In the sixth episode of the second series of Doctor Who, our heroes battle the seemingly invincible Cybermen with tragic results. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to watch Doctor Who.
Ok, I am certainly at a point now where I can just let go of trying to enjoy these episodes AND appreciating air-tight plots at the same time. In a way, it’s become part of Doctor Who’s charm that there was so much in this episode that made little to no sense. It’s almost a game. How many things will the writers cram into one episode to hastily solve the plot?
We’ll get to that in a bit. There’s a great deal of both well-placed humor and bone-crushingly depressing character turns in “The Age of Steel,” so I think it’s important to point out that Tom MacRae does a lot of great things with the characters and the story in this episode. He actually makes a small handful of incredibly difficult decisions as a writer, as this particular episode has possibly one of the highest body counts we’ve seen yet.
Right at the beginning, those who have survived the initial conversion attack are forced to leave alternate-Jackie inside the house, either dead or alone with the Cybermen. As selfishly as Rose has been acting in this episode, I can’t criticize her for wanting to save Jackie. Even if it’s not her mom, how could you blame her for still wanting to protect her? However, I applaud MacRae for having Jackie be left behind, not only because it provides another motivation for Rose and alternate-Pete to enter the Battersea Power Station, but it’s an emotional connection that may have otherwise been kind of silly. Regardless of how Pete felt about his wife in the last episode, it’s still his wife, and the determination that marks his face as he and Rose step in line to enter the conversion station is palpable.
On the other hand, Mickey’s character receives perhaps the best story arc out of anyone on Doctor Who yet. The writers had been building to this episode since the beginning of the first series and here they achieve their stunning climax. At one point, Ricky and Mickey are separated from the group when a battalion of Cybermen attack them. My hand raised into the air for an obligatory high five to Tom MacRae as we watch Mickey witness himself getting murdered by the Cybermen. If there was one thing I figured the writers wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole, it’s that. Granted, it wasn’t himself, but that almost makes it all the more horrifying.
Does it get worse? Oh lord, yes it does. When they reconvene just after this to determine how they’ll give inside Battersea to disable the signal control all of London AND stop Lumic from turning everyone into Cybermen, Mickey’s face is painted with the most unbelievable guilt. Jake certainly gives him a great deal of guff and blame for being with Ricky when he died, but there was something at work inside Mickey at that point that had little to do with what was actually happening around him. Since the Doctor came into his life, he’s left feeling inferior, unwanted, unused, and listless. He knows firsthand that a life traveling with the Doctor changes a person in so many ways that it’s impossible for them to return to who they once were. But as the group devises their plan to infiltrate Lumic’s station, you can see the exact moment when Mickey makes a decision to do something drastic. Again, the Doctor sort of forgets to include him in the plan and Mickey decides it’s time for him to stop being the forgotten one. It’s time for him to actively seek out his part in things. When this happened, I feared the worst: Mickey would make himself important by sacrificing his life at some point to save them all.
Boy, was I wrong.
MacRae also gets more high fives (I am handing them out liberally today) for the scene between Mrs. Moore and the Doctor in the cooling tunnel. I did not find the Cybermen creepy or disturbing at all….that is, until a whole army of them stood quietly in a silent, freezing tunnel underneath the Thames River. One of the more fantastically disturbing visuals of the entire series.
I also didn’t expect that the Cybermen would convert Lumic at all, and his conversion added to the episode in the sense that having a literal “boss” to fight at the end sort of made “The Age of Steel” feel like a real-life video game. I mean, he even entered the room like he was a video game boss!
The Doctor, however, comes to realize that even he has been mistreating Mickey, underestimating what he can do; the scene where he gradually codes a message to Mickey, who is on the zeppelin and trying to disable the inhibitor code, is one of my favorites, especially as the Doctor begins to get more and more blatant. The thing is, I thought this was a way for MacRae to set up Mickey to feel better about his arrangement with the Doctor, but this wasn’t the case.
The “goodbye” scene at the end of “The Age of Steel” is still heartbreaking to think about. I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that I teared up as Mickey revealed his plan to remain in the parallel universe to help Pete and Jake and to be with his grandmother. It’s sad that it took Mickey traveling to an alternate world to feel complete, wanted, and useful, but it’s probably the most sensical thing that happens in the entirety of “The Age of Steel.” I think the Doctor realizes this and that’s also why he doesn’t try to further convince Mickey to stay with him on the TARDIS, despite the fact that they can never return to this world to bring him back.
High five, Tom MacRae. This is my favorite part-two episode yet.
THOUGHTS
- There are going to be a lot of these, so buckle in.
- KILLING MRS. MOORE. HORRIFIC. Necessary, but totally sad.
- KILLING JACKIE. Holy shit, REALLY? Man, this episode is FUCKED when you think about it.
- THE DOCTOR KILLING LIKE THOUSANDS OF CYBERMEN/HUMANS. Now that is truly awful. They weren’t just evil entities and in order to kill them, he had to send them into a fit of despair which killed them. Wow.
- Ok, so I mentioned there were a lot of plot holes. A LOT OF THEM. Here goes:
- I hate hackers in movies/TV. I HATE THEM. I’m sorry, how the fuck would Mickey know how to hack that zeppelin. Every time they zoomed in on his fingers slamming on that keyboard, I laughed. It just makes no sense.
- WHY IS THERE A PORT INSIDE THE BATTERSEA STATION THAT PERFECTLY FITS ROSE’S CELL PHONE. No. I can suspend my disbelief to accept Cybermen, but I can’t accept that.
- Ok, that weapon that Mrs. Moore used….it essentially electrocuted the Cyberman, right? So why didn’t they just find a way to electrocute them?
- There was not enough scowly Mickey here.
- The Scooby-Doo reference was fantastic.
- The explanation of the Mickey/Ricky thing is AMAZING. So did the Doctor always sort of know that Mickey would assume the role of Ricky and stay in the parallel universe? OH GOD BRAIN EXPLODE.
- “I’d call you a genius, except I’m in the room.” OK IT’S IN THIS EPISODE. IMDB, you should stop lying to me.
- “I once saved the universe with a big yellow truck.” Oh, Mickey, I’m going to miss you. 🙁
Let's get this clear right off the bat, I don't hate this episode. Heck even the worst of Who is better than most sci-fi shows. But if I had to pick one word to describe it it'd be disapointment and that's always a horrible feeling. Before we get to that though let me hit on what I did like.
Lumic continues to be a great character. Oh totally over the top and still existing entirely on a diet of rich, tasty scenery but all in the best tradition of Who bad guys through the ages. Frankly I was just impressed that he manged to maintain his hammy ways even from BEYOND THE GRAVE! Sorry, couldn't resist. The Cybermen still look great and the body horror elements of their backstory are well realised. The Doctor disabling the emotional inhibitor in a single cyberman (or cyberwoman in this case) and the conversation that followed is a great Series 2 moment, right up there with some of the best (albeit almost directly stolen / borrowed from The Big Finish audio Spare Parts). Pete is just brilliant and a really good, likeable character. You can't help but wonder what Rose would have been like if he'd been around and, y'know, alive when she was growing up. Also really like that they killed Jackie, it's a great way of using an established character to really drive home a plot point (though I wish they'd not been QUITE so heavy handed showing how much of a nasty and shallow person she was in this reality in part one) without actually killing her and it's always good to shake the audience up a bit. Also Mickey gets a good chunk of screen time to go along with his new haircut and Noel is clearly having a blast as Ricky.
So on to the not so good. Rose, obviously, is still on my 'worst companions of all time' list here but as my reasons remain the same as part one, albeit verging dangerously close to entering 'too dumb to live' territory on occasion, I'll move on. The Doctor flat out FORGETTING Mickey in the middle of planning the big rescue / evil thwarting guild raid is appalingly bad and utterly out of character. This is the Doctor, a hero who is almost exclusively reliant on his incredible intelect and improvising skills to save the day and he forgets an asset who's proven time and again he does come through in a pinch? No, sorry, that's the needs of the plot outweighing the need for honest characterisation. Talking of which… there's the resolution to the cliffhanger which comes TOTALLY out of left field and makes no sense whatsoever and the entire sequence in the Cyber Factory is just awful. Even RTD admits that the big Cyber Controller confrontation never really worked but the entire plan is dumb. Let's break this down for a moment:
Rose and Pete enter through the front in disguise to find Jackie and once they find her they'll….. what exactly? Die horribly right alongside her I presume 'cause there's no way they're getting out of there alive and once they stop blending in. The Doctor and Mrs Moore go through the tunnels to sneak in to the factory, okay that makes a bit more sense. Except a) Mrs Moore gets killed by a Cyberman that was apparently wearing carpet slippers (seriously, they're the loudest bad guys ever, how did they sneak up on them?) and b) it seems a wee bit pointless when Mickey and Jake make it to the zeppelin ON THE ROOF with little trouble. Let's stay with the heroic twosome for a moment, they get on the zeppelin, somehow manage to trick a Cyberman into punching out the transmitter control which also kills said Cyberman (HOW much voltage / current was in that thing?) and then Mickey pilots the zeppelin without any training whatsoever to the point that he can place a rope lader within a few feet of the daring escapees. Talking of which, the last time we left our intrepid gang they were all caught and would be immediately deleted right? Well no, as luck would have it they're ALL brought, unrestrained and without being so much as searched, to the heart of the operation. Oh well, they're bound to be killed NOW right? Uh… no. Cyber Lumic decides to have a REALLY long chat with the Doctor and doesn't seem to mind when he starts ranting about stuff that makes no sense at ALL in any context other than talking to a remote observer about how to bring down the CyberEmpire. Which… can be done via a phone apparently thanks to the latest bit of genius from Mickey Smith, Wonder Hacker. Which turns OFF all the inhibitors which is kinda the one thing you'd think Lumic would have ensured were hardwired on considering removing them leads to head popping.
So our scooby gang race to the roof, pausing only to visit the CyberDisco (complete with impressive pyro, who knew Metallica were performing at Battersea that night? Sorry), grab the ladder and escape pausing only to drop Lumic back into the inferno (although really, whoever managed to make a rope ladder that can cope with a Cyber Controller jumping on-board ought to just sell the tech and retire). Mickey, being surplus to requirements, stays behind and we're off to the next adventure! Yeash, what a mess. Obviously in that universe no-one ever wrote the Evil Overlord list.
My biggest problem though is with the Cybermen themselves. I like the redesign, I like the voices, I like the shots of them walking through London but they never got their 'Dalek' moment. Never, not once, were they really made into the sort of deadly threat that their status in the Whoniverse's Evil League of Evil deserves and it brings down the whole episode, especially when they seem to develop terminal stupidity at the end of part 1 and demonstrate it time after time here (a chain link fence stops them killing Mickey? They don't immediately delete the people trying to stop them? They develop a tendency to give loooooong rambling speeches for no reason?). There's one other problem too and it stems from making them Earth-based Cybermen rather than Mondas-based. It's established that this is a parallel world roughly on a par with our own technology-wise. Okay, I'll buy that someone figures out how to do Cybermen, I'll even buy the Cybus Network but when you get right down to it the Cybers themselves are going to be made of contemporary materials. So why, when they attacked London, didn't the army swat 'em down in three seconds flat? They're not invincible, the army is around (albeit enforcing curfew in Part 1) and there's only "hundreds" of them. Hmm…. Sadly they kept the creepy parts of the Cyber race intact but neglected to really give them a sense of menace.
One last thing (sorry this is so long) that I do want to mention though is Mickey's exit. THIS is really well done and you can't help but feel for the guy. He stays behind to help others and, really, is there a better reason for leaving your old life than finding a better one? And you know what… look back on Mickey's time on the series with unbiased eyes and that's something he's been doing since day one. He's never mean or nasty towards Rose and indulges her when she wants to visit someone she found on the Internet, he saves Jackie (twice!) despite her clearly blaming him for Rose's vanishing act, he treks all the way to Cardiff(!) when called, keeps an eye out for weird stuff and calls Rose back when he finds something (and, without that, the universe would have been pretty much screwed), never stops caring for Rose despite being routinely ignored and treated like dirt and you can't help but think part (maybe a small part but a part nonetheless) of the reason he stays behind is to get out of her way, one last thing he can do for her. So here's to you Mickey Smith, may you become the badass in Cyberworld you so richly deserve to be!
Mickey. Best character in the new series so far. Very nicely put!
Yep. Pretty much all of that.
This x 1000000000000000000000. And upvoted to infinity.
Yes. Mickey is amazing. Which is why I almost threw something at the television when Rose's only reaction was "But what about me?" OMG ROSE TYLER, STFU.
Well, she was going to miss him. I knew that that line would be an incentive for people to get on her case again here, and my defense is this– she let him go. She said a thing, but she didn't push it. She just said goodbye and cried and walked away, and let him do what he wanted. In the end she wasn't selfish.
I don't disagree with everything you've said….about the plot and how it doesn't seem well thought out, about how stretched it seems, etc., etc. I actually nodded along to some of it.
…But I still really enjoyed this episode. Mainly for Mickey's character, and because it was still enjoyable to watch around and despite those parts. I don't know what it says for the show that I've come to not care too much about the plot holes, and just do a bit of eye rolling when something happens, except that I am still greatly enjoying it more and more each episode regardless.
"KILLING MRS. MOORE. HORRIFIC. Necessary, but totally sad."
I really liked her, and it is totally sad. I love how moments before she is killed, the Doctor looks at her and says, "Can I do that?" regarding giving all of the cybermen awareness. I really like that moment, and then it's over so quickly.
"“I’d call you a genius, except I’m in the room.” OK IT’S IN THIS EPISODE. IMDB, you should stop lying to me."
But IMDB lying to you gives us awesome gifspams, so it's okay, right?
<img src="http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/Doctor/xeor2c.gif">
<img src="http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lezc35VNi71qgpf31o1_500.gif">
I don't know why I've put this here, but what's done is done. No use trying to explain it.
It doesn't need to be explained, it is awesome enough without an explanation!
Yay for imdb mistakes.
<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/2wh2mwn.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src=http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/barrowman.gif>
A+ gif usage.
<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/10zaa8m.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
That gif is the best gif in the world.
<img src=http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/Doctor/10564g4.gif>
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/2jga5hd.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
This will probably post twice
<img src=http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/Doctor/2v28j74.gif>
Who cares, it's an awesome gif. I really need to rewatch that episode.
<img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/25j8lf5.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Tis an awesome episode, too bad we have a long way to go before it is out of spoiler territory and Mark can watch it.
I get into these gifspams with you and I don't want to be the one to stop it!
<img src=http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/Doctor/or8rqx.gif>
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/spg7mg.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
I don't think I have many more outside Doctor Who gifs so you can have the last one if you want.
I was running out too
<img src=http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/Doctor/v5a1d4.gif>
<img src="http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5435/dwbarrowmanguiltysmile.gif">
Oh, that is so cute! I'm so sorry, I accidentally downvoted it when I meant to upvote!
<img src="http://i39.tinypic.com/qxjw1v.jpg">
<img src="http://i40.tinypic.com/24bnkzt.jpg">
I don't know where my other gif went but I love that these guys are unafraid to make fools of themselves.
I… what is that from? I MUST SEE IT, WHATEVER IT IS.
(I madly love penguins. XD)
Sure it's just the penguins you love? Just kidding. http://www.desivideonetwork.com/view/z7snc0rd7/da…
I want him to read me a bedtime story!
I'm not actually too into Tennant in that way XD But I do have an obsession with penguins. Thank you for providing that link! <3
ETA: OMG THAT IS SO CUTE I LOVE HOW HE TALKS TO THE STUFFED PENGUIN! Major awwww points to anyone who does that! XD
I seem to be becoming one of those people that assumes my obsessions are shared by everyone else, I'm sorry!
You're Welcome! There are a couple clips of him reading bedtime stories on that site.
No, don't apologize, there's nothing to be sorry about! XD
And I will definitely be checking those out!
That is the most adorable thing in the known universe (and probably a few parallel ones as well). The voices he does for the animals are hilarious.
It's also fueling my desire to see Frobisher in the New Series. The Doctor needs a talking alien penguin as his companion, guys!
I would upvote this a million times, and then a million times more, if I could, because I agree so hard.
I've never seen the video behind the gif before but the cuteness, so much cuteness. I'm just grinning at the screen.
that is WONDERFUL! I wish I could upvote this gif half a gazillion times 😀
….I'll be in my bunk. SLASH THEORIES PROVED.
Watch the actual thing. I nearly died laughing.
lol John
I'm glad Mickey managed to get a satisfying character arc. He deserves it for all the undeserved shit Rose and Ten piled up on him.
All the love for Mickey. I think he gets forgotten about in NuWho companion discussions, but I think he has a great little arc and even the actor Noel Clarke appreciated his role in creating the character.
He totally does get forgotten…but I can't point out the biggest example of that because it would be spoilery. Crap.
Yay! I loved this episode when it aired. It was so interesting and a good introduction to the Cybermen but OH! Are they tragic? just.. a bundle of nerves.. suffering.. in total pain but inhibited. Gha.. creepy.. almost Moffatily so.
Oh, and I think I should mentioned, I had a dream about your sites Mark.. and they had their new awesome layouts!
Try and catch either some of the early Cybermen stories from the Classic Series (Tomb of the Cybermen I think is the earliest that survives intact) or, even better, the Spare Parts audio story by Big Finish. The second one in particular is utterly horrifying (and was LIBERALY 'borrowed from' for this episode then watered down for TV).
"So did the Doctor always sort of know that Mickey would assume the role of Ricky and stay in the parallel universe?"
Interesting question. It *is* kind of funny to me how Ten doesn't bat an eye at letting Mickey stay in the parallel world, but tells Rose in no uncertain terms in the previous episode that she "CAN'T stay."
(…. course, much like Russell T. Davies, I am a huge Ten/Rose shipper, so I have my own shippy explanation for that XD)
Considering the general 'flying by the seat of the pants' nature of RTD's tenure and the insanity surrounding the first season I'd be inclined to think it was a joke that found a home when sorting out Series 2.
"Considering the general 'flying by the seat of the pants' nature of RTD's tenure"
What?? He had the most incredibly detailed story arcs and is an admitted Ten/Rose mega-shipper. There was nothing "seat of the pants" about RTD and characterization or story arcs. I can clearly only use season 1 as an example at this time, but the Bad Wolf arc was very intricate. "Seat of the pants" is so random and inapplicable to RTD to be laughable.
What kind of a joke would that be? It's not even funny. It's a little detail like the thousands of others he inserts in his scripts. It's what gives most RTD-era episodes such rewatchability: every time you see them again, you can catch a look, a line of dialogue, the way something was shot, the expression on an actor's face, the mirroring of one episode's dialogue to another … all very intentional, if you have taken the time to read interviews with BBC staff or read A Writer's Tale.
I've read The Writer's Tale cover to cover several times (and am currently on the way through again) and it's VERY clear he's making up the details as he goes along. Oh the season arc is usually plotted out but details like Mickey / Ricky certainly ain't. Just re-read any section when he's on a deadline and it's all right there in black and white with a mad panic to get things written (usually late) and IN HIS OWN WORDS he admits not having a clue how to resolve issues. That's not plotting ahead of time, that's knowing roughly where you're going and winging it. And there's nothing wrong with that, I have a lot of respect for RTD as a writer (although oddly I came away from that book with FAR more respect for him as a producer, missed his calling there), but to claim he had 'the most incredibly detailed story arcs' and WASN'T winging it after you've read that book just doesn't ring true. Sorry.
Umm, also, the Bad Wold 'arc' was anything but intricate. All he did was drop the words "Bad Wolf" into each story, make an aside to it in Boom Town and then use it in the finale. It's a nice bit of story telling but intricate it ain't. If you want an example of intricate arcs go watch Babylon 5 all the way through, THAT was plotted out to the nth detail from day one.
Yeah, the "Bad Wolf" arc was a load of bollocks. When she could have just as easily written "Dongs Dongs Dongs" across all of space and time and had the same impact, it makes you realize how dumb it was.
It did always annoy me how as a phrase, it was meaningless – "bad wolf" as a phrase has no relevance to Rose and she only chose it as the phrase to scatter because she'd already seen it. I mean, I don't mind the stable time loop aspect of it, just that the phase had no affiliation to her until she used it.
What is this, "The Writer's Tale?"
It's a collection of emails written between Benjamin Cook, a journalist, and Russell T Davies, attempting to outline the process of writing for TV as its happening. They cover the latter part of Davies' tenure and are therefore entirely spoilery at this stage.
There are two editions, the latter one with extra material taking things through to the point where Davies left. Here's a link, as someone else has said, even the cover is spoilery if you're only up to where Mark is with the series:
http://www.thewriterstale.com/
Ooooooo! I will be buying this now! As long as I can convince them to take my money.
WTH Amazon.com, usually ships between 1-3 MONTHS? Wow.
Word of warning. The first edition (the one with the scripts in) is very good, but really heavy! It actually hurt my wrists to read it. The reissue is lighter but lacks many of the scripty details (though has more on how RTD was dealing with the Specials). Also illuminating on how issues such as loss of a major prop shipped halfway round the World months earlier can be dealt with as a writer via one sentence, but requires rather more organisation as a producer. And of course the (ahem) nature of the hotel that the case are staying in becomes clearer…
Oh, yes. I saw that it was textbook-like. No worries, I've gotten used to textbooks in my time. ;P Still buying them, sadly. 😉 But I am a crazy person and I actually bought both, since I also read that the first edition is in color as well as has lots of RTD notes whereas the paperback isn't in color. I want everything, dammit! It's okay though, they weren't that expensive. (It's kind of funny that they weren't more like $70 a pop considering they ARE more like textbooks. Would not have bought both if that were the case.).
The confidentials went on about that prop, so I do know what you're talking about, although I'd like to hear more anger from people since the confidentials were kind of NICE about it. How the hell does that even happen?! Hollywood producers would have sued the hell out of everyone for that and we'd all be boycotting that company. 😉
But. Hotel? I can't wait to read all about it.
Do you know if the hardcover book for sale on Amazon.com is the same book as the paperback? It looks almost as if the only version that's the new edition is the paperback. And if that's the case I'm not getting from Amazon.com because of the aforementioned '1-3 months' wait time.
The hardcover is the earlier version. The paperback has the extra material.
It could be worth looking at amazon.co.uk, the shipping costs might be lower than you think and I imagine a lot of sellers will be selling cheaper copies on the UK site – not all ship internationally, but a lot do.
Okay. Well, I am looking at both. But I guess my biggest question when it comes to buying on amazon.co.uk is– how do you pay in dollars? ;P Is that hard or easy to do?
Just wanted to edit and say that now that I've actually tried, they have a currency converter. Lovely!
And Bad Wolf only came about because the crew started adding it stories having noticed it elsewhere. It evolved as the series was produced, it wasn't planned from the beginning.
So your point is … it wasn't planned until it was planned?
Which was about halfway through the season, if not longer. And the crew put a lot of references in without being asked. He put it into "Aliens of London" without being sure exactly what he was going to do with it. It ended up in "The Unquiet Dead" because they were running under time so the whole conversation between Gwyneth and Rose was written during filming and added late on. In "The End of the World" it wasn't in the original script and the line was added in post production, which is why you don't actually see the Moxx saying it. I'm pretty sure the mention in "Dalek" was added in post as well (as messages to Rose go, it's quite a long way off beam).
It only really came together when he was working on the final scripts and he realized he could use it as a way of Rose sending a message to herself. Luckily the crew had done the poster in "Father's Day" and the bomb in "The Doctor Dances" on their own initiative, so it was easier to work it in to other episodes where it hadn't been mentioned and make it a stronger theme for that series. He'd originally thought it might stretch into the next series or be dropped if he couldn't think of anything to do with it.
So, improvised more than planned I'd say – planned implies in advance and a lot of Bad Wolf was done either surrepticiously or retrospectively.
It's like the Face of Boe saying he'd give the Doctor his message the next time he saw him – that was a last minute change. They even filmed the message before Russell changed his mind and wrote a new scene.
He's a great improviser and is very good at picking things up from previous episodes and working them in to new stories, but there's very little to suggest that he knows in advance how all the elements are going to come together.
"Which was about halfway through the season, if not longer. "
The scripts aren't written chronologically, let alone edited/shot that way.
"there's very little to suggest that he knows in advance how all the elements are going to come together. "
There's even less to suggest that he flies by the seat of his pants =P Come on already …there's no way you are a Who fan of the magnitude you must be and not notice the details in his scripts. He references things from Classic Who all the time. His season-arcs are always in EVERY script of the season that is not Moffat-penned (editing rights). His characterizations build slowly and steadily, they are not haphazard, which is how you seem intent on painting him for whatever reason. The nuances are there, he talks about them, the actors talk about them … to say you don't *notice* them is one thing,but to say they *aren't there* is willfully ignoring the statements of half the production team.
I'm not talking about detail and nuance and neither is Steven M, you're reading things into people's posts that aren't there. We're talking about working methods and it's just a fact that Russell T Davies introduces things into stories without a clear idea of what he's going to do with them (Bad Wolf) or revisits something to give it added significance later on (Micky/Rickey).
That doesn't make the finished product slapdash or mean that nothing is planned.It just means that he knows he can't think of everything in advance and so seeds elements that he knows he can pick up at a later date, if necessary, even if he doesn't at that point know what he's going to do with them. Or he'll spot the potential of something he did before and work it into a later script, expanding its signifcance beyond what was originally intended. He's also not afraid to change things at the last minute (rescripting the Face of Boe's last scene in "New Earth" after the original version had already been shot) or to take a story in a interesting direction even if he doesn't, at that point, know how he's going to resolve it (see The Writer's Tale). None of this makes him a bad writer, quite the opposite, but it's palpably the way he works – there's a ton of documentation to support it.
Aliens of London was one of the first scripts written (Christopher Eccleston had read it before he accepted the role) and it was filmed in the first block. Bad Wolf/Parting of the ways were filmed in the last block, roughly eight months later. "Bad Wolf" was originally called "Gameshow World" in the pitch document. Having introduced the concept in the "Aliens of London" script with no clear idea to its significance, he was only at this late stage that he worked out its role in the series and the episode got a new title. This is all documented in the Doctor Who Magazine Series One Special Edition, in articles about the production by Andrew Pixley.
The Bad Wolf stuff from that is summarised here:
http://www.shannonsullivan.com/drwho/serials/2005…
When it comes to Micky/Ricky, RTD himself has commented on it. Nanceoir has already posted about it:
"In the Confidential episode for this episode, RTD talks about the Mickey/Ricky thing. He was saying that he liked having the Doctor call Mickey the wrong name because it's just this incredibly rude thing to do, and so it was funny.
Then again, he was also saying that he could come up with a completely fannish reason for the wrong-name-calling. Which he followed by saying it started for the laugh.
Oh, RTD, never change.
All of which is to say that it's probably a case of writerly serendipity that worked beautifully. I love it when that happens."
http://markwatches.net/reviews/2011/01/mark-watch…
I can pretty much guarantee that Russell didn't have the parallel world storyline in mind when he wrote "Aliens of London". It was a happy accident that he capitilalised on brilliantly, but it wasn't a plan.
Crikey all this discussion over a simple and factually based point about the way RTD works.
You are completely misquoting him. He tends to work right on top of deadline, yes, and he tends to jump into it with both feet — but that doesn't mean that he doesn't put detail and nuance into his scripts. It means he's an ARTIST with a specific artistic technique. The last episode of s4 wasn't finished until the last minute — and yet, if you've read the book, you'll know that he spent a MONTH laid up in bed writing and rewriting a certain scene so that it came off perfectly. That is not a "seat of the pants" writer.
I can't see how you can honestly say that he doesn't put detail into his script. He's almost OCD about it. I think your opinion is being influenced by your overall dislike of the Davies years. Which is fine, just be honest about it.
Why do you persist in seeing this as some kind of war between pro- and anti- RTD camps?
It really isn't like that and its bad faith to assume that people always have agendas.
And I think it's an extremely distorted view to claim all the people you do as shippers. But shipping is essentially a distortion of the drama anyway.
Yeah, I'm not seeing how you saying that RTD is a great improviser translates to you being anti-RTD. That's a compliment – you're just saying that he works a different way than someone else thinks he does, nothing about how you feel about the quality of his work in and of itself.
"I'm not seeing how you saying that RTD is a great improviser translates to you being anti-RTD"
I didn't say that. But when someone repeatedly, episode after episode, refers to RTD's work as sub-par and haphazard, it's not a leap to think they don't like RTD's work.
I think they do have a point though. RTD has done some great episodes, and deserves credit for reviving the show, certainly. But not all of any writer's stuff is going to be fantastic, and simply dropping the same phrase into multiple episodes does not an intricate or detailed arc make. I love the first season, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't say it had that sort of seasonal arc.
It's a brilliant addition and shows the utility of introducing something interesting even if you don't know what you're going to do with it (which is what happened). But it's not intricate and it certainly wasn't a plan.
When Russell T Davies sat down and wrote the script for "Aliens of London" he had no idea what "Bad Wolf" painted on the side of the TARDIS was going to mean. That's documented and it's just the way he works. I'm more than fine with that because, as far as I'm concerned, it's always worked out really well.
And Moffat isn't really that different, he doesn't even write outlines for anything he writes – he just dives in and sees where it takes him.
Yeah, that's what puzzles me about this whole thing – you've not been saying he's a bad writer, you're just talking about the way he works. Not intricate and not a plan doesn't necessarily mean not good, and not everything even needs that kind of story arc. I think it served the first season well to be done the way it was, and it's interesting to watch the seasonal arcs become more connected.
And like you, I find the endless Moffat vs. RTD wars tiresome. It's true that I like one more than the other, HOWEVER. I DO like stuff by both, and I see flaws and merits in each, and if I'm discussing the flaws or merits of one in an episode discussion, I'd really like to be able to do that without having the other mentioned. I just want to be able to focus on one writer at a time without it turning into "But Moffat!" "But RTD!", you know?
"I didn't say that. But when someone repeatedly, episode after episode, refers to RTD's work as sub-par and haphazard, it's not a leap to think they don't like RTD's work. "
But nobody you're replying to has said that. You're seeing things that aren't there.
"Why do you persist in seeing this as some kind of war between pro- and anti- RTD camps?"
Stephen_M has made his dim views on RTD quite clear on this board, and so have you. I firmly believe most of (nonvocal) fandom probably doesn't care one way or another, but if someone dislikes RTD or Moffat, than they should admit they dislike RTD or Moffat and not pretend to be Switzerland on the issue.
"And I think it's an extremely distorted view to claim all the people you do as shippers."
Nah, I just claimed Moffat/Eccleston/Piper/Tennant/Gardner spoke in interviews and Confidentials about the Doctor and Rose being in love with each other. Davies shipped, big time, no ifs ands or buts about it.
From Russell T Davies himself:
"What Rose brings to the Doctor’s life is completion, it’s completing a circle – he’s male, he’s alien, he’s a traveler. Between the two of them together they complement each other and discover each other. And are in love with each other, absolutely, unashamedly, unreservedly."
If this is not shipping, then nothing is. Dude, **I** ship Ten/Rose and even that statement is a little too gooey for **me**!!
I love that statement. It makes me a happy person. Where did that statement come from? Trying to absorb the Doctor Who world in such a short time is HARD.
Writer's Tale =)
What do you think my views on RTD are then?
I think he's probably the best writer ever to write for the series, that what people see as "plot holes" often aren't at all, it's just lack of information, which is a stylistic decision. I prefer his approach to any other writer, but I can see why it isn't necessarily for everyone.
I also find the to-ing and fro-ing between in the Moffat v RTD battles a little wearisome. I basically like all of Doctor Who, old and new, and don't care for the partisan stuff. As I've said elsewhere, I think most fans feel that way, certainly most of the general audience does (they're only one episode in the whole series that they could even have said to be luke warm about – and even then the BBC3 repeat audience in later months rate it as high as any other).
If someone says something apparently critical about an aspect of RTD's work it doesn't mean they have an agenda to discredit the man that they somehow have to admit to. They're just doing some analysis and stating a view. Here's Stephen M again, since your posts read like you haven't really read what people are saying (it's a common problem on Internet discussion, people respsond to what they think the other person is saying).
"I've read The Writer's Tale cover to cover several times (and am currently on the way through again) and it's VERY clear he's making up the details as he goes along. Oh the season arc is usually plotted out but details like Mickey / Ricky certainly ain't. Just re-read any section when he's on a deadline and it's all right there in black and white with a mad panic to get things written (usually late) and IN HIS OWN WORDS he admits not having a clue how to resolve issues. That's not plotting ahead of time, that's knowing roughly where you're going and winging it. And there's nothing wrong with that, I have a lot of respect for RTD as a writer (although oddly I came away from that book with FAR more respect for him as a producer, missed his calling there), but to claim he had 'the most incredibly detailed story arcs' and WASN'T winging it after you've read that book just doesn't ring true. Sorry."
That is not the opinion of someone who dislikes RTD's work and "should be honest about it".
As for the shipping thing. ship means "relationship" and the Doctor/Rose dynamic simply doesn't work in the way that other relationships do. So corralling general statements from the production crew and actors about it to back up a specific interpretation of what's going on doesn't really work – they may not have meant what you want them to have meant.
Also, it smacks of a desparation to try and legitimise an interpretation above others. Ultimately what really matters is the text, the performance and there can be different valid reactions to that regardless of what the creators say about it.
I'm curious about your statement that shipping is a distortion of the drama. Can you elaborate?
That was partly my impatience showing and is almost certainly an unfair generalisation. However the idea is that it's a bit like confirmation bias – your preconceived idea of the characters feelings for each other leads you to interpret the way their written in a certain way, rather than being open to judging things on the basis of what happens. It can lead to negative reactions to character to behaviour that seems to go against the preconceived idea of the relationship that the character is in (which seems to be at the root of a lot of Girl in the Fireplace hate, especially when directed at Reinette). I think it also extends to interpreting the statements made by people in the production team in a certain way, as kind of appeal to authority that an particular interpretation is the correct one.
It seems to me that part of the way that drama works is that people don't always behave the way you want them to and shipping two characters can make you less open to that.
But I'm not sure that applies equally in all circumstances, so that sentence is unfair an too general, but I do see it around and about. For example, people who ship Arthur and Merlin in "Merlin" get upset by the whole Arthur/Gwen thing (even though it's a big part of the legend) and then morph into the idea that it's badly written.
I just think that even though they acknowledge it in "Merlin" by playing up the bromance between the leads, the idea that they're in love or lust is just a nice fantasy that's tangental to the actual drama that's playing out on screen (see also House/Wilson).
With what people call "Canon ships" it get's a bit more complex but the pitfalls still remain – the Rose/Doctor relationship is not necessarily as you imagine it to be and you can't just ignore stuff that goes against how you want things to be or dismiss contrasting interpretations of what happens on screen.
The "you" in this reply is a rhetorical "you", by the way, I don't mean you, rys.
Thanks for clarifying. I think we are in agreement, so long as we steer clear of generalising all shipping, which you've already noted! I've seen a few comments (not from you) dismissing shippers as irrational, unrealistic or inflexible in their views, and I think that's off-base — it's actually probably true of a percentage of all fans, but there are also plenty of shippers who wouldn't fit the description.
Likewise, though I know there are many different interpretations of the Doctor and Rose's relationship, I personally think Doctor/Rose is in the text and so can't see people's shipping of it as a distortion of the drama — just a response to what they're seeing on-screen.
'your preconceived idea of the characters feelings for each other leads you to interpret the way their written in a certain way, rather than being open to judging things on the basis of what happens.'
I think people do this anyway, just with characters. You build up an idea of who a character is while you watch them, and how they are likely to act. If the writers deviate from that it's not necessarily bad writing, but it's not automatically good writing either.
Um, I think I remember RTD saying in one of the commentaries that the whole bad wolf thing was just randomness that he figured out a use for way after he came up with it for the first time… he's a talented guy but every interview I can remember seeing of him talking about the writing etc (and as an avid watcher of the behind the scenes stuff, that's a lot) where he talks about planning it's generally along the lines of "I don't do it"…
Like I responded to someone else … so the point is that Bad Wolf wasn't planned, until it was planned?
It's not a plan if you think of it afterwards.
Wow, as I've been reading this thread, all your comments seem to have been downvoted. So I upvoted them all, kind of in spite of whoever was doing that. 😛
I appreciate your comments, and if indeed "Bad Wolf" was included in earlier episodes without having it planned to be Tardis!Rose at the end, then I totally agree it's pretty sloppy.
And I think you've been quite reasonable and have consistently delivered on this blog with interesting stuff.
Have a hug!
<img src="http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5392/lotrfrodogandalfhug.gif">
(You'd be Gandalf)
On the voting thing, if people are using upvote to agree then I think it's logical they use downvote to disagree. I know it can seem a bit personal, but it's not a 'you suck!' vote, more of an 'I disagree' vote, right?
Saying this just because it seems there's been some discussion over downvoting being a problem, but if we're okay with voting agreement I think it makes sense to use it for disagreement too.
(For the record, i haven't downvoted anyone in this thread! Just jumping in with a thought.)
I and several other people upvote even if we don't agree with someone's comment, as long as it's polite and well-thought-out.
If we had an official voting policy, this is what I'd want it to be – let's not "punish" well-thought-out posts that contribute to the conversation.
Pretty much the only things I think should be downvoted are spoilers and *ist (eg sexist/racist) remarks. (And to realize saying something bad about say a female character isn't necessarily or even usually sexist)
That's exactly what I downvote, too.
I think many people do. But in the main I would say it's used for disagreement.
There's been quite a few comments on how to use the voting, maybe a discussion would be helpful.
I think any well thought-out argument or amusing anecdotes deserves an upvote. I only tend to downvote rudeness and spoilers. A lot of times I upvote posts I see that seem to be in the negative for no reason.
And I hate to say it, but it seems to me like some people are being downvoted just for expressing dislike of certain writers/plots/people/aliens. In this thread, the opposite seems to be happening. So, at least it's equal opportunity downvoting, I guess?
"And I hate to say it, but it seems to me like some people are being downvoted just for expressing dislike of certain writers/plots/people/aliens."
This is what I mostly want to avoid – people should be free to express their opinions, and not have unpopular opinions "punished." People like upvotes, and it's understandable they wouldn't therefore like downvotes, so let's use downvotes sparingly.
I want people to be encouraged to 1. upvote what they like/agree with, 2. consider upvoting that which they disagree with but think is still interesting. and 3. not downvote for simply disagreeing.
I never upvote myself, which gives people who want to downvote me a head start.
On the whole, I hope that people will pay more attention to the actual comment than the score.
The main benefit of the system, I think, is warn Mark and others about spoilers in comments. It also helps to let people know if they're being rude* but I've feeling we're getting some more combative attitudes from some of the commentors, which is a shame but I don't really see anything by the way of bickering, so I don't think it's a big deal.
Certainly, compared to a lot of forums, these comments seem very civilised and usually productive.
Forgot my footnote:
*Doctor: Am I being rude again?
Rose: Just a bit, yes.
(From memory, so probably wrong, but you get the idea.)
That's the thing, though, I don't think it's sloppy – I just think it's a way of working. Introduce something that you think is interesting and then pick up on it later when you've worked out what to do with it.
As I'm about to say above, it's documented that this is what happened with "Bad Wolf" and RTD has admitted that there was no particular reason that he got the Doctor to call Micky Ricky, it just illustrated the spikiness of the relationship and he thought it was quite funny.
Come the parallel world idea, it's then a opportunity to link back to the first series, so RTD and Tom MaCrae seized on that opportunity. The effect on the text is the same as if it was planned, but if we're talking about working methods, then that's simply not the way he does it.
I think Bad Wolf adds another layer to an already brilliant season, but it's not, in itself, that intricate. And he did get lucky because the set designers had picked up on it before he'd decided to make it so integral to the first series.
Like I said, it's not a bad way of working, it's the final effect that counts and you can plan everything in advance and be dull and unable to deviate from your plan. Douglas Adams wrote each part of the original Hitch Hiker's episode in the week before they recorded the next one (he was often writing new bits on the day). At the end of part one, when Arthur and Ford get thrown out of the airlock, he had no idea how he was going to rescue them. He did it deliberately because I though that what he came up with would be interesting – and it was.
Thanks for the hug! I appreciate being appreciated, but I think I may try and refrain from responding to kilodalton in future, if I can, since I'm not sure if there's too much communication going on – and it sometimes annoys me and makes me snippy. Also I start to wonder if the back-and-forth get's a bit tedious.
I'm certainly getting a bit bored of essentially saying the same thing again because it was misinterpreted the first time around.
I agree. The Bad Wolf thing is not sloppy at all. He didn't know if the show would even work – nobody did – let alone have enough of a week-to-week viewership to even notice or appreciate any kind of series arc. When it's highlighed in Boom Town and the Doctor dismisses it as co-incidence, RTD was quite prepared to leave it at that, but in the end he decided he would make it mean something.
Series arcs then became stronger/less vague because he grew more confident that they would work without alienating the casual viewer. And now we have Steven Moffat speculating in Doctor Who Magazine whether the episodes of the new series could be even *more* linked. (I have no information on S6 so this is just speculation, not a spoiler.)
(Comment split for length…)
I did this in the previous post and I'll probably end up doing it again in the future but
<img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/a2gdqe.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
I was reading back through this post this morning to see how discussion went after I went to bed (boo time zones) and you are always clear, concise, well informed, patient, back yourself up and overall state your opinion so well. Clearly all the logic is yours.
I totally agree! I'm always happy to see a post by Matthew because I know I'm going to learn five things I didn't know before in a polite and interesting manner. I've followed his posts upvoting them.
psycicflower, you are my hero for the Community gifs. 😀
Gosh, I'm feeling fuzzy.
I try to be interesting. And it is all about love for the show, even when people get a bit ratty.
He plans a lot of stuff, often by thinking about it loads before he get's down the concrete part of writing the script. The important thing is that everything is fluid and individual details are often not significant until he makes them significant later on.
The final effect is the same but the working method is not one of planning every last detail in advance.
In the Confidential episode for this episode, RTD talks about the Mickey/Ricky thing. He was saying that he liked having the Doctor call Mickey the wrong name because it's just this incredibly rude thing to do, and so it was funny.
Then again, he was also saying that he could come up with a completely fannish reason for the wrong-name-calling. Which he followed by saying it started for the laugh.
Oh, RTD, never change.
All of which is to say that it's probably a case of writerly serendipity that worked beautifully. I love it when that happens.
It's okay Mark, it's okay. You just fell in with a bad crowd, that IMDB lot have ALWAYS been trouble. You're back where you belong now, we'll look out for you 😉
http://www.geekologie.com/2011/01/wtf_was_that_by…
WHAT?!
[IMG ]http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/Merides_bucket/Doctor%20Who/555222.png[/IMG]
this is what I meant to post
<img src="http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/Merides_bucket/Doctor%20Who/555222.png">
D'aww, that was nice of you to help. =3
I have had that kind of day before and I'm always glad when someone helps out. It's all about internet kharma.
Yeah, I fail at life today too. You win the internets.
[img ]http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/Merides_bucket/Doctor%20Who/555222.png[/img]
Dayum. Just go find it yourselves, people. I LOLed, anyway.
HUFFLEPUFF.
WHAT?! Oh, fuck. I give up.
you need to html not bbcode html is angle brackets, bbcode square ones.
the html is (img src="url"), replacing the regular brackets with angle brackets (or "less than" "greater than" signs in maths). Or better still, read this:
http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_img.asp
So, here's your image:
<img src="http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/Merides_bucket/Doctor%20Who/555222.png">
The code, without the brackets, being:
img src="http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn16/Merides_bucket/Doctor%20Who/555222.png"
Should have read the replies to the last post!
Anyway, there are some details now,
Did anyone else think when Lumic was dying/burning he sounded a lot like Chewbacca?
And 'I'd call you a genius but I'm the room' is a glorious line.
*ties up hands to stop herself spoiling*
you are not prepared you are not prepared you are *not* *prepared*.
You are as unprepared as unprepared thing that was not prepared to do any preparation.
Mark should watch Blackadder, no? 😛
That would be beyond awesome 😀
YES. PLEASE it really would be.
*forwarding this motion*
Seconding! Blackadder is too full of win.
Then he needs to watch Jeeves and Wooster!
That plan is so cunning, you could pin a tail on it and call it a weasel! 🙂
(I am handing them out liberally today)
High fives for all of us Mark because we are all your favourite commenters of all time ever? 😀
*holds hand up*
<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/10gz5tc.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
::HIGH FIVES::
I haven't re-watched this episode many times and reading your review I'm trying to remember why…I mean, it's full of plot-holes and makes next to no sense but it's also heart-breaking and sweet and has that FANTASTICALLY BAD shot of Cyber-Lumic plunging to a fiery death as they fly away CLINGING TO THE ROPE LADDER OF A ZEPPELIN OH GOD I CANNOT IMAGINE HOW THAT WAS EVER WRITTEN INTO THE SCRIPT THAT DIDN'T MAKE SOMEONE LOL. XD
But yeah, I am remembering only really enjoying this episode. I should watch it again. ALSO THE END OF MICKEY? SO SAD. I was just getting used to him being in my TARDIS and then he went to live in a parallel universe. WILL MISS YOU DUDE. If I had the gif of him running into a wall, I would bring it now.
(Also there is a deleted scene for this episode with Jake and Mickey in the van where Mickey is all 'just so you know, I'm not trying to replace Ricky' and Jake is all 'Ricky was my boyfriend' and Mickey is all 'okay I am REALLY not replacing him'. It is sweet and funny and one of those awesome references to the fact that the entire world isn't straight that RTD was so fabulously good at.)
Well, it's not so much a scene as it is a few cut lines, but here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3MzNvT5q6E
Yeah, yeah "I'm REALLY not replacing him" but then he suggests they go and liberate Paris, of all places. Try harder, Mickey. At least I hope you fixed your gran's carpet before leaving.
I think it's a fair bet that the rope ladder scene was ONLY left in because a) they wanted an excuse to leave the zeppelin's in and b) the script called for Rose to be in a maid outfit at the time. I suspect b) played a larger role in the decision.
I just hope her "father" never looked up. (No, I couldn't think of anything else in that scene, couldn't she have been the last one?)
Mickey running into a wall for you.
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/3bvdh.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
*rightclicksave*
Thank you, saviour of my post! 😀
Oh, Mickey. This is one of my favorite episodes, and most of that is because of Mickey. This is where he really comes into his own, and as someone who always loved Mickey, I was overjoyed to see that, even if it did come along with him leaving.
This episode is a great example of one of my favorite things about Who. The secondary characters. Over the course of two episodes, MacRae makes viewers CARE about these characters like Mrs. Moore and Jake as if we'd known them forever. Time and time again we meet new characters that are only around for an episode or two, and yet they feel like real people, with real history and a real past.
Another thing I loved about this two parter is alt!Pete. Partially because I just love Pete, and partially because this episode really surprised me. I didn't like the idea of him showing up again after Father's Day. I thought that was plenty of closure and I was honestly a bit worried that this episode would sort of lessen the emotional impact of Father's Day the first time I watched it. I was pleasantly surprised to find that that really didn't happen at all. This may have been a Pete, but it's clearly a DIFFERENT Pete, not an exact copy. This allows original!Pete's story to still have just as much emotional impact for me, at least.
Oh my show, I love you so hard.
In many ways, I'm glad for Mickey, that he found a place where he fits and can be what he knows he's capable of. On another, I feel cheated by the goodbye scene between him, The Doctor and Rose. Especially Rose. After how easily she cast him aside, how petulant she was that he would be joining them on the TARDIS, I'm just like, "Really, Rose? This much crying? I'd believe a little sadness, sure, but she was crying like someone had just killed her mother (her actual mother, not AU!Jackie) in front of her. *eye roll* Whatever, Rose. It's all about you, anyway.
I don't know. The part of me that loves Mickey is glad for him finding a place where he fits. The rest of me is just so angry at Rose for casting him aside–and for the entire message of the Mickey-and-Rose years of Dr. Who (that is, that normal guys who treat you well and genuinely care about you should be cast aside so you can go on flights of fancy with a man who will put your life in danger however unintentionally over and over again)–that I just…can not even deal with it.
Well to be fair, when Rose left Mickey and wentwent off in the TARDIS she knew she could always come back and find Mickey. Her plan never involved leaving him forever and never ever seeing him again. And…now she isn't. Maybe I'm just particularly over-emotional, but if any of my friends (let alone a guy I'd known my whole life and dated and never really properly broken up with) were going off into another universe and I knew I was NEVER going to see them again, I would sob. Just because she doesn't want him in her life in the same way she wants the Doctor doesn''t mean she doesn't want him in her life AT ALL.
Agreed. Then again, I'm the sort of person that cries when I'm separate from my best friends for a few months, so… I might be biased.
No but considering that a huge part of why he is going is because of the way she and the Doctor treated him and wanting better for himself, she hardly has any right to suddenly sob over the consequences of her actions and make it all about her.
I don't think that's completely fair. Yes, she and the Doctor were both a huge part in causing Mickey to make this decision, but I don't think she doesn't have the RIGHT to be emotional about it, and I would hardly call doing so making it "all about her".
I agree, if my best friend of many years stays in a parallel universe, just as if he had died, I would cry, even if it was partially my fault it happened.
I wish we had more time with companion!Mickey.
If someone makes snoopy decision–in this case, Rose’s treatment of Mickey–and then they are faced with the well-earned consequences of that decision, I expect them to face up to those consequences and accept them, not bawl like a baby and make the moment all about how they feel instead of how the wronged party feels. You treated him like shit, Rose. He’s moving on. Stop your whining and just be glad he’s even still willing to speak to you.
That was crappy decision, not snoopy. Fucking autocorrect on my phone.
Most of the time I'd join you first in line to complain about Rose's selfishness but I don't see it here, I'd cry just like she is crying because her best friend is just as good as dead. I just can't blame her.
Exactly.
fair enough, but not everyone has quite enough control over their emotions to behave that way. Mickey was a very old friend of hers. She treated him badly. While I agree that she was much worse to him than vice versa, he wasn't entirely faultless either. Look at his reaction to her work blowing up in "Rose". He almost immediately wanted to go to the pub. Yeah, this wasn't played as being too bad and I think it's typically male, but I think it's pretty showing of the fact that Mickey was NOT perfect either. I'm not saying he deserved that treatment, of course, but he and Rose could both come off as a little uncaring. That doesn't mean that they didn't care, and that shows in Mickey's loyalty to her and in Rose's reaction here. She took him for granted, and now she's losing him because of it. That hurts, and for an emotional person like Rose, it's going to show.
Yes – it's gonna hurt, and it's gonna show. Frankly, if she hadn't cried, it would have made her seem inhuman to me. And honestly I don't think I agree with kaci in the first place that Rose has somehow lost her "right" to be emotional.
Perhaps I used the wrong word when I said "right." I do not mean "right" as in Bill of Rights, as in the government should come haul her off to jail. What I mean is that she does not deserve to be weeping like that over him finally reacting to the way she treated him.
Let's say that I believed the Rose/Doctor shippers–I don't–that their relationship was romantic. Can anyone tell me when she broke up with Mickey? Hmm? Because all I remember is her kissing him on the forehead and running off into the TARDIS. So, if their relationship was, in fact, romantic, she cheated on him. And yet here, when Mickey finally "breaks up" with her once and for all, she weeps like a baby and asks, "What about me? What if I need you?" LITERALLY making it about HER feelings, HER reaction, HER pain.
And yet? Not once during that conversation does she take the time to say, "I'm sorry. I shouldn't have treated you the way I did. I should've at least done you the courtesy of ending it properly."
No, sorry, she might have the legal right to stand there and weep all she wants, but she doesn't DESERVE to, she hasn't EARNED that reaction, not ONCE has she shown ANY actual care for him, and frankly it makes her all the more unsympathetic for making this moment ENTIRELY about her.
Saying someone doesn't deserve to feel sad over losing their friend is…actually mind-boggling to me. People need to deserve their feelings now? Wow. Sorry.
People don't. Fictional characters do. Or else, it's that thing we call "bad writing."
Why is that bad writing? Genuine question, because I don't get it at all.
Because in reality, people have flaws. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to terrible people. That's reality.
In fiction writing, your characters should absolutely have flaws. I'm not saying they shouldn't. However, they should LEARN from their mistakes or, at least, at some point, ACKNOWLEDGE them. Otherwise, it comes across as though the show were CONDONING the poor behavior. That makes it bad writing. Rose doesn't apologize for the way she treated Mickey, or acknowledge it. She just asks, "What about me?" FURTHER making their relationship ONLY about how SHE feels. That's poor writing if the audience is supposed to feel anything for her at all. Of course, by that point, they'd already lost me with Rose so far ago that it hardly matters. There was no way they'd redeem her in my eyes with a simple, "Hey, Mickey, I'm sorry I treated you like shit, because I did, didn't I?" "Yeah, you did, but I forgive you."
I see what you're saying about characters developing and growing, but I don't think that's the only good way to write characters. You're suggesting that there needs to be a moral outcome to the character stories — that people who have behaved poorly should regret it or learn about their flaws and improve. Also that if the character doesn't address their behaviour, it looks like the show is saying it's ok.
I agree that it's good when shows don't glorify or support bad behaviour. I think the problem is here that not everyone sees the same flaws when they look at Rose. I don't think she treated him all that well, but I also don't think the show made that seem ok. Everyone here certainly had sympathy for Mickey, even when he behaved a bit foolishly himself. I don't think we got that sympathy because the show ignored how he was treated — it addressed it, even if Rose didn't have a big revelation.
I just think this is a different approach in telling stories. I would have found it a bit moralistic and unrealistic if Rose had turned around and said she hadn't treated him as well as she could and she was sorry — their parting was about two old friends finding out their lives lay on different paths, not about a jilted ex-boyfriend and his former girlfriend. I think at that stage whatever break-up issues that were between them paled in comparison with them being friends since they were 5 years old, and that it wasn't the defining issue of their relationship with each other. I think Rose's response 'what about me?' was a last little call-back to the way she has probably relied on him for a long time, to the way they probably did everything together growing up.
And I don't think Mickey left simply because Rose and the Doctor were being all Bonnie and Clyde without him — this was his growing-up moment. I think he realised that he needed to stand on his own two feet and stop holding on to Rose in the same not-quite-healthy way she was holding on to him.
I know you saw something completely different to that, but that's what I saw and it seemed to me to be nicely written for the characters. So I guess it's a matter of perspective.
I would disagree – I think a person always has a right to have an emotional reaction to something, whether it's about you or not. We are naturally very emotional creatures, and sometimes you can't help but cry, even if you know it's not necessarily appropriate or what the people around you need/want. After promising my mum I'd stay strong for her at her father's funeral, I couldn't help but cry. Was I being selfish? Yes. Could I help it? No. Should I be judged for it? I like to think not.
And actually to be honest, I think Mickey is probably glad she cried. After all, if she'd just gone 'oh okay, have a nice life!' and left with nary a sad word then he'd have been massively hurt and we'd all be going on about what a callous creature she is.
^ this. I should stop posting and just keep agreeing with you, Hanah:D
But then we should miss out on your awesome words and better ways of putting things! And that would be tragic. 🙁 I am glad that you agree with me though – thanks!
Copy/pasting this because honestly, I give the fuck up when it comes to Rose apologists:
Perhaps I used the wrong word when I said "right." I do not mean "right" as in Bill of Rights, as in the government should come haul her off to jail. What I mean is that she does not deserve to be weeping like that over him finally reacting to the way she treated him.
Let's say that I believed the Rose/Doctor shippers–I don't–that their relationship was romantic. Can anyone tell me when she broke up with Mickey? Hmm? Because all I remember is her kissing him on the forehead and running off into the TARDIS. So, if their relationship was, in fact, romantic, she cheated on him. And yet here, when Mickey finally "breaks up" with her once and for all, she weeps like a baby and asks, "What about me? What if I need you?" LITERALLY making it about HER feelings, HER reaction, HER pain.
And yet? Not once during that conversation does she take the time to say, "I'm sorry. I shouldn't have treated you the way I did. I should've at least done you the courtesy of ending it properly."
No, sorry, she might have the legal right to stand there and weep all she wants, but she doesn't DESERVE to, she hasn't EARNED that reaction, not ONCE has she shown ANY actual care for him, and frankly it makes her all the more unsympathetic for making this moment ENTIRELY about her.
"Copy/pasting this because honestly, I give the fuck up when it comes to Rose apologists"
Wow. Talk about snippy. All I'm doing is giving my opinion on matters. There's no reason to get rude like that because my opinion and that of other "Rose apologists" differs from yours.
I never once thought you meant the legal sort of right, and I don't think Mickey deserved that reaction from Rose in the slightest. I do, however, think it was a perfectly legitimate and, more important, realistic reaction. She didn't say what she should have said, but she also didn't exactly have the time to think about what she should or shouldn't say. She said what she felt at that moment, exactly like Rose has a tendency to do.
"not ONCE has she shown ANY actual care for him"
Rose mistreated Mickey. That is true. But she also very obviously cared for him, in my opinion. She was the one lecturing the Doctor back in "Rose" for not caring about him. In Boomtown she has him bring her passport. Not because she actually needs it, but because she wanted to see him.
And speaking of Boomtown, that episode serves to discount another issue you had.
"Can anyone tell me when she broke up with Mickey? Hmm? Because all I remember is her kissing him on the forehead and running off into the TARDIS."
MICKEY
I'm going out with Trisha Delaney.
ROSE
Right… that's nice… Trisha from the shop?
MICKEY
Yeah, Rob Delany's sister.
ROSE
Well, she's nice… she's a bit BIG…
MICKEY
She lost weight.
You've been away.
ROSE
Well, good for you. She's nice.
The implication there is that at this point, the two were far from exclusive. In fact, by your argument, Mickey would have been the one cheating right there. I'm not saying that, because Rose absolutely deserved to have him go off with someone else after abandoning him, but I'm just trying to point out why your comments on the Doctor/Rose front were a bit silly.
There's a lot more I could cite, but I don't want to risk spoilers so I'm going to leave it at that.
Absolutely I'm being snippy. I'm being snippy because every time someone on this site posts something anti-Rose, they're immediately descended upon by a thousand people going, "Yeah, she did that awful thing, but it's REAL!" It may be REAL, but it doesn't mean we have to LIKE it. JFC.
By the time Boomtown comes around, she's been with the Doctor for quite a long time, "cheating" on him. SHE "cheated" first. He REACTED to her "cheating" by trying to move on with his life and she reacts jealously. And before anyone says, "YES, BUT ISN'T IT REAL TO BE JEALOUS OF AN EX'S NEW SIGNIFICANT OTHER?" Yes, it IS but that doesn't mean you LIKE it.
I don't care how REALISTIC her behavior is, it's DEPLORABLE and that argument is RIDICULOUS.
And yes, I am being snippy. I've tried being reasonable and pointing out specific quotes. That didn't work out too well. It's like we're watching two entirely different shows so like I said: I GIVE UP.
I posed a reply to this earlier and somehow it didn't show up, so here it is again.
Absolutely I'm being snippy. I'm being snippy because every time someone on this site posts something anti-Rose, they're immediately descended upon by a thousand people going, "Yeah, she did that awful thing, but it's REAL!" It may be REAL, but it doesn't mean we have to LIKE it. JFC.
By the time they get to Boomtown, Rose has been off with the Doctor for quite awhile, "cheating" if the Rose/Doctor shippers are to be believed. At the very least, she abandoned him. And then when he tried to move on, she reacts overly jealous.
Basically, their entire relationship can be summed up thusly: Rose fucks off. Mickey remains devoted. Rose fucks off more. Mickey tries to be a good person and help her out when she calls upon him. Rose reacts jealously when Mickey finally gets the hint and tries to move on. When Mickey finally joins the TARDIS, she reacts petulantly and like a child, because she doesn't want him around. And then, when he FINALLY grants her stupid, selfish wish and decides to leave, she weeps like a child because POOR ROSE, HER FEELINGS ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT MATTER.
People can go on and on about how "realistic" it is all they want. It doesn't mean anyone has to LIKE it or that they can't judge her for it.
I'm, er, not actually a "Rose apologist" as you put it. I don't actually like her all that much. I just disagree with you here because you are denying someone an emotional reaction and that doesn't make sense to me.
I don't mean the Bill of Rights either. (Assuming that's a Bill which is about human rights like the right to free speech and religion etc – I'm not American so I don't know for certain!) I mean, (to use your terminology) that you don't get to 'deserve' emotions isn't a concept that can exist to me. We have emotions. There is no stopping that. Whether it might be appropriate or not, we get them. If I am upset, I can't help but cry. Even if the reaction is coming from a selfish place, you get that reaction. It's not a case of 'deserving' it. It's a case of just having it as a natural part of being a human. You might not like someone having an emotional reaction of one kind or another but nobody 'earns' emotions. At least not in my world view.
And besides, you can't talk about the legal right to have an emotion. If the government suddenly turned around and said 'from now on you ONLY GET TO BE SAD IF SOMEONE YOU KNOW DIES. THAT IS THE ONLY TIME' then it would be the biggest fail ever. Just saying. It could never have been about any legal right to have an emotion because that concept is insane.
I agree that Rose is a little bit selfish in this scene. And maybe it would have been nice to apologise for being mean to him. (Also I am confused by your cheating comment. Yes she went off with another man, but they made it very clear – in the first series anyway – that they weren't together in any way romantically. They never kissed or went on a date or slept together or anything that I would consitute as cheating. Not until the finale and the 'I must suck the vortex from your soul with the power of my Time Lord-y lips!' kiss, by which point Mickey had already told Rose he was going out with Trisha or Tracey or whatever her name was. But I may be remembering incorrectly – if you can remember a time when she did actually cheat on him, please remind me of it and I'll be happy to retract that statement.)
But I think we are not going to agree on this, and I don't want to get all angry and strident, especially not in what is usually such a happy place as Mark's blog, so we should probably agree to disagree and move on to the next episode?
My comment re: cheating was due to Doctor/Rose shippers claiming their relationship is a romantic one. I do not believe it ever was. But many claim that it always was. By the time they finally "end it" in Boomtown, she's been off with another man for quite awhile, stringing him along.
See, once again, I have to point out that I am talking about a fictional character. In real life, people have reactions and that's fucking fine because they're human beings, and they're allowed. But if you're writing fiction and your character is supposed to be "The Heroine," it's bad writing to have her constantly making everything about herself, to be having unjustified emotional reactions, and to be claiming another character's emotional moment for her own. That moment should've been about how Mickey felt about leaving and instead, everything from the dialogue–"What about me? What if I need you?"–to the way it's directed–the camera stays on her face far more than it does his, registering HER reaction to make you feel badly that HE'S leaving HER–is designed to make the moment all about Rose. And from a WRITER'S PERSPECTIVE it is UNEARNED. IT IS NOT DESERVED.
Fiction, people. Fiction writing is NOT reality. And it has DIFFERENT RULES.
You know what? I'm just gonna go beat my head against the nearest hard surface, because it'll be just about as productive as this.
I got an email notification of a reply from you that never showed up here for me, but I still feel like sharing my reply to it, so it here it is.
No one EVER said you had to like it. I can't speak for all these "Rose defenders" out there, but all I'm trying to do is have an intelligent debate, because intelligent debates are something enjoyable to me. I don't try to "attack" anyone, I just try to put forward my view of a character that I see differently, and I try to do it in a mature fashion. There is NO need for unnecessary rudeness, and your rude tone is the ONLY thing I may have been "attacking". I've read this entire thread several times through, and no one else is getting anywhere near as angry as you or behaving so immature. We're arguing our points without flipping out and angrily bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with the topic as if its evidence against us, like the "doctor/rose shippers" and Rose cheating. There is absolutely no reason why you should behave so rudely when all we're trying to do is have a discussion. If you can't handle a bit of other people expressing their views without flipping out, maybe you shouldn't be posting your opinions on the internet.
Actually, whether or not Rose was cheating is HUGELY important to this moment and her treatment of Mickey. It's HIGHLY relevant. Whether you believe she was or wasn't, or agree with my point, that really doesn't matter. It's relevant.
My "tone?" It's the internet. I didn't realize anyone could hear me speak. It's rather hard to gain someone's tone solely through words on a screen.
And I was not referring solely to this thread. On several reviews in a row now, several commenters who dislike Rose have written well-thought out arguments about why they dislike her, including quotes and other evidence to back those opinions up. Nearly immediately, several people who like her have swooped in and the only argument they seem to be able to come up with is, "Yeah, she has those flaws, but it makes her REAL!" That's not an argument. That's an excuse.
Also, you clearly haven't ventured too far out into the internet if you think someone ranting shouldn't be allowed to post their thoughts on the internet. Because…wow. I'm fairly sure if you took ranters off the internet, all that would be left is the porn. (Which might not actually be a bad thing…)
Um… no. Not really. Considering you specifically said you DON'T think the Doctor and Rose had anything romantic going on, the idea of her "cheating" is completely irrelevant, especially given that none of the rest of us had brought their relationship up at all. And for the record, I don't think they were either. Mutual attraction and affection, sure, but nothing even remotely physical, unless you call holding hands and hugging cheating.
Tone: The manner in which speech or writing is expressed.
I've seen a few Rose fans making irrational arguments in the comments here, yeah, but just as many haters that do. None of the rest of us in this particular thread brought up "you Rose haters are always attacking us" here, did we? No, we kept to the topic at hand and tried to have a mature discussion.
I'm not saying you can't have the thoughts you have about her. Lots of people don't like her either, including several of the people who have commented in this thread. The difference is, they seem to have realized that people's opinions can differ without it becoming a personal attack on them, which is honestly how you come off.
Again, never said you shouldn't be allowed to post your thoughts. Just that maybe you shouldn't if you're going to react to conflicting opinions like they're attacks.
See I'm sorta on-board with that except I kinda got the feeling she wanted him in her life as a back-up. A spare. Someone she can use when she needs to and ignore when she doesn't. With him gone she'd lost that option and was more upset about that than him actually leaving. But, as I think is common knowledge by now, I have a very low opinion of Rose anyway so my views are without doubt clouded by that.
"See I'm sorta on-board with that except I kinda got the feeling she wanted him in her life as a back-up. A spare. Someone she can use when she needs to and ignore when she doesn't. With him gone she'd lost that option and was more upset about that than him actually leaving"
I completely 100% agree with this. I don't think she knows she's doing it, and I think she would be horrified to think about it that way — but I think that's exactly what she's doing.
And Rose is my favorite character in all of NuWho … so I don't think your dislike of her necessarily colors that. I love her! But that is a big fault she has.
Well that saves me posting 😉 ^ This.
(was to Hanah way back up there. hmmm this threading is not the most helpful!!)
Very jumbled comment ahead (I'm ever so slightly sleep deprived atm so this isn't going to be the most well thought out comment ever).
Mickey is awesome. I'm sad to see him go but he's totally going to go off and have badass adventures with Jake in their blue van (I love that it was blue, kind of like a nod to the TARDIS…well that's how I took it).
I didn't mention it in the last post but I kind of love Mrs Moore/Angela Price, I loved that she was basically prepared for everything, the two different torches in her bag and all sorts of other little gadgets.
ITA agree about Alt!Jackie's death. She wasn't a particularly nice person in this version but her death was so utterly horrible. I think the fact that we don't find out about it until Rose and Pete do just makes it so much worse.
I said before that Lumic felt over the top in the last episode but, strangely it kind of works once he's converted. I thought maybe he'd just finally reigned it in a bit but then one of he'd say something and the hamminess was there so…I don't know.
Umm, unfortunate use of the word 'badass' before the line 'adventures with Jake in their blue van' there considering the unspoken subtext that was rapidly becoming text during the course of the episode…. 😉
Other than that yep, I'll go with that (although Lumic is so over the top I can't help but enjoy him).
Yeah I did rewrite that part once or twice before just realising anything I said would sound wrong considering the subtext.
Actually trying to write this reply is running into the same problems (I shouldn't post while tired, it's just asking for trouble).
I say go with it, at the very worst you'll accidentaly create some gay porn and can probably sell it on to a suitable high-class top-shelf publication 😉
Or just post it as fanfic on the internet.
For a minute I wasn't sure if they'd killed Mickey or Rickey, I felt a bit bad being relieved that it was Rickey who died.
I can't say enough 'This' for everything you said about Mickey. It's amazing to see how far he's come from the comic relief in the first episode to the hero in this. Even if it did take being trapped in an alternate universe I'm so happy he finally found somewhere he felt he belonged and didn't have to continue feeling useless.
Fun fact: There's a deleted scene where you find out the Jake and Rickey were actually a couple.
I really like Pete in this episode. He isn't a bad guy but actually a spy. I can understand why he didn't want to talk to Rose at the end. He'd just lost his wife in a terrible way so I don't think he'd want to be confronted with the idea of another potential family that isn't quite his.
The Cybermen on the whole are pretty terrifying but not in the oh no bad guys way, although all that stomping is effective enough. For me it's the people mindlessly being marched towards a horrifying end and that the best way to kill them is to let them feel emotions and go mad with hatred and disgust for themselves.
‘Let’s go liberate Paris.’ ‘What you and me in a van?’ ‘Yeah, what’s wrong with a van. I once saved the universe in a big yellow truck.’
Mickey/Noel Clarke party anyone?
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Where's that last pic of BAMF Noel from?
A short film he was in called Reign of Death. I haven't seen it myself, just came across pics on google and couldn't not share.
I was sure you could watch it online and you can:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa9O5PTNct8
It has a facebook page as well:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Reign-of-Death/1264…
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<img src=http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj278/pez47/Doctor%20Who%20Miniatures/Salute%202010/Battle%20of%20Canary%20Wharf/mickey-smith-14-g.jpg>
Where is that last one from? He looks so hot in that hat!
A short film he was in called Reign of Death. I mean hat, suit, black and white, looking like a BAMF I had to share it once I'd found it.
OMG the last one! Where is the last one from?!
I'm sorry, I hadn't refreshed so I didn't see you had answered that.
Still, so hot.
A short film he was in called Reign of Death. Found earlier via the magic of google images.
<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/15s3g5w.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/292xzjr.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Looks good enough to eat.
I feel so shallow, but oh my god
I have no pics/gifs, how about a link to that cut dialogue that reveals Jake/Ricky? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3MzNvT5q6E
I'll just close with Mickey/Noel Clarke FTW!
MAN. THAT LAST PICTURE IS PRETTY AWESOME.
Sorry. That last picture made my head go all wobbly for a second but now I'm back and it is totally Noel Clarke appreciation time!!
<img src="http://www.clashmusic.com/files/imagecache/node_article_image/files/Noel_Clarke.jpg">
<img src="http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Gala+Screening+Doctor+Christmas+Episode+529zTDwEcNBl.jpg">
<img src="http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04GL755bQS2Fn/610x.jpg">
<img src="http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Orange+British+Academy+Film+Awards+2010+Winners+N1iuXYdp0Pzl.jpg">
I had to include that last one, just because of how put out he looks.
I do love the contrast between his expression in those last two pics.
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Exactly he knows how to smile, he is just choosing not to for KStew.
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(what are Jackie and Ten wearing? IDEK)
Also-
<img src="http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/thegeekfiles/Noel%20Clarke%201.jpg">
I just have to add, on a shallow note: Camille, honey, WHAT is that outfit?
For anyone reading the comments and interested Reign of Death is available completely legally on youtube. It's only 5 and a half minutes long. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa9O5PTNct8
I need more Noir in my life.
I just posted about that in reply to you, above!
Should have read all the comments first…
It's cool, I wasn't sure if people would even read that far in the comments. Besides I didn't have the facebook page link anyway so thank you for that.
THAT LAST PHOTO. HOLY GOD.
We are going to encourage your rush as much as possible.
JESUS TAKE THE WHEEL
YOU SPEAK THE TRUTH
I forget that Ben from Byker Grove is in this episode until I rewatch.
I'm really sad that the line revealing the fact that Ricky is gay was cut from the episode. I thought it was sort of a neat, subtle thing that the more "manly" version of the character was the gay one. In fact I love how this who show treats various sexualities. Poor Jake, though, losing his boyfriend like that and then having to see Mickey every day. *hugs him*
I know! I love the random gay characters in this show, mainly because it's not even a large part of ANY of them. Too much television makes being gay the defining characteristic in a gay character, and I love that it's just… an afterthought for the most part here.
I don't know, I thought it was obvious from the way he reacted to Ricky's death. Was it just me?
Nope, not just you. I suspect Jake's copy of Brokeback Mountain got worn out quite quickly after the events of this episode…. (sorry, terrible joke, it's late and I'm tired).
Definitely not you. I'd suspected there was something going on between them throughout the episode and it wasn't until I finally checked Wikipedia toward the end that I found out about the cut scene.
Here's the deleted scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3MzNvT5q6E
I can't remember Russell's exact comment about why he cut it, but I think he thought it was too much on top of everything else at the end of the episode. And maybe it's a bit bluntly expositiony when the whole story is running down – just about OK if it was the beginning of a story but maybe sticks out a bit too much as a parting shot.
I still rather liked it though.
Nevertheless, that line was in the script, so Rickey and Jake are definitely played as lovers even if it isn't explicitly stated. So the reality is still there.
Damn, I wish they hadn't cut that!
YOU ARE NOT PREPARED
OH MICKEY YOU'RE SO FINE.
"But what about me? What if I need you?"
Shut up, Rose.
So Rose isn't allowed to be upset that Mickey is staying in a parallel world where she'll never see him again? Harsh and rude.
This is the last time ever you're going to say goodbye to someone you've known your entire life. Someone you KNOW you've been ignoring and treating like dirt (and acknowledged just a few hours earlier in-universe). He's staying to do the right thing and look after 'his' gran who he carries major guilt over after you've spent the last 24 hours tying to become a daughter for parents that neither know or want you. And you come up with a line like that to say goodbye? Actually, after everything he's put up with for her, that comes off as harsh and rude from her to him IMO.
While we're on the subject… everyone knows that this is a TV show right? And that these people don't actually exist? While it's fun to debate them and their characters can you really be 'harsh and rude' to a fictional character?
You sound mad.
Er… yes I'm aware they're fictional characters, thank you. That doesn't mean the sentiment behind "Shut up Rose" wasn't harsh and rude.
Erm, "come up with a line"? wouldn't you just say exactly what you were thinking then kick yourself afterwards? or am I the only person round here who suffers from foot in mouth disease? I can't imagine anything less likely than Rose having actually thought about what she is saying here, she's suddenly confronted with the fact that a guy she's known her entire life is going to be dead to her forever. That's not exactly time for logical thought even if you're not an emotional and not terribly mature 19 year old girl… if she hadn't have said something hopelessly inappropriate and then burst into tears, we'd be bitterly whining that she was acting out of character, no?
Upset, sure. But claiming to need him? After the way she'd been stringing him around for ages? That's just….well, it's very Rose, and I don't mean that in a nice way.
it IS very Rose, but I don't get why anyone is surprised or shocked by it… we know she's nineteen, not hugely mature, doesn't think things through/acts on impulse, and is selfish a bit too often. She's just acting in character. And I think many people would react in an overly emotional way and possibly say something horribly inappropriate in this situation.
I was neither surprised nor shocked – it was perfectly in keeping with her previous selfish treatment of Mickey. But why on earth should that preclude complaints? Why should Rose's selfishness be okay as long as it's consistent selfishness?
Fact is, she's been on the TARDIS for a year, and after "Boom Town" you'd think she learned something about her relationship with Mickey, but S2 is all about rolling back any maturation or education she may have gained in the past. Nineteen is young, and that's exactly the point – there's room for growth, for betterment, and Rose only becomes worse and worse.
I don't care if it's "realistic"; it's awful to have to put up with a protagonist like that, to be expected to empathize with her and want her to succeed. I don't want her to succeed, and I don't like her, but she continues to be the "heroine" of the story, constantly held up as super special and amazing and the Doctor's beloved, etc. It's hard for me to watch the show when the characters I'm supposed to like are so unlikable and the ones who are cool – Mickey and Jackie, for a start – get mocked, maligned, and sidelined.
Yeah, Danielle, that was incredibly hurtful. Now apologize to Rose and go to your room and think about how to treat fictional characters! And no cellphone for a week!
I love you guys, but you can get irritatingly oversensitive about the most tedious and trivial things.
Just my two cents: Rose's farewell to Mickey was a bit self-interested, especially considering how much she's mistreated him. He deserved better.
Random fact: A deleted scene reveals Ricky was Jake's boyfriend. So much for gay-agenda. They actually cut a lot of the pointless gay references out. Even in school reunion there's a line where a boy says to a girl that she should go out with a real man with the girl retorting that his boyfriend would never allow it.
The whole gay agenda thing is just in the minds of nervous homophobes who often hilariously talk about not wanting to have that sort of thing shoved down their throats.
The whole team's commitment is to making good drama and part of that is reflecting the fact that the whole world isn't straight, but if (as in this case) they feel that something goes against the drama, they'll cut it without a second thought.
It's interesting to hear Russell T Davies talking about "Queer as Folk" and his worries that it would turn out as unwatchably worthy. In the end he decided he should just be true to his ideas of the characters and their stories and not worry about whether that was a fair representation of LGBT people as a whole (which is never going to be possibly since all those people are individuals). That went double for "Bob and Rose" which ruffled a few feathers.
So really he has no agenda beyond an interest, partly because of his personal experiences as a gay man, in some stories that have generally not been told on TV.
If you can ever find Mark Lawson's interview with him it makes for really interesting viewing.
When most of the media seems determined to pretend that we live in an entirely heterosexual world, I would argue that there's no such thing as a 'pointless' gay reference. But then I'm a crazy idealist who believes in sexual equality.
I think there can be gay references which turn out to be superfluous once you get into the editing room and have to make your episode work as a 45 minute drama. But that has everything to do with their dramatic qualities and nothing to do with the sexuality they're describing.
The way I read the OP was making the point that if the supposed "Gay agenda" was a reality then there would be clear instances of moments that would be better cut that have been left in because they advance a cause when in fact the reverse seems to be the case – if it doesn't work for the story, it can go, regardless.
I suspect all that is lost on the kind of people who like to complain about these things, though.
My reply to you was swallowed up, I find that posting again brings back the disappeared post.
To add something new, here's Russell talking about "Queer as Folk":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXnZ0-LO994
Like I said, above, if you can find the whole interview, it's really interesting. There are some more excerpts on the BBC Worldwide channel.
Aargh! I've replied to this twice and it's disappeared both times.
I was pleased with what I said, as well. I'm now too tired to remember it.
The problem with Doctor Who is that after a while it seems like every single secondary character is gay. I'm in favour of presenting it in such an off-hand it's no big deal manner, especially since this is a family show and getting kids to grow up without prejudice is extremely important but the problem is that it's there too much. It almost becomes a game of which secondary character is gay this week.
Oh I don't know – considering they're flying all the way through time and space there are pretty good odds they're going to come across people of varying sexualities. And when you think about how huge the supporting cast of Doctor Who is, I don't think there are that many secondary characters who are actually gay/bisexual. Up to this point, we've had Jack, Jake and Ricky. If you then want to stretch it to very minor characters, there's also Cassandra who I seem to remember isn't straight and Algy the soldier who Jack flirts with.
That is a maximum of five references to people being anything other than straight in twenty episodes. And when the references to Jack and Ricky were cut out, that leaves us with three, one of which I'm not even entirely certain of.
I may be alone in this, but I really don't think that can qualify as 'every single secondary character (being) gay'
Sorry, correction – Cassandra wasn't implied to be gay, she was fairly explicitly stated to have been transsexual.
Which leaves us with two non-straight characters who's sexuality is referenced. Both in the same episode. I would not call that a gay agenda, especially when they were both in an episode by Moffat. (I know RTD came up with Jack but Moffat still wrote the episode to include his omnisexuality.)
"The problem with Doctor Who is that after a while it seems like every single secondary character is gay."
That's not a problem with Doctor Who, that's *your* problem with Doctor Who. Count them up, most of the characters are either straight or their sexuality isn't referred to, by some considerable margin. The episodes with no gay references in them vastly outnumber the ones that contain the odd line or character here or there.
Even that comparatively low level of representation may be unusual for TV drama, but the fault for that doesn't lie with Doctor Who.
Honestly – I don't think that cut scene is the right place for a gay OR straight reference. In terms of where it sits in the drama, *in this example* I think it's as unnecessary to explicitly state that he was gay as it would be to explicitly state that he was straight, had he been. Like, if Jake had said 'Ricky's girlfriend will be heartbroken' in that scene, for example, it would have just overloaded the close of the episode and also probably have been cut.
I absolutely 100% agree with you about the media assuming everyone is heterosexual, and I think that does need to be challenged – but not necessarily shoehorned in. I suppose it's like positive discrimination – yeah, gay characters should definitely be given representation and visibility, but in a fantasy/adventure story where a character's sexuality is largely irrelevant to the plot, maybe shame on the heteronormative viewer for making a sexuality assumption in the first place.
I've rewritten this comment about five times, so I really hope you understand what I'm trying to say!
And, from what I remember that's pretty much why it was cut, which makes sense.
I still like it but it's very much a "we are giving information" scene than something that feels like an organic part of the story.
It think that's it better that they're played as lovers – we don't really need to be told.
The stuff about sexuality in the series, is just there, part of the fabric of the world, I think, which is why the talk of an agenda is a bit silly.
I quoted some Moffat in another thread, but I'm going to repeat this one here:
"Russell doesn't hover around throwing in gay bits. Russell hovers around asking for more explosions and death. How little you understand the man!"
It think that's it better that they're played as lovers – we don't really need to be told.
Totally agree.
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This is all my brain thinks about this ep sorry.
YES. GIF OF BARTY CROUCH, JR.
IT TOOK ME FAR TOO LONG TO FIND THAT. THE INTERNET FAILED ME.
I SHALL RIP MY GOF DVD AND MAKE BETTER ONES AND THEN POST THEM AT SOME POINT. YES. EVERYONE NEEDS BARTY CROUCH JR. TONGUE.
This will not help, but here is another gif of Tennant's tongue.
<img src="http://i48.tinypic.com/2mq2r68.jpgf">
RIGHT CLICK > SAVE
omg he looks so strange here.
I think this is evidence that David Tennant looks like a CreepyStalkerMan with a goatee and should never ever grow one ever ever ever again.
The sideburns are the worst part. And the shirt does not help.
It's a bit like the bit in True Blood when Lafayette hallucinates about his mother. ERIC NEVER LOOKED HOTTER THAN IN THAT SHIRT.
I think we both can agree that Eric Northman's appeal is slightly different than David Tennant's. For instance, Eric Northman can pull off skeezy seventies style shirts.
THE DOCTOR KILLING LIKE THOUSANDS OF CYBERMEN/HUMANS. Now that is truly awful. They weren’t just evil entities and in order to kill them, he had to send them into a fit of despair which killed them. Wow.
I KNOW RIGHT? LIKE HOW DARK AND DEPRESSING AND SHIT IS THAT? I mean, he had to kill him. They weren’t really human anymore. They’d lost the bits that really makes us human.
Sidenote: I like that Rose recognizes the Cybermen from VanStatten’s museum. Rose IS observant and clever, afterall.
And the best bit of this episode? David Tennant spends it wearing a tux. Unf.
Something I’d like to address briefly is the fandom meme that series 2 Rose is clingy. WAT? Rose decides that she’s going to go with off on her own with Pete to try to save Jackie. Rose is clearly not attached to the Doctor’s hip. Sure, they love being together, but they’re not so connected that they can’t bear to ever be apart.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/GuyCrazy1017/Doctor%20Who%20screencaps/2x06doctorandrosehug1.jpg">
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Rose: Doctor, I’m going with him and that’s that.
The Doctor: No stopping you is there? [tosses Rose the ear buds]
Rose: Nope.
Also, poor Rose. She tries to reach out to her alt!dad, but Pete can’t handle it. Understandable since he just lost his wife and it’s a lot to handle, but I also get why Rose did it. It must have hurt to first be rejected by your alt!mom, have your alt!mom die, and then get rejected by your alt!dad. Ouch. And then directly afterwards, Mickey, her friend from all the way back when they were kids, leaves her for good.
Mickey: [My old gran] needs me.
Rose: What about me? What if I need you?
Mickey: Yeah, but Rose, you don’t. It’s just you and him, isn’t it? We had something a long time ago, but not anymore.
Rose: Well we’ll come back. We can travel anywhere. We’ll come a see you, yeah?
The Doctor: We can’t. I told you, travel between parallel worlds is impossible. We only got here by accident; we fell through a crack in time. When we leave, I’ve got to close it. We can’t ever return.
Mickey [sticking his hand out to shake the Doctor’s]: Doctor.
The Doctor: Take Rose’s phone. It’s got the code. Get it out there. Stop those factories. Good luck, Mickey the Idiot. [the Doctor playfully swats Mickey’s face]
Mickey [smiling]: Watch it.
[The Doctor goes into the Tardis and Mickey turns to Rose.]
Mickey: Thanks. We’ve had a laugh though, haven’t we? Seen it all, been there and back. Who would have thought, me and you off the old estate, flying through the stars?
Rose: All those years just sittin’ there, imagining what we’d do one day… We never saw this, did we?
[Mickey and Rose hug as Rose tries to control her tears]
Mickey: Go on then, don’t miss your flight.
Mickey has left the Doctor and now he’s going to be a hero in his own right. Who would have thought that this is the same man from “Rose”? Rose once told Mickey there was nothing left for her in her old life, and now we see that the same is true for Mickey. He’s got a whole new life to lead, and it is going to be fantastic.
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Finally, I just love that moment at the end where the Doctor takes Rose home to Jackie. Sometimes even grown women just want to hug their mum. (… or maybe that’s just me, lol.)
OMG, how could I forget the awesomeness of Ten in a tux?
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*drooling all over the keyboard*
I don't know, I'm rather fond of the coat he usually wears. But bowtie!
I have a certain response I want to make to this so bad but I don't want to risk quoting from a way future episode even though it's not really spoilery.
I know exactly what you want to say, and it's the first thing that came to mind for me too! So hard not to blurt it out.
I suspect I know what quote you're going for, and I wanted to say it too, but yeah, it could be seen as a spoiler.
In the first pic you posted, note Mrs. Moore and Pete looking away as they embrace to give them some "privacy." Clearly they were expecting more than just a hug!! XD
They lost the bits that make them human, but to kill them the Doctor has to put that part back. It's awful! At least he took a brief moment to consider how terrible that is.
I don't blame Rose a bit for wanting to see her mom after alternate Jackie was killed and she just said goodbye to Mickey. Hugs are totally called for.
They lost the bits that make them human, but to kill them the Doctor has to put that part back. It's awful! At least he took a brief moment to consider how terrible that is.
I love that. It's such poetic tragedy.
Rose had a rough day. Losing her alt!mom being rejected by er alt!dad and then having one of her childhood friends leave her forever. 🙁
"Finally, I just love that moment at the end where the Doctor takes Rose home to Jackie. Sometimes even grown women just want to hug their mum. (… or maybe that’s just me, lol.)"
I adore that moment too. And I love that he actually materializes the TARDIS directly IN the flat. He knew she needed her mum and he knew she needed her ASAP.
It might be the Tardis that knows that Rose needs her mother, and therefore materialises herself into the flat, seeing as the Doctor usually doesn't have overly much control over it.
Mickey. 🙁 🙁 🙁
The one scene in this episode that will always stay with me is when the Cyberman that used to be Sally Phelan "wakes up" and asks where her fiance is. Horrible. Not in the "bad scene" way, but in the way that it horrifies you the way it's meant to: it's utterly chilling and sad. I'm not really a fan of the current Cybermen designs, and they're not my favorite Who monster, but that scene and the way they all die at the end genuinely frightens and disturbs me in the same way that the Borg on Star Trek do. I can't forget those scenes.
That said, I felt the same way about the plot holes as you did, it just got ridiculous. I laughed pretty hard at the "hacking", and quoted a great line from YuGiOh: The Abridged Series that lampoons this kind of silliness perfectly: "I learned how to hack from watching old episodes of Star Trek." LOL. The cell phone thing really pushed my suspension of disbelief as well.
Poor Mrs. Moore and alt!Jackie. 🙁
I agree. It's just so horrible, and I think everyone's reaction shows how awful it is.
The cybermen traumatise another generation of small children.
Best companion ever spotted in your avatar! <3
That scene with Sally is absolutely heartbreaking.
I have a love hate relationship with that scene, I love how clever and chilling it is and at the same time it gives me nightmares and makes me never want to even use a mobile phone ever again. Ugh. It's horrible. But so well done.
The scene with the Doctor, Mrs. Moore and Sally the Cyberman is so gut-wrenching, but I love Mrs. Moore's line after the Doctor questions if it's a good idea to deactivate the other emotional inhibitors – even though there are still people inside the Cybermen and it'll drive them mad, the Cybermen still have to be stopped (and yes, the long dark corridor with all those quiet Cybermen is one of the creepiest things ever).
Good character turns indeed. Micky comes into his own, finally. Rose has been getting one emotional slam after another over the last few episodes, faster than she can process them, I'm sure.
All plot holes aside, I would enjoy this episode more if the Cybermen were more interesting. They're all brute force and stamping feet. No imagination, no strategy, no devious tricks. They have got to be the most boring villains in all of Doctor Who.
"Rose has been getting one emotional slam after another over the last few episodes, faster than she can process them, I'm sure. "
This.
"I thought I was broadcasting to the security services, what do I get scooby doo and his gang, they even got the van."
<img src="http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/vick1986_album/scooby.jpg">
XD
I of course can't stop thinking of Buffy when I hear that.
Deleted scene!
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FINE DON'T EMBED, BE LIKE THAT.
It's on YouTube here, anyway.
Ok, that weapon that Mrs. Moore used….it essentially electrocuted the Cyberman, right? So why didn’t they just find a way to electrocute them?
This is a question I always had. We know that the Sonic Screwdriver can do just about anything the plot demands of it, so why not build an EMP into it? It would be super useful whenever he was fighting any evil robots.
The Cybermen are not my favorite Who villains, but I do enjoy this episode for the character development– mostly Mickey's. He finally gets to be awesome and be his own person, rather than just sort of clinging onto Rose, which I always found problematic. Mostly because Rose treated him terribly, so I couldn't understand why he stayed with her. But now he gets to be in an alternate dimension kicking ass. 😀
The screwdriver, so far as I know, is never a weapon. That's pretty much the only rule limiting its functionality, no?
Indeed. Who looks at a screwdriver and thinks, oooh, that could be a little more sonic? The Doctor, of course 😀
Well, and also when something is 'deadbolted'. Which in commentary Russel says is codeword for 'we want to give him SOME obstacles'.
Mickey’s character receives perhaps the best story arc out of anyone on Doctor Who yet.
YES! Mickey really comes into his own here, and it's fantastic. It sucks that he had to go through so much shit to reach this point. But he does have one of the most interesting character arcs in the series, which makes it even more disappointing that he's put in the background so much.
Cybermen aren't my favorite Who baddies, but they're great in the blooper reels.
LOVE the cybermen bloopers 😀
See, I love these episodes for Mickey because he gets to be a hero and decide what path his life is going to take. The plotholes are awful — I seriously started laughing at there being a port for Rose's superphone — but they can't detract from Mickey getting to go off and save the world.
Was the climax of this episode supposed to be a comment on transhumanism? The Doctor's rant touched on the loss of emotions and creativity being terrible, but he really harped on the immortality of the Cybermen making their existence pointless. That's odd coming from someone who is nearly immortal himself due to the regenerations, and who's also broken up about the destruction of the also-immortal Time Lords. His argument with Lumic really should have stuck to the loss of individuality.
On the other hand, one of the things that kind of defines humans, compared to races that live a long time, is our impulsivity and impatience. Take away our brief lives, and we lose a large part of what it is to be human. My understanding is that it's one of the things the Doctor LIKES about humans, that makes the pain of befriending humans only to watch them grow old and die worth it for him. It may not be something he'd choose for himself, but he admires it in humans and is angry at it being taken away.
I get that the Doctor is protective of humanity, and that our ephemeral nature is appealing and problematic for him, so being enraged with the Cybermen makes sense. I just think that the vehemence he has when talking about their immorality and how it will stunt civilization is odd coming from someone whose people are long-lived and can travel through time. They could have seen the end of the universe. He doesn't think that their existence was pointless does he? It felt like MacRae talking through the Doctor. If he had focused more on robbing people of their emotions to make them immortal, rather than immortality in itself being an abomination, that would have been easier for me to swallow. But he really hits his fever pitch when talking about immortality. It makes returning emotions to the Cybermen to kill them a lot more brutal if the Doctor thinks that an eternal life with a human mind is wrong.
As I understood, the problem to the Doctor was: no imagination + inmortality = planet of death. Had the Cybermen kept their creativity he wouldn't have complained about the inmortality.
I agree that's what he's saying, it's just that he was more heated about immortality than imagination; it should have been the other way around.
Maybe he's lonely, being an immortal amongst mortals, and thinks that the gains of immortality don't outweigh the pains. With the other Timelords gone, there's no-one to keep him company and no guarantee that they can try to find ways to amuse each other forever. Or, the Doctor travels with companions with limited lifespans – maybe that's what he needs, because he CAN'T die. He travelled with Romana, but.. after that, just short-lifespaners.
Having an immortal rail against immortality is interesting, I think.
The Doctor has often gone on about immortality being a trap. The Timelords' solution wasn't agelessness, but regeneration, which comes with a price. The price is change (and often, death). The Doctor doesn't go on and on, exactly the same as he is today, never ageing, never changing. Firstly, he can die (and die forever if things go wrong) and the price is to change, physically and in many subtle ways in terms of personality. The Inner Timelord might remain the same, but he gains and loses things every time.
"We attack on three sides, above, between, below. We get to the control centre, we stop the conversion machines"
"What about me?"
"Mickey, you can um….."
"What? Stay out of trouble? Be the tin dog? No, those days are over. I'm going with Jake."
"I don't need you idiot"
"I'm not an idiot, you got that? I'm offering to help"
If i can be so bold as to borrow a line from the legend that is Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore:
"It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enimies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."
In this episode Mickey realises his potential and his courage. He stands up to the baddies and his friends and saves the world (with a little help from Playstation!). He is no longer Mickey the idiot, he's Mickey the hero, and i very much approve of this.
Goodbye Mickey the hero, i'll miss you. Though you'll always be Mickey the adorable idiot to me.
Is it totally pervy of me to think that Billie Piper should be dressed as a waitress all the time?
Seeing Rose and Pete walk in to the factory surrounded by Cybermen is horrible, i really thought Pete would die the first time i watched this. Then when they find out that Jackie's dead it's just sad-face-forever (even if she isn't quite the Jackie we know and love).
The thought of all those people still in the conversion rooms (pods?) when the Bluetooth mind control transmission is turned off is horrifying.
This episode has one of my favourite ten moments. When the Doctor confronts Lumic and shouts "You're a Cyber-controller you don't controll me or anything with blood in its heart!", there's so much anger and resentment in his voice, and disgust and repulsion on his face for what Lumic is doing. Then in a split second he's back to being his cheeky chappy self, David is amazing in that bit.
Pete Tyler is a bumface at the end of this episode. She's not his daughter, but she is, but she isn't………. arrrr confusion, but he's still a bumface for making Rose sad.
"What about me, what if i need you?"
You never know how much you need someone until you lose them, or something happens that changes your relationship completely. That's happened to me recently and it just fills me with an aching sadness.
I don't think Pete was a bumface, he had just lost his wife and now the waitress tells him that she's from another world where she is his daughter and Jackie is still alive? I'd run like hell too.
Rose should have explained the situation with far more tact and keeping in mind that not everyone wants a 19 year old fake!daughter that comes with a replacement fake!wife.
Sorry for your loss, *hugs* What happened to Rose happens everyday.
These episodes belong to Mickey forever. The Doctor and Rose are there to show how Mickey's outgrown his old life and looking for a new one to belong to – even if that means leaving Rose behind. I appreciate Rose getting called out for treating Mickey as the Emergency Backup Boyfriend, and yet still having the right to be sad over him leaving for good. Trapped in a parallel dimension is as good as dead in some ways, especially when they're going on a super-dangerous mission.
My thoughts on why Mickey could stay but Rose couldn't: Mickey existed in this world. As Ricky, yes, and somewhat different from the Mickey we know and love, but he was here. There's a place for him. Rose was a dog. Our Rose could never step in and fill that role.
Random observations: the two Crouches never came face to face. By the time Barty Jr got to the command center, Barty Sr had already been upgraded to his new form. Continuity error: In "Rose", when Rose is freaking out she says she'll have to tell his mother about Mickey's death. Here we learn that he was raised by his gran, who is ALSO dead in our world at this point.
Thanks, now I'm picturing Rose with a pink bow on her head yapping for attention.
Wait.
I may be wrong, but it was my impression that Mickey’s mom wasn’t dead, she just wasn’t able to raise him.
That's correct and that line was written to specifically address the "I'm going to have to tell him mum" line in "Rose".
So by the time that "Rose" happens, Mickey's gran is dead and his mum would be the person that Rose would have to tell if he was dead.
It was a last minute rewrite to cover a mistake, though.
From this transcript: http://who-transcripts.atspace.com/2006/transcrip…
ROSE
Mickey's mum just couldn't cope. His dad hung around for a while, but then he just sort of wandered off. He was brought up by his gran.
(she smiles)
She was such a great woman. God, she used to slap him!
(serious again)
And then she died. She tripped and fell down the stairs. It's about five years ago, now. I was still in school.
Mrs. Moore and Mickey both bring the epic awesome all the way in this story…which makes it all the more depressing that she dies and he gets left behind and those of us watching the show are stuck with Rose, who's becoming more selfish and annoying every week. *le sigh*
Between Mrs. Moore and Sarah Jane, that's two ladies over forty that Tennant had absolutely tremendous chemistry with, one of the happier patterns of his tenure as the Doctor.
Basically, because by this point in the season I had given up on liking Ten and Rose, each episode is made or broken by the supporting cast. Since we got Mrs. Moore and Mickey being awesome and Jake and Pete being pretty cool themselves, I'm halfway fond of the Cybermen storyline in spite of its complete nonsensicality and the fact that the Cybermen themselves aren't all that scary.
I hadn't totally given up on liking them but it was getting more and more difficult. :-\
Just wow the resolution to the cybermen is super horrible. And why I appreciated Nine's "just this once, everybody lives!" so much.
This one is all about character.
Mickey comes of age, and has a new chance in a new World to get rid of Mickey the Idiot, become Mickey the Freedom Fighter and put things right with his Gran. (Minor character note – although Rickey was more badass than Mickey, "London's Most Wanted" turned out to be about parking tickets…).
Rose found herself facing a strange mirror of her parents. Alt Pete was a success on this World, compared with doomed to failure on hers, but he was still brave (working from the inside to defeat Lumic, not realising that his contacts were the rather useless gang of parking ticket dodgers). under pressure, he was as brave and decent as Original Pete,, but understandably freaked out to have somebody claiming to be a daughter. Fair enough, it must be odd enough if somebody turns up on the doorstep claiming to be from a long-gone relationship, Having somebody turn up claiming to be a daughter by his wife (who had just been horribly destroyed) in an alternate Universe, but who had never been born in this one would be bad for anybody. Come on, we'd all run a mile wouldn't we? "Hey I'm the daughter from an alternate reality who you never had! Hug tiem nao?"
Alt-Jackie was interesting too. We know the Jackie who'd obviously struggled all of her adult life, bringing up a daughter on her own, a daughter who she clearly loves and worries about (and how, given what she is now doing!). Jackie who'd been handed it all on a plate and never had that daughter, never lost her husband and from her early 20s never had to worry about where the money came from turned out to be a more shallow person and highly aware of her position in society. Her horrible death though made it clear that nobody is safe.
Mind you, if people think that this story has a high body count some of the classic series adventures have the highest recorded on-screen death rates ever seen, easily outstripping such soft and fluffy films like The Terminator! (I understand that the final body count from Genesis of the Daleks requires meticulous counting frame by frame to get all of the on-screen deaths logged properly) and Peter Davison cheerfully mentioned on one DVD commentary for one story that it had a higher death rate in a single episode than Terminator in the entire movie.
While the Daleks were an allegory of Nazism (thinking they are perfect and killing everyone else) the Cybermen represent Communism (domination by 'converting' everyone else to think / act / speak in their way) In some ways, turning into a Cyber could be more horrific (in that you yourself would end up hunting down others for processing)
Do you have a favourite villain yet Mark?
I find Cybermen more scary because we did it ourselves. In this version, we willingly used the earpods and some of us, humans, designed the whole project.
That's not to say that we don't have it in us to be like Daleks, as you say the are space Nazis, but Daleks in this series will always be that alien enemy, not ourselves.
Actually, the original concept of the Cybermen from Kit Peddler was more to do with concerns about medical advances, particularly transplant surgery, and the question of how much of yourself can you replace before you cease to be *you*.
Yes and Russell T Davies decided to that that concern had faded somewhat and our obsession with technology and upgrading was a better analogy for now. That's part of the reason for doing a rebooted parallel version. Also the cyberman continuity in the original series is a complete mess.
I still think they didn't really nail it in this story, though. The emotional journey's work well but the world-building is bit too sketchy to be really effective.
You can read the communism thing into the Cybermen but it certainly wasn't an intentional allegory in the way the Daleks were. Personally, I think it's a bad fit because you have to have a very simplistic view of communism to think that it's about making everyone the same. In some ways, while crude, the Borg is a better fit – although I think they're better as a representation of the irrational fear of collectivism than an accurate allegory for the failings of communism.
Mickey is awesome. I never truly believed how awesome he really was until this episode. Sure, I liked him as a character, but I never thought he could kick so much ass, despite his clearly Hollywood hacking skillz.
This episode delivers lots of punches to the gut. Mrs. Moore's death was shocking, although I should have seen it coming. It was truly abrupt after such an emotional scene with the Cyberman's identity being reawakened. The deleted scene in which Jake reveals that he and Ricky were boyfriends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3MzNvT5q6E) makes his desperation and grief all the more brutal when Mickey comes back without Ricky. Highest death toll in the history of the show? Maybe not, but there were quite a lot of bodies by the conclusion.
Godspeed Mickey, we'll miss you!
Favourite line that nobody mentioned: the reveal that Rickey was wanted for parking tickets. "that's messing with the system, I park anywhere I want to, SCREW YOU BIG BROTHER YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO" (that was this episode right?)
Also much love for Mrs. Moore and like I said ages ago I love how this show has a variety of roles for female characters including older women.
Ricky: I was fighting the system, park anywhere, that's me.
Doctor: Good policy I do much the same.
Yay thank you!
I keep forgetting about that line, which is weird because it is pure awesome.
Yes! I love that line! XD
And agreed, it is always awesome to see older women getting roles.
And the line before it: I'm London's most wanted…for parking tickets! 🙂
Age of Steel rates a 5 for scariness. And how it deserves it. And how.
Mickey/Jake Forever. Just puttin that out there.
I find that Cybermen do not evoke the same level of excitement as daleks, but that might just be powered by notalgia, having watched a lot more Dalek episodes (from behind the sofa) when only four or five.
What Cybermen do have, I find, is a wonderful sense of body horror and threat of identity loss. WHere other villians often just want to klll you, the cyberman want to make you into one of them. ANd in the process you will be shorn of your emotions, which are a large part of what define us. So for me at least (and especially as a child), the Daleks evoked terror but the Cyberman begat horror
"I was Jaccqueline Tyler. I went first." Horrible.
As a trivia-related side note – there's a wonderful piece of continuity in this two parter, for all that these are parallel universe Cybermen. The big truck into which Mr Crane was luring 'volunteers' was labelled with the logo of International Electromatics, the company serving as a front for the Cybermen in the Second Doctor serial Invasion.
Good fact. Well done!
I found it heartbreaking when the Cyber!Jackie gets lost in the crowd and Pete can't find her anymore.
"The big truck into which Mr Crane was luring 'volunteers' was labelled with the logo of International Electromatics, the company serving as a front for the Cybermen in the Second Doctor serial Invasion."
But, as a couple of people on page 1 are arguing with me, Davies ***never*** puts details into the show, and everything that seems thought-out is actually just serendipity. So clearly this must be dumb coincidence =P
((bangs head against wall))
Then she's honestly a character I hate watching.
Rose wasn't written as an antihero whose bad qualities are part and parcel of her moral ambiguity as a protagonist. She's a straight-out heroine, held up as special and amazing and exceptional and the Doctor's girlfriend, etc., and her actions don't measure up to the hype. It's worse than simple selfishness; it's a complete inability to learn or change or develop in the long term. Sure, there are real people like that. But I'm not expected to watch those people's stories every week and hope for their success as protagonists.
No one is denying that Rose has bad qualities, and you don't have to like her, but I'm having a hard time buying this idea that she doesn't change or develop over her tenure as a companion.
I think she can be both flawed AND special (to the Doctor). I wouldn't say she's been held up as special in general because we've seen how 'ordinary' she is, and that's been reinforced many times. I think there's a greater story at work here, which is that travelling with the Doctor inspires people to reach beyond their usual lives and ideas, and that sometimes their reach exceeds them. I.e. they fail or stuff up or get hurt. Because it's the Doctor who is written to be exceptional here. Everyone else has their moments but that's all.
Tardisode info time:
A video from John Lumic orders the "upgrade" of humans to Cybermen to commence around the world. This is followed by an animated diagram of a "Skin to Metal Upgrade" and a Cyberman being instructed by Lumic to "delete" all incompatible humans…
No, I don't know why they bothered, either.
"Ok, I am certainly at a point now where I can just let go of trying to enjoy these episodes AND appreciating air-tight plots at the same time."
When you have reached this point, I think you have truly understood Doctor Who. The only step left is giving you the ability of fan wank your way out of plot holes and continuity errors. (Mostly the latter. Continuity is more of a suggestion in DW than anything else…)
Or you choose to say "Screw the plotholes, this shit is fantastic" and just go with it. That's what I do!
Also, you can just kind of choose your own canon. It's fun.
Ah, but after a while you can always handwave away a plothole in DW. 'That hole is SUPPOSED to be there! It's a plot TUNNEL!'
I am definitely going to go with "plot tunnel" now. You are awesome. 😀
I feel like I should point out that Russell T. Davies rewrote a lot of episodes from other writers, some more, some less. Steven Moffat is one author whose words he claims to never have touched, but I suppose Tom McRae is not in the same category. So how much of your high fives really should go to him is difficult to say.
I recommend you to read "The Writer's Tale – The Final Chapter" by RTD & Benjamin Cook once you have caught up. Right now, don't even look at its cover. 😉
Oh, thanks for pointing this out! Many high fives to Davies too.
Things that I like in this episode: the sheer amount of bad stuff that happens because of the Cybermen; the scene between the Doctor and Mrs Moore in the tunnel, which is brilliant; Pete shocking Rose by walking away from her; Mickey's face as Ricky is killed and the way you can see him making the decision to stay; Mickey in general. There's only one thing I don't like: Rose, I understand you are upset that Mickey is staying and that you will never see him again. But you do NOT then ruin it by blubbing "What about ME?" It makes me want to imitate Helen Parr: "This is NOT – ABOUT – YOU!"
WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO?
On the other hand, Mickey’s character receives perhaps the best story arc out of anyone on Doctor Who yet.
Yeah, I didn't want to say anything early on, but Mickey becomes pretty great here, when you wouldn't have expected that at all in season one.
“I once saved the universe with a big yellow truck.” Oh, Mickey, I’m going to miss you.
:-{
I'd really like to know what happened to the Cybermen's one weakness. Why did they just ignore that completely? I know they don't necessarily need to be referencing old series every time, but the Cybermen were one of the biggest villains from there, making them alternate universey without that one weakness really disappointed me :(.
If you're talking about what I think you are: the Wikipedia page for this episode says that there's a Cybus Industries tie-in website that explains that Cybus was able to eliminate that "allergy" in the newer versions of the Cyberman.
It seems weird that they didn't include that bit of information in the episode itself.
Ah. Well that's a bit disappointing, considering it's how they're defeated EVERY SINGLE TIME in the old series. I suppose it was just a matter of time before they caught on, though. I mean, the Daleks eventually got over their fear of stairs 🙂
It doesn't get a mention in their first five outings. It's introduced in "Revenge of the Cybermen" in 1975. So it's only in four out of the nine stories, three of which are arguably the worst Cybermen stories in the history of the show.
Which three do you mean for those? I adore the Fourth & Fifth Doctor Cybermen episodes (Revenge of the Cybermen and Earthshock) – they're two of my favourites – are you counting those as dreadful? I wouldn't argue with the sixth Doctor ep is pretty darn terrible, but Colin Baker sets my teeth on edge, so I could just be allergic to his presence.
Revenge, Attack and Silver Nemesis.
Not that Revenge doesn't have it's redeeming features*, but I think the 60s stories are better, generally. It does give us the idea of the glitter gun, though, which never fails to amuse.
It makes me shout at the screen when the Vogans seem to have no idea how to fight the Cybermen, having apparently forgotten what their planet is made from. It's thoroughly silly, and not generally in a good way.
*particularly that line, which the Doctor shouts at Harry.
Blast it – I remember some corkers that the fourth Doctor says to Harry but not that one. Damn not having a VCR any more! I need these on DVD. Stupid Netflix doesn't let me watch stuff because I'm un-American :(.
Harry has got to be one of my favourite companions actually. Such a lovely, lovely man 🙂
Lovefilm is the UK equivalent of Netflix, if you're in the UK.
All of season 12 is now on DVD so you can get your Harry fix. "Revenge of the Cybermen" was released in a box set with "Silver Nemesis" in the UK, though, unfortunately. Although "Silver Nemesis" is quite fun to boggle at (and it does have its fans, I think).
We're still waiting for "Terror of the Zygons" and "The Android Invasion".
And I'm not going to tell you what that line is, because if you've forgotten it, you should experience it again, in all its glory, in the episode.
>So it's only in four out of the nine stories
Four out of ten if you include the Five Doctors.
Which I wasn't, but they do feature quite a lot. Also, I don't think it even gets a mention in "Attack of the Cybermen" – it's definitely not used as a plot point there.
So it's down to three out of ten – or out of eleven if you count "Carnival of Monsters".
Gold isn't even a 'weakness' as sorts. Only one story ahs that, and in that story they got it wrong. It feature sin three stories. In "Revenege of the Cybermen" it's established that gold dust can clog their brething units and suffocate them. The Doctor throws soem at Cybermen and all it does is *stuns* them, they're killed by bombs. it gets mentioned in "Earthshock", again where a gold badge is grinded into a CyberLeaders chest… and again all it does is choke him, he's then shot about a dozen times. Only then does "Silver Nemesis" get it veyr wrong and has them die the moment they so much as look at it. But that's all. Hell, if they copied Silver Nemesis, there wouldn''t be a story.. the Cybermen would probably drop dead as soona s they ehard Murray Gold's score!
SORRY CLASSIC SERIES SPOIELRS ABOVE, forgot to typoe a warnign before…
And we'd put so much effort into tip-toeing around the subject as well!
Honestly, the gold weakness isn't much of a spoiler, the audience is told up front about it in all the episodes it features in.
You're right that it doesn't feature in "Attack of the Cybermen" either, in that they kill Cybermen in even sillier ways.
I really don't like the later Cyberman appearances, Earthshock excepted.
That was a fan site, not a BBC one. The BBC site is here:
http://www.cybusindustries.net/index.html
Like I say below, though, that weakness doesn't appear in any of the first five stories (ie all the 1960s ones). It's a pretty late addition.
It's only a weakness from 1975 onwards. Before that they have different weaknesses.
I always though it was a pretty silly weakness anyway and it certainly completely undermines their final appearance in the original series.
Who is a bit mad and scrappy, like the Doctor. It's how I rationalise away the plot holes 🙂
Mickey is always my favourite.
Ha, I think that's a really good description!
I love and fear the Cybermen. They've always been my favourite Who villains, and I love the redesign for the new series. Their reintroduction combined with the awesomsplosion that is Mickey discovering his potential makes this probably the best two-parter in the entire show so far.
"I hate hackers in movies/TV. I HATE THEM. I’m sorry, how the fuck would Mickey know how to hack that zeppelin. Every time they zoomed in on his fingers slamming on that keyboard, I laughed. It just makes no sense."
Lol, same here. I think it's more amusing than irritating though, and I have met some very skilled hackers myself, but they're not that amazing. xD
Also, Mickey leaving. BOOOOOOOOOO! 🙁
Right? I know LITERAL hackers myself and they neither look, nor act, nor conduct themselves in any manner I have ever seen displayed in entertainment.
This isn't the worst example of comuter usage in the show. I won't name the episode for spoilery reasons, but a certain character, obviously played by an actor who does use computers irl, constantly presses the up arrow cursor key instead of ENTER.
Yeah, compatibility does not a universal port make. Would it have been so hard to have the Doctor do some jiggery pokery while he talked? Send the code in through the mobile network, as there was obviously a previously established connection? That whole scene was a lot less awesome than I remembered it being.Also, idk why, but the Cybercontroller coming out in his big wobbly wire chair (throne? Loveseat?) has always bugged me. Like, would we not recognize it as Lumic if he wasn't sitting down?
I hop back and forth over the divisive Rose line, but I like her in these episodes. I don't think she overreacted or was horribly selfish in Mickey's parting. Despite the mentions of her mate Cherene, it seems to me like Rose has a relatively small circle of support at home, and Mickey has been pretty key in that for a while. She certainly isn't being unselfish in asking Mickey to think of her, but it isn't as if she begrudges him for going. She knows he's making the best decision for himself, she's just sad for the loss of him, and I certainly don't begrudge her for that. I also thought it was wonderfully done to have Alternate Pete be unable to deal with what Rose tells him. It was hard enough for her with a version of her Dad who had a daughter, but to be greeted by a daughter you knew for a fact you never had- especially right after the death of the woman who would've given you such a child- that's not something anyone can process quickly, mentally or emotionally.
It's sad to see Mickey shine just before he goes, but he did have a great character arc, and at least we did get to see him shine before he left -someone else mentioned, and I thought so too- in his own blue box! On wheels, sure, but let's not dwell on the differences. 😉
It would also have been fine if it had been a phone from that universe – if he'd got hold of and used Pete Tyler's phone for instance – because then we could at lsat assume that as Cybus owns almost all parallel-Britain* companies, it mandates universal ports in all their products. Ah well…
* I so nearly typed "UK" then, but it can't be the UK, because of what the K stands for. Actually that brings to mind a tiny little thing that makes no real difference but I think would have been a nice parallel world touch if they'd done it… I wish</> they'd amended the badges on the policemen's helmets in Rise of the Cybermen (in the everyone-stops-for-an-upload scene) so that they didn't have crowns above the Brunswick star. It's only a small thing but AU!Britain is a republic, after all.
Well, I really garbled that, didn't I? I can actually type beter than this, honest, but my fingers are currently cold and numb.
And this is why I will never buy a bluetooth.
I thought for sure that both Jake and Mickey were going to die. The Doctor had that look on his face that he tends to get when he knows he's sending someone on a suicide mission.
I gotta say I loved that ending. I wonder if he's going to tell his gram he's not the real Ricky?
When I watched the first episode and said I didn't like Mickey, I was so confused at all the people saying "aww I love Mickey!" I thought he was just going to be a throwaway character and we would never see him after that. How wrong I was.
You know, when all the drama and danger was happening with alt!Jackie and Pete, I didn't really care because it didn't seem like they were even real people just because they're in a parallel universe (of course they're not real, but you know what I mean, right?). But when Jackie dies, I really got that it doesn't matter that they're not our Jackie and Pete. Regardless, a man just lost his wife, and it doesn't matter that she's alive in some other universe.
GoF rip complete. Gif crated. YAY.
<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/2dw5mi9.gif">
Is that in the book? I just don't remember that, but I think I need an HP reread anyway. Does it really say "And Barty Crouch Jr. flicked his tongue constantly, like a snake, to the chagrin of all the ladies."
Barty is portrayed much more… pathetic? in the pensieve memories. Lots of simpering and cries of 'it wasn't me'.
Tennant doesn't even fit the physical description for him but I'm SO GLAD they went for him when they decided to make Barty such a maniac in the pensieve memories. That man does crazed like no other.
Tennant IS somewhat mad. I mean, look at him. He's a CRAZYPERSON. 😉
Yea, I thought so. I remember the first time I saw Barty Jr. in the theater wondering why he seemed so out of place. I think I remember now, that he was pathetic and that I wasn't ever sure if he was guilty or not, at the beginning.
Sad times. 🙁 But it could have been worse. I was convinced that there would be a reveal at the end that it was actually MICKEY who died, and RICKY was pretending to be him because he did not trust Mickey or the Doctor and wanted to get on the inside. Thankfully, this was not the case. Even though this was about the best end for Mickey's character we could have hoped for, I really hope we get to see him again. I guess with time travel, anything's possible. But, Mickey…arrivederci, dear.
Also, (sorry if this has been mentioned) did anyone else think the Cyberman (Cyberwoman?) at the end hanging onto the ladder was Jackie? I thought it was going to yell something as it fell to let us know it was her, making the episode that much more epically tragic. I guess it's good that wasn't the case. I already cried enough at Rose's reunion with her mom at the end. This episode did not need more sad.
The Cyberman at the end is Lumic/The Cyber Controller.
Ah, thanks! I missed that.
I FOUND THE MISSING SCENE FROM THIS EPISODE MARK YOU HAVE TO WATCH IT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3MzNvT5q6E
Sigh. Going through the comments, as usual…. I didn't participate in fandom much when the episodes were first airing (because I had to wait for Australian broadcast, mainly) and only ever discussed the episodes with my IRL friends and family, who were generally on the same page as me. So I guess I never realised, really, about what a divisive character Rose was. It's making me a bit sad to see all the arguments ('discussions'). Hurrah for being exposed to other opinions but the same things seem to be coming up over and over again.
Le sigh for Rose hate, but yay for Mickey finding his place 🙂
I tend to let it slide past me, the extremes of that argument both baffle me honestly. And there's no right way of looking at it.
If it's any consolation it does seem to be in few corners of fandom that this is a big deal. Most people are generally happy with all aspects of the show. Not that that's a reason for everyone to fall in line, but it can be reassuring in all the sound and fury.
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My feeling is that he presents the world as the kind of confusing place that we experience it as and does so quite deliberately.
There's an exposition and world building tradition in SF which, at its worst, ends up with characters tell each other, in great detail, things about the world that they'd either already know or take for granted, for the benefit of the audience or reader. RTDs style is about as far away from that as you can get.
Still, the pressure of writing to deadlines and, usually, creating a whole new situation from scratch with every story means that writers don't always have the time to bring things together as well as they might. On balance, I don't think this matters in Doctor Who, because the stuff that's great is so great. I do think in this story, for example, they could have done more with both the cybermen and the parallel world, to make it a fuller experience. And few reworkings around the resolution wouldn't have gone amiss. But, when you have to starting shooting, you have to start shooting. And I love the gung ho action movieness of it all*
When you write as many stories as RTD did, though, it does end up giving plenty of ammunition to nitpickers – I just think that's a bad way to approach a how about a man who travels in time in a box that's bigger on the inside. People are doing it to Moffat now, though, which did surprise, since he seemed to escape it before he took over.
*Moffat on Outpost Gallifrey facing down people who were disappointed by this story:
"[On 'Rise of the Cybermen']If that episode had shown up in the 80s (or the 70s, or the 60s) we'd all have fainted of joy on the spot! Whump! All of us! Every fan in the country – gurgle, whump, living room floor. Medical experts would've been flown in from all around the world! "My God," they'd have cried, "every geek in Britain is unconscious!! Quick, let's pull their pants over their heads and draw moustaches on them!"
The Elder Statesmen of Fandom, in their vast and mighty Council Chamber (in Mum's bedroom), would actually have EXPLODED!! Into CLOUDS OF VAPOUR!!! Every breath taken in the whole wide world wide would have contained a measurable quantity of IAN LEVINE!!
And here you are, you lot, and you don't even know you're born. Some of us had to go to school the Monday after the Giant Rat!! No, REALLY! Think about that! Added ten years to my virginity, that did, Giant Rat Monday! Oh, I haven't forgotten! "
From this brilliant thread on Gallifrey Base (it's worth joining just for this), In fact I'm going to add a few more non-spoilery Moffat quotes from it (the thread itself is spoilery, of course).
Moar Moffat:
"I can't imagine anyone doing a better job than Russell on this show, he's been extraordinary. He's changed television. Suddenly everything is fun and mad! A lot of British drama is worthy and important and feels like a light scolding from an opinionated drunk in the rain. With Russell's stuff, even when it's edgy and bristling with difficult ideas, you feel invited in, you feel engaged. People want to say he's raised the bar, but that's a very un-Russell idea – far too stern and macho and dull. It's more like he's fitted a sun roof. Yeah, that's it, he's taken British drama and fitted a sun roof. I think he'd like that. "
"Oh, you chaps will take any excuse to jump on the mighty Welshman's head, won't you? Well not on my watch!
…You know, there may be many things you could say about Russell and the Doctor Who production team (of whom I'm not one, so this is neither conceit nor defensiveness) but to call them careless or sloppy is so completely unfair and untrue I can't stop myself wasting my time telling you that."
"Russell doesn't hover around throwing in gay bits. Russell hovers around asking for more explosions and death. How little you understand the man!"
"Every opinion I've expressed about Russell is one I honestly hold – and since they're hardly untypical opinions, from an industry which regularly celebrates his talents, and since I have no financial or professional need to say other than I feel, why do you need to go any lengths to account for them?"
You (and Moffat) are preaching to the choir as far as I'm concerned. Another thing wotth pointing out, I think, is the scale of ambition of the show, and I don't just mean Russell's era. RTD and now Moffat are just continuing a tradition that stretches back to the very beginning. Even *before* the beginning when Sydney Newman first proposed his idea for a show that could go anywhere in time and space, and then Verity Lambert fighting to get it made against all the odds. In the almost 50 years since, there have been times when the ambition of the show has outstripped what it can achieve. But better that than a show that constantly plays it safe and only produces what the production team know they can comfortably achieve.
(Cut for length again…)
(Continued…)
Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel is trying to do so much: Introduce the cybermen to a new audience, set up a parellel earth, Mickey's character arc, and contribute to the overall series arc in ways I can't specify here. And it's also trying to hide its complexity under the guise of a simple, fun family adventure story.
In some people's opinion, it doesn't quite stand up to the rest (although it's interesting that Mark says AoS is his favourite part 2 yet. But in context of its ambition and the amazingly high standard of the rest of 21st Century Who, it's by no means a failure.
Well yes, and I can put my fantasy showrunner hat on and think of loads of things I'd do to improve it, having seen the final version and all the rest of the series and had four and half years to think about it.
But that's not a luxury that anyone working on the show has. They start with a blank piece of paper, which is the most terrifying thing in the world.
And I know, from things RTD says that they never stop thinking of how they might have done it better, but those are thoughts they can only take into their next project.
In one of the deleted scenes, Jake reveals that Ricky was his boyfriend and that’s why he was so angry at Mickey. :’)
Ok. So. There is an alternate version of the scene where Mickey explains himself to Jake. And they cut out two lines from it. It made me mad that they cut it. *sigh*
Here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3MzNvT5q6E
I recommend watching Doctor Who like reading Dickens: if you are in it for the plot, you are doing it wrong. They are both a type of story telling which is character above all.
You know, for a long time people have told me that I should watch Dr. Who. I never really listened to them. However, your reviews made me want to watch it and I am now obsessed. Thank you 🙂
I have a theory about this episode and why Pete responds the way he does when he finds out Rose is his alt!daughter.
So. You are Pete Tyler. A pretty young girl (who actually kind of resembles your wife in her younger, hotter, and less angry days but eh, you have a type and your type is bottle blondes) suddenly attaches herself to you and seems really concerned about you and you end up saving the world with her. And having gone through all that, isn't it naturally to hope that you'll get to boink her?
And then you find out she's your alt!daughter.
Yeah.
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I don't really get why deactivating the inhibition chip would destroy all the cybermen. I mean, yeah, the vast majority of people would probably go insane upon finding out what they had become, but I'm sure there'd be some stronger minds who could come to grips with the fact that they've been changed into a walking suit of armor and be like "it's okay, I'll deal."
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I know I'm a huge minority here but I never liked Mickey. Everything he said was so annoying and dumb. His whining was endless. Maybe they all felt he was useless because he acted like a SPINELESS, SNIVELING boyfriend who always came running when he heard the TARDIS even though Rose kept leaving him without regret. DUDE, that is the sign to MOVE ON. You are the doormat that keeps asking for more. If you are being treated that poorly it's because you are allowing yourself to be treated that way. I was endlessly relieved that he stayed behind in a parallel universe. The only times I could tolerate him was when he was in scenes with Jackie. Oddly enough, that might have been a better pairing than Rose. At least Jackie might have needed him.
No one is going to see this and respond to me BUT I didn't catch the ricky/mickey explanation….