In the fifth episode of the fifth series of Doctor Who, the Doctor, Amy, and River Song face an impossible situation as they are surrounded by the Weeping Angels. Surprisingly, the “crack†in Amy’s wall from the series’ opener is actually explained. WHAT. If you’re intrigued, then it’s time for Mark to watch Doctor Who.
HOLY GOD, WHAT AN EPISODE OF TELEVISION. Seriously, I don’t know if I could pick a single moment from “Flesh and Stone†as my favorite. I did not expect this second half of the story to be even more relentless and intense than the first, but there are so many moments where I held my breath in horror or tears welled in my eyes. Like I felt during “The Eleventh Hour,†Doctor Who just seems so fresh and new these days, and this episode is Moffat not only giving us a thrilling episode full of fright, but he shows that he can do emotionally huge drama like Russell T Davies was known for.
For once, I really like the resolution of the cliffhanger; it didn’t feel like it took away from the urgency of the situation, and as the camera revealed that the survivors were actually upside down, I had the goofiest grin on my face. YOU ARE BRILLIANT, DOCTOR. The thing that’s so great about this is that Moffat doesn’t wait a second to continue to up the stakes. In past two-part episodes, upon resolving the conflict, the episode usually settles into a much slower pace, allowing the characters to get into place for the finale. But in “Flesh and Stone,†there’s no waiting at all. The scenes of the remaining survivors doing their best to try and outrun the Weeping Angels are simply amazing, most especially the hauntingly quiet moment when the Doctor realizes he’ll have to ask everyone to turn their lights off in order for them to move deeper into the ship. I love that Father Octavian asks River if she trusts this man with her life, amid the din and terror of the situation, because it did not suggest later events near the resolution of the episode.
I worried that we’d have to deal with another story of the Doctor and his companions trapped inside of a spaceship with aliens trying to attack them, but, again, unbelievably unprepared. I was so unprepared. The Doctor reveals that there is an oxygen factory, a LITERAL MACHINE FOREST, on board the starship. And I really have to praise Moffat for this. Taking the episode to this new set really injects a completely different tone to the rest of the story. Many of the moments where Weeping Angels flash into place behind trees and creeping around bushes are among the best images this show has ever produced. The actual coloring is exciting, too, which is probably a weird thing to pick up on, but the earthy tones and the unsettling lighting of this place create an unending sense of gloom to what’s happening on screen.
But out of everything that happens during “Flesh and Stone,†it’s the crack in the wall that most surprised me. (Well….ok, maybe the final scene did. We’ll get there.)
As it appeared on the wall of the Byzantium, I knew that it would be impossible to ignore it. I mean…IT’S RIGHT THERE. AND IT IS HUGE. The Doctor orders everyone out as he begins to investigate and WHAT. WHAT. It is literally leaking time?!?!?!?! I mean, how many times have we heard the phrase, “Time is running out� AND HOW MANY TIMES WAS IT EVER LITERAL? Oh god, Moffat, you are a genius can I bake you some cookies
The thing is, this season’s “theme†or endgame was seeded fairly obviously throughout these episodes, but this is the first time that it’s been addressed so blatantly before the final two episodes of the series. I was taken entirely offguard by Moffat’s script because I assumed the pattern would be the same as it always was: hint towards the finale, don’t explain anything until episode eleven or twelve. OH HEY, THIS IS EPISODE FIVE AND THE CRACK CONSUMES TIME. It’s why Amy didn’t remember the Daleks or other details of her life and it’s why we watch the other soldiers quickly forget that their fellow clerics ever existed. Which is a terrifying thought, by the way. Somehow, though, Moffat compounds this with Amy’s slow conversion due to the Weeping Angel inside of her. Has counting down ever been so disturbing?
“Flesh and Stone†doesn’t just excel with a fantastic story, though. Both Karen Gillan and Matt Smith have some of their best-acted scenes in series five so far. (I must say, too, that Alex Kingston and Iain Glen provide more-than-satisfactory assistance in this regard as well, but I’ll get to them later.) As the Doctor realizes the severity of Amy’s situation, he knows he’ll have to leave her behind to find a solution. I found their parting scene so unbelievably raw, especially for two actors who are only on their fifth episode together. It’s undeniable that Matt and Karen have possibly the best chemistry between a Doctor and his companion yet, and it’s a testament to their remarkable talent that it’s taken them so little time to build a genuine, believable rapport.
But I have to say: The Doctor saying goodbye to Father Octavian is UTTER BRILLIANCE. That look on his face when he knows that Octavian is going to die is so goddamn real. It last but a second, coming right before Matt Smith’s eyes well up with tears, and it is one of the most powerful images this show has ever given us. And as cheesy as it might actually be, Father Octavian’s parting words are poetic and bittersweet.
For Karen Gillan, though, it’s being placed in an impossible situation that truly makes her shine, and I have no qualms about stating that I know I will already love her as a companion this early into her run. Not only does she have to literally be in the dark throughout a good portion of this episode, she plays up the physical aspect of her situation with incredible skill. The scene where she has to navigate to the Byzantium with her eyes closed, but acting as if she can see, is riveting, well-acted and logistically completely nightmare fuel. AGAIN.
Goddamn, I love this show.
I didn’t feel like the end of this part of the story was anti-climactic either, as we get a full explanation for the “crack.†Caused by an explosion in time on June 26, 2010, the crack rewrites time as it expands and as the Angels rush to escape it, I found it a fitting end for the creatures that they were devoured by the time explosion in order to save Amy, River, and the Doctor. It’s one of those bits of wild science that would probably break down if I spent even five seconds thinking about it, but I’m in this to be entertained. I don’t necessarily hold Doctor Who to the same rigorous standards as most science fiction I consume.
As we bid goodbye to River Song, certain that she will return again, we find out she killed a man and was always under the watch of the clerics, traveling to Alfava Metraxis to hopefully earn a pardon. I mean…that can’t be the Doctor she killed in his future/her past, right? Sooooooo…..what? She then names the next moment we will see her: when the “Pandorica†opens, which is now the second time we’ve heard that phrase. How does that relate to the time explosion crack, and why does the Doctor believe it’s a fairy tale?
Truthfully, though, I don’t think any of us expected the closing scene of “Flesh and Stone.†Understandably so, after a truly awful experience, Amy asks to be taken home to recuperate and attend her wedding to Rory. OMG SHE IS MARRYING RORY! THAT IS SO ADORABLE OMG MORE RORY. What makes absolutely no sense, though, is Amy expressing sexual feelings for the Doctor. We’ve never seen anyone kiss the Doctor like that before. I mean, I liked the distinction Amy made that she wasn’t in love with the Doctor; she merely wanted a make out party. MAKE OUT PARTIES ARE AWESOME. But why now? Why is she acting this way?
The episode ends with the Doctor whisking Amy away when he realizes the date: June 25th, 2010. The time explosion is THE VERY NEXT DAY.
What the holy fuck, you guys.
THOUGHTS
- “I’ll do a thing.†“What thing?†“I don’t know! It’s a thing in progress! Respect the thing.â€
- “I’m 907 years old. Do you understand what that means?†“It’s been awhile?â€
- “A forest in a bottle in a spaceship in a maze. Have I impressed you yet, Amy Pond?â€
- I love Matt Smith and Karen Gillan so much. SO MUCH.
Here is my thoughts on Amy attempting to seduce the Doctor:
They just went through a horrible, life-threatening experience. Of all the episodes so far, THIS is as up close and personal to death as she ever got. One of the most natural and human responses to being close to death and living is to affirm life- with sex. She's also 21, and Eleven is pretty. It's a perfectly natural human reposnse. it does not make her a slut, it does not not make her anything other than the most human of humans. (JACOB FROM TWOP, I AM FUCKING TALKING TO YOU. Seriosuly, his review of this part of the episode is some of his most fucking misogynistic BS EVER. And there's a LOT of misogynisitc tripe from him.)
So I have no problem with it whatsoever. And I'll defend Amy's right to be a sexual being to all comers.
Yeah, this is basically my view of it. She just went through a traumatic, life-threatening experience and wants to enjoy being alive. It's not even that she's in love with Eleven, I think – it's just that he's good-looking and there and the person who was with her during that experience.
(I am also looking at you, Jacob from TWoP. SIDE EYEING SO HARD.)
Jacob is the worst reviewer in the history of reviewers. I hate that he keeps getting show that I love, because I cannot stomach his posts.
Ugh. Jacob. I can't read anything he writes without being sent into a rage, so I avoid it now. He is a misogynistic ASS.
One of the only genuine fights I've gotten into on the internet was with people who kept defending him to me in the wake of me pulling out direct quotes of him saying horribly misogynistic things and then using the phrase "bipolar bullshit".
(Funnily enough, the only other ones I've gotten into have involved defending either Susan Pevensie or Amy Pond, I believe.)
That "bipolar bullshit" comment was the very very last straw for me with that asshole. I already was side-eying him pretty damn hard, and then that sent me over the edge. I want to break things (preferably his face).
Which is a shame because I loved his reviews for S1 and S2 of Who then got REALLY excited to see he was going to do S5 only to be totally let down by his refusal to budge from his preconceived ideas about Amy and, basically, reviewing the whole sodding series to fit those ideas. Which was kinda funny when we got to the halfway point and it became very clear that Moffat was doing something that Jacob wasn't expecting and the whole thing fell down around his ears.
Aaaaaand breathe.
I do not have enough Sanity Watchers points to even go to TWOP. I don't think there's enough Sanity Watchers points IN THE WORLD.
(Sanity Watchers points, basically, are a measurement of how much you can take from the Internet before you start losing your central self and become one of the ranting hatespewing hordes. This xkcd comic dude is an example of someone down to his last few Sanity Watchers points.)
I agree with you. TWOP really irritates me sometimes.
Yeah, so agreed. Just argh.
If I stay out of the forums, for the most part the recaps aren't infuriating so much as just plain eh. I even gave up on the Chuck recaps, they're so desultory. Basically, I miss having Couch Baron recap my show, which was the case back in the Veronica Mars days and which only enhanced the fun. Couch Baron, come back to recapping Chuck! And every other show I watch! 😛
I'm going to say THIS to everything you said.
TBH I gave up on reading Jacob's reviews because they were SO DAMN LONG.
THIS. Also, not only was she in a life-threatening situation, but IT WAS THE DOCTOR WHO SAVED HER (basically. I mean, obviously she was hardly passive, but still). There is no person more attractive than the guy who's just saved your life.
Especially if the said person is your imaginary childhood friend you've been fantasising about your whole life… 😛
I think it's the life-threatening experience on top of cold feet. She's only 21! And getting married! And all of a sudden she's whisked off on a space-time adventure with her childhood imaginary friend! Shit is fucked up and I don't blame her at all for trying to seduce the Doctor. Amy's not my fav companion ever, but I HAAAAATE when people call her a slut. Sure, maybe she's kind of slow and a bit more sexually charged than the other companions, but i don't think she deserves all that hate.
(who is this Jacob person? do I want to google what he wrote? probably not…)
Television Without Pity (aka twop) is a website where people review episodes of TV. Jacob is a reviewer. Many people hate Jacob, although many love him. I also generally dislike his writing style, in addition to my frowny face at his views, but the writing thing is a pretty variable opinion, so you may enjoy some of his reviews so long as they aren't covered in his bullshit.
EDIT: And I totally agree with you on the cold feet thing – I think Amy may have always been fancying the idea of sexytimes with Eleven, especially since she's getting married and that's scary given her commitment/abandonment issues, so perhaps the life and death thing pushed her to act, but I think there's more to it than just 'omg not dead'.
thanks!
He reviews a number of shows at televisionwithoutpity.com. He goes of on random philosphical tangents, which for Battlestar Galactica was FINE- it's a layered show. But he has problems with women, fat people, mentally disabled people, physically disabled people, people he doesn't agree with, and people who disagree with him and GOD HELP YOU if you are in more than one of those catagories.
Thanks! I looked up his Flesh and Stone review and got up to "We see no problem using Amy as a stand-in for the hypothetical audience's hypothetical retardedness" and stopped reading -_-
That's about how far I got. I skipped to the end to see if it got any better, and it didn't.
I actually got through page three. I kept trying to justify him in my head. "Ok, everyone makes some sort of offensive slur every once in a while. If I disliked everyone who ever did it, I wouldn't like any comedians." Then it got to "Ok, so he doesn't like an episode that I like. That's fine." Then he kept talking about other episodes of the show "Wait. Does he even like the show at all? Well, maybe he doesn't. I can't dislike someone for having a different opinion than me." Then I started to realize that he didn't actually give a reason for disliking the episode. He was just constantly being a jerk.
He did bring up the ONLY problem I had with this episode (aside from the thing with Amy at the end, but it's for different reasons than he has, and it will be better explained in a different episode). I really don't like seeing the angels move. It ruins them for me a little bit. But it's a small problem, and I got over it, because I know that some people have different opinions than me, and a lot of people thought it made them even scarier.
I just want to make it clear that I don't find offensive slurs ok. They are wrong and, well, offensive. I'm just saying that in the first thing I've ever read by someone, I'm not going to immediately judge them on it. A lot of people make them without realizing it. If someone pointed out that it was offensive to them, and they kept doing it, or if they used it in a hateful way, that's a completely different story. The fact of the matter is, a lot of people seem to think that "retard" is a synonym for "stupid" and unless someone has told them otherwise, I don't like to judge them (although I usually will be the one to tell them otherwise.)
And from what I've heard, this guy has been told that "retard" isn't an ok thing to say. So I now feel completely comfortable hating him for that.
I gotcha. 🙂
There's nothing wrong with being a slut. It's when you use it as an insult that it becomes misogynystic. So uh yeah just sayin.
The word is loaded with misogyny, though, and you can't just edit that out when you feel like it. If you're reclaiming the word, that's great, but it holds too many negative connotations for most people to be a perfectly permissible word.
Making out with someone randomly does not make you a slut. Cheating on your fiance makes you a slut. Cut the third-wave feminism nonsense.
I agree with everything you just said! But I must add my two cents: I also feel like this attraction to Eleven is part of her personality.
I'm not saying it's in her personality to be attracted to other men and cheat on Rory. Not at all. I'm saying she's using this as another means of escape, because she likes to displace reality. She went with the doctor on those adventures to run away from her wedding for a little while, just because she could. I don't think she has doubts about marrying Rory, she's just as nervous as anyone else would be. So, after the traumatizing events with the Angels, she wants to go home, but she still isn't ready to face her real life quite yet.
That's why she wants to have sex with the Doctor. She is grateful to have him, is thankful that she's been through so much with him, and he's always been her means of escape. Even when she was little, he was her imaginary friend long after he had gone, no matter what anyone else said.
So, that's my opinion of it anyway.
you also have to remember that she's been crushing on the doctor for years and years.
I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU <3 <3 <3 I need more upvotes for this!
Can I add one more factor to this (which I agree with 100% btw)? Every SINGLE authority figure in her life has left her or let her down. Her parents are gone, her Aunt is borderline negligent (and nowhere to be seen when Amy's just 19), the Doctor has run out on her twice… Rory hasn't let her down (as far as we know) but it's hardly surprising that she's worried about really letting him into her life. Now put on top of that the Doctor just pretty much blew that idea of "you can't rely on anyone but yourself and anyone you do start to care about while abandon you' away (in a very litteral way, she doesn't know that it was River who got the teleport working and the Doctor DID aplogise and say he made a mistake by leaving her) AND all the OP's points and yeah, can't blame her for wanting one last fling.
Exactly, and combined with the fact that she's been fantasising about the Doctor he whole childhood…
Thumbs up!!!
I love Amy's confidence.
UGH that recap from Jacob was astoundingly offensive. As someone who has been abused as a child I'd just like to say fuck him.
THIS. Though, I have no idea who this Jacob from TWOP (or what TWOP is frankly) is and from comments here it sounds like I don't want to know.
I also would like to add what someone else pointed out, she has/had a sort of childhood crush on the Doctor for years. I think she's only starting to realize he's not quite the mystical perfect hero she made him out to be in her dreams. I kind of think these previous eps served as kind of a wake up call for her though but that doesn't make attraction automatically go away either.
Still a horrible thing to do to your fiancee the night before your wedding though, she's not a slut but she's kind of a horrible person to Rory.
I have to agree with this. I have no problem with Amy being sexual, I would just prefer that she do it with Rory, the man she's engaged to marry in a day.
Oh, absolutely, that's a separate thing. I don't think anyone here is saying that what Amy was doing was right. But it is understandable.
I wonder. I've read the controversy over this scene in a lot of places, and the issue is never her cheating on her fiance. Hardly anyone ever mentions that being messed up, and her being messed up for doing it. I have less fun with tv shows when the people I'm supposed to root for are dislikable.
I'm not calling Amy a slut at all. Nor am I calling anyone who attends such things as make out parties a slut.
However, is there still respect for being in a committed relationship and only feeling desire for that one person? Hm.. i phrased that badly, my apologies. ..I don't know if it's just that I have no sex drive, but I personally am very uncomfortable with the idea of being unfaithful and even if a person wasn't in a committed relationship, being with someone I wasn't in a relationship with ( a one night stand..) or being with numerous people one after another. Coming out of a very traumatic breakup that I am in no way, shape or form ready to give up on, people have been telling me to go out and find a new guy, go out and flirt.
I find that hurtful and insulting to me and to the love I feel for this man who has unfortunately chosen to break my heart. I feel like no one in my life (not here. No one here has expressed these views) is respecting my love for or respecting my desire and choice to continue loving him and not to look at other men in that way, not to consider dating again. No one is.. saying they admire me for forgiving him, for saying I want him back even after he left me for another girl and lied to both of us about it, no one is admiring the fact I truly love him.
Again No one here at Mark Watches is doing that, and again, Not calling Amy a slut – I'm just uncomfortable with being sexual outside of a committed relationship, or really.. feeling any attraction outside of your relationship.
I'm just wondering.. you people who support a person's sexual freedom, and I do too, how do you feel on the whole.. aspect of being attracted, being sexual outside of your relationship, if you are in one? Not in the 'Amy's a slut' aspect, but more so.. on that.. do you frown on it? Do you admire it? Are you neutral and more in the line of 'it's their own business.'
Just curious, not really relating to the episode. More so just gathering.. opinions kinda? Part of me wants to go out and flirt with guys, try and get myself a new boyfriend, or try and make him jealous but another part of me feels incredibly guilty and sad whenever I think those things because I'm, in a way, betraying the guy I love.
Well, as I'm Poly, I guess you can see where I'm comign from on that front.
For me sex and romantic love have always been fairly seperate, and as a result, I;ve slept around a lot. The best sex xomes from love, but sex without love is awesome in a completely different way.
The best way I can describe it as this: Sex is a gift. It doesn;t belong to any one person, only you can choose who to give it to. It's infinitely refilling, and always there. It means more, when given to people you care about, and less when it's not. But as for the 'rules' of that caring? There aren't any. And no-one but you can judge on whether you're giving it 'appropriately' or not.
Some people are more driven sexually, others are less. The important thing to remember is just because you don;t understand what they;re doing doesn;t mean it;s bad to do.
Well, there's "having respect for someone only having desire for one person" and there's "having respect for someone's agency in making their own sexual choices." Those two things aren't mutually exclusive, and indeed, should exist together in a perfect world. Your situation is yours and how you chose to deal with it is your business. And, due respect, it has nothing to do with Amy and her situation. And if someone wants to be sexually involved with a succession of people or more than one person at once, as long as everyone involved is consenting, there is nothing wrong with that. And it has no effect on you or your choices or me or my choices.
Now, as for "being attracted to someone outside your relationship", THAT HAPPENS. If you define monogamy on never being attracted to anyone except the person you're with, you're going to have a rough go of it. If you define monogamy as "Accepting that attraction to other people happens, and not acting on it, even though that's bloody hard work" that is a much more realistic view. It's not easy, and expecting it to be easy ("If he really loved me, he wouldn't even look at other women") is going to harm people in the long run. If monogamy were easy, the infidelity rate wouldn't be so high.
Is it a shitty thing to do to Rory? Yeah. But it's not because she's a slut, but because she has been traumatized by the Angels and by her entire life of abandonment- she's a queen of self-sabotage. And she's terrified of marrying and becoming a grown-up in that way.
Go. Flirt. You don't have to do anything beyond flirting unless and until you're ready.
Thanks, Redhead, for your comment
Yup, I don't view Amy as a slut. Never have and she isn't. What people have been saying is correct, she's been through one hell of a ride and yes, the Doctor is there and is very handsome. I don't blame her for that, or for him. It's interesting to note the abandonment part. I would almost think her to be more hesitant, more afraid that the Doctor would still abandon her even after this and thus not have kissed him. Maybe it's more of a.. he followed through on his initial promise, even after so long, and maybe there's relief in there too?
And yeah, Monogamy is.. hard and attraction outside of the relationship does happen. I admit to breaking up with my first boyfriend because I kissed another guy, but I still feel incredibly guilty about that and it's been 6 years. He came into the store where I worked a while ago.. came to my line.. and I was a red faced, stammering fool, I couldn't look him in the eye. I just wanted to get out of there even though he was a jovial as I remember him, didn't mention anything. I promised myself I wouldn't do that ever again because of the guilt.
I guess with the attraction outside of a relationship.. Sure, I could look at a guy and say he was handsome.. but with my last relationship and the two before it, I don't remember ever getting that.. weak stomach feeling you get, that flush of red to your face of attraction so that can certainly affect my opinions and how I phrased things. Thank you again for your reply.
There are not enough upvotes in the world for this comment.
Thank yoouuu. You worded exactly what I was trying to say, but so much more eloquently!
Very well said!
pt 1
It's really up to you. If a woman wants to have an open relationship, that's her choice and there isn't anything wrong with it, just like there isn't anything wrong with wanting a monogamous relationship either. I don't frown on either thing really. Both are understandable. But I also look at "dating" and a "relationship" as two very different things typically– in my mind, dating means you're not committed to each other, you can go out and flirt with and date as many people as you want, no big deal (dating means you're getting to know one another better, trying it out, see if you're compatible or not– so why get tied down to something you're not even sure will last beyond the getting-to-know-you stage?), but if you're in a committed relationship with someone, unless you declare it an open relationship, it's wrong to cheat on that person and I do frown on cheating. Not because of any sexuality or anything, but because it's a huge betrayal of trust for the person you're cheating on.
pt 2
It's like, if you wanted to sleep/snog/etc with more than one person, you should have either asked for an open relationship or just broken up with the person. Everyone is entitled to their own preferences.
Amy trying to snog the Doctor was wrong, yes, and she was flawed for doing so, but it was an understandable and human reaction to the trauma she went through. But calling her a slut for it is incredibly misogynistic because it is a term used to control and shame a woman's sexuality; not only that, but it makes it out like having a healthy sex life for a woman is a bad thing. It was bad of Amy to betray Rory, but you should focus on that betrayal of trust itself and not the sexuality involved. You can determine Amy's fault without relying on misogynistic and hurtful terms.
Does that make sense?
pt 3
As for your relationship, that's really none of my business and you should do what feels right. If the break-up was recent, then give your heart some time to heal. It sounds like you're hurting. Maybe a one night stand or two would help, maybe, if you're that kind of person, but it'd only numb the pain for a short amount of time if you're still attached to the guy. Just give yourself a break from romance for a few months and then see if you're ready to start over again. That's my suggestion, but then again I don't know you or your ex personally so I can't really say if it's good advice or not.
Thank you Meeee. 😀 I shall write but I have an errand to run to the store and I've been putting it off for hours..
I dont have much experiance with relationships so I cant way in on you question, but about your friends encouraging you to find a new guy: Personally I encouraged my best friend to get out there again because it would mean I didnt have to bury the other guy. i still think I should but since she is ok I know I dont need to. So I am thinking that they just want you to be happy.
I feel like it's incredibly unrealistic to not feel any attraction whatsoever outside your relationship. The point of being in a faithful relationship is not to ACT on attraction you have to other people–but other human beings don't just stop being attractive because you're with someone.
Obviously Amy DID act on her attraction to the Doctor, which is not excusable, but understandable, I think, for reasons others have gone into at length already. 🙂
…which apparently someone else said as well. Oh well! 🙂
I'm just uncomfortable with being sexual outside of a committed relationship
Just have to point out that one can have a 'committed' relationship within the constructs of polyamory, just as one can in monogamy. I think you just mean sex outside of a *monogamous* relationship. Sorry, I'm poly myself and that is just a personal pet peeve of mine when people say we're not in 'committed' relationships, as I'm *very* committed to all of my partners.
Anyway…sorry for the tangent…
Being in an open relationship myself, it is very easy for me to be attracted to people outside of my primary (and other) relationship. It feels more natural to me personally and I think that even in a monogamous relationship it is not neccessarily A Bad Thing. What can be bad, though, is breaking the rules within said monogamous relationship and cheating on your partner (which, by the way, can happen in poly and is just as bad — as, in poly, everything is supposed to be 'out in the open').
(cont)
I personally have mixed feelings about that scene with Amy and the Doctor. On the one hand I am happy that she is expressing her sexuality and taking what she wants, but on the other, I worry about what that means for her relationship with Rory. Does Rory let her play on the side (or do they both?)? Is this okay in their relationship? If it is, that's all good (swingers do this often, using a 'you can play, but don't get attached' sort of rule but, like with poly people, nothing is done behind someone's back*), but if it isn't, yeah…
* [There can be exceptions to this rule, of course. Like, for example, with my primary partner, we have a deep trust in our relationship, so we've evolved to a point where we don't need permission beforehand when being with someone else (i.e. we don't have to ask before doing something), but it's a given that we will be very safe in said situation and tell one another it happened the next time we talk. So, perhaps Amy planned on telling Rory afterward, had something happened? (Which we won't go into too much due to spoilers, of course, but I was just speaking hypothetically).]
All that! Also, it's her basically her bridal shower. I was giving some lenience to the people who complained that she was about to get married and should be faithful, until I went, "Hang on, and exactly WHAT is Rory doing at this very moment?" Because if guys are allowed strippers, I figure girls are allowed one last fling with their imaginary friend, especially after almost turning into a statue.
I stopped reading the TWoP reviews way back when my main gripe with Jacob was that he was too convinced of his own intelligence. Am now glad I did.
Oh I can't agree with this enough! I need more Powers of Agreeing!
I quite liked some of his early reviews but then he got all 'See! See how clever I am! Just see!' and to be honest, I don't think that he is. Somewhere it crossed a line where I started to feel embarrassed on his behalf. That and uncomfortable.
And then, having abandoned largelyTWOP, I logged in one day to read his take on Season 5 and Amy. Ugh no. No thank you at all.
And adding to my previous comment – of course it's possible that Rory Would Never Go There. But I doubt it.
I, on the other hand, have big huge problems with it. I hate cheaters with a burning passion. I don't care what kind of excuses someone has, if they cheat on their SO, they are in the wrong. Trying to seduce the Doctor is not in itself what I find so awful, it's the fact that she was trying to cheat on her fiance the night before her wedding. She held no respect for Rory in that moment and was fully prepared to drag his feelings and commitment to her through the mud. All the love I had gained for Amy was lost in that scene. How can I respect someone who would do something so horrible to their loved one?
None of what you said makes any difference to me. Even if she did want to reaffirm her life through sex all she had to do was find her fiance. But she stated very clearly that she wanted to get with the Doctor in particular. Okay, fine. You want to get with the Doctor and leave your old boyfriend behind, Amy? TALK TO HIM FIRST!
No, Amy is by no means a slut or horrible for wanting to seduce the Doctor. But she WAS being a horrible person to someone who loved her and I won't forgive that.
People do stupid things sometimes. I cheated on a boyfriend once. I regretted it instantly, and have never cheated again. (it's not cheating if he knows about and cheers me on)
It's a nasty, ugly thing to do but I have sympathy cause I feel like I know why she's doing it.
People are fallible, news at eleven(ty).
A person's perceived fidelity is a precarious thing to hinge your respect on, I'm just saying.
AGREED 100%!
I don't even think Amy would have considered it "cheating". Aside from the whole extraordinary circumstances, stress and near death, the Doctor has ALWAYS been an obsession in her life. We know that, her imaginary friend. he's not real. He's not real life. So sex wiht him wouldn not count. The running off, it's like running from reality, and after everything she's faced, it's like a fling with this person whose implicated in this entire other world. Before returning to reality and her commitment to Rory. I think it's this detachment, seperating his world and reality, is the issue the Doctor may want to see to.
There's also the fact that it's the night before her wedding and she still has cold feet. I think she kind of wanted to have one last fling. She ran because she wasn't ready to get married, after all.
THANK YOU. I am behind this comment forever.
SO MUCH THIS. *applauds*
Yeah, Jacob never said any of that. What he said was that the show treated her that way, as an object, as it had all along. He may have said it in a way that triggered you — or more likely, your heroism — but he was agreeing with you. Cheers on being self-righteous without regard to evidence, though. You must really be a favorite at your local hero hangout.
I'm not sure anyone an upvote this enough.
Matt Smith and Karen Gillan are by far my favourite duo to front this show and it's because they show so much energy and, like you say, they have an incredible rapport. It just feels so right.
It's only a month until the new series starts (in the UK; I don't know when you get it in America) and they just released a teaser clip for it this morning. I can. not. wait.
They get it on the same day 😀 how good is that!
I'm totally jealous though, it took 6 seasons of Lost for the UK to catch up with America (culminating with WAKING UP AT 5AM FOR THE AMAZING SIMULCAST!!!!) and only five series of Doctor Who! 😛
That's awesome! We can have, like, a massive all-day liveblog! I'm sure that somehow Mark will be one of three people commenting on the West Coast.
WAAAAAT? We have to wait forever for American shows! Gutted. But also, having a live-blog sounds incredible so I guess it's all good 🙂
Is there any way for us to get it that does not involve cable tv/BBC America do you know?
No other legal way, as far as I know. I don't think BBCA streams it on their website. There's always pirating, though.
Only 7 episodes though, then another 7 way in the future in Octoberish rather than one big chunk of 13 episodes one per week. I suspect alot of the scarier episodes will be in the second block so it'll be nice and dark out rather than sunny and warm.
But the new season of Torchwood starts July 18, which isn't that long after DW ends. So we'll have that to hold us over.
Actually, I like the split – means there will be two small waits for new episodes, rather than one big wait with only the Christmas Special to occupy us…
I LOVE THIS TWO-PARTER SO MUCH, I REALLY DO. And the one thing I didn't like – seeing the Angels move – turned into HORRIBLE FRIDGE HORROR OF HORROR.
See, I didn't like it because it went against what we'd been told before – that the audience freezes the Angels, breaking the fourth wall into terrifying wibbly-wobbly-ness – and in doing so took away some of the fear surrounding them.
But we're still stopping them. TV isn't instantaneous – they were moving in the milisecond gaps between frames. That noise is them freezing and unfreezing very rapidly.
I'm just going to go over here and shit bricks again quietly, thank you.
(By the way – everything that holds the image of an angel becomes an angel. Including, oh, anything you were watching Doctor Who on……………)
But we're still stopping them. TV isn't instantaneous – they were moving in the milisecond gaps between frames. That noise is them freezing and unfreezing very rapidly.
I KNOW OMG I KNOW OH CRAP I KNOW
……oh my god, this means that the Angel on the security cam was basically just fucking with Amy for shits and giggles it could have moved any time it wanted?????
SOMEONE HOLD ME.
Relevant paraphrase is relevant.
Doctor: Angel Bob, why are they making her count?
Angel Bob: To make her afraid, sir.
Doctor: Yeah, but why?
Angel Bob: For fun, sir.
YEAH. The fastest, most terrifying creatures in the Whoniverse and they had to be total dicks too.
Basically, The Moff deserves this gif forever.
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Also:
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Oh my god! Matt Smith's braces!
I love them so much!
I actually really liked seeing them move! It was a great surprise, and it brought some terror back into the story. We thought we had the Weeping Angels all figured out — HAHAHAHA.
But we're still stopping them. TV isn't instantaneous – they were moving in the milisecond gaps between frames. That noise is them freezing and unfreezing very rapidly.
……………
Don't mind me. I'll just be over here starting to literally tear up from how scary that is.
But we're still stopping them. TV isn't instantaneous – they were moving in the milisecond gaps between frames. That noise is them freezing and unfreezing very rapidly.
I'm just going to go over here and shit bricks again quietly, thank you.
Exactly! FUUUUUUUUU
Wow. That's some good fridge horror.
they were moving in the milisecond gaps between frames. That noise is them freezing and unfreezing very rapidly.
I love that fact so much. It's absolutely unnerving.
"But we're still stopping them. TV isn't instantaneous – they were moving in the milisecond gaps between frames."
fdbjkbjkahfbjhkadfbvhjabhjafdbjkfadbdjkflBJHKSEGBLSJDB. SHIT
Mark, I am so utterly excited for you and this season. 😀
This two-parter made me pee with excitement when I watched it the first time.
It. was. BRILLIANT.
"can I bake you some cookies"
Is the most apropriate response ever.
I just wrote a comment and it disappeared! Boo!
Oh well, I didn't say anything important in it anyway!
also, early review? AWESOME!
Forgot to say that I LOVED SEEING THE ANGELS MOVE!
It was so creepy!
And I've fanwanked my own personal head canon for why Amy pretending she can see them worked so all in all this episode= FLAWLESS imo 😀
ETA: This is also the episode that made me go from nerdy crush on Matt Smith as the Doctor to full on "OMG how freaking fit is this guy?!? I'll be in my bunk!" sentiment.
It was the shot of him and Amy standing far away looking at the sea that did it. The suspenders, the shoes and rolled up nerd trousers showing off Matt Smith's great arse? yes please!
I was so distracted by Matt Smith's bum in that shot that I DIDN'T REALISE KAREN WAS STANDING NEXT TO HIM. I've been searching for that shot to put as a desktop background for ages and kept getting annoyed that there were none of him on his own. I didn't realise there was never a shot of him on his own! Damn my weakness for a good bum!
Early reviews make me a sad panda. Really enjoy the build up to Mark's reviews and early reviews sorta feel like finding all your presents weeks before Christmas before they're even wrapped. Still cool but…
I like them, it means that I get to Mark (that's a verb now) during lunch instead of after school 😀
ONOZ THE CRACK IN TIME IS HERE, EATING COMMENTS! RUN!
"I mean, I liked the distinction Amy made that she wasn’t in love with the Doctor; she merely wanted a make out party. MAKE OUT PARTIES ARE AWESOME. But why now? Why is she acting this way?"
FULLY WITH YOU ON YOUR APPROVAL OF MAKE-OUT PARTIES VS TRAGIC UNREQUITED LOVE ET CETERA and also to answer your question i just think that's because she's 21, he's hot, and she's ABOUT TO GET MARRIED AND THAT IS SCARY AND SHE IS TWENTY-ONE AND HE IS HOT. i don't think it's much more complicated than that, tbh. and i mean, it's not like she's really had time to hit on him before now, what with running around SAVING THE WORLD ET CETERA.
also JFC RIVER SONG ILU SO MUCH. i mean honestly i am just full of sunshine and overflowing with flowers and deeply overwhelmed with my love for like THIS SERIES AS A WHOLE AND MOST ESPECIALLY MATT SMITH AND AMY POND AND RIVER SONG and omg wait am i supposed to say things that are coherent and such as not gonna happen
:DD I LIKE YOU FOR THIS COMMENT.
god this season made me so happy. I can't even, I was just sitting there every Saturday going "OMG OMG CAN I GET IT YET CAN I"
Agreed. I think Amy had the words of Billy Shipton running through her brain: Life is short, and you are hot.
…Aaaaaand now is the time that I attempt to write Crackfic about Billy/Amy.
Seriously. They need to meet and have a cuppa or something.
As part of Rory's nurse training, he gets sent to a hospital in London for a month. Amy misses him and wants to visit him (and go to London). So she goes there and sees Billy Shipton sitting in his bed all alone in the hospital. She asks Rory about him and he says he's got no family or whatever. Amy is especially touched because she knows how it feels to be alone. So she talks to him. Yep. Someone make this happen please because I can't write fanfics. :p
…
…
…
-heads off to Word- Be back in a mo!
Anyone who tries to shame Amy for smootching on the Doctor can familiarize themselves with the left-hand evacuation procedure. Make out parties for everyone!
Now that that's over… TERRIFYING SCARY EPISODE SOMEONE PLEASE TURN ON ALL THE LIGHTS AND WATCH MY BACK WHILE I SLEEP but not in a vampire breaking into my house to watch me sleep kind of way because that would also be creepy. Not only can you not take your eyes off the Angels or else you get Lonely Assassinated, you can't even look at a picture of one? CAN'T WIN FOR LOSING OMG. And with HDTV and large screens and crap— how do you know if it's a real Angel or just an image?!? SHOULD I HIDE UNDER A BLANKET OR NOT BLINK I DON'T KNOW OMG.
Early review, huh Mark?
I really, really love this two-parter. One of my favorites by far. It's got Eleven/Pond, the angels, a fantastic setting in both parts (caves and forests, two of the creepiest places to encounter the angels), drama, and some good old-fashioned twists.
Moffat did a good job expanding on the Weeping Angel's mythos without detracting from their creepiness. The whole "doors to the soul" thing beautifully complements the quantum lock logistics.
Mark, here's one of the unreleased scenes which bridges the gap between this episode and the next: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAI7ZcIbzw4
It's even more fantastic than the one between Eleventh Hour/Beast Below. Lots of tasty character development for Amy and Eleven.
…
Never let me talk. :: runs into forest::
:: returns from forest ::
So many great lines this episode.
The Doctor: I wish I'd known you better.
Octavian: I think, sir, you've known me at my best.
Amy: Okay, so we've basically run up the inside of a chimney, yeah? So what if the gravity fails?
The Doctor: I've thought about that.
Amy: And?
The Doctor: And we'll all plunge to our deaths. See? I've thought about it.
The Doctor: I think they've forgotten where they're standing. I think they've forgotten the gravity of the situation.
Oh, I forgot to mention that unreleased scene. So far I have not connected with Eleven all that much, and with Amy even less so, but man do I get close with these "missing" scenes. I wish there was more of that in the actual episodes!
I love that scene!
"Space Gandalf…or the little green one in Star Wars *vwoom*"
Oh and "Thanks dear, miss out the metal dog why don't you?" Doctor/TARDIS OTP!
Oh and "Thanks dear, miss out the metal dog why don't you?" Doctor/TARDIS OTP!
FOREVER AND ALWAYS!
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Thank you, Amy, for pointing out HOW CREEPY the Doctor can be! I mean, if he ended up in my backyard I wouldn't say no to a space-time adventure, but to an outsider, it DEFINITELY sounds sketchy
He must be trying not to explode IntenseDebate again. 😀
Yeah, if you're going to be bring back terrifying monsters, this is the way to do it. Expand upon their story, add new twists, and it's effective as hell. They're scary in whole new ways!
Oh good, I'm glad you posted the scene! I just noticed it again on my DVD and watched it partially to enjoy it again and partially to see if it actually had anything spoilery in it or not. I was wondering if we could post it here or not.
Anyway, that's my favorite of the two extra scenes and think almost every bit is perfect (I don't love that the Doctor gets so easily tricked into unlocking the pictures, but I guess I am okay with it because it shows Amy's cleverness and the Doctor's ego). I absolutely LOVE how he says "maybe slightly…a little bit over?" in response to Amy 🙂
Aaaah early review, not ready omg.
Main thought: I LOVE THIS EPISODE.
I mentioned back in my Blink comment that I found the Weeping Angels more interesting than scary. That was true through Blink and Time of angels and continued to be true right up until the first Angel turned her head towards Amy at which point I screamed my damn head off.We're so used to them being still that to suddenly see them moving is so WRONG, VERY WRONG and terrifying when they finally do move. I have to give Amy so much credit for that section. She's absolutely terrified, can't see and trying to make it through a forest. I'd have been flat on my face a lot sooner than she was tbh.
The second scariest part IMHO is the shot of amy with AN ANGEL IN HER EYE JFC creepy as all hell.
One of my absolute favourite scenes of this series is the brief one between Eleven and Amy when he leaves her in the forest, the "You have to start trusting me.." one. It's probably just me but Eleven's bumping his head against hers (which he also did in the previous ep) is incredibly sweet to me, the kiss on the forehead is just icing on the cake.
I know it's meant as a little throw forward/backward to Forest of the Dead but "You, me, handcuffs…" just sent my brain straight into the gutter. God bless you River.
"One of my absolute favourite scenes of this series is the brief one between Eleven and Amy when he leaves her in the forest. "You have to start trusting me"."
It was *so* sweet and I think it really sums up their relationship in a beautiful way.
A;SLKDHGLDKGHD FOREHEAD. TOUCHING.
IRONCLAD BATTLESHIP TROPE FOR ME.
SERIOUSLY IT'S SO SCARY. And it takes you a minute to focus in on her eye in the shot and see the angel there.
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Here's a thing–
People like to ship the Doctor and his companion. I think here is where Moffat goes, "Okay, we know that Amy had a huge crush on the Doctor her entire life– so much so that she had her boyfriend dress up as him. So here you go, fandom, see what would happen if your ship came true."
And it's definitely disappointing and sad. And you realize that no, no this is not what should happen. Amy might have been crushing on the Doctor forever, but the Doctor would never ever ever allow himself to be in this relationship. Not to mention, it's just sort of wrong in a wrong unnerving way.
I never thought of Amy as a slut, and I am sad that so many people did.
That is a REALLY good point. This is a good comment and you should feel good.
Upvote for both of you! <3
I really think that the younger generation of Doctor Who fans like to ship the Doctor and his companion. I don't see a lot of the older fans shipping anyone. I don't ship a companion and the Doctor, granted I've only begun watching the show with Eccelston. It's the teenage kids who have to ship every character of every show ever.
And it bothers me.
I actually don't think this is accurate. I mean, I'm not an old Who fan myself, but I know several and they ship the Doctor with his companions pretty fine without any help from teenagers. (Doctor/Romana is a particularly popular ship.) So the shipping the Doctor thing really isn't new at all.
No, actually, this was such an issue back in the Davison era that people were talking about who was sleeping with whom, so they wound up doing some scenes showing that, yes, the Companions (there were two or three, depending) had separate bedrooms.
Ain't nothin' new under the Fandom Sun, yo.
I really want to see the bedrooms! Not to prove or disprove shipping (it sucks that they had to do that), but because I want MOAR TARDIS.
This! Apparently there was an old Who episode that was just the Doctor and companions running through the TARDIS? I would like more of that, plzkthx.
I would love a TARDIS only episode. There is so much to explore!
I KNOW! I NEED THIS IN MY LIFE!
That sounds WONDERFUL. The TARDIS is a source of endless awesome. We should get to experience that fully.
And you know, it might not even be super expensive budget-wise, because you could just film a bunch of random locations and like “yep, totally all inside the TARDIS.” I mean, it's a pocket universe. It could have anything.
Yeah, Moffat himself said in the ToA commentary that such an episode would make the people in charge of the budget weep with joy (context was him and Karen Gillan discussing how funny/great it'd be to have an entire episode where they never actually leave the TARDIS because they keep starting to but never make it, just like how long it took them to exit it at the beginning of that episode).
I'll bet. I know that some of the on-location shooting they were previewing for S6 could NOT have been that cheap (although it made me very excited), so maybe they will consider that option. I know I'd love to see it. Exploring the TARDIS! :3
oh man. I want this episode now. I want it!!
I've read fanfics like that, where Ianto (as a companion) just kind of finds a bathroom and the other door leads to a vineyard with random doors. And one of the doors leads back the console room, but only if you open it with your left hand, and if you open it with your right you wind up going back into the bathroom.
…Moar TARDIS please.
Oh, jeez. I'm imagining the hangover that wine made from grapes that are grown in a chronal energy field will give you. Owchies.
That's amazing. It reminds me of Hogwarts where the staircases move and rooms appear based on how much you need them.
<enters Fan Fic Writer mode> Oooooh my gosh, best idea ever, the TARDIS connects to Hogwarts and the witches from the Shakespeare code get out and go to Hogwarts, and the Doctor and Amy have to go and save the day. </exits>
…There are some logic problems with that, such as Harry Potter being a book the Doctor has read, but I suppose if I try to work it on Discworld logic… hmmm…
I have always thought that the Room of Requirement was a TARDIS. Of course, this fits with my theory that wizards are descended from Time Lords.
yesplease
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There's a lot of running around the TARDIS in "Logopolis" (Fourth Doctor era).
Then again, the fact that Nyssa and Tegan shared a bedroom on such a large ship made me ship *them*. 😉
Yeah, pretty much all this. It always amazes me how threatened some people get by sexualy agressive women. It ain't as if she wasn't getting mixed signals from the get go with the Doctor… But yes, I really think this is Moffat getting something out of the way that certain sections of the fan base expected after the RTD era and doing so in such a way as to both establish this is NOT something 11 wants with Amy and to give him a springboard for future events (says he being vague to avoid spoilers).
This is an excellent comment. <3
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I didn't think of it like that.
That's quite brilliant.
Totally agreed. And I think this is compounded by the fact that the companion role is partly a stand-in for the audience, asking the questions we would ask were we suddenly flying around in a time traveling spaceship, etc. And the audience adores the Doctor, obvs, and a rather large number of people WOULD jump on the Doctor's face given the opportunity, so they inevitably root for the companion/audience proxy to do so as well. And, as you point out, the reality of that fantasy is not fulfilling; it's sort of wrong and sad.
THIS. Upvoted to infinity for pointing out the truth how ridiculous a companion/Doctor pairing actually is.
*points up at the review* Word.
Moffatt is a god among Who writers, and Matt and Karen are brilliant. And yes, ALWAYS MOAR RORY!
Mmm I know everyone likes to talk about why they love each episode, and this is an episode I enjoy greatly, but I sort of want to make a small list of the things that I didnt like? Please dont hate me Im just curious as to whether anyone agrees with me about a few bits and pieces.
Ok lets go:
1. Like it took the Doctor awhile in the last episode to realise the statues didnt have two heads, I didnt really buy that it took him so long in this episode to realise that Amy was counting down. I twigged much quicker than he did, which tbh I think should not happen in Who, the audience shouldnt figure something like that out before the Doctor does.
2. I think this episode suffers a teensy bit from the same Moffatism as the Beast Below, in that there's quite a lot going on and some of it feels a little rushed. River and her constant mystery, the time crack, the Angels, how it all ties back to Amy's bedroom…that's just what I felt.
3. The end…oh god the end with Amy and the kissing. AMY YOU ARE GETTING MARRIED WHY ARE YOU KISSING THE DOCTOR, TO EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD THAT IS KNOWN AS CHEATING, PLEASE STOP.
I promise I do like this episode! I even like it more than the first part, but those couple of little things do get to me.
For number 1, I don't think it did take him long to notice, he was just thinking about it whilst doing other things – he said something along the lines of: "You've been doing it for a few minutes now," implying he'd noticed.
I'm not really disagreeing with you, because those are things that irked me a little, but I've sort of rationalized them after more viewings:
1. I think he notices, but just doesn't say anything right away. I don't think that's the first time, but regardless, there was a lot going on, and I guess thinking of a way out is more important than wondering why Amy is counting.
2. I had SO MANY questions after this episode about River and the crack and what it all had to do with Amy, but while waiting for the next episode to air, I just gave up and assumed it was to hint at a bigger mystery that would be solved later, like a more detailed Bad Wolf. It's frustrating, but it's like being teased "Oh I know who River is and where that crack came from and I'M NOT GOING TO TELL YOU" and it makes me angry but it also sucks me in and makes me want MOAR MOAR MOAR.
3. I hate cheating. HATE. But I sort of get why Amy tries on the Doctor…she's had a weird hang up about him forever (he's like the super-hero father who never ages and now looks her age and is still super and hot) and she almost just died, so…I get it. I don't think that makes it ok, but I get it. Also: Rose left her boyfriend in a parallel universe to keep going on adventures with the Doctor. I think a kiss is lower on the chain than that.
Thats a good point, I probably should have worded it differently than 'why are you kissing the doctor'. I understand what prompts the kiss, but I really dont like that she does it and I dont like people excusing her as if what she did wasnt wrong. I do sort of disagree about what Rose does compared to what Amy does though. Obviously Rose leaving Mickey without a word isnt right, but Amy is engaged to be married and kissing another man, and she also upped and left Rory to go travelling with the Doctor. I would say they are at least as bad as each other, if not Amy's actions a little bit worse.
Sorry totally disagree. Rose left her boyfriend on a street corner, clearly traumatised after basically telling him he wasn't good enough then strung him along for two series (more actually thinking about it) while trying to hook up with first Adam, then Jack, then Ten.
Yeah, Amy's cheating on Rory but good lord is there a LOT of issues driving it. She's also very VERY clear about what she wants and, frankly, has been getitng some very mixed signals from the Doctor as well (not that he realises that of course, 11 being 11, but they're there anyway). If she'd been looking to actually form a relationship I'd have had a major problem with it but as it was… nah. She's human, she's flawed, she makes mistakes, that's a GOOD thing in storytelling so long as the story treats it as such (another problem with Rose was all her flaws were ignored or praised by the story, very bad form).
I dont think what Amy does is portrayed as bad though, or as a mistake. In that sense I think she's just as bad as Rose. Eeek I really want to say more, but spoilers, River would be very cross with me XD Im going to suspend my argument for a couple more episodes, if thats ok, then Ill be able to discuss more freely.
ps. sorry if this posts twice, I had to refresh the page
Ahhhhhh there is something I really want to say but I can't because it hasn't happened yet!!!!
But to me, Rose and Mickey were friends since childhood and dating (possibly) as long as they've been into that sort of thing, and she just left him to go off with the Doctor. Then, when she saw him again, when he came along on the TARDIS, she seemed more annoyed at his being there than happy to be with him again. And then, after going to the parallel world for the first time, just let him go because she made it abundantly clear that she would always choose the doctor over him. Granted, they got to see each other again, but at the time they were all convinced it was the Last Time. And, as Stephen_M added, she was stringing him along the whole time. As I said, I don't agree with cheating, nor can I ever condone it, but I think what Rose did was way more damaging to Mickey.
I guess this is clearly a matter of interpretation, but I was always under the impression that somewhere between Mickey telling Rose he was hooking up with someone else in Boom Town and Rose telling Mickey that there was nothing left for her on earth in The Parting of the Ways, they broke up and just had a pretty easy transition into being old friends. In School Reunion he even refers to Rose as being the Doctor's "Missus" and I don't hear a whole lot of boyfriends referring to their current girlfriend as being someone else's anything.
I think ultimately Rose and Mickey messed with each other's heads more than Amy hurt Rory by kissing Eleven (I have to believe your imaginary childhood hero is on some sort of free pass list), but it seemed to me that Mickey did not have any misunderstanding about still being Rose's boyfriend.
You're right, it's totally down to interpretation, but I thought Mickey still held a candle for Rose, even after Boom Town. I think (and it's been a long time since I've seen that episode, so I might be making this up) that he said that it wasn't really serious between him and the other girl, and then in The Parting of Ways, I just felt like her saying that there wasn't anything for her on earth was really cruel, especially considering how Mickey was there to support her when he could have just gone off and ditched her. I just felt like, when he stayed in the parallel world, that part of his reasoning was so that he could be away from Rose without feeling like she was the only one leaving. I don't think Rose intentionally hurt Mickey, but I do think that she was inconsiderate and hurt him as a consequence.
Really, though, I think all of the companions are flawed and (probably unintentionally) do hurtful things to the people they leave behind in order to travel with the Doctor, and I don't think they are unrealistic in that respect. I don't think Amy is an exception to this at all, but from a lot of what I've seen, there are some people who are more likely to call Amy out on it than some of the other companions. I'm not trying to call out anybody in particular, and I'm not sure if that's what Treasure Cat was doing at all, but I get a little defensive about it sometimes.
3. I'm going to go with "Amy is human and scared and unsure what she wants". Having been in a similar situation, I totally get it. Rory could be the best guy in the whole world, but what Amy craves is adventure. It's a struggle. And really, who wants a completely flawless companion?
#3–My thoughts exactly. Girl, go take a cold shower! And if the genders had been reversed, and a guy were not taking 'no' for an answer, you know people would've been bitching up a storm, and rightly so. I had a really, really hard time with Amy after this episode, and events in future episodes I shall not mention because they would be spoilers made me dislike her even more.
Mark, love reading your reviews and reactions.
Mark, you should have seen the Doctor Who forums literally explode when Amy kissed the Doctor. People were horrified and deeply offended. It was hilarious. 🙂
This is one of my favorite episodes this season, which isn't saying much, because I would consider probably 9 or 10 of these episodes as "my favorites". So much awesomeness, so little time.
And for what it's worth, I love that Amy is really sexual. All the old companions just flashed their knickers all the time, and no one complained about that, but as soon as Amy makes it clear that she *shudder gasp* likes sex and likes to be a flirt, heads explode.
This is probably not a "cool" comment and I thoroughly expect downvotes… but I can't say I'm entirely surprised that there's a faction of Doctor Who fans who are intimidated by the idea of a sexually confident woman being on board the TARDIS.
(So yeah, I agree with you basically!)
As was brought up during the great Moffat-is-sexist discussions of…. Forrest of the Dead? I think?
Doctor Who writer Toby Whithouse:
"To be fair, female sexuality still terrifies me, as it does every other man. I can say that definitively, there was a meeting. There’s a memo. You terrify us. Women, I am here to tell you, you terrify us."
UGH. Horrible. HORRIBLE.
It's actually sort of shocking to me that Amy is the amazing character that she is, because the chips are pretty stacked against it. I think I shall give the credit to Karen Gillan 🙂
I think they must have forgotten to send me that memo. For which I will be forever grateful.
I know and know of guys who are anything but terrified by female sexuality. Toby and his ilk need to get over themselves and face the fact that women are sexual beings just as much as they are and we have wants and needs, too. The age of women lying back and thinking of England is OVER and thank God for that!
Actually, that bit with Amy kissing the Doctor was in the Series 5 trailers before The Eleventh Hour aired and everyone was like "OH NO NOT AGAIN??!!!" 😛
I wasn't deeply offended, but Matt Smith's character decisions for Eleven make him so alien it is like watching Amy kiss an Ood. She is welcome to and I have no problems with her enjoying sex, but my first reaction is "There is something WEIRD going on here"
The really weird part is how every time I see real life Karen Gillan and Matt Smith I think they should be dating. They very much attractive people who have every right to be kissing each other, if they want to. It is solely within the context of the show and their characters that makes me feel all weird.
I think the kiss was meant to make us a little uncomfortable. The Doctor IS an alien, and he IS more than 900 years old. It's a little weird. And Matt Smith plays the Doctor as pretty asexual, I think. It's just AWKWARD to watch him kiss somebody.
Exactly, which is why I liked the awkwardness of the kiss. It SHOULD be awkward.
A person can be sexual and confident without throwing themselves at another person and refusing to back off when they're told 'no'.
Actually come to think of it this bothered me too – the Angels' quantum-lock was sort of implied to be involuntary, or else why would they be able to trap the damn things by getting them to look at each other back in Blink? – but I kind of let it slide for Rule of Terrifying. You might be able to justify it as these Angels being powered up by the ship or something, as opposed to the Blink-Angels who had been working off tiny meals for centuries, idk.
Yeah, that was the thing that bothered me the most about it. The reason they're "weeping angels", Ten originally explained, is that they cover their faces so they don't see each other and turn to stone. Yet a whole horde of them could advance with their eyes open in these episodes, and could be TRICKED into turning to stone?
Are you interested in hearing my own head canon-y explanation? It's probably complete rubbish, but it works for me 🙂
Of course! I'd love to hear. :)))
When you touch something hot, like boiling water, you don't even consciously think about it, it's a natural survival instinct to pull away, and you only realise a second or so later that "OMGTHATWASTOOHOT!" right?
Well, have you ever touched a saucepan or something, 'knowing' that it's super hot? You pull your hand away in a millisecond but…it wasn't hot… you thought it would be so you pulled away and it wasn't till a second later when you realised it was okay to touch.
Okay I don't think I'm explaining my unconscious survival instinct vs expectation metaphor very well…
I think the angels freeze automatically when they know Amy is coming…and if Amy actually HAD been able to see them then they wouldn't have moved. But they believed she could see them so they stopped themselves without being quantum locked and then when it started to dawn on them that she couldn't see them they slowly began to move and realise they weren't locked.
So yes, the Angels *were* just stupid 🙂
/stupidfanwankyexplanation
No this is a brilliant explanation! It makes perfect sense, and it's how I see it from now on 🙂
That's an excellent way to put it, nice one! Also we should remember… the Angels aren't the brightest sparks in the first place. Vicious, yes. Psycopaths, oooooooh yes. Blessed with fairly cool powers, yep… but bright? Nah. These are the same creatures that decided it'd be a good idea to taunt the Doctor, who caught him and then got distracted by the shiny thing before killing him, who had a choice of the Doctor or the Bishop and went for the Bishop and who expected the Doctor to throw himself into the crack to save them while relying on their word that they'd spare Amy and River afterwards.
These are the same creatures that decided it'd be a good idea to taunt the Doctor,
To put it another way, what kind idiot taunts a guy who's got a nickname of 'The Oncoming Storm'.
I love this explanation! It makes a lot more sense than the Doctor's simple "They're in survival mode, so they won't notice you"
The survival mode thing kinda ties in, too, though.
The angels aren't stupid… they're scared! Absolutely terrified by the crack. They've bitten off more than they can chew, and so they want the Doctor to save them. They -beg- the Doctor to save them. "Throw yourself into the crack!"
If ever their reflexes were gonna be oversensitive, it's that very moment. A reflex bypasses the neural relay. There's no choice in it, there's no thought process behind it. They just snap into statue form. A reflex is designed to save an organism's life. Turning to stone is their foolproof defence mechanism. So, yes, they're in survival mode! And they're clever. Very clever. But very scared. Twitchy angels.
Exactly this. They're terrified of the crack that's going to erase them from existence. One stray human is really not important. They're just acting on instinct. They assume they've been seen and their reflexes make them freeze. Until Amy falls over and can't get up or find the communicator. Then it's, "Hang on….I don't think she can really see us…" they calm down just enough to test it out, and they find they can move.
Youuuuuu win a prize! Thanks for being amazing!
Awww, why?
Okay, here's my real comment. I remember watching this episode for the first time. I was at my mom's house, alone in her basement, face inches from the computer screen. When that fucking angel turned her head I jumped back, nearly fell out of my chair and screamed "IT'S MOVING, IT'S MOVING, OH MY GOD IT'S MOVING!" I scared the hell out of my mother
I'm not a huge fan of the angels in this two-parter, mainly because it totally deconstructs all we've been told about them during Blink. (I don't understand how the Daleks can keep coming back and their way of doing things never really changes much, with the exception of the Cult of Skaro – I haven't seen any Classic Who, so no idea if they've evolved since then – but this is the first time the Angels come back and they do everything so differently.) I read a lot of the comments yesterday that explained why they don't send people back in time and I accept that. I also can accept what amildmiri said above about the angels moving even while we're watching it because tv doesn't capture everything, but I really did like how the audience was part of the episode in Blink. It's cool in its own way.
But I have a question. I haven't seen this episode in a while and when I did, it was a marathon of season 5, so things could be mixed up in my head, but aren't the angels looking at each other? They're all lined up and standing behind one another and there looks to be about a MILLION of them hanging around, so you'd think they could see each other. Why can they still move? Is it because at first, they're all crumbly without eyes? But then they start to heal and look more like angels than ruins. Or does looking at the back of their heads not count? I AM CONFUSED.
Despite my confusion about the angels, I did like this arc, especially Amy and Eleven, who are adorable together. And I'm all for MORE RORY. And they came back to the present time on my birthday (that's a sign of some sort, right?)! And I was ridiculously proud of myself for picking up on the unsubtlest of themes ever by noticing the cracks in every episode. I could be a time agent detective, yes?
I agree completely. It's one thing if Moffat reaches back and changes an old monster, as they've been reimagined so often. But he's rewriting a monster he JUST created. I is confuse.
On the Angels thing… remember how quick they move. They're all lined up but that means the ones at the BACK aren't being observed so can leapfrog to the front, thus freeing up the ones they were looking at etc etc.
Haha, I like this leap frogging idea!
leapfrog
OMG this gives me a wonderful mental image of them literally playing leapfrog and I can't stop laughing. XD
Leap frogging angels of death. Excellent. I don't know if I necessarily agree with it, but it is too hilarious an image for me not to adopt into my head canon. So thank you.
I don't think this episode reconstructs what we saw in Blink, it just adds to it. Remember, that was just one episode. The angles are really complex and strange, so it makes sense to me that we wouldn't know everything about them. Also, it was said in Blink and again in the first part of this one that those angles were just scavengers. This is a full-blown army. So while they're the same species, they're in different classes in terms of their capabilities. As for them looking at each other: I sort of got the impression that they needed to be looked at more directly, at least in terms of each other. The Angels in Blink were in the same room in Wester Drumlins but could move until they were looking each other square in the face. They'd never be able to work together as a species if there wasn't some way for them to be in the same place, potentially seeing each other, and be stuck unable to move.
This is true. I mention above that I accept what we learn about their differences, in reference to their snapping people's necks instead of sending them back through time. I realize they're different. They just seem sooooo different that I'm less willing to accept all these differences. Very little is the same about these angels and the Blink ones other than they both look like angels statues and looking at them freezes them, but now if you look into their eyes, they enter your soul (a difference I'm cool with). Basically, I'd just like to see a couple more similarities or that they were an entirely different species, like the Slitheen compared to the aliens from Clom.
As for Blink, please correct me if I'm wrong, I've only seen it twice and was pretty busy being terrified, but didn't those angels cover their eyes when more than one of them was in the room? Or only one had their eyes open at time? But you're right, they'd be a rather ineffectual species if they couldn't work with one another somehow. Maybe they have some telecommunication or sense as to when they are being watched.
Hmmmm. You know, I had been totally confident about the angels in Blink, but now that you mention it, maybe they did always have their eyes covered? I know there are times when they don't cover their eyes, but now I can't remember if it's when one was alone or if there were more in the room. We should watch it again.
Otherwise…I let myself get totally sucked into these episodes, so I don't really think about the ways the angels are being different until well afterwards. Even then, I don't think too hard, especially with this two-parter, because even though they're different, the angels are still terrifying and awesome.
If the Daleks had been stuck with their original 1st appearance abilities they'd still only be able to move on metal floors.
Sometimes evolution is a good thing! 😉
Oh man this episode. This is where the season has started to turn around for me. I actually didn't like the first part much, but I blame that on leaked over hate from Victory of the Daleks. For this second part I had to wait for my next disc to come from Netflix and I finally got really invested in an episode.
My favorite part was definitely the whole leaking time crack thing. When the commander guy whoever talking to Amy completely forgot his comrades I about crapped myself. And why doesn't Amy get affected? I know there's some weird excuse at the end that the Doctor gives her, but I'm not completely buying it.
Seeing as I mentioned last review that I can't stand Amy Pond, I figure I should mention her here. Now while I did like her more in this episode, I still just can't connect with her or Karen's acting. It might be more direction issues for me than anything but I want more from her. I guess they're going for her being subdued in her emotions but I miss the utter terror, the pure glee and terrible sadness that came through with other companions when they were in extreme situations. Karen just seemed like she might have heard a noise in her house at night and was going to investigate, not walking around with her eyes closed trying to fool a bunch of terrifying creatures surrounding her. I also personally would not like Amy if I were to meet her. We just don't jive on any level. But clearly I'm pretty alone in these feelings, which is just fine!
Oh, but, while I can't personally relate to how she tried to seduce the Doctor at the end, I can understand the motives and people calling her a slut is just gross. Knock it off people that likely aren't here because the people here are awesome.
Also, yay early review!
But clearly I'm pretty alone in these feelings, which is just fine!
For the record, you are not completely alone. I appreciate Karen as an actress, but I dont hold the same level of love for Amy Pond that the rest of the fandom does. Most of the time Im indifferent towards her, but when Im not indifferent then Im annoyed with her more than Im in love with her. Tbh I think its the writing of the character.
I also personally would not like Amy if I were to meet her. We just don't jive on any level. But clearly I'm pretty alone in these feelings, which is just fine!
Nah, you're not alone! I don't like Amy as a person – I think she's a little too dismissive of other people's feelings, a little too aggressive, bordering on cruel at times – which is a shame, cause I really wanted to like her. But at the same time, I love the story around her (what with meeting the Doctor as a child) and all the little hints and mysteries about her life. Things like not-remembering the Daleks, and all the speculation there was when she was introduced as a character (that I will not go further into here) – I love the way her character is used by the narrative, so I want her to stay a companion at least for the next series. But as a person, no, she's definitely not for me. I feel like she's the kind of person who'd make me feel incredibly shit about myself after talking to her for a while.
Oh totally agreed at what the writers are doing around her character, it's just her herself that is off-putting. I think this is only a real issue for me because I just loved all the past 3 companions SO MUCH that it hurts me I don't love Amy too. Good to hear I'm not alone though. I do like the plots and story of these season 5 episodes, but for me I lose quite a bit from watching tv shows when I don't really like the characters involved.
Okay, LET'S DO THIS. I'm still actively avoiding anything possibly spoilery, so I can't unleash what the fandom was speculating when this episode was first released, but I can give you some things.
1) I'm glad to see someone already linked to the "bridging" scene. GO WATCH IT. If I hadn't been sold on Matt Smith before, that would have absolutely done it.
2) There's a great bit from the Doctor Who Confidential about the kiss scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNeXmFwEB9o
3) I've actually been curious for a really long time about how you were going to react to the end scene where Amy tries to seduce the Doctor. When I first watched it, I thought it was really funny, but then I realized that if the genders were swapped, it would be a really bad scene. It's sort of a double standard thing, or as TVTropes puts it, "Rape is funny when it's female on male", and the scene makes me uncomfortable now. I thought you might have a bigger reaction to that issue.
4) River Song. <3
3) YMMV, but I felt like that whole scene was supposed to be uncomfortable, rather than funny.
You know, I'm not sure that it was. The way that Moffat and the actors were talking about it in the video I linked, they were treating it as "lighthearted" and "funny". They didn't seem to find it problematic at all.
I agree with your point #3. On the one hand, I'm like FOUR FOR YOU AMY POND, YOU GO AMY POND because she's a woman on primetime TV who is shown as sexual without being shamed for it (and also holy crap Eleven is a cutie) but on the other hand… the Doctor doesn't want that. He's sending out such clear signals that he wants her to stop, and she doesn't. It makes me upset on his behalf because he needs to trust his companions as much as they need to trust him, and he can't do that if there's no respect for his wishes. Plus I wonder if it's at all triggering for some people.
I don't think I would be so conflicted over it if the episode had been written by somebody who I could trust with these issues, you know? If it had been written with some awareness about consent and it was definitely intended to make us consider all these different issues (Amy's autonomy vs the Doctor's, for example) then it would be less troubling to have the same conversations about this scene.
Having said that, Mark Watches is the one place where we can have these conversations regardless, so that's something.
And I still really like this episode!
Actually this is only Matt and Karen's second episode. This two-parter is the first thing they shot. You can tell by the fact that the Doctor's hair is longer than it is in the rest of the series.
All the footage in the forest looks absolutely amazing. It was shot in puzzlewood (Forest of Dean) and they definitely struck gold by shooting there. As you already mentioned Mark the colours are just amazing. The moss and the ground and the trees everything just looks stunning.
Random image of randomness:
<img src="http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/vick1986_album/pg-2-star-trek-main_166632s-copy.jpg">
MARK WE ARE NOT PREPARED FOR EARLY POSTS!
<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/5pmses.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
‘The Time of Angels’ is really creepy when it comes up on shuffle when you’re alone late at night. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5QM-Csxqu8
I like the expansion on our knowledge of the Weeping Angels because it's so interesting to see that the Angels have turned the only defense against them in to a weapon. I also like seeing how they work in different enviorments so I like the contrast between the Angels we see here and the ones in Blink. Also how creepy was it to see that Angel slowly reaching for Amy's neck when she can't even see it herself.
‘That’s extremely very not good’
The crack is fascinating and I love how it's being built up as opposed to just being dropped into the background of episodes. It's terrifying as well. I can't imagine anyone being completely erased. Even after we die we leave things behind, whether it's personal photos and official records or relationships with others like family or the vague memory of that person you knew when you were little. Imagine all of that being gone. There's nothing left behind and no one to mourn or remember you. It's chilling when you stop and think about what being erased from existence means in depth.
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/2upeski.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
‘River song I could bloody kiss you’ ‘Maybe when you’re older.’
It's interesting to see some of the contrasts between River and the Doctor in this. The scene with Amy in the forest is a good example. River tries to comfort Amy while the Doctor is all blunt honesty. I like the clashes they have in the episode as well. I love how when cornered by the Angels River offers to sacrifice herself but the Doctor's having none of that. They've seen each other in the future and know the other has to survive but they don't really admit it out loud.
‘I’ll see you then.’ ‘I look forward to it.’ ‘I remember it well.’
I also love River and the Doctor's conversation at the end of the episode. You have the seriousness of River apparently having killed a man (I have theories) but also the fun teasing about the Pandorica and how their timelines don't match up.
‘What are you thinking?’ ‘Time can be rewritten.’
I am intrigued by the Doctor saying that because I wonder what he's referring to, especially with that little smile on his face.
Wow okay for some reason I didn't expect the angel gif to move because my internet stalled on loading it past the first frame.
And then it suddenly did and I made a loud squeaky noise of fear in the middle of the library.
Damn you, Moffat.
So agreed about the differences between River and the Doctor. I really didn't like her until I watched this episode a second time. I thought she was obnoxious with all her answers in Silence in the Library, and then really really didn't trust her when I saw this two-parter for the first time because it seems like she killed "the best man she ever knew" and WHAT DOES THAT MEAN. However, when I watched these episodes again, I realized how wonderful she is with Amy, taking the time to help her adjust to this new world. She's the one who explains the Angels to Amy. She's the one who tells Amy how wonderful she was with the Angel in the television. She's the one who notices when Amy has something in her eye and she's the one who ultimately saves Amy and protects her at the end. I love 11 more than words can express, but there really is something incredibly special about River Song.
Yay Series Five
Ten!<img src="http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/Doctor/tumblr_lfe45fvIU31qe4oo2.gif">
I am really liking Eleven
Nine/!<img src="http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/Doctor/wjx3bt.gif">
Better keep those eyes closed, Amy.
Eight.<img src="http://i31.tinypic.com/2lngzz4.jpg">
I think the Doctor is the man she killed.
Seven.<img src="http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/Doctor/11ilv2c.gif">
The cleric says "Who or what she is" about River.
Six<img src="http://i44.tinypic.com/1zq6n7s.jpg">
I don't get it, Amy seems
Fivefine to me.<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/2n86c5w.jpg">
BARROWMAN!
Four.<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/2e4kyn6.jpg">
ROSE LOVED DRUGS!
Three<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/2yulrw3.jpg">
Eeek! I had better close my eyes now! I blame all of the angel images.
EDIT: That last comment keeps getting striked, even though I have edited it multiple times. I blame the crack.
BRILLIANT GIFSPAM IS BRILLIANT OMFG.
EPIC COMMENT IS EPIC AND MADE OF WIN!
THIS IS A BEAUTIFUL COMMENT <3
THIS IS BEAUTIFUL!
Marry me!
Babysit me!
<img src="http://i54.tinypic.com/73kxlt.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
&Maeby;
SURE! Let's not have the wedding on the 26th of June, okay?
Sounds like a plan!
And if you look under your seat now, you'll find…
ALL THE THINGS!!!!!!
ALL THE THINGS!??
*looks under seat* All I see is a tear in my carpeting.
OH #%$^$%!
I LOVE THIS COMMENT!!!!!
I WEEP THAT I HAVE BUT ONE GREEN THUMB TO BESTOW UPON THIS COMMENT.
OBSESSED WITH YOU AND THE GREATEST COMMENT IN THE HISTORY OF COMMENTS!!!!
THIS IS A GOOD COMMENT, AND YOU SHOULD FEEL GOOD FOR MAKING IT.
YOU ARE AMAZING.
That gif is terrifying. For serious.
"What makes absolutely no sense, though, is Amy expressing sexual feelings for the Doctor. We’ve never seen anyone kiss the Doctor like that before. I mean, I liked the distinction Amy made that she wasn’t in love with the Doctor; she merely wanted a make out party. MAKE OUT PARTIES ARE AWESOME. But why now? Why is she acting this way?" – Two thoughts. First, Amy has basically grown up with the image of the Doctor as her dashing hero, he's basically the only real male authority figure in her life and is genuinely kinda awesome. For her not to be harbouring a crush at this point would strike me as odd quite frankly. Second, the girl has been put through the ringer since she got on-board the TARDIS what with being almost eaten by a star whale, facing the Doctor's anger, meeting the Daleks in WW2 and almost getting bombed in the blitz then the massive amount of head games the Angels played with her. The need to connect with someone, ANYONE, after all that is perfectly understandable and when coupled with the first bit…. I also have zero problem with Amy being that forward, it's not as if this is a stranger to her and (as the bridging scene off the box set points out) boy oh boy has the Doctor been throwing out some mixed signals. Eh, I'm fine with it, can understand why others wouldn't be but I think WAY too much gets made of it. On a TV note I kinda think Moffat HAD to address it as well considering the route RTD took with companions constantly being attracted to Ten (the original S4 companion, Penny, was supposed to be another one who fell in love before Catherine Tate said she was avalable) and people sorta expect it. It's also a nice way to.. uh, shoot into spoiler territory. I'll finish that thought at a later date.
Talking of Moffat, that's the repair work from the worst excesses of the RTD era pretty much finished! I'd love to know at what point he came up with the idea of the crack basically being an RTD bad-idea-destroyer which can take out the events from the universe but leave the stuff we've seen intact. Also glad to see the Angels are still ever-so-slightly dumb, they're pyschopaths and vicious as hell but not that bright… nice change for New Who. Oh, and to further the nightmare fuel, remember in Blink the Angels are locked by characters or the audience looking at them? Some thought this episode broke that but think about how the angels move. Almost stop-motion isn't it? They're moving in between the frames of the film when we're not looking at them…
Honestly I could rave on this episode for ages but think most of its been covered already. Mostly it's the little details that make it shine, something Moffat does so, so well (using the muzzle flash of the rifles to see the Angels for instance) but that doesn't make for good commentary.
Well said, Stephen!
I love this episode so much more than the first one, and it has nothing in the least to do with the Angels, and everything to do with everything else. The interactions between the characters (everything pitch perfect!), the crack in the wall being more explained and yet less explained, the incredible dialogue, Amy and River and the Doctor being total BAMFs. It's all phenomenal.
Awesome things (it's a long list):
– River fixes things! River does the impossible!
– "Doctor Song, I've lost good clerics today. You trust this man?" "I absolutely trust him." "He's not some kind of madman then?" [beat] "I absolutely trust him." PERFECT.
– The forest on the ship. I love it. Of course it makes sense. TREEBORGS!
– "A forest in a bottle on a spaceship in a maze. Have I impressed you yet Amy Pond?" Oh they are so cute.
– "Ah! There you are, Angel Bob. There you are. How's life? Sorry, bad subject." "The Angels were wondering what you hope to achieve." "Achieve? We're not achieving anything, we're just… hanging, it's nice in here. Consoles, comfy chairs, a FOREST, how's things with you?" "The Angels are feasting, sir. Soon we'll be able to absorb enough power to consume this vessel. This world and all the stars and worlds beyond." "Wellll, we've got comfy chairs. Did I mention?" "We have no need of comfy chairs." "I made him say comfy chairs." OK. Will stop quoting dialogue from the episode because frankly it is all PERFECT. Did I mention?
– The crack. It's not just a trace at the end of an episode now. IT EATS PEOPLE. IT ERASES THEM FROM REALITY. Holy fuck.
– Octavian standing up to the Doctor and going along with him and River, telling something about River's awful past. Basically all things involving Octavian.
– The Doctor's speech to Amy about trusting him. It's heartbreakingly sweet, it's like he's speaking to little!Amy all over again. Acknowledging exactly WHY Amy has issues with trust. It's so intimate, adorable, and sweet, and I love it.
– Amy reasoning out everything about the crack, just being smart and awesome, at the same time (but separately from) the Doctor doing so.
– The brave and spectacular death of Octavian which makes me cry all the tears. "I wish I'd known you better." "I think sir, you know me at my best." "Ready?" "Content." (Me: WAUGGGGGGH!)
– Amy's high-top Converse.
– The Doctor gets panicked, and shouty, and really, genuinely scared. It may be the most vulnerable we've ever seen him and it makes me scared too 🙁
– The Angels begging the Doctor for mercy, and the gravity saving the day a second time. Pun included!
– "You, me, handcuffs. Must it always end this way?" Oh god. Last time River said that she DIED. 🙁
– River drops her guard here, at the end, talking with the Doctor.Just for a little bit. And underneath her cocky exterior she is so sad. River, who did you kill? Why are you sad? And then she puts it right back on, laughing away the "gravity of the situation." And I stop being annoyed by her, and start loving the brave woman who acts all her feelings away. I think River's cockiness is as much for her benefit as it is for the supposed benefit of other people that she deals with. A study in deliberate nonchalance. And I'm so sad FOR her, because I've been there too. Not in a felonious way but still. Putting that act on when secretly you care more than everything in the world is… one of the hardest things in the world. Ow. Oh River. Can I give you a hug?
– Amy's makeouty reaction to her near-death experience. It makes perfect sense, it's so human, of course Amy would try to deal with her complicated emotions with sex (oh I sympathise). And the Doctor's reaction is right on, as well. I actually like this bit as sort of a meta-commentary on the hero and heroine getting together at the end of action/adventure stories. Amy sexually acting out all over her childhood imaginary friend is DEEPLY CREEPY, at the same time that it is PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDABLE. Mind you, I think it has everything to do with Amy's particular set of issues about loneliness and abandonment, and isn't some kind of bigger commentary. (Personally, I think it feels very real and honest and it just fucking makes my heart HURT for her.)
Aaaaand a few things that I am not so fond of (but can mostly overlook due to the awesomeness of everything listed above.)
– NUMBER ONE: WE SEE THE ANGELS MOVING. I'm sorry. That wrecks the Angels for me. Seeing them move makes them less scary for the audience, because now we're no longer in the same creeeeeepy position as the characters. I guess it's justified because Amy has her eyes closed at the time but…. meh.
– So does "walk like you can see." The Angels' perception of whether or not they're observed should have no effect on whether they're quantum-locked or not. It wasn't an "instinct" before, it was an automatic quantum effect.
– Amy counting down. Why? Because it's creepy. Moffat/the Angels admit it. It happens just because it's creepy. Well good job, it's creepy, but also I prefer things to make sense.
– I continue to dislike the new Angel paradigm.
Questions:
– OMG WHO IS RIVER WHO DID SHE KILL I NEED TO KNOW NOWWWWWW.
– No really, what's up with the crack in reality, the pure time energy and the fire at the end of the universe? I mean here it sort of saved the day by eating the Angels but it also ate the clerics and seriously this crack is WAY SCARIER THAN ANGELS.
– "You'll see me again soon, when the Pandorica opens." OK WTF is the Pandorica?
– THE BASE CODE OF THE UNIVERSE IS AMY'S WEDDING DAY? WHAT DOES IT MEEEEAN?!
River drops her guard here, at the end, talking with the Doctor.Just for a little bit. And underneath her cocky exterior she is so sad. River, who did you kill? Why are you sad? And then she puts it right back on, laughing away the "gravity of the situation." And I stop being annoyed by her, and start loving the brave woman who acts all her feelings away. I think River's cockiness is as much for her benefit as it is for the supposed benefit of other people that she deals with. A study in deliberate nonchalance.
YES, I think you just nailed why I started to like River after this. Up to this point, River is badass to the point of cheesiness – the catchphrase, the high heels, the jumping-out-of-spaceships-in-a-ballgown, the irritating reinforcement that she knows more than the audience. Yeah, it's awesome to watch, but it doesn't necessarily make her likable by extension; just as Ten resented her familiarity/knowledge, the audience do, because we've not seen the character development up to the 'Point of Ultimate Badassery'. So to show a vulnerability to this cockiness – or to make it visibly a deliberate front – makes her a far more sympathetic character here, and is the point I started to *actually* be interested in her.
Yeah, it's awesome to watch, but it doesn't necessarily make her likable by extension
Ah, thank YOU for summing up why I am often annoyed with River. I don't like characters JUST BECAUSE they're BAMFs. It's the episodes where she drops her guard (Forest of the Dead, and this one) that River becomes a complex, interesting, human BAMF, and that is much more awesome to me.
I love love love your paragraphs on River and Amy. Really this comment is altogether wonderful. I just want to give both of them all the hugs in the world.
This, it's a great review. 😀
Thank you both!
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"A forest in a bottle on a spaceship in a maze. Have I impressed you yet Amy Pond?"
For some reason I feel like that should end with "I'm on a horse."
EARLY REVIEW?AAAARGH NOT PREPARED!
Last time we saw the Doctor he had a gun in his hands and shot the gravity globe above him. The second half of this two-parter finds everyone standing on the Byzantium, having jumped midway of a gravity switch. Neat little science-fiction-y trick. 10
Meanwhile, the Angels are slowly climbing towards them, restoring themselves with the ship’s power and fully formed within the hour. Already Flesh and Stone feels a lot more claustrophobic than Time of Angels; the setting is no longer a wide beach or a huge Maze of the Dead but the enclosed space of the Byzantium full of dead ends and the Angels growing stronger by the minute. 9 Steven Moffat then decides we’re not scared enough and adds fear of the dark to the mixture; to override a locked corridor, the Doctor has to kill the lights, leaving them all effectively helpless. 8
Finally, they manage to escape through the control room to the ship’s oxygen factory, a forest made of wires, sucking in starlight, breathing out air. Another amazing set of this two-parter; “A forest in a bottle in a spaceship in a maze.” 7
Angel Bob decides to call in again. “…Soon we’ll be able to absorb enough power to consume this vessel, this world and all the stars and worlds beyond. The actor did a wonderful of transforming Scared Bob’s voice into an emotionless but chilling sound. 6 The Doctor then finds out from the Angel why Amy has slowly been counting down throughout the episode; “There’s something in her eye.” Another seamlessly done creepy moment for Moffat; even something as ordinary and subtle as a countdown becomes downright terrifying. Are you trying to make arithmetic scary as well, Moffat? Well, it’s working! 5
“The Angels are laughing, sir. Cause you haven’t noticed yet, sit. The Doctor in the TARDIS hasn’t noticed.” A line that mirrors Prisoner Zero’s in the Eleventh Hour; “The Doctor doesn’t know, the Doctor doesn’t know…” And finally, the big reveal; another crack in the wall, only this time the Doctor notices it. Something that pleasantly surprised me, I thought we were going to get unexplained sightings of these cracks right up until the finale but, as we know, Moffat is of the ‘You Are Not Prepared’ line of writing!
River, Amy and the clerics move out to the forest and that’s when the Angels attack the Doctor. I distinctly remember yelling when the Angel’s wrist moves and grabs the Doctor’s jacket. We get to see them move at last, though I really didn’t need to. It’s as though Moffat is hell-bent on providing us with nightmare fuel. 4
The Doctor escapes to find Amy lying on the floor of the forest, dying. At this point he starts panicking; “(What’s wrong?)Everything, you’re dying.” Dying because an angel climbed into her mind. Another image of this episode I like is that of Amy’s eyes with the Angel reflected in them, simple yet effectively horrible. 3
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*continued*
And the Doctor manages to save her by telling her to close her eyes. This is where you get to explicitly see how much the Doctor has come to care for Amy; I have a personal weakness for this line:“Right, Father, you and your clerics are going to stay here and look after Amy. If anything happens to her, I‘ll hold every single one of you personally responsible, twice.” And this exchange:
“I'll be back for you as soon as I can.”
“You always say that.”
“I always come back.”
He takes the time to reassure her, to keep her safe. And that kiss on her forehead was really sweet.
River, the Doctor and Father Octavian then head towards the flight deck and we get a little more insight on what she’s been hiding; she’s a prisoner guarded by the clerics trying to get a pardon. The Doctor then discovers that the crack originates from Amy’s time; specifically June 26, 2010. Time can be unwritten. Was the crack the reason people forgot about the Daleks and the Cyberking? Before he can answer that question, the Doctor turns to find Octavian captured by an Angel. Father Octavian resigns himself to his fate, not before warning the Doctor not to trust River Song because she killed a man who was ‘a hero to many’. And Eleven gets to see someone die for him for the first time, helpless to do anything. Matt Smith is brilliant at subtly showing the Doctor’s despair. “I wish I’d known you better.” But it’s Father Octavian who kills it in this scene. “I think, sir, you’ve known me at my best. (Ready?) Content.” I’m not generally a fan of characters becoming martyrs; but here I think there’s distinction between the soldier in Father Octavian who bravely gives himself up for the good of the mission and the martyr.
Meanwhile, the crack appears in the forest and scares away the Angels that had surrounded the clerics and Amy. Three of the soldiers go to investigate when something strange happens; the remaining cleric forgets their existence. Finally Amy is left alone when he disappears too and has to find her way to the Doctor. Here, Moffat taps into another primal fear; how do you escape when you’re suddenly blind? For me, this is the scariest part of the episode; Amy walking blindly amongst the Angels, pretending she can see them. And then they start moving @#$%$#$YRTERWY#$T#$^$%#% The music only made them seem more terrifying.
Fortunately, though, this is where River actually manages to do something in this episode. In the second half of the two-parter, I was a little disappointed at the fact that she was severely underused; her only purpose in this expedition appeared to be convincing the Doctor to tag along and providing us with one-liners to chuckle at.
Anyway, she fixes the teleport and brings back Amy. Angel Bob appears again to make the Doctor as a complicated space-and-time event throw himself in the crack, thus saving the Angels, River and Amy. The Doctor has other ideas though and starts speaking in puns; he tells his companions to ‘get a grip’ and warns the Angels that they haven’t figured out the ‘gravity of the situation’. The crack closes, the Angels are gone.
*continued*
Later, the Doctor explains to Amy how she could remember the soldiers that disappeared; she’s a time-traveler now, her perception of things has changed. But this isn’t the last time we see the crack.
The Doctor confronts River about her crime, killing ‘the best man she’s ever known’. Who could that be? I’m simultaneously curious and apprehensive. Her parting words may be my favourite lines of the episode:
“You'll see me again quite soon. When the Pandorica opens.”
“The Pandorica? Ha. That's a fairytale.”
“Haha, Doctor, aren't we all?”
How very meta of you, River…
And, now, to the controversial ending of this episode. I’ll be clear from the start; I liked it, even though it seems slightly out of place following the events on the Byzantium. Amy decides she wants to show the Doctor that she’s running away from something too and asks him to take her home. I love how the Doctor tactlessly insults Rory (so he’s the groom-to-be…) again. And I love how utterly clueless he is when Amy begins to hit on him. I started to feel uncomfortable when she got all physical with him – but I think I was supposed to. Amy has issues – a lot of them, some of them the Doctor’s fault – and she’s trying to run away from them. Also, she’s just been through what I’ll politely call a traumatic experience, one that the Doctor saved her from. This doesn’t excuse her behavior, that’s why it made me uncomfortable in the first place, but it explains it. Also, it was obviously meant to be a funny, light-hearted scene and I did laugh.
All in all, Flesh and Stone was a terrific ending to a really good story. I never expected it to surpass Blink and I don’t think that was ever Moffat’s intention. He never tries to make the Angels scarier; he simply makes us look at them in a different way. As for River’s return, it made her even more of a puzzle, even if she wasn’t as prominent as she was on her first appearance. And, once again, it was the Doctor and Amy who made the story for me.
>Another image of this episode I like is that of Amy’s eyes with the Angel reflected in them, simple yet effectively horrible
I've watched this episode about a dozen times and tonight was the first time I noticed the Angel in her eye!
Miss Unobservant, that's me!
PREVIOUSLY ON DOCTOR WHO: NOTHING BUT AWESOME 😀
CURRENTLY ON DOCTOR WHO: PANTS-SHITTING TIME
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😀
Ahem. I love this episode, though it is apparently not that popular with the rest of the fandom. Whatever, I think it's fantastic. Adore this two-parter, seriously. <3
"And we'll all plunge to our deaths. See, I've thought about it." OH ELEVEN. <3 Of course you have. Could I love him any more? No, wait, shouldn't answer that, because if I say no, I'll prove myself wrong and look silly, and it doesn't seem right to say yes either. MOVING ON. I love the little pause just before River repeats "I absolutely trust him" in response to Octavian's question. Because LOL WE ALL KNOW ELEVEN IS TOTALLY SOME KIND OF MADMAN. But we love and trust him anyway, don't we? At least, I know I do!
"A forest in a bottle in a spaceship in a maze. Have I impressed you yet, Amy Pond?" Dunno about her, but you've sure impressed me. I wonder how many takes it took Matt Smith to nail that line? I'd have stumbled over it a million times, were it me. Sadly, there is nothing on the gag reel on the DVD set, though there is a hilarious one from later on, wherein he messes up and says "The Angel is full of forests." LULZ FOREVER. And continuing my location drool from the previous episode, I love the Byzantium forest, it's so beautiful. These episodes are full of eye candy, I swear, whether you're looking at our delectable main trio or their surroundings.
I realize Moffat is reusing the "monsters using a dead person's voice to communicate with the Doctor" thing from the Library episodes, but I don't really mind so much since I like its use better here anyway. Angel Bob is creepy, and I love how the Doctor just starts snarking at him here by asking him things like "How's life?" and getting him to say "comfy chairs". Well-done snark is always welcome with me, what can I say? And Eleven does it marvelously here, so my snark-loving heart is made happy.
People tend to complain about how the Angels were handled in these episodes, and while I can understand those complaints, for me personally the portrayal here only added to my love of them as a monster. For example, there's the "image of an Angel becomes itself an Angel" thing, which I think is quite spooky and as a bonus gives you a fridge horror for Blink, what with Sally Sparrow's photos of the Weeping Angels at Wester Drumlins. Using Bob's voice to communicate with the Doctor also gives us the chance to hear that laugh, which will NEVER NOT BE DISTURBING. EEEK. (But you know I love it, so let's not even pretend I don't. Because I am a sad, strange person.)
Of course, the biggest complaint is that we finally see them move. Which I understand the most out of all the complaints, given that I wavered in my feelings on it myself. But after thinking it over, and seeing some fan theories/thought, I've decided that I don't mind and that it's possibly just as creepy, in a new way. You see, the number one most important thing we learn about the Angels here is that they are deeply, deeply sadistic. They're clearly enjoying using Bob's voice to taunt the Doctor (as we saw so clearly in the previous episode, when it used him to talk about how he died and to tell the Doctor he failed him), and outright admit that they're doing the countdown in Amy's head solely to fuck with her. They're making her scared before she dies for fun. So, in this idea (credit to PeterRabid) that has become my new headcanon, take that sadism and the fact that we are the observers that keep the Angels from moving at times? You get the distinct sensation that they are fucking with us too, for shits and giggles. That Moffat is telling us that even we're not safe anymore.
And you know what they say about an image of an Angel becoming an Angel…
I love love love the scene when the Doctor figures out what's happening to Amy for multiple reasons. One, I enjoy that he doesn't lie to her to make her feel better, he knows that won't accomplish anything. Two, the way he talks with his hands here and later on is so hilarious, I DO THAT TOO. And three, the way he claps his hands over his mouth? Is like the visual equivalent of every time "SHIT JUST GOT REAL" has been said around these parts. 😀 I also can't blame him for being so fed up with the Angels' shit that he just throws the communicator. Also-also, I love how River is again comforting Amy here once she's got her eyes closed. It's so sweet.
Speaking of River, do I spy with my little eye a touch of jealousy in thine gaze, Doctor, when Octavian says that they're engaged "in a manner of speaking"? HMMMM. 😀
"You always say that." "I always come back." But not always when you promise, Doctor. That's why Amy, with her years of trust issues, is understandably having problems trusting you. She's not the same person as little Amelia was anymore; it may have been five minutes for you, but it was twelve for her and then two more yet before you finally came back to take her along as you promised. In that time, she grew up, into a person shaped by the experiences that she had as a child. She learned to harden her heart against hope, and trust, to not simply take people at their word lest she be burned again. Amy's had enough of that, and it's not so easy to just cast off years and years of such mistrust and wariness of others. It's completely understandable to me why she'd have trouble trusting him again the way she had as a little girl, and when you put her in this situation, it's even more understandable why she'd feel inclined to doubt him. Here she is, in probably the most terrifying situations of her life, liable to die at any moment, whether she opens her eyes or not (and certain to if she does open them), and he's once again leaving her behind, alone in the dark. She's frustrated and scared and she knows he's not always reliable when he says he'll be right back: who can blame her for not entirely trusting him to keep his word here? She feels abandoned by him again, and the Doctor doesn't entirely seem to get it.
Or does he? The bit with him when he comes back and implores her to start trusting him is so moving to me, I love it. Matt Smith/Eleven once again excels at turning me into a sap; I don't know why the Doctor is suddenly so emotional but it works on me. Damn him and his acting talents. This is also why I don't agree with the common criticism that Moffat doesn't write emotional scenes well, because his episodes always manage to touch my heart in some way and this one is one of the ones that succeeded the most. It's not loud and teary, more subtle and quiet, but I think that's part of why it gets to me. Not everything in real life is a big overdone moment, and I'm a fan of the quiet moments in general, so I appreciate his approach. It's not for everyone, and that's fine. But it really works for me. This scene in particular is so sweet, it gets me misty every time because of the lovely dialogue and Matt Smith's superb delivery. He really is a treasure, I can see why they knew from the start that he was perfect for Eleven even though the original plan was to cast someone older. I wouldn't trade him for anyone, I'm so glad we got him. He's so marvelous at conveying Eleven's kindness and compassion.
Is it just me, or is Eleven a lot more interested in, and flirty with, River after he's found out that she's been in prison? And that she might have killed future him? His face at the end when he asks her about it puts another crack in my heart, and he clearly doesn't know if he can trust her, even though he's aware that one day she'll die to save him and so many others in the Library… but at the same time, their dynamic is so different at the end from the way it was at the beginning of Time of Angels. When he leaned in to whisper "That's a fairy tale", I thought for a second that he was going to kiss her on the cheek or something, and… to tell the truth, I was a bit disappointed that he hadn't. Stop teasing me, you two! I like them together a lot more than I liked her with Ten, I think Alex and Matt just have much more chemistry. If they hook up at some point, I will not complain, I will enjoy it, simply because it would be smoking hot. I don't usually do the shipping thing, but here's a rare exception, just because I am fascinated by her and their relationship and the aforementioned hotness. GIVE ME MORE, MOFFAT.
LOL CYBERKING. I had to really bite my metaphorical tongue, Mark, when you wondered why nobody remembered that in your Next Doctor review. Here is Moffat tossing in a shoutout to that, and I find it so very amusing.
(cont)
R.I.P. Father Octavian. 🙁 You were awesome, and you get an awesome death scene. "I think, sir, that you knew me at my best." Indeed. And Matt Smith YET AGAIN gets to break my heart with just an expression. Those eyes get me every time, he is amazing, he says so much through them. I know, I'm a bit of a broken record on this score, but he really does impress me tons in every episode. I also don't feel that he gets quite the love and recognition he deserves from fandom in general, so I kind of stubbornly overdo my expressions of it to make up for it somehow. Because he is so wonderful as the Doctor, he really is.
On the other end of the spectrum, his frustration when he yells at River in response to her telling him that his plan for getting Amy through the forest will never work is so palpable. I can identify with him here – as alien as Eleven is, I find myself able to do that more often than is entirely comfortable, LOL. I get snappish when I'm really frustrated like that too, and the delivery is so pitch-perfect that it reminds me eerily of myself at those times. Once again, the emotion feels true to life for me. It also helps that he is so expressive, I can read every look on his face so easily.
I can't help but notice that Amy seems nearly about to cry with relief when the Doctor's voice comes through on the communicator. The disappearances of the clerics have made this situation even more terrifying for her than it already is. Not just because they lose their memories of the others, but because they're leaving her all alone. Just being left all alone is scary enough to her, and now she's all by herself in a forest full of Weeping Angels? No wonder she panics when the last cleric's voice turns into static, and is so relieved when the Doctor starts speaking to her a moment later. He may not be with her physically at the moment, but he's still alive, he's still there for her and hasn't abandoned her, hasn't forgotten about her. There is hope, and that still has the power to overwhelm her, no matter how resistant to it she's become over the years. It's a tiny moment, but one that is important to me, all the more because I know what that feels like. I don't believe anyone who says that Karen Gillan can't act, because she gave me so much from just that little inflection. She is perfect for Amy, and I love them both.
"Get a grip" and "the gravity of the situation" are puns I most definitely approve it. 😀 It's a thoroughly awesome moment, made all the better by an appearance of "I Am the Doctor". Murray Gold FTW. I remember in the commentary for Time of Angels, Moffat and Karen Gillan discussed how the scenes just feel so much better, more complete, more believable, etc. when the sound effects people have gotten their stuff done and Murray Gold has worked his magic. I totally believe that, and can't imagine watching it without his music, it adds so much to the show.
(cont)
And ah, I suppose that brings us to the controversial scene at the very end of the episode, doesn't it? Well, first, before that, I love how she unintentionally messes with him in the TARDIS and how sad he looks when he thinks she wants to stop traveling with him. But onto the scene itself. On the one hand, I totally understand discomfort with her being aggressive after he's said no – that's not okay for anyone to do, regardless of gender.
On the other hand, though, I feel we should all Just Say No to slut-shaming her for the mere act of wanting to have a roll in the hay with the Doctor. I don't approve of it in general, and have previously mentioned that, so I won't repeat myself. Basically, not cool, not ever. Not even here. Yes, I know she'd be cheating on her fiance. But the thing is, she is a young woman with severe trust and abandonment issues, already having cold feet, whose brain is currently a bit clouded due to having an incredibly terrifying near-death experience. People do tend to do wacky, impulsive things after such experiences, so it's very human and understandable. Couple that with the aforementioned issues and cold feet the night before her wedding, and you've just got a recipe for disaster, AKA her desire to have a one-night stand with him. It would probably be a bad idea, and certainly would have some disastrous fallout in her relationship with Rory, but I'm not going to slut-shame her, particularly when she's not thinking entirely straight after what she's been through. In short, while I do feel that her aggression towards him after he seems to reject her can be read as problematic, and it does make me a bit uncomfortable, at the same time I am very very not cool with it being used as grounds to slut-shame her. I also think that the scene is meant to be uncomfortable, that it's a demonstration of how very screwed-up Amy is (hence the Doctor's desire to get her sorted). tl;dr I HAVE VERY MIXED FEELINGS, OKAY? DEALWITHIT.GIF. It might seem at first like a joke (albeit one that isn't funny), but underneath is something very sad that says a lot about what Amy's been through mental health-wise, similar to the bit about the four psychiatrists. They weren't able to help her, and in fact being sent to them and being disbelieved has only hurt her. She was already dealing with abandonment issues before she met Eleven that night, and the results of telling people about that meeting have only exacerbated the problem. She doesn't trust anyone not to leave her, so she's using the adventures with the Doctor as a way to run away from "real life", from the prospect of marriage that scares her so. This scene is, I think, a symptom of deeper problems within Amy, so I've reconciled myself to feeling uncomfortable with it because I don't think I should feel any other way. Not because she's a slut, but because she has things in her psyche she really needs to face up to and work out. Which is always interesting character stuff, so… let's see where this journey takes us!
Whew. I think that was even longer than the review for ToA!
Talking of Jacob from TWOP above just makes me wish you could do this shit on a professional basis. As always, <3.
I agree absolutely! I always take care to read every word of arctic_hare's reviews. I may not always agree – I just *nearly* always do – but I enjoy your writing anyway.
Basically THIS to your whole comment but also:
Stop teasing me, you two! I like them together a lot more than I liked her with Ten, I think Alex and Matt just have much more chemistry. If they hook up at some point, I will not complain, I will enjoy it, simply because it would be smoking hot.
Rewatching this episode this morning I realised that I ship Doctor/River a lot more than I had previously thought. I even had 'just kiss already' in my notes for that scene as well.
THIS. THIS. THIS, to everything you've said. Your reviews have been amazing for every episode this series.
"I like them together a lot more than I liked her with Ten, I think Alex and Matt just have much more chemistry."
Especially this. It could be really awkward because of the age difference but it really isn't.
"Speaking of River, do I spy with my little eye a touch of jealousy in thine gaze, Doctor, when Octavian says that they're engaged "in a manner of speaking"? HMMMM. 😀 "
I think I may have spied it too. That Octavian is the one that suggests it says a lot about him and really makes me wish we could have had more time with him.
I think you said everything I wanted to say about Amy getting on the Doctor except WAY BETTER. <3 It's a deeply uncomfortable scene for a lot of really good reasons (all of which you elaborate) but none of those reasons are "Amy's a slut!"
Even if one WERE concerned with whether or not this is a slutty thing to do, it's just… not. Given her relationship with the Doctor, which is has lasted most of her life and is seriously complicated (and since she's made her fiancé roleplay as the Doctor, DUH of course she's given sexytimes with the Doctor some prior thought), it doesn't even qualify as "slutty" to me. How prudish do you have to be to classify this as "slutty"?
I just don't get the Amy = slutty thing from any angle.
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Lol, you have done it again! THIS to all of this. 😀
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Another FANTASTIC review, Arctic_hare. Seriously, between you and Stephen_M, I don't know why I even bother typing anything of my own… 😀
the common criticism that Moffat doesn't write emotional scenes well,
The only basis that I can think of for that particular criticism is nothing but bias from people who are still bent out of shape from RTD not being the head writer anymore. And that's not just me being snarky, because I think that both Moffat and RTD have areas that they're good in when it comes to writing. And another thing is that I have Aspergers Syndrome (professionally diagnosed)- so emotions and body language are a bit of a grey area for me to understand, but if there's one thing I came away with from this series: even I can see that Moffat writes emotional scenes like these incredibly well.
DDDDD: THAT GRAPHIC. I think it's almost scarier than the ones of just the video clip from Time of Angels.
I love how well you just get Amy. You've made me love her in even more ways than I thought possible.
I completely disagree, but please don't down vote. It's rude.
I don't downvote people with negative opinions who actually provide some sort of arguments as to why they don't like certain character or episode. Simply saying "I hate character XY" is bashing in my book and deserves a downvote.
Yeah, I'm not going to downvote, but it's kind of off to just say you hate a character and then not say why. I'd be happy to read a well-thought-out comment on why someone hates Amy, even if I don't agree with him/her.
Um, that's a bit tone-argument-ish, IMO. Not everyone has the time or inclination to leave a comment, and the -vote buttons are a pretty handy way to express agreement or disagreement with minimal fuss. I don't really see what's rude about that.
I'm sure a lot of people will comment on the last scene with Amy and the Doctor, so all I'll say about it is that it makes me uncomfortable, although I also find it refreshing that Amy is overtly sexual with the Doctor but also not in love with him
Agreed. I love it 100%. I love that Amy GOES THERE, because it's such an understandable reaction, even if it is also totally uncomfortable and shouldn't be happening. But the reasons it shouldn't be happening have nothing to do with Amy liking sex.
I'm not a fan, either.
I love your comment.
There is definitely a huge difference between not being monogamous and cheating, and I think it gets over-looked a lot. I think cheating is a no-good-very-bad thing, no matter which person is cheating, or why, or whatever. In my experience, any of the excuses people give for cheating basically just point to "well, maybe you shouldn't be in a monogamous relationship right now." Being in an open relationship is totally different, provided that all people involved know about it. Open relationships aren't for everybody, but that doesn't make them bad or wrong. I assumed that Amy and Rory are monogamous, based off of his reaction in 11th Hour when the Doctor says something about "the good looking one." He seemed annoyed and uncomfortable about it, so I thought the possibility that Amy might want to be with someone else was a sore spot, or at least something he would rather not happen.
I love that Amy is actually sexual. Rose and Martha both seemed so asexual to me, even though they were both so into the Doctor. Even Rose's relationship with Mickey seemed like it was lacking in that area. It was just a little weird to me.
I always got the idea that while Amy and Rory might be in a monogamous relationship, Rory would be willing to look the other way/forgive a certain amount of messing around from Amy. We don't know if she still works as a kissogram, but if she does Rory would at least have to be comfortable with the idea of Amy kissing other dudes for her job.
I love that Amy is actually sexual. Rose and Martha both seemed so asexual to me, even though they were both so into the Doctor. Even Rose's relationship with Mickey seemed like it was lacking in that area. It was just a little weird to me.
Hey hey hey, watch it with calling asexual people weird. It's perfectly okay to be in love with someone for who they are/what they do without wanting sexual contact from it, even when it comes to long relationships. I'm asexual and the comments throughout fandom about Rose and Martha's (on screen) asexuality have always been a bit prejudiced against asexuality, which hurts.
Oh gosh, that is not what I meant at all, but I totally see how it looks that way! In my haste to make a comment before my boss showed up, I was inarticulate and unintentionally offensive. Please accept my apology before I expand in a very long-winded manner.
In short: I think the writers did both Rose and Martha a huge disservice by making them seem physically attracted to the Doctor at times and then ignoring it or worse in other episodes, and I am very glad that Moffat took a very different approach in this episode.
In long:
I'll start with Rose, since she came first. There are a few times in her run where it seems to me that she fancies the Doctor. Specifically (and the most blatantly) when they're in New New York and Cassandra is jumping between their bodies. Cassandra-as-the-Doctor makes a comment about "those parts" not being used in a very long time, and then says something about Rose having "those kind of feelings" about the Doctor. While I understand that this is a family show, and it might be a inappropriate to show Rose and the Doctor undressing in the TARDIS, I think it's really weird and unfortunate that it's brought up like this and then largely ignored. I'm all for loving someone for who they are with an intense intellectual and/or emotional connection, but I feel like, if the writers wanted to take that route, they should have left out that part of Cassandra's dialogue. I also feel like it added insult to injury when Rose met Sarah Jane for the first time and was initially jealous in a way that came off, to me, as being offended that the Doctor had taken other attractive women on the TARDIS, which I feel wouldn't have happened if her attraction to the Doctor wasn't at least partially physically-sexually (of course, people get jealous for all sorts of reasons, but I'm saying that based on my experience). In the end, she got her resolution with Handy, and she didn't hesitate to kiss him right in front of the Doctor when he whispered sweet nothings in her ear. I personally found that really insulting, because I feel like if her attraction is with the Doctor and what he can offer her as a friend and companion, then a clone who can physically grow old with her wouldn't be a suitable consolation prize. And as for Rose/Mickey, it still does seem strange for me that she can want to be physical with the Doctor, whom she only just met, but not her boyfriend of who knows how many years. When I factor in the head games she plays with Mickey, I just think that if he isn't fulfilling her needs (emotionally or physically) she would have broken up with him even before the Doctor came along.
(cont…)
Martha, I think, really gets the shit end of the stick. In Smith and Jones, when the Doctor kisses her to fool the Judoon, she gets this look on her face like she's just gotten the best kiss of her life and then tops it off with "…that was nothing?" looking all swoony. And I get it, Ten is attractive and he just kissed her in a very emotionally charged setting, but the way it was handled afterwards just really irks me. In Shakespeare, when they're about to share a bed and she comments on it being a little cozy, she looks so upset that he doesn't want a cuddle (which is so heartbreaking to me). But then the writers largely ignore it, saving her crush for awkward moments like in Human Nature/Family of Blood when she gets so upset about Joan (which makes sense in a way, because he fell in love with Joan and not Martha, but I feel like as smart and rational as Martha was, she would have also realized that it was because he was human in this instant but that when he is Time Lord, Martha was still incredibly important to him) and then again in Utopia when she meets Jack and finds out that Rose was a blonde and realizes again that, physically, she is not the Doctor's type. I think Martha is a fierce, bright, bold woman who would not hesitate to say to the Doctor "Hey, I fancy you, so what do you think?" especially since she made him sit down and tell her all about his past, his planet, and the Time War, and I also think that she would be mature enough to fully accept that he doesn't see her in that way and be more than content to have a non-physical relationship. Instead, she just seems hurt in so many episodes and totally ok with it in others. I think it would have been a much better resolution for her, and I think it would also cut back on those moments when the Doctor is mean about it.
I have always gotten the impression that the Doctor is asexual, at least when it comes to humans, so all ships seem a little weird to me. The Doctor chooses his companions very well, and I think all of them would be able to realize that he's not a physical sort of lover and accept that their love for him and vice versa would just be as a personality/intellectual/emotional relationship, which would be just as satisfying as a physical expression of love, if not more so. That's part of why I was so glad that Donna didn't see the Doctor in that way. I loved that they had such a wonderful, loving, fulfilling relationship without it ever hinting that either found the other physically attractive. What I loved about the very very uncomfortable moment with Amy going after the Doctor was that he was so genuinely shocked that she would ever think of him that way. Part of that, I'm sure, is because she was a little girl 5 minutes ago, but I think there's also the aspect that she's a human and he's a Time Lord and he's just not interested in going there, ever.
I guess it's basically that I find it annoying and insulting to Rose and Martha that they have great, non-physically sexual relationships with the Doctor some of the time, but when it makes a great plot-point or conflict, they become like mopey jealous lovers who aren't getting enough attention.
I had debated leaving out that point in my original comment: "with Rose and Martha it was sort of weirdly asexual to me (given they both seemed physically attracted to him) and mostly about "love""
I left it in cause I hoped the parenthetical was enough, and that I also tried to quickly convey that their attraction to the Doctor didn't seem wholly about the romantic/intellectual, hence "love" in quotes. I didn't want to make it a big point, but I was conscious of the fact that it could be interpreted as dismissal of asexuality, which was not my intention. So thanks for putting it in so many words what I wanted to say, since I wasn't sure if I should or not when I originally wrote it since it was tangential to the episode.
It's difficult to tell if a character is or is not asexual unless they pretty explicitly say/show they're not interested in any of the physicality. So I personally read the Doctor as asexual. But for the companions, while the potential is there since it's not like we've seen them have sex, I wouldn't consider any of the new Who companions to be asexual in canon.
So my basis for making my comment originally was that I don't consider Rose and Martha to be asexual, much for the reasons you stated, hence their lack of sexuality bothered me.
Hopefully you're reading this, Fuchsia, and that I'm sorry for any offense caused, even if your comment wasn't a reply to me directly. For what it's worth, I promise it's not the notion of asexuality that I wanted to comment on as weird, since I love the Doctor being asexual. Personally, I think a canonically asexual companion would be awesome. It's just that when I don't consider a character to be asexual, the lack or sexuality seems jarring to me.
The crack is so interesting. Is it considered a villain or a monster?
I don't know. I just know crack can really consume your life, kids!
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry 😉
Tell that to Rose.
Evidence.
My initial thought after I'd come down from the 'holy crap that was good' high was this: RTD, THIS is how you do a series arc. No little bits of dialogue thrown in once an episode, no little asides, a great big honking obvious thing that gets introduced in episode 1, brought back a bit, brought back a LOT (along with a whole host of questions) and then… well, why spoil the surprise 😀
Yes, this!
Well yes, but to be fair, Steven Moffat is writing Doctor Who in a very different TV climate to RTD. When Russell brought back Doctor who, it was a huge risk. Nobody had any idea if it would work. They didn't know if anybody would watch, let alone watch faithfully week after week. So the Bad Wolf thing in Series 1 was as far as anyone sensible would have dared go in that situation.
Series 2 Torchwood arc was more obvious, because by now there was evidence that it could work and people *would* follow a series arc over 13 episodes.
Series 3 gets more complex with Saxon, YANA, Lazarus, Sinister Man/Woman and phone tapping, Chameleon Arch/fob Watch and the Master.
Series 4 has so many seires arc components, I'm not even going to try to list them all.
So the arcs got bolder year on year.
Series 5 and Steven Moffat has inherited a show that has huge viewing figures week on week, and he feels confident that an arc can be even more complex. But I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't have done that had he been the one to bring the show back in 2005.
I will say in RTD's defense that when he was on, he could thread thematic arcs throughout a season like nobody's business. S1 and S3, especially succeeded pretty darn well on that count.
UGH, YES. I LOVE that we're finally getting a series-long arc that isn't just random words thrown in here and there.
Oh yes, that is one of my favorite tweets of his. No wonder he's so good writing with kids!
I love this two-parter. You summed it up perfectly, I really have nothing to add…
"Oh god, Moffat, you are a genius can I bake you some cookies"
Let's send him some Jammie Dodgers.
Also, there are two "Meanwhile in the TARDIS" scenes which take place between Eleventh Hour/Beast Below and between Flesh and Stone and the next ep. They are non-spoilerish and HILARIOUS.
Between Eleventh Hour/Beast Below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaOPe4emP9Y
Between Flesh and Stone/Next Ep (not sure if you know the title; the video spoils it, though): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeJ4Ak2xCkw&fe…
<img src="http://i54.tinypic.com/nxwa51.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"> to your whole section about Amy.
We should have known. All along, Moffat was on the bad guys' side. He was just using us to build an army of Angels via our TVs, with which he will take over the world.
Clearly Amy needs the Feelings Are Boring, Kissing Is Awesome shirt from Dinosaur Comics.
(Young) Amy wanting to kiss the (immortal) Doctor & him saying Do Not Want remind me of Bella/Edward (sorry, sorry). MAYBE HE'S CONCERNED ABOUT HIS VIRTUE. That idea brings me LOLs but the scene itself did not for the many reasons that people have already discussed.
I don't like the hints about River's murdery future, they make me worry for everyone involved. Can't they all stay awesome forever?
I love indoor forests, especially on spaceships.
SO MUCH WORD, especially the bit about Amy.
I had a hard time with this two-parter the first time around because I felt like it messed with the established mythology of the Weeping Angels a little too much. On second watch, there's actually quite a lot to like here, but it still bugs me that the Angels don't apparently have the rule about freezing when they can see each other anymore (in the scene where Amy is walking with her eyes closed especially), since that was so key to the plot of "Blink".
Also, I loathe that final scene. I get that it was intended to be humorous, but ugh. I HATE IT. It was awful and horrifically uncomfortable to watch. I know that a lot of people like that Amy is in charge of her sexuality, and that’s great and all. But that doesn’t mean that she’s not being completely awful here. This is the DAY before her wedding and she’s trying to put the moves on another man. Maybe it’s just my affinity for Rory that is making me so protective of him, but that is just not on. Also, I understand that there is a history of the way that sexism has worked in our culture that does make it significant that Amy is the aggressor here and not the Doctor, but that still doesn’t make it ok. I mean, let’s swap the genders and roles in this scene. The Doctor is now chasing Amy down, pulling at her clothes and trying to get her to have sex with him while she is telling him no. SEE HOW GROSS THAT IS? Even though it seems less bad to us because in our history and culture it is usually the men who are the aggressors in situations like this, THAT DOESN’T MAKE WHAT AMY DID OK. It’s still pretty awful. If someone is telling you no and pushing you away, LEAVE IT. Don’t go after them and make them kiss you. Ugh. But nope, this is all slapstick comedy. HARDY HAR HAR. Ugh.
Just THIS to your last point. Seeing the discomfort on Eleven's face as she's clawing at him made me cringe. If they would have at least had her apologize for coming on so strong or something, but no! She's hot Doctor, you should just be happy she wants you! Ugh. Just no.
Edited to add: I want to clarify that I don't blame Amy for these actions, maybe the cheating, but not how creepy she was being. I blame them on creators of tv and movies who find this acceptable and even funny or sexy.
I want to clarify that I don't blame Amy for these actions, maybe the cheating, but not how creepy she was being. I blame them on creators of tv and movies who find this acceptable and even funny or sexy.
This. I think it's great the Amy has a healthy view of sex (the healthiest one I've seen since Kaylee in Firefly), but the way it was executed was just terrible.
Actually, I think the scene between Amy and the Doctor is, and is intended to be, totally disturbing. Amy's behavior is NOT OK, the Doctor's rejection of her is perfectly understandable, and it SHOULD be hard to watch.
I really hope it was intended to be disturbing because i think it's awful, but it does read to me a bit like they were going to a slapstick type vibe. Also, after this episode aired, a couple of people on my lj friends list were like "totally shipping Amy/Eleven now". D:
Given the fandom Twilight has and some of the pairings I've seen (like the one I ranted about in the ship wars thread over on the forums), that really doesn't surprise me. Some people are just… ugh. I try to just ignore their existence, lest it make me weep too much for humanity.
Oh god. Yeah. People like some pretty messed-up ships. By "people" I include myself, mind you.
On the other hand, I think the emotionally messed-up ships I get on board with are interesting to me because they resonate with the kind of fucked-up things that people (like, uh, me) actually do. (Ten/Rose falls into this category for me. Rose loves the impossible and it's never going to work out, EVER, and the Doctor knows it or should, but he's never going to tell her, because he's totally emotionally inarticulate. SO not healthy, but so very like relationships I have had. I'm not going to mention the other really fucked ship I like because it'd be spoilery for BtVS but if you've seen it you probably know which one.)
Whereas the ships that people are into in Twilight seem to have way less to do with emotional realism/resonance and much more with a twisted idea of what's romantic. (STALKING IS NOT ROMANTIC, STOP LISTENING TO THE POLICE OK?) I have a feeling that Amy/Eleven shippers fall more into the latter category than the former…
I don't think there's anything wrong at all with liking messed up ships if one acknowledges that they're messed up! But the people in that latter category… yeah, they creep me out. It's one thing to have a fictional relationship resonate with you for reasons like you described, but to see nothing wrong with bad behavior and ROMANTICIZE it… yeah, basically THIS to what you said.
Have you seen this? http://reasoningwithvampires.tumblr.com/
It's my favorite thing ever about why Twilight is NOT ROMANTIC, by means of basically pointing out a lot of the bad behavior.
Yes! 😀 I love that site!
Love your comment. I feel the same way.
I think the difference between your (and my!) love of screwed-up pairings is that we are aware of how mess up they are. We can enjoy the ship without thinking it is an example of a healthy, positive relationship. I personally feel messed-up ships make great television.
The problem with things like Twilight is that the relationship is portrayed as healthy. And then we have legions of girls thinking that is what their relationships should be. (codependent and somewhat abusive)
Basically, I can enjoy watching fuck-up romances onscreen, but I would never support it in real life.
EDIT: So I essentially just repeated what arctic_hare said. OOPS.
I think if it wasn't intended to be disturbing, we would have seen the Doctor being more into things (despite his protestations). As it's played though, he pretty much TOTALLY REJECTS her. He looks sooooo uncomfortable sitting there on the bed with her. He does not for one second seem amused. And if his mind is anyplace, it's on sorting out why the universe is literally cracking.
As for why Amy pounces him, I think it has way more to do with her issues about trust, commitment, and abandonment—all Doctor-induced—coming to the surface after a really intense experience, especially one where the Doctor has shown that he does actually care for her quite a lot. She's trying to sort that out, or maybe drown it out, with sex, because that seems like something easy, something easier than actually dealing with her issues. But getting on top of your childhood imaginary friend who turned out to be real at pretty much the worst time and place ever (literally!) is just NOT the way to deal with it. Even if it's an understandable impulse…
ITA, I think it was meant to be uncomfortable. The Doctor is clearly not okay with it, Amy seems kind of manic and unhinged, and frankly I think it's supposed to be a bit disturbing.
The scene ridiculizes Amy's sexuality as well.
I totally disagree.It's perfectly understandable to want to have sex right after you almost died.
I completely agree with you that the final scene was EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE to watch. If it was intended to be humorous, then..yeah, that's pretty fucking awful.
Wrapped in a conundrum? 🙂
You know, I really appreciate your review and others like it, because I just get the giddy, didn't-really-think-about-it effect from Doctor Who. I watched the episode and I really enjoyed the ride, but in retrospect, it really does have all of the flaws you mention. It is more about running around than getting anything done, and seems to just be a stage for future adventures.
And while I happen to love slapstick, I see your point about the end and I now agree. It's not okay just because Amy is a girl; it's still awful behavior. I'm a little upset with myself for ignoring that it's wrong to make other people uncomfortable with your advances just because I enjoyed the episode or didn't find Amy threatening. Thank you for your reviews!
Yeah, but that's what I love about Ten and his love for Rose. It did make him more human. I like being able to relate to the Doctor, and I think that Ten's humanity made him a really relatable character.
That's the role of the companion, though, to be the character the audience can relate to – the Doctor is supposed to be this mysterious alien; we get to know him a bit, but never fully, never too close. That's why Ten's OTT "humanity" was a bit OOC for the Doctor.
You are so not prepared, Mark. SO NOT PREPARED.
OKAY. I'm probably going to say something that may surprise some people. (Or no people, considering that I made a big song-and-dance about it on the spoiler blog.)
But the Amy seducing the Doctor scene made me a bit uncomfortable. It's a sort of combination of how sensuality unseats me a little (seriously. Even porn weirds me out), how I don't like idea of the Doctor having casual sex with companions, especially one who's about to get engaged (it makes the idea of an old man picking up young women across the universe feel kinda creepy), how flustered the Doctor is by all this, and the fact that this is a show aimed at children.
It doesn't change my opinion of Amy, the Doctor, or Moffat, but the scene just feels weird to me.
But even this aside, it's still a truly fantastic episode. Most worthy of all the cookies.
I agree with this completely. The thing I dislike about the scene isn't that Amy is so forward with the Doctor, it's that he obviously doesn't want to kiss her and she disregards that.
The first time I watched this I kind of laughed, but I was young(er) then. <s>Yes I realize that it came out about a year ago, which makes me still unable to drive, don't judge my development :(</s> But then I started actually paying attention to the things I watched and read and then I rewatched this with my friend, and yeah. The scene is really damn uncomfortable. Imagine it gender-switched if you want to make it worse.
I'm pretty damn sure it's supposed to be uncomfortable though, pointing out that Amy is being clingy and trying to escape into the fantasy she's been dreaming up since Fish Custard. And if I had a fantasy, I'm fairly certain that sexing up Matt Smith would be part of it…
I actually like this episode of this two-parter more than the first (which, the first part was fantastic, don't get me wrong). The scenes with Amy in the forest with her eyes closed were so scary and creepy AND SO DANG CLOSE. Everything's filmed in close-ups and it's so claustrophobic. I genuinely feel like I am Amy with my eyes shut in the middle of this forest surrounded by murdering-psychopathic-alien-statues and one is living in my head ready to kill me. And then you have that one little bit where the Doctor comes back for a moment and asks Amy to trust him before he leaves with River (I loved it the first time I saw it and I love it with each re-watch). That is my favorite Amy-Doctor scene in this season so far because Amy is scared to death – and by extension, I'm scared to death. I did NOT want the Doctor to leave Amy at that point because, good grief, how can you leave that girl in the forest like that?? What are those soldiers going to be able to do to protect her if the Angels start coming after them? But then he comes back for just a moment. I love it because it goes back to Amy's issues with people leaving her and promising to come back – and the Doctor's insistence that she has to trust him now, even though she still has doubts – I LOVE IT!
Pretty much everything with Amy in that forest is so wonderfully done and brilliant. Between the Doctor sending the signal to help her get through and his frustration at having left her, Amy's fear and her determination to find the Doctor and – by the way – THE ANGELS START MOVING!! LIKE, WE SEE THE ANGELS MOVE!!! AND COME AFTER AMY!!!
<img src="http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/Jenny_Wildcat/Oh%20Crap%20gifs/4kbsbm.gif" border="0" alt="Image Source,Photobucket Uploader Firefox Extension">
STEVEN MOFFAT – YOU WONDERFUL, SCARY, AWESOME HUMAN BEING, YOU!!!
Now, some people gripe about the crack eating the Weeping Angels and that it's sort of a nice and tidy and cheap way of saving everyone and ending the episode. But for me, that's the point where I realized that shit was about to get SO REAL and I wanted more explanation of the crack and why the hell it was there when it had been in Amy's room, on the Starship UK and in the Cabinet War Room – and why the Doctor was so freaked out by it.
All I can say is YOU ARE NOT PREPARED.
Yeah, I prefer Eleven being more alien; to me, he shouldn't be too human, because at the end of the day he's fundamentally not human, no matter how much he may look it (or rather, humans look Time Lord).
Funnily enough, though, I can relate/identify more with Eleven than the too human (for me) Ten. LOL I can't help but wonder about what that says about me.
This! The Doctor for me is best when he's relate-able but not entirely human. If I want to consume entertainment centered around a time-traveling human, I can most certainly do that, but that's not what I come to Who for.
THIS to your whole comment, but especially the relating more to Eleven than Ten bit. Yeah, I have no idea what that means, but it's true. 😀
I hear you, haha. I always identify with the odd ones (o hay Luna Lovegood) and Eleven is about as odd as you can get.
Something I like about the Doctor being more alien is that it's kind of cool to see what humans are like through his eyes. When he's awkward or baffled by us, it makes you go, "Hey, yeah, that is kinda weird, why do we do that?" and that's pretty cool, right?
Maybe I'm just nitpicking, (okay, i am nitpicking)but I was pretty disappointed that we saw a clip of an angel moving in this episode. The fact that we never actually saw them move is part of what made them so scary.
Apart from that, I liked this episode.
I think they were filmed in stop-motion, and that is why we think we are seeing them move? I could be wrong though.
I think they were moving between the frames of the film. Those things break the fourth wall all to hell, which is why they're so goddamn creepy.
The giant Cyberking is explained! I wonder whether this was planned or Moffat included it to clean up some of RTD's plot holes…
The way it was lampshaded in The Next Doctor made me wonder. Looking at The Writer's Tale, it's conceivable that he might have known, but one can't be sure.
I think your comment sums up how I felt after watching this ep the first time. I'm liking it a bit more this time around reading everyone else's thoughts but I definitely see where you're coming from!
The last scene has me convinced that Eleven is afraid of cooties.
I still maintain that he briefly looked like he didn't mind much. :: grins ::
Still, I think he was squicked out because she's also a little girl in his mind. Ah, Eleven, I adore you for looking out for Amy in a respectful, reasonable way.
Am i the only one who thinks the final scene was just a callback to Coupling,? Moffat was just playing it for laughs.
what last bit and what bit of coupling? I've not watched any coupling for aaaages now (which is un natural! UN NATURAL! :P) so I have no idea what you're referring to!
I think its on mark list to watch so won't go into details, but there is a character on coupling who's not shy about trying it on with people.
Steven Moffat, please adopt me.
i would second this…but, apparently he gets some of his creepy ideas from things he knows actually freak his kids out (you think that's scary dear? let me write an episode about it…)
so, if he adopted you, that would mean custom-made nightmare fuel.
I am so not prepared for this early post!
I love this episode even more than the first part. The pace is relentless, but the tone changes with the move into the Forest and the appearance of the crack. The angels are revealed to be sadistic bastards in ways that they weren't before. I mean, the laughing? I will never forget that sound. They make Amy count because it amuses them to scare her. WTF??? Somehow having AngelBob as the voice makes it a million times worse.
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/2z8rt5w.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Amy's wanderings in the forest are tense and scary and beautiful. How great is it that River saves the day? I love it.
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I mentioned yesterday that I loved the character interactions in Part 1, but they are even more wonderful here. The bonds and conversations between the Doctor and Octavian, the Doctor and Amy, Amy and River, River and the Doctor, etc. are all touching in their own way. I didn't get a chance to rewatch recently, but I remember there being an insane number of wonderful quotes and lines. One that really gets me is River's "You. Me. Handcuffs. Must it always end this way." After the library episode, that is a really bittersweet moment. 🙁
<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/23mvf40.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
I LOVE that we get a progression of the season arc this early into the series. It feels like it's an actual developing plot rather than just a dropped reference. YMMV, but I prefer this kind of story arc.
I honestly don't mind the bit at the end, because I think Amy's actions seem in character here. Also it gives us cute gifs like this:
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Last but not least, YANP.
"Somehow having AngelBob as the voice makes it a million times worse."
My favorite part of the episode is the way that the Doctor taunts and baits AngelBob. Like "get a life, Bob. Sorry, sore subject." Or, "I made him say comfy chairs." It's just so passive aggressive and hilarious.
Awesome gifs are awesome! My favorite pic that you posted is the one of Amy in the forest with the Angels. That is such a beautiful shot, it really evokes "Little Red Riding Hood" for me. Plus the colors are just gorgeous. This series is scenery porn for me, it really is.
God, so agreed about the scenery porn. I say it over and over again, but I love how this series looks. "Little Red Riding Hood" is exactly what it reminds me of, and I enjoy the fairy-tale sense of it.
Yeah, I'm really big on fairy tales and mythology, so I eat this sort of thing up with a big, big spoon. 😀
I don't think I will ever tire of seeing videos of Matt and Karen behind the scenes. They're just wonderful and hilarious.
When you said that David Tennant will always be your Doctor, I just smiled and thought, "wait 'till you see Matt". 🙂
I think Karen and Matt have great chemistry together.
It was really nice to have the crack in time explained in this episode.
THIS!!!!
That's also why I liked Donna so much. I was just so sick of companions being all lovey-dovey with the Doctor, who is an alien, but more importantly 907 and regenerates instead of dying. It just…..UGH. I understand that part of the companion's roll is to humanize the Doctor, but I don't think the only way to do that is to make him a lover.
I agree with you that Rose and Martha's pinning for the Doctor got old. That is one of the reasons why I enjoyed Donna so much. She had a great platonic relationship with the Doctor. I thought that Amy had a few mixed feelings about the Doctor. The scene at the end of this episode was one of the signs that she was testing the waters a little bit.
I'm sure a lot of people will comment on the last scene with Amy and the Doctor, so all I'll say about it is that it makes me uncomfortable
Not that authorial intention is that important here, but I don't think you're supposed to feel comfortable with that scene. Like, the point of the scene is feeling uncomfortable. (None of which has anything to do with Amy being sexual or anything.)
I don't think you're supposed to feel comfortable with that scene.
This. Exactly. This is why I don't get the complaint that "well it just made me uncomfortable". um, yeah because the scene was SUPPOSED to be uncomfortable. I think it was kind of brilliant myself, as uncomfortable as it made me feel. I honestly appreciated that finally the attraction between a companion and the Doctor (or rather the attraction a companion had for the Doctor) was being addressed and it was the companion that brought it up. A nice change from Rose and Martha who basically never talked about it until like the end and just pined (or in Martha's case got over it).
Me too! It's exactly the kind of snarky assholery I find hilarious.
Me four! Also as we know from Curse of the Fatal Death (I am just going to bring it up until Mark watches it!) the Doctor as Moffat imagines him rather likes comfortable furniture 😀
To quote a wise woman: "OMG YES YES YES THIS TWO PARTER! <3 <3 <3" (Sorry if arctic_hare is a guy, my judgement on your gender is entirely based on your previous avatar of Amy!)
One other thing however, I'm desperate to know what Mark thought of the Angels moving?!?!!?
I was just sitting there like:
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Lol, I'm not Mark, but I AGREE WITH YOUR REACTION!!!
😀
LOL, no worries, I am a woman! 😀 And perfect reaction gif!
I thought there was a pretty strong suggestion that the man that River supposedly killed was the Doctor. But, as you say, time can be rewritten. Even if she does end up killing the Doctor, I'm sure he would just regenerate anyway. So, they are either going to avoid going back to that story until Matt decides to leave the show, or they will rewrite time, or something else. The nice thing about Moffat is that he tries to keep a line going through the years. Who would have thought that the crash of the Byzantium would be mentioned years later.
"Who would have thought that the crash of the Byzantium would be mentioned years later."
…
!!!!!!!!!!!
Fridge Brilliance just kicked in for me, only it wasn't really brilliant because I didn't even recognize the name "Byzantium" and sdfghjkl;ghjkl must rewatch Library…
"I think that this episode is a good way to explore the problem that I have with River as a character. What we learn about her doesn’t ever let us know HER better. … It just adds another layer of mystery to what she’s DONE. … I don’t want to know what she did. I want to know who she is as a person."
Myself, I prefer the 'show don't tell' approach here – what she's done and how she behaves are pretty good reflections of who she is, and we do get a little of that here. As this episode doesn't concern directly those mysteries, I don't see why it should be an in-depth character study. She's trying to keep him in the dark, she doesn't WANT him to know too much, and whilst that's used as a plot device, it's also the only sensible behaviour her character could take.
We will hopefully see more of River's character in the future! 🙂
True, but does she have to be so annoying and smug about it!!?
Haha, I'm just biased because I totally would be! XD
So, so great! I love that shot near the end when they're on the beach, looking at the sea and stormy clouds above.
Oh the kissing at the end! In the Confidential for this episode they filmed that clip but instead the Doctor kisses her back for a moment before pushing her away. So they had two versions to go with. Guess they didn't want viewers to think that he was into her…
Yesterday, I'd said that the Weeping Angels have pretty much been the only creatures to ever make me jump out of my chair, and hit the pause button so that I could start cursing up a storm at my computer. This was the moment:
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/1zqu7vl.jpg">
I'd already started up the Time of Angels at 1AM, and watched 'Flesh and Stone' right after because I absolutely needed to find out what would happen. And I made one giant mistake. I thought that the Angels couldn't get any scarier after ToA. WHHHHHHHYYYYY. I was already scared out of my mind for Amy having dropped the locator-thing, and THEN THE ANGEL MOVED. FHDAKJFHDSAKJFHHAU. FHDAKFHEUIAFHJAFJ. JUST F9HRFUUOHFOHFDSHUFS8O. KILL IT WITH A SLEDGE HAMMER. KILL IT WITH ALL THE SLEDGE HAMMERS.
<img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/25oujcl.jpg">
And yes, Mark. Matt's face when Father Octavian is telling him to go on, and that he's at peace. Most badass church guy ever.
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/2nib9e9.jpg">
And of course: behind the scenes from Amy trying to get it with the Doctor:
<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/2rzvtz8.jpg">
There was someone who wrote up a great explanation for that scene. Besides just having gotten out of a terrible situation, one could think that even though Amy's getting married to Rory- Rory symbolizes 'reality' as opposed to the Doctor, who symbolizes 'fantasy'. And even though Amy probably loves Rory enough to marry him- she's also been waiting 14 years to get away from the reality of Leadworth.
That picture of Eleven….;_____________;
Matt and Karen are made of awesome and win, and I need like an entire show following them around.
<badjoke> Isn't that called Doctor Who Confidential? </badjoke>
LOL yes, but I need more! 😀
ELEVEN'S SADFACE ALWAYS MAKES ME WANT TO CRY TOO ;______;
IKR?! If there's ever going to be a moment where Eleven starts crying (not just tears-in-the-eyes) – I will not be suprised if I start crying too. AHFKJA, MATT. YOUR FAAAAACE.
I dare anyone to look at that picture of Matt and say he's too young to play the Doctor.
He may be physically young, but that is the face of a time-worn man who's seen true horrors.
SERIOUSLY!! That face is such an old man sad face. It kills me how perfect it is. GUH, ILU MATT SMITH!
The only thing I remember from the 70s TARDIS-only episode was that, yes, there is a swimming pool.
I totally get your point! I mean, I thought the same thing at first and then
<img src="https://slacportal.slac.stanford.edu/sites/ard_public/echo/PublishingImages/White_Crystal.jpg" alt="crack">
and Amy
<img src="https://slacportal.slac.stanford.edu/sites/ard_public/echo/PublishingImages/White_Crystal.jpg" alt="crack">
Quoted for truth since I totally 100% agree. I mean, how can people even think she was in the wrong when all
Look, I really don't understand what's going on here? Why did the comment get deleted by the administrator? You guys are acting really weird. I'm just going to scroll down and
Be careful!
Who are you talking to? Hey what's with that light, should one of us go check
I can go check. Don't have anything better to do really.
Jeeze, you know this thing is reall
<img src="http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee390/echinodermatasonata/Untitled.jpg">
I don't know. I don't remember posting that. Strange. Must've hit a wrong button or something. Maybe IntenseDebate's acting up again?
I don't mean to be rude or anything, but who are you talking to?
I'm not talking to anyone.
<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/t8p2df.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Your commentary on the chemistry between the actors is interesting as, if I recall correctly, this two-parter was actually filmed FIRST before all other episodes.
Also, now that I've thought about it, I pretty much agree with the rest of your thoughts on this episode. Something bugged me about it, but I didn't know what because I am a horrible critic.
Agreed on River as well. She kind of annoys me.
I'm even more torn on F&S then on TToA. It is even more fascinating and terrifying, that is for sure. And I am surprised how well the movements of the Weeping Angels worked. I would not have expected that if I had known that it would happen. The solution, which is a solution to the whole two parter has not been foreshadowed in any way in TToA. I don't understand why the ship runs out of energy at the exact time the Doctor needs it and why he expects it to happen right then.
I don't know if you have already seen the first "Meanwhile in the TARDIS" DVD bonus scene, Mark, but the second one is set just after this episode and it does shed a bit more light on Amy's behaviour in the final scene. (And is otherwise hilarious as well.) I'm still not too fond of the seduction though.
It was around this time that NASA discovered the following…
<img src="http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/06/23/article-0-0A29A2BA000005DC-974_634x308.jpg">
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/06/23/article…
If anybody needs me, I'm still in the hole I crawled into when this was published.
Apologies for linking to the D*ily M*il, but it was the only version of the story I could find without any spoilers.
Remember how you felt when Wilf knocked four times? Soon you will looking back at that day with fond memories of how well-prepared you were.
We're all doomed *hides under desk and prays to Santa*
I remember my friend sent me that link saying "I knew it!! Doctor Who is a documentary!!" then we all panicked.
Um, I already posted this, like, four episodes ago… 😀
Welp…
Time to pack up my bags and move to a different universe.
I remember the Crack, but I can't remember any Doctor Who existing…
>Remember how you felt when Wilf knocked four times?
Who's Wilf? There's never been a Wilf.
I want to like Amy, I really do. I've tried so hard but 90% of the time I just find her mildly annoying. I also think it is extremely creepy that she met and made a connection with a man as a child, met him again when she was adult and he hadn't aged a day, and now she wants to have sex with that man. It's Girl in the Fireplace all over again, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
And there is something about her as a companion that irks me. Rose, Martha, Donna all would put themselves in dangerous situations and would disobey when the Doctor tells them to stay put, and yet when Amy does it she just seems like a petulant child that hasn't grown up. Which I suppose makes sense when you think about the life she's had, but it doesn't make her likable in my opinion. Then there's her relationship with Rory and how easily she casts him aside for the Doctor, not too mention puts him down constantly, makes me rage. I blame it on the writing more so than I do on Karen Gillian.
Yeah, but……Well, neither Rose, Martha or Donna were left blind (or physically incapable in anyway) during their adventures with the Doctor, and Amy has disobeyed the Doctor in previous episodes. Besides, if she can't open her eyes without dying and she's in an unfamiliar place surrounded by killer statues, what's she supposed to do that's going to be any more helpful than not doing anything? So there's that. And Rose cast off Mickey just as quickly and then over and over again for the Doctor. I can't remember a specific time that Amy put Rory down, but remember how much Nine and Ten put down Mickey, and Rose never spoke up on his behalf. I don't think Amy's faults are exclusive to her, or at least not the ones that show up in this episode.
As for your first point, I agree with you, but it's already been commented on enough so far that I don't want to be redundant by expanding.
I'm not sure I understand your initial point. I wasn't speaking so much about Amy's actions during this particular episode, but more about her character in general.
Rose was never intentionally unkind to Mickey. And I don't want to give specific examples since it's spoilers for episodes Mark hasn't seen yet, but she does it a LOT. I was shocked at how cruel she could be to him.
Guys, what happened to Openattheclose?
Who?
What? Is that some sort of Harry Potter reference? I don't get it.
People, seriously, this isn't
It's a person who was just here.
THANK YOU!
Wait. Who are you thanking? I don't get it…?
Who are you thanking? There's nobody else here. It's very strange to go around thanki
.
What? It's just been you and me.
What are you talking about? There was Openattheclose, E.L.O.S, encinodermia, arctic_hare, and Pedro.
Who are you even talking about? Are you just making up random names now?
None of those people are on this site. Are you sure you're not mixing up people from the other blog or some other site you're on at the mo?
How can you seriously not remember?
I'm sorry but I honestly don't recognise any of those names at all.
They were Mods! Who's going to protect Mark from accidental spoilage?
Mark never had any mods except Karen, what are you even talking about?
Karen's been the only Mod who actively posts here for a while. Are they lurker Mods or something?
Seriously, I'm starting to get angry. YOU KNOW WHO I'M TALKING ABOUT! They went to go look at the crack and they never came back.
I'm sorry but I really don't.
Maybe they're new or something?
Personally, I still think people are getting a different blog mixed up with this one. I mean, that's the only reasonable explanation.
Who's Karen?
You have to remember, psycicflower. Remember all those gifspams you did with Openattheclose? ELSOS runs the spoiler blog! Artic_hare is a mod!
You sure you're on the right site?
I can't even make any sense of that. Gifspams, wha? Gifspams are cool, but I don't remember there being any here. And there's a spoiler blog? Could someone link me, I'd love to discuss spoilery stuff where we won't ruin the surprises for Mark!
I don't know who artic_hare is, though.
I gifspam with a bunch of different people, just yesterday was Misha Collins with _Jen_ We never found out who set up the spoiler blog, although we do love whoever it was for it. doesntsparkle mentioned artic_hare was a mod as well, is s/he a lurker one because I've never seen them post before.
I'll go looking through some older posts and see if their name comes up. Might take a while, but just to be
Yeah, the spoilerblog is a big mystery that we haven't ever solved.
I'm kind of worried about doesntsparkle. It's not good to be having delusions like this.
Yeah, this is scaring me. Poor doesntsparkle. 🙁
I would have all the hug gifs for the person who created the spoiler blog if only we knew who they were.
I think they might've just mixed up sites but now they're convinced they're right. It would be kind of embarrassing after all this hassle for them to come out and say they were wrong.
I think you must have gotten mixed up. This is 'Mark Watches' and there's nobody here that posts with those user names. Are you thinking of some other board?
Those are some really interesting account names–although I mean duh, things open at the close, and who knows what E.L.O.S. stands for– but honestly I've never seen them on Mark Watches before.
Maybe you're posting on the wrong blog? Just a th
<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/14jsw7n.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
This is an arctic hare. I think you're confused. 🙁
Oooh, bunny! 😀 And yeah, I doubt one of them would be posting here. This is all seriously, seriously weird.
Someone said that this blog had an arctic hare as a Mod. How could a bunny be a mod?
Srsly. I doubt they even have internet access. Come on people. Let's be rational here.
I think maybe they dreamed it? Bunnies can't type!
Bear with me, but. I've got a theory; it could be demons?
A hopping demon? No, something isn't right there.
I don't know what it is. It's like we're all stuck inside some wacky freakish nightmare.
You know, I have a suspicion that crack might have something to do with all this. I'm just going to have a closer look…
…It's kind of wierd looking at it. It's really
.
NO PLEASE DON'T
That is a seriously cute picture, I don't know why they're so obsessed with arctic hares though…
I don't know any of those people, but they sound hot. If they turn up, have them give me a call at 1-800-TRCHWOD. They can help me investigate cracks, if you know what I mean.
What do you mean 'just here'? THERE'S NO
Srsly? I know I don't have an account, but I've been stalking this blog for awhile and I've never seen anybody with that screen name post here before.
I've never heard of anyone by that name.
Look this light is really starting to bug me, I'm just gonna go over here and
NOOOO!
Open at the close of what? What are you even talking about?
Seriously.
Okay, and now random OT time: what's everyone's favorite Harry Potter quote?
I don't know if I could pick just one favorite, but I really like this one from Dumbledore:
"You think the dead we love ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them mo
I've always like "It is a strange thing, but when you are dreading something, and would give anything to slow down time, it has a disobliging habit of speeding up."
Then again, I also like each and every time Hermione chides Harry and Ron for never reading Hogwarts: A Histo
I'm sorry. Harry Potter? I've never heard of it. If you're going to talk books, at least pick something people will know about. You'll get more comments that way.
Come ON! You know who I'm talking about.
I'm sorry, but we really don't. Maybe you're thinking of someone from Reads, or another blog entirely. I've gotten mixed up with sites too where there's overlap of members, it's okay.
NO. I'm positive it was this site.
But I don't remember seeing any names like that before you brought them up!
Is this some kind of weird trolling I'm unfamiliar with? I'm a regular here and Karen is the only mod.
No, there are others too! Were others. Openattheclose and arctic_hare are/were both mods. How can you not remember?
How would you know who the Mods are when we've never seen you here before? No one knows those names except for doesn'tsparkle and now oddly you.
Since when is it a crime to lurk? I'm telling you, something is wrong! Please, try to remember!
But there's nothing to remember because those users have never existed on this site.
No, that's not true! Please listen to me… they're all real, every one of them. ELSOS. Echinodermata. Openattheclose. arctic_hare. They really exist, but somehow you've all forgotten them. Please please please just listen and believe me.
Look, I'm listening and I want to believe you, I really do. It would save all this hassle. But I've been here since just before Mark started Doctor Who and I have never heard of those people before tonight.
That's because something is causing people to disappear and be forgotten! I think it's that crack down there. Please, whatever you do, STAY AWAY FROM IT!
But we need to go investigate it OK? It could be something dangerous…
I'll just go and have a lo
Did you come here just to play mind games, or what? It's kind of weird.
I promise you, we're not playing games! That crack, it's eating people and messing with other peoples' memories of them! THIS IS SIRIUS
Cracks can't eat people. Besides surely we'd remember them if they did magically disappear because of a crack.
This isn't an ordinary crack, though. Every person who's gone to investigate it has vanished, and then everyone else forgets them. I don't understand why or how, and I know that sounds sketchy, but it's the truth. You need to stay away from it, please don't even think about going down there.
No body has disappeared. It's just a crack, safe as the one in any wall. I'll even show you how harmless it is.
See. Nothing's happening. It's perf
Do they even go here?
YES!
Sure. Next you'll tell me that they had a lot of feelings or something!
Not now, Snape.
Fifty points from… is that a badger in your icon? Are you a Hufflepuff? I should have known. Fifty points from Hufflepuff! ifyou even go to this school.
I'm a Hufflepuff! Which – actually, that means maybe I should be the one to go and find these mysterious people doesntsparkle keeps talking about. I'll be right back, and when I do, we'll have gotten to the bottom of this mystery!
If you go, you'll end up like everyone else. Please just stay. People already think that I'm a Troll.
SOMEONE STAY WITH ME!
No one is going anywhere.
Then what happened to Violet?
Who's Violet? You never mentioned them before.
Whatever is causing this got her, and all those other people! This is really scary.
Go wash your hair.
Who the hell are you talking about?
Apparently all Sally and Larry had to was to walk around pretending like they could see the angels. NO BIG. So now “Blink” just seems stupid. They could blink all they wanted to as long as they pretended like they weren’t. IT MAKES NO SENSE. In “Blink” the fact that the Angles couldn’t move if you saw them was stated as a biological fact. BUT APPARENTLY NOT. Apparently it’s a conscious decision?
THANK YOU. I feel like they shat all over the Angels in that one moment. If her eyes are closed she should be dead (or sent somewhere in time). THE END.
100% love for the counting gif and your excellent points about Amy/the kiss. And, actually, your comment about River. I do have total faith that Moff will make the "Who is River?" reveal, whatever it is, totally worth the ride; I'd say I have much more faith in Moff than RTD when it comes to paying off this sort of thing in general.
They were just here, come on!
THOSE PEOPLE DON'T EXIST
Look, if you're really concerned, I'll go looking for them. This shouldn't ta
Wait, wait. Don't go.
THIS ENTIRE THREAD TERRIFIES ME OMFG.
QUICK! Someone throw Love and Monsters at it!
<img src=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100302014824/tardis/images/3/31/Ursula_paving_slab.jpg>
QUICK! Someone get Twilight!
SO I HAVE BEEN WAITING SINCE BLINK TO POST THESE
<img src=http://i53.tinypic.com/2wc2yp2.gif>
<img src=http://i51.tinypic.com/211a3ux.jpg>
<img src=http://i56.tinypic.com/1zvvdau.jpg>
THE IMAGE OF AN ANGEL DANCES LIKE AN ANGEL
Pretty much HOLY GOD WHAT THE FUCK
Terror.
But Amy kissing the Doctor left me unhappy. I didn't want it to be like that and the way Amy was acting really felt like it would give more ammunition to the slut shamers. But it means more Rory, so I was OK with it in the end.
But you are. I wish you would calm down and realize that you're only making yourself upset. Maybe you need to step away from the computer for a while.
You guys are scaring me. How can you forget the people who were just on the board.
We haven't forgotten them, they never existed. I don't know where this is coming from all of a sudden. Are you trolling us? I don't think Mark would approve.
I know right? This is weird. I guess I should just decide not to feed the troll, but I'm kind of worried too.
Yeah, it's a really strange way to troll, if it's a troll.
I AM NOT A TROLL.
I swear that people are disappearing. That crack is bad. Do not go near it.
Crack? Is that that bright light over here? I was just about to go check that out in my search for the people you keep talking about. I'll brb.
NO!
It's fine, really! I'm a Hufflepuff, remember? We're really good finders! I swear to you, I'll be ri
It's weird though because doesntsparkle has been here all along so I don't understand why they'd just start trolling like this, if that's what they're doing.
I CERTAINLY DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING, SUNSHINE!
Oh, Donna. Poor Donna!
Is this some sort of sick joke? People are always trying to do this to me. My friends are always asking me why I don't remember when the earth was moved. WHY THE BLOODY HELL WOULD THE EARTH BE MOVED? They must have sent some good-looking blokes named Ricky and Jack to come up to me and act like they knew me for a lark. WELL IT AIN'T FUNNY!
NO, DONNA!
If you
Not me too what? I have no idea what you're even on abo
No, please, please, please stay with me!
Nobody is going anywhere, what are you talking about?
Listen to me. We need help. We need the Doctor. Something is very very wrong, people keep disappearing and then no one remembers them.
Maybe you are thinking of the bees. They disappeared
What are you talking about? Bees are plentiful.
Okay, ha ha. It's sooo funny that you're doing this, but really? Don't you think the joke is getting a little old? I mean why do we have to bring in the Doctor over your practical joke? He's busy solving, you know, real problems.
How can you think this is a joke? Honestly, I don't understand why people think doesntsparkle is trolling and it scares me. I remember these people too, WHAT IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU? D:
This is the weirdest discussion I've ever seen. What kind of troll makes up mods?
On the off-chance you're not a sockpuppet, please stop feeding the troll.
What do I have to do to prove that I'm not a troll?
We are all in serious, serious danger.
This! I'll do anything, just as long as you believe us!
This is a real problem. Don't you understand?
You posted early and now everyone has partied without me. Sadfaces forever, Mark.
Ahem, anyway.
Any episode that has River automatically goes on my rewatch pile. She's just that awesome. I love the dynamic between her and the Doctor here. It wasn't that Ten wasn't curious about her, but Eleven just seems so much intrigued by all the possibilities. She's a puzzle and he wants to solve her….OK, that sounded dirtier than intended. But I'm someone who has no problem with a River/Doctor romantic pairing, so dirty is OK with me (not that I think we'll ever see anything really dirty on DW…you know, I'm just going to stop digging deeper now)
As for the last scene, it doesn't really bother me. Yes, Amy is kissing someone other than her fiance on the night before her wedding. It's not a very nice thing to do. But I don't think we're supposed to see it as a good thing. Amy is clearly freaked out and not in the most emotionally zen place at that moment, and the Doctor is clearly freaked out, and just in general "THIS IS A REALLY BAD IDEA" is practically flashing on the screen. But I think it's a very human reaction to have, and I don't think it ruins Amy's character at all.
Hmmm. I used to be weirded out by Amy's jumping the Doctor, but now I get it. Amy's stressed, she's got cold feet, and Eleven's a foxy fellow. I mean, she clearly also has carried him with her throughout her life, since he left her when she was only a little girl. Now he's here, and he's real, and he hasn't aged a bit, and he's done more for her than she can probably imagine. (And she's doing a lot for him, too– I really don't like the "the Doctor makes people better!" argument that lots of people rely on because I think that while that's the case, people clearly help the Doctor as well!)
Also, can I just say that Martha and Rose did not waste their seasons pining away for the Doctor? They didn't. Rose spoke up to the Doctor (think "Dalek") and, in series 2, became independent and kicked ass and took names without the Doctor, even while loving him (think "Idiot's Lantern," "Tooth and Claw," and "Satan Pit"). Poor Rose is caught in this catch-22 in fandom. Either she's a pining, whiny, Doctor-dependent brat or she's entirely selfish for doing her own thing. I think Rose is brilliant, and while she loves the Doctor, we see her grow into herself. That's the sort of 'selfish' RTD refers to, I think: Rose really understands what she wants out of life by the time "Doomsday" rolls around. Even without the Dcotor, Rose joins Torchwood and defends the Earth, crossing universes to *warn* the Doctor. It's not like she spent "Turn Left" convincing Donna that she had to get back to the Doctor because Rose loved him.
And Martha? Martha's brilliant, and while she also had feelings for the Doctor, I think the true arc for Martha is her own self-discovery. Martha is so used to doing everything for other people (in "Smith and Jones," it's all for her patients and her family), that her time with the Doctor is the first time she doesn't have to worry about other people. That doesn't mean she stops (see her awesome medstudentness in "Shakespeare Code" and "Family of Blood"), but it means she grows to take care of herself. She falls for the Doctor because the Doctor is a lot like her in terms of caring so very deeply about other people to the point of destruction. Martha's amazing: she's clever and spunky ("Expelliarmus!"), she walks the world to tell a story and save the world, and she's defending the Earth even now. 🙂
Sorry. This is super rambly, but it seems like this episode draws more Amy vs. Martha vs. Rose comparisons than any other because of the end of the ep, whether it's slutshaming Amy or denouncing Rose and Martha for "pining." There's nothing wrong with being in love, and Amy's position is totally understandable. Basically: they're all awesome.
Hear, hear! Thank you for this awesome post.
I don't think anyone is criticizing Rose and Martha for pining for the Doctor, just the writers for continuing to write them into that sort of dynamic – a dynamic that is fraught with all sorts of issues, and after a while too much of the same thing is bad. The character that would've been the series four companion if Catherine Tate hadn't been free would've been written the same way, it turns out, and multiple people recoiled because it was the last thing the show needed at that point and RTD should not have been so ready to repeat himself again.
ZOMG PYTHON REFERENCE!!!
<img src="http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/Tauriel/dw_comfy_chairs.jpg">
Oh, and Mark, you should also watch this:
Meanwhile in the TARDIS – it's a short mini-episode (an extra from the DVDs), that bridges "Flesh and Stone" and the next episode. And it's simply hilarious! 😀
<img src="http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/Tauriel/TARDIS_inhabitants.gif">
This is really awesome, but maybe you should wait til you watch the next episode to watch it… It's not technically spoilery, because it's cannon, but you might prefer to see the next episode on its own merits, first. Jeez, could i vague that up anymore?
It's not remotely spoilery. It was obvious what the Doctor meant to do at the end of Flesh and Stone. 🙂
True, however… the intro to the next episode is a little surprising without seeing this vid.
It is… trust me, no one could ever be prepared for that… 😛
They should've slipped Jamie in there just for the lulz of those fans that watch it frame-by-frame. (Yes, I'm a shameless Two/Jamie shipper SO SUE ME.)
Also Jack. But especially Jamie, I agree.
I just noticed someone downvoted both Hypatia_ and Hotaru-hime (I don't know about PeterRabid since they already have a few upvotes) when all they did was say they wished some of the male companions were shown in the montage. I don't know what the reasoning is, I'm guessing maybe not being a slash fan, but can we please not downvote over something as stupid as that.
Really? I didn't notice. That's just weird.
Yeah. You were on 0 and Hotaru-Hime was on -1 so you'd both been down voted at least once. It's a really odd thing to downvote someone over.
Is it just me, or does Leela look crazily like Minka Kelly in her first shot?
I was put out that there was no Ian, no Jamie, no Stephen, no Turlough…
Well, Amy WAS interested in how many of the companions were girls and whether they were hot. So TARDIS showed her just the girls – and even pointed out Leela's leather bikini. 😉 Remember that TARDIS is kind of sentient.
Almost certainly, although if you feel you have psychosexual and trust issues it;s better to talk them through with a professional.
Low self esteem and lack of trust in your peers can make you very unhealthy, mentally, and sexual issues are a side of that. Sexual attraction and flirting are normal, and OK to have fun with.
Yes, I've started seeing a therapist due to grief and depression. I plan to bring up my anxiety around people and strangers.
I don't think that Amy's a slut (Ugh, I hate that word so much!), and I completely understand why she would snog the Doctor. The reason I like that she did this is because I think it's brilliant character development, and it's kind of like she got her fancying Eleven "out of her system", as it were. I don't like infallible characters, and to me it feels like Amy is getting to address feelings that were never dealt with before.
As for monogamy vs. fidelity debates… well, if the roles had been reversed and it was Rory doing the snogging while Amy sat at home, I know I might be mad. This isn't to say that Amy's bad, skanky, or cruel, she just made a split-second decision that may have some fallout later on. If you're engaged to someone who is monogamous, you need to be too, or find someone else who won't mind. Again, I like that Amy did this because it's awesome character growth, and I can't wait to see how it deepens our understanding of a complex and vivacious woman that I happen to like very much.
Thank you.
I just don't understand what's going on, why people think you're delusional or trolling. I remember everyone – ELSOS runs the cool spoiler blog, arctic_hare writes those really long reviews, psychicflower and Openattheclose do awesome gifspams and Openattheclose has kept the "Rose loved drugs" meme going, etc… how can people not remember any of this?
I think I'd remember who I apparently do awesome gifspams with and I don't know any openattheclose. And the 'Rose loves drugs' meme never really kicked off here. I think someone might've posted the comic before back during Gridlock but that's it.
But it's the truth! How can you not remember? You people are REALLY SCARING ME! And the "Rose loved drugs" meme is HUGE here, I – remember the Ross Jenkins fanclub? Please, tell me you remember that! All the drugs jokes! Come on…
I don't know what you're talking about. Ross Jenkins? He sounds like he belongs on the U.S.S. Enterprise or something.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers.
I think these people are just messing with me.
I think it's also meant to invoke how River died. It did end with handcuffs. We know it, the Doctor knows it…River doesn't.
Someone's prolly said a few variations of this by now but I think for Amy it was just a combination of cold feet and being high off of the fact that she just spent hours being terrified when she almost died but didn't.
Also I thought the whole thing was kind of hilarious the first time I watched it after watching like 19137633 tv shows (incl this one) where people are totally miserable crushing on each other for years and never doing anything about it, I thought it was pretty rad to just see her go for it like that. I can't take this scene as anything but awkward comedy, but then that's how I take most of the romance on this show.
Yeah, everything else in this episode is so amazing, flawless and so tense and the reveals here about River are huge!
Not to mention the puns! "Get a life! Oops sorry Bob"
Wait, who's Mark?
OMG!
This crack is going to destroy the entire internet. Someone do something!
If the Doctor doesn't show up, we should just run away from it, as fast as we can!
Who's 'The Doctor'? I really don't think a medical professional is going to help with how weird intense debate has gotten.
Oh my god ;_________________;
I don't know, I think they might need a medical professional (to help with their delusions, you know).
Late! Sorry! Already said that.
Right, so best advice I can give all of you is to turn so that you are facing *away* from the giant shining white crack and start fleeing in a calm and orderly fashion!
Well what are you waiting for? Get a move on!
Thank you, Doctor.
Oh, thank goodness you're here, Doctor! Right, I'm running now!
A crack in space and time that devours people. Turns them into the forgotten. Changes the very fabric of the universe to make them not exist.
Well, I have nothing to fix this.
Smoke em' if you got 'em and Ta! I'm off!
Um…"Doctor" you shouldn't support these trollers. They either are making these things up to get attention or are seriously delusional, making names up like Openattheclose or arctic_hare. Come on people. Maybe you should stop encouraging them and get an *actual* doctor to check them out.
11thDoctor Who?
Gee, that was helpful. I know who notto turn to in a crisis.
Koschei! Why haven't you been answering my calls? Are you alright? Do you need a biscuit?
I just wanted to say that your comment there, Koschei… It hurts my feelings. I know we've had our differences, but I had been hoping that things had changed between us. That you could stop, you know, eating people and shooting lightening out of your hands like a demented parody of a terrible Sci Fi show and travel through space and time together again. You and I would be beautiful together, you know that right?
Aww, who am I kidding? You're stuck in a Time Lock and I'm out here and feelin' fine! Who's da – Oh right, I said I wouldn't say that anymore. In any case, HA! I've got all the Jammy Dodgers I can eat and you're stuck in a Time Lock! Take that!
Answer your calls? Ha! I think not, Theta. And this time lock isn't so bad. Your mother says hello, and that she doesn't know why she ever bothered looming you, since the alternative is so much fun. Can you believe she had never tried it before? She doesn't even mind being stuck in the Time Lock, not if it means she's free of dealing with the embarassment of being your mohter.
*throws all the Jammy Dodgers and Jelly Babies into that big crack down there*
I voted for you, Mr. Saxon!
I noticed your comments upthread. You seem very clever. For a human.
/sob
What's the internet?
Ugh.
Not funny.
I hate to be this person but you know it's pretty suspicious that an anon with no account who I don't remember seeing around here before today suddenly joins in to agree with and defend doesntsparkle. Especially when no one else can remember what you're talking about.
I don't want to accuse or anything but I'm just going to say that you don't have to go to all this effort doesntsparkle. It's really not helping against the people accusing you of being a troll.
Sorry, but you don't seem to remember anyone. At this point, I'd be surprised if you remembered Mark.
I really don't appreciate to troll accusation. There is a serious problem and Emmeline is the only person who believes me.
I don't mean to sound mean or anything like that but you and 'Emmeline' are the only people who are mentioning these mysterious users. No one else remembers them so you have to understand that it comes across as a bit dodgy.
There used to like a ton of us. How could a thread get so long if there were just a handful of people?
It's not that long. Besides it's mainly you, 'Emmeline' and everyone trying to explain that those people you keep talking about aren't on this site.
But they really are real! Tell me what we have to do to get you to listen!
Look, it doesn't matter what we say. They're not going to listen to us.
Yeah. *sigh* I just don't know what to do anymore.
This is seriously breaking my heart. I thought this was the best internet community out there and these people are just soul less? How could you all forget those awesome commenters?
What do I have to do?
Just stay here, we'll figure this out somehow. I don't think it's their fault. It's all because of that damn crack!
scroll up, psycicflower, it will change your life.
I know it doesn't look right, but you have to understand that what's going on with all of you doesn't look right either. It doesn't make any sense to me why you all would suddenly forget people like that! It's too weird.
Obvious sockpuppet is obvious. Seriously, troll harder.
I don't know what it is about this fandom that brings out t
I'm not, I swear. I'm completely serious, and I'm not a sockpuppet. Something is terribly wrong here.
No, do not. This thread is spoilery, I am tossing it into the crack up there.
Yeah, even though he didn't actually mention anything, it's safer this way. 🙂
It's OK, it never existed now.
The crack ate it.
The crack ate what? What are you talking about?
If I remembered that any of you people existed I'd be in love with you right now.
God, early review+work=Hypatia being late to the party again. Oh well.
Angel Bob: “We have no need of comfy chairs.”
The Doctor: “I made him say ‘comfy chairs’.” They’re all in mortal peril, and the Doctor’s amusing himself by making Weeping Angels reference Monty Python. I actually had to explain why that was funny to a friend, because she had somehow reached the age of 24 without ever seeing the Spanish Inquisition sketch. That was quickly remedied.
Anyway. On to the two things I want to talk about: River Song and that last scene with Amy (which has already been hashed over, but I have thoughts. Respect the thoughts.) First, River Song. This episode is full of little almost-references to River and the Doctor’s relationship, which is utterly maddening because we don’t know what the hell their relationship is. Only River Song knows. On the other hand, we know something she doesn’t: we know how and when she dies. Which makes the part when River Song offers to jump into the crack, to sacrifice herself instead of the Doctor, terribly sad, because we know and the Doctor know that, before much longer, she’ll be doing just that. And the line “You. Me. Handcuffs. Must it always end this way?” is simultaneously funny and heartbreaking because yes, it will end that way. And of course, who the HELL is River Song? Who did she kill? This woman is the very definition of a mystery wrapped in an enigma. In fact, hereinafter we should just refer to things of utter mystery as “River Songs”.
And the “Amy attempts to seduce the Doctor” scene. It bothers me, I admit it. Not because Amy is confident in her sexuality, that part I am very fond of. It bothers me because a) the Doctor clearly isn’t into it at all, and makes that fairly plain and b) she’s engaged. I agree with earlier posts that it has something to do with the common human instinct of “I almost died, I now want to have sex.” This is reasonable. However, I think it has more to do with her uncertainty about what she wants. She’s only 21, she’s meant to be getting married in the morning, but she clearly isn’t so sure that that’s what she wants in life. She wasn’t sure before, and then her (rather pretty) imaginary friend from childhood turned up again and whisked her off in his time machine. Now she’s really uncertain as to what she wants. Lastly, I think that that scene isn’t really meant to be flat-out funny. It’s pretty uncomfortable to watch, IMO (although “I’m 907 years old! Do you know what that means?” “It’s been awhile?” makes me laugh, I admit it). I think that scene is there to demonstrate Amy’s uncertainty about her life in general and her marriage in particular. I have another reason, but I think I should hold off on that until we’ve gotten farther along. Not really spoilery, but it delves more into Amy’s character, and I think Mark should see more of her before I go psychoanalyzing her.
How badass was Father Octavian? Personally I like to imagine that the angel that got him sent him back in time rather than snapped his neck (although you hear a pretty unpleasant sound that may discount that, though I don't know what sending someone back in time while eating their life potential would sound like) and he's hanging out way back in time trying to rustle up some mischief to get the Doctor to come investigate or hanging with Captain Jack in WWII.
Sadly, that seemed to be a neck-snap sound. Octavian was in a death grip and then there was a crunchy noise. Not a nice trip back to somewhere like Hull in the early 20th Century for him. There was also a real element of Octavian more or less begging the Doctor to get on with it, so that he'd be able to die before the horror of his situation overwhelmed him. I suppose in a situation like that you just need to be sure that you've got enough courage to get through the next few minutes… ARGH!
By the way, anybody else notice Amy complaining that she'd had to climb out with her eyes closed and the Doctor telling her that in fact she hadn't needed to do that at all. Impression given that he'd not only forgotten to mention it but not twigged as to why she was doing that long climb in self-imposed darkness! Doctor, you can be such a cloud-cuckoolander at times!
He did say that he'd been telling her that the whole way out! Sounded to me like Amy just didn't fancy taking the chance, and can't say I blame her!