phrase it.
OTP has a lot of different definitions for different people though, which always causes wank when terms aren't defined. Over the years "OTP" has come to be used by a lot of people just to mean "my favourite ship, the one where I'm not really interested in contemplating either of those characters with someone else." It doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the people inside the fictional universe and how they feel about each other (hence all the OTPs people have of non-canon ships).
I tend to OTP in the sense that when I do ship (which is rarely in the first place) it's very strongly one particular pairing that grabs me. I blame the X-Files for this! *shakes fist* And I sort of analogise it to my marriage: Me/Husband OTP! That doesn't mean neither of us loved anyone before we met (we did, both of us, and deeply in some cases), and it doesn't mean that if something happened to my husband I would never love again (hard to say, but I wouldn't rule it out–though I hope it never happens!). But it does mean that right now, while we're together, we are completely right for one another, are hopelessly in love, have been for over a decade, will be for the forseeable future. So, when I say OTP, that's what I mean, and I don't think I"m alone in that interpretation.
So it sort of sucks to have people say that if you have an OTP you're doing Doctor Who wrong. I don't really like to tell anyone they're doing fandom *wrong*. We all do it differnetly, like you say. I don't ship much at all, so already I do fandom a bit different from people who are really into shipping. But they're not wrong and I'm not wrong. I love this show so much (and I am *such* a Two stan, I am totally squeeing over The Three Doctors rn) so it does kind of sting to be stuck in the class of People Who Don't Really Get It. I do get it. I get it in my own way because we're all looking at it through different eyes and different life experiences.
/cool and inappropriately ~deep~ story bro
Sorry, my definition was more of the "one-true" part of the term, as in that is the "true" ship and no other ship shall break apart my OTP. So no Doctor/anyone-that-isn't-Rose, no Rose/anyone-that-isn't-the-Doctor.
I mostly meant it seems odd to me to ship the Doctor with one person and no one else, considering how many people he's loved in his life.
Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissible.
As a child I felt myself to be alone, and I am still, because I know things and must hint at things which others apparently know nothing of, and for the most part do not want to know.
-Carl Jung
Just a quote that your post reminded me of. It's hard to say stuff like this without sounding melodramatic or hyperbolic, but, yeah. I know I can't help your loneliness, but I understand it.
Also, SADDEST EPISODE EVER. Sometimes I just THINK about this, about them losing each other, and I can start sobbing. I get over-invested, lmfao. Also, whenever I'm in the mood for a good cry, I watch a Ten/Rose fan-video to 'My Heart Will Go On' on Youtube and absolutely flood the place. Slightly pathetic? Yes. BUT IT'S HEARTBREAKING.
Damn, that is a great quote. I think that's what it is. I'm at a point where I have a lot of people in my life (HELLO INTERNET) but it's that social problem of communication that prevents me from feeling close.
And since I have run out of time – Catherine Tate = win. You can NEVER go wrong with Catherine Tate. *nods*
HELL YEAH.
But am I bovvered?
"But am I bovvered?"
I WAS GOING TO SAY THIS, but figured no one would get it.
My husband follows me around the house saying this when I try to talk to him. With the hand and everything!!!!
Look at my face! Is this a bovvered face?
Are you disrespectin' me? Are you disrespectin' my family?
Safacs episode 🙁
But, the 3D glasses are explained! xD
And OMG The Runaway Bride, EPIC <3<3
The thing I love about the glasses is that Torchwood have been spending a fortune eaxmining that sphere with "every scientific instrument imaginable" but it never occurred to anyone to try 3D glasses, because that would be ridiculous, right? 🙂
I hope I'm not one, seeing as I can and will accept that the Doctor will end up loving somebody else one day like he loved Rose, and she never would have been his one and only – but nobody can deny that he was in love with her or at least loved her for that time they knew each other
I agree with this so hard. And IMO that means you're definitely not one of the over the top annoying fans, as they tend to not accept the first part of that sentence.
The problem are the extremes. There are some Rosefen who are obsessed with her and self-identify with her way too much and those are the ones giving the rest a bad name. Those insult other companions, insult fans who don't believe in OTPs for someone who lives for 900 years and some other nastiness there.
I don't think I've seen anyone hateRose, to tell the truth. What I've seen was more like dislike and utter distrust of anyone who claimed to like her because they'd been burned before.
Great, now I´m crying again…
Oh my gosh. I have LOVED reading your reviews of s2 episodes and am so glad to see wonderful Rose fans on here! Did I see before that you're a d/r fix-er on LiveJournal? If so, I am totally going to say hi to you there! You are awesome and I love your insightful and spot-on comments. There's so much love in the D/R side of Who fandom. 🙂
I don't run D/R Fix, but I do comment occassionally and I'm friends with the people who DO run the comm. heh. My username over on lj is fauxkaren, so feel free to friend me or reply to comments I make over there! And I agree. There IS so much love in the D/R corner of fandom. I've met a ton of lovely, wonderful, funny, clever and insightful people there.
d_r_fix represent!
<img src=http://i.imgur.com/mZHgi.gif>
I'm a mod, lol.
That is too cute.
Caitlin Blackwood is the most adorable child of all time.
I can't upvote this enough. So agreed.
UGH THOSE FINAL TWO IMAGES ARE DESTROYING ME.
I always sort of loved Rose. By the end of her run, I was ready for Rose to go, but I never stopped really liking her. I think part of the reason I DID like her was that she wasn't incredibly likable. She has her good traits, but she is also selfish, and self-centered in that she has difficulty seeing a bigger picture. And by the end of her run, they didn't try to take that away or perfect her. She was what she was, and even as you saw her grow and change, it was still within the realm of that character we originally met, which is I think a lot more powerful than a sudden character 180.
Rose isn't my favorite companion, but I love ALL the companions, without fail, so she's still made of win for me. 🙂
Everything I could say has already been said, so I'll keep this short…
I love RTD for this episode, it will never not make me cry all the tears.
I love Rose for being braver than I could ever imagine myself being.
I love my fellow commenters for saying the things Im thinking, but much more eloquently than I could.
I love you Mark for so many reasons <3
I love Doctor Who and cannot wait for you to see Runaway Bride and then start series 3, bring it on <3
For completion's sake, then the final Tardisode is in the form of an emergency news broadcast:
A female news reporter informs the viewer that the country is in a State of Emergency. The Tardisode then cuts to amateur-style footage of the Cyberman invasion, with cars exploding, people running and screaming and other scenes of destruction and terror.
We return to the newsroom, and the reporter behind the desk informs us that they have lost communication, and if anyone is still watching to run as fast as they can. The graphic behind her changes to the footage from earlier, but the transmission is met with interference, and the studio begins exploding around her.
The reporter also tells her own parents to flee from the Cybermen. Finally, she cowers under her desk as we hear the unmistakable sound of Daleks enter the room, proclaiming "We are the Masters of Earth." "Daleks conquer and destroy!" finally ending the Tardisode with a Dalek yelling "Exterminate!".
This is rather odd as Tardisodes go, in that there is no way these event can possibly take place before the episode proper, since the Daleks have only just appeared at that stage. Instead, this is more like an extended version of the kind of news broadcasts that Russell like to write into his episodes.
The whole Tardisode concept was promptly dropped after this – I thing most would say with good reason. So I'll have to find something else to post from now on! 🙂
Anyway, for any who missed it previously, here's a link to all the Tardisodes on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH-ntD-NmfA
Thanks for posting all the Tardisodes for us to see.
And thus, Mark explains why I love Rose Tyler so much.
To me, she represents a desire for something better in your life and I can soooo relate to that. Plus, she was the first companion I knew and it's just hard to let her go as though she doesn't matter.
I cried for days after this episode. I just couldn't move on to the next one. I had "The Runaway Bride" queued up and everything, but I was in denial for the longest time and I didn't want to go on. But I was listening to a podcast that was discussing regeneration and someone mentioned that one of the themes of Doctor Who is change and moving forward.
And YAY Catherine Tate! (I swear, this show gives me so many mood-whiplashes – first I'm bawling my eyes out, then I'm on my butt laughing).
Oh – and some funny Dalek/Cyberman snark that will have you on the floor in tears (but these are funny tears) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ-lJpL2oVg
Brilliant! Molto Bene! 🙂
I was totally and utterly heartbroken after this episode, it still makes me cry now. It was the first time that RTD broke my heart, but it certainly wasn't the last. Though he breaks my heart, makes me hurt and cry everytime, i admire him for having the guts to do these things to his characters. He never lets you get comfortable, never lets you forget that, though the characters are having the time of their lifes and experiencing things i will never have any knowledge of, there is always a danger that the characters will die, or get seperated or hurt. He makes it so real that you forget these people are made up, and when you get torn away from them it's like you're losing a good friend.
You never forget your first Doctor, and you can never forget your first companion either.
This is something that RTD said in an episode of Torchwood Declassified, but i think it very much applies to his Doctor Who work. (I've had to edit it slightly because it contains a few Torchwood spoilers):
(It won't let me edit anymore GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR)
Continued:
"You cannot have a threat to the Earth, that is this big, without there being consequences. Drama's just not there to make you smile and go 'isn't everyone happy, and all the people i like have survived", that's just rubbish! The good drama actually does rip your guts out. It does make you bleed and makes you remember forever."
I love Rose i really do, she's my second favourite companion. There are things about her that i don't like, she can be very selfish, impatient and childish when it comes to the things she wants. But that just makes me love her more, she has faults and weaknesses, just like any other Human Being.
The Doctor's face when he walks away breaks my heart everytime. When i see David crying i just want to give him a cuggle.
Billie is amazing in this episode. Well, she's amazing full stop! She's really proved that she's not a 90's pop star anymore, she's an actress, and a bloody brilliant one!
I love the moment when Yvonne blocks the stairway and that little tear rolls down her mettle face. Such a beautiful touch (even though it doesn't make much sense, do Cybermen have tear ducts?)
Jackie and Pete make me cry everytime, i love them together.
Murray Gold's music is so beautiful, i love the Doomsday theme. If you have the chance i'd suggest watching the Doctor Who proms, they have an orchestra playing live, montages on massive screens, monsters roming around the audience frieghtening the childern. They're on YouTube, but don't watch them yet because the first Prom was in 2008, i think. But there was a special concert they put together after the airing of this episode so i think you'd be safe with that.
I have exactly the same problem as you Mark. I have an illness that people don't understand, i have to constantly explain myself, explain why i can't do things that other people can do, cope with the feeling of guilt that i'm letting people down and being selfish by thinking of my health before everything else. I'm terrified of letting someone in just incase i end up getting hurt and making my health worse. So i push people away, before they have a chance to walk away from me. I hurt them before they hurt me. It's something i have to deal with everyday and it never gets easier.
Everyone's fucked up in someone way, the people who say they aren't are the biggest fuck ups of all!
I've been following your post's since i read about you on Mugglenet. I think you're a beautiful person for letting people in, sharing your thoughts and experiences. It's refreshing to see someone speak openly and honestly. I just want to say thank you too you for letting us in to your life.
Sorry about the fragmented comment. It kept saying 'Error missing attributes' when i tried to edit my first comment, so i just gave up trying to edit it.
And sorry about the spelling mistakes, after all tha faff it took to post all of my comment i just can't be arsed to correct the mistakes. BARROWMAN!! *shakes fist*
I unfortunately really relate to pushing people away, the more I care about them the harder I push. This last year I finally have people who push back and refuse to let go.
Yip, I haven't commented because I loathe selfish whiny Rose with the power of quite a few fiery suns – but she didn't stand a chance, because I loathed Billie Piper for years before Who even came back – but even I sobbed through the end of this one.
David Tennant is extraordinary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-DhjidQxk
I just wanted to comment on the music at the end of the episode. Murray Gold's Doomsday piece is one of my absolute favorite Doctor Who themes. It's so beautiful, but there's something eerie and chilling about it.
Also.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/MmkZU.gif" alt="" title="Hosted by imgur.com" />
Murray Gold is an evil genius with his music. He's so brilliant at evoking just the right mood and emotion.
I'm one of those weird people who likes all the Doctors and all the Companions. Some more than others, sure, but I don't hate any of them and I was sad to see all of them go even if I liked/loved their replacement.
Rose is not my favorite companion, but I cry at this episode every time. Billie is so good at crying ugly. I mean that in a good way.
I don't hate any either. Rose is one of my favorites, but I do love them all. YES EVEN ADRIC. :p
We can be weridos together. I may like some people more than others but I do generally like everyone and would never say I hate anyone.
Hey, you're not alone on the liking of the Doctors and companions. I've liked and enjoyed all that I've seen. Yes, I have ones I like slightly more than others, but I do honestly like them all.
Also? I think I'm a canon shipper. Like, if it gets shipped in the source material, I'm totally on board. I think it comes down to the fact that I really like the characters and want them to be happy, so if the show is telling me these people are in love and should be a couple, I'm rooting for them to work out.
Yes, I realize that I said I want the characters to be happy. Note to self: they're not real. (But they should still be happy!)
All of them (so far) are great.
I love Rose. I'm on series 3 and I still miss her. It might be sad, but its true. I knew that Rose was leaving and I even knew what happens. I was anxious about this episode because I know how much I like Rose and Ten and them together.
I don't cry at TV/movies too often, or cry in general. Its more internal. as I watched the final scenes of Doomsday I just felt this sadness inside me. I stared at the screen and just… ached. I've grown too attached to many TV characters over time, and I know it. I care about Rose and the Doctor like I would real people…. for better or for worse I suppose. And Rose's leaving really affected me.
I'm so proud of Billie and David for being able to play this so perfectly.
I cried so much when I saw this episode. I had watched the first season and about 2/3rds of this one in about 3 days. Knowing this was coming made me slow down because I was dreading this happening…though of course that stopped and now I am happily going through season 3 🙂
“You are superior in only one respect.” “What is that?” “You are better at dying.” ;DSAJ;ASDFJ;ADSFDSLFK COULD DALEKS ALWAYS BE SO WITTY.
FAVORITE EXCHANGE EVER.
Now that I got that out of the way (seriously, I was waiting for your response to that)…
I’d like to think that Mark Reads Harry Potter helped to free a lot of what has happened to me from the pain it’s been causing me for years.
I just think this is an amazing sentence. I am continually annoyed by people's disdain of online communities and their disbelief that they can be just as real and enriching, if not moreso, than in-person social interaction.
Over the years, this has manifested in rather obvious ways, such as my constant desire to do nice things for people, even if it is at direct expense to my own well-being, or to seek out affection from people (again) even if it is at direct expense to my own well-being.
I have this affliction myself. I'll bet you hold doors open ALL THE TIME. Like it's just a reflex.
I imagine it's hard to share these things with the vast Internet void, but I also know from personal experience that sharing these things with the vast Internet void—or at least your personal corner—can help.
But what I really want to say is: shut up, sci-fi haters. Sometimes it takes stories about time-traveling aliens and parallel universes to really touch the human soul.
It is second nature, though I understand when people are annoyed by it. If someone requests me to stop doing, by golly I'll do it.
I'd say my niceness is certainly a reflex. A lot of times I don't even think about the logistics of what that means.
I've mentioned several times how much I love Rose because of her flaws, and how much I love her and the Doctor together (YES IN THAT WAY DAMMIT), so enough of that. Let me just say I've put off commenting on this post because when I watch "Doomsday" it still make me cry EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME. This despite being fully aware of the techniques RTD uses to emotionally manipulate the viewer. I can sit there and say, yup, tugging the heartstrings like a marionette, but still — WEEPING LIKE NIAGARA EVERY TIME.
In fact, I try to avoid watching it. When I've done my marathons, I tend to skip "Army of Ghosts" and "Doomsday" and go right on to "Runaway Bride", about which I shall have comments aplenty.
Hey Fusion here. I wish I could make jokes or say a selfish apology but a combination of what you said and this episode… Excuse me I need to cry.
I’m back… Let’s do trivia on this episode and Billie Piper herself.
A. This episode was orignally named Torchwood falls. Not feeling better.
B. Doomsday and the 2006 World Cup finale aired in the same week. Radio Times did variant covers of a team of a Cybermen and a team of Daleks on a football pitch, the lead holding a football. Srsly.
C.According to commentaries and discussion on the Series 2 DVD release, secrecy was very tight surrounding the filming of the two final scenes of the episode. According to Tennant and Davies, only Tennant and Piper were given the script for their farewell scene in advance, with the director receiving his copy soon before filming. According to Tennant, the filming of the Catherine Tate cameo was a rare example of a surprise being kept without getting spoiled; the scene was shot with minimal crew while the rest of the production team were having their wrap party. As such, the Tate scenes were actually shot long after the Doctor and Rose’s farewell scene, which was filmed during and earlier production block. This will be repeated frequently in this show.
D.When Rose and the Doctor put their heads against the wall, as if listening for each other, it is very similar to the way the wolf and the Doctor listened to each other through the door in Tooth and Claw. Props RTD.
E. This is the first episode Daleks and Cybermen interact.
Now for Ms. Piper.
A. She used to be a British pop star. Her most famous song was called Because We Want To. If someone could link to the video I would appreciate it.
B. She was also the “Yoko Ono” when she dated Ritchie Neville from the band Five.
C. When she got famous many people and celebrities were eargly counting down to her 16th birthday which is when she’ll be legal. So she was like Emma Watson?
D. Some critics say she is a better actress then singer.
E. In November 2005, she starred as Hero in a BBC adaptation of Much Ado About Nothing, updated for the modern day in a similar manner to the Canterbury Tales series in which she featured, with Hero now being a weather presenter in a television station. David Tennant is now going to be in a presentation of Much Ado with Catherine Tate this summer bringing another connection between the two.
Sorry for the length. If I made a mistake or there’s something I missed tell me. Now excuse me while I cry some more.
Because We Want To video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_XI_290cfw Hello childhood. Wonderful graphics too.
My favourite was Day and Night though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9LjOQVBFmA
Wait… Did she just get beamed down by a spaceship? Wow…
My personal favorite is "She Wants You" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8freofp6qQ&ob=av2nm) followed by "Girlfriend" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=344oT_A9XVI). haha. Billie's pop career is the best thing ever.
Oh 90s pop music, I can never not love you. Nostalgia is making me very tempted to download some songs.
Hah, I had totally forgotten about "Girlfriend" but I could still sing a long right away. Sometimes I wonder how much space in my brain is taken up by random 90's pop songs 😛
I was always a particular fan of 'Honey to the Bee' myself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtT4MWzohRY&ob… Oh the cringeworthy 90s graphics… <3333
I seem to remember not liking her when she was a singer, but even then I really liked Day and Night.
what the fuck THAT IS WHAT BILLIE PIPER DID BEFORE DOCTOR WHO
what the fuck
THIS IS WHAT BILLIE PIPER DID BEFORE WHO! Also yes she was really the Yoko Ono of that British band Five.
Now back to Billie Piper fans discussing awesome pop songs.
Yes, and I remember when her casting was announced, many of us were seriously not impressed with the idea. It was like they'd got one of the best actors in Britain with Christopher Eccleston and then blown the casting budget and got some ex popstar for companion.
The world's largest humble pie was baked in time for the transmission of Rose, and I confess to enjoying a slice or two myself.
I heard it was a huge pie. But didn't *SPOILERS* make us have to eat an even bigger pie?
If you mean who I think you mean, in my case I had no idea who they were, so I had no preconceptions either way. No pie for me on that occasion.
I'm not going to lie, my sister and I spent a week or two in '98 loudly singing "Because We Want To" in my dad's face whenever he questioned us about anything. She's a much better actress than singer, but that song always has a place in my heart 😀
"When Rose and the Doctor put their heads against the wall, as if listening for each other, it is very similar to the way the wolf and the Doctor listened to each other through the door in Tooth and Claw. Props RTD."
<img src="http://www.kyrina.org/images/ToothandClaw/animations/TC_HeadtoWall-small.gif">
<img src=http://www.gifsoup.com/view3/1653565/doctor-who-doomsday-o.gif>
I am not a critic and I will happily say that Billie is a better actress than singer! Having read her autobiography (good read, btw, definitely interesting to read about her struggles with fame, eating disorders etc at a young age) I think she'd probably agree!
That said, 'Because We Want To' still features on my mp3 player for delicious nostalgia reasons.
This post means more to me than I can say.
I feel alone. All the time, I feel unconnected. And mostly I'm so jealous of everyone else because they do connect, and they're not alone.
In some ways, what you wrote here Mark validates what I feel. It makes me feel less wrong. And that helps.
Billie Piper's heartwrench sobs + David Tennant's Sad Eyes = ENDLESS TEARS FOREVER
<img src=http://pics.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/pic/00009b8h>
Oh, and btw, SO EXCITE FOR YOU TO GET TO SEASON 3 AND A NEW COMPANION AND AND AND…
<img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/6yfu3a.jpg"/>
Being Human was brilliant last night! So glad it's back!
THE REAL BEING HUMAN \o/
The last 10 minutes of last night's episode of Being Human filled me with so much happy. 😀
I DIDN'T KNOW BEING HUMAN WAS GOING TO BE BACK AND THEN THE LINK APPEARED AND I FLIPPED OUT. AND GEORGE ALMOST ATE RHYS.
<333333 OH GOD IT'S SO GLORIOUS I SPENT SUCH A HAPPY HOUR THERE AREN'T WORDS <3333
It was SO so good last night, I loved it crazy amounts. It was like the perfect blend of the series one humour and the series two darkness. The only thing that was a shame was I was REALLY hoping to have Mitchell open the door on when he killed Lauren. I loved Lauren!
omg I started Being Human yesterday and I'm almost done series 1 now. I really like it!
WE WOULD DESTROY THE CYBERMEN WITH *ONE* DALEK.
yeah, Daleks represent dude. 😀
Just my thought having read your first bit about Rose… me, I find that Rose has a lot of flaws… & I'm never sure how much I like her… but as a character… I really *enjoy* her. & her flaws add to that, they don't detract from it. Whether I'd like her as a friend? Not sure. But to watch… she's got a lot to offer.
"I believe that, even at a young age, I was always a person who was filled with an overflowing amount of love and I believed that I could give it to anyone, that I could care for people and make them happy. Over the years, this has manifested in rather obvious ways, such as my constant desire to do nice things for people, even if it is at direct expense to my own well-being, or to seek out affection from people (again) even if it is at direct expense to my own well-being. I crave affection and praise all the time and criticism and negativity can actually trigger depression. Yes, it is literally that extreme sometimes and there’s nothing I wish more some days that my brain would just work and not associate these things with each other.
But I know it’s not my fault and that’s the real important thing about this. I know that my affinity for affection was only amplified by the abuse and bullying I experienced growing up, that my need for affection was only increased as I was exponentially denied it for so long. Perhaps that’s even the reason why I feel this way. I think I’m ok saying that."
Mark are you me? Honestly, I am the same way. I do feel connections with certain people, so there's our difference, but other than that, I get you.
I don't like Rose as a person, but as a character I love her because she makes me think.
WE TRULY ~UNDERSTAND~ EACH OTHER
I know exactly what you mean when you say you're alone, and I've never seen it so articulately described before (or at all). So, thanks for that.
regarding aloneness… I identify a bit too strongly with having suffered loneliness, depression & abuse… & though I in fact came to the opposite conclusion about God, I know how it feels to feel alone in a crowd. I'm 32 and literally in the last 8 months for the first time in my life I've had people in my life who know me and who I know well enough to finally not feel, humanly speaking, so very alone any more. Alone you may be but for what it's worth, you're not alone in feeling that way… & I'm sure others can relate. I am not sure whether or not it's a good thing to know that??! But for what it's worth, anyway. & like I say, I had to wait 31 years and 8 1/2 months… but I don't feel (so) alone any more.
That is really awesome. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you, too, Mark. Your blog is a really 'safe' place to talk about this kind of stuff… it's so appreciated.
After the disaster of "Love and Monsters" the second episode I ever saw, about two and half years later, was "Doomsday." I sort of kind of realized in the back of my mind that "This is obviously a season finale, I shouldn't be watching this." But I literally couldn't turn it off.
There were two kinds of robots bitching at each other (I realize Daleks aren't robots now, but I had no way of knowing then). There were explosions and laser battles and lots of running down corridors. One of the things I remember most is Jackie actually, although I couldn't quite make the connection between her Pete. (They were married but they're from different dimensions wut.) There was some crazy British bloke that ran around with 3D glasses, which I actually thought were part of his regular outfit. And the ending scene was very melodramatic and sad, and I probably would have cried buckets of tears if I had any emotional connection to the characters.
An unconventional but effective kick-in-the-pants to "GO WATCH THE SERIES! You obviously misjudged it terribly!" And thank Buddha I did.
P.S. Sad we couldn't suggest/vote on the Classic series serial, but that's okay because you managed to pick a great one! It will give you a healthy dose of Doctors Two and Three, with cameos by One. It's probably my favorite multi-Doctor serial.
Someone's already mentioned it, but if you're planning on watching Torchwood as well then you should start series one on Thursday, after The Three Doctors. The Christmas special was broadcast towards the end of series one of Torchwood, but it probably fits better before it (it certainly doesn't matter greatly either way).
The easiest way to watch is all of series one of Torchwood followed by all of series three of Doctor Who. However, it is possible to mix the two series together a bit, since they're sort of happening at the same time. If you want a suggested viewing order, then let me know.
On the other hand, you could just skip Torchwood all together and go straight to series three of Doctor Who without it causing any problems (there's a some overlap between the shows, but nothing that isn't explained). Torchwood is more of a love/hate show and they were finding their feet with series one, so you'll get wildly different recommendations from people about whether to watch it or not. I'd go for the full experience personally – but it'll take longer to get through everything that way.
Regardless of what you decide, the time to decide is pretty much now.
——————-
As I did with City of Death, here's some quick background to The Three Doctors (things the audience will have known going into it).
It's the opening serial of season nine, from 1973 – and so it's the 10th anniversary serial.
For the last two seasons, the Doctor has been exiled to Earth by the Time Lords (for interfering) and unable to leave, except to go on missions for them.
This had led to him teaming up with UNIT, who you've met in its newer incarnation, officially as their scientific adviser.
In this period, the Doctor has an assistant in his official role (which is where the idea of companions sometimes being called assistants comes from). His assistant in this is Jo Grant, who got to be a UNIT agent through family connections.
UNIT is run by Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart who is a recurring character along with Captain Mike Yates and Sergeant Benton. The Brigadier and Benton first met the Doctor in his second incarnation, the Brigadier when he was a captain in The Web of Fear and Benton when he was a private in The Invasion, which was the story that introduced UNIT.
All of that you'd probably work out as you went along, but I thought some background wouldn't hurt.
Omg. The Brig is in The Three Doctors! I'd forgotten about that. BRIIIIIIIIIG. ILH. I haven't seen this serial in aaaages. I was debating whether or not to rewatch it, but the Brig's presence sealed the deal.
I'm definitely going to rewatch it. He gets some great lines.
Correction, I got my seasons wrong (not able to edit since I've had a reply). It should read:
"It's the opening serial of season ten, from 1973 – and so it's the 10th anniversary serial.
For the last three seasons, the Doctor has been exiled to Earth by the Time Lords (for interfering) and unable to leave, except to go on missions for them. "
Thank you for the background info!
I think, for now, I'll probably skip Torchwood. I just don't have the time to devote to it.
As we already said in another thread, it might be a good idea to watch the first episode though just to get a sense of the show before the little crossovers. Do you even know who Torchwood's leading man is? 😉
Just in case you don't even want to know, I've hidden the answer behind a link, but I think you should know. http://bbc.in/dIGoTM
Honestly, the Torchwood overlap is covered in Doctor Who. I don't think you lose too much by not having seen it, since Doctor Who has to work for all the kids who can't watch Torchwood – so they're pretty careful about it.
But the first episode does cover all the set up, so that'd be an option (no need to review it, though).
In terms of going back and watching Torchwood later, the only really big spoiler is if you don't get to the end of Torchwood series two before the finale of Doctor Who series four. But even then there's plenty to enjoy seeing how things play out.
The overlap between threads has damaged my line of thought a little. In fact, I did argue that Torchwood is not needed for comprehension myself and later admitted that it might still be nice to watch the pilot. There's really no need to do it, though.
"5 million Cybermen, easy. One Doctor, now you're scared."
One thing that annoys me about this episode is the visual effects at the end. If you pay attention you'll notice that there's no cybermen actually getting sucked into the void. They just get pulled off the ground but there's not a single cybermen that gets sucked through the window into the void it's all daleks.
That's because the Cybermen didn't go back through the void portal, they disappeared into the cracks through which they came….
I agree! Season 5/6 Team Tardis FTW! I really do like all of them, maybe not the same amount, but they are all the Doctor having adventures with interesting people. I've been delving more into Doctor Who fandom in the past month or two and I just can't get the hate some people have for different companions/doctors/writers etc.
Whenever fictional characters can provoke any such strong, enduring emotions, I think that's a win for the dramatic muse. (That is, at least, what I tell myself, since I seem to have an incredible gift for falling in love with the characters everyone else hates with an equal passion.) The sorts of insight and catharsis that Mark writes so movingly about is what it's all about, and the passions that get provoked are the proof that it works.
Also, FUN FACT I noticed mostly during the Christmas Invasion rewatch. Compare the end of TCI to the end of Doomsday:
TCI:
Rose: And what about you? What are you gonna do next?
Doctor: Well… back to the TARDIS, same old life.
Rose: On your own?
Doctor: Why, don't you wanna come?
Doomsday:
Rose Tyler: What are you going to do?
The Doctor: I've got the TARDIS. Same old life. The last of the Time Lords.
Rose Tyler: On your own?
[the Doctor nods]
SAME PHRASING OH GOD
<img src=http://i.imgur.com/s30qR.gif>
<img src="http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_left6jQebn1qf8yek.gif"/>
<img src="http://i47.tinypic.com/20ixhko.gif">
BEST GIFS.
I never even noticed this. APPARENTLY I HAVE MORE TEARS TO SHED FOR THIS EPISODE.
BONUS FACT: Rose screaming "take me back!" while she beats the wall in this episode also directly parallels her screaming "take me back!" in the TARDIS in Parting of the Ways.
I cannot deal with David Tennant crying. He makes me weep (this isn't even the most sad I have seen him act, man!). And the end of this episode… man alive.
Just further thoughts on feeling alone… till every very recently, I felt like everyone else had a ticket to the party called life and I was a gatecrasher. Even my very best friends felt always like they were slightly at a distance, and I never told my darkest secrets to anyone.
And like I said, I now finally have a couple of people in my life who seem to SEE me, and who I actually connect with, and it's amazing… and it also triggered my worst bout of depression ever, because of the terror at losing this new thing. It scares the crap out of me. But yeah like I said, I'm really really not sure if this is helpful or not, but you're not alone in feeling that way. *hugs on the astral plane*
i cried so hard during this episode. Seeing Rose bang against that wall has made me cry harder than i ever have for any movie, tv show, cartoon, anything. The only thing i could compare it to is Book Seven of Harry Potter, 'cept that was when i actually tried to keep myself from crying. This episode of Doctor Who pretty much paved the way for me realizing that crying =/= bad. i still don't want to cry in front of people, but that's because i don't want to worry them, really, because i know i'll get over it, just not right now. I was actually sad for a coupla days after watching this episode, which probably tells you how much i am emotionally invested in this show =p. i'm really glad i watched it though.
i call for a group hug! <img src="http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll127/tardis_stowaway/gifs/grouphugchristmasinvasion.gif" border="0">
edit: AND THE FIRST DOOMSDAY GIF I SEE SETS ME OFF. I KNEW IT WAS GONNA HAPPEN.
Moving and personal review, truly. It was a brilliant episode, and deeply moving at the time.
At the time the episode was shown the same day as a World Cup match that put England out of the contest… iirc due to a failed pentalty save. Cue many comments about Pete making the best save of the day…
Just FYI, chronologically in the UK the first series of "Torchwood" broadcast next, featuring some Doctor Who characters. You'll like find references, and spoilers, for the other show in the future.
Also, I gotta say – Mark, I understand you, and I identify with a lot of the things you said here. And, Riverside?! OMG that's not far from where I live! Spooky.
I love s5 Team TARDIS but also have a real soft spot for end of s3 TT. I'm trying to figure out who you're implying for s6 TT but I don't know how without risk of spoilers. I hope you're implying who I think you are though. Gah, other people are so much better at subtly getting across characters then I am.
I'd love to give you a hint, but spoilers.
*wink*
ETA: Oh, and I love season 3 TT as well. Well, and season 4 for that matter. Oh fuck, it just love everyone.
Haha, why didn't I think of that.
Yes! You're implying who I hoped for! o/ I was afraid I would be all unpopular opinion when we got to that because I love that character but yay there's someone else.
There's me too, I love said character. 😀
I love that character too! I'll be here. 😀
No, you're not alone.
Oooh, I am severely, extremely suspicious of said character. I don't dislike the character, but I am kind of afraid.
I can "hear" in my head Ten's voice as he says, "Rose tyler, defender of the earth", and the mix of pain and pride is just so damn perfect. That man can't half act!
That reminds me. Russell had a spinoff planned, called Rose Tyler: Defender of the Earth. But then he decided that it would spoil the drama of Doomsday and so pulled the plug to protect the integrity of the stortelling.
I *think* he created The Sarah Jane Adventures as an alternative. He mentions it in The Writer's Tale, but I don't have time to check my facts, atm.
"I have now decided I cannot deal with David Tennant crying."
Mark, you have no idea. He was in a show called The Single Father, where his wife dies and he becomes a single father. Which you could probably guess by the name. I literally cried for the entire hour-long first episode, and continued crying for about an hour and a half when it was over. I can't imagine being his parent. He would be so spoiled. Anytime he wanted anything, he'd just have to make a sad face and I'd give him whatever he asked for.
Have you seen Recovery? There are not enough tears in the world…
Hugs for that review, Mark.
<img src="http://oi56.tinypic.com/2r3v0ax.jpg">
I enjoyed your insight into Rose. It rings true and that sense of connection she found with the Doctor was such a joyful thing for her. I think she had a childhood feeling worthless and then got swept up in this experience that made her feel like she had value and hope and something to offer. DAMN YOU, RTD.
As someone else has pointed out, now is the time to take a look at Torchwood, if you're interested. And, actually, I think you might enjoy it? Some really wonderful characters and themes.
Arthur gif Arthur gif ARTHUR GIF! Loved that episode :D:D:D I wish I had Merlin GIFS…
Have some of mine!
<img src="http://oi51.tinypic.com/30tqxcj.jpg">
<img src="http://oi55.tinypic.com/1zoycnc.jpg">
<img src="http://oi52.tinypic.com/1jw0ae.jpg">
<img src="http://oi51.tinypic.com/mbn9tf.jpg">
This episode has got to be the saddest thing ever depicted on a television screen. This, keeping in mind I was a Buffy fan and once thought this of the Buffy season 2 finale.
You know what? I love Rose. I always have. If she's flawed, well, she's young and she's human. If she was perfect all the time, I certainly wouldn't like her nearly as much. She's living life on her own terms, and there's something admirable about that, since it's something I often have a hard time doing. I have a tendency to negate myself and let other people have their way because of the way I was raised, and it's hard for me to think of my needs being as "real" as other people's. So yeah, Rose losing her Doctor totally breaks my heart. I like to imagine there's a Doctor in that universe, too, but how weird and heartbreaking would it be for Rose to meet him, feeling as she does, when he would have no idea who she was?
Oh, and speaking of heartbreaking and parallel worlds, this reminds me of the end of Phillip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" trilogy, and the way the damage to those universes is resolved.
And to finish on a humourous note: I love the Daleks and Cybermen snarking at one another. Battle of the sarcastic robots? Yes please!
*toddles off to re-watch the Christmas special*
I've seen is soooooo many times- many more than four – and I'm still tearing up over here just thinking about it even though I loaned my DVDs out and haven't seen this ep in at least a year. So… yeah, 4 times and still blubbing sounds reasonable to me!
I'm 100% sure I will be the same, if I watch it more.
The thing is, even though it is one of my favourite double episodes (I say this a lot … ), it is so very, very sad that I haven't watched it as many times as others. I … avoid it.
totally understandable IMO
SO. MUCH. JOY.
I think for me, it may even beat out a certain similar Doctor Who hug between MumbleMumble and *Cough* in season *clears throat*.
Ooh! Being Human! Another proposal for future Mark Watches, perhaps? (I believe they're doing a US version. I'm cringeing already.)
Don't cry Doctor – just go back to your real true love!
<img src="http://www.gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=116349" border="0"/>GIFSoup
The worst thing about that gif is that I could have seen that IRL and I missed it because of my ride back up to northern California.
UGH MY HEART IS FULL OF DISAPPOINTMENT.
That gif makes me happy every time someone posts it. HILARIOUS.
Gods I love them both so much.
It's SO iconic. Also props to Murray Gold because the Doomsday theme is like, the best thing ever. It has about a million plays in iTunes for me. Also, I love you. And Rose. Rose is SO wonderful. Other companions (I imagine we also share a next-favorite) have their charms but Rose Rose Rose. I think the whole point of her is almost that you don't expect someone like her to be so special, but she is. And she shines so brightly before she goes.