In the thirteenth episode of the second season of Buffy The Vampire Slayer, all joy is destroyed forever. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to watch Buffy.
I liked this episode so much, and that’s why it pains me how upsetting it is. AND THIS IS ONLY HALF OF THE STORY. Goddamn it! But in one episode, the writers manage to grow nearly every character in fascinating ways, introduce a hell of a plot, and then DESTROY ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING. oh god OH GOD.
I wanted to talk about one particular point that I’m actually not entirely sure on, and it’s something I think will either pan out in the second part, or I’ll be able to get a better perspective on it from all of you. The reveal that Jenny is actually Janna, of the Clan Kalderash, is so brilliant that my heart hurts in a million different places. It’s surprising and evil, a way to make her character conflicted and interesting, and I am totally on board with seeing how it will turn out.
But – and you knew this was coming – I am a bit hesitant about the use of the Romani culture on American television. There’s a lot of context that makes me feel this might be okay. First of all, Jenny has been portrayed in a positive light so far, and she’s not set up to be the villain purely because of her culture. Even when she’s forced into the role of antagonist by her uncle, it’s still shown to be a major source of conflict for her character. Still, her uncle isn’t that layered of a character, coming off as some overzealous sadist who wants someone else to suffer regardless of their moral standing.
It’s interesting to me that the show does go out of its way to draw the line between Drusilla, Jenny, and the culture they came from, stating very explicitly that Angel deserves the pain he gets because of what he did to their family and Clan. There is something here that could be used wonderfully if the culture is treated respectfully, but it’s one of the only things that’s regularly given a very superficial treatment by the writers of this show. (And let me just remind you all that the Romani culture considers “gypsy” an ethnic slur, so please avoid using it in a pejorative sense, okay? Obviously if you need to discuss the use of that word, that’s totally an acceptable context, but I think a lot of people genuinely have no clue that word is an incredibly oppressive slur. If you’re at all interested in reading more about the issue (and you should be!), I rather love Golden Zephyr on Tumblr, and you should check out their archive for a whole lot of educational goodness about being Romani.)
This issue, though, is paralleled well with every other character in this episode. The writers draw characters together in “Surprise,” which makes me nervous. You know this is only done so that they can tear them apart and Whedon can add another month to his lifespan, right? But in this episode, we finally see Willow and Oz together in a significant capacity. We see Xander attempt to convince Cordelia that perhaps they shouldn’t be so secretive about their feelings for one another, and then I suddenly find myself liking him a whole lot? And it’s not that I dislike Cordelia, because I am so endlessly fascinated by the constant complication of her character! But in this situation, I can see that she’s so desperate to keep up her reputation that she’ll hurt a guy she actually likes. Let’s not kid ourselves, either. I genuinely think both of them are more obsessed with being tough and emotionless than they’re willing to admit, and that deep down, the two appreciate each other a whole lot.
We also see that SPIKE HAS SURVIVED OH MY GOD YES. I seriously like his character, but now his role has been reversed in a way with Drusilla. It took me until “Surprise” to really feel out their relationship and Drusilla’s characterization. It’s a clever thing to make her birthday so close to Buffy’s, especially since we get to see Buffy’s birthday ruined as Drusilla’s progressively gets better. Part of that comes from Spike’s gift to her: The Judge. (Sorry, I need to do this: OH MY GOD IT’S BRIAN THOMPSON OH MY GOD IT’S THE ALIEN BOUNTY HUNTER FROM THE X-FILES OH MY GOD.) What’s so awesome about the introduction of The Judge is how the mere pieces of him provide such an important plot point for multiple characters without him ever actually being on screen. His arm is what causes Buffy to have to fight off vampires outside her own birthday party; it’s what causes the group to induct yet another person to their secret club (FUCK YES, PLEASE LET THIS MEAN THAT OZ IS AROUND MORE); and it forces Angel to (try to) leave Sunnydale to hide the arm far away from town. Jenny recognizes how perfect of an opportunity this is to separate Buffy and Angel, satisfying the request from her uncle. Bless Robia LaMorte, who plays this scene so believably. You can see the conflict on her face. She’s over-excited about the prospect, yet entirely nervous about what she’s doing to a man who saved her life. In that sense, she represents this fascinating division: Does she respect and honor the culture she came from, or does she judge a man for his deeds in the present?
However, I am ignoring the power and the heart at the very center of “Surprise”: Buffy and Angel. I can’t deny it anymore. The two have this brilliant, furious chemistry that is absolutely necessary to make this episode work. I know I had my doubts earlier, but I’m ready to discard them now: these two love each other. Watching Angel bid goodbye to Buffy on that shipping dock (WHICH IS NOT EVEN THE MOST AGONIZING SCENE IN THE EPISODE) is just too much for me to handle. Ugh, I am getting emotional just thinking about it. (Though, at the time I’m writing this, it’s 11:55am on the Sunday before this was posted, and I am also thinking about the season finale of Sherlock, and I think this is all just too much to handle.)
Can we all just agree that Buffy and Angel going to the factory where Drusilla’s party is at is just a bad idea? I was actually confused as to why Giles thought it was a good plan. It’s kind of not. Also, can we agree that Drusilla’s party looks like a goth club night? If I walked in on that, I wouldn’t think it was a gathering of vampires at all.
There are a few things during this scene that are wickedly clever, the first being the choice to have The Judge assemble before Angel and Buffy even arrive. There is absolutely no hope that they can stop this happening, and now there’s a demon who can bring about the Apocalypse roaming Sunnydale. Oh, and he’s invincible. Also, he sort of looks like a Smurf on steroids. SORRY TO PUT THAT IN YOUR HEAD.
I adored the choice to have The Judge spot Buffy and Angel spying on them, prompting one vicious confrontation between all of these characters. I am truly glad that Spike and Drusilla are antagonists because they’re the kind of villains who both love a good, cheesy monologue, and they don’t care about following what’s expected of them. They’re almost self-aware that they’re the bad guys, and they don’t care. They’re going to do what they want, and they’re going to pursue whatever it is that makes them feel good. Of course, they’re also a good parallel as a couple to Angel and Buffy. It’s like Spike and Drusilla are more of an intellectual couple. They’re overtly more sexual, and there are subtexts of control (for both parties) that they exchange with one another. I don’t just mean that they switched the role of caretaker, since Spike is now in a wheelchair and Drusilla has been healed. Their relationship seems to address the idea of power, and I’m fascinated how neither one seems to have more power than another.
It’s not that I think either Angel or Buffy controls the other. The post-escape scene in Angel’s apartment is just an interesting contrast to what we’ve seen of the other vampire couple. The two are much more emotional, eager to touch and assure the other of how much they love one another. There’s an inherent pain to their relationship, as if two lonely souls are finally finding a solace they thought didn’t exist. I’m not sure if this episode confirms that Angel and Buffy finally had sex, but I think it’s easy to read that when Angel wakes in the middle of the night and is barely clothed. I imagine there probably was some fandom drama regarding this, but I’m also curious if there was a larger criticism for showing a possibly sexual Buffy on television. Did this happen? I wasn’t paying attention to this show when it was on, so I have no idea if parents everywhere decried the loss of innocence on their television sets.
I can’t say I understand what the hell happens at the end of this episode. Clearly, Angel is in a whole lot of pain, and I’m sure it has something to do with Jenny’s task from her uncle. But the goddamn episode cuts to a “To be continued…” card as Angel is crying out Buffy’s name and I AM SO CONFUSED. Look, Angel’s a pretty tough vampire, so whatever is going on must be horrific for him to deal with.
GODDAMN IT I NEED TO KNOW.
Torn between shipper basking and the urge to tweak Angel in the nose for dismissing Buffy, I note the love theme.
Willow forgets that taking that advice almost got her killed, although that doesn't mean it isn't good advice.
Automatic reaction to Willow/Oz 😀
Bad Romani stereotypes. Bad.
See, Giles takes her seriously!
You let the bad guys win if you don't have a birthday party.
He can't just drop it in the sea on the way to Asia?
And this assumes that Buffy can't swim. Can she? Though it seems maybe Angel can't take them alone.
Cordelia isn't in the library. I wonder if she took all the cake.
These prophecy dreams came to late, didn't they? Or perhaps they have more to do with what happens to Angel at the end of this episode.
Yeah, eyeroll at Angel's comment. But he means well, so it's endearing.
That is a nice apartment.
I keep trying to hum along with their love theme. This is distracting.
He gets dressed FAST!
I love their love theme! It's so fairy-tale-esque
I don't think I paid much attention to it before, but I pay a little more attention to music now, and spotted a video with it on YouTube. Then I saw this spoilery article about how vg ybfrf n srj abgrf va frnfba guerr, znxvat vg n "ybff gurzr."
Yeah, even though I don't care for them much as a ship, I do like their love theme. Espcially because as you said, it's fairy-tale-esque which I think really works for who they are as a couple.
Christophe Beck's work on "Buffy" is something special. Pretty much every piece of great music on the show was written or co-written by him.
He can't just drop it in the sea on the way to Asia?
But then we'd have to worry about a tentacled Judge appearing in Sunnydale.
This reminds me of a similar discussion over on Mark Reads recently.
Great, now all I can think is "…one arm to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them." Where by "them" I mean all the Judge's body parts.
I had the same thought when Angel jumped into the water after Buffy. Like, why? She's super fast and super strong and a super good fighter but you don't think she can swim? whaaaaat
As a lifeguard, if I were Angel in that position, I would have certainly jumped into the water. Buffy didn't dive in, she was pushed in, and it looked like a long drop. Depending on how she landed, she could have had a concussion or broken something, both of which would have harmed her ability to swim. I don't know if Angel was thinking all this, though. He probably just thought it was romantic or something.
Thank you. I don't tend to know these kinds of real life details.
Angel's reason for jumping is concern – this episode is priming up their feelings for each other, to make some bittersweet dish for the audience. I just thought that outside of that, it felt weird to assume that Buffy couldn't swim and it wouldn't be better to keep the arm away from Drusilla.
Nah. Turns out Angel's hair gel was wearing off, and he figured that diving into ice cold water would serve as a stopgap Hair Spiker until he could get home and really do it right.
Gung anapl-obl unve-try ur yvxrf fb zhpu.
Ur'f nyfb ohvyqvat hc n jubyr ybnq bs frkhny grafvba…
Fcvxr'f pbzzragnevrf ner nyjnlf fcbg-ba.
Dhvpxyl! Gb gur Natry-zbovyr, njnl!
"Lbh unir zbhffr? Bs pbhefr lbh qb."
About the Buffy falling into the water – I was all "?" too when he jumped in after her, but then they cut to her (or her double) for a second and she was floating face-down. I assumed she got knocked out for a second from the hit and fall, and that's why he threw himself over for her right away.
ARGH. I AM NOT OK. I AM NOT OK WITH THIS.
So I was in a hurry when I watched this episode so I totally didn’t notice it was a two parter. How could you do this to me??? We have three main things to talk about today…
– Oz. I love love LOVE how he gets introduced to the concept of vampires! Buffy slays one right in front of him and I was so caught up in the scene that I totally forgot he wasn’t clued in. But when Willow goes to tell him, he just says ‘actually, it explains a lot.’ RIGHT? I love Oz, he’s like the most laid back guy ever. His interactions with Willow are just so naturally adorable.
– Jenny Calendar. WHAT. She’s part of the people that cursed Angel? I did NOT see that coming! See, I have mixed feelings about this, because on the one hand, I really love it that her character gets more background and stuff. It’s a neat twist and…well I love Jenny, anything that gets her more screen-time is great by me! On the other hand, it scares me that this might bring her into conflict with the rest of the group. I mean, honestly, I’m kind of on the side of her uncle here? Angelus killed a bunch of people. That is not ok, and it kind of sucks that his terrible punishment is now actually turning into a bonus for him. Does he really have the right to be happy after what he did? At the end of the day, Jenny wasn’t even trying to kill him or anything, just send him away, to appease the Elders. Still, I don’t think the others will be best pleased when they inevitably find out and that makes me sad. Jesus, Whedon, can’t you go five minutes without ruining the life of my favourite character?
Actually, this raises two important questions (which you may NOT answer, by the way, unless I missed something in this episode):
1) Was Jenny just there by coincidence, or was she actually sent to Sunnydale to keep an eye on Angel?
2) At first I thought that they wanted to keep Angel away from Buffy just so he would be unhappy, but considering what happened at the end…now I’m wondering if the Elders actually knew shit would happen if he had sex with a human, and that’s the specific reason why they tried to stop it. Which leads us neatly to…
– That ending. So yeah, I don’t have a lot to say about the whole build up of Buffy/Angel except that I was getting a little bored of them just making out and whatnot. Whedon sure shot that feeling in the face, didn’t he? They actually have sex, which I thought was done quite well, but when Angel wakes up in the morning, it’s clear something is terribly wrong. And…I think I know what. It’s possible I’m wrong, and am going to totally embarrass myself here, but I just thought ‘What would Whedon do? What’s the worst thing that could possibly happen?’
The curse is broken.
There, I said it. I could be wrong, but frankly, it’s the only explanation I can think of. Somehow I just feel it. I don’t know why, or how, but the curse is broken and Angel’s soul has been ripped back from him. And now Angelus, the most vicious, bloodthirsty creature imaginable, whose face all our characters trust implicitly and who our main character is in love with, will walk the Earth again.
They are all completely fucked.
Don't read this! Seriously don't, especially the last sentence.
Avpr fubg. Naq V srry fbeel gung Wraal vf lbhe snibevgr punenpgre.
Don't worry, I never read the Rot13. 😛
Though I'm tempted to go back through the reviews and read it all after I'm done with the show…just to see how unprepared I was!
That would be a LOT of reading…also probably pretty mind-blowing, realizing what everyone was discussing under your very nose this entire time. XD
Wraal jnf nyfb zl snibevgr punenpgre ng guvf cbvag va gur frevrf jura V svefg jngpurq Ohssl (frira lrnef ntb). V gubhtug Natryhf jnf njrfbzr naq gura ur jrag naq oebxr Wraal'f arpx naq V UNGRQ UVZ FB ZHPU.
Your reactions are beautiful
I completely agree with all your Jenny thoughts. Seriously, I am kind of on the side of the Romani here. It would pretty much suck to punish someone who did unspeakable horrors to your people and then have him turn around and…use the punishment to his benefit? I don't know, the issue of Angel and guilt and what he should and shouldn't feel responsible for is a tricky one, but I do feel Jenny's uncle is pretty justified in what he's demanding, although I'm sure the Scoobies probably wouldn't feel that way.
Yay on more Jenny, though! \o/
V nterr, V whfg jvfu gurve fvqr jbhyq unir orra jevggra orggre. Naq vs V jrer tbvat gb phefr fbzrbar nf chavfuzrag, V cebonoyl jbhyqa’g znxr gung phefr gbgnyyl qrcraqrag ba gurz orvat zvfrenoyr sbe gur erfg bs rgreavgl.
Gung qrcraqf ba ubj zhpu pbageby gurl unq bire gur phefr. V nyjnlf snajnaxrq vg nf “Nal zntvp gung cbjreshy unf gb unir na rfpncr pynhfr bs fbzr fbeg.” Frrzf gb znxr frafr jvgu jung jr xabj bs Ohsslirefr zntvp fb sne.
Nsgre frira frnfbaf naq V'z fgvyy abg gbgnyyl fher ubj zntvp jbexf ba guvf fubj. I'll buy it.
Possible. It would make some sense, anyway.
Ohg vfa’g gur zvfrel vgfrys gur cbvag bs gur phefr? V zrna, vs V jrer tbvat gb qb n Zbevnegl ba Natry’f Fureybpx (fuvg rknzcyr, ohg orne jvgu zr) naq unq gur nqqrq zbgvir bs eriratr guebja va, V’q JNAG uvz gb fhssre, naq fhssre onqyl. Ng yrnfg ng gur gvzr bs pnfgvat gur phefr.
I agree 200%
Rot13 this and other comments in the thread – qb abg gnyx nobhg gur angher bs gur phefr lrg.
Bbcf, V pbhyq unir fjbea gung jnf znqr pyrne guvf rcvfbqr.
Va guvf rcvfbqr jr xabj gur phefr jnf gb znxr uvz fhssre, ohg abg gung uvf unccvarff pna oernx gur phefr. V svtherq gung'f jung lbhe pbzzrag vzcyvrf – gur "qrcraqrapr" ba uvf zvfrel.
(V ebg13'q fbzr bgure pbzzragf va guvf fhoguernq bs lbhef gung V pbhyq unir yrsg nybar, ohg V'q engure ebg13 gur jubyr pbairefngvba orpnhfr V guvax vg cynprf gbb zhpu rzcunfvf ba gur phefr znxvat Natry fhssre jura Znex unfa'g znqr n abgr bs vg.)
Znxrf frafr. Fbeel nobhg gung!
V nterr gung ur qrfreirq vg (rfcrpvnyyl nsgre xabjvat jung jr xabr nobhg Natryhf nsgre obgu "Ohssl" naq "Natry")naq V guvax gurl unq cebonoyl cynarq fbzrguvat zber chavfuvat nsgre gur phefr oebxr, frrvat nf yvsr jvgu n fbhy jnf ab ybatre uryy sbe uvz.
(N funzr gung gurl nyy qvrq orsber gurl unq n punapr gb trg perngvir.)
Gurer'f nyfb nabgure uhtr rguvpny ceboyrz ncneg sebz chavfuvat Natry sbe gur fvaf bs Natryhf: ol perngvat n fvghngvba jurer Natry pna ybfr uvf fbhy naq erireg onpx gb Natryhf, lbh'er nyfb nyybjat na rkgerzryl qnatrebhf znff zheqrere gb or hayrnfurq. Gur Ebznav jub phefrq uvz ner, nf sne nf V'z pbaprearq, cnegvnyyl erfcbafvoyr sbe nyy bs gur qrnguf ur pnhfrf sbe gur erznvaqre bs gur frnfba.
Guvf vf nyfb gur ceboyrz V unir jvgu gur Fpbbovrf abg xvyyvat Inzc!Jvyybj va Qbccyrtnatynaq. Gurl ner fraqvat ure onpx gb nabgure havirefr jurer fur pna naq jvyy, nf sne nf gurl xabj, xvyy ntnva.
Jbhyq lbh nccyl gur fnzr nethzrag gb gurve ernfbaf sbe abg fgnxvat puvccrq Fcvxr? Be F7 Fyrrcre Fcvxr? V pna flzcnguvfr jvgu gur Fpbbovrf' pubvpr abg gb xvyy fbzrbar fb yvxr Jvyybj. Gurl nyjnlf svaq vg uneq gb xvyy fbzrbar gurl "xabj", juvpu vf cebonoyl nf jryy. Guvax nobhg jung Tvyrf fnlf gb Ora ng gur raq bs Gur Tvsg.
Lrnu, ernyyl. Ba gbc bs gung, vg'f ab ybatre n chavfuzrag sbe uvz – gurl'er abj chavfuvat rirelbar ryfr nebhaq uvz. Znlor gur tbny jnf gb chavfu gur crefba jub tnir uvz gung zbzrag bs unccvarff vs vg unccrarq? Orpnhfr vs vg vf, gurl qb n qnza tbbq wbo. *uhtf Ohssl*
These are all good comments I just wish I could say more.
OMG OMG OMG I CANNOT EVEN SAY ANYTHING ABOUT PREPAREDNESS.
I think whether or not it is fair comes down, once again, to how much of a relationship there is between the human and the vampire, or, in this case, between the unsouled Angelus and souled Angel. While there are all sorts of complications to this, I think, fundamentally, they are different enough that it isn't fair to punish Angel for what Angelus has done.
Ebova Jbbq, rira va gur zvqfg bs uvf iratnapr, npxabjyrqtrf nf zhpu jura ur gevrf gb qrfgebl Fcvxr va "Yvrf zl Cneragf Gbyq Zr": ur cynlf gur fbat gung npgf nf Fcvxr'f gevttre cerpvfryl orpnhfr ur jnagf gb xvyy gur zbafgre gung zheqrerq uvf zbgure, abg gur fbhyrq Fcvxr.
V guvax vg’f gevpxl, gelvat gb haqrefgnaq gur phefr – vf zntvp gung cbjreshy pbagebyynoyr, naq vf gur fhssrevat bs Natry n arprffnel pbafrdhrapr bs uvz univat uvf fbhy onpx? Naq vf vg cbffvoyr gb znxr na hafbhyrq inzcver srry onq nobhg jung ur’f qbar, naq vs vg’f abg qb lbh whfg frggyr sbe ABG yrggvat uvz or gur hafbhyrq zbafgre nalzber, naq whfg gehfg gb gur uhzna fbhy gb srry nf fuvggl nf cbffvoyr nsgrejneqf?
**ybgf bs snajnax**
rot13d – qb abg gnyx nobhg gur angher bs gur phefr lrg.
"I mean, honestly, I’m kind of on the side of her uncle here? Angelus killed a bunch of people. That is not ok, and it kind of sucks that his terrible punishment is now actually turning into a bonus for him. Does he really have the right to be happy after what he did?"
A lot of that depends on what your fanwank is (and whatever bits of cannon the show has thrown our way) on what the personhood of a vampire actually is.
If a person would never murder people with a soul, and that soul is taken from them, are they responsible for the things they do while it is gone? Is it the demon who committed the atrocities within the person's body? Or the person under the influence of the demon? Is a soul just remorse, or something more? It all gets very, very tricky. Is Angel being unfairly punished for something he had no control over? Or is Angelus being punished by the existence of Angel's soul, with Angel's suffering being the unfortunate but necessary side-effect? Certainly it seems that the Romani feel the latter way, while the Scoobies feel the former. Ng yrnfg sbe abj. Nyy orgf ner bss nsgre Natryhf xvyyf Wraal, nccneragyl.
THIS THIS THIS. I wish it were clearer what the relationship between person/vampire-demon/vampire-demon-with-soul is. Maybe the show will explain it more as it goes on, but I thought it was fairly established that there is you as a person, and then there is the demon that possesses you when you become a vampire. In which case, the evil actions of Angelus are definitely the demon's fault and not the fault of whoever Angel was before he became a vampire, because that person is dead.
Now, punishing Angelus by giving him a soul (and thus, empathy/remorse) and allowing him to feel guilty about those deaths is a fitting retribution. However, it begs the question– whose soul is it? Is it Angel's former, human soul? Or is it not really a specific "soul" and simply the ability to feel emotions? If it is a human soul, than the curse is kind of unfair because you are punishing human!Angel for Angelus's actions. It seems more likely that it's not a specific soul but simply the emotions that the demon is lacking. Fitting punishment for Angelus.
However… then we get into questions like 'how long does someone deserve to be punished for their actions'? Angel has obviously spent 80-90 years deeply upset and regretting what he did. If you alter someone's emotions and actions to the point that they become a new person, is it really fair to punish them forever for something that they did when in (basically) an altered state of mind?
It is honestly really complicated. There's a parallel I'd like to make, but unfortunately it is full of Sandman spoilers. Suffice to say that while I can definitely get behind the motivations of the people who punished Angelus…. I don't know if I approve of the specifics. But we'll get to that.
Yeah, agreed. Motivations, okay, they had a right to be angry and to want vengeance. How they did it? Not sure they really thought it through.
"Maybe the show will explain it more as it goes on, but I thought it was fairly established that there is you as a person, and then there is the demon that possesses you when you become a vampire."
No, actually it was not. It was just something Giles said that seems to be a part of Watcher ideology, but it's been contradicted by pretty much everything on the show from the start. (And how would Watchers know, anyway?)
Once you let go off that idea, everything about the vampires in both shows makes sense. With that idea… well, very little does.
Actually, I think the demon possession thing is confirmed in Season 2 Episode 8: "The Dark Age". At the end Angel is used to capture the spirit and he says something about having a demon in him, one more won't hurt, or something. It's been a while since I watched the episode for a while, so I don't remember the exact quote, but he specifically mentions his demon. While the relationship is still very unclear, I think that the demon aspect is pretty solid.
The demon possession stuff was pushed pretty hard in the ep with Buffy's old friend and his vamp-worship cult, hard enough that unless we get an explicit "hey! Guess what, this was all wrong!" in the future I'm pretty sure we're supposed to accept it as fact.
Yeah, I do see where you're coming from…I mean, it's pretty clear that the Angel we know now isn't the same guy who committed all those atrocities. As Buffy said, it's really just a demon that takes over your body and can access your memories.
I think from a logical point of view, it isn't fair that Angel has to suffer for what his demon did to others, since he's just as much a victim to it as they are. Nonetheless…I guess what I really mean is that I can understand the attitude of her uncle. If something like that happened to people I care about, I don't think I'd be thinking too objectively either.
At least we see Jenny is pretty conflicted about it, having known Angel with his soul (if only briefly), so it's clear that the main advocates of this curse probably aren't really aware of the distinction between the demon and the man.
It's just a case of blind revenge, which is misguided, but understandable.
"I mean, it's pretty clear that the Angel we know now isn't the same guy who committed all those atrocities"
I think it's pretty clear that he IS the same guy, even though the soul gives him a conscience and makes him feel guilty. So you could say that he isn't the same guy metaphorically (as in "he's not the same man now that he's stopped drinking") but literally? Yes, he's the same.
Vg'f bar bs gur gevpxvre dhrfgvbaf gur fubj arire dhvgr nafjref, nygubhtu vg'f rkcyberq va tbbq qrcgu ba "Natry." Jr trg gur frafr gung gurer jrer n gbgny bs guerr erpbtavmnoyr crefbanyvgvrf gung unir vaunovgrq Natry'f obql: Yvnz, Natryhf, naq Natry. Yvnz vf, boivbhfyl, gur "rafbhyrq" crefba cevbe gb uvf gheavat. Ohg gur yvar orgjrra Natryhf naq Natry, naq orgjrra Natry naq Yvnz, vf zber zhqql. Natryhf naq Natry pregnvayl unir zber va pbzzba guna rvgure bs gurz unir jvgu Yvnz.
Vg trgf rira zhexvre jura lbh guebj Fcvxr'f bja zragny gevavgl vagb gur zvk (Jvyyvnz, Fcvxr, Fbhyl-Fcvxr). Fcvxr vf cerggl zhpu gur fnzr thl jvgubhg n fbhy nf ur vf nsgre uvf fbhy vf erghearq, whfg jvgu yrff bs na vagrerfg va gur jubyr znff zheqre guvat. Naq gurer'f n zber boivbhf guebhtuyvar onpx gb Jvyyvnz sebz obgu sbezf bs Fcvxr guna gurer jnf sbe Yvnz naq Natryhf/Natry.
Ohg vg'f vagrerfgvat gung, va obgu "inzcver jvgu n fbhy" pnfrf, gur er-rafbhyrq inzcver unf sne zber va pbzzba jvgu uvf fbhyyrff sbez guna uvf bevtvany uhzna sbez. Vg fhttrfgf gung gur er-rafbhyrq inzcver vf nyzbfg n jubyr arj crefba, nyorvg bar gung vf nznytnzngrq sebz gur uhzna naq inzcver gung cerprqrq vg. Natry'f arireraqvat thvygsrfg, gurersber, pbzrf sebz uvf vagreany fgehttyr jvgu gur zrzbevrf naq vzchyfrf bs Natryhf (v.r. gur guvatf gung, gb fbzr rkgrag, znxr Natryhf JUB UR VF), engure guna arprffnevyl n oryvrs gung ur vf npghnyyl qverpgyl phycnoyr sbe Natryhf'f pevzrf.
Gura ntnva, jura chfurq gb vg va "Va gur Qnex," Natry nqzvgf gung jung ur frrxf vf "erqrzcgvba," fb znlor V'z whfg znxvat fghss hc. :Q
Ab, V nterr, guvf frrzf gb or gur pnfr. Jr xabj gung gur qrzba unf nyy gur uhzna'f zrzbevrf, whfg abg gurve rzbgvbaf be nal xvaq bs pbzcnffvba. Nf rkcyberq zber va 'Qbyyubhfr', lbhe zrzbevrf znxr hc n YBG bs jub lbh ner. Fb V pbhyq frr gur inzcver orvat noyr gb trg pybfr gb orvat gurve sbezre uhzna frys, ohg jvgubhg gur uhzna rzbgvbaf, gurl pna'g dhvgr znxr vg.
V'z abg pbaivaprq gung gur "fbhy" gurl trg vf ernyyl gurve bja, uhzna fbhy gubhtu. Nf lbh fnvq, fbhyrq!Fcvxr vf ernyyl whfg inzcver!Fcvxr, ohg zhpu yrff rivy. Fb vg frrzf yvxr tvivat n inzcver n "fbhy" vf ernyyl whfg nqqvat pbzcnffvba naq fhpu onpx vagb gur crefbanyvgl gung gur qrzba unf qrirybcrq bhg bs n zvk bs vgf bja crefbanyvgl naq gur uhzna zrzbevrf.
V srry yvxr gur qvfcnevgl vf zbfgyl n erfhyg bs punatvat pnaba nf gur fubj tbrf ba (qrfcvgr orvat gbyq gung nyy qrzbaf ner rivy, va Natry rfcrpvnyyl jr yrnea dhvpxyl gung guvf vfa'g gur pnfr) naq V'z abg ernyyl sbaq bs gur vqrn gung n inzcver vf n qrzba-cbffrffrq obql.
V qb guvax gur fubj vf njshyyl snfg gb oynzr Natry sbe rirelguvat ur qbrf jvgu Natryhf, jura bgure fvghngvbaf vaibyivat cbffrffvba ner zber yvxryl gb or oehfurq bss nf "vg'f bxnl, vg'f abg lbhe snhyg, lbh jrer cbffrffrq."
"Jr xabj gung gur qrzba unf nyy gur uhzna'f zrzbevrf, whfg abg gurve rzbgvbaf be nal xvaq bs pbzcnffvba."
Gb or cerpvfr, jr xabj gung gur Jngpuref fnl guvf vf gehr, ohg jr unir ab cebbs gung gurl ner pbeerpg.
Fcvxr rkcyvpvgyl gryyf Ohssl fur'f jebat jura fur pynvzf gur fnzr guvat va frnfba 6 naq ur fubhyq xabj. Nyfb, va pnfr ur pbhyq unir orra ylvat, frnfba 7 tvirf hf rivqrapr ur vf gryyvat gur gehgu va uvf nggrzcg gb fnir uvf zbgure ol gheavat ure. Ur qbrfa'g tb ba n zheqrebhf enzcntr gb xvyy rirelbar ur xarj, yvxr Natryhf qvq, uvf svefg npg hcba orpbzvat n inzcver, nsgre fpughccvat Qeh, vf gb gel gb fnir uvf zbgure.
Nu. Vagrerfgvat. V unira'g frra nyy bs Ohssl lrg; V'z zbfg bs gur jnl guebhtu F4 naq V'ir frra cvrprf bs F5-7 ohg abg nyy bs gurz. Vs gur Pbhapvy vf gur fbhepr bs gung vasb guna… lrnu, vg'f cebonoyl jebat.
Hasbeghangryl, V guvax guvf vf zber ribyivat jevgvat ba Jurqba naq gur bgure jevgref' cnegf, engure guna gurve bevtvany vqrn, juvpu vf jung perngrf gur pbasyvpg. V xvaq bs jvfu gurl'q orra pyrnere sebz gur fgneg, nygubhtu V qb haqrefgnaq gung vqrnf punatr bire gvzr.
Nyfb, jura Tvyrf fnlf fbzrguvat gb gur fnzr rssrpg, V guvax arkg frnfba, Natry tbrf "Jryy, npghnyyl –" ohg sbe fbzr ernfba (V pna'g erzrzore jul; vagreehcgrq? whfg genvyf bss? nterrf jvgu Tvyrf gb nccrnfr uvz?) qbrfa'g pbzcyrgr gur gubhtug.
Vfa'g gung va "Qbccyrtnatynaq" jura Jvyybj zrrgf inzc!Jvyybj naq gryyf gur Fpbbovrf gung fur'f "xvaqn tnl"? Tvyrf gryyf ure gung gur inzcver naq gur crefba unir abguvat gb qb jvgu rnpu bgure naq Natry gevrf gb pbeerpg uvz ohg Ohssl fgbcf uvz fb nf abg gb hcfrg Jvyybj.
Npghnyyl, Ohssl gevrf gb pbzsbeg Jvyybj, fnlvat gung fur fubhyq erzrzore gung gur inzcver unf abguvat gb qb jvgu gur uhzna, naq Natry fgnegf: "Jryy, npghnyyl…" ohg fgbcf jura Ohssl tynerf ng uvz.
V qba'g xabj vs bgure crbcyr nqqerff guvf va erfcbafr gb lbh – ohg zl gubhtugf ba vg ner gung jura lbh orpbzr n inzcver gur qrzba va lbh fgvyy unf lbhe zbfg "cerffvat" (frevbhfyl, oenva sneg, V pnaabg guvax bs gur jbeq V jnag gung vf orggre guna "cerffvat," ohg ubcrshyyl jung V zrna pbzrf guebhtu naljnl) rzbgvbaf pbzr guebhtu – yvxr Fcvxr jnagvat gb fnir uvf zbgure orpnhfr ur jnf fyvtugyl bofrffrq jvgu ure jura ur jnf nyvir, ohg uvf zbgure gheavat vagb n perrcre jura fur trgf ghearq orpnhfr fur qvqa'g unir gung qevivat sbepr oruvaq ure crefbanyvgl. Naq znlor Natry jrag ba n enzcntr jura ur jnf ghearq orpnhfr va uvf urnq ur jnf ernyyl haunccl jvgu rirelbar naq jvfurq ur pbhyq trg evq bs gurz jura ur jnf nyvir. VQX, vg'f orra n juvyr fvapr V'ir jngpurq gur fubj fb V sbetrg gur onpxfgbel bs Yvnz, fb V pbhyq or gnyxvat bhg zl nff.
Gur jnl vg nccrnef gb zr vf gung n inzcver vf gur fhz bs uvf/ure zbfg onfr vafgvapgf jvgubhg gur cerfrapr bs gur fbhy, juvpu npgrq nf n pbafpvrapr jura gurl jrer nyvir. Gur inzcver vf gur yvmneq ibvpr gung fcrnxf vafvqr nyy bhe urnegf orsber fbpvnyvmngvba frgf va naq zbqrengrf bhe onfre vzchyfrf.
Angel spoilers…
Vs gur fcrpvsvp fbhy qvqa'g znggre, guna gurer jbhyqa'g unir orra fhpu na hcebne jura Natry'f fbhy jrag zvffvat sebz gur fnsr va Natry…gurl pbhyq'ir whfg lnaxrq n fbhy qbja sebz naljurer.
Frr, Va Natry V frr n Yvnz jub unf zngherq orlbaq cbvagyrff entr ntnvafg n sngure ur gubhtug jnf gbb fgevpg naq jub unf, gubhtu gelvat gb znxr hc sbe uvf cnfg npgvbaf, sbhaq n pnyyvat orlbaq jnfgery ynlnobhg.
V qba'g frr n 3eq crefbanyvgl. V frr gur obl zngherq vagb n zna.
Zl erfcbafr, onfrq ragveryl ba zl rkcrevrapr va Ohssl snaqbz vf gung vg qrcraqf ragveryl ba jurgure be abg lbhe anzr vf Fcvxr be Natry
Un. V guvax gung'f npghnyyl pnaaba. 😉
V erpbzzraq gur rffnl "Vg'f n Fghcvq Phefr" ol Znethrevgr Xenhfr sbe lbh — fur nqqerffrf n ybg bs gur dhrfgvbaf lbh whfg envfrq. Vg'f choyvfurq va gur gur obbx "Svir Frnfbaf bs Natry," naq hasbeghangryl V pbhyqa'g svaq na bayvar yvax gb gur shyy rffnl sbe lbh, ohg vs lbh pna trg n ubyq bs vg, vg'f qrsvavgryl jbegu n ernq. Gur ragver nagubybtl vf, npghnyyl.
Gur svefg pbhcyr cnentencuf ner ninvynoyr urer: uggc://jjj.fznegcbcobbxf.pbz/vgf-n-fghcvq-phefr/
V ebg13'rq guvf orpnhfr V gubhtug gur gvgyr bs gur rffnl zvtug or pbafvqrerq rkcrpgngvba fcbvyref. V nffhzr vs lbh'er ernqvat guvf lbh qba'g zvaq fcbvyref, ohg or njner gung vg qbrf fcbvy obgu fubjf.
Moderator Note
Guvf cbfg unf orra ercbegrq sbe fcbvyref. Cyrnfr abgr gung ravtzngvpntragfphyyl vf jngpuvat gur fubj sbe gur svefg gvzr—ure VagrafrQrongr cebsvyr rira fnlf "Jngpuvat sbe gur svefg gvzr!"—naq gur snpg gung fur unf pbeerpgyl cerqvpgrq jung vf tbvat ba vf ABG n fcbvyre. Cyrnfr nyfb abgr gung nf n zbqrengbe, fur erprvirf fcbvyre ercbegf, fb ercbegvat ure bja cbfg sbe fcbvyref freirf nf pbasvezngvba gung ure cerqvpgvba jnf pbeerpg. Jr nccerpvngr lbhe qvyvtrapr va ercbegvat fcbvyref, ohg or njner gung fbzr crbcyr ner jngpuvat nybat jvgu Znex naq znxvat gurve bja—fbzrgvzrf pbeerpg—cerqvpgvbaf.
Ohg, qhevat Nzrevpna Tbqf, qvqa’g lbh thlf znxr crbcyr chg fcrphyngvba va ebg13 fb crbcyr jbhyqa’g nppvqragnyyl fcbvy Znex? Rira vs gurl’q arire ernq gur obbx orsber?
Chg guvf va ebg13 orpnhfr gurer’f gbb zhpu ebbz gb pbaarpg gur qbgf ba jung fcrpgenyobivar’f pbzzrag vf nobhg – V ernyyl qba’g jnag ravtzngvpntragfphyyl fcbvyrq.
NSNVX, bayl bar gvzr qvq gung unccra ba NT, naq V jnf gur bar gb ebg13 vg. Vg’f uneq orvat n zbq ba guvf fhowrpg orpnhfr gurer ner crbcyr ercbegvat vg naq fhpu naq vg’f uneq gb xabj jung gb qb. Orpnhfr guvf pbzzrag V’z guvaxvat bs ba NT jnf gur frpbaq gb ynfg puncgre naq vg jnf pyrneyl fbzrbar pbaarpgvat gur qbgf gbtrgure va n jnl gung jnf boivbhfyl pbeerpg naq V’z fher gur pbzzragre xarj gurl jrer evtug bapr gurl znqr gur pbaarpgvba, V qrpvqrq gb ebg13 vg. Fubegyl nsgre gung vapvqrag, fbzrguvat fvzvyne unccrarq qhevat OFT ohg V qvqa’g ebg13 vg orpnhfr gung pbzzragre pyrneyl qvqa’g xabj jurgure be abg gurl jrer evtug.
Jr unir ab rfgnoyvfurq ehyr sbe guvf fbeg bs guvat. Zbqf unir nfxrq Znex gb nfx crbcyr gb pyrneyl ynory gurve bja fcrphyngvba nf fhpu, cersrenoyl jvgu n urnqre fb vg’f rnfvre gb fxvc bire gur fcrphyngvba (frr QJ F6 ba guvf fvgr), naq gb znxr pyrne gurl ner jngpuvat sbe gur svefg gvzr. Znex unf lrg gb znxr gung fbeg bs naabhprzrag, fb nf vf, jr cynl vg ol rne. Ohg vg vf abg gur ehyr gung crbcyr unir gb chg gurve fcrphyngvba va ebg13. Jr whfg ubcr crbcyr znxr vg rnfl sbe bguref gb nibvq ernqvat fcrphyngvba ol qrpynevat vg nf fhpu orsber fgnegvat gur fcrphyngvba.
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
EXCELLENT
BRB LOLING FOREVER
How come you're so flawless always?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA OMG. XD
It is important to properly stretch before any workout!
One!
Two!
Yeah!
True story: that's exactly what I told an inquisitive classmate who was asking about the what what up the butt after I'd come out.
lol "what what up the butt"
FLAWLESS 😀
Lol I was watching this with my brother and when Angel got out of bed, he was like "what's going on?"
I just said, "He probably has diarrhea…"
Just so you know, your enormous pictures make it REALLY hard to read the comments on an iPad where scrolling past them requires more effort. Any chance they could be a bit smaller? (And I can't even tell what they are bc FlipBoard makes them all stretched out.)
I'm sorry! I did resize in the HTML, and it looks fine on my computer, but since the original picture is big, I guess it can display bigger on different devices. I'll try to shrink the original picture down rather than rely on HTML resizes in the future. Thanks for letting me know.
Hey, wait, I did use a smaller image this time. It's only 640 x 480. Is that too big? Huh. Again, it looks fine on my screen and doesn't cause a scroll in the comments like some larger pictures I've seen. I'll try to be mindful, though.
<img src=http://i.imgur.com/TyKIAl.jpg>
<img src=http://i.imgur.com/TyKIAl.jpg>
Buffy is once again having some creepy dreams. And I get that Angel is trying to calm Buffy down, but he still comes off as a bit… dismissive? Idk. It’s just like Buffy has had prophetic dreams before. It’ d be nice if you take her seriously if she has a dream and has a bad feeling about it. And idk. Buffy and Angel never really sparked for me. So watching them make out is just kinda awkward instead of ~hot~. So all their macking in this scene does nothing for me.
“What if the talking thing becomes the awkward silence thing?” LOL WILLOW I KNOW YOUR PAIN. But she and Oz are really cute together. LIKE REALLY CUTE. ;LAKSDJFL;DKSJFAS; THEY GIVE ME ALL THE WARM FUZZIES. Oz is so adorable. The scene at the Bronze where Oz is all, “Hey did everybody just seen that guy turn to dust?” cracks me up. And also lulz at him being like “yeah… that explains a lot” when he finds out that there are vampires in Sunnydale.
The scene where Xander teases Buffy about giving her a “pre-birthday spanking” is really skeevy to me. Like he’s been crushing on her hard for a year, so it just lends a creepy vibe to the whole thing. And it’s kind of annoying to me that even though earlier in the episode Xander wanted Cordelia to be his girlfriend, later in the library he’s all fantasizing about how he can ~save~ her from Angel the cherry on top of which is where SHE CRIES. WTF, XANDER? And then his insecurities about Cordelia not wanting to be his girlfriend makes him dismissive of Oz. GDI Xander, be happy for your friend. (Speaking of Cordelia, HOW CUTE IS HER “SURPRISE!”?)
I think it’s interesting that Spike and Drusilla’s roles have been reversed. After the big fight earlier, Spike is now the invalid and it’s Dru who has to take care of him. And now that Dru is back in full health, she’s throwing herself a party! The grand finale of which will be resurrecting a demon that can bring about Armageddon. I mean really though, what’s a party without the possibility of the end of the world? Certainly not a part I’d want to go to!
Oh good. Here’s an offensive Romani stereotype. Oh snap! What! Jenny is somehow involved with the people who cursed Angel with a soul? DUN DUN DUUUUN. She’s trying to fulfill her duty or whatever, but she does think that Angel has changed and has some good in him which makes her reluctant to do so. Jenny trying to get rid of Angel is clearly her attempt at fulfilling her responsibility- separating Buffy and Angel so that Angel can’t find happiness. And I think she’s trying to do it in as gentle as way as possible. Plus, I think she’s convinced herself that it really is in Buffy’s best interest.
So Angel and Buffy ~do it~, and then he wakes up and screams in the alleyway? And then it’s “to be continued…” HMMMMMMMMMMMM. I SUPPOSE YOU’LL HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THE NEXT EPISODE TO FIND OUT WHAT THAT IS ALL ABOUT. BWAHAHAHA.
Yeah, Xander's fantasizing how Buffy would end up miserable and how awesome it would be when he comes to save her as she's crying is totally gross. What the hell kind of friend are you that you actually fantasize about the people you care about ending up miserable just so you can revel in selfish glee because she didn't pick you? blaagghhh…
Oz's reaction to the vampire dusting was amazing. I totally forgot at this point that he wasn't in on it, or that he was even there. It was the last moment of chuckles I had during this episode, as after that shit really started rolling downhill.
I was always kinda of meh… about Buffy and Angel's relationship. I just couldn't relate to it at all. I never dated older guys, and I find Angel to be paternalistic sometimes, which I can't deal with in a relationship. I have dad issues… and I don't like guys to act like one if I'm with them.
all joy is destroyed forever
Well DUH, Mark, it’s Joss Whedon.
Rewatch thoughts:
– …leave French alone, BtVS
– get better dream music, Buffy
– so Angel, you generally hang around your flat shirtless and in dress pants?
– WILLOW’S HAT
– carpe diem, yeah, Buffy told you that and you were almost killed by a vampire, remember that part, Willow?
– also, if you can’t actually say "sex", you shouldn’t have sex
– aww, her hat almost matches his shirt. Both are ugly! ADORBS
– awwww WILLOW/OZ ALL THE ADORBS yes you said "date" see now you are allowed to have one
– "I have everything to be ashamed of"? low blow, Cordelia
– leave Vienna alone, Spike 🙁
– Dru and Spike’s chemistry remains superb. I adore the partial redistribution of roles.
– Joyce, you gave Buffy the perfect opening there, it’s your own fault
– hello, Uncle Ethnic Stereotype and your Vaguely Eastern European accent. You’re a badly, sloppily written caricature and … just major ugh and major minus points for this episode because of you and your stereotypical representation of Romani culture.
– at least Giles gives it back some points by being awesome and adorable. I do approve of that.
<img src="http://i39.tinypic.com/bgdwmw.gif">
– and as soon as we know she’s Romani, Jenny is used for traitor shots and sinister mood setting. awesome writing, you writers obviously went to the writings school of good writing
– aww Giles
<img src="http://i39.tinypic.com/2zguon6.gif">
– and aww Oz, too
– maybe you shouldn’t say "see" around Dru
– yeah, it’s touching and stuff, but this romance bull is getting on my nerves (sorry, it does! after having seen this scene 20 times it loses its touchingness)
– Willow, give Xander more of the side eye. God, Xander, you were doing good on the non-grossness this episode and now you had to go ruin it
– oh goody, Jenny gets to be a mysterious dream presence now, too. this just pisses me off now.
– Vyylevn vf n zhpu orggre fzhes
– no, not Dalton I liked him 🙁
– DO IT AGAIN, DO IT AGAIN! oh Dru
– and you’re getting wet again
– RUHROH!
German title: Der Fluch der Zigeuner – The Curse of the Gypsies.
…seriously? Okay, I think that is an awful title (and btw, I don’t think ‘Der Fluch der Roma’ (the generally approved of name for Romani in German would be ‘Sinti und Roma’, although there is some debate about that term’s inclusivity, as far as I’m aware) would’ve been better, actually). While the name awareness certainly wasn’t as much there in the 90s as (I hope) it’d be nowadays, its title just sits there being… awful.
all joy is destroyed forever
Well DUH, Mark, it’s Joss Whedon.
Rewatch thoughts:
– …leave French alone, BtVS
– get better dream music, Buffy
– so Angel, you generally hang around your flat shirtless and in dress pants?
– WILLOW’S HAT
– carpe diem, yeah, Buffy told you that and you were almost killed by a vampire, remember that part, Willow?
– also, if you can’t actually say "sex", you shouldn’t have sex
– aww, her hat almost matches his shirt. Both are ugly! ADORBS
– awwww WILLOW/OZ ALL THE ADORBS yes you said "date" see now you are allowed to have one
– "I have everything to be ashamed of"? low blow, Cordelia
– leave Vienna alone, Spike 🙁
– Dru and Spike’s chemistry remains superb. I adore the partial redistribution of roles.
– Joyce, you gave Buffy the perfect opening there, it’s your own fault
– hello, Uncle Ethnic Stereotype and your Vaguely Eastern European accent. You’re a badly, sloppily written caricature and … just major ugh and major minus points for this episode because of you and your stereotypical representation of Romani culture.
– at least Giles gives it back some points by being awesome and adorable. I do approve of that.
<img src="http://i39.tinypic.com/bgdwmw.gif">
– and as soon as we know she’s Romani, Jenny is used for traitor shots and sinister mood setting. awesome writing, you writers obviously went to the writings school of good writing
– aww Giles
<img src="http://i39.tinypic.com/2zguon6.gif">
– and aww Oz, too
– maybe you shouldn’t say "see" around Dru
– yeah, it’s touching and stuff, but this romance bull is getting on my nerves (sorry, it does! after having seen this scene 20 times it loses its touchingness)
– Willow, give Xander more of the side eye. God, Xander, you were doing good on the non-grossness this episode and now you had to go ruin it
– oh goody, Jenny gets to be a mysterious dream presence now, too. this just pisses me off now.
– Vyylevn vf n zhpu orggre fzhes
– no, not Dalton I liked him 🙁
– DO IT AGAIN, DO IT AGAIN! oh Dru
– and you’re getting wet again
– ah FINALLY they FUCK
– but – RUHROH!
German title: Der Fluch der Zigeuner – The Curse of the Gypsies.
…seriously? Okay, I think that is an awful title (and btw, I don’t think ‘Der Fluch der Roma’ (the generally approved of name for Romani in German would be ‘Sinti und Roma’, although there is some debate about that term’s inclusivity, as far as I’m aware) would’ve been better, actually). While the name awareness certainly wasn’t as much there in the 90s as (I hope) it’d be nowadays, its title just sits there being… awful.
"also, if you can’t actually say "sex", you shouldn’t have sex "
Agreed. I am kinda conflicted on Buffy having sex. On one hand, there's this pressure she has from the fact that she is quite literally fighting for her life on a very regular basis. If not now, when? There really is a very good argument for her to carpe diem here. But on the other hand, the way she talks about sex (as well as her body language at Angel's just prior to the sex scene) makes it appear as though she is not emotionally ready for sex. So, hmm. I don't know.
I wanted to write an actual comment but my thoughts are mostly your thoughts, so… *upvote*
V'z xvaqn fnq gung Ohssl'f srryvatf nobhg univat frk (haqrefgnaqnoyl) trg chfurq gb gur fvqr orpnhfr bs gur Natryhf qenzn. Fhssrevat gur gerngzrag fur qbrf nsgre ure svefg gvzr vf obhaq gb tvir nalbar vffhrf nobhg gurve frkhnyvgl/pbasvqrapr/obql vzntr rgp. Lrg guvf arire trgf nqqerffrq va gur fubj. Fur fcraqf nyy bs guveq frnfba hanoyr gb unir frk jvgu Natry orpnhfr bs uvf phefr. Ure arkg frkhny cnegare vf Cnexre, jubz fur whzcf vagb orq jvgu nsgre n svir zvahgr npdhnvagnapr – V nyjnlf sbhaq gung xvaq bs fgenatr tvira gur zragny frk-eryngrq genhzn fur zhfg unir. Ure frk yvsr jvgu Evyrl vf n inavyyn aba-rirag, frrzf yvxr, naq vg'f abg hagvy Fcvxr va frnfba 6, jurer Ohssl vf n pbzcyrgryl qvssrerag crefba, gung jr trg nal qvfphffvba bs ure frkhnyvgl. V srry yvxr gur fubj pbhyq unir tbggra fbzr tbbq rcvfbqrf bhg bs rkcybevat ubj gur riragf bs Fhecevfr/Vaabprapr shpx Ohssl hc jvgu ertneqf gb frk. Ohg V thrff gung zvtug unir orra gbb qnex/zngher sbe gur JO?
Nterrq. V zrna, V trg jurer Wbff zrnag gb tb jvgu vg. Gur uvtu fpubby cnenyyry vf fhccbfrq gb or gung Natryhf vf gur oblsevraq jub snxrq n eryngvbafuvc gb trg ynvq, naq gura punatrq jura ur tbg jung ur jnagrq. Vg qbrf unccra. Ohg jurer ner gur pbafrdhraprf gb Ohssl'f eryngvbafuvc gbjneqf frk be ure cbffvoyl abg-rzbgvbanyyl-ernqvarff? (V guvax Tvyrf FBEG BS nqqerffrf guvf va gur arkg rcvfbqr, ohg vg pbzrf npebff yrff nf "znlor lbh jrera'g fb ernql" naq zber nf "lbh jrer enfu sbe univat frk, crevbq" juvpu frrzf n ovg fyhg-funzrl.) Lrf, Ohssl qbrf vzzrqvngryl purpx gb frr vs Cnexre vf fgvyy gurer nsgre gurl jnxr hc gur arkg zbeavat – pnyyvat onpx gb Fhecevfr/Vaabprapr. Ohg fur jnfa'g tha-ful gb ortva jvgu? Naq jbhyqa'g lbh guvax fur'q or ZBER tha-ful jvgu Evyrl?
V'z fb tynq V'z abg gur bayl bar jub sbhaq Tvyrf gbgnyyl fyhg-funzrl va Vaabprapr. V jnf nyy "Jnl gb or fhccbegvir!"
V zrna, V qba'g guvax ur npghnyyl ZRNAG gb or. V guvax ur jnf npghnyyl gelvat gb or fhccbegvir naq V guvax gurl jrer gelvat gb gvr vg va gb gur snpg gung znlor Ohssl jnfa'g rzbgvbanyyl ernql. Ohg vg pnzr bss jrveq. Ubj vf fur npgvat enfu vs gurer jnf ab jnl bs xabjvat gur pbafrdhraprf? Ubj jbhyq Tvyrf xabj jurgure Ohssl jnf rzbgvbanyyl ernql be abg?
Evyrl jnf gur fnsr thl sbe Ohssl gubhtu. V guvax znlor gung'f jul fur jnf qenja gbjneqf uvz–orpnhfr ur jnf na nyy-nebhaq avpr qhqr jub jnfa'g gur glcr gb gerng Ohssl yvxr "n gbvyrg frng" be jungrire gung ubeevoyr zrgncube Cnexre hfrq jnf. Fb nsgre Natry naq Cnexre, gung'f jung fur jnagrq naq arrqrq–fbzrbar fnsr naq eryvnoyr.
"Ure frk yvsr jvgu Evyrl vf n inavyyn aba-rirag, frrzf yvxr…"
Jun? V frrz gb erzrzore gurz fcraqvat na ragver rcvfbqr va orq, univat frk.
Naq gurer jnf gur rcvfbqr va juvpu na vzcbegnag zbagntr jnf gurz univat frk juvyr Qe. Jnyfu jnf jngpuvat, gubhtu gung ynfg cneg jnf havagragvbany. Gurl frrzrq fngvfsvrq jvgu gurve frk.
V guvax Ohssl orvat noyr gb unir serdhrag, thvyg-serr, nccneragyl fngvfslvat frk jnf cebonoyl gur orfg cneg nobhg ure eryngvbafuvc jvgu Evyrl.
V guvax jung Ohssl/Evyrl frk jr fnj jnf pbyberq ol gur snpg gung fur jnf fubja bapr trggvat bhg bs orq evtug nsgre frk gb tb oybj bss fgrnz ol fynlvat.
Naq gb or ubarfg, V'z abg fher gung tubfg sbeprq frk va na ncuebqvfvnp ubhfr pbhagf nf rivqrapr bs univat n terng frk yvsr.
Naq bs pbhefr, Evyrl fhssref sebz orvat pnyyrq Pncgnva Pneqobneq.
V'z ovnfrq, gubhtu. V jnf urnegoebxra jura vg orpnzr pyrne gung ur jnfa'g gurer gb or n ybir vagrerfg sbe Jvyybj. V arire gubhtu Ohssl naq Evyrl unq nal purzvfgel ng nyy, ohg VZB Evyrl naq Jvyybj jrer bss gur punegf.
Jnvg, jung rcvfbqr? V QBA'G ERZRZORE NAL FHPU RCVFBQR VG ZHFG ABG RKVFG BE VS VG RKVFGRQ VG JNF FB ONQ GUNG V OYBPXRQ VG SEBZ ZL ZRZBEL YNYNYNYNYNYNYN PNA'G URNE LBHHHHHH
Vg'f gur bar jurer gurl tb gb gur seng cnegl ng n ubhfr gung'f unhagrq ol gur tubfgf bs frkhnyyl ercerffrq puvyqera naq Ohssl naq Evyrl raq hc trggvat cbffrffrq naq unir frk sbe yvxr RIRE.
V guvax gurl'er orvat snprgvbhfyl vtabevat gur rkvfgnapr bs gung rcvfbqr :C
Bu. BBCF. Jryy V qba'g zvaq gur rcvfbqr, orpnhfr V pyvat gb fbzr njrfbzr Fchssl snasvp jurer vg jnf Fcvxr gurer vafgrnq bs Evyrl.
Fchssl snasvp znxrf n ybg bs guvf fubj orggre.
Pna V gehfg gung lbh'yy yvax gb gung jura jr trg gb gur rcvfbqr va dhrfgvba?
Has anybody ever rot13'd a link before?
uggc://jjj.anhgvovgm.pbz/svp/jvyqguvatf00.ugzy
Enjoy. >D
They have now! And thank you!
V QBA'G XABJ JUNG LBH NER GNYXVAT NOBHG. GUNG RCVFBQR QBRFA'G RKVFG BA GUR QIQF V UNIR. YNYNYNYNYNYNYYN
Ure frk yvsr jvgu Evyrl vf n inavyyn aba-rirag, frrzf yvxr
Rkprcg va JGJGJ. Ubhfr-betnfz frk.
Naq Fcvxr frrzf gb srry Ohssl vf qrznaqvat naq vairagvir. Cerfhznoyl fur yrnearq be qrirybcrq fbzr bs gung jvgu Evyrl? N thl jub trgf uvf xvpxf sebz inzcf-sbe-erag yngre vf hayvxryl gb or 100% inavyyn va nyy uvf gnfgrf, fheryl?
CBYGRETNFZ
In my mind, this bit of rot13 is read as "CYBORG EGRETS."
Cbygretnfz jvgu irtrgngvba!
V pbafvqre Evyrl uvzfrys n inavyyn aba-rirag.
V nyfb ybir gung qrfpevcgvba, ol gur jnl.
Cnexre jnf onfvpnyyl Ohssl gelvat gb erobhaq sebz Natry ol tbvat sbe n uhzna thl jub nccrnyrq gb gur fnzr ebznagvp graqrapvrf va ure gung Natry qvq – ur frrzrq avpr naq frafvgvir naq uvagrq gung ur unq n qrrc, gbegherq fbhy. Gura fur tbg ohearq naq yrnearq gung rira gur uhzna thlf jrera'g fnsr. Gur arkg thl fur jrag sbe jnf Evyrl, jub frrzrq fnsr – fur fnvq fur jnf qenja gb uvz orpnhfr ur jnf "fbyvq" naq ybbxrq yvxr "ur jbhyqa'g uheg zr". Fur qrpvqrq fur jnf qbar jvgu eryngvbafuvcf gung jrer nobhg "cnva naq svtugvat" nf fur chg vg va Fbzrguvat Oyhr. (Be fb fur gubhtug ng gur gvzr…)
Ohssl punatrq n ybg nsgre ure rkcrevrapr jvgu Natry – va frnfba 2 fur jnagrq terng cnffvba naq ebznapr, ohg nsgre ure genhzn jvgu Natry fur orpnzr yrff vapyvarq gb gnxr rzbgvbany evfxf (be engure, fur unq n erpxyrff nggrzcg gb ercrng ure ebznapr jvgu Natry jvgu n uhzna thl naq gur rkcrevrapr jnf njshy) naq qrpvqrq gung fur jnagrq n eryngvbafuvc jvgu yrff qenzn. Fur fgnegrq gb guvax gung erny ybir vf vzcbffvoyr jvgubhg gehfg (pbagenel gb frnfba 2 jura fur gbyq Natry "V ybir lbh. V qba'g xabj vs V gehfg lbh"). Ng yrnfg ba gur engvbany yriry – ohg va frnfba 6, jura fur jnf qrcerffrq naq unq gebhoyr srryvat nalguvat, fur fgnegrq fyrrcvat jvgu Fcvxr orpnhfr jvyq, qrfgehpgvir cnffvba onfrq ba "cnva naq svtugvat" jnf gur bayl guvat vagrafr rabhtu gb znxr ure *srry*.
Yeah… I don't think Buffy was really ready yet either. I got the sense that part of the reason she wanted to have sex with Angel was because it was just the next step. Like she felt like it was what you do next since they'd been spending a lot of time making out and such.
I think it's realistic. A lot of people have sex before they're emotionally ready. I mean, Buffy is throwing herself into this relationship with Angel like it's the end of the world, which, for her, it could very well be at any time. She looks into her future, and all she sees is him, so why wait? So yeah, I don't know if it's the wisest move, but Buffy makes her own decisions and I think this is a realistic one for her to make.
This. Agreed on it not necessarily being the smartest thing ever, but at least they've vaguely discussed a couple of the consequences – as Angel said last episode, he can't have kids, so at least they're safe from pregnancy. But, well, Buffy is 17 years old and has hormones rushing through her system, and is completely in love with Angel, and, well, she could die at any moment, or he could – and they literally almost just died. So they're seizing life, and seizing togetherness, and going for it. Which, as you said, may not be the wisest move, but it's very realistic.
I don't think there was anything wrong in Buffy's decision. Contrary to expectations, it's not BUFFY's emotional unpreparedness that was the problem, but Angel's. Naq pbagenel gb gur pyvpur nobhg ivetvavgl, fur qvqa'g punatr, vg jnf ure oblsevraq gung haqrejrag n genafsbezngvba. Juvpu fur pregnvayl pbhyqa'g unir cerqvpgrq ng gur gvzr.
Vs nalbar fubhyq unir xabja gung gur phefr pbhyq or oebxra vg jnf Natry, ur unq n praghel gb vairfgvtngr gur phefr naq svaq bhg jung gur qnatref jrer.
Oh, realistic, yes! I'm not trying to criticize the writing. Just commenting on Buffy's state of mind.
awwww Giles is so adorable! I want him at all my parties
Annnd, here comes the pony:
<img src="http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k203/kitsune451/mlp_sethgreen.jpg" />
You know, it was great the first time. After seeing it in every freaking comments section for every freaking Buffy review since Oz first appeared? Not so much. Please stop.
And you can lighten up and scroll past, you do know that, right?
Hey, you're perfectly within your rights to do so. It's just really starting to bother me, and I figured it didn't hurt to at least ask.
If you use firefox, I heartily recommend just adblocking the specific images if they bother you, 's what I did.
Huh, I didn't think of that. Yeah, that'll work. (I've been using Firefox for a pretty long time, and yet I'm still not really used to the whole add-on thing.)
THANK YOU! I forgot I could do that. 🙂
and as soon as we know she’s Romani, Jenny is used for traitor shots and sinister mood setting. awesome writing, you writers obviously went to the writings school of good writing
YES I'm glad it's not just me.
I couldn't handle the romance the first time around but Sarah acts the shit out of it.
Vyylevn vf n zhpu orggre fzhes
Vg'f gehr.
Definitely not just you!
And oh, I don't want to diss SMG's acting at all, I'm just not one for this kind of dramatic romance, I guess.
I'm definitely the same.
It's just so melodramatic. So very Lifetime Network. Blerg.
I prefer my romance to be snarky and sarcastic.
"also, if you can’t actually say "sex", you shouldn’t have sex "
The fact that you call it pop-pop tells me that you're not ready.
Pop what, Karen? Pop what?!
yes you said "date" see now you are allowed to have one
Hee hee hee
awesome writing, you writers obviously went to the writings school of good writing
I love your italicized asides
Giles with that noisemaker is too cute.
– yeah, it’s touching and stuff, but this romance bull is getting on my nerves (sorry, it does! after having seen this scene 20 times it loses its touchingness)
Is this about the departure scene? Knowing that Angel doesn't actually leave always takes all the tension out of it for me. I'm like "Yeah, yeah, get on with it."
And I love putting stuff in italics 😀
He is! And since I learnt how to gif two days ago this was a perfect opportunity
Yeah, that particular one's the departure scene. It just. Goes. On. And. On.
(Plus, I'm not too big on romance-and-woe-y talking, I guess.)
If you use the "Gypsy curse" plot device you have officially earned my Eternal Side-eye because the concept simply cannot be pulled off in a way that is not validating centuries of harmful stereotypes. I mean what's next, the fucking evil eye? Baby-stealing?
so, i sat down to watch "surprise" last night and take some notes, and i found that i was having a difficult time of it. i guess i am one of those people that find it much more tough to express themselves about things that are close to them. i could blab all day about "the pack" or "bad eggs", but coming up with something to say about this one was much harder.
when i think of buffy, i think of "surprise" naq "vaabprapr" (juvpu jr jvyy, bs pbhefr, trg gb gbzbeebj). this, to me, is quintessential btvs.
starting off with a dream sequence aka my favorite thing? check. dream imagery is so much fun to decipher. i get, from this, that buffy sees her relationship with angel as ephemeral. she's so scared that he will disappear, that he will be killed. and no dream is complete without a reference to monkey pants, in french, no less. knowing that buffy was not privy to this conversation between oz and willow, this would seem to indicate that this is no orinary dream. this may well be a premonition of things to come.
buffy and angel makeout some more. swoon. i love them. no shame.
this little scene between oz and willow is up there for me. he's charming. she's cute. only willow could pull off that dreadful hat. "i said date." YOU FILL UP MY HEART.
things are getting weird between xander and cordelia. he obviously wants more. it seems like she might return the feelings, but cordelia is a hard nut to crack. it's easier for her to fall back on being mean to him than to fess up to her growing feelings for this "loser".
so, jenny is of the romani. that just happened. she's secretly been keeping an eye on angel but why? stay tuned.
how great is juliet landau in this episode? drusilla at full strength is a delight to behold. "DO IT AGAIN! DO IT AGAIN!" she's so….DIABOLICAL. and spike with burn makeup? STILL HOT.
all right, let's get to to the heart of this episode: buffy and angel. faced with the prospect of having to be separated for an extended and uncertain amount of time, their feeligs for each other come out in full force. angel gives her THE RING and tells her the thing she is most desperate to hear and the thing which he has tried so hard to keep to himself: "i love you". i know their relationship can be seen as angsty and immature. i get that, i do, but i just couldn't care less. their love for each other moves me, and it breaks my heart, and i like it. I WANT MORE. after narrowly escaping the judge, spike, and dru, they run (through the rain, obvs) back to angel's "lair" where they find that they can no longer hold off the inevitable. they're like magnets…or something. look, there's GRAVITY INVOLVED HERE. their actions are rash and ill-advised, but sometimes love is like that. and lust, for that matter. there's CONSUMATION and YES and then UH OH WTF IS WRONG WITH ANGEL?!?!?!
who wouldn't tune in next week? on a new night and time? i know 13-year-old me did.
quick things:
brian thompson, the actor who played luke in the opening two-parter of season 1, has now returned to play the judge aka the big smurf. evidently it's because they were in a rush. they knew he could do the part justice, and they already had a mold of his face, making the construction of his costume easier.
buffy wears THE GREEN PANTS and THE GIRAFFE PANTS in the same episode. *shakes head*
It wasn't even tuning in next week. This episode aired on Monday and the next one was the very next day on Tuesday. It was glorious.
She also wore the giraffe pants back in Reptile Boy, when she was trying to do mature things before she was really ready to handle them emotionally. There's symbolism here. I just don't know how it relates to the giraffe
REALLY? i don't remember back that far. well, with that much detail. i just know i watched it!
I have specifically been on the lookout for those pants on this rewatch.
ha! not about the pants! about when it aired 🙂
that is a nice connection, though. that the pants appeared in an ep about buffy trying too hard to grow up.
haha, oh misunderstanding.
I remember this "epic two night event" being advertised because I so obsessed with Buffy at the time and I got two episodes in one week!
i remember eating dinner/ doing my homework and watching buffy when i was in middle school 🙂 that's one of the reasons that i am so attached to this season. i watched 4-7 much, much later, in my 20's.
That was the episode where she was trying to be immature, though. Part of the whole theme was that she was sixteen going on forty, so she did something immature, quite explicitly when she said she was tired of being mature and had the drugged drink. It wasn't one of the guys telling her the drink was for grownups that got her to drink it.
She's, uh… trying to be metaphorically TALLER than she is, and giraffes are tall?
That's all I got.
Gravity. No one watch this who hasn't watched everything in the Buffyverse.
[youtube JBnaXQDXlWA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBnaXQDXlWA youtube]
god, i am SUCH A SAP. if i were not at work there might have bean some tears.
Oh god, I'm crying. This is beautiful and sad and I love that song so much.
Thanks for posting this, I can never get enough of fan vids.
This song!! It never fails to make me cry. Particularly because of this interpretation they did of it on So You Think You Can Dance representing addiction.
[youtube _48OKZqYzHM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_48OKZqYzHM youtube]
gorgeous! i love this show. i am a former dancer (i was never this good), so i really appreciate this show, compared to a lot of the other reality crap out there.
LMAO I watch too much community to not find this hilarious.
BEHOLD:
<img src="http://www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/albums/Series/Buffy/Buf_S2/Buf_213surprise/Suprise709.jpg" width="432" height="324" />
I give you the fact that Buffy's clothes are terrible, but I really love her hair here.
<img src="http://www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/albums/Series/Buffy/Buf_S2/Buf_213surprise/Suprise626.jpg" width="432" height="324" />
Okay, this first part of the dream they totally get right for a dream sequence: I have actually had dreams where I start out in one place and then somehow end up in another, exactly like what happens here.
Ugh, I really hate the trope of a man shutting a woman up by kissing her like this. Bugs the everloving crap out of me. Angel is already dismissing her fears and then he pulls that. Not a fan of this scene at all.
Willow and Oz are so adorable. <3
Yeah, ew, I'm with Jenny on this. WTF, Xander. Keep your hands to yourself!
WHOA. Jenny is… whoa.
LOL ILU, Oz. "That pretty much sums it up." And the "actually, it explains a lot" line is fantastic too.
Sunnydale has DOCKS now??? This town makes no sense at all.
Drusilla's kind of scary now that she's fully restored. And now it's Spike telling her to hold back because it's more useful than outright killing someone. Yep, total role reversal.
I am so incredibly massively superlatively grossed out by Xander's twisted fantasy that he outlines for Willow. Who the fuck actually fantasizes about their friend, the person they're supposed to care about, the person they claim to love, being miserable in their relationship with someone else? Oh, a Nice Guy, that's who. Buffy chose to be with a guy that isn't Xander, so obviously that guy is a jerk he must rescue her from in "grand" fashion, which makes her cry. What the actual goddamn fuck. He's put serious thought into this fantasy of his where he rescues Buffy from a life of ~misery and drudgery~ with Angel and she cries because he takes her out for a nice meal. And he considers this funny and awesome. Not cool. Not cool at all.
I also don't like his snippy response to Willow re: Oz's reaction to vampires being real. What, are you threatened because she's now into a guy that isn't you?
Poor geeky vampire. 🙁
Overall, I like Surprise, but it doesn't inspire much tl;dr in me. I don't even know why. Maybe it's all the Buffy/Angel stuff, which I tend not to really get into. Also, it's part one, which means lots of setup, sooooo yeah.
Fhaalqnyr unf QBPXF abj???
Fhaalqnyr unf qbpxf ABJ.
…
lrnu gung jvyy oht zr sberire.
I am so incredibly massively superlatively grossed out by Xander's twisted fantasy
Do you want to drive the grossed out car, or do you wanna ride shotgun?
Shotgun. With a shotgun. So I can shoot at whoever wrote the icky stuff to do with Jenny (which I meant to write about, but that fell through the cracks because I've been all scattered).
Hmm, then we need to find someone with a driver's license; plus, I want to have my hands, free, too, naq n ebpxrg ynhapure.
Ooh ooh, I can drive!
Yeah, the setup episodes are harder to talk about. I just want to discuss all the payoff in the next episode
Obligatory ponybombing thanks to mention of Oz:
<img src="http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljmasuowCv1qim0iko1_500.jpg" />
I know that a lot of people here find it adorable and all, but I'll never understand the whole 'grown men who are into My Little Pony' thing. I find it incredibly disturbing.
Really? I've never had much interaction with self-described Bronies, but I don't see why it's any different from adults of either se being into, say, Harry Potter, just because MLP is marketed at little girls.
There are aspects of bronie culture I find annoying; I sometimes see the phenomenon cast in such a way as to imply, "this show is better quality than other ~girly~ shows because men like it too!" which, well, men aren't the only arbiter of taste, you know?
But disturbing is not the word I would use. I certainly have nothing against any individual man who likes the show!
I sometimes see the phenomenon cast in such a way as to imply, "this show is better quality than other ~girly~ shows because men like it too!
Oh, I agree with this 100%. I'd bet money that if the phenomenon were about grown women instead of men, it'd probably be dismissed as 80s nostalgia or Peter Pan syndrome, and there would be lots of sneery remarks made in the same vein as about grown women who like Hello Kitty.
I do find the way it's reported a little patronising, but have nothing against individuals who like it – it's not their fault.
The recent brony phenomenon isn't so much "grown men who are into My Little Pony" as much as it is "grown people who are into My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic." It's an important distinction, because MLP:FiM was created specifically as a show that kids and adults would like. Its showrunner, Lauren Faust, was previously known for similar adult-friendly "kids cartoons" like The Powerpuff Girls and Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends. Faust is also an outspoken feminist, whose "mission" upon being handed the reins (no pun intended) of the My Little Pony franchise was to make a show that DIDN'T talk down to girls like virtually every other piece of "girl's entertainment" out there, but treated them with respect and dealt with issues in a mature manner that embraced differing viewpoints and complexity.
It's admittedly still a show about ponies learning about friendship, but it's character-driven and clever in a way similar to Pixar films, which also don't shy away from the "family friendly" label while delivering thoughtful entertainment that anyone can enjoy.
(That being said, there are elements of the actual "brony" fanbase that are rather unsettling, to say the least. But that's true of pretty much every fanbase out there on the Internet. And it doesn't take away, IMO, from the fact that the show itself is really something special.)
"Ugh, I really hate the trope of a man shutting a woman up by kissing her like this. Bugs the everloving crap out of me. Angel is already dismissing her fears and then he pulls that. Not a fan of this scene at all. "
And Buffy then says she has to remind herself of who she is and that she's supposed to go to school and what she should tell him. I think it's meant to be disturbing. It's one of those subversive moments in the portrayal of their relationship that some people see as romantic while others see as creepy. I think there's a lot of that in the svefg cneg bs frnfba 2, sberfunqbjvat jung unccraf arkg.
Then there's also the fact that Angel finally tells ILY to Buffy only after he's drawn an admission of love from her (weeks, maybe months earlier) and gotten an assurance of commitment from her. And he always manages to make her feel like she's the one taking the initiative, including here in the last scene, jura va snpg ur'f orra bofrffrq jvgu ure sebz gur svefg zbzrag ur fnj ure.
I concur with being grossed out by Xander's Nice Guy (TM) fantasy. His creepiest comment so far, I think. But I love the way the show is exposing the silliness of NiceGuy-ness and those silly, offensive male fantasies. This one is even worse than the one in Teacher's Pet.
RIP poor Dalton. For the short time we knew you, you were bullied and punched by Spike, threatened to have your eyes gorged by Drusilla, and finally got burned to death by the Judge. Unlife can really suck.
Bu tbq, Natry orpbzvat bofrffrq jvgu ure hcba svefg fvtug, jura fur'f n ybyyvcbc-fhpxvat svsgrra-lrne-byq, vf fb perrcl naq fdhvpxl. :k
THIS! SO VERY MUCH THIS!
I agree with everything said about the Buffy/Angel kiss and I don't think it was romantic at all but I also get the feeling that Buffy had needed something at that moment to assure her that Angel was real and okay and the kiss served that function. She was beginning to panic about a dream that may or may not come to pass and, while there are probably other ways to have done it, she needed something to bring her back to the present.
Agreed on Dalton! I liked Dalton! Poor little vampire. 🙁
Ugh, I really hate the trope of a man shutting a woman up by kissing her like this. Bugs the everloving crap out of me.
YES. That is like my LEAST FAVORITE TROPE. On TV Tropes they call it the Shut Up Kiss. And I'm just like "NO. This is NOT ROMANTIC AT ALL."
"Sunnydale has DOCKS now??? This town makes no sense at all."
Yeah, they really put the lie to there being "not much town," don't they? I guess docks make some sense if they're on the coast? Are they on the coast? But would a town like Sunnydale have docks anyway? …Yeah, the town makes no sense, and I've just come to accept that fact.
Gurl ivfgf n ornpu, be cbffvoyl gjb qvssrerag barf, va Tb Svfu naq Ohssl if Qenphyn fb Fhaalqnyr qbrf nccrne gb or ba gur pbnfg. Bs pbhefr gura jr trg Pubfra fubjvat hf n pbzcyrgryl ynaqybpxrq pengre jurer Fhaalqnyr hfrq gb or fb jub xabjf.
Naq fb jr fgneg gur ybat genqvgvba bs greevoyr Ohssl oveguqnlf.
Oh, that dream is real nightmare fuel. (Shaal gung jr arire frr Natry pehzoyr gb qhfg, rkprcg va gur Jvfuirefr)
(Vf guvf gur svefg rcvfbqr jvgu gur Ohssl/Natry gurzr? V nyjnlf ybirq gung, V rira unir gur furrg zhfvp sbe vg)
I kind of adore Willow’s hat, she is so cute when she talks to Oz. “I said date.” I want to hug her so much.
A vamp in a wheel chair, now here is something we haven’t seen before.
I wonder what injured Spike so much, the fire or the fact that it happened in a church.
I love Dru here, she is so entertaining when full of (un)life.
(Ohssl naq pnef ner ernyyl ha-zvkl, fb tbbq pnyy Wblpr)
An arm in a box, what a nice present. (V ybir gung gurl ner znxvat fhpu n qrny bs gur Whqtr naq jr bayl frr uvz sbe gjb rcvfbqrf. Ntnva n erq ureevat sbe gur Ovt Onq bs gur frnfba)
V nyjnlf jbaqre ubj gur fubj jbhyq unir ghearq bhg vs Natry unq znantrq gb trg ba gur obng. Gurer ner znal jung vsf va Ohssl naq znal gheavat cbvagf gung funcr rirelguvat nsgre gurz. Guvf bar vf pyrneyl gur zbfg vzcbegnag, abg bayl orpnhfr bs gur Natry/Ohssl ebznapr.
Gur shgher Knaqre frrf sbe Ohssl naq Natry vf dhvgr fvzvyne gb uvf "ivfvba" bs uvf zneevntr jvgu Naln.
“Do it again, do it again” her enthusiasm his kind of contagious.
I was such a fangirl, I had a ring just like that.
I love the scene in Angel’s home, it’s so intimate and sad and just all the feelings.
(Naq abj V whfg jnag gb pbagvahr jvgu gur urneg-oernx rcvfbqr, ohg gung jvyy unir gb jnvg hagvy gbzbeebj. Bu tbq gung rcvfbqr.)
Bu naq zl gurbel ba guvf: vg'f abg "frk vf onq" ohg "unccvarff vf onq" va Wbffirefr ab bar pna unir avpr guvatf naq gur jbeyq vf shyy bs fnq.
Random thoughts while watching for the thousands time:
Naq fb jr fgneg gur ybat genqvgvba bs greevoyr Ohssl oveguqnlf.
Oh, that dream is real nightmare fuel. (Shaal gung jr arire frr Natry pehzoyr gb qhfg, rkprcg va gur Jvfuirefr)
(Vf guvf gur svefg rcvfbqr jvgu gur Ohssl/Natry gurzr? V nyjnlf ybirq gung, V rira unir gur furrg zhfvp sbe vg)
I kind of adore Willow’s hat, she is so cute when she talks to Oz. “I said date.” I want to hug her so much.
A vamp in a wheel chair, now here is something we haven’t seen before.
I wonder what injured Spike so much, the fire or the fact that it happened in a church.
I love Dru here, she is so entertaining when full of (un)life.
(Ohssl naq pnef ner ernyyl ha-zvkl, fb tbbq pnyy Wblpr)
An arm in a box, what a nice present. (V ybir gung gurl ner znxvat fhpu n qrny bs gur Whqtr naq jr bayl frr uvz sbe gjb rcvfbqrf. Ntnva n erq ureevat sbe gur Ovt Onq bs gur frnfba)
V nyjnlf jbaqre ubj gur fubj jbhyq unir ghearq bhg vs Natry unq znantrq gb trg ba gur obng. Gurer ner znal jung vsf va Ohssl naq znal gheavat cbvagf gung funcr rirelguvat nsgre gurz. Guvf bar vf pyrneyl gur zbfg vzcbegnag, abg bayl orpnhfr bs gur Natry/Ohssl ebznapr.
Gur shgher Knaqre frrf sbe Ohssl naq Natry vf dhvgr fvzvyne gb uvf "ivfvba" bs uvf zneevntr jvgu Naln.
“Do it again, do it again” her enthusiasm his kind of contagious.
I was such a fangirl, I had a ring just like that.
I love the scene in Angel’s home, it’s so intimate and sad and just all the feelings.
(Naq abj V whfg jnag gb pbagvahr jvgu gur urneg-oernx rcvfbqr, ohg gung jvyy unir gb jnvg hagvy gbzbeebj. Bu tbq gung rcvfbqr.)
Bu naq zl gurbel ba guvf: vg'f abg "frk vf onq" ohg "unccvarff vf onq" va Wbffirefr ab bar pna unir avpr guvatf naq gur jbeyq vf shyy bs fnq.
I've always wondered why Spike was SO injured and needed a wheelchair. It never really made sense to me, and I just wrote it off as having something to do with the ritual they were attempting. But, hey, a burning church fell on him! Thank you for pointing that out! That makes so much sense and I feel really stupid now.
I just got the idea after watching "What's my line" when Buffy throws incense at the organ, that falls on Spike.
He is practically buried under holy items.
Which begs the question: Would atheist vamps react the same way to crosses and holy water?
Jryy, Wrjvfu Jvyybj qbrf. Fb lrf.
I spent a whole lot of time fanwanking around with this and ultimately decided that back in the day a Pope caught wind of vampires and used some magics to infuse crosses and holy water and such with special anti-vampire powers so that they would work on all vampires.
V unq n fvzvyne sna-jnax vqrn: Jr frr yngre gur ivfvbaf Pbel naq Qblyr unir sbe gur tbbq fvqr fraq ol gur gur CGO. Fb znlor gur Cbjref gung Or vagresrerq ba orunys bs gur uhznaf naq onynaprq bhg gur cbjre, ol jrnxravat gur qrzbaf, fb Fynlref unq n svtugvat punapr.
Nqnzf cerggl zhpu fubjf gung zbfg yvzvgngvbaf sbe inzcf ner fvzcyl ebbgrq va srne, fb znlor vg jbexrq ba inzc-Jvyybj orpnhfr fur gubhtug vg jbhyq.
This is why I like vampire lore that either ignores the religious artefacts thing all together or – my favourite – has any symbol of faith hurt them.
Jnfa'g gurer n snajnax fbzrjurer nobhg ubj Puevfgvnavgl fgbyr gur flzobyf sebz fbzrjurer ryfr? Fb gurl flzobyf uheg inzcverf, naq Puevfgvnavgl pbbcgrq gurz ORPNHFR bs gung.
In the Buffyverse, it seems that crosses and holy water are anathema to vampires no matter what their religious persuasion. And you never see them using, say, a Star of David to ward off vamps. It's a bit Christian-centric.
Two takes I really like on this concept: One is spoilery for a future Mark Reads Project: [V'z cerggl fher guvf vf va bar bs gur Qvfpjbeyq obbxf jvgu gur inzcverf. Gur vqrn vf gung NALGUVAT pna ybbx yvxr n eryvtvbhf flzoby, orpnhfr fbzrbar, fbzrjurer unf n eryvtvba gung hfrf gung flzoby, fb gur inzcf trg nyy sernxrq bhg naq fgneg frrvat eryvtvbhf flzobyf rireljurer.]
The other is from Scott Westerfeld's Peeps, which despite its ridiculous title is one of my favorite books about vampires. In that one, whatever the vampire held dear in their human life becomes repulsive to them after they become a vampire. It just happened that around the time people were writing down vampire lore, most of the vampires they were writing about had been Christian. So the main character hunts down a vampire and makes sure to bring along some Elvis figurines, because this particular vampire was an Elvis stan in life. It's pretty great.
Tung'f va Pnecr Whthyhz; gur sngure inzcver genvaf uvf xvqf gb birepbzr gurve jrnxarffrf guebhtu jvyycbjre naq va gur cebprff grnpurf gurz nobhg nyy xvaqf bs eryvtvbhf flzobyf, naq gura Tenaal Jrngurejnk erirefrf gur rssrpgf bs gung…
Bar bs gur srj cnegf bs Pnecr Whthyhz V yvxr, npghnyyl.
It isn't the first episode with the theme, I've been noticing it a lot.
Spike got an organ dropped onto his head, neck, and back.
"Gur shgher Knaqre frrf sbe Ohssl naq Natry vf dhvgr fvzvyne gb uvf "ivfvba" bs uvf zneevntr jvgu Naln."
Arng punenpgre qrgnvy.
I'm going with church… getting nearly beaten to vampire death with church pieces…
Stop reminding me that Uryy’f Oryyf happened.
Vg'f qrsvavgryl abg n "frk vf onq" zrffntr orpnhfr gur ernfba Natry ybfrf uvf fbhy vf orpnhfr ur'f "gehyl unccl" naq gung'f arire n onq guvat! V inthryl erpnyy ernqvat fbzrguvat n juvyr ntb jurer Wbff jnf gnyxvat nobhg guvf gjb-cnegre (vg orvat uvf snibevgr naq nyy gur sernxvat znfbpuvfg) jurer ur fnvq gung Natry'f genafsbezngvba vagb Natryhf jnf fhccbfrq gb rzobql gung pyvpur jurer n thl pbmvrf hc gb n tvey, trgf ure gb gehfg uvz, fyrrcf jvgu ure, naq gura qhzcf ure. Pna'g erzrzore jurer V ernq gung gubhtu…
Rkprcg gura gurl qb gung yvgrenyyl jvgu Cnexre…juvpu, jul qvq gurl arrq gb qb vg gjvpr?
Valid point, I don't know!
V qba'g guvax ur'f fnlvat gung unccvarff vf onq urer. Whfg gung yvsr vf uneq naq jr unir gb gel gb svaq n jnl gb znarhire guebhtu vg jvgu bhe sevraqf. Gur jubyr frk guvat vf whfg gung fbzrgvzrf crbcyr nera'g jub lbh guvax gurl jrer, naq cebzvfrf ner oebxra. Fuvg snyyf guebhtu. Vg'f xvaq bs grnpuvat Ohssl gung yvsr vfa'g snve, orvat na nqhyg zrnaf gung lbh unir gb qb pregnva guvatf gung lbh qba'g jnag gb (xvyyvat Natry), naq gung rira gubhtu lbh fubhyqa'g or nybar, gurer jvyy or gvzrf va lbhe yvsr jura lbh jvyy srry nybar.
Unccvarff vfa'g onq, ohg vg'f abg nyjnlf rnfl. Naq fbzrgvzrf jr unir gb fnpevsvpr bhe unccvarff sbe gur crbcyr jr ybir.
"Gur shgher Knaqre frrf sbe Ohssl naq Natry vf dhvgr fvzvyne gb uvf "ivfvba" bs uvf zneevntr jvgu Naln. "
Naq gur zbqry sbe obgu jnf cebonoyl gur zneevntr bs uvf cneragf.
OH MY GOD IT’S BRIAN THOMPSON OH MY GOD IT’S THE ALIEN BOUNTY HUNTER FROM THE X-FILES OH MY GOD.
WAIT WHAT.
THAT'S NOT TRUE. YOU ARE LYING TO ME.
*goes to watch the episode again*
STAB HIM IN THE BACK OF THE NECK.
Just a note, Brian Thompson also played Luke in Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest.
The first time I saw this episode it distracted me so much. I was a kid and all "That Luke guy is back? Did he get a demon upgrade, like pokemon do?"
What?
LUKE is evolving!
Congratulations! Your LUKE evolved into a SMURF ON STEROIDS.
Vyylevn jnagf ure gvgyr onpx!
… Don't worry, the T-800 mk-101 will be along to kill him and take his clothes soon, back in 1984.
erm, do I need to rot-13 stuff from T-1?
Trr, Znex, lbh fbhaq vaperqvoyl cercnerq sbe gbzbeebj’f rcvfbqr.
Abg.
FB GEHR! V qba'g guvax ur unf rire orra yrff cercnerq.
cerggl fher sebz uvf gjvggre ur'f jngpurq, ohg ur zhfg'ir jevggra guvf orsber ur qvq orpnhfr, gurer'q unir gb or fbzr sberfunqbjvat va gur erivrj bs jung ur xarj… evtug?
Lrf, nf sne nf V xabj Znex jevgrf rnpu erivrj nsgre jngpuvat gur rcvfbqr/ernqvat gur puncgre, ohg jvyy fbzrgvzrf ernq be jngpu zber guna bar n qnl gb svg nebhaq nalguvat naq rirelguvat ryfr ur znl unir tbvat ba.
Jung Wnzrf fnvq. Jura fbzrbar fnl'f "gbzbeebj'f rcvfbqr" gurl zrna gur rcvfbqr ur'yy erivrj gbzbeebj. Jr nyjnlf unir gb nffhzr gubhtu gung ur unfa'g jngpurq vg hagvy ur cbfgf nobhg vg.
Bu tbq, fb shpxvat gehr. V… V ubcr gur arkg srj rcvfbqrf qba'g OERNX uvz. Vaabprapr vf unefu nf uryy, naq jura jr trg gb Cnffvba…
V'z trahvaryl pbaprearq sbe Znex'f cbbe urneg.
THE PAGE WOULDN'T LOAD. I GOT A 503 MSG THING… it brings back memories.
Um… I always thought this episode was a little forgettable. Forgot this happened on her birthday. Weird thing to forget.
Spent the last five minutes of the episode doing my maniacal laugh as I imagined Mark's reaction. Not prepared. At all. Don't. You just aren't. Deal with it.
Tbbq yhpx zbqf… NATRYHF!!!! FB RKPVGR!
In case you didn't catch it, in the dream sequence at the start Willow says to the monkey (in French, because all monkeys are French) "The hippo stole your pants"*. ALL OF MY DELIGHT.
WILLOW AND OZ. "See, I like that you're unpredictable." BEST ASKING OUT EVER.
Oz is the most of mellow. "Actually it explains a lot." I love him so much *____*
Forever associating Claddagh rings with Buffy and Angel. And I really like that the "belonging" to someone is mutual.
Spike and Druuuu <3 Gah, I love that they can be in love and have "humanity" without souls, it's so interesting.
I'm focusing on this secondary stuff to avoid talking about bigger things because OMG SO UNPREPARED.
(*at least, that's what they were going for.)
I've never bothered checking the translation of Willow's comment. That's so great! The monkey makes total sense now. Haha. Thanks for posting that. I love finding out new info, all of these years after the fact.
Spike and Druuuu Gah, I love that they can be in love and have "humanity" without souls, it's so interesting.
Yes! This may be my favorite part of the episode.
thoughts:
Aly looks so pretty in this episode but THAT HAT. Also how many backpacks does she have? Does she change backpacks every day? The most important things bother me.
When I was in high school the idea of being with someone with more than like 6 months'age difference weirded me out so I get Willow.
Also Oz having an amp set up ourside on the bench at school is kind of huh?
Cordy looks really hot too.
And Oz now unfortunately has that shiny purple thing on. Poor Oz! He's otherwise so cool in this scene.
I can't comment on anything Dru is wearing because HOLY SHIT THOSE ARMS. Also I think that is Rasputina playing, I remember them because I am a wealth of useless info. Oh yeah and she got some killer dialogue too.
Poor Buffy and her mom blazer.
Buffy has way better clothes in her dreams than RL.
Also WTF guys how do you go and hangout on an open balcony over your mortal enemies and not expect them to notice?
Also if I was going to dismember the body of a thing that would mean the destruction of the human race, I probably wouldn't have put his separate body parts in boxes that assemble like legos.
Ron did the 'take me' routine better, Angel. And Sarah is the superior actor when it comes to romance here.
LOL at Angel's clothes magically coming on as soon as he runs out into the alleyway.
Finally ugh the whole world can fuck off forever for taking a character as awesome as Jenny and making her into a bloody awful ethnic stereotype. An ethnic stereotype to serve a plotline about Angel.
Anyways if they did it with anyone I would not be happy. And when she walks up to Buffy and offers her a ride to Giles is that supposed to be a misdirect so that the audience thinks she's doing anything but taking Buffy to her Party? They just seem to play up that we should be suspicious of her and do not want, basically.
Rasputina is playing. The song is "Transyvanian Concubine" which I listened to 1000 times because it was on the first Buffy soundtrack
That is Rasputina, it's in the soundtrack called Radio Sunnydale.
I had a hat just like that back in the day. NO REGRETS.
I'm still waiting for clothes I had to show up on this show so I can be all nostagic. I mean I had a leopard coat I was stupid and trendy!
They just seem to play up that we should be suspicious of her and do not want, basically.
THIS forever. Well, the whole paragraph really.
What? You're saying that this one episode overrides everything we know about Jenny and transforms her into a stereotype? Come on, Hass, that's what the misdirects are for; they punish people for thinking that. She is complex and conflicted––Mark said so!
The fact that she was well written before this point or that she's has some layers doesn't mean that she can't play into stereotypes as well-at the same time or after. Uncle on the other hand, is pretty damn 1-dimensional and not seen as a positive character, and if she's going to be tied into that, of course I'm going to look at how it's treated from then on in relation to that.
They do put her in Buffy's dream along with Dru though, so it comes off to me like, mystical magical people, vampires, like they're parallel. V guvax vg'f gbb rneyl ng guvf fgntr gb fnl jurgure vg'f fbzrguvat shyyl gujnegrq ba gur fubj be abg.
BUT, since it's been a damn long time since the last I've seen this episode, I was definitely really struck by the dream scenes and her getting the creepy music every time she showed up after that point. I definitely didn't remember that so yeah, I thought it was interesting enough to comment on, since it's treatment usually given for sketchy people that last one episode or other monsters of the week, and not actual developed characters. I'm taking these one day at a time, too, even though it's a rewatch for me I notice these things more than I did binge watching four years ago.
Not saying I'm not prone to hyperbole as well, but I still think it's worth mentioning.
V gubhtug Wraal qvqa'g fubj hc va gur qernz hagvy arkg rcvfbqr?
Wraal nccrnef sbe n frpbaq va gur qernz Ohssl unf jura fur fyrrcf va gur yvoenel.
Oh OK, thanks.
Fur fubjf hc va gur frpbaq qernz va gbqnlf rcvfbqr. Svefg qernz gurer jnf whfg Qeh.
I'm just a bit surprised that you'd feel this way; I don't see it at all when I watch this episode. Many other people appear in those dreams, and mysticism has been part of her character from the very beginning. Her uncle does look like he popped out of that one Steven King book, yeah.
But I thought you'd be throwing a party here––since Jenny's task is apparently to make sure Angel suffers! I bet you're just jealous that YOU don't have that job, ha,ha,ha.
Oh I'm still on team Jenny (rfc va gbqnl'f rcvfbqr, naq V jvyy or gvyy gur raq. Ohg guvf'yy or rnfvre gb gnyx nobhg yngre gbqnl.)
I just really hate that she's been thrown into this situation. I hate that everybody else being in it too, but she's the most directly affected by the problematic parts of it.
LOL at Angel's clothes magically coming on as soon as he runs out into the alleyway.
This entire thing cracks me up. He wakes up, either naked or nearly naked, with the feeling that something is wrong and he has to go outside. He takes the time to GET DRESSED, runs outside, keeps feeling like something is wrong, and then calls "Buffy!" DUDE, YOU JUST LEFT BUFFY LYING IN YOUR BED SO YOU COULD RUN OUTSIDE AND YELL "BUFFY."
I noticed Willow's backpacks too!
I can't comment on anything Dru is wearing because HOLY SHIT THOSE ARMS.
I know! They're amazing! They kept distracting me during her scenes.
THOSE ARMS. Drusilla is gorgeous. Seriously, one of my first comments while watching this last night was stating that Juliet Landau is absolutely gorgeous.
And Angel's clothes! I mean, he's clearly naked or not wearing all that much in the bed, and then ten seconds later he's…fully dressed? Did he take the time to throw clothes on? If he were wearing just pants I could see it as some sort of sensibility thing, but pants and a shirt and a jacket and shoes? Why?
And yes, that's supposed to be a misdirect, with the creepy music and stuff. Obviously, it doesn't turn out to be, but…yeah.
Hmm… just realized something out, actually…
Yngre va Natry, jr xabj gung juvyr ur qvq xvyy gur bar tvey, vg jnf ba Qneyn'f beqref gung Fcvxr naq Qeh xvyyrq rirelbar ryfr va gur tvey'f pyna. V oryvrir Qneyn'f rknpg jbeqf jrer gb fubj ab zrepl. Ubj gur urpx qvq nalbar fheivir fb gung Wraal naq ure hapyr ner fgvyy urer?
same thoughts. i'll be damned if i have an answer for that either.
V'ir nyjnlf jbaqrerq gur fnzr guvat. Creuncf gurer jrer bguref njnl sebz gur pnzc, be eryngvirf/sevraqf va n frcnengr pnzc?
Jnf gung beqre nsgre Qneyn gevrq gb onegre gurz oernxvat gur phefr jvgu gur zna'f snzvyl? naq gura Fcvxr cbcf uvf urnq bhg bs gur jntba naq vf nyy yvxr, gurfr ner nyy qrnq, tbg nal zber?
Pnhfr V xvaqn tbg gur srryvat gung vg jnf n engure ynetr pyna, gurer jrer ybgf bs crbcyr ehaavat nebhaq. Jbhyqa'g fubpx zr vs n srj znantrq gb trg njnl.
I can’t think of single thing to say about this episode without blurting out spoilers for part two. Except, I love Oz’s easy acceptance of the Scooby reality. “Actually, it explains a lot.”
His delivery of the line is perfect!
Qehfvyyn, Wraal, naq gur phygher gurl pnzr sebz, fgngvat irel rkcyvpvgyl gung Natry qrfreirf gur cnva ur trgf orpnhfr bs jung ur qvq gb gurve snzvyl naq Pyna
Jnvg, vf Znex haqre gur zvfgnxra vzcerffvba gung Qehfvyyn vf gur haanzrq Xnyqrenfu jbzna gung Natry gbegherq? 1) ubj ba Rnegu qvq ur ernpu gung pbapyhfvba naq 2) vf vg fcbvyrel gb cbvag bhg gb uvz gung ur'f jebat? Jryy, V thrff gur nafjre gb gur ynggre dhrfgvba vf lrf; Qehfvyyn jvyy trg zber onpxtebhaq qrgnvy yngre naq nyy. Ohg fgvyy. Vagrerfgvat yrnc!
Npghnyyl, sbe fbzr gvzr ba zl svefg jngpu, V unq gung vzcerffvba, gbb. V guvax vg'f orpnhfr Natry qrfpevorf Qeh nf gur jbefg pevzr ur rire pbzzvggrq, naq xvyyvat gung Ebznav tvey jnf gur jbefg guvat gung unccrarq gb ure pyna, fb gung xvaqn oyhef?
V xabj *V* gubhtug Qeh naq gur Ebzn tvey jrer gur fnzr crefba sbe NTRF hagvy vg jnf fcrpvsvpnyyl qvfcebira va…. na rcvfbqr bs Natry, znlor? V qba'g erzrzore zhpu rkprcg sbe Obernarm'f Bvevfu npprag, juvpu… jryy, hz….
lrnu. Vg oybpxf bhg n ybg bs guvatf.
Jr frr gur Xnyqrenfu tvey va Orpbzvat Cneg Bar qhevat gur synfuonpxf gb uvz orvat phefrq.
V pbhyqa'g svther bhg gung cneg bs gur erivrj hagvy lbhe pbzzrag. V nffhzrq ur jnf znxvat fbzr yvax orgjrra gur anzryrff tvey naq gur gbegher bs Qehfvyyn, yvxr ur jnf orvat znqr gb cnl sbe gur ynggre nf jryy nf gur sbezre.
ohg fur unf n irel cebabhaprq ratyvfu npprag…
Naq vg jnf fcrpvsvpnyyl fgngrq gung fur jnf tbvat gb orpbzr n aha nsgre Natry xvyyrq ure snzvyl va . . . . "Yvr gb Zr," V guvax vg jnf? Pbeerpg zr vs V'z jebat, ohg V'ir arire nffbpvngrq Ebznav jvgu Pngubyvpvfz, naq fvapr Natry xvyyrq nyy ure snzvyl gurl jbhyqa'g unir orra nebhaq gb phefr uvz.
gur aha guvat unf qrsvavgryl nyernql orra zragvbarq, nygubhtu v pna'g erzrzore jura rvgure.
vg'f whfg…nyzbfg fgenatr gb gel gb ivrj guvf fubj/ snaqbz jvgu arj rlrf. v whfg XABJ nyy guvf fghss nyernql, fb vg'f uneq gb ha-xabj vg. ohg v jnf arire pbashfrq nobhg qehfvyyn gb ortva jvgu.
It's Happy Birthday Buffy! Guvf ernyyl arire raqf jryy
Don't worry, Mark. The "smurf on steroids" image was already in my head
Nice little callback to Willow and Oz's flirtation in Buffy's dream. The french monkey complains that the hippo stole his pants.
Interesting that Willow repeats Buffy's advice to "seize the moment". When Willow seized the moment she nearly got eaten by a vampire.
Oz continues to get cooler. And he and Willow are just so adorable
Oz: I'm going to ask you to go out with me tomorrow. And I'm kind nervous about it. It's interesting
Willow: Oh, well, if it helps I'm going to say yes
Oz: Yeah, it helps; it creates a comfort zone. Do you want to go out with me tomorrow?
Willow: Oh, I can't!
Oz: Well, see, I like that you're unpredictable
Oz: Hey, did everyone just see that guy turn to dust?
Xander: Vampires are real. A lot of them live in Sunnydale. Willow will fill you in
Willow: I know it's hard to accept at first
Oz: Actually it explains a lot
The fight scene at the docks bugs me. I hate that Angel dives into the water after Buffy gets thrown in Buffy grew up in California. She has expressed a love of the beach. She is the slayer. I'm pretty sure she can handle herself. But Angel just has to save her. And in the process he lets the arm get away and then the Judge can be reassembled and none of this would have happened if you had just trusted Buffy's survival skills for five minutes.
As cheesy and overblown and melodramatic as their scenes are, they still make me melt a little. It must have something to do with how young I was when I started shipping them.
But then something's wrong with Angel! DUN DUN DUN
I absolutely adore that exchange between Oz and Willow as he is asking her out. ADORE. SO MUCH ADORABLENESS. (If only she weren't wearing that unfortunate hat. It is a bit distracting.)
Oz: Hey, did everyone just see that guy turn to dust?
Xander: Vampires are real. A lot of them live in Sunnydale. Willow will fill you in
Willow: I know it's hard to accept at first
Oz: Actually it explains a lot
Still one of my favorite anti-trope moments.
Oz/Willow forever. They are so cute~~~~
I love how when Oz says, "Actually, it explains a lot," he has this slightly puzzled look on his face as all of the weird things that happen at school and in town start to make sense.
About the docks scene: I think it is a natural reaction to jump in after someone.
It's not that he thinks she can't swim, but falling into water is different then jumping in intentionally, she could have been in shock or injured, but your right, it would have saved them a world of pain if he had simply concentrated on the task at hand.
I guess I can see that. I just think it points to Angel's protectiveness of Buffy and not quite trusting her slayer abilities despite how often she's proven herself more than capable.
You should remember that then if you pass next a river and see someone falling in. Don't dive helping them, I mean, they are walking next a river, they SHOULD know how to swim right ? Especially if they are children, children loves water and play in water, why someone would dive to help someone else really ?
V'z ernyyl fghcvqyl fhcrefgvgvbhf fbzrgvzrf fb V qb guvax vg'f cerggl ncg gung guvf vf gur guvegrragu rcvfbqr.
If you mean romance of Oz and Willow and Spike and Dru, then agreeing over here.
I was actually referring to Buffy/Angel. Should have worded that better. They're the ones with all the cheese. Willow/Oz are just sweet and perfect while Spike/Dru are sexy and dangerous and fascinating
Oh no I should have worded that better! I was just saying I don't see any other couples, for me Oz and Dru are the ones stealing the show this episode.
I do think this is easily some of Sarah's best acting, of what we've seen from her so far anyways. But as a couple, I'm just less interested in her and Angel.
Well Spike/Dru is sexy and dangerous but it's also over-the-top romantic, just like Buffy/Angel. Both of those couples have this overblown romantic rhetoric, "forever" love and so on. Even if the Spike/Dru one is funnier and more interesting because it's kinkier and twisted in a Goth-y, vampire-y way (making out in front of their tied up victims, "Eyeballs to entrails", "my ripe wicked plum", Dru slashing Spike's cheek and tasting his blood, "I had a dream, we were in Paris… you had a branding iron"… etc.).
I buy into Spike and Dru's "forever" love more because they have clearly been together for a very long time. Buffy and Angel have known each other for less than a year at this point (going off the airing schedule, since the series timeline tends to match up with that – WTTH aired in March 1997, and this episode aired in January 1998).
Spike and Dru are over the top, but their scenes never strike me as cheesy the way Buffy's and Angel's occasionally do. Maybe it's just because they aren't at the beginning of their relationship.
The docks scene puzzles me, but I rationalize it as Angel not being able to take those vamps on his own. They were having a bit of trouble before Buffy got launched into the sea.
It brings up the question, however, of whether Buffy can swim. It seems reasonable to assume that an athletic California girl would, but on the other hand she might have just enjoyed lounging on the beach.
Oz: I'm going to ask you to go out with me tomorrow. And I'm kind nervous about it. It's interesting
Willow: Oh, well, if it helps I'm going to say yes
Oz: Yeah, it helps; it creates a comfort zone. Do you want to go out with me tomorrow?
Willow: Oh, I can't!
Oz: Well, see, I like that you're unpredictable
This is just… one of the most flawless scenes imaginable
Oh, also? Who else was frantically hitting refresh on the main page today to see when Mark would post this on the off chance that it would be early because, oh my gosh, "Surprise!"
hahah I HAD NO IDEA THIS WAS ONE OF "THOSE" EPISODES. omg tomorrow is gonna be RIDIC.
Is this the first episode where the Buffy and Angel theme music is played? Because that is one of the most ear worm-y themes ever in the history of themes.
Apparently a strain of it is heard at the end of Some Assembly Required, but I think this is the first full debut. THAT MUSIC. SO MANY FEELINGS.
No, I've been hearing it during earlier ones, though I can't say when it starts showing up.
oh Mark you are SO not prepared, my heart is bleeding
MINE TOO oh my god.
OMFG I CAN’T WAIT I CAN’T WAIT I CAN’T WAIT I CAN’T WAIT
"I dreamt that Giles and I opened an office supply warehouse in Las Vegas" How I wish we could have seen that dream because it sounds lulsy.
Buffy's opening dream, so full of foreshadowing, most obviously with Drusilla and Joyce's moment with the plate but Willow speaking French to the monkey is a cute little callback to the animal crakcer moment with Oz (that I assume she told Buffy about at some point), naq Natry ernpuvat bhg gb ure nf ur trgf fgnxrq sberfunqbjvat gur jnl ur ernpurf sbe ure va Orpbzvat cneg gjb.
OZ!!! You're back! You're asking Willow out and looking so completely smitten when she's walking away, seriously his face just kills me in that moment. Taking the reveal of vampires completely in his stride. Guvf vf gur fnzr thl jub erfcbaqf gb orvat n jrerjbys jvgu "uhu" nsgre nyy.
OH MY GOD IT’S BRIAN THOMPSON
Kudos to the show for at least trying to make it less obvious that it's him, and that it's totally not the same guy as Luke from Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest, unlike some shows *coughCharmedcough* that just didn't bother.
"naq Natry ernpuvat bhg gb ure nf ur trgf fgnxrq sberfunqbjvat gur jnl ur ernpurf sbe ure va Orpbzvat cneg gjb."
V unqa'g abgvprq gung ovg orsber!
V qba'g guvax V pnhtug vg hagvy V erjngpurq gb znxr abgrf n srj jrrxf onpx. Whfg fubjf jung na rivy znfgre cynaare Wbff vf.
Okay, so has that "HAVE BRAIN TODAY?" poster always been in Jenny Calendar's classroom?
<img src="http://i44.tinypic.com/id7xco.png">
What is that?
I'm not even gonna feel bad about focusing on asinine details, because I can tell by the fact that it took forever for the site to load that everyone else has deep thoughts about this (totally exciting) episode (that still makes me squeal about Willow and Oz.)
OMG I noticed that too!
What the hell is that poster trying to say? It's really intriguing and I kind of want one for my bedroom…
I have no idea, but I read it with the same tone as "Got Milk?" for some reason, and I kinda want one, too.
I noticed that too. For the first time today. I am an eagle-eyed watcher >.<
Actually it kind of reminded me of Xander's line: "To read makes our…speaking English…good."
that almost sounded like a Yoda-ism.
That is a wonderful detail to focus on.
The "HAVE BRAIN TODAY?" poster caused much laughter when I was watching Buffy with my girlfriend over break. You see it in quite a few episodes, though I don't remember its first appearance exactly…
Hah. Never noticed that!
I bet Joss came up with that poster himself. It feels like a Joss Whedon thing.
I was gonna say, that sounds like a Whedonism xD I think he likes putting silly/off-the-wall things in the background as bonuses for the people who take the time to notice.
zombies?
Like a way to catch them out if they take her up on the offer of braaaaaaaains? Interesting…
not the smartest plan ever, granted.
I love the weird posters in the background in BtVs episodes. My favorite is "Zbfg jbzra nera'g nggenpgrq gb qrnq thlf" va Ornhgl naq gur Ornfgf. Vg pna or frra oruvaq Ohssl juvyr fur'f yrpghevat Qroovr gung bar fubhyqa'g fgnl va nohfvir eryngvbafuvcf…
lol @ "HAVE BRAIN TODAY?" I never noticed that.
AHAHAH not prepared ever.
V sbetbg gung lbh qba’g frr Natry xvyy gur jbzna hagvy gur ortvaavat bs “Vaabprapr,” fb gur raq bs guvf erivrj jnf zrg jvgu fbeg bs n pubxrq “OHG JNVG GURA JUNG UNCCRARQ ZNEX QVQA’G LBH FRR,” sbyybjrq ol n “Bu fubbg, gung’f gbzbeebj,” sbyybjrq ol n “BU FUVG V UNIR GB JNVG HAGVY GBZBEEBJ.”
I think I had exactly the same collection of realizations.
Natry xvyyvat gur ynql fzbxvat ol ovgvat ure arpx gura rkunyvat ure fzbxr nyjnlf fgehpx zr nf fubjvat sebz gur ortvaavat ubj rivy Natryhf vf.
I was sooooo confused by Buffy’s dreams at the very beginning because it never occurred to me that Spike and Drusilla could be dead. Sure, flying into a wall and having it crash on top of you would almost certainly kill a human, but I just assumed it wasn’t enough to kill a vampire. I think I’m starting to confuse my vampire mythologies.
Unpopular opinion time: it’s not that I don’t like Buffy and Angel, it’s just that I’m not interested in their relationship for whatever reason (I’m really not sure why). I don’t mind little bits of it here and there, but I was seriously zoning out during their scenes. Because of that, I thought this episode was kind of slow 🙁
Re: Drusilla – Buffy: "We never saw her body!"
This line has always confused me. If you saw a body, wouldn't you KNOW they weren't dead? Since dead vampires go poof into dust? And thus leave no body? Sloppy writing, maybe.
Yeah, that didn't really make sense. I guess you could look for dust, but there would probably be a lot of it since a whole wooden structure came down with them.
Yeah, they could have easily changed that line to "We never saw her die!" and been clearer.
I assume they assumed the fire would've done them in, or something like that.
Or they got some heart splinters from the wall coming down? Yeah, I'm gonna go with splinters.
I'm with you on Buffy and Angel, only I know exactly why I dislike them. 🙂
Well at least there was Willow/Oz. No I agree with you, just in case you missed me repeating this opinion ad nauseam. I don't care about Bangel. Or bangles, or the band the Bangles.
Whenever I read "Bangel", the Bangles start to play in my head. THIS IS WHY I HATE NAME SMOOSHES, PEOPLE
Yeah ok, I'll stop doing that.
But what's wrong with the Bangles?
Well, most of the time, I'm not drunk enough for the 80s.
The Bangles is a much better association than most pairing name smooshes, imo. Most of them sound like industrial cleaners or venereal diseases to me.
haha I was like bangle…bracelets? I will squee forever over Willow and Oz <3
It's not just you. However, my feelings for Buffy and Angel as a shipper could best be described as intense apathy. They are just outshone by every other romance on the show. The 'forbidden' aspect of it is never addressed, and the characters hardly treat Angel as a repulsive vampire.
I do not know why they assumed that Spike and Dru were dead, especially when they have been cautious and genre savvy in the past and never assumed their villains died so easily. 😛
Yeah, Buffy/Angel just isn't something I find compelling. I get the appeal of the Slayer/vampire forbidden love thing, but the actual execution of their relationship leaves me bored. I don't actively dislike the ship, though, I just largely don't care.
I don't really care about Buffy/Angel as ship because most of the time, I don't really understand why they're together. Like they just don't seem to really like the other person as a person. They just enjoy making out. And idk gura lbh unir gur snpg gung Natry ernyyl frrf Ohssl nf ubcr naq erqrcgvba (nf frra va Nzraqf) naq vg'f nyy n ovg fxrril.
Ohg V nz jnl zber vagrerfgrq va gurz bapr Natry orpbzrf Natryhf orpnhfr V pner zber nobhg ubj gung nyy nssrpgf Ohssl. Gb zr gung vf jnl zber vagrerfgvat guna jngpuvat Ohssl naq Natry znxr bhg nyy rcvfbqr.
. Like they just don't seem to really like the other person as a person.
Or like they're more into the idea of each other (hot older guy fighting his instincts to do good, the lovely young warrior who's something of an innocent because she's so young) than the reality.
This.
V arire ernyvmrq gung gurl tvir lbh gur frg hc gb jung unccrarq gb Natry/Natryhf VA GUR FNZR RCVFBQR. Fhecevfrq Znex qvqa'g pngpu vg npghnyyl.
I don't remember much parental outcry over Buffy having sex, mostly I think because the show just wasn't that mainstream at the time. It was popular on the WB, but it was still a Little Cult Show That Could. Also, gurer jbhyqa'g unir orra zhpu gvzr orgjrra jura gur frk unccrarq naq gur arkg rcvfbqr jurer gurer ner fbzr cerggl frevbhf pbafrdhraprf gb fnvq frk.
The only time I remember even hearing in the larger media about sexuality in the show was va gur fvkgu frnfba, jura vg orpnzr snveyl rkcyvpvg rira ol pnoyr fgnaqneqf orgjrra Ohssl naq Fcvxr.
Jryy, jura qb lbh rire frr crbcyr ba gi grnevat qbja n ubhfr jvgu frk?
V nyfb erzrzore n ovg bs nggragvba jura Jvyybj pnzr bhg va Frnfba Fvk. Ohg, ab, abg zhpu pbagebirefl bire friragrra lrne byq Ohssl univat frk jvgu na byqre zna.
Ree… gung jbhyq or frnfba SBHE jura Jvyybj pnzr bhg…
Unun… Fbeel. V xabj, V jnf fgvyy guvaxvat nobhg gur pbzzragf nobhg gur ubhfr jerpxvat Frnfba Fvk frk jura V jebgr gung. Rnfvyl qvfgenpgrq ol gubhtugf bs anxrq Fcvxr.
Actually, there were some strong reactions to it in some of the more conservative shows if I'm remembering correctly. I think I have a memory of something like The 700 Club decrying the show loudly for its perverse morality… but then I'm pretty sure they've said the same thing about McDonald's commercials.
You don't hear any outcry over all the teenager sex in Vampire Diaries, either. Or sex in any of the other High School shows out there, albeit none of them portray teenagers having sex with people as old as Angel, Stefan or Damon.
But there was some massive outcry over all the teen sex in S1 of Gossip Girl (they even used the Parents' Council or whatever warning for their advertising).
I think it depends on how well-known/publicised the show is. TVD is a bit under the radar because it's a "supernatural" show, which is probably why there's no fuss yet.
Was it just the sex in GG or was it the triple threat of sex, alcohol and glorification of drugs?
I think it was mainly the sex, but not so long ago there were advertisers pulling out of Pretty Little Liars because a character came out and identified as gay.
I think Xander's fantasy, while twisted, is excusable. Who among us haven't had fantasies that (were they real) would be deeply shameful? However, the fact that he shares this fantasy with Willow, with GLEE no less, is super skeevy. He doesn't realize how twisted his fantasy is, and that's more than a little unfortunate.
I agree, it's ok to have weird fantasies, but some should stay hidden in the dark corners of your brain.
I think he just doesn't have a filter between his thoughts and his mouth.
Yeah, the part where he says it out loud I would describe, at a minimum, as super weird.
Though it's still a rather elaborate fantasy in the first place. I can forgive just an idle (and private) thought here or there of "it would be nice to be with that person," because you're right – who doesn't have those thoughts? But his level of obsession with such detail, even if he never expressed it to anyone, is unhealthy, especially for someone who earlier in the same day directly expressed his desire to actually date another person. (I mean, really, does Cordelia mean so little to him that if his fantasy actually played out he'd just instantly abandon her?)
(Jbefr, gubhtu, vf va Gur Serfuzna, jura ur cerggl zhpu nqzvgf gb univat frkhny snagnfvrf nobhg Ohssl GB URE SNPR. Yvxr, frevbhfyl?)
I mean, to be fair, Cordelia did just massively reject him in a very upsetting sort of way. So I can imagine him settling back into his Buffy fantasies partially out of spite.
And I have had some very detailed (VERY, VERY DETAILED) fantasies that were more than a little distasteful and inappropriate on many levels. So I understand that part, too. But I always recognized that they were fantasies, and that by ever expressing them aloud or trying to make them reality, I would be crossing a million giant red lines.
And that's what Xander isn't getting… that his fantasies, while understandable, are completely inappropriate.
Ertneqvat Gur Serfuzna – V nz abg rknpgyl na haovnfrq cnegl va whqtvat gung yvar orpnhfr V crefbanyyl jbhyq rawbl urnevat gung xvaq bs guvat sebz n znyr sevraq. Ohg V xabj n ybg bs crbcyr jbhyqa'g. Fb VQX.
Ugh. YES. That was the most annoying part to me. Earlier in the day he'd been trying to get Cordy to be his girlfriend and the later that same day he's talking about how he fantasizes about rescuing Buffy from a life a misery with Angel. Clearly you have not moved on from Buffy, bro. So you really shouldn't be trying to get into a relationship with Cordy.
Jryy, ohg qbrf Jvyybj ernyyl zbir ba sebz Knaqre hagvy fur trgf gbtrgure jvgu Bm? V zrna, gurl unir gur fprar va gur arkg rcvfbqr jurer Bm frafrf gung fur'f gelvat gb znxr Knaqre wrnybhf. Gura ntnva, bapr gurl ner shyyl rfgnoyvfurq nf n pbhcyr, vg frrzf yvxr Jvyybj vf bire Knaqre. Be… ng yrnfg hagvy frnfba guerr. Qnzzvg.
And here… we… go.
<img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3257/2636605824_95ae1d24e1.jpg">
I love that Oz is now officially in the club. And so very Oz about it, too. "Hey, did everybody just see that guy turn to dust?"
Angel and Buffy are sweet, but they are so dramatic that my cold-hearted self often has to suppress some inappropriate giggling. I'm terrible at shipping couples like this. You know: forbidden lovahs, star-cross'd, meant 2 be 2gether 4evah. I still love the both of them, though. And I understand why Buffy is sad about saying goodbye to him for several months.
I always hated that moment with Xander and Cordelia at her locker. He tries to reach out and bring their relationship to another level besides physical and she totally shuts him down. She also admits that she's ashamed of him, which I'm sure does nothing for his already shaky self-esteem. Ouch.
Ur gevrf gb ernpu bhg naq oevat gurve eryngvbafuvc gb nabgure yriry orfvqrf culfvpny naq fur gbgnyyl fuhgf uvz qbja.
Fur nyjnlf qbrf guvf, gur inyragvar'f qnl oernx-hc jnf rfcrpvnyyl cnvashy gb jngpu.
Juvpu vf jul V pna arire or ernyyl natel ng uvz jura ur xvffrf Jvyybj naq vg'f uneq gb cvgl Pbeql, orpnhfr fur unfa'g znqr gurve eryngvbafuvc rnfl sbe uvz rvgure.
Lrnu, vg'f Bm V ernyyl srry sbe va gung fvghngvba.
It's not that she shuts him down that bothers me. She wants their relationship to stay within certain boundaries, she has that right. I don't think that by itself reflects badly on her because I don't believe women are obligated to be "nice" and apologetic, etc, about turning guys down.
THAT SAID, wow is it super shitty of her to act like he's something she's ashamed of. At the point where someone treats you like that, it's time to take a hard look at whether you should put up with it. It's ambiguous whether Xander wants any relationship with her at all to continue now, but he's certainly been willing to keep making out with her as she treats him crappily in the past (not that he doesn't give right back), and that's interesting to me given that he's so typically Nice Guy about resenting Buffy being with "jerks" and not with The Nice Guy, i.e. him. Hey, pot, your cell phone's ringing. I think it's Kettle.
I don't think women (or men) are obligated to be apologetic about turning people down, because of course it's your decision whether or not you date someone or continue dating or whatever. You don't have to be sorry about making your own choices.
Being nice is, I guess, a matter of opinion. I think Cordelia's manners here (and in other instances dealing with Xander) are incredibly rude. This doesn't excuse any skeevy behavior on his part, of course. But none of it makes me like her any better, or enjoy them as a couple. I have to admit, if I asked someone out and they said, "No thanks, I don't like you at all and I'm ashamed to be seen with you," that would make me think less of the person. "Nice" is not strictly necessary, but I do believe the world would be better if people were more respectful towards one another.
That's definitely an interesting point about his Nice Guy tendencies turned backward on him. It's odd, because Willow is kind of a Nice Girl in her dealings with him (she's admitted that she's waited and waited for him to ask her out without actually saying anything), and he hasn't gone for her. Instead, he goes for the girl who treats him like crap, and who he doesn't seem to like much at all. He is so messed up.
I don't object to the idea that women should be "nice" at its face value meaning ("not being an egregious jerk"), it's just that when it comes to women, especially women turning down men's advances, "nice" always ends up meaning "self-deprecating and/or justified enough for me to personally agree with" and that's an unfair hurdle, so I reject the "nice" expectation because of that. I think "neutral" is actually a perfectly reasonable expectation for everyone.
Agree with you completely on how badly Cordelia treats him, how he doesn't seem to actually like her much, and how screwed up the whole thing is. And of course, wrt Willow, she seems to have reached a point where she's at least willing to entertain the idea of moving on to someone who will return her interest.
And here… we… go.
<img src="http://static.moviefanatic.com/images/gallery/here-we-go.png">
And here… we… go.
<img src="http://static.moviefanatic.com/images/gallery/here-we-go.png">
OMG I was just searching for that image. Beautiful.
YES
This really is the point that Buffy becomes Buffy in the sense that I usually think of it
Oh, Mark. I was waiting for you to get to this episode. You were and are not prepared.
V pnaabg JNVG sbe gbzbeebj'f erivrj naq Znex'f ernpgvba gb Natryhf. Obernanm xabpxf vg bhg bs gur cnex va Vaabprapr, VZB. Gurfr gjb rcvfbqrf ner fbzr bs gur svarfg OGIF unf gb bssre.
Oz asking Willow out is the best scene in the history of all scenes, HOW CUTE ARE THEY.
Failure of Secret Identity Count:
18 + 1 (Oz) = 19
Ah yes. Angel's magical ability to find pants in any situation, no matter how dire.
Truly a superpower.
Not to mention putting on an overcoat. That takes forethought.
"OMG AGONIZING PAIN OWW BUFFY OH WAIT IT MIGHT BE CHILLY OUTSIDE I SHOULD PUT A COAT ON."
Well come on, agonizing pain and emotional turmoil is one thing, but catching a cold is another entirely!
Oh wait, vampire.
Yeah, imagine a vampire sneezing. (if they did get a nasal blockage from a cold, would it even matter? They don't breathe anyway, or they don't need to)
Vg'f uvf XVAT BS CNVA ovyybjl pbng – bs pbhefr ur arrqf vg!
Pfft. Lame superpower is what it is. Better superpower: Angel's magical ability to lose the buttons on his shirt in any situation, no matter how unnecessary.
"Lame" is an ableist word, do not use it on this site.
Naq uvf novyvgl gb jrne yrngure cnagf ERNYYL JRYY
After a certain thread in the FOTR review this morning, V abj jbaqre vs Natry pbhyq rira svaq cnagf va Tbaqbe. Abj GUNG jbhyq or gnyrag.
😀
FUCK.
THE JUDGE
Well.
Hm.
Season 2 is really good and now you will change some of the feelings towards Joss Whedon.
I can't even write anything in rot13…
If I say anything outside of this, I'll have to Rot13 my entire comment because SPOILERS but:
Oz's reaction to finding out the truth about the supernatural world is one of the greatest things ever. Bless Seth Green, bless his cow, for the way he played that. <3
Also: YOU ARE NOT PREPARED.
In addition: I didn't know that word was offensive, so thank you for the link. I will definitely check it out later tonight.
jryy, ernyyl abg cercnerq sbe gur bgure cneg.
"gur ybff bs vaabprapr" – qvq ur jevgr guvf orsber frrvat gur gvgyr bs gur arkg rcvfbqr? Vs lrf, gra cbvagf gb Znex!
I bloody love this episode. I love GIles and his party insistence and I love reliving this through someone else. Gbzbeebj vf tbaan tb qbar jryy zr guvaxf.
Oh Lord I cannot I even BREATHE right now. I am staying mum until after the conclusion to avoid ALL OF THE SPOILERS.
Bu zl tbq, V'z whfg ernqvat Znex'f pbzzragf ba Natry naq Ohssl gb zlfrys naq pnpxyvat urer. FB ABG CERCNERQ.
Whfg gb zbna nobhg zl crg crrir sbe n zvahgr…
V UNGR vg jura crbcyr qvfphff frnfba 2 naq gnyx nobhg "Natryhf". Orpnhfr AB-BAR va frnfba 2 gnyxf nobhg uvz yvxr gung. Vg'f whfg "Natry", ohg jvgubhg n fbhy!
*juvarf naq zbnaf fbzr zber*
this bugs me too. vg (gur natry/natryhf guvat)vf zber fcrpvsvpnyyl qryvarngrq yngre. zbfgyl ba fur fubj natry. vg'f nccyvrq gb guvf frnfba zbfgyl va ergebfcrpg.
V trg gung gur anzrf nera'g hfrq va gung pbagrkg va gur fubj, ohg sbe sna qvfphffvbaf vg znxrf vg sne rnfvre gb qvssreragvngr orgjrra rafbhyyrq naq fbhyrff Natry, juvpu vf jul crbcyr hfr gurz yvxr gung. Zhpu rnfvre guna gur Fcvxr fvghngvba.
Finally ! Mark watched this episode and of course the next one!!!! Still on my top episodes of the Buffyverse after all these years….
You can see the whole Buffy & Angel scenes as a metaphor of a wedding with the exchange of the ring and the love night…
When the WB aired this episode, they promoted the next one for the day after and then put Buffy in its historical Tuesday schedule. And the ratings were really good !
N ybg bs crbcyr guvax gung gurfr 2 rcvfbqrf jrer gur barf gung punatrq gur Ohsslirefr sbe tbbq, naq znqr guvf arj pbby fubj gung jnf Ohssl Gur Inzcver Fynlre, guvf Phyg naq Rcvp fubj gung jr xabj naq ybir.
Naq Jurqba n travhf rivy znfgre…
I edited this for expectation spoilers
No problem. I should have waited for tomorrow to comment. 😉
naq gura chg Ohssl va vgf uvfgbevpny Ghrfqnl fpurqhyr
"Qnja'f va gebhoyr, zhfg or Ghrfqnl."
I love the Dru/Buffy parallels, orpnhfr gurl ner gurer gb fubj gung Natry'f ZB erznvaf gur fnzr, jurgure ur'f fbhyrq be fbhyyrff. Ur'f bofrffrq jvgu vaabprapr, naq frrxf gb qrfgebl vg. Ohssl naq Qeh funevat gur fnzr oveguqnl? Purpx. Gur qernz qerff orvat gur fnzr? Purpx. gur rqvgvat jurer gurve rlrf zryg vagb rnpu bgure'f? Purpx.
Ng gur fnzr gvzr, gur fubj vf rfgnoyvfuvat cnenyyryf orgjrra Ohssl naq Fcvxr, sebz gurve nccrnenapr (fznyy obggyr oybaqrf, erq znexf ba purrxf va Fpubby Uneq), gb gurve orunivbhe (gurl rira fcryy vg bhg ol fnlvat gung gurl ner 'enfu naq vzchyfvir' – Fcvxr va Fpubby Uneq, Ohssl va Yvr gb Zr), gb gurz orvat fpbearq ybiref jub raq hc grnzvat hc, rgp. Ybir gur fgehpgheny qbhoyvat.
Last but not least. I don't agree that Spike and Dru have equal power; she's clearly the one who holds the reins. She tells him to kill the slayer, he tries to kill the slayer. She tells him to go and chant with other vamps, he goes to do it, even though he doesn't really want to. When Ford appears at their place, he doesn't eat him straight away. because Dru tells him no (he even asks her if he can!). She's got him trained.
And now for a little pimping of a nice Buffy analysis. Anyone interested in more reviews should go and read unpaidspophistry dot blogspot dot com
The guy does really good reviews, emphasising the philosophical/psychological/metaphorical angle. He's rewatching the show, but doesn't mention spoilers in the reviews, though there are some in the comments. He does them twice a week and the last one covered Surprise/Innocence.
I mean, sophistry. I'm clearly illiterate.
I love that blog! And his analysis of Dru as Buffy's id with Spike as her ego was really interesting.
I definitely agree that Dru has most of the power in their relationship.
Yeah. I don't always agree with him, but I love that he has a definite angle to his analysis, and it's refreshing. 🙂
Ditto. I really like being exposed to a completely new-to-me point of view of Buffy, even as I disagree with some things. He's obviously put a lot of thought into it.
V guvax Qeh ernyyl ubyqf gur cbjre va gurve eryngvbafuvc orpnhfr Fcvxr vf fb bofrffrq jvgu ure. Ur jbhyq qb nalguvat sbe ure ohg jr frr yngre, nf fbba nf Natryhf pbzrf onpx, Fcvxr vf chfurq gb gur fvqr yvarf.
Fcvxr/Qeh unir gur fvzvyne qlanzvpf nf Fcvxr/Ohssl, ur eryyl vf "ybir'f ovgpu".
Jryy, lrnu. V yvxr gb guvax bs uvz nf fbzrbar jub fgnegrq bhg Ivpgbevna, naq vf gurersber frkvfg. Abg frkvfg va gung ur vf zvfbtlavfg, ur vf zbfg qrpvqrqyl abg gung, ohg va gung ur chgf jbzra ba crqrfgnyf naq qbrfa'g gerng gurz nf abezny, synjrq orvatf, ohg nf cresrpg tbqqrffrf, juvpu gurl ner abg naq fvzcyl pna'g or. Ur gurersber uheyf uvzfrys vagb n jbeyq bs uheg, naq bayl jura ur ertnvaf uvf fbhy qbrf ur ernyvfr gung Ohssl, gbb, pna or jebat, naq unf vaqrrq, jebatrq uvz, juvpu, bs pbhefr, tbrf gbjneqf urnyvat naq fgeratguravat gurve eryngvbafuvc. Ohg gung'f n qvfphffvba sbe yngre, V fhccbfr. 🙂
IMO I do think they have a perceived equality. Someone making more of the decisions does not necessarily mean that they are in control. With Spike and Dru, it seems that their goals always intersect and they are just playing a game with everyone else by giving subtle commands to the other. At first, I would have said Spike was in control, but Dru's actions seem so deliberate in order to get him to tell her what to do. Now she commands him, and he gives in to her, but it seems as if he gives in because he wanted that to begin with. What makes me think that they have an equal relationship is that their roles have shifted but their dynamic is almost exactly the same. Maybe I am just seeing what I want to see, or interpreting what I want to seem, as their interaction is just so interesting. =3
I think the key word is 'perceived'. 😉 I don't know how much Buffy you've seen, so I won't get into too much detail here. But I agree, they're definitely very interesting. 🙂
Just in case you've seen it all:
(V guvax gur tynevatyl boivbhf guvat vf, sbe vafgnapr, ubj Fcvxr qbrfa'g jnag gur jbeyq gb raq, orpnhfr ur yvxrf vg gbb zhpu, ohg ur vf cercnerq gb trg vg qbar sbe Qeh. Naq lrf, gung pna or frra nf n erfhyg bs uvf qrcerffvba naq yrgunetl bire gur jubyr oebxra onpx/fynlre gebhoyr/Fhaalqnyr ungr ur'f tbg tbvat; be vg pna rira or rkcynvarq ol fnlvat gung ur qbrfa'g guvax Qeh naq gur Whqtr pna ernyyl chyy vg bss – 'jr yvxr gb gnyx ovt'; ohg gur irel snpg gung ur'f cercnerq gb evfx vg orpnhfr Qeh jnagf vg vf gryyvat rabhtu. Naq jura jr trg gb gur jubyr Natry/Fcvxr/Qeh qlanzvpf yngre ba; cyhf gur snpg gung fur pbhyq'ir hfrq gur fnzr evghny ur qvq naq pherq uvz jvgu ure oybbq ohg qvqa'g; V guvax vg fnlf rabhtu nobhg gur cbjre onynapr va gurve eryngvbafuvc.)
I am watching along with Mark XD I only seen Spike and Drusilla to this point, so my opinions are still fluid. They may change.
Lrnu, V guvax gung Fcvxr frrzf gb ubyq gur cbjre va gur ortvaavat, ohg nf lbh jngpu…Qeh vf ernyyl chyyvat gur fgevatf. Naq vg'f onpx naq sbegu ng svefg, orpnhfr fur pbzznaqf, ohg ur'f gur bar culfvpnyyl pncnoyr – ohg jura obgu ebyrf tb gb ure (naq Natry wbvaf va), ur ernyyl snyyf ol gur jnlfvqr.
Ernyyl, nyy bs gurz whzc sbe gurve fver. Fcvxr gevrf gb cyrnfr Qeh, jub gevrf gb cyrnfr Natry, jub gevrf gb cyrnfr Qneyn, jub gevrf gb cyrnfr Gur Znfgre. V jbaqre vs vg'f fbzrubj pbaarpgrq gb gur fvevat cebprff naq inzcver guvat?
"She tells him to go and chant with other vamps, he goes to do it, even though he doesn't really want to. When Ford appears at their place, he doesn't eat him straight away. because Dru tells him no (he even asks her if he can!). She's got him trained. "
That's an exaggeration. He goes to chant but then he throws the Anointed One into the sun. And the scene from Lie to Me has a parallel in the one in Surprise with roles reversed where Spike tells Dru not to pluck Dalton's eyes, being the voice of reason this time, and she listens to his advice. Also, va Cnffvba fur znxrf n srroyr trfgher nf vs fur'f tbvat gb uryc Natryh(hf) ntnvafg Tvyrf, ohg jura Fcvxr gryyf ure abg gb, fur punatrf ure zvaq.
Their relationship feels equal hagvy Natry(hf) fgrcf va naq jr frr gung Qeh vfa'g arneyl nf qribgrq gb Fcvxr nf ur vf gb ure.
Also, Spike didn't try to kill the Slayer because Dru told him to, he already wanted to since it's an obsession of his. Znlor ur fgnegrq tbvat nsgre Fynlref gb vzcerff Qeh, ohg gurer'f abguvat va gur synfuonpxf gb fhttrfg gung fur jnf gur bar jub rire gbyq uvz gb qb vg. Rfcrpvnyyl fvapr abar bs gur bgure guerr Snatrq Sbhe rire unq n unovg bs qryvorengryl tbvat nsgre Fynlref.
First clue that something was up with Buffy's dream? The French monkey. Willow says "The hippo stole your pants" to him in French, referencing her conversation with Oz at the end of "What's My Line? – Part Two", which Buffy didn't see.
Drusilla said her party was a coming out party, not a birthday.
Luke the vampire in the first two episodes of the series was also Brian Thompson!
Given Drusilla's history, I'd bet money that the "coming out" is as likely to mean the debutante kind of coming out (which, unbelievably, still happens in THIS century, with zero irony) as the other, normal kind.
What other, normal kind? I was thinking debutante-type. I think. Now I'm confused.
You know, the "Mom, I'm gay" kind of coming out.
But that's not a party, so why would I mean that? I thought everyone knew what a coming out party was.
sorry, I got tangled in whether Joss was using metaphors yet again.
OK.
Also, had Buffy seen Angel's ring before? The ring was on his hand in the dream…
He just got it for her, apparently, so that was psychic.
Part of that comes from Spike’s gift to her: The Judge. (Sorry, I need to do this: OH MY GOD IT’S BRIAN THOMPSON OH MY GOD IT’S THE ALIEN BOUNTY HUNTER FROM THE X-FILES OH MY GOD
That was pretty much my reaction
Joss Whedon before the days of JOSS WHEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!
We were so unprepared you guys. Utmost lack of preparation back then.
Also, the two-parter first aired on: January 19 and 20, 1998. ALMOST EXACTLY 14 YEAR ANNIVERSARY.
So nostalgic now, thinking of the days when we actually had to wait an entire WEEK between episodes, and four months between seasons. (and before we knew Joss Whedon was EVIL GENIUS JOSS WHEDON)
So do we think these are just a slayer dreams or is Drusilla also getting into Buffy's head with her vaguely defined psychic powers?
"I dreamed that Giles and I opened an office supply warehouse in Vegas."
naq guvf qernz vf abj fgenatryl ncg, nf va yngre frnfbaf Tvyrf ehaf Gur Zntvp Obk – naq zlfgvpny bowrpgf ner yvxr bssvpr fhccyvrf sbe fynlref. yby
BUT THEN THE LOUD SMACKING AGAIN. FIRE THE SOUND GUYS. PLEASE. It's so distracting.
"what if I never feel this way again?" this is just PERFECT teenager love. A
Buffy and Willow are just so sweet and cute about Buffy deciding to have sex and then the Willow and Oz scene where he tells her he's going to ask her out is pure adorableness.
It's a fun reverse of circumstances to have Drusilla coaxing Spike out of his moodiness.
"Do you like it baby?"
"It reeks of death."
ilu Drusilla. <3
My main problem with the Jenny plotline (beside the whole problematic ethnic sterotyping) is that it could have been so much more interesting if they'd put subtle foreshadowing in the S2 episodes leading up to it. There should have been small signs where rewatching you can see indications that Jenny knew more about Angel than she should have.. little offhand remarks to Giles about the wisdom of Angel being around, that she plays off as "off hand" and with only mild concern, quickly backing off when it doesn't get a favorable response. If we'd had that, then this revelation would have been amazing – one of those ding ding ding! moments where things come together and you're like OH OF COURSE, THAT MAKES PERFECT SENSE. Instead, it's just a nice character twist… but it doesn't feel as organic, like a surprise (but fitting) extension of the character we already know.
Oz's reaction to vampires is classic and fits his character so perfectly.
"I know it's hard to accept at first."
"Actually, it explains a lot."
I have to say, Jenny's pretty slick with the whole OH ANGEL SHOULD DO IT. I WILL HELP YOU GO ASAP. BECAUSE I AM A HELPFUL PERSON.
Poor Dalton! First Buffy picking on him, and then Dru smashes his glasses and Spike says she can eat his eyes out of his sockets. THIS IS JUST NOT NICE.
Normally I'd roll my eyes at someone acting like 6 months is the end of the world, but in Buffy's case there's a very serious exception to this, because her role as a slayer wouldn't have a very long life expectancy. As she implies, it would not be entirely surprising if she wasn't alive by the time Angel returned. That grave truth is what lends this scene its poigancy.
but omg Angel, you were going to basically give her a promise ring for her 17th birthday?! after that talk of babies last episode, I gotta say you're moving a little fast dude. (I guess there's that life expectancy thing again.)
Okay, I know this is all touching and everything… but note that if Angel had just taken off without having a scene with Buffy outside that long, then the Judge would never have been assembled and tragedy averted! THIS IS WHY SUPERHEROES DON'T LOITER WHEN EVIL IS AFOOT.
Xander's monologue about Buffy and Angel's tragic future, including Buffy's tears, is disturbingly detailed and probably should have remained inside thoughts.
"His touch can literally burn the humanity out of you. A true creature of evil can survive the process. No human ever has."
This has always intrigued me so much, because not long after Giles makes this statement we hear that Drusilla and Spike "stink of humanity" and could be burned by The Judge. I just love how Spike doesn't even care. "yeah, what of it?" We can see that Spike is not the type to be ashamed of who he is. And then The Judge easily burns away Dalton, who is full of feeling.
Consequently, this is a big mythology moment for me: Clearly not all vampires are creatures of pure evil. It's more complicated than that.
I really love Buffy and Angel's theme music. Every time I hear Alisha and Simon's theme on Misfits (which I also like a lot) , it makes me think of the B/A music.
wow, sex on TV that leads to pain and suffering. WHAT A SURPRISE INDEED. 😉
i always enjoy reading your comments.
awww, thank you! 🙂
BZT, gur fprar jurer gurl oevat qbja gur ubhfr vf fb ubg.
bu! v nyfb yvxr ubj wblpr qebccvat gur cyngr va guvf rcvfbqr vf irel fvzvyne gb jung unccraf jura fur ernyvmrf gung qnja vfa'g erny. rkprcg gurer'f zber pbyyncfvat gur frpbaq gvzr…cbbe wblpr 🙁
Gb zr gung fprar erzvaq zr bs gur ovg va Gur Obql jurer vg'f gur unccl Puevfgznf qvaare naq gur cvr qebcf ohg jr phg onpx gb Wblpr'f obql ba gur pbhpu orsber jr urne gur penfu.
Drusilla is obviously the best part of this episode. She's a portent of danger, she's sexy and funny and very enthusiastic about the Judge destroying people (sver cerggl). Girl appreciates a good decor scheme. And did I mention sexy? For some reason the little teasing thing she does when she's about to/pretending to poke out nerd!vamp's eyes is my favorite thing.
Speaking of which, evil hates books. So, just so we're clear: if you're going to raise the Judge, don't be a big reader unless you want to be deep fried.
Very disappointed in the writing for Xander. He was doing so good! For the last two episodes there were absolutely no slut-shaming remarks, no creepy Nice Guy thoughts about Buffy, and no weird innuendoes. And it was all torn to pieces! Damn it. Xander, hang out with Cordelia more. She makes you decent.
Cordelia DOES make Xander better, doesn't she? He hasn't annoyed me half as much since they started dating.
Sometimes when I look at Drusilla, I don't understand how every other vamp in town has not fled in terror.
<img src="http://www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/albums/Series/Buffy/Buf_S2/Buf_213surprise/Suprise543.jpg" width="432" height="324" />
I love this episode (although I don't think I've ever paused before going straight on to the next episode before. It makes me feel like I only watched half an episode…)
thoughts:
1. Oz needs to be real so I can marry him.(I wanted to add a quote here but every line of his is so fantastic I couldn't pick one…)
2. Cordelia is so cute. Please, please someone make a gif of her yelling 'Surprise!'
3. Ooo… deep themes! angst! drama! cliffhanger!
I created an account just to tell you how much I adore you and this page. Reading this blog has made my days so much better, especially since you started Buffy and Lotr.
Also, I have so been waiting for you to reach this point in Buffy.
I love this pair of episodes.
That is all.
I heart Jenny Calender for much more than shipping fodder. When she was first introduced, she served as a good foil for Giles, someone who was on his intellectual level but different. Knowing that she was keeping this secret the entire time adds new context to her interactions. She acted as a reliable authority figure and an easy-going woman, in contrast to Giles straight-laced persona. How much of her teasing, flirting, and mentoring was genuine and how much was a ploy to have them lower their defenses? I loved her before, but now she has complicated motivations. What do I call her? She is a protagonist still, but also an antagonist. Furthermore, she has two conflicting emotional stakes. I do think she cares for Giles, Buffy, and even Angel, but she has to respect her culture and destroy Angel….
…Okay, the Romani tribe raises a few red flags. "Buffy" has a bad record with cultures outside of their comfort zone. Most TV has a problem of depicting cultures outside their comfort zone. I am just happy that Jenny herself is a fully-fledged character. However, this may be because this wasn’t planned? I don’t know.
Buffy/Angel. I probably feel less for this relationship than Mark. In my notes, I put, "Angel's ring emotes more than he does." Okay, I am heartless. ^.^ Even though I am not as invested in Buffy and Angel as I should be, I still care if he dies because Buffy cares. She worries, and it has an effect on how she reacts to Angel and how she treats him. They did have sex, right? Possibly, she is so worried of never seeing him again. I am reminded of the target demographic when they switch the from small touches straight to bed together, sleeping, nothing too explicit. I think we are supposed to assume here, so I am assuming away.
I don’t blame Buffy one bit. Being the chosen one is stressful. She almost thought Angel would die. She still has Giles and her friends. However, they still cannot relate to her on a certain level. She has a weight none of them have. Angel is more apart of her world as a vampire than a normal boy would be.
I could discuss Drusilla and Spike, but I am too busy enjoying them. One thing I like to add, is that when Dru made the threat of poking out that other vampire’s eyes, I had fandom flashback. Damn it Clamp. Eye-gauging is not a fetish….
Before I finish, that Judge is terrifying, just the thought of him. He punishes people for their inherit humanity! That is it! That is so twisted and wrong. He already judges you guilty because of an intrinsic quality. On a tangent, his words proved that Spike’s and Drusilla’s feelings for each other were genuine by sensing their “guilty” sentimentality. I have an odd feeling about this, like nothing good can come from this. >.<
Oh, Willow/Oz! He saw vampires, he is cool with it, and everything is good!
I SO agree with all your Jenny feels.
Much though I think her interactions with Giles are adorable, I just love her as a character in her own right as well. She's smart and cute and independent. She clearly gets on well with the kids at school and she wraps Giles around her little finger. This extra stuff about her background has only served to make her even more interesting, and though it kind of makes me sad that she's coming into conflict with 'the good guys', I'm really interested to see what happens next.
I'm not sure about 'antagonist' though. I mean, what she's doing is (I would say) supposed to be for the greater good? Though she clearly has conflicting motivations, I believe she really does care for the others, and wouldn't ever do anything to bring harm to them. She genuinely thinks sending Angel away is the right thing to do.
Jenny <3
I think that she will provide conflict in the future episodes, and she has to battle herself and chose between two attachments.The series, "Angel" kind of relieves some of the tension with her conflict, though. >.< I am now curious how things are going to turn out. Hopefully, she isn't as much of an antagonist as I think. Even if that is the case, I will still root for her.
THE GREATER GOOD
[youtube yUpbOliTHJY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUpbOliTHJY youtube]
"Even though I am not as invested in Buffy and Angel as I should be, I still care if he dies because Buffy cares. She worries, and it has an effect on how she reacts to Angel and how she treats him."
Yessss. This is how I feel too. Like I don't care about them much as a relationship, but I care very much how Buffy feels about everything. ILU, BUFFY.
It kind of reminds me of how upset I was about Dobby's death in Deathly Hallows, it wasn't so much because I was heartbroken about Dobby, but Harry's reaction to it is what made me bawl above and beyond what his death should have caused.
I think her interactions have been pretty much all genuine and she'd as soon put the "spying on Angel" thing out of her mind. She hasn't even been writing to her family lately, according to her uncle.
Personally, I don't think Angel deserves to be punished or even held responsible for what he did as Angelus at all. When your conscience and moral compass is physically removed and you have demonic vampire urges and powers on top of that…how CAN one be or do good? They can't, which is why Buffy has a license to stake them like they're not even conscious, thinking things. If we were to hold soulless vampires to judgment that would be saying that we believe they have a choice, and if we believed that, then we'd have to judge Buffy for cold-bloodedly mass-murdering them every episode.
Thus, in my book, the Romani who put a curse on Angel are the real evil here – they, with their souls and conscious, effectively resurrected a human being and put him back into a body that had been doing unimaginably horrid things under demonic influence and then made *him* suffer for it. That's how I see it at least.
I mean, if they wanted to stop Angelus' evil deeds they could have just killed him – they didn't have to put his body's previous owner back in and torture him for what his body went on to do without him after he died. THAT is true cruelty and evil.
But I do love the moral grayness and attention that's being shined on the topic of "how far are victims allowed to go in the name of vengeance? When do they cross the line into being wrong themselves? When do you start feeling sorry for the bad guy?"
Angelus went beyond the evil of the average vampire though. His persecution of Drusilla and her family just because they were her family is proof of this. I think we've heard of his previous misdeeds before in another episode but I won't list them just in case I'm wrong. So they don't want to kill him. They want him to feel the pain that they felt and that meant giving him his soul. It's very 'toeing the line' in terms of morality but grief and loss can sometimes push people across it and they had the means to do it so they did.
I am glad, however, that Jenny does question the morality of this. She knows that Angel is not a bad person. He has saved her life before and she does feel guilty that she's punishing a man, who she knows has good intentions now. Tbh I just wish they'd told them of the consequences before it was too late as that would make the most sense but then I wouldn't be able to say YOU'RE SO UNPREPARED so I will let her off!
Interesting thoughts… Assuming that vampires truly don't have a choice, due to demonic impulses and their conscience & moral compass removed… then planning to torture this creature for centuries is a pretty excessive and morally grey response. Are we going to torture a rampaging tiger for decades? They can't help being what they are and obeying their instincts, and what would be the point?
But they do have a choice. They are naturally evil and demonic yes but how evil and how demonic is entirely their choice. There are plenty of vampires who, while they would all be scary and I would never want to meet them in a dark alley, just go around biting people for food and for survival like a rampaging tiger would be, using your example. Or they can be a badass vamp who relishes and gets off on their sadistic qualities. That to me has always been what separates Spike, Drusilla, the Master, Angelus (ie all the seasons' big bad vampires) to the average vampire. And that variation and diversity would suggest there is a choice somewhere.
Oh, I'm personally in the camp that doesn't even think vampires are demons with only information from the human of before. I was just saying, IF you make the assumption… (And also, IF Jenny's people or the watchers are making that assumption, what does that say about them?)
Just playing with the idea. I like to think about different possibilities.
(I think there's a lot of potential for choice and diversity of species and possibly there are vampires in the world that are laying low & mostly assimilated into human society and the watcher's council will never even know they exist. Maybe some vampires like Dalton, if they weren't somebody's flunky, would just want to keep to themselves and their books, occasionally robbing a blood bank these days and just not that interested in hunting down prey. I dunno, it's an interesting thought.)
But punishing ANGEL for Angelus' deeds is what doesn't make sense to me. Presumably, he died as a human and his soul floated off to heaven or wherever, then what was left behind did those deeds. So they bring the innocent soul/man back to suffer for what the demon did. That's what I'm not computing.
IMO, all the Romani really did was make Angelus go away (didn't hurt him at all) and have someone else take over and be tortured in his place. If they wanted to hurt ANGELUS and couldn't bear to merely put him down, well then, they should have hurt ANGELUS.
Ah, but the demon is still in his body too, along with the soul, they've said. So the way I think of it, it's more like linking up two computers so they function like one. Or, said another way, Angelus and the human guy are both part of "Angel".
When you are the meal, are you really a mass murderer for killing the diners, regardless of whether or not they had a choice to make you their dinner?
True… but then are the diners necessarily EVIL just because you're their food source that they don't harvest very kindly..? Or simply predators higher up on the food chain? Is morality just out of the picture and it's really about instinct and survival for both species?
I don't think it matters if they're evil. They're certainly enemy combatants in a kill or be killed situation.
Just bringing up the The Evil because it's terminology that shows up occasionally within the show ("pure creatures of evil" and such) and also in discussions about it…
I'm rot13ing in case of accidental spoilers, although there are no explicit details in my comment.
Gur guvat V abgvprq gur zbfg jura V jngpurq gur fubj guebhtu gur svefg gvzr vf gung ol zl qrsvavgvba gurer ernyyl vf ab tbbq irefhf rivy fb gur tbbq thlf qb bsgra qb ernyyl njshy guvatf naq gur onq thlf bsgra qb tbbq guvatf. V jbhyq pbafvqre fbzr bs gur zbfg rivy crbcyr va gur Ohsslirefr gb or Jngpuref, naq Cnynqvaf, naq rira, bppnfvbanyyl, Fpbbovrf.
Naq ubj znal qrzbaf raq hc ba gur fvqr bs gur natryf?
Fb lrnu. VZB, va guvf irefr rirelguvat vf tenl, vg'f bayl n znggre bs funqr.
"Thus, in my book, the Romani who put a curse on Angel are the real evil here – they, with their souls and conscious, effectively resurrected a human being and put him back into a body that had been doing unimaginably horrid things under demonic influence and then made *him* suffer for it. That's how I see it at least.
I mean, if they wanted to stop Angelus' evil deeds they could have just killed him – they didn't have to put his body's previous owner back in and torture him for what his body went on to do without him after he died. THAT is true cruelty and evil. "
You think that because you think that souled and soulless version of Angel are two different people. The Romani don't think so. And neither do I. And neither does Angel himself.
Gur Ebznav ryqre gnyxf gb uvz nsgre ur'f phefrq naq fnlf gung ur qbrfa'g erzrzore abj, ohg ur fbba jvyy, naq ur'yy fgneg srryvat thvyg nobhg nyy gur crbcyr ur xvyyrq naq rirelguvat ur unf qbar. Ur, abg fbzrbar ryfr. Natry srryf thvyg bire guvatf ur qvq – ur, abg fbzrbar ryfr. Abobql va frnfba 2 rire frrzf gb oryvrir gung gurl'er gjb qvssrerag crbcyr. Gung'f jul V jnf ng svefg pbzcyrgryl onssyrq, nsgre univat frra OgIF frnfbaf 1-3 ba GI, jura V svefg wbvarq gur bayvar snaqbz naq sbhaq n cbyy jurer "Natry" naq "Natryhf" jrer yvfgrq nf gjb qvssrerag punenpgref. V ernyyl qvqa'g haqrefgnaq jurer gung jnf pbzvat sebz.
BTW, the habit of calling the soulless version of Angel "Angelus" didn't yet exist in season 2. Rkprcg sbe Wraal bapr va Vaabprapr, rirelbar ryfr (Natry-hf uvzfrys, Fcvxr, Qeh, Ohssl, Jvyybj, Tvyrf, Knaqre) xrrcf pnyyvat uvz Natry. Fcvxr hfrf "Natryhf" whfg bapr – naq gb ersre gb obgu gur fbhyrq naq fbhyyrff Natry. Ur'f nyfb pnyyrq "Natry" va gur fubbgvat fpevcgf sbe nyy frnfba 2 rcvfbqrf.
Gur Ebznav ryqre gnyxf gb uvz nsgre ur'f phefrq naq fnlf gung ur qbrfa'g erzrzore abj, ohg ur fbba jvyy, naq ur'yy fgneg srryvat thvyg nobhg nyy gur crbcyr ur xvyyrq naq rirelguvat ur unf qbar.
Ohg jul jbhyq ur abg erzrzore vs ur qvqa'g whfg trg fubirq onpx vagb uvf obql? Vs ur jnf whfg Natryhf abj jvgu n fbhy, ur jbhyqa'g arrq gb erzrzore jurer ur vf be jung ur'q orra qbvat…
Naq ntnva ng gur raq bs Orpbzvat. Ur nfxf Ohssl jung vf tbvat ba, ntnva frrzvatyl whfg fubirq vagb uvf obql jvgubhg n punapr gb tb bire gur zrzbevrf bs jung uvf obql unf orra hc gb.
Yes, I definitely see them as two different people – or at the very least, two halves of one person. If everything that was bad inside you literally walked off on its own one day, with evil superpowers, and slaughtered a bunch of people, no, I don't think it would technically be "you" who did it. And if a bunch of people then gained up on the pure part of you, who was elsewhere at the time, that would be completely misguided and wrong in my book.
I mean, I totally accept that some don't see it this way and they may even be right, but it's very clear-cut in my mind and this has been my consensus for…a long-ass time. Lol.
P.S. I think the reason Angel so often refers to Angelus' deeds as if they were his own is because: a) he has the memories and feelings of it stored in his mind, b) it was done with his hands/body, and c) his personality type is one that accepts guilt for *everything* and (un)happily wallows in it. He is a broody pants and never one to make things easy on himself.
V qba'g guvax gur pnaba bs gur fubj nterrf jvgu lbh. V guvax gur fubj znqr vg irel pyrne gung gur fbhy jnf whfg n crefba'f pbafpvrapr naq gung gur crefba gurzfryirf erznvarq. Bgure jvfr n qeht jbhyqa'g unir orra noyr gb oevat Natryhf sbegu va frnfba 1 (2? gur rcvfbqr jvgu gur fgneyrg) bs Natry.
Nyfb, Fcvxr vf qrpvqrqyl *abg* n thvyg evqqra oebbql zpoebbql cnagf ohg ur *nyfb* gnxrf erfcbafvovyvgl sbe gur qrrqf ur cresbezrq juvyr fbhyyrff.
V'z gelvat gb svaq gur dhbgr ohg V'z snveyl pregnva V erzrzore Fcvxr npghnyyl qvfzvffvat gur vqrn bs srryvat thvygl sberire nobhg jung ur qvq, fvapr ur xabjf ur qvqa'g unir n fbhy ng gur gvzr naq gung'f whfg jung inzcverf qb. Urapr jul ur bayl "fcrag gjb jrrxf pelvat va n onfrzrag nobhg vg" naq gura zbirq ba. Natry qvfnterrq jvgu uvf zbivat ba fb dhvpxyl orpnhfr, nf abgrq: oebbql cnagf, ohg Fcvxr'f cuvybfbcul jnf ragveryl qvssrerag: abg uvf ceboyrz, abg uvf snhyg, trggvat ba jvgu uvf hayvsr. Vg jnfa'g npprcgvat erfcbafvovyvgl – vg jnf abg npprcgvat erfcbafvovyvgl orpnhfr bs gur erpbtavgvba gung inzcverf, cynva naq fvzcyr, ner rivy. Ur xarj ur qvqa'g unir n pubvpr naq gung'f jul ur qvqa'g srry thvyg (sbe ybat).
Nyfb, gung rcvfbqr nobhg Natry gheavat vagb Natryhf orpnhfr bs rpfgnfl qvqa'g rira znxr frafr. Ur qvqa'g *ernyyl* ybfr uvf fbhy, ur bayl gubhtug ur qvq, juvpu znqr uvz fgneg npgvat yvxr Natryhf naljnl – jung?? V pbafvqrerq gung n jevgre rkcrevzragngvba, vs abg bhgevtug syhxr.
Ertneqyrff bs vs Natry vf gur fnzr crefba be abg (V graq gb guvax bs vg nf fbzrguvat bs n zvkgher, gur inzcver unf gur fnzr onfvp crefbanyvgl ohg vg'f bja jnagf naq arrqf), 100f bs lrnef bs gbegher vf fgvyy abg n svg chavfuzrag sbe nal pevzr.
Vg vf pehry naq hahfhny, bhg bs cebcbegvba naq zbafgebhf. Sbe n crefba gb gbegher nabgure fragvrag orvat sbe rira n srj ubhef, ur be fur jbhyq (VZB) unir gb or cerggl harguvpny naq rzbgvbanyyl ahzo. Gb qb vg gb n crefba sbe qrpnqrf vf erdhverf n bs ivpvbhf fnqvfz gung V unir ceboyrzf pbzceruraqvat.
Bs pbhefr, gur bayl ernfba gurer *jnf* gbegher jnf orpnhfr bs Natry'f bja zvaq naq crefbanyvgl. Naq sbe qrpnqrf ur pubfr gb jnyybj vafgrnq bs qbvat fbzrguvat pbafgehpgvir, hagvy Juvfgyre fubjrq uvz Ohssl.
Gur guvat vf, gur nygreangvir vf qrngu naq tvira gur pubvpr orgjrra n fbhy naq qrngu, V'z orggvat Natry jbhyq unir pubfra gur fbhy.
Gur zbfg vzcbegnag guvat gur Xnyqrenfu crbcyr qvq jnf erzbir na rkgerzryl qnatrebhf guerng gb uhznavgl. Vg'f arire n onq guvat gb fgbc fbzrguvat nf rivy naq qrfgehpgvir nf Natryhf jnf naq gurl znantrq gb qb fb juvyr fgvyy tvivat uvz n punapr gb erqrrz uvzfrys. VZB, gurl qvq uvz n snibe naq V guvax ur'q nterr.
Jryy, nsgre ur svavfurq uvf uhaqerq lrne fragrapr bs jnyybjvat naq nggraqvat nfgbhaqvatyl snzbhf Ynf Irtnf jrqqvatf. V'z fher ur jnf fhssrevat greevoyl jura ur jnf rngvat crnahg ohggre naq onanan fnaqjvpurf jvgu Ryivf.
Ur qvqa'g srry thvygl. Ur gbbx erfcbafvovyvgl. Gurer'f n qvssrerapr.
Sbe ersrerapr frr gur ragver fprar jurer ur jnf punvarq va Ohssl'f onfrzrag orsber gur Oevatref gbbx uvz.
Vagrerfgvat ubj Fcvxr fubjrq sne yrff bs n fcyvg crefbanyvgl guna Natry (gubhtu fbzr) nsgre orvat er-rafbhyrq. Bs pbhefr, ur tbg vg ibyhagnevyl, jurernf Natryhf jnf phefrq naq nyjnlf tbrf onpx gb abg jnagvat n fbhy jurarire vg'f erzbirq.
Nyfb, V guvax Fcvxr'f nggvghqr jnfa'g "abg zl snhyg", ohg "vg unccrarq naq V pna yvir jvgu vg".
Npghnyyl, hayvxr Fcvxr, Natry bapr fnvq "vg jnfa'g zr" nobhg Natryhf' qrrqf, va "Nzraqf", ohg tnir gung hc cerggl vafgnagyl haqre gur Svefg'f nggragvbaf. Jrfyrl nyfb bapr pynvzrq gb Ubygm gung Natry jnfa'g erfcbafvoyr sbe gur qrrqf bs Natryhf, ohg gung sryy ba qrns rnef bs pbhefr.
Juvyr ernqvat guebhtu gur guernq, V erzrzorerq guvf Natry'f yvar sebz 'Nzraqf': "Ybbx, V'z jrnx. V'ir arire orra nalguvat ryfr. Vg'f abg gur qrzba va zr gung arrqf xvyyvat, Ohssl. Vg'f gur zna."
Fb znlor bapr gur crefba'f 'pbafpvrapr' vf tbar, nyy gur qrzba qbrf vf gb üore-raunapr gurve onq genvgf naq ercerffrq srryvatf.
Yvnz jnf abg gur avprfg bs crbcyr. Natry vf abg gur avprfg bs inzcverf. Jvyyvnz jnf fbzrjung bs n chfubire naq ybir'f ovgpu. Fcvxr'f ha-yvivat ol uvf ehyrf naq fgvyy ybir'f ovgpu.
I agee with you entirely. Va cnegvphyne, "Becurhf" bayl znxrf frafr vs lbh oryvrir gung gur crefbanyvgvrf pbzzbayl ersreerq gb nf "Natry" naq "Natryhf" ner, va snpg, nfcrpgf bs gur fnzr crefba gung ner cerfrag jvguva gung crefba ertneqyrff bs gur cerfrapr bs n fbhy (nf bccbfrq gb Natry orvat gur fbhy naq Natryhf orvat gur qrzba). Bgurejvfr, ubj jbhyq Natry or cerfrag va Natryhf' zvaq rira juvyr gur fbhy jnf genccrq va n wne fbzrjurer?
Ohg fubhyq Ohssl unir yvprafr gb xvyy inzcverf orsber gurl pbzzvg nal xvaq bs unezshy npg? Ol jung nhgubevgl qbrf fur pynvz guvf evtug?
Inzcverf ner fragvrag orvatf, naq ner pncnoyr bs znxvat pubvprf naq srry cnva. Nf fhpu, gurl ner zbenyyl rdhvinyrag jvgu uhznaf, hayrff lbh pbafvqre orvat uhzna n fhcrevbe yvsr sbez (naq gura jr jvyy unir ceboyrzf).
Nf fhpu, inzcverf unir nf zhpu evtug gb yvsr nf n uhzna orvat. Bs pbhefr, bapr gurl pbzzvg ngebpvgvrf, gurl fubhyq or chavfurq, naq creuncf Gur Fynlre vf gur jnl gb qb guvf, ohg rira gura gurl fubhyq abg or qrcevirq bs n punapr gb qrsraq gurzfryirf.
Ohssl vf onfvpyl n jrncba jvryqrq ol n frperg fbpvrgl bs bpphygvfgf va Ratynaq, jvgu ab zber (naq fbzrgvzrf pbafvqrenoyl yrff) zbeny nhgubevgl guna nalbar ryfr.
Fur tbrf nebhaq xvyyvat fragvrag perngherf gung ner abg bs ure bja trargvp fgbpx, bsgra whfg orpnhfr gurl rkvfg. Vg'f xvaq bs perrcl, vs lbh nanylfr vg.
V pna'g ragveryl nterr jvgu gung. Jura Fcvxr jnf eraqrerq hanoyr gb srrq ba naq nggnpx uhznaf, fur qrpvqrq ntnvafg uhagvat be xvyyvat uvz orpnhfr fur qvqa'g frr gur cbvag naq gubhtug gung jbhyq or jebat. Jura fur ena vagb n qrzba, Pyrz, jub jnf unezyrff naq vagraqrq ab znyvpr gb uhznaf, fur abg bayl qvqa'g uheg uvz ohg ertneqrq uvz nf n sevraq naq unq uvz jngpu ure fvfgre.
Bar bs gur guvatf Ohssl naq Evyrl npghnyyl sbhtug nobhg jnf uvf hanonfurq ungerq naq qvfthfg bs nalguvat gung jnfa'g uhzna. Naq fur qvqa'g frr guvatf nf "uhzna tbbq"/"abg-uhzna onq". Fur rira ertneqrq urefrys nf cneg bs gur fhcreangheny "pbzzhavgl" naq abg ragveryl uhzna.
You know it never bothered me, the way they portray the Rom in this series. Nothing about the way Gorgias look at us bothers me. You guys can be counted on for one thing, to get it wrong. Well my Uncle Peter did look a bit like Jenny Calender's uncle in this episode, he never sounded like that though. He was a very sweet man. Also the language is wrong as well. When I'm with my family I talk in a mixture of English and Rom. When I am with Gorgias and on the Internet I never use Rom. You wouldn't know what I was talking about. This is fairly common to all Rom, no matter what country you are in. You speak more or less your own language to your own people and you speak your language at home. Also no Romani girl/woman would be sent away from her family like Jenny is in the show, so it's like watching people in a fairy tale, they are not portrayed anything like reality, so shrug your shoulders. Because the last thing the Rom want is a bunch of outsiders really knowing us. We're not that 'colourful' for want of a better word. Also the European Rom were pretty much wiped out by the Holocaust.
Thanks for sharing this, it was interesting!
I agree, this is very interesting indeed. Thank you very much for posting this.
Thanks for the explanation 🙂 It's not a culture I know much about, so your insight is much appreciated.
I guess all those things you've pointed out as 'wrong' are part of the reason people around here get up in arms about it. They didn't bother to actually find out about Romani culture at all, they just wrote a blatant stereotype and made it do what they needed it to do to further their plot. Its all 'oooh look they're Romani and they do spooky curses and want revenge'. Its hard to gauge, as an outsider to the culture, what an appropriate response it to the characterisation would be, but give the other race!fail! in Buffy at this point giving the writers the benefit of the doubt is difficult.
Well the one thing that really tells is that Jenny is on her own. Believe me, NO young unmarried woman in a Rom family would ever be on her own. We are not shackled, but we do not go out alone, ever. There are your sisters, cousins, friends, and if they are not with you, you are in big trouble. The Rom are very patriarchal, a girl will always be a virgin when she gets married and we marry young. So Jenny's story was set up wrong from the start. You can't get upset over this, we never tell people our family dynamics.
I am assuming Gorgias means non-Romani? *a bit confused but trying to understand*
And yeah, the uncle's accent is totally stereotypical. Not everyone from Eastern Europe speaks like that…and, as you said, that whole group was very much wiped out by the Holocaust.
Yes, a Gorgia is a non Romani. A didykia is a half Rom. That's as far as I'm going. It can be funny though. Once we were in Louisiana and my mother and father became very ill. Hospital bills were mounting so my sister and I took jobs. Some Travelars, a branch of the Rom came into the place where we were working and were talking. They almost fainted when we answered. Another time my sister was picked out in a crowd because of her gold necklaces and earings. The oldest woman there knew what we were just by looking at us.
*nods* I doubt I'd recognize a Rom unless you pointed one out to me, but I do understand recognizing people from your own culture – I can spot a religious Jew very easily, and also easily tell the difference between a religious Jew and, say, a religious Muslim.
The thing that has always bugged me about Jenny's uncle is his line, "the most beloved daughter of your tribe." How long has it been since Angel has been souled? Why is a girl born that many years ago the most beloved daughter? Did she poop rainbows? Summon unicorns? Has no other daughter been beloved in the mean time? Whassup with that?
Mark, you and Enigmaticagentscully have tons more self control than I do. I have always been completely unable to watch Surprise without moving on to the second half right away.
Also, I find it funny how excited you are by Brian Thompson considering that Buffy has killed him once already in The Harvest. Now I feel the need to go back and look to see if you recognized him when he played Luke in that or Welcome to the Hellmouth. (Joss has always been a vigilant recycler. LOL!)
I would like to mention at this point that I have to sleep now because I have work tomorrow from 5:30 to 12:00…but the hot second I get back, I am throwing on the next episode!
Watching this one episode per day is the most difficult thing I have ever done. No-one has suffered as I have suffered.
😉
I am so with you on the "most beloved daughter" front. It makes me raise my eyebrows every time. I really think they should have either showcased what exactly made that one particular girl so special and revered, or just said that their curse was in retaliation for Angelus having terrorized the clan in general.
But to make it about that one girl, even though he had killed many other Romani from that clan, just makes no sense. What, were they all "oh, you've slaughtered and terrorized so many of us, and we were willing to let that go, but now that you've killed the prettiest and most cherished girl we've got – now we are PISSED!"
And then they passed down their adoration for that one girl for 150ish years? She must have been some sort of creature they worshiped or something. Maybe they thought she was the reincarnation of some deity – that's the story I'll be running with I think.
I'm pretty sure he meant she was the most beloved daughter *at the time*, not that he was comparing anyone since then to her.
Also a question/poll: are birthday beats really a thing that people do? Cause I always hear vaguely about them but I don't know anybody that's actually gotten them.
Birthday spankings? Oh, yeah. Big deal in my family. (for children only)
Wait only children get them, or do them?
Only children get them. You get a smack for each year of age, plus "one to grow on".
Now, keep in mind that I am Older Than Dirt, so this may no longer be a common custom.
Mostly as a joke, or horsing around with friends.
Used to be a big thing in my… primary school. I think it shows Xander's immaturity. He's very insecure and immature and tends to act the clown (although acting the clown and trying to be macho at the same time seems to lead to his horrible habit of slut shaming, stop it xander you're better than that!) rather than show his true personality.
We had birthday punches, which were a light punch in the arm for every year old you were.
Yeah, this was us too, plus usually "a pinch to grow an inch" also on the arm.
When I was a kid in England in the middle of the last century we expected to get (and give) "the bumps" – your friends held you by arms and legs and lifted you up, bumping you on the floor once for each year of your age. I can't remember when we gave up, but certainly not until early teens.
some of my friends did pinches
My elementary school teachers would do birthday "spankings" that were fake but had the proper number (your age plus one to grow one).
Just popping in to correct what seems to be a mistaken impression. Drusilla is *not* Romani. She is British, as evidenced by her accent. The "most beloved daughter of the tribe" was a different girl entirely.
Also, before people start getting too excited about what the Judge's statements about Spike and Dru's "humanity" might mean for soulless vampires and their previously established Always Chaotic Evil status, I would point out that anyone who thinks an appreciation of literature is burn-worthy clearly does not equate humanity with morally good traits alone. He seems to include intellectual qualities and powerful emotions under that umbrella as well, which would kill a whole lot of demons–the Master, for instance, who was very big on his twisted concept of family and obviously had a lot of "affection" for Darla. Also, for all the supposed humanity Spike and Dru possess, Spike was able to poke the Judge in the chest without getting so much as a blister on his finger. Affection and jealousy must merely be irritating to the Judge, but not enough for him to be able to burn you to death for it. And if the Judge had meant "love" when he said "affection and jealousy", he would have just said love, because love would definitely be a less forgivable manifestation of humanity. In terms of emotional attachment, affection and jealousy are as deep as Spike and Dru's relationship goes.
In terms of emotional attachment, affection and jealousy are as deep as Spike and Dru's relationship goes.
I completely disagree.
Me too, Bonnie.
And me.
And me!
Well, everyone tends to interpret canon differently. 🙂 I personally think vg'f gryyvat jura Natry vf sbhaq gb unir AB uhznavgl va uvz va gur arkg rcvfbqr, juvyr ur qvq unir n qrterr bs rzbgvbany nggnpuzrag gb Qneyn, srryf bofrffvba gbjneqf Ohssl, naq yrnirf (perrcl) qenjvatf ba Ohssl'f cvyybj. V crefbanyyl qb guvax vg'f fvtavsvpnag gung Fcvxr, Qeh, naq Qnygba unir uhznavgl juvyr aba-phefrq Natry qbrf abg. Cyhf, guvf raqf hc shapgvbavat nf terng sberfunqbjvat sbe Fcvxr'f riraghny punenpgre nep.
My personal interpretation of the characters says that the Master would be fine with The Judge. Nf Natry vf. Ohg Unezbal jbhyq trg ohearq gb n pevfc. In my opinion, it's implied that Spike and Drusilla could be destroyed. Spike touches his breast plate and comes off okay. Buffy kicks it and says she felt something, but it couldn't have been a huge deal because she wasn't damaged or crippled. Spike could have felt that too and left it unsaid, in order to show no fear or intimidation. My personal read of the character says that Spike does indeed love Drusilla.
That being said, we just interpret the same scripts and acting choices differently. To each their own! You have some really interesting points and I love to see this subject discussed.
Doesn't Spike poke the breastplate and not the Judge's skin? Maybe that makes a difference?
It was also seconds after he was reassembled. When Buffy kicked him a few hours later she felt feverish. His power is growing all the time
Gehr, unqa'g gubhtug bs gung. Naq ol gur raq, gur Whqtr vf noyr gb ohea jvgubhg gbhpuvat crbcyr, fb…vg qbrfa'g ernyyl znggre ubj sne lbh trg, ur pna fgvyy ohea lbh.
I'd never thought that Drusilla COULD be the girl who caused her family to curse Angelus – for one thing, he was soulless long enough with Dru (as evidenced by their little "family" of evil) before getting cursed, and secondly, he killed Dru's entire family, i.e. no one left to do any cursing.
And most obviously, she's British.
Remember, the Judge said he had to charge up before he could really do his thing, and he wasn't trying to hurt Spike then, so I wouldn't take Spike being able to poke him as indicative of immunity to his powers.
Svefg cbfg. V whfg unir gb favttre n ovg ng lbhe pbzcyrgr hacercnerqarff. Guvf gjb-cnegre vf, vzub, gur gvccvat cbvag sbe gur frevrf, jurer vg tbrf sebz orvat n irel tbbq fhcreangheny uvtu fpubby qenzrql gb fbzrguvat zhpu zber fhofgnagvny. Nf V frr vg, gur pbvapvqrapr gung lbh hfrq gur gvgyr bs gur arkg rcvfbqr va lbhe erivrj fubjf gur grkghny varivgnovyvgl bs jung’f gb pbzr. Rirelguvat unf yrq gb guvf cbvag, naq abguvat jvyy rire or gur fnzr.
rot13'd for expectation spoilers.
Sorry, I thought that was being really vague. I’ll reread the policy.
Jung unccrarq gurer ng gur raq, qvq Natry whfg fhqqrayl trg ubggre?
-Whenever I see a Claddagh ring now I think of this episode.
– I love Willow and Oz forever, I love all of their interactions and every word that he says. EVEN THE WAY HE SAYS "HEY" IS THE BEST.
– Spike does not seem happy to be in that wheelchair, a lot of his swagger seems to be gone. He wasn't even that snarky this episode. It's okay Spikey, armageddon will cheer you up!
– It is nice to see Dru shine in this episode, it becomes clearer to see how sick she was before.
– Oh Cordy, Xander actually tries being nice and opening up to you and you continue to insult him.
– The people responsible for dismantling The Judge fail. Seriously, only six pieces!? You should MINCE him! also the fact that the boxes fit perfectly together seems like a bit of a design flaw…
Ooh, you are NOT PREPARED. I'm going to keep saying this so you see.
YOU ARE NOT PREPARED
YOU
ARE
NOT
PREPARED
YOU ARE NOT PREPARED
Like, at ALL.
There is literally no way that you can be prepared. I await your next post anxiously.
It will be over 50% swearing, I can guarantee.
YOU
ARE
NOT
PREPARED.
Just watch the next episode NOW so we don't need to wait! Justify it by saying it's a two parter!
From his Twitter reactions, Mark already watched it on Sunday.
You are so not prepared.
Since I don't have any new thoughts to contribute (I'm just going through and upvoting things I agree with or find interesting — y'all have this shit totally covered)….
For anyone who needs a cheerful image to cleanse their palates, I taught my 2-year-old nephew to swim today, and he says "KICK KICK KICK" while he's swimming, and then when you catch him at the end of the pool he wraps himself around you and says "thaaank yooooou" while he hugs you.
Buffy/Angel is making me feel bleh
The cuteness of Willow/Oz is rescuing my interest interest in this episode.
I'm excited that Drusilla is back! And for real, not just in Buffy's dream.
What is this? Jenny backstory?! Gypsy? So unexpected! But I'm liking it.
I love that Giles is so adamant that they have Buffy's party.
Yay! Does this mean Oz is a scoobie now?
Maybe don't bring Angel to a party where you foresaw that he would die? I'm just sayin'
I love this choir music. E A E A I know people were saying how they hated it yesterday, but I really and unabashedly like it.
OMG What the fuck? I hate unannounced two parters!
“This one is full of feeling. He reads.”
Was it just me or did anyone else think of Mark here?
The big blue guy is calling for Mark, run away Mark!!
I lol'd SO hard at that line.
Wait, isn't the SOPA-protest tomorrow? Does that mean I have to wait until midnight to read Mark's reaction to part two!?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
….SURPRISE!
I ignore it when culture is presented on television as a rule. Always. Though I think this episode makes it clear that in the Buffyverse, "gypsies" aren't thieves or anything bad, but they're actually an eastern European sub-type of witches. They're badass and magickally potent.
My grandmother is from Hungary and if you even so much as say the word "gypsy" to her, she'll go on a tirade about how they're all liars and thieves, etc. So it's definitely a slur. But I also know about people who embrace the term, and clearly, the show is doing something more metaphysical with it.
I've always loved how Oz becomes integrated into the group in this episode. So calm. So laid-back. So Oz.
Cordelia going SURPRISE! wins for me all the time.
The Judge is played by the same guy who played Luke in the show's first two episodes. Cool.
Oh, and yes: this episode marks when "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" starts to become truly great. It was already awesome before, but "Surprise" takes things to a whole new level.
Oh, Mark.
Oh. I can't even.
You are not prepared, sir.
God, I can't wait for tomorrow's review.
OH GOD.
I can only be cryptic.
The end.
There are lots of things I like a lot about this episode, and a couple of things I really don't like.
– The show isn't the greatest when it comes to ethnic diversity, but OMG, the portrayal of Romani is the biggest ethnicity fail on the show. Though at least Jenny is not a stereotypical character at all, which can't be said for her uncle. "Gypsy curse" is a total stereotype, though we have season 1 to blame for introducing it..
– Second thing that brings the episode down for me is, I'm afraid, Buffy/Angel. I loved their relationship in S2 when I first watched the show; when I've recently rewatched S2, I really liked the portrayal of their relationship in Angel and from Halloween to Bad Eggs, especially in What's My Line 1/2, but in Surprise they are behaving way too melodramatic for my taste. In every scene they're making out, making big romantic proclamations or having tearful goodbyes, or all of those at the same time. They're getting emotional over having to say goodbye each day – for an entire day (?!), then they're acting like it's the end of the world when he's just leaving for a couple of months. Qba'g trg zr jebat, V ybir gur Onatry cnva naq qenzn, jura gur pvephzfgnaprf jneenag vg – V ybir gur nep gung'f fgnegvat jvgu gur arkg rcvfbqr, V pel ng Vaabprapr, Cnffvba, V Bayl Unir Rlrf Sbe Lbh naq Orpbzvat VV, ohg va gubfr rcvfbqrf gurer ner ernyyl njshy guvatf unccravat naq vg xvaq bs vf gur raq bs gur jbeyq… Abg fb urer. V trg gung gurer vf fhoirefvba gurer, naq vg’f nyy n cneg bs gur frghc sbe Vaabprapr – znxvat vg nyy bu fb ebznagvp naq rzbgvbany, naq Natry gur cevapr punezvat sebz gur ebznapr abiry, fb Natryhf jbhyq or n zber fubpxvat oybj gb obgu Ohssl naq gur ivrjref. Ohg V fgvyy qba’g yvxr jngpuvat vg. V npghnyyl sryg eryvrirq guvf gvzr gung ur'f ybfvat uvf fbhy fb V qba'g unir gb frr gurz orvat yvxr guvf nalzber… ng yrnfg abg gvyy frnfba 3.
– Still, there are Bangel scenes here I like. My favorite scene in the episode is the opening dream scene, so haunting. The second dream scene is also great. It's a prophetic dream ("Do you really think you're ready, Buffy?") but is Buffy's interpretation of it right? Willow's words are„The hippo stole his pants“ in French – a reference to Willow's conversation with Oz in What's My Line II. Whether Willow told Buffy about the conversation, or it somehow found its way into Buffy's dream – in any case it’s linked to the fact that Buffy's best friend is also crossing an important threshold between childhood to adulthood. I love the song .Anything“ by Clement and Murray, an atmospheric trip hop melody which gives the scene a really haunting, dreamlike feel.
Take me over / I'm lying down, giving in to you / I'm a hurricane / I can't describe this feeling/ Now that I've found this love /I'll do anything for you
I'm a fire / Burning like a house on flame / I am motionless / I cannot move, only see you fly…
The song is really all about sex, in that teenage romantic way. Fire and hurricane as symbols of passion, and the feeling of wanting to be overwhelmed by it and lose control. Gur cuenfr "gnxr zr bire" erzvaqf zr bs gur jnl Ohssl qrfpevorq ure F6 eryngvbafuvc jvgu Fcvxr (Pbairefngvbaf jvgu Qrnq Crbcyr) “…ohg ng gur fnzr gvzr V yrg uvz pbzcyrgryl gnxr zr bire”. Frk naq ebznapr ner sbe Ohssl bsgra nobhg gur ybff bs pbageby. (Jryy, znlor abg jvgu Evyrl.)
– Our first look at Spike and Dru since WML. They still have the same power in the Sunnydale vampire community, so Dru obviously knows how to maintain power and get the job done, mental illness or not. That's quite a wardrobe change for Dru – from white nightgowns to sexy red and black dresses. But even that she's strong and that Spike is in the wheelchair, she still has that little girl persona, it's clearly a part of her. In some ways I like Spike even more now, he isn't acting as impulsive and bullying people as he did before, but his wit is even more at display, and he's acting like the voice of reason this time: Dru listens to his advice as much as he did to hers; in Lie to Me she stopped him from immediately killing Ford, and here he stops her from plucking Dalton's eyes, because he is more useful than their other henchmen.
– Best scene:
The Judge steps out of his box. He has difficulty keeping his balance. He points at Drusilla.
Judge: You!
Spike: (rolls over to him in Dru's defense) Ho, ho, ho. What's that, mate?
Judge: You two stink of humanity. You share affection and jealousy.
Spike: Yeah. What of it? (taps his armor) Do I have to remind you that we're the ones who brought you here?
This is classic Spike. He's in the wheelchair but he immediately rolls over to the defense of the woman he loves, and he's not intimidated at all by this big mythical scary figure and mocks him, and he's totally unashamed of his 'human' feelings. I LOVE YOU, SPIKE.
– "Actually, that explains a lot". Classic Oz.
– I love the Willow/Oz and the Xander/Cordy parts of the episode. B/A is an epic romance, W/O a sweet and understated high-school love, and X/C an comical antagonistic relationship full of snark, but with hints of deeper feelings that both of them are suppressing. “It must’ve been my multiple personality guy talking. I call him Idiot Jed, glutton for punishment” – one of the best lines of the episode.
– Just after Mark said that Xander's creepy inappropriate comments have toned down, he has the silliest and creepiest comment so far – his fantasy of "rescuing" Buffy from the bad home life with Angel, in his private jet, while she cries… So much wrong with this, even more than his fantasy in Teacher's Pet. But the show is totally calling him on his immature male entitlement fantasies.
– "Do it again! Do it again!" Drusilla can be so funny and creepy at the same time, with her childlike cruel ways.
– This is Brian Thompson's second role on the show. He previously played Luke in WTTH/The Harvest.
– Judge’s definition of humanity seems a bit arbitrary: I see why he says Dalton is "full of feeling", but he also says he reads too much, ohg Natryhf yvxrf onyyrg – and since when is reading books a sign of goodness? Judge also thinks Dru and Spike “stink of humanity” for their shared love and jealousy, but those feelings often lead people to evil.
– Best line: Angel (getting between the Judge and Buffy): Take me instead of her!
Spike (raises hand): Uh, you’re not clear on the concept, pal. There’s no “instead”. Just first and second.
(Angel is acting like a cardboard romantic hero here, this is the kind of line that heroes say in movies all the time; I love that Spike points out that what he says doesn't make sense.)
– And so Angel finally tells Buffy "I love you". It sure took him a long time to say those words, even though everyone figured out he was in love with Buffy back in season 1. Does anyone else think that this guy may be secretly insecure and afraid to put himself on the line emotionally? He only told her ILY after he made her tell him she loves him (in Lie to Me) and had her give him assurances of commitment (in this episode, with the Claddagh ring). V qvqa'g guvax nobhg guvf orsber, ohg vg'f gur vzcerffvba V trg nsgre jngpuvat uvf orunivbe jvgu Pbeql va NgF F3 naq F4 (“Jrer jr va ybir?” nf vs ur arrqrq ure gb gryy uvz vs ur jnf va ybir jvgu ure).
– Buffy and Dru are paralleled throughout the episode. (BTW is Dru's birthday her human birthday or the day she was sired?) Those two very different women both have precognitive abilities, naq Natry(hf) jvyy fbba fgneg gelvat gb oernx Ohssl gur jnl ur qvq Qeh. Jung nobhg gur sberfunqbjvat va gur qernz? Jura Qeh xvyyf Natry, znlor vg’f ernyyl nobhg Natry’f qnex cnfg, ercerfragrq ol Qehfvyyn, pbzvat onpx, juvpu zrnaf gur raq bs Natry nf Ohssl xarj uvz? Qbrf vg uvag gung Natry’f qrngu jbhyq va snpg or n tvsg gb Ohssl – Qeh qbrfa’g ybbx fnepnfgvp be zrna ng nyy jura fur ybbxf ng Ohssl naq fnlf ‘Unccl oveguqnl, Ohssl?” Be qbrf vg sberfunqbj Ohssl “xvyyvat” Natry va Orpbzvat VV? Jura Qeh jneaf Ohssl gb trg ure unaqf bss ure cerfragf, qbrf fur zrna gur Whqtr? Be gur erghea bs gur fbhyyrff rivy Natryhf, juvpu vf gur orfg oveguqnl cerfrag sbe Qeh?
And here we go
-D'aaaawwww, WIllow with a Capuchin monkey! I wonder if that's supposed to be a nod to her "monkey pants" conversation with Oz.
-So, Angel's clothes get dusted except for the ring? Interesting.
-"We never saw her body"……and you wouldn't have even if she had died because she's, you know, a vampire.
-"I said date!" Willow, I love you.
-Is it just me, or is Xander acting mature, or at least something very close to it? Yay!
-And now he's being stupid Xander again. At least Jenny is awesome here telling him off.
-Aaaww, poor Spike 🙁
-Oh no! Ominous plate shatter!
-Character background for Jenny. Awesome! Cultural stereotypes: not awesome.
-Willow, where did you even get that sweater?
-Heee! I love daddy!Giles. He just wants Buffy to have fun. 🙂
-Your timing is wonderful, Cordelia.
-"Actually it explains a lot" Oz: more observant that the average Sunnydale citizen.
-I love the way Dru puts Geeky-Vamp's glasses back on him and pats his head.
-Ah yes, and here we have the reason so many people on ebay put "buffy" in the title when they're selling Claddagh rings. Also this scene is sad 🙁
-JEEZ! Way to ruin the moment, guys!
-Xander, kindly stop doing that thing where you're annoying.
-So the guys who scattered the pieces of the Judge made ornate boxes which could easily be fit together like a puzzle? Seems like a bad idea to me.
-Goodbye Geeky-Vamp. I'll miss you.
-Hurray for conveniently placed television sets!
-Aaaww, Buffy.
-Emotionally jarring ending! DUNDUNDUN.
"You know this is only done so that they can tear them apart and Whedon can add another month to his lifespan, right?"
Are you saying that Joss Whedon is some kind of Shinigami? …….It kind of makes sense actually.
I'll be honest I didn't know the word "gypsy" was considered a insult until recently. I'm not sure if that's lack of acknowledgement of the term in the real world (in otherwords general public ignorance) or just my own fault for not knowing. But at least now I know so I don't use the term. Also Angel/Buffy is about ten times sexier (and better relationship wise) then anything on Twilight.
Daily Buffy Quotable:
"Our band's moving towards this new sound where we suck. So practice."-Oz
"I said date."-Willow (being the most adorable thing ever)
"Looks like Mr. Caution Man but the sound he makes is funny."-Xander
Willow: I know it's hard to believe at first…Oz: Actually, it explains a lot.
"He is a wanker, but he's the only one we've got with half a brain."-Spike
I want to comment on two things. Can we let people who are minor characters, there only as exposition, possibly just be cardboard cutouts? How many lines does Jenny's uncle have? He's there's specifically to remonstrate on the issue of Jenny and how she's dealing (or not) with Angel. Does he *have* to have character depth? I haven't heard anyone complaining about Snyder having depth. Do we have to assume that this is a negative treatment of another culture? I say this only because I do worry sometimes that perhaps we're looking too hard for anti-feminist, anti-foreign, anti-fill-in-the-blank sentiment or implications. I just worry that people are missing the point of what's going on in favour of being bitter over the negative connotations of the simple use of the group.
Then again, I'm from a white and privileged background, so maybe I'm just not sufficiently sensitive to these things. All I'm saying is that people need to be careful not to assume the worst.
And the second thing is . . .
I thought Buffy had been knocked unconscious, or at least Angel thought she was unconscious when she hit the water. I don't know about you, but I can't swim when I've been knocked out. So, that's how I read his jumping in after her.
And can someone explain to me what the limit is in these comment boxes? I know it's clearly not a character count.
I agree like a thousand percent.
The complaint here is not that the minor characters lack depth, but this minor character specifically reflects harmful stereotypes about Romani culture that are used frequently in media. One of the purposes of this site is not merely to have fun watching shows, but to critically engage with what is presented by the writers. And this is not the first time that side characters have been depicted largely by common stereotypes. The point of Jenny's uncle being there for revenge could have been handled without making the character pretty much a caricature of so-called "gypsies". This is why people are upset over the depiction. I don't think that people assume the worst, we just expect better from writers who we have seen write characters well in the past, whether minor or not.
"we just expect better from writers who we have seen write characters well in the past"
By in the past you mean before 1998 because IIRC most of the writers on Buffy were all relatively new to television at the time and only developed into well respected writers in later seasons and later in their careers.
I generally agree, and I don't think that the uncle has to be a complex character or anything. But in this case, it does irk me (not to the level of writing angry letters, but to the level of rolling my eyes) that they went with a "Gypsy curse" – such a stereotype.
Joss joked n his DVD commentary that he went with the "classic", since "Danish curse" wouldn't have such a ring. But actually I think it would've been much cooler if they had picked the "Danish curse". 😉
I would have loved to see a Danish curse! Ha. Joss tries to subvert as many tropes as possible so why not this one?
…so difficult not to make a joke about Danish >_>
Well, okay, a mild one:
*cvpgherf Jvyybj fcrnxvat Qnavfu*
*oenva oernxf*
idk, I would've maybe liked a Scottish curse (after Macbeth, which apparently it's bad luck to refer to by name so actors call it The Scottish Play instead).
Well, no, not every minor character needs profound character depth, but for some of us, if a character falls squarely into an ethnic stereotype, yes, we're gonna see it as problematic. Principals are not a historically and/or currently oppressed minority, so people tend to not be bothered by Snyder being a standard unreasonable sadistic authority figure.
I say this only because I do worry sometimes that perhaps we're looking too hard for anti-feminist, anti-foreign, anti-fill-in-the-blank sentiment or implications. I just worry that people are missing the point of what's going on in favour of being bitter over the negative connotations of the simple use of the group.
That… sounds rather dismissive of the concerns some of us have (I am not certain how you meant it, but "in favour of being bitter" is… not the best choice of words, y'know? I at least don't relish being annoyed by racial/ethnic/etc stereotypes & tropes).
Plus, a lot of us have seen this show a few times already and know what's going on, which allows us to concentrate on the more problematic bits we might not've noticed earlier.
All I'm saying is that people need to be careful not to assume the worst.
Given the show's record on racial/other-ethnicity issues so far, that's kinda hard to do.
Also, why shouldn't we assume the worst? Intent is not magic; the writers may not have intended to give us a statement about Roma culture, but as viewers we have to work with the text as it's presented, and some of us see problematic arrows there.
It's about patterns. This show has very few characters of color. The few that are present (few being a relative term, but still a quite small number considering this show is set in Southern California) are generally extras who are victims and often die. Or maybe they're in the background and don't speak and aren't noticed.
It's not about each example taken in isolation. It's the fact that characters of color on this show have not been treated well. The minor ones are in the background and insignificant and very often victims, frequently dying. There are few prominent characters of color thus far. You have Kendra with a ridiculous accent whose "journey" as we saw her was to come from a pitiful background and make us feel sad for her and who learns from the white woman about what it is to live. And of course, there's Impata and that episode, which just sucks regarding these issues. And now you have Jenny and her family, who only now is revealed to come from a marginalized ethnic group. And they're used for a "gypsy curse" storyline, which is a tired and offensive trope.
You ask this: "Do we have to assume that this is a negative treatment of another culture?"
What I and others ask is, is there any reason to assume this is not a negative treatment of another culture, as would fit the pattern of mainstream society in general and this show in specific? The pattern of treating other cultures poorly is a longstanding one in society, and it's true of this show.
I will not treat Jenny's uncle as an isolated incident when he is merely one in a pattern. And thus I cannot simply write off his depiction as 'they didn't have time' when all he serves to do is embody tired marginalizing tropes about Romani people. By having a "gypsy curse" in the first place, the show has already started out using hurtful tropes; Jenny's uncle in no way rectifies that but only reinforces those tropes.
-What language is Willow using with the monkey? Is it another new one?
-Its weird when a clue to it being a dream is that Buffy is wearing a long sleeved pajama shirt.
-I think I am tired of make-out sessions for the moment.
-Why are my conversations not as witty and adorable as Willow/Oz conversations?
-Double-edged sword, acceptance or rejection. Poor Xander, I like that he wants to make it official.
-I want to see Cordelia try to cook, it would probably be a disaster. Not because I think she can't cook but because I don't think she would be interested enough in the process to pay attention.
-HI JENNY!
-Awww, Spike in a wheelchair. Awesome, within awesome.
-Drusilla seems more erratic then before? With her vampire self healed is the demon now in conflict with her unstable mind? Or does she just have more energy to be erratic wherever she wants to be.
-Oh, Jenny, no. 🙁
-True Dreams are not fun. Though I think Buffy is fortunate that she can remember hers so clearly.
-Giles, you sound awesome when you are tricking Buffy into having fun.
-The Bronze must be very cheap to rent.
-Cordy 🙂
-Sunnydale has docks too?
-A Promise Ring? Wow.
-That was actually a well planned Vamp attack. Guess he likes him eyeballs.
-Speaking of Oz why wasn't he invited to the research party? Too much at once?
-Xander is honest with Willow about his jealousy rather than making a joke. Is that development or deep friendship?
-Haha, Angel getting defensive.
-Hello Mr. Freeze, you have horns now.
-I think I know whats happening to Angel but that is still a weird ending.
I am going to be having trouble posting for the next couple days as my computer charger is busted and its the only thing I can watch Buffy on atm.
She's speaking French to the monkey. She says "the hippo stole your pants". It's a callback to her conversation with Oz in What's My Line?, pt2.
That's awesome. I wish I knew more French. All I can do is count to ten and say please.
All the French I know, I learned from Eddie Izzard.
[youtube NUd1BhokZq4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUd1BhokZq4 youtube]
Never stop posting Eddie Izzard clips. They make everything better.
My favorite part is 3:29
". . . Quoi?"
Loooove Eddie Izzard
I felt kind of guilty when Dennis Hopper died, because all I could think all day was "Ah, Dennis Hopper, quel méchant!"
"ciao!"
I didn't even think about the docks. Yeah, where on earth did they come from? Since when is Sunnydale a harbor for cargo ships?
Rfcrpvnyyl pbafvqrevat gung, nf cre gur svany rcvfbqr bs gur fubj, jr frr gung Fhaalqnyr vf pbzcyrgryl fheebhaqrq ol qrfreg naq va gur zvqqyr bs abjurer.
LOL.
A question for everyone in preparation for the discussion about the next episode, regarding potential spoilers:
When we start having the discussion about the next episode, a lot of people will probably fgneg hfvat gur anzr "Natryhf" sbe fbhyyrff Natry, va pbagenfg gb "Natry", hfrq sbe fbhyrq Natry. Ubjrire, jura V erpragyl erjngpurq frnfba 2 (V'z abj ng gur ortvaavat bs frnfba 3), V ernyvmrq gung punenpgref ba gur fubj qvqa'g qb gung ng nyy va frnfba 2 – Wraal vf gur bayl bar jub hfrq "Natryhf" va Vaabprapr, rirelbar ryfr (Natry-hf uvzfrys, Qeh, Fcvxr, Ohssl, Tvyrf, Jvyybj…) xrrc pnyyvat uvz "Natry" guebhtubhg frnfba 2. Jung'f zber, Fcvxr hfrf "Natryhf" bapr, va Cnffvba – gb ersre gb obgu gur fbhyrq naq fbhyyrff irefvba bs gur bgure inzcver ("V cersreerq gur byq, Ohssl-juvccrq Natryhf". Gur fubbgvat fpevcgf nyfb pnyyrq uvz "Natry" nyy gur gvzr, jurgure ur jnf fbhyrq be fbhyyrff.
Gur unovg bs qvssreragvngvat orgjrra gur fbhyrq naq fbhyyrff irefvba ol pnyyvat gurz qvssrerag anzrf zvtug or oivbhfyl havirefnyyl npprcgrq va snaqbz, ohg va pnaba vg fgnegrq yngre – ba Natry gur Frevrf gurl nyjnlf hfr "Natry" naq "Natryhf" guvf jnl, juvpu boivbhfyl phyzvangrf va frnfba 4.
So, should perhaps everyone try not to do that – it might not be a spoiler per se, but it might be considered as predisposing Mark and other first-viewers to see things a certain way?
I asked about this on the spoiler blog. Check there for the mod stance.
And let me just remind you all that the Romani culture considers “gypsy” an ethnic slur, so please avoid using it in a pejorative sense, okay? Obviously if you need to discuss the use of that word, that’s totally an acceptable context, but I think a lot of people genuinely have no clue that word is an incredibly oppressive slur.
Is it just the use-mention distinction you're talking about, here?
I suppose that's what I'm getting at. That is a neat wiki page.
which is currently blacked out in protest against SOPA 🙁
SURPRISE!
We'll talk more later.
BTW, Buffy's birthday, January 19, is also my birthday.
well, happy Birthday a couple of days in advance! Ha, I like that we're watching this episode around the time of year it was supposed to have happened.
Oh man, we should have tried to get Mark to time this right, to actually fall on her birthday.
Aww, happy early birthday!
(though do we ever get a definite date for her birthday? I always thought it was around this time in January, but I would have fangirled like no one's business if I'd ever found out the date via feverish googling fifteen years ago)
– Monkey!
– Aww, the smile Buffy gets when she sees Angel. SO CUTE
– NOOO ANGEL
– Yay, it was just a dream! Well, obviously, why else would Buffy be at The Bronze in her pajamas?
– I DON'T REMEMBER THIS EPISODE.
– Angel is less muscular than I expected…
– He looks good in that white t-shirt, though.
– God they are always really horny
– Willow, I love your hat <3
– OZ!!!
– Oz and Willow's whole conversation when he asks her out is so cute. <3333
– Oh Spike, that scar looks painful 🙁 🙁 🙁
– The way he smiles at Drusilla oh my goddd I ship them so hard
– "…Not happy birthday Buffy?" The way Alyson Hannigan delivers this line is adorable!
– "He looks like Mr. Caution Man, but the sound he makes is funny." My thoughts exactly, Xander. Well, okay, my thoughts were more along the lines of "that's an unusual thing for Giles to say," but close enough.
– "SURPRISE!" Oh, Cordy.
– "Hey, did everybody just see that guy turn to dust?" Oz is just so chill about everything it's awesome. Also HE IS TINY or maybe Alyson Hannigan's just really tall? IDK
– Angel don't leave 🙁
– Xander, I thought you were over Buffy???
– When Xander calls his mom, he says "Hi mom," and then after a pause he says "Xander." Did his mom not know who he was? Because that's kinda sad 🙁
– That demon is… kind of not scary?
– Oh Angel, "take me instead" never works, don't you watch movies?
– Saddest, most unsexy sex scene ever. And I mean that as a huge compliment to the writers and the actors.
– Abbb Natry lbhe fbhy 🙁
or maybe Alyson Hannigan's just really tall?
Nah, Seth Green's just tiny. He's 5'4", I think.
Did his mom not know who he was?
Oh man, I didn't even notice that. Poor Xander. The hints you get about his home life do not a happy picture make 🙁
– When Xander calls his mom, he says "Hi mom," and then after a pause he says "Xander." Did his mom not know who he was? Because that's kinda sad 🙁
Yeah, I think that was the joke. It's been hinted before that Xander's home life is less than ideal.
– When Xander calls his mom, he says "Hi mom," and then after a pause he says "Xander." Did his mom not know who he was? Because that's kinda sad 🙁
I know! It's so sad.
I have a borderline obsession with Willow's hat from this episode. I think if I ever met a girl wearing it, I would have to fight a strong urge to propose to her on the spot.
I now present to you ( a perhaps recurring comment)
poppet tweets Buffy
WAIT. WHAT.
WHAAAT.
WHAAAAAAAAAT WHAAAAAAAAT MY MIND IS BROKEN
JENNY! WHAAAAT.
No spoilers…watching BTVS…for about the 4th time….Willow is beyond cute in that blue hat…..Marti Noxon my favorite Buffy writer after Joss…Drussilla…"do it again…do it again" Spike comes across as an anchor to keep Drussilla in our world….Angel giving Buffy…the one ring…..Buffy never dressing like a warrior for a fight but like a 17 year old girl…Luv that……End of the world sex????….Every time I see this episode I cannot help but think…why did they not drop the arm in the middle of the ocean??? Some mystical reason I suppose. Joss can bring the pain…that is for sure.
Because the box would rot and then the arm would swim to shore and make its creepy crawly way back to it's body.
Apologies for this image.
OH GOD CANNOT UNSEE NOW. **wibbles**
Angel giving Buffy…the one ring
Now you just make me want to giggle at that scene. Which is probably not how it's meant to be taken, but oh goodness the image….
"Surprise" oh my god I love season two
– Don't worry Buffy, you and Giles could still open an office-supply warehouse in Vegas and make that dream come true! I would watch that spinoff.
– [Vf guvf gur svefg gvzr gurl chyy bhg gur Ohssl/Natry gurzr? Orpnhfr V xabj gurl'ir unq uvagf bs vg orsber, ohg V qba'g erzrzore urnevat vg va shyy orsber abj. Nyfb, nccneragyl gur gurzr vf pnyyrq "Bcra Lbhe Rlrf." ZNU PERLF]
– "You still haven't told me what you wanted for your birthday." I shouted "SEX!" at the screen. "Surprise me." I guess that's cool too. ~foreshadowing~
– "When we say goodnight, it's getting harder." I shouted "YEAH IT'S GETTING HARDER" at the screen because I am apparently twelve
– WILLOW IN A CUTE PURPLE HAT OMG ADORBS
– ["Pnecr qvrz! Lbh gbyq zr gung bapr." Lrnu, naq vg jnf onq nqivpr gura gbb.]
– "I think we're going to. Seize it." YEAH you're going to seize "it" okay I'll stop
– OMG the entire scene with Oz and Willow. "Well, if it helps at all, I'm gonna say yes." … "Oh, I can't!" "Well see, I like that you're unpredictable." ~FLAWLESS DIALOGUE~
– THEY ARE SO CUTE
– Birthday spanking? Shut up, Xander.
– It's Drusilla's birthday too? She and Buffy could have a joint birthday party! Or not.
– "Do you really think you're ready, Buffy?" NONE OF US ARE READY. WE ARE ALL UNPREPARED
– Jenny's uncle Enyos shows up and suddenly I have the Decemberists stuck in my head. "This is the story of your gypsy uncle…" (I do think the portrayal of the Romani clan here is over-the-top and the writers just needed a vaguely exotic-sounding culture to use so they picked one at random, but at this point I've seen it so many times that I just eyeroll and move on.)
– Willow's sweater with the Scottish Terrier on it is adorable
– "You ground his bones to make your bread!" "That's true. Except for the bread part." One of my favorite call-backs.
– "Sorry. Sacred duty, yada yada yada."
– "That pretty much sums it up." Oz is the best part of every episode
– Giles blowing the noisemaker <3
– "Hey did everybody see that guy just turn to dust?"
– "Actually, it explains a lot." OZ IS THE BEST
– Angel gives Buffy a Ring of Angsty Star-Crossed Lovers <3
– Drusilla listens to Rasputina because of course she does.
– The Judge is played by the same dude who played Luke in the opening episodes. You can totally tell too
– "Do it again! Do it again!"
– [Urer'f n uvag: Enva ba guvf fubj vf ONQ ARJF. Vg arire envaf va Fbhgurea Pnyvsbeavn…]
– [Nyfb onq arjf: erq orqqvat]
– "I love you." Aw.
– If this were the Ember Island Players, at this point someone would go "Did Buffy and Angel just… have sex?" "I don't know, it was really unclear."
– NOES RAIN AND ANGST AND SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH ANGEL NOES
– TO BE CONTINUED NOES
I shouted "YEAH IT'S GETTING HARDER" at the screen because I am apparently twelve
I actually skipped through this scene this rewatch, but when I watched it two weeks ago, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT
we can be 12 together!
Me three!
EMBER ISLAND PLAYERS REFERENCE FTW
I don't really have anything constructive today except YOU ARE NOT PREPARED.
V pna'g jnvg gb frr ubj Znex ernpgf jura ur svaqf bhg nobhg Natry'f ynpx bs fbhy. D:
V unir fhpu na vffhr jvgu gur jubyr Natryhf i. Natry guvat. Naq V thrff vg’f zl gevttre. Yvnz zvtug abg unir orra n terng thl, ohg ur arire fubjrq nal crapunag sbe zheqre be rawblvat cnva. Naq Yvnz qvrq. Natryhf vf guvf guvat gung unccrarq nsgre na npghny qrzba gbbx bire gur obql gung Yvnz unq orra naq hfrq vg gb qb hafcrnxnoyl rivy sbe qrpnqrf.
Ohg Natry vf rffragvnyyl ernfba pbzr onpx gb n obql jub qvqa’g unir n pubvpr nobhg abg orvat ernfbanoyr. Va bgure jbeqf, crbcyr jub ner npghnyyl penml, qba’g unir n pubvpr nobhg vg, naq znlor ner fnar yngre. Znlor yngre jvgu fbzr qehtf, naq n ybg bs gurencl gung gnxr njnl fbzr bs gur ibvprf/onq srryvatf, gurl pna gura jbex gbjneqf trggvat gur erfg bs vg haqre pbageby. Ohg gurer pna or fbzrguvat culfvbybtvpnyyl “jebat” jvgu lbh, jurerva lbh qb “onq” guvatf naq lbh’er abg va pbageby.
Qb jr chavfu gubfr crbcyr jub nera’g va pbageby, sbe jung gurl qb jura bhg bs pbageby? Zl nafjre vf ab, jr qb abg. Aba Pbzcbf Zragvf. Jura vg vf pyrne gung gur pbafpvrapr; gur zvaq; ernfba; be va OgIF grezf — gur fbhy; vf bhg gb yhapu, jura gurl ner pbzzvggvat pevzrf orpnhfr gurl rffragvnyyl unir ab pubvpr, jr nf pvivyvmrq crbcyr qb ABG ubyq gubfr crbcyr erfcbafvoyr. Gung vf qvssrerag guna n fbpvbcngu, juvpu vf rffragvnyyl jung nyy bgure, aba-fbhyrq inzcevrf, ner. Gurl unir ab pbafpvrapr be cbffvovyvgl bs pbafpvrapr, fb nyy gurl qb vf xvyy naq rawbl vg nf gurve qrzbavp angherf gryy gurz gb qb fb.
Ohg gb zr chavfuvat fbzrbar jub jnf yvgrenyyl abg va punetr naq unq ab npghny pubvpr bs pbafpvrapr, ohg yngre ernyvmrf jung unccrarq gb gur chccrg gung jnf gurve obql, naq sryg onqyl sbe jung gur chccrg qvq (ohg evtugyl fnj GURL jrer abg gb oynzr), vf gur fnzr nf chavfuvat zragnyyl vyy crbcyr, be crbcyr jub ner zragnyyl qrsvpvrag, be gb chg va fhcreangheny jnlf, cbffrffrq crbcyr. Fb Ebznavv va gur gur OgIF = Grknf. Naq gung’f arire n tbbq guvat. Fb funzr ba guvf rcvfbqr sbe znxvat vg guvf jnl.
Don't use the word "crazy" on this site.
Rot13'd for spoilers. Also, please don't use "crazy" on this site. And I have no desire to actually discuss this topic right now, but this bit "Fb Ebznavv va gur gur OgIF = Grknf." is really offputting for a variety of reasons.
offputting…that's the word I was looking for, it bugged me too
You might want to Rot-13 this as it's a bit spoilery…
It’s not that I think either Angel or Buffy controls the other. The post-escape scene in Angel’s apartment is just an interesting contrast to what we’ve seen of the other vampire couple. The two are much more emotional, eager to touch and assure the other of how much they love one another. There’s an inherent pain to their relationship, as if two lonely souls are finally finding a solace they thought didn’t exist.
You put it beautifully!
I've written a lot on Jenny Calendar/Janna of the Kalderash, because I think her passing narrative is really interesting but also really problematic. In particular, the ~magical gypsy~ leitmotif they start playing in this episode whenever she's lurking in a corner watching Buffy and Angel really bugs. She's one of my favorite characters on this show, though.
This may be a weird question, but you don't happen to be lj's eleusis_walks, do you?
omg that would be awesome
I got linked to their essays recently and SO MUCH LOVE <3
Lol. I am sure it's him. lj's eleusis_walks is itsinthetrees on tumblr, so all signs point to yes.
*instant follow on both sites*
Seconding the love so hard <3
And for me, eye-openers on some aspects/issues.
I am! I'm also @itsinthetrees on Tumblr, which is where I know Mark. 🙂
THEN MAY I SAY THAT YOU ROCK. <3
Shweet *does a little fanboy dance for you*
"passing narrative" and "leitmotif" gave you away for me 😉 plus, the Jenny/Janna love
Yes, there was a bit of an outcry when the famous "sex scene" happened. And I can't quite remember but I think that they made them cut a scene where there was a condom on the night stand? Something like that? (Although he had no need for one, but I think Joss wanted to make it clear). SAFE SEX CORRUPTS, Y'ALL! The Censors wanted to make sure that kids werent corrupted by the imagery of condoms. As long as they don't use any protection at all, it's totally fine!!
!! That's awful!
"The Censors wanted to make sure that kids werent corrupted by the imagery of condoms. As long as they don't use any protection at all, it's totally fine!! "
…Sigh.
Oh I just…these episodes…I can't.
Have a Cordy gif.
<img src="http://i41.tinypic.com/14wtvkw.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
CORDY IS THE BEST. ILH.
Not only are Buffy's dreams prophetic, but they also have a sense of humor: Willow is drinking a cappuccino, and next to her is a capuchin monkey. Punny!
I want to hug Buffy (all the time, but this time in particular) when she asks Willow, "What if I never feel this way again?", because for all the eye-rolling that might elicit and the clucks of disapproval that Buffy needs to wait until she's older and wiser, there's something poignant about her confusion. It's short-sighted, sure, but I think it touches on something that's very true about the feeling of first love, no matter how it begins or ends. And it pinpoints a big part of what's appealing about high school/coming-of-age stories in general to me: characters on the verge of growing up who worry about all the possibilities of who they could become, not knowing it's happening right then as they talk it out and make choices and be brave. idk BUFFY'S CARPEING THE DIEM. WILLOW SAID "DATE." And her giant hat gives me Blossom flashbacks. There's something in my eye.
"You two stink of humanity. You share affection and jealousy."
Usually Buffy and Angel don't do much for me, but their return to Angel's apartment is so beautifully shot it makes me picture the cinematographer sitting down and thinking hard of how to set up the Platonic ideal of tragic consummation scenes: the close-ups of their faces, the storm outside, SMG's sopping wet yet magically gorgeous hair and makeup, the red sheets, the way they lean into one another, the fact they're on the verge of losing each other after they've narrowly escaped immolation. All that's missing are some candles and Boyz II Men. I am not made of stone, and the actors totally sell it.
Re: Jenny's uncle, I want to recommend a TED talk by the novelist Chimamanda Adichie: The Danger of a Single Story (there's also a transcript here). The problem isn't a question of character depth, but diversity: Romani culture is more than the sum of its heavily accented mystics, but you wouldn't know that from watching American media, which shows the same thing over and over again. Seeing the same caricature is annoying at best, and reinforcing actively harmful cultural attitudes and power structures at worst. And not to speak for anyone else, but I doubt the commenters who are bothered by this are hunting high and low for things to get mad about (since speaking up is the opposite of fun and rewarding), but genuinely hoping that writers can notice the patterns they're contributing to and be more thoughtful next time. Jenny's heritage reveal combined with lurking in the shadows is not the show's greatest moment.
Willow is drinking a cappuccino, and next to her is a capuchin monkey. Punny!
LOL THIS IS AMAZING
for all the eye-rolling that might elicit and the clucks of disapproval that Buffy needs to wait until she's older and wiser, there's something poignant about her confusion. It's short-sighted, sure, but I think it touches on something that's very true about the feeling of first love, no matter how it begins or ends. And it pinpoints a big part of what's appealing about high school/coming-of-age stories in general to me: characters on the verge of growing up who worry about all the possibilities of who they could become, not knowing it's happening right then as they talk it out and make choices and be brave.
Yes, this. I mean, when I was a teenager, I had to make my own mistakes. My older sister, who was in college, told me "the guys you will date in high school are mostly just useful to help you figure out what you want and don't want in a relationship, so don't take them so seriously." But there was no way I could have taken this advice because I didn't have the benefit of perspective. I had to make my own mistakes, to go through that realization myself, before I could look back and say "oh yeah, those relationships in high school were kind of shallow, and I didn't really know those people at all."
You can't see it while you're living it, and I actually think this is an argument FOR letting teenagers make their own decisions about sex and relationships, because that's how learning and growing happens. (Safe sex is always a good plan though.)
It seems like I should say something here…
Something important.
SURPRISE!
No that's not it. Oh right.
BUMBUMBUM. A CLIFFHANGER.