In the eleventh episode of the second series of Doctor Who, the Doctor and Rose appear just in time for the opening ceremonies of the 2012 Olympics in London. They unfortunately land in a neighborhood that’s being affected by a strange girl with an unusual power. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to watch Doctor Who.
Look, I don’t know what happened here. At heart, there are a lot of great ideas at work in “Fear Her.” Creepy kids. The idea that abuse can haunt a person long after it stops. Loneliness. The difficulties of being a single parent. THESE ARE ALL GOOD THEMES OR IDEAS, RIGHT?
Then how the fuck did this episode turn out so awful? Look, I’ve disliked episodes before and this hasn’t been a constant stream of perfection in television form, but jesus christ, this was a hard episode to sit through, let alone enjoy. I had a lot of hope at the beginning, but this episode does so many things that either had me steaming in silent rage or scratching my head that I almost wanted to call it quits and just move on to the two-part finale.
I have not had the chance to do this, so, if you’ll allow me, I’m going to jump into two sets of lists. PARTY.
THE GOOD
It’s not really fair of me to simply trash all of Matthew Graham’s episode and there were parts of it that I did like. As I said, this episode had the potential to be both terrifying and emotionally powerful, so there are things worth pointing out.
- I love that in the end, Rose is left to solve everything, without the Doctor. She’s been gradually taking more and more control of her adventures with the Doctor and it’s like watching her learn before our eyes. I acknowledge that she’s routinely selfish about things, but she acts entirely selflessly in “Fear Her.”
- Abisola Agbaje, who played Chloe Webber, was fantastic. That girl can ACT.
- Kel, the wonderful council worker, is MY FAVORITE SIDE CHARACTER EVER. Oh man, he was so SERIOUS about his paving job. A+++++++
- The concept of an Isolus is BRILLIANT. A being that travels with billions of members of its family and feeds on love crashing to earth and attaching itself to the loneliest human it can find? This should have had me weeping for days instead of shaking my fist with anger.
- Making the entire crowd disappear at the Olympic stadium? AWESOME.
- “Fingers on lips!”
- “I was a dad once.” WHAT!!!!!
- “You just took a council axe from a council van, and now you’re tearing up a council road! I’m reporting you to the council!” LOVE YOU FOREVER KEL.
THE ABSOLUTELY, MIND-BOGGLING AWFUL
- “It only seems like yesterday, a few Greek blokes were tossing a discus about, wrestling each other in the sand and the crowed stood around…now, wait a minute, that was Club Med!” NO, I’M SORRY, THE DOCTOR DOES NOT TRAVEL THROUGH TIME AND SPACE JUST TO GET EXCITED ABOUT CLUB FUCKING MED. JUST NO. NO.
- Why don’t people in this neighborhood seem more upset about the fact that KIDS ARE LITERALLY DISAPPEARING IN OPEN SPACES WITH NO ONE ELSE AROUND. If anything, everyone just seemed a bit peeved. As if it was irritating their kids were being kidnapping.
- Children’s drawings are nearly impossible to pull of as a scary device because they’ve been done like 40 billion times. SO NO. Am I supposed to be frightened by a drawing of a sad kid done with crayons? NO. NOT GOOD.
- An actual living scribble. Probably the most foolish thing I’ve seen someone commit to existing in a television show. If it can be simply erased, WOULDN’T ROSE TOUCHING IT HAVE SMUDGED IT?
- Ok, so the idea of the Isolus is fantastic. Here’s what I don’t understand at all. The Isolus feeds off the love of its family. HOW ON EARTH DOES TAKING A BUNCH OF STRANGERS WHO ARE CLEARLY UNHAPPY SOLVE THAT? You are sticking them in an environment devoid of love. So what was the Isolus feeding on? Imagined love? Or was it actually like some giant dance party inside the Isolus imagination pen?
- Let’s get to my big complaint: Was it just me or did this episode seem to portray abused children as really needy and annoying? As someone who was abused, I was constantly offended by the way the relationship between Chloe and her mom was portrayed and by the subtext to all of this. First of all, the mom acted like she was irritated that her daughter had been abused. LIKE IT WAS HER FAULT OR SOMETHING. Even worse, this episode aims to address the loneliness that comes with being an abused child and instead makes Chloe appear like a selfish, love-stealing brat. Yes, it’s the Isolus inside her, but could you have separated the two instead of trying to make them part of the same person? Jesus christ NO. JUST NO.
- The Olympic Torch resolution makes me want to curl up in a ball and cry forever on the sheer basis of its inanity. Is the ship the Isolus came in a separate entity? No? HOW DID IT KNOW TO FOLLOW THE TORCH AND LAND PERFECTLY IN IT. Look, this whole show is about suspension of belief, but that is just TOO far out there for me.
- I don’t even understand why Chloe drew her father. If it was meant to be a commentary on Stockholm Syndrome, it instead came out like HEY IF YOU WERE ABUSED, THINKING ABOUT YOUR ABUSER IS VERY BAD AND DON’T DO IT OR ELSE IT WILL CREEP YOU FROM THE TOP OF THE STAIRS.
- The Doctor. Carrying the Olympic Torch. This show is like 74% cheese, but seriously too much. I can’t. I just can’t.
This whole episode? All I kept yelling internally was I HATE THIS JESUS TAKE THE WHEEL
UGH. Cannot wait to move on to the super awesome two-part finale!!!
Don't worry, it get's better.
Hold on!!
What, it's not exactly a spoiler, just saying it get's better after these last 2 crap episodes.
No, sorry, I meant for Mark to keep on watching this even if these past two episodes were terrible.
I fail at English tonight, sorry.
This is actually my least favourite episode of the entire series, so yeah. It really gets better.
Yup, another TOTAL STINKER. But I think that's the end of the batch. HOLD ON TIGHT BB YOU ARE NOT PREPARED.
All I want is for David Tennant to actually light the torch in his 10 costume at the 2012 Games. Other than that this episode was not my fave, but I didn't mind it.
On another note, I think today or sometime around now was when you were originally supposed to finish reading Harry Potter had you followed your 1 post a weekday schedule originally 🙂
If that happens I might forgive that ending.
I want that too. It might make this episode worth it.
See, I don't even need Tennant to light the actual torch in his costume. I'd be happy if he was just one of the torch runners.
If he *did* light the torch, though, that would be rad.
IAWTC
That's all I have to say about that.
WANT.
YES. That would be so amazing. This is pretty much the only reason I'll be watching the opening ceremony next year.
But he'd better be careful, or he might set fire to the torch wood.
*slinks away*
I do think this is one of the weakest episodes of the series. I don't disklike it as much as Love and Monsters (which we all discussed ad nauseum yesterday) but I usually just skip this one. Actually, I almost did during my rewatch, but instead I left it play in the background while I made dinner. Yeah, it's that kind of episode that you just sort of ignore. Frankly, it's boring. Attack of the killer scribble? Blahhhh.
And I the "oh look it goes right into the torch!" and the doctor carrying the torch… yeah, entirely too cheeseball. And I still don't get what the father was doing there. Did she draw, literally DRAW him out of hell? What? That doesn't even make sense in the context of the show, especially with the Satan pit going with the idea that the devil was an idea…and… well nevermind. But STILL, let's forget the context of the show… how does that make sense anyway?
This episode is sort of the opposite of the last episode. Well, not opposite. Just… vice versa? I guess? Anyway, I don't hate this episode, I just don't mind it. But I totally wouldn't bother defending this episode because I can absolutely understand people not liking it.
Yeah, this one was written in a hurry to replace another script (if I remember correctly) and it shows. Definitely not my favorite.
The bit with the edible ball bearings is good, though. 🙂
Yeah there was supposed to be an episode written by Stephen Fry but it was too expensive so they pushed it to next series and wrote this to take its place. Then when the next series came around, either it was too similar to another episode or he wasn't available to do rewrites so it was dropped completely.
*takes a moment to mourn this lost episode* Stephen Fry and Doctor Who? It could have been so amazing.
I believe the problem was actually that he wrote it for S2 and things… changed. Y'know, important spoilery things of which we may not speak yet.. So it turned out that it would need extensive rewrites to fit into the next season, but he already had heavy time commitments on other projects and just couldn't do the rewrites.
Aaah yes that would require a lot of changes.
Also, the scripts take a lot of rewriting anyway. So it would probably have been at an early draft when they worked out it was too expensive (these things are pretty obvious) and couldn't be made cheaper.
At that point, the whole focus would have changed to getting Fear Here ready, so it's likely that a lot of basic re-drafting of the Fry script would have been needed. Neil Gaiman had a script in process for series five which has been moved to series six, on cost grounds again, and he had to do a tonne of rewrites before it was ready to film.
The scurrilous rumour is that Fry's script just wasn't very good and they cooked up a story to cover that.
I hope that isn't true and in my fantasy version of how things should have panned out (which also includes Edgar Wright directing Rose and Aliens of London/World War Three) it would have worked much better to have a story set in the 1920s following on from Love and Monsters.
Wait Neil Gaiman's script is actually happening? Oh man. I'm soooo excited for series six!
Not just happening but already filmed and (I think) edited. Looks like it'll be episode three (or maybe four, there's some shuffling going on).
Edit: if you haven't read this, you should:
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2007/05/nature-of-i…
Really quite spoilery for The War Games, but it was originally written in 2003, so there are no spoilers for the new series.
Oh and the serial that may have been part of the inspiration for Neverwhere was The Web of Fear not The Web of Death as it says there. Easy mistake to make though, what with the old series' Terror/Horror of xxxx or xxxx of Death/Doom/Fear template.
There's even the famous Seeds of Death 1969 story and Seeds of Doom 1976 story confusion. Although back then they didn't imagine that anyone would want to or be able to watch them after they'd been broadcast and the repeat agreement had expired.
I think, given how much RTD has rewritten other scripts, that Stephen Fry's would have gone ahead even if it wasn't very good (which seems unlikely).
'The scurrilous rumour is that Fry's script just wasn't very good and they cooked up a story to cover that. '
*fervent Stephen Fry fan refuses to believe it*
HOW could it be bad? Stephen Fry! Doctor Who!
My guess is that it's entirely made up. Some fans have a pathological desire not to take anything said by the production team at face value.
The most I can believe is that it just wasn't appropriate for the show's tone or something, like the legendary Paul Abbott script. Given the fact that Fry is a fanboy, though I find even that possibility unlikely.
I'm still in mourning
I am trying so hard to hold in my laughter thanks to that GIF that I think I'm going to have an aneurysm. Your Twitter boast was backed up, you did not disappoint!
Heeeeeeeeeeee I'm dying. I can't stop watching it!
I just love his open-mouthed enthusiasm. Like "OH SURE NP I'LL GET THE WHEEL YOU'RE WELCOME YAYYYYYY"
IKR? I keep scrolling back up to look again and giggling! XD
Mmhmm, yes, uh-huh. Though I wasn't such a fan of Abisola's acting, I understand that it's really a subjective thing. Which of course undermines the Academy Awards and the like, but whatever.
When I first watched it a few years ago, every time this episode referenced abuse, explicitly or implicitly, I screamed inside. So fucked up. Might've fucked me up a bit too, I dunno.
Yeah, man, it IS kind of infuriating. I don't know what message they were trying to send.
Best. Gif. Ever. That is amazing.
I dislike this episode as well and it couldn't really hold my attention on rewatch today (Woo for Irish politics /sarcasm) so I don't really have a lot to say.
The cheese factor was pretty extreme in this episode between 'Feel the love' and the Doctor with the Olympic flame. The Isolus are an interesting concept and very pretty to see but, yeah, they don't quite work out in this episode. The main lesson is to always listen to the old lady. She knows what's going on. I think the conversation between the Doctor and Rose about children is interesting, given how different their views are. I love that they mention that the Doctor had kids.
I'm not going to touch the abuse stuff because I don't feel I have the right to talk about it having been lucky enough never to have experienced it but yes to everything you said. The approach to it in this episode is highly problematic.
‘A storm’s approaching.’ It’s finale time so oblig: YOU ARE NOT PREPARED.
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Miguel gif FTW, I'm now slightly hypnotised by it. So much love for that movie.
Miguel gif makes my day. 😀
Hahah. I figured you'd dislike this one. They did a bang-up job at removing any sympathy I'd feel for Chloe by making her an obnoxious little shit (via proxy, of course, but still). I'm looking forward to seeing your reaction to the 2-parter.
I did like the awkward TARDIS parking job the Doctor did at the very beginning. A nice little gag that wasn't overstated or crammed down your throat.
A story about this episode. Originally, episode 11 was supposed to be a different one written by Stephen Fry, but when they realized it would be too expensive, they put this one in for episode 11 instead. Then Stephen Fry got too busy to rewrite it to fit into series 3, so it never got made.
It's kind of too bad that this episode isn't that great, because Matthew Graham was the writer and co-creator of Life on Mars, and I love that show.
WHAT. Stephen Fry was going to write an episode???
Did write an episode, called The 1920s, at least as a working title.
Probably an early draft, so would have needed a lot of work when they returned to it and he didn't have time.
Fry is a huge Doctor Who fan.
But LoM also offended the hell out of me any time it tried to go deeper than a puddle, so it makes sense.
There was also that uncomfortable moment when you felt they were moving from critiquing 1970s attitudes to celebrating them.
When they did a documentary about it and Matthew Graham said that what he was really trying to do was work out a way he could make The Sweeney that pretty much summed it up for me. I'd liked it more if they'd been trying to emulate The Singing Detective I think.
I do like it (and Ashes to Ashes) but its shortcomings are too easily glossed over for my liking.
I actually enjoy this episode a lot. I know that the plot isn’t exactly revolutionary, but it’s enjoyable enough. Also, OLYMPICS. I LOVE THE OLYMPICS. Whenever they’re on, I just like obsessively watch them. It’s a bit sad. So I’ve gotta say, I love that this episode was set during the 2012 London Olympics. AND it features the Doctor and Rose being adorable. AND it also features Rose being her awesome and amazing kickass self. AND the Doctor does a cheesy “carrying the Olympic torch” run. So, sorry to say Mark. But I really like this episode. LOL.
I think the idea of a creature that can snatch things out of reality and put them into a kind of alternate imaginary universe as well as to create real things out of an imaginary world is pretty neat. The whole idea of fuelling the isolus pod with ~the power of love is pretty ridiculous though (unless of course you are referring to the Huey Lewis and the News song or the Celine Dion song. Those are acceptable sources of power because they’re awesome songs)..
Now let’s get the character party started. Rose is operating at Full Rose Awesome Capacity in this episode. Less than five minutes in and she’s showing that she’s observant. She notices that there are a lot of missing children posters around and knows that something is off. She notices creepy Chloe in the window, even though that apparently completely escaped the Doctor’s notice.
Rose: You said it was in the street.
Doctor: Probably.
Rose: The girl!
Doctor: Of course! What girl?
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/GuyCrazy1017/Doctor%20Who%20screencaps/2x11rosesavingtheday.jpg">
And then when the Doctor disappears, it’s up to Rose to put everything she knows together and to save the day. And save the day, she does! Using a pick axe, digging up the isolus pod, figuring out that the isolus needs love as well as heat! Getting the doctor a cake with edible ball bearings! Haha. This episode just shows all over the place why Rose is such a great Companion for the Doctor. She’s observant, clever, and knows how to help the Doctor.
This episode also just shows exactly how much Rose has grown throughout the series. When Rose was faced with being without the Doctor in The Christmas Invasion, she panicked. She wanted to hide in the Tardis. And then when she was forced to face the Sycorax, she tried to use what she learned traveling with the Doctor to confront them, but she was so unsure of herself. Then in “Tooth and Claw”, we see her start to become more confident in herself as she rallies those chained in the basement with her to try to pull and break free. In the Cybermen episodes, we saw Rose continue to assert herself as an independent person, wanting to find her dad and going into the factory after Jackie. Rose continues to grow in The Idiot’s Lantern as she figures out that there is something weird going on with the TVs and then investigates Magpie. Then in The Satan Pit, Rose continues to show how much she’s grown. She’s separated from the Doctor, but she is so much more confident in herself than she was at Christmas. She is able to lead and rally the space station crew and ultimately is able to kill the Beast. Now in this episode we see the culmination of all of that. She’s able to completely step up to the plate when the Doctor disappears. Rose has really and truly become a hero in her own right.
The Doctor has a lot of really amusing moments in this episode., even if they’re not exactly character shifting or defining moments.
Tommy’s Dad [upon seeing the Doctor snooping around where his child went missing]: What’s your game?
Doctor: Me? Umm… Snakes and Ladders. Quite good at squash, reasonable. I’m being facetious, aren’t I? There’s no call for it.
LOL. Why is this so funny to me?
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Doctor: Look at the hairs on the back of my manly, hairy hand.
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The Doctor and Rose have a ton of great moments together too. Once again, the episode is being set up by the Doctor wanting to have fun with Rose and take her somewhere cool. They’re going to go see the London Olympics in 2012! I seriously love how the sheer joy of life in the Tardis just radiates off of them.
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My favorite Doctor/Rose moment from this episode would actually have to be that little moment where the Doctor is in Chloe’s house and he just picks of a jar of jam, sticks in fingers in it and licks it off his fingers, and Rose just gives him a LOOK with a little shake of her head to let him know that he’s being rude, so he puts the jar down. Oh Ten, being rude again.
But throughout the episode Rose and Doctor are just awesome and having a lot of fun while saving the day, pretending to be cops. “Keep ‘em peeled, Louis!” and “Fingers on lips!” never fail to get a smile from me.
Doctor: Are you deducting?
Rose: I think I am.
Doctor: Copper’s hunch?
Rose: Permission to follow it up, sarge?
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Rose: [Kneeling down to stroke it] Aren't you a beautiful boy!
The Doctor: [has his back to Rose and thinks that Rose is talking to him] Thanks. I've been experimenting with back-combing… oh.
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Adorable post-moderate danger hug!
In the midst of all this dorkiness, they do manage to have a couple of more serious moments.
Rose: Easy for you to say, you don’t have kids.
Doctor: I was a dad, once.
Rose: What did you say?
… And then the Doctor totally just blows past it like it’s no big and doesn’t talk about it anymore. Lol. Oh Doctor. You fail at opening up and communicating.
Doctor: There’s a lot of things you need to get across this universe: warp drive, worm hole refractors. You know the thing you need most of all? You need a hand to hold.
[Rose extends her hand to gesture at a monitor on the Tardis, the Doctor thinks she’s offering her a hand to hold, so he takes it]
Even though Rose isn’t intending to indicate that she’ll be the Doctor’s hand to hold, I think it’s telling that the Doctor assumes that’s what she’s getting at and grins. He definitely sees Rose as his “hand to hold”.
And of course the end has the Doctor and Rose reuniting with an epic hug and wandering off to go see the Games.
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Rose: You know what? They keep on trying to split us up, but they never ever will.
The Doctor: Never say “never ever”.
Rose: Nah, we’ll always be ok, you and me. Don’t you reckon, Doctor?
The Doctor: There's something in the air, there's something coming.
Rose: What?
The Doctor: A storm's approaching.
NOOOOOO. I hate you, show. Ending with such an ominous conversation. >:|
This is a ridiculously FANTASTIC! comment.
I love your love of the Doctor and Rose's love <3
Well stated, me too.
You just showed exactly what is great about this episode: Rose and the Doctor. Frankly the plot is wholly secondary.
Ah, the finger-licking scene. On nom nom nom, Ten.
Interesting reversal from The Idiot's Lantern: Here it's The Doctor who gets taken away by the alien threat, leaving Rose to save the him and save the day.
Oh good! I thought I might have been the only one who actually really enjoys this episode… the plot is a bit weak but I definitely think there's been a lot worse. The Doctor/Rose moments are what makes it wonderful though. I was surprised that Mark liked Love & Monsters (which I do not) and then hated this, actually.
Rose: You know what? They keep on trying to split us up, but they never ever will.
The Doctor: Never say “never ever”.
Rose: Nah, we’ll always be ok, you and me. Don’t you reckon, Doctor?
The Doctor: There's something in the air, there's something coming.
Rose: What?
The Doctor: A storm's approaching.
This conversation made me put my panic face on. Oh dear.
You're not alone in your obsessive watching of the Olympics. I'm so happy they're in London purely because it's in the same time zone so I won't be missing events or ceremonies in the middle of the night. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of coverage the BBC'll have along with my local channels.
I'm incredibly bitter that as my life plans currently stand, even though I'm living in London right now, I'll be back home in LA when the 2012 games are going on. D:
I am considering coming back for the games and crashing at my friend's place for a couple of weeks so that I can be here for the games, even though the cost of airfare is ridiculous.
This is why I don't bother writing full-on reviews. Someone else always does it for me. And does it better.
Also, I liked the whole jam jar/Rose stink eye moment too. But I can't help but imagine if Steven Moffat wrote that, people would just interpret it as Rose being a sexist, fun hating, wet blanket, nagging wife type figure and it's totally NOT COOL, when in fact she's just being the Doctor's sense of reason.
Would this be a good place to mention that I like the basic London 2012 bid logo they used in the episode a lot more than the official 2012 logo? It burns my retinas.
I think any fondness I have for this episode is because I share their excitement for the Olympics. Only a year and a half away!
omg. The official 2012 logo is SO FUGLY. Ugh. And it's all over my debit card because I bank with Lloyds which is one of the ~official sponsers. WHY SO UGLY, LONDON OLYMPIC COMMITTEE?
That pic! The best thing is, you just know Ten could actually pull off that line and make it hilarious 😀
This is the one with the Doctor carrying the Olympic torch! Oh good, I'm glad I didn't ask about that in your review of "The Idiot's Lantern" because I was confused. Yeah, that ending is just what. Just what.
I pretty much rolled my eyes through this one. I thought it had some really good ideas, some really powerful ones and just didn't follow through. Could have been so much better, guys, really.
I did like the idea of the fear of her abuser haunting her still, though. That was good.
Is it my imagination, or are you getting earlier and earlier with your reveiws? I used to have to wait till 10pm GMT, but it's 5;25pm gmt at the moment. No complaints, it makes me happy.
(If Tennant isn't at the olympics I swear to God I'll cry)
I did like the Newsreaders response. Very British "A sstadium of people vanished! That's awful! Um…"
I love when they go to the box for their in stadium people and the commentator says: 'Not you too Bob.'
So British….
I saw this episode a few years ago when I was first getting into the show and then the other day to refresh my memory of it. Um…it was…marginally better than I remembered? Which isn't saying much (for some reason I thought Rose was at the Olympc stadium too, guess not). The episode might be redeemed ever so slightly if David Tennant shows up at the Olympics next year.
I ended up getting distracted by David Tennant's neck. Look, normally DT doesn't do anything for me but the shirt he was wearing this episode was…distracting.
"“I was a dad once.” WHAT!!!!!"
I already knew about that and I kind of hate that that's just mentioned briefly and then dropped without further comment after Rose's "WTF?!" reaction.
ROFL that GIF is made of win!
"“I was a dad once.” WHAT!!!!!"
I already knew about that and I kind of hate that that's just mentioned briefly and then dropped without further comment after Rose's "WTF?!" reaction.
I think that's meant to show just how very emotionally fucked up the Doctor is. Like he wants her to know these things about him but can't bring himself to really talk about it, so he just throws random stuff out and hopes that she'll get the whole picture by osmosis or something.
Oh and as far as this goes, "I acknowledge that she’s routinely selfish about things, but she acts entirely selflessly in “Fear Her.”"
I think that Rose's tendency towards selfishness gets taken out of context. I think that she is always incredibly selfless when it comes to strangers. It's only when it comes to her family that Rose lets her selfishness get in the way which is something that I can totally identify with. As a kid I was always an angel for my teachers (who are relative strangers), but at home I was a complete brat for my mom. With your family, you just tend to take them for granted and that can bring out less appealing attributes in you. So that's why I think that Rose can be a bit selfish when it comes to her mum and not really think about Jackie being left behind when Rose is off having so much fun traveling with the Doctor.
Also, I do think that Rose's selfishness tends to really be more about her taking control of her life and doing what she wants (without regards to anyone else). It's not the best way to act, but it's not entirely reprehensible either. She wants to travel with the Doctor. Why shouldn't she? I think that she SHOULD be able to do what she wants to do with her life. I just think that her focus on that has led her to be insensitive to the feelings of people like Jackie and Mickey.
Seriously. I do not understand this concept that Rose is so obviously a selfish person. Yes, she is selfish sometimes regarding her family. As they are with her. Jackie wants her little girl to stay home and be safe. I understand that. But you can't make your kid live the life you want just to make you happy or not worried about them, understandable though that desire may be.
It's weird, in some ways following these with Mark is a bit like re-living 2006 and reading stuff online and thinking WHAT? I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Each to their own, of course, and there really are a plethora of views out there, but I'm honestly baffled by them a lot of the time.
In some ways, this is more intense since there's one episode a day, but on the other hand a lot of wank can build up over a week of waiting, so at least we're moving on pretty quickly from the contentious moments.
Yes. I think I am having flashbacks. It's new era Doctor Who fandom's greatest hits condensed down into a few weeks.
Rose is no more selfish than the average human, and even the Doctor has purely selfish impulses. In a way, travelling with the Companions is selfish, because none of them can stay forever, and they get to pick up the pieces after it's over. This doesn't lessen my love for the good Doc, but I've wondered about his own selfish impulses for a while now.
Yeah. I agree. Everyone has selfish impulses at times. Rose tends to get ragged on for hers a lot, probably because her selfish impulses negatively affect characters that we love like Mickey and Jackie, but Rose is by no means a bad person.
I think Ten(nant) really brings that aspect of the Doctor to the front sometimes. Even though it makes me a little rage-y at the character, I love being reminded that the Doctor isn't perfect. He's only human (even though he isn't).
Anyone who runs off to travel in time and space and do very dangerous things because it's exciting and fun, and leaves people behind who are worrying about them (or would be if they knew where they were) in the process is being that same brand of selfish. I've always felt that Rose's story is a coming-of-age story, where she has to learn what we all eventually have to learn when we leave home. The people we love are effected by our decision to leave, they may not be there when you get back, and they have their own lives and needs that aren't *more* important than yours, but they aren't any *less* important either. When you choose to go for your heart's desire, that has consequences. It doesn't make your desire any less worth attaining, or your choice bad or wrong, because the world isn't divided into Purely Good and Purely Evil actions. But the fact that there was a 19-year-old young woman on my TV that was grabbing life by the horns and not letting anyone guilt her into giving up her dream was important to me. Too many young women are led to believe that everyone and everything else in the universe is more important than what *they* want, and that wanting something for yourself is selfish and wrong. I liked seeing a girl who said, "You know what? No. I know what I want, and who I want it with, and I'm going for it."
[Okay I am new to Intensedebate but uh what is going on with this comment? Did it post? Did it not? Where is the second paragraph I wrote? It was pretty awesome because I avoided spoilers yet rhapsodized about how Doctor Who companions are very frequently examples of women choosing to do something daring and exciting, even though most of them do have friends and family at home, wondering where they are, even if we never actually see them on-camera and about how I love that, and all of them, including Rose, inspire me as a woman.]
Yes. This is always m,y feeling on the Rose=Selfish thing. It's not a complaint made often about Male Companions.
Going after your dream/ambition takes selfishness. There is nothing wrong with that. Will people be hurt by the fact you do it? Perhaps, but you can't always live your life for how others feel and sometimes you need to be selfish and do what's right for you. And in series 1 it seemed like Jackie wanted to do anything other than let her daughter live her own life which is actually equally selfish.
Selfish gets things done. You should obviously try to minimise your impact on others, and give back to others, but you can't live your life for others.
V. good point about male companions. I know there haven't been very many in the new series yet, and the ones we have had seem much less encumbered with family and friends than the women, but I do think that a man in Rose's situation wouldn't be accused of selfishness for doing the same things she does.
To be fair there aren't that many male companions to compare with. The last two in the old series were properly selfish, though.
As was Adam in the new one.
Excellent point. The Doctor, who is male, does the same thing to a certain extent, but the fandom doesn't seem to mind. Rose does it and they scream bloody murder. Is it because we expect certain behaviors from females by virtue of unintended sexism?
I've seen people who hate that about Rose and the Doctor this series and people who hate 10 in general.
I was also baffled by this, but there is some equal opportunity bashing out there.
I don't know about the rest of the fandom, but I mind. I think Ten in particular is much more selfish than Rose is, even at her most selfish, but I can't say why yet.
I definitely agree with this comment. I was actually 19 when I first watched Doctor Who, and Rose's story really spoke to me. I was in college and I had no idea wtf I wanted to do with my life, so I just really loved seeing a character who was my age who just knew exactly what she wanted from life.
While we can assume that previous companions DO have friends and family that they leave behind, I love that RTD actually brought that to the forefront. Rose's story is definitely a coming of age one (as Rose says "everyone leaves home in the end" and that is what her journey in these two series have been about). Not only in the way that you talked about, which is very important. But it's also about Rose growing in confidence and really becoming a capable woman who is able to do these amazing things. Gah. I just love her story so much.
I've basically been hiding from the comments here for the last like, two weeks, because ughhh wank, but I unflounced long enough to read this one and +1xinfinity. This is a good comment and you should feel good.
All the upvotes, samarkand!
Honestly? I think Ten is SO MUCH WORSE than Rose ever shows herself to be even in her worst moments, but I can't discuss why because SPOILERS.
I can't really disagree with your reaction, although I'm sort of fond of this one for the reasons you've said. Also I do like the Doctor/Rose interaction here (especially the moment when he tastes the jam).
Sort of as an explanation, they'd run out of money at this point and had to cancel a script (by Stephen Fry) and bring this one out of the reserve commissions, with not much time to finish it and no money to spend (hence the dad monster is a red light).
I quite like the scribble but IT MAKES NO SENSE, even for this show, in fact it's a ball of ANTI-SENSE.
A couple of things that can be explained, though. Firstly, the Isolus isn't made happy by trapping the people, but it thinks the solution is to trap more people, until it is happy (cue clumsy metaphor of colour pencils as drugs). Secondly, the Isolus ship has a basic heat-seeking mechanism, which is why is kept landing in the tarmac and is why it heads for the torch. The idea that the Olympics is about love and it needs heat and love is BEYOND CHEESEY, though.
There are a couple of major failings, though. You need a much surer touch than Matthew Graham shows here if you're going to do big issues in a family action-adventure show. Usually, Doctor Who shies away from that sort of thing, erring on the side of showing a world as it should be, rather than as it is (on race and sexuality in particular). I read it as much more sympathetic than you did, but I don't have the prism of your experiences (and I doubt Matthew Graham does either). Obviously the intention wasn't to offend or distress anyone, but you need skill and judgement to make your intentions work – and I can see how they failed on this. And as someone said online at the time, it's always bad news when singing a song solves the problem.
The other, lighter, thing is that it's a bad idea to make a non-actor (Huw Edwards, a UK news reader, playing himself, doing the commentary) carry your climatic scene. Possibly, although it's not very likely, they could of made the cheese bearable without Huw doing his best to react, but in combination it's just naff.
You do get edible ball bearings at the end, though.
Back in the The Girl in the Fireplace days, the suggestion was that it was massively divisive, widely hated and got the lowest ratings of any episodes. Actually, although it proves nothing either way, the lowest rated episodes were The Impossible Planet and The Satan Pit (they went out on two very hot June weekends). And, within the parts of fandom that vote in polls, at least, I'd say that this episode was the most hated (or at least the most disappointing) so far and Love and Monsters the most divisive, with strong opinions on both sides. The Girl in the Fireplace seems more generally loved, with a significant minority of passionate naysayers.
All I can say about the finale is YOU ARE NOT PREPARED.
Wow, that made me break out the caps lock. Back to see if I have anything interesting or useful to say about the last three episodes, now.
Yes, Huw Edwards was a bad idea. It's not like, say, the news reporter in Aliens of London, which was a fairly straightforward report. This was too fantastical and needed an actor to get the emotional truth of it.
Yeah this episode had a lot of theoretical stuff to be good, and then it just…epically failed. Being the emotional sap that I am, the themes of family and love and warmth and friendship should have had me sobbing. But god, when Rose whispered 'feel the love' and flung it to LAND PERFECTLY IN THE TORCH WTF and then Huw was going 'it's more than just a torch, it's a symbol of LOVE and HOPE' or whatever it was…well it was about the closest I've ever come to throwing up in my mouth. I am all for cheesy love. I am not for cringe-inducing ridiculousness.
Did like the way the TARDIS took a couple of goes to land though, that was a nice little moment of something you imagine must happen every so often. Hated the fact that in our modern, paedophile-fearing times, a whole street full of children had gone missing and all there was to show for it were a few posters and some mildly concerned parents. Are the police supposed to have been too busy with the Olympics or something, it's just ridiculous.
Rewatching it has made me look more forward to the Olympics though. 🙂 I am firmly convinced they will be awesome and I really hope that Papua New Guinea *does* surprise everyone because that'd be amazing. Also I have volunteered to help out so I might be there which would OMG BE SO AMAZING <3333
I want to know why the Olympic torch is apparently a symbol of love. I always thought it was more of a symbol of peach (and naked greased up men, WHY haven't we brought back that tradition!?) but not love. I mean, I love fire, but not the Olympic torch…. It's such a big deal that the torch can't go out, but it does all the time for stupid reasons. And something about the Olympic torch on a plane really worries me. Who else is on that plane? And who pays for it? For that matter, who pays for the Olympics in general? I know countries spend millions to billions to renovate their countries to host it…. But who pays for the torch running through cities and stuff like that?
Okay. Changed my mind. The Olympic torch stands for weird conspiracy theories that I'm making up as I type this. Love and Hope be damned! How many bribes do you have to offer the Olympic Committee to get to hold the torch!?
Yeah, the episode as a whole was a letdown, but I can think of a few bright spots! I liked the beginning, what with the neighbors turning against each other and the creepy kid making people disappear. It reminded me of a couple of Twilight Zone episodes! And ditto on Rose being left to figure things out. I also liked the end and I want David Tennant to at the very least participate in the torch relay. Everything in between was pretty BLAH (except for Kel's scenes!).
I think you were actually supposed to be angry at the mom for not paying attention to her daughter or talking to her about her dad's abuse and death, which in turn made her susceptible to the Isolus and so unsympathetic. You can see that in Rose's frustration when she comes back and the mom had left Chloe alone. It just wasn't done very well.
I wondered if they were going to go dark enough that the mother or child had killed the abusive father. They left his death ambigious enough that I wonder if that was the intention. If it was, I think I'd have preferred that, a bit more genuine darkness to stand against the sickly cheese that half of this episode was full of.
I thought it was a car accident? Still, I'd prefer if it if the mom killed him, too, if only because it would make her reluctance to talk about his death more interesting.
"Fingers on lips!" Haha the Doctor's such a crotchety old man.
This is one of the few episodes where I think Rose actually gets to show off a lot talent and cleverness, and lo, it's an episode with a pretty dull plot, in my opinion. Certainly, it's not a fan favorite.
And I found the overall plot with Chloe and her family to be kind of skeevy, race wise. The review already covers some of what makes Chloe uncomfortable, and then you compound it with them being one of the few black people on this show (relative to all the white people), and the child is sort of evil, and the father's legitimately abusive, and the mother doesn't really do anything.
If we're talking intentions, which isn't the same as outcomes, then it was almost certainly a colour-blind casting for the mother, with Chloe then cast to plausibly be her daughter.
I think pretty much all the casting happens that way, with half an eye for the overall balance of the show, but nothing specified at the writing stage unless they're casting someone to play a real person. For that reason, ethnicity probably isn't a concern in the scripts, unless there's specific reason for it to be.
Can I ask where you're from? I do wonder if this stuff is more charged in the US than in the UK.
I'm not aware of any complaints about race in recent Doctor Who (the old series is another matter, but also reflects the time it was made, they weren't actively trying to be racist – there was just a lot of ignorance around), except for one: after Rose was shown, there was some concern that Mickey wasn't a strong black male character. That wasn't repeated as he developed though and I imagine the role was also written with no particular ethnicity in mind. Mickey has to be a bit useless so that Rose will leave him. And Noel Clarke has said he isn't that happy with his performance, since he'd gone into shortly after finishing another shoot and he thinks he played it too broadly.
Unless the drama makes it explicit, I'm wary of drawing a relationship between ethnicity and either outcomes or characteristics. Good and bad people exist of all races and good and bad things happen to them, often regardless of how much they could be said to have deserved the outcome they get. If there's not an explicit connection or at least an implied one, then that's something you've inferred about the supposed message of the drama – and I'm not sure if that's a fair criticism.
When it comes to outcomes, in particular, I'm reminded of Miss Prism in The Importance of Being Earnest saying, about her three-volume novel, "The good ended happily, and the bad unhappily. That is what Fiction means."
No individual can be representative but I hope the diversity is sufficient to offer a variety of individuals over the course of the show.
By the way, the total ethnic minority population of the UK is around 8%, so inclusive TV almost always over-represents, in terms of pure numbers. This leads to lots of grumbling from the usual suspects, even though cast sizes make a strict 8% impossible – the point is not to make a few million people invisible on TV, which is how things used to be.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/focuson/ethnicity/
On the flipside, the concentration of ethnic minorities and immigrant groups in urban areas means that the likes of EastEnders are actually unrealistically white and British in their make-up. But if you're making a mainstream programme and around 90% of your audience is white and British then the compromise is to reflect that in your show.
USian, hi.
I don't think intention really means anything (unless the intention is to hurt, in which case it does matter).
So yeah, I'm talking about outcomes.
I'm not aware of any complaints about race in recent Doctor Who
Oh, trust me, they're there. And coming up.
The thing about "colorblind" casting is that when you have relatively few representations of characters of color on the show, any character of color being the villain/antagonist becomes skeevy, because percentage wise those characters of color are more often villains than the white people are. Frequently the villains/antagonists on this show are aliens and don't look human, or are disguised as humans and then we get to see the alien side (Slitheen, Love and Monsters, etc).
But in this episode, it's mostly a little black girl, and yes she's "posessed," but we don't really get to see the alien, just the girl. I know, budgeting, but again, outcomes.
This shit doesn't exist in a vaccuum. What happens in DW is not isolated from other media portrayals of people of color. So this sort of "colorblind" casting really doesn't work for me – if the product makes me feel gross, then it doesn't matter if there were only good intentions at heart.
I'm okay with Mickey's character, for instance, because he gets an interesting character arc and is more fleshed out than these one-episode characters. But you pretty much just have Mickey in terms of multi-episode characters of color so far.
So yes, "inclusive TV almost always over-represents, in terms of pure numbers." Only, POCs are almost always underrepresented in the cast of main characters. And when that's the case, the show is already losing and needs to make up for it, not potentially exacerbate the issue.
I often wonder the same thing about, say, the high number of Asian villains in the media (at least in the US of A), and then the high number of "Asian badass women". My best friend is Asian and she has brought it up with me recently, and now that I look for it I'm kind of appalled. Thoughts?
I'm Asian too, and it might just be Aussie having a higher population, but I have counted almost no (Oriental) Asians in Doctor Who. This is after S2, which is when I actively started looking once in a while, but they're not there. They're not even in crowd scenes.
Or I could just be really unobservant.
Toshiko Sato in Aliens of London and there are also a couple of Chinese characters who are friends of Jackie called (and I had to look this up) Ru and Bau. Ru gets to say "someone owes Mickey an apology". That's it so far, although there are some in the future, which will no doubt get a mention at the appropriate time.
There aren't many people of Japanese or other non-Chinese east Asian descent in the UK but our links with Hong Kong mean there's quite a large Chinese population. But, according to the last census, that's about 250,000 people (out of around 60 million in total, 0.4%). That compares to around 2,300,000 with roots in the Indian subcontinent (4%) and 1,200,000 of African descent (2%, with about half being from the Caribbean).*
So, I suppose Chinese descended actors are quite possible in comparatively short supply. I'm not sure if that's an excuse, though.
*figures: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=45…
NB: Asian in the UK context means south Asian – ie from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka or descended from from people from those countries but born in the UK, Iran, Iraq, Mauritius, Kenya or Yemen. More details about the people who classified themselves as "other Asian" here:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/nojournal/o…
That PDF also has details of east Asians other than Chinese who come under "other". That's about 100,000 people in total, roughly 0.2% of the population. They're mainly of Japanese or Filipino descent.
I actually am Asian, so yeah, I'm aware of this sort of thing.
Basically, all female Asian characters tend have a lot of sex appeal, villain or not. Most male Asian characters don't.
It's pretty hard to find any Asian character that doesn't fit this. So I'm guessing this isn't "colorblind" casting, as that's way too common for chance alone.
There was a show in the UK in the early 80s called The Chinese Detective, which from what I remember (not a lot) had a British Chinese actor in a traditional lead role. His name is David Yip and his is him from that time:
<img src="http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7001/chinesedetective.jpg">
I don't know how good it was (it was a bit of hit though, I think), but there's a write up here:
http://www.startrader.co.uk/Action%20TV/guide80s/…
When it comes to east Asian casting, though, I'd say that's definitely the exception more than the rule (although there could be something I haven't noticed).
Speaking as a Brit, programs and films originating in the USA now seem to have British people cast as either ridiculously posh people or villains (or both). Even when the villain is clearly from another part of the World, his (or her) penchant for evil is usually portrayed with a sort-of British accent. So stereotyping isn't just about skin colour! (Cue any number of movies where the good Arabs have an American accent, or a generic Middle-Eastern (Hollywood-style) accent, but the Arab Terrorist Leader always sounds like he's British).
In terms of accuracy, living in that part of London it would be remarkable if the street wasn't highly mixed ethnically, so colourblind casting for the mother makes perfect sense. The problems weren't with Cloe and her Mum, it was the cheesyness of parts of the script!
But the alternative would maybe to have cast a white mother and daughter, over concerns over the implications of the portrayal of the ethnicity. I'm not sure if that would have been a better outcome.
For the UK perspective, I just think that overall UK TV is better than US TV, so Doctor Who perhaps works better in the context of UK culture than it does within US culture. Honestly, unless it was explicit, I don't think many people in a UK TV audience would make a connection between someone's ethnicity and the way they behaved or the the outcomes they received.
And, again, if your total non-white population is 8%, that's a very different situation in terms of representation than the US, where the figure is much higher, in lead or supporting roles. Off the top of my head, though, here are some UK dramas or comedies with people of colour in lead roles: Hustle, Spooks, EastEnders, Small Island, Law and Order: UK, Casualty, Doctors, The IT Crowd, Holby City, Skins, Shameless, Coronation Street, Luther, Five Daughters, Misfits, Being Human.
The fuss that was made over Undercovers in the US seems really odd from a UK perspective.
Within Doctor Who, I count that people of colour appear either as regulars or in major guest roles in 54 of the 75 episodes. Now they aren't always wonderful people and they don't always get great outcomes but I don't think any of them pander to stereotypes or put character or outcome down to race. With one major exception, which I think it a big blind spot in UK TV, and which I'll return to when we get to it, if I remember (if you need a clue, I think it's also a big problem with Sherlock).
Which leads to:
"I'm not aware of any complaints about race in recent Doctor Who
Oh, trust me, they're there. And coming up. "
What I meant was complaints from people or groups in the UK who concern themselves with issues of race and racism. Like I said, since Rose not a peep, as far as I'm aware.
Just out of interest, and the issue of spoilers stops us from going into too much depth, what do you think the requirements for an ethnic minority character in a drama are? And how do they differ from a white character?
Good questions, all. I'm just going to watch and see, and measure my own reactions with a little more thought.
Yes perhaps this discussion is best left until the suitable points where the series unfolds. It's unfair to state:
"Within Doctor Who, I count that people of colour appear either as regulars or in major guest roles in 54 of the 75 episodes. Now they aren't always wonderful people and they don't always get great outcomes but I don't think any of them pander to stereotypes or put character or outcome down to race. "
When you can't rebutt that without spoilers. Also, that's my impression, but I may not have considered the specifics from the right perspective.
So, all in all a discussion left deferred I think.
Within Doctor Who, I count that people of colour appear either as regulars or in major guest roles in 54 of the 75 episodes. Now they aren't always wonderful people and they don't always get great outcomes but I don't think any of them pander to stereotypes or put character or outcome down to race
Haven't done any tabulations myself, but this disregards narratives and portrayals. I know that I personally have found a lot of problematic aspects in Doctor Who with regard to race (among other things), so Fear Her fits into a larger pattern and my original comment unfortunately seems thin when I can't comment on things yet to be reviewed on this blog.
What I meant was complaints from people or groups in the UK who concern themselves with issues of race and racism. Like I said, since Rose not a peep, as far as I'm aware.
Here's a blog post regarding Doctor Who and Race, specifically in the context of Britain (spoilers for season 3): http://spiralsheep.dreamwidth.org/125536.html
Fankly, you're just unaware, because it's not just a US-stance the people complaining are coming from.
Just out of interest, and the issue of spoilers stops us from going into too much depth, what do you think the requirements for an ethnic minority character in a drama are? And how do they differ from a white character?
There is no specific requirement, I just don't want to see an overall pattern of treating POCs on average with less respect than white people get on the show (which I see in DW). I don't want to see racial stereotypes, such as a black family being dysfunctional and broken. And yes, I know, there are white dysfunctional families on Doctor Who. But the context is different – white people as a group do not have the stereotype following them around that their families are dysfunctional, the way that people talk about black families and single black mothers and deadbeat black dads.
Like I said, I think this is probably a discussion for a time when we can talk about the show as a whole, rather than just what we've seen so far.
Edit: I will say one general thing, though. If you've written an episode with a dysfunctional family in it and you don't want to cast black actors in those roles then your option is either to rewrite your story or not cast black actors. I'm not sure if the actors would thank you if you were forced, by the demands of the story, to take the latter option.
Also, some black people do live in dysfunctional families, so I'd still contend that the overall picture is more important than individual instances. Which is something we can maybe return to when we can talk about the overall picture.
Edit again: you just had a "0" and since I know that if you're registered you automatically gave yourself a +1 when you posted that means someone just downvoted you. That's not on, in my opinion, your posts are lucid and well argued – especially since I put you in awkward position by making statements that can only be properly addressed by talking about the whole series (which we can't 'cos SPOILERS!). I've generally been upvoting you anyway, but had missed that post, so I've just upvoted it.
I know there's no rule, but please people, don't downvote good posts just because you disagree with them. This isn't a battle and I certainly have no interest in winning the argument for the sake of it (indeed I'm open to the idea that I may be utterly wrong on this subject, I just like to put opposing views in the hope of greater clarity of thought). I don't think it's conducive to discussion to downvote in that way.
Thanks for the second edit, and I agree about your policy on downvotes (as in, I'm made comments to the same effect in the past).
In response to your first edit, there's been only one instance that I can think of, this one, showing a black family so far. I'm not counting Mickey's grandmother since it wasn't even his grandmother, and it was hardly a picture of a stable nuclear family, anyway.
So this one individual instance is the only portrayal of a black family on DW that we have to go on, and it fits too neatly into the stereotype I noted above. Some black people like watermelon and portraying them as such would be realistic, but it'd still be problematic because the stereotypes exist. (EDIT: the watermelon thing is probably too specific to the US to be a good example, but I honestly don't know which racial stereotypes differ between the US and UK and which don't in order to give a better example off the top of my head)
If for whatever reason the script cannot in any way be altered and rewritten before shooting (which seems unlikely to me), then yes, I would rather not cast ethnic actors into roles that would propagate old stereotypes. Cast a white family, then cast your ethnic actors in a different role that doesn't have the same subtext. You don't have to deny them a job, so I think you've set up a false dichotomy.
And I finally got a chance to look closely at the websites you linked – it says the London population in 2001 was 29% non-white ethnic groups. 3 of the 4 major companions from New Who are from London, the fourth comes from a made up city, as far as I can tell. Given how often the show is set in London, I'd still say the show is at best, matching reality in terms of number of POCs given the companions (out of 3), but still probably under-representing given all the white (multi-episode) guest stars in episodes set in London.
I also found a news article from 2005 saying 32% of British people think multiculturalism "threatens the British way of life."
So the racial atmosphere between the US and Britain may be different in some ways, but there's certainly a lot of racism to go around in both locations, meaning it's still really important both places avoid potentially charged portrayals of POC. Which I don't think DW has done very well.
Of course, it makes a lot of sense that that sort of thing would be a "bigger deal" or "more of a fuss" in the U.S., simply because of the difference in POC population proportion. When I was younger, I was always so confused about why racial tensions were so much higher in the south, where there's the greatest concentration of African Americans, as opposed to anywhere else. I would have thought it would be the opposite. But unfortunately it often seems that the more interaction of "different" peoples there is–under whatever classification you please–the less tolerant the majority of people tend to be. It's a sad thing. So in the U.S. there's a big issue with race, due to it's somewhat unique status as the immigrant country it is, while in the U.K. the tension often comes more from class differences. But that's a discussion for another time.
um… also because white people in the US enslaved black people for many many many years. in the UK they just financed it.
I'm not aware of any complaints about race in recent Doctor Who
Then holy schnikies, you were not in this fandom at…uh, certain times. The major race complaints didn't start until later in the show. And I'm sure we'll get to relive all the fun when the time comes here, as well.
That was bad writing on my part, and I can't edit it now there have been replies.
What I meant was in the wider world of British culture, I was excluding fandom from that.
That's really interesting because the majority of my complaints are about the early seasons(at least wrt the more prominent characters, the minor ones…there's a lot more to talk about.)
Yeah I don't have a lot more to add that wasn't covered so I'll just go +1 everything said that I agree with.
Okay I actually went and googled some things about future seasons, if the conversation doesn't get wanky I'll actually be looking forward to it.
"By the way, the total ethnic minority population of the UK is around 8%, so inclusive TV almost always over-represents, in terms of pure numbers. This leads to lots of grumbling from the usual suspects, even though cast sizes make a strict 8% impossible – the point is not to make a few million people invisible on TV, which is how things used to be."
Well if you're setting the show in major cities, then that's pretty different. I'm kind of disappointed there haven't at the very least been more token south asian characters on the show, this being the UK and all.
I would agree that the casting was meant to be colorblind, as Russell T. Davies loves to reuse actors and the mother played one of the main love interests in his version of Casanova (also starring David Tennant). So it was probably more about hiring that specific actress for personal reasons and casting a child that could reasonably be her daughter. Whether or not that ablsolves the episode from unfortunate implications is up to you.
I would agree that the casting was meant to be colorblind
I would agree with that too. I'm not saying RTD is rubbing his hands together and plotting how best to be a racist. But I think outcomes are much more important than intentions, and this episode doesn't sit well with me, especially when I find there is a problem with the portrayal of characters of color on DW beyond this episode.
This episode rates a 3 for scariness.
I have watched this episode once, and again I will not rewatch this episode. Not for money, love, or anything.
But I do hope Tennant gets to carry the torch a bit.
How did it get that 3?!?!
Not a favourite, but some nice lines in it. I like the notion that he likes the manliness of his right hand (the one he regrew after the sword fight which of course replaced the one which he'd complained about in the Tardis as being a bit weak in the wrist department). The chat between the Doctor and Rose was great, using Fingers on Lips to silence everybody was nice too. The fingers in the marmalade jar was nice too (the look on his face when Rose indicated that he shouldn't be doing that). The rest, too much cheese even for me!
Oh, if it's an old plot, that's fine. If it's a future revelation, no.
It's an old plot. I think it's mentioned in passing in other episodes, but never in full.
The doctors first companion, in his first appearance was his granddaughter. So not only did he have children but at least one grandchild. A whole family on Gallifrey. I've never seen the first series, so I'm sure some other fans can tell you a little more about her and her storyline.
It's worth a look. In many ways the spirit of the orginal few seasons was what they were looking to get back to with the new series. The character arcs are taken seriously and there's a great sense of mystery.
The original casting was Ian, a science teacher, to cover the educational science stuff and be the leading man; Barbara, a history teacher, to cover the historical stuff and be the heroine; The Doctor, a grouchy old man anti-hero, who kidnaps them; and Susan, his granddaughter, designed to appeal to the kids (she was 15 and at Barbara and Ian's school). Also to get into peril a lot, which she did (and screamed).
They made them related because they thought an old man travelling with a young girl would be really dodgy. It also gave them a way of passing on information about the Doctor that he was too prickly to give himself (he softens over time, by the way).
Honestly, I don't think she was that great a character (unlike Romana, say) since the idea's about Time Lords were very rudimentary then (they weren't named until 1969 and Gallifrey wasn't named until 1973). Mainly she's a pretty standard 1960s teen, with occasionally odd alien tendencies.
Perhaps we should vote for Mark to watch An Unearthly Child when he goes for another old Who?
I was going to suggest Genesis of the Daleks because of it's retrospective connections to the Time War, but maybe seeing the Doctor as a grandfather would be more interesting this time around. Plus seeing how it all started, of course.
The Doctor's granddaughter is named Susan? TERRY PRATCHETT I AM LOOKING AT YOU
Yes, once the original TARDIS team have all left, the first Doctor mentions her only a couple more times at most. The second Doctor has a lovely moment with Victoria in Tomb of the Cybermen when talks about remembering his family, and that's about it, other than the 20th Anniversary special. (Oh, and Dimensions in Time, but we don't need to go into that.)
i cant remember if anyone else has brought this up yet, but i dont get roses logic at one point. she quite clearly sees that the kids, once they get out of the drawings, show up from where they were taken. so why would she think that the doctor is anywhere but right where he was taken? he wasnt captured in the house where the rest of the drawings were, so why would she immediately go running towards the house to search for him?
She was waiting in the street where the Doctor and TARDIS disappeared, looking for him. She only runs up to the Webbers' house when she realizes that the drawing of Chloe's abusive dad is coming to life, too, and that she needs to help them.
Not one of the best, but I didn't really think it was that bad. As for the Isolus stealing the kids to make itself less lonely … it's just a child and children don't really think logically. It didn't think they'd be unhappy if they had each other. All it could focus on was the fact that it was lonely and wanted people around.
IDK
OMG MY THE FINALE!!!!
What's even more a shame about this is that not only does it come back to back with Love and Monsters, both of them are like this block of average or utterly awful after the excellent two parter. It's kind of lucky you're watching the show now when the run's out already.
Can you imagine having to wait a week after Love and Monsters for "YES, MORE DOCTOR WHO!!" and get…this?
You basically hit it on the nose about what's wrong with this episode. (although I can't say I agree with the kid being a good actress, but each to their own).
I tried rewatching this episode once. I had to turn it off after like 10 minutes. That's how bad it is. It's the one episode I just can't bear to watch ever again. The Doctor carrying the olympic torch? No just no. (that's just the final nail in the coffin) When even Rose and the Doctor get unwatchable you know they f*cked up big time. At least with the garbage out of the way we can get back to business. YOU ARE NOT PREPARED.
i totally….. TOTALLY forgot about this episode!!! i was telling my daughters the other night… i dont know if there is a "new" episode of doctor who that i just hate. i think i blocked it from my memory cause it was sooooo this one!! and the fact that my daughter cried over the cat and no the kids or anyone else… well.. do i need to say more?
As a fellow abused kid, Mark, I agree with how offensive this is.
And as someone who doesn't believe in the concept of love, the idea of it saving the day is so ridiculous to me that it's insane. The way some people weren't scared by The Beast in The Satan Pit because they don't believe in Satan? Pretty much me not being moved by The Love in Fear Her because I don't believe in it, either.
The only good thing I can say about this episode is that it has two actors from Love Actually in it and that made me grin.
I had friends who were abused, and their mums were emotionally abusive after that with their callous behavior towards them. In a way this is realistic, but it's unfair that the way it's done makes it almost look like it's Chloe's fault, when it certainly isn't. Perhaps if her mum had a better relationship with her daughter she would have known something was wrong? This episode got my back up when I thought of my friends.
I agree that it's somewhat realistic, I guess I just…because this is a children's show, I wonder how many of them picked up on the fact that it wasn't Chloe's fault, and that her mother was reacting poorly to her. While as an adult, I can see that while it might be sort of realistic, that doesn't mean it's right, I wonder how many kids got that. I guess I'm just thinking of kids who might've seen it and thought, "Oh, this is my fault, Doctor Who says so."
Then again, that may not be giving children enough credit.
Either way, it definitely rubbed me the wrong way and I wish so much that what was a fairly good premise hadn't gone so wrong in the execution.
I agree with you 100% on this. The concept of 'love' as some completely seperate, all powerful force is always a little…meh. It sort of reminds me of fairytales with 'true loves kiss' saving the day. Even when I was very little I thought that was a load of rubbish.
That sounds so much better than the actual episode.
It really does.
On second watching, I knew the episode was crappola, so I was able to ignore the bad parts and just enjoy the good. Which is more than I was able to do with "Love and Monsters." And there were lots of good parts.
"Fingers on lips." Then the Doctor has to pantomime to Rose that yes, this means her, too.
Loved the Doctor lighting the Olympic flame. And his joy in doing it. If you're going to do cheese, If you're going to do cheese, go all the way.
The Doctor landing his TARDIS between two dumpsters, without room to walk out the door. So he has to re-park it.
Chloe's pencils hidden everywhere. Man, you can't ever imagine all the places where an addict hides their drugs.
About Rose's selfishness: Here's the thing. We're all selfish. We all want what we want, even if that means "I'm going to sacrifice and do something for someone else, no matter what it costs me, because it satisfies my sense of values." So Rose is selfish . Tell me that you're not.
Oh, I know I'm selfish. I wrote an entire blog post about how I knew I was selfish and that, frankly, I don't care that I am because I know that I am. I won't deny what I am. I am selfish, rude, narcissistic, nerdy, etc. And I love that there's someone else in this world who sees that the world is selfish. Everyone is. My friends all try to deny it. "I am not selfish. Just because you're a selfish bitch doesn't mean you have to lump us all together." *shakes head* I need new friends. (And I apologise for the crazy rant.)
I'm selfish. Believe me, for too long, I let people take advantage of my good nature and walk all over me. Becoming selfish and saying "No, this is what *I* want and I'm going to make it happen" was the best thing to happen to me. Consider this, before the Doctor came along, Rose was unhappy at her job, working retail and had no plans to really change that because… what's the point? But then comes the Doctor, she's introduced to adventure, and she knows that she wants more of that in her life. Nothing wrong with that.
lmao, this episode aired about three years ago, right? I would have been around thirteen. So I was pretty scared by the drawing thing then. Now? Not so much.
I'm really here because I was late to the X Files partay and would like to say that I too am a massive fan of the show. I only watched it recently (as in, last year) and missed loads of episodes for various reasons, but even just from what I've seen it is my favourite program ever. I'm starting a re-watch soon so I can catch all the episodes I missed first time around.
Also, I am hopelessly devoted to Scully, who – just, my love for her is on a parr with my love for Hermione. I might even love her MORE than Hermione. Goddamn brilliant female character is brilliant <3
Scully love! ^^
I bet Scully was a lot like Hermione when she was younger too.
Scully would also doubt the existence of the crumple-horned snorkack, that's all I'm sayin'. 😉
I'm not surprised at your reaction to this one Mark, you find positives in lots of weak episodes but this is one of the worst.
But it is a positive day, because for me you've made it through the worst back-to-back episodes of Dr Who. I'm actually quite glad I only watched and discovered the show last year, as I'm not sure I'd have made it through the 3 weeks between 'Satan Pit' and the next episode.
Very excited to read the next couple, FINALE TIME!
I it inappropriate to just type LIKE about your review and be done with it? It doesn't align 100% with how I felt, but it is certainly one of my least favourite new-Who episodes. I don't have time now to talk about why or how or what/etc. but I want to. SIGH.
Yeah this episode, didn't bother to re-watch it…:\
Always feels misplaced to me, filler before the finale two-parter.
The parts I like are his fingers in the marmalade jar and saying that he was a dad once. His tone was interesting. Just off the cuff but I think that it hides a deep, deep pain that he can't/won't speak of. Very mysterious.
I'm not wild about the Chloe Webber character, but I think that might be more writing and directing than the actress. The forced whisper goes straight past creepy into, if I may quote the Doctor, "No, don't do that. No, really, don't."
Welcome to the nearly universally disliked episode of NuWho. I agree with your points (seriously! If it's just graphite, erasing it should do about as much as trying to "erase" the whole tip of a pencil uhhhhg), and would like to add a couple of my own pet peeves.
One: Plot point through news broadcast. There's a little more of an excuse for this one, but it's one of those little things that usually features in RTD episodes (Aliens of London, etc) where news coverage is used to scale up an event and provide commentary on it in a way that makes it kind of impersonal and disconnected from everything else. Bad shortcut.
Two: Cryptic statements made by characters to build a sense of foreboding. Especially when it doesn't particularly fit with the character or the current situation. (Really doctor? A storm? Sky looks clear enough to me. Good enough weather for fireworks after all. Why don't you just say "I feel a series finale coming on!")
Yeah. And I could expand on the bits I agree with you about, but I am running late for work and this is really not a very good excuse to arrive late!
Hahah, no kidding about point 2.
Rose: "Gee Doctor, we sure make a great pair! Bet we'll be together forever!"
Satan: "YOU WILL SOON DIE IN BATTLE!"
Fear Her: :: gratuitous hugging ::
Doctor: Storm's a'coming!
Yo mark, I think a lot of the reason she was cold with her daughter was because the isolus was feeding off the love so there was no love for the parents to give their children, hence why the parents seemingly did not care too much about the children up and missing. Anyway, that's probably my least favorite Tenant episode anyway. Also, I miss you dude, it's been too long.
I always really hated this episode, and you described it pretty well (Also, what the hell was going on with the music?)
The best thing about the episode would be that it introduced me to my OTP Doctor/food. In this case jam.
Doctor/TARDIS and Doctor/food are the only true ships.
Well, for completion's sake, I'm going to talk about the worst Tardisode ever.
This Tardisode appears to be in the style of a fictional Crimewatch-style program called Crime Crackers. [Emphasis on Crackers.] The presenter is on a London street, as he tells the viewers that a young boy called Dale Hicks and a young girl called Jane McEllen have gone missing, with the police having no idea where they are, followed by an encouragement from the presenter for the viewers to phone in and give information (to a 19-digit telephone number), at the same time revealing the road to be "Dame Kelly Holmes Close"
The scene then changes to a cupboard in a dark room, which suddenly bangs open to reveal a pair of red glowing eyes. A voice rasps "I'm coming…"
I'm afraid my description doesn't do this justice, so here's a link. But be warned: the tone is really inappropriate for the subject and there just isn't enough cheese in the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15txVlbeEXg&fe…
"Joined a GANG?"
OMG it's terrible.
"Don't want to talk to THE COPS?"
What?!?
The dramatic turning around and finger point 'Crime Crackers'
Wow, that is so bad. Can you imagine the complaints and outrage there would be if any show treated the disappearance of young children like that in real life.
You are not prepared for the finale, Mark, so NOT prepared.
Yes Indeedy. Soon, this episode will be a just bad memory.
Let's have you fix all the bad episodes.
Doctor: Are you deducting?
Rose: I think I am.
Actually she's not deducting, she's inducting (inducing?).
Also: SIDE PONYTAIL
I love you, Rose Tyler.
<img src="http://www.kyrina.org/images/FearHer/animations/FH_HeadPoke.gif">
<img src="http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/2200000/2×11-Fear-Her-GIF-doctor-who-2250165-200-113.gif">
I did not like this episode. I did not like Ten's open shirt collar. I did not like the girl's acting. This is like my most negative comment ever. I did LOVE the TARDIS mis-park.
<img src="http://www.kyrina.org/images/FearHer/animations/FH_DisgustedLook.gif">
Oh and I also liked the council worker guy!
<img src=http://i39.tinypic.com/zlbrlt.jpg>
I remember hating this episode when I fist saw it, just because of the cheesiness of the ending and the fact that most of it was just…stupid. But it's only in rewatching it now that I realise what a terrible portrayal of abuse it has…not good writers, not good.
On the plus side, the two-parter next is jUST AWESOME. I can't wait!
Hey Fusion back for trivia. Sorry you had to watch this crappy episode. The only thing I want is for David Tennant to actually light the 2012 torch. There’s ton of facebook groups asking for that and… Oh we’re on?!
Sorry about that. So let’s get to the trivia!
A. This is the only Doctor Who episode to deal with child abuse. Thank God for that.
B. When the fans were told to vote for their top 200 episodes this got 192 making it the lowest-rated episode of the new series. Hard to see why.
C. The logo seen in the episode was a logo they were thinking of actually using. Should have used that one.
See you for the finale!
Hey Fusion! Where've you been? Missed your fantastic facts around here.
Hey Nyssa. Sorry. My computer broke down and it just got fixed a few days ago. Great to see I was missed.
Me too! I hope you have been okay, but I'm glad to see that you have returned.
C. The logo seen in the episode was a logo they were thinking of actually using. Should have used that one.
Maybe if the episode had been better received, they would have? *sigh* Thanks for eliminating that nice logo, Matthew Graham.
Yet another reason this is a horrible episode…
Can you guys tell I hate this episode? If not you need to FEEL THE LOVE!!
Yay, you're back! 😀 I too had been wondering where you were!
Do I just have a small dedicated fanbase who wants this for every episode?
Well that’s one way to keep up someone’s self esteem. 😛
Bit more info on "B": it was readers of Doctor Who Magazine who voted.* Also, there were only 200 stories up to that point (actually it depends how you count them, but they went with 200), so they were voting on the whole history of the show, since 1963. The stories that rated lower were:
193. Paradise Towers.
194. The Underwater Menace.
195. The Space Pirates.
196. Time-Flight.
197. Underworld.
198. Time and the Rani.
199. Timelash.
200. The Twin Dilemma.
Although, personally I think a lot of those are more watchable (Timelash is hilariously rubbish and an anagram of "lame shit" to boot).
Anyone curious can see the list, starting here:
http://lifetheuniverseandcombom.blogspot.com/2009…
SPOILERS for future episode titles and the their reputation in that corner of fandom.
*which I'd say makes them fans, but I suspect there may be more than one type of fandom (trying to shy away from the can of worms around The Girl in the Fireplace, which came in at #11).
As I’m also sure you can tell Mark for these episodes to be lower than this they must have REALLY sucked. Time and the Rani is especially awful.
This is my Number One All Time Most Hated Doctor Who Episodes. EVER.
Seeing you list out the good parts made me realize that it wasn't all bad, but I just cannot sit through this episode. I've been doing little rewatching marathons so that I can keep up with what happened when, but I refused to watch this episode.
And because every other post I've done today had a gif
<img src="http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lezmevq3wg1qaxbx5.gif">
I'm just glad we are past what I consider to be the two worst episodes in the Whoniverse. I mean, there are other slightly rubbish episodes but these are the bottom two, IMO. Although Fear Her was better than Love and Monsters IMO.
EDIT: I forgot to mention and I haven't seen anyone else say it yet… but how the hell can the Doctor/ the TARDIS manage a perfect 90 degree turn but goes a year too far or to other countries/ wrong centuries/ whatever! Oh TARDIS, can't you just be a wee bit more consistent?
The Tardis is a dramatist at heart.
Beloved Tardis tends to take the Doctor wherever *she* wants to go with no regards to his feelings most of the time. (She wears the pants in this relationship.)
Oh my god, I could watch that .gif forever. I love it.
oooh, on a slightly random note though, who else really loves those ebible ball bearings? ^^
LOOOVE them. And every mother type figure that I have always tells me I'm not allowed to eat them which is, of course, like a giant EAT ME sign blinking above them.
Hey, was that Alyson Hannigan pushing a stroller at the very beginning of this episode?? We rewound it 3 times and 2 out of 3 people agree that it was her, lol.
I didn't HATE this episode but I don't love it either. Let me clarify, I love all of the Rose/Doctor interactions, but the plot was just so-so. Idk, the main thing I didn't like about this episode is that I was bored :/
BUT the next two episodes make up for it 🙂
It DOES look like her. Her and Alexis Denisof and their daughter are like the cutest family ever btw.
Yeah. One of the few episodes where Rose isn't punished for being independent… and it's fricking terrible! As you say, it could have been really good but the script was lacking. Rose and Kel are brilliant, I love the "fingers on lips" moment and I also love the moment when the Doctor shuts Rose up by simply stating that he was a dad once. Oh come on, Rose, how can you be so shocked? *headdesk* You know the guy is over 900 years old!
I agree, why isn't everyone more upset about kids disappearing? When kids go missing here in the UK, the tabloids go crazy over it. Didn't see any of that! I don't think Matthew Graham meant to belittle or insult survivors of abuse, he probably could have done with some advice from one, though. Honestly, the very setting of the episode irks me. Dame Kelly Holmes Close? We get that it is 2012, you do not need to smack us over the head with the name of an Olympic champion. And dear God, the Olympic torch sequence. AWFUL, HORRENDOUS, PAINFUL… some of the words that come to mind. "Feel the love"? Was that all you could come up with, Graham?! I expected better from someone who created the original Life On Mars and Ashes To Ashes (which I hope you'll take a look at someday, Mark). Huw Edwards is obviously floundering and I'm sorry, but I really DO NOT WANT David Tennant to carry the Olympic torch into the stadium, because it might give some justification to this sequence.
Also the massive anvil the Doctor drops at the end about "a storm coming"? So heavy and unnecessary. Graham, I am disappoint.
It's very unlikely that Matthew Graham wrote that bit, it's Mr Davies you should be disappointed with.
It worked, though. Big ratings for the finale.
Whoever wrote it, it Could not have been any more foreshadowy if it was wearing a foreshadowing sign around it's neck.
Haha, right? I do not need to be hit over the head with the foreshadowing, thank you.
Oh really? *snort* One more thing to add to the list then.
I honestly don't think the big ratings for the finale were down to that one terrible line but because of general finale excitement and what the advance publicity was saying.
Being clubbed over the head with that amount of foreshadowing was practically Smeyers worthy (I know, I know, don't mention the name).
But then again, maybe getting a negative reaction was just to make sure we'd all survived that episode with our senses intact?
Rose: You said it was in the street.
Doctor: Probably.
Rose: The girl!
Doctor: Of course! What girl?
Rose: The girl with the power
No?
The power of voodoo?
Voodoo? You do!
Do what? Remind me of the babe.
<img src="http://www.gifsoup.com/view/171908/labyrinth-o.gif">
I love all of you for that!
FFFFFFF HAHAHHA I LOVE YOU ALL.
I don't know how I missed this thread yesterday. THUMBS UP FOR EVERYONE.
Btw Mark, I forgot to warn you yesterday about how suddenly the preview for the next episode comes on at the end of this episode. I hope you weren't spoiled, because it is a really spoilery preview.
Haha, this sounds like what I did with the 2009 Christmas special. As soon I stopped watching, I immediately started editing in my head. Good edit and I agree with all your changes!
Why do you hate the conversation at the end? Because it's so FRICKING OBVIOUS AND UNNECESSARY. We did not need it.
LOL this reaction post. Yeah this is often lauded as the worst episode of Doctor Who ever, and although it is not my personal least favourite I would never claim it is very good. I see 3 pages of comments so someone's probably already mentioned, but I think it was written in like a week or something to replace an episode that was too costly to film? So that's probably part of it, including the "UMM… CHILDREN'S DRAWINGS ARE SCARY RIGHT' cost-saving scheme. Still, not the best.
But YES, FINALE. Omg.
LMAO, I literally have nothing to add that you did not cover in your review, Mark. I hated this episode for ALL the same reasons you did. ALL OF THEM. I especially identify with the offense you took at the portrayal of abused kids and your confusion at how this turned out so horribly with themes that are good in theory. This episode just… wow, I really really do not have any words that aren't regurgitating yours. End comment.
eta: oh god still laughing at the gif XD
Awful, awful episode. The only thing I like about it is the Schrödinger’s Cat joke. And to think that we could’ve had an episode by STEPHEN FUCKING FRY, the Awesomest Person Ever, and got this pile of crap, makes me curl up in a corner and weep.
I hate this episode! HATE IT. HATE IT. HATE IT. HATE IT. HATE IT.
Okay, hate's a strong word, i could never hate anything to do with Doctor Who because this show is literally my soul mate. So i'll settle for really really really really REALLY intensely dislike with a passion.
If i had a TARDIS i would so go back in time and burn this episode out of existence!
At it's best Doctor Who takes the humdrum, silly and insignificant things of everyday life and turns them into beasts dripping in creepiness. But in my 22 years of being on this planet i have never opened my wardrobe and said, 'holy shit! There's a doodle in my wardrobe. The end is nigh!'. I don't find doodle dad scary, threatening or creepy. I don't even find it funny or mildly ammusing, it just completely fails every single time.
I use to think that this episode would fit better into The Sarah Jane Adventures, but after i started watching it last year, i doubt Sarah Jane's audience would find this scary at all. The Sarah Jane Adventures has some freaky shit it in! There's one creature thing that, if i were a child, it would probably give me nightmares! *shudders*
Though there are a few things i like in this episode:
The Doctor parking the TARDIS the wrong way round.
Edible ball bearings. I love food that's in the shape of things you're not meant to eat, like sugar paper, i use to love eating that. Even though it tasted horrible!
The cute kitty.
The Doctor's line about not being a cat person anymore.
Kel is an adorable character.
Rose with an axe.
The Isolus is really pretty.
The shock on Rose's face when the Doctor says he was a dad once.
The firework scene at the end. (Even though it seems like it was just crammed in at the end to try to create some suspense that the rest of the episode spectacularly failed at)
But all those good things are eclipsed by the massive let down that is the DOODLE IN A WARDROBE.
I'm so glad we've got this episode out of the way because, in my opinion, every episode that's left is a trillion times better than this one. So, onwards! 🙂
Also: YOU ARE NOT PREPARED. OH GOD.
It has been a while since I felt that Mark needed to be told that he was not preprared, but right now MARK_ YOU ARE NOT PREPARED.
YES. So not prepared. *Rocks backwards and forwards at the prospect of Mark's level of unpreparedness*
He is as unprepared as an unprepared thing living in a state of unpreparedness!
Mark! You are not cognisant of the impact of this series! Excrement will become Factual!
Okay, I have nothing to say about this episode that hasn't already been said, but I do have two things:
One: You know the finale is a two-parter? Excellent. I'm calling Saturday review.
Two:
SERIOUSLY.
SERIOUSLY, YOU ARE NOT FUCKING PREPARED.
I WANT TO POINT AT YOU AND LAUGH AT YOUR UNPREPAREDNESS.
(I won't, 'cause that would be mean, but you get the idea).
YOU UNPREPAREDNESS KNOW NO BOUNDS
This has been: a capslock addict yelling at you. (Sorry, Mark).
Oddly, I don't hate this episode. I think it was the cat.
Cats make everything better. Just look at the sharp upswing in awesomeness Harry Potter took when they introduced Crookshanks.
Haha! But I think it was awesome from the start. Cat McGonagall was like the third character introduced in the first chapter of PS/SS.
Schrödinger’s Cat FTW! 😀
They should have just left the box there, and pondered whether the cat was in it. And if they didn't look, was it both in it and not in it at the same time?
I'm afraid the joke would've been lost on the majority of the audience… 😀 This way it was only hinted at the SC. Still, it made me LOL.
And I love the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle-inspired creatures that will appear in a future episode (won't say more, 'cause of spoilers). 🙂
Oh no! Scribble Monsters!
I'm sorry. I know it's bonkers, but I love the scribble monster. At least it's not sickly sugary sweet and it's not rude and offensive, which is more than you can say for most of this episode.
On the whole, I was pretty meh about this episode. Not my favourite.
Since you're not doing weekend posts, we have to wait till Monday for Part 2 of finale??!
Oh God.
Mm. I never thought this episode was all that terrible (not as annoying as the last one anyway) but I can see how it would be very problematic. My actual recollection of it is pretty fuzzy, though, except for the fact that after watching it that Kookaburra song gets stuck in my head every. damn. time.
This is the only episode of the revived Doctor Who that I dislike. I don't hate it. I do dislike it.
Mostly because there were a bunch of good ideas mishandled terribly, thrown in a pot, stirred several times at a lukewarm temperature and and then topped with cheese. I think my metaphor my have got away from me there.
I reckon the trapped-in=drawings idea could have been made scary. It's one of those mundane ideas that a certain Mr Moffat could probably have made insomnia-inducingly terrifying. Sadly, he didn't write this one (although if he had the central premise would probably have been a lot different).
For me the one redeeming feature is this:
'I'm not a cat person.'
'No… I've met cat people and you're nothing like them.'
I fond the scenes with the Olympic torch to be just cringe-inducingly, toe-curlingly embarrassing with a dollop of nauseous sentimentality. Please pass the sick bucket.
Um, that cat-people exchange is from a later episode.
Argh. A milliuon apologies; that's becaue I'm a dribbling idiot.
I meant</> to quote this exchange:
Rose: What?
Doctor: No, I'm not really a cat person. Once you've been threatened by one in a cat's wimple, it kind of takes the joy out of it.
But then I thought of the other exchange, which also amuses me greatly and, in a moment of distraction typed the wrong one, dumping great TARDIS-loads of spoil upon all. Just exterminate me now. 🙁
It's just possible that Fear Her is so utterly made out of fail and woe that my brain tried to substitute other bits in a subconscious effort to somehow make it better. Bah.
Apparently I fail at typing html tags today too. At least I win at fail. :/
Hated this episode with all the passion I could muster. My wife *thinks* she's seen every episode, but she lost count and this one mysteriously never happened.
As much as I enjoyed the little girl's acting, there were several times when she made me miss Jamie aka "Are you my mummy?" boy. I am surprised that I remembered what this episode was from just the title (I was at work, on breaking when I read your tweet about the new review) but then realized all I remembered was the creepy girl who did kid drawings and that it had the 2012 Olympics. And I agree with many above you said that David has to be involved somehow. It would just make the world a better place (especially if he does light the torch in costume. Exact costume would be even better. We could all pretend Doctor Who was actually real…) Okay, maybe I've gone a tad too far with my nerd ness (though I will admit to not being as big a Who nerd as many here. I'm late to the game like Mark (though I am up to Series 5 viewing ATM.)
I get this episode and "The Idiot's Lantern" mixed up all the time – probably because it's the Doctor and Rose running up and down a neighborhood street trying to solve the problem. It's not that great, but it's not wholly terrible either. I do enjoy all the little Ten/Rose interactions and Kel the Council Guy is pretty funny, but there's nothing greatly memorable about this episode (but I am holding out some hope that David Tennant will make an appearance on the Olympic torch route, if not as the one who actually lights the torch).
Oh, and here's my obligatory – Mark, YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!!!!
I get this episode and "The Idiot's Lantern" mixed up all the time – probably because it's the Doctor and Rose running up and down a neighborhood street trying to solve the problem.
Haha, that's happened to me too before.
I get this episode and "The Idiot's Lantern" mixed up all the time
HEY me too! I was wondering if they were filmed on the same location or something, but not at all. Still, they are kind of similar once you think about it- disappearing people, focus on one family's personal problems, big event for England going on in the background…
Um, so, I entirely disagree with your last comment, because…
DAVID TENNANT NEEDS TO ACTUALLY CARRY THAT TORCH IN A YEAR. THAT IS ALL.
Also… Finale. Wait for your brains to be blown out, and your heart to be shattered.
It would be awesome if they could have all the Doctors (sadly I know the First Doctor.. and maybe the second.. are not alive) carry the torch. ONLY IN MY DREAMS. Or with actors to stand in for the 'missing' Doctors?
While this is one I don't tend to rewatch on its own, I don't skip it when I rewatch the series as a whole like other people do. It's just not something I can do, skipping episodes of a show.
I mean, sure, I'll catch random episodes every now and then, and there are definitely episodes I've seen more often than others. Sometimes I'll seek out certain episodes (or, you know, the entirety of Series 4 proper) to watch, just 'cause I'm in the mood for something Doctorish. But, rewatching shows like I do (any show, actually), I'll watch the whole thing. And I end up feeling like the episodes with the worst reputations aren't as bad as people think. Or I can find something enjoyable in them anyway. I don't know. I'm probably just an odd duck. (Or Ood.)
That said, I think I've only watched this episode and the previous one in the context of a series rewatch.
HA! Jesus take the wheel. I love that gif. Yeah, pretty poo episode all in all. Yay for super duper awesome two part series finale.
Hey Mark, if you start the two-part finale tomorrow then we're going to be stuck without the second part until Monday! And you said you'd be unavailable this weekend, so will you have to wait to watch the second part too? Just wondering, because that is BAD PLANNING and in my opinion, you should just watch/write about both tomorrow.
Re: How does the Isolus kidnapping kids help it
You're right, the kids were miserable and that's why it wasn't working, but the Isolus didn't realise this and that's why its response was to try and get more and more people, thinking that would fix it. The Isolus took the kids when they were happy and playing and it thought that in joining it there would be even more playing and fun.
Re: Abuse
It was clear from the episode that the mother was going about it all wrong. She thought that pretending that what happened never did would make it go away whilst Chloe needed to express that she was still hurting. At the end of the episode, when the mother finally decided to stand by Chloe and confront her fears together is when Chloe's nightmares can begin to go away. I don't think Chloe's mother was annoyed with Chloe herself. She talked proudly of what she was like before the Isolus took over her.
Re: The Olympic Torch
The Isolus knew where to land because it could ~feel the love~ of the crowd directed at that flame. Whether this makes one ~feel the love~ too or barf depends on their personality.
Yes, good observations, these. I'm not suggesting this episode didn't fail, but lets at least get the details right.
The Isolus' logic was this: I am lonely. Chloe is lonely. Therefore if I join with her, that will be better.
But that's not enough, so we'll get more people, especially kids, to join us and that will be even better.
I've got them and they're unhappy, but that's because there still aren't enough of them, so I'll take the whole Olympic stadium, then that will be better.
We're still unhappy because it's still not enough people, so I'll take the whole world and when the whole world is together we'll be happy.
The Isolus always sees the problem as not enough friends and therefore the solution is always to get more. She/it doesn't understand that friendship is about individuals. To her/it it's just a question of numbers.
The first doctor travels with Susan, who calls him grandfather and as far as I know she is indeed his granddaughter. Also as far as I know, there isn't any actual additional information as to the doctor's family beyond that. I might be wrong though.
So, it just hit me that because of the Time War, Susan has been wiped out along with the other Time Lords. ;_;
ENDLESS TRAGEDY.
According to a conversation with Victoria in "Tomb of the Cybermen", all we learned subsequently onscreen was that he had a family once, and that they sleep in his mind.
You know, I don’t mind this one. It’s not one of my favourites, but I don’t hate it either. I think I kind of like it because it comes after “Love and Monsters”, which is really the only New Who episode I cannot stand, so I have an unreasonable affection for “Fear Her”.
I could not give less of a crap about the plot. It’s basically a giant piece of emmental: cheesy and full of holes. However, it’s full of great Doctor-Rose moments.
Rose: Aren’t you a beautiful boy!
The Doctor: Thanks, I’ve been experimenting with back-combing…oh.
Is the Doctor actually jealous of a cat? I don’t know, but that’s a hilarious moment. Also, his preoccupation with ball-bearings you can eat. The "I was a dad once" bit? Heartbreaking, and hardly surprising that Rose was shocked, although communication is not exactly the Doctor's strong suit. Not surprising for anyone familiar with the old series though; Susan had to come from somewhere, didn't she?
Kel is all kinds of awesome. If only everyone loved their jobs that much.
I didn’t really see Chloe (or even the Isolus really) as being portrayed as a selfish brat. Chloe is possessed, and the Isolus is just a baby, totally alone and terrified. It’s probably not on its best behaviour. And since we never really see Chloe as herself, I think it’s safe to assume that most of the nastiness was the Isolus talking.
Overall, I don’t have a negative reaction to this episode, I tend to kind of forget it exists. Also, there are no words in the English language that can properly convey how unprepared you are.
Yeah I thought Chloe's mom was clear that she was an awesome kid before she went and got posessed.
The backcombing line is one of my favorites in the whole series, but I've never really liked this episode.
Also, when Rose says "feel the love" to the pod, I just start singing "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" which at least makes it more bearable.
Oh my God, what a fantastic strategy. If I ever chance upon this episode again, I will definitely sing that song when the scene comes up.
Haha, my brain constantly makes (somewhat inappropriate) connections like this, no matter what I'm watching, so I'm glad that someone else enjoys it!
Oh yes, I've worked out what you mean.
Different ideas of what constitutes abuse, perhaps, or just a memory failure…
Still, SPOILERS!
I have never seen this episode.. I think I shall sit down and watch it. FOR THE LULZ.
Yeah, this god-awful thing is one of a few season 2 episodes, actually, that I don't think I will ever re-watch (one of the others was Love & Monsters, actually, which meant at this point I was like Don't You Dare Fuck Up The Finale, jerks).
Hold on, Mark!
It looks like lots of others have said what I wanted to say about this episode, so instead I'll just say: DRAGÉES. I don't know how/why it happened, but when one of my brothers went to a wedding, the cake had actual (inedible) ball-bearing balls on them, rather than the traditional (though still technically inedible) dragées. 🙁
Just watched the 2 parts of the finale. Heh. Very excited for the reviews!! Mark, would you POSSIBLY consider doing two tomorrow or one at the weekend? Just so we can have the niceness of ending a series and ending a week? No real reason except it would relax my obsessive compulsive tendencies a wee bit 🙂
If it's not "Love and Monsters," it's "Fear Her." I don't particularly mind this episode, but I don't like it either. I haven't done a rewatch since I first saw it.
I actually really loved the scribbles because they reminded me of the scribbles from Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends. And I freaking loved that episode as a kid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EJ1iaN7Nzw
“I was a dad once.” WHAT!!!!!
Yeah. He was also a granddad once. Who knows, in the centuries he was away, he could have become a great-granddad. Hold up, didn't Susan have kid called Alex or Alec or something? Yes, he definitely became a great-granddad.
And Kel. He was amazing.
I'm so determined to say something positive, and that's all I can come up with. Meh.
Fine. Fear Her is the FIRST episode to deal with child abuse. Sadly it had to start on that.
Seriously guys if you want to correct my facts tell me. I don't want to feed misinformation.
The Doctor. Carrying the Olympic Torch. This show is like 74% cheese, but seriously too much. I can’t. I just can’t.
That's the only thing I remember from this episode, and it is horrible. The rest I managed to block from my mind. That's…pretty much all I have to say about that.
Oh, except for one thing: Chloe's mother is played by Nina Sosanya, who is pretty darn awesome in Five Days and the Shakespeare Retold version of Much Ado About Nothing*. So…yay her?
*Which features Billie Piper as Hero and at least two other actors who will be on Doctor Who in the future in major roles as well. Why? Because there are only fifty actors in Britain, that's why. 😛 BTW, I recommend that Much Ado HUGELY.
This episode … WHY! They have all of time and space to mess with. THEY DO NOT HAVE AN EXCUSE FOR A BAD EPISODE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IF I HAD A GIF I WOULD POST IT!!!!!
<img src="http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f155/Starsea/smercy-WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.gif">
Ta-da! 😀
This episode just causes me to have like rage blackouts. there are moments in it that are good but as a whole it is just …..AAAGGGHHHH!
I think the very last straw was when the doctor lit the torch, because the olympics is about the best of humanity, the doctor is supposed to celebrate the best of humanity not make one of humanities crowning moments of awesome about him, an alien who needs the love of humans.
although if its taken as meta doctor who as a story is a pretty damn big moment of awesome
wasn't a fan of this episode, but i wanna see David carry that torch. I WOULD ACTUALLY WATCH THE OLYMPICS IF HE DID.
note: Finale? IN TERMS OF PREPAREDNESS, YOU ARE NOT.
Again, I still love Love and Monsters, and rate it as nearly the best episode of Doctor Who there is (oh, me.) but I really don't like Fear Her. So there, I agree with fandom (I'm actually pretty glad I never was part of the fandom at this point, which is a sad thing since I'm hugely part of Joss Whedon fandom with no problems.) Fear Her is pretty terrible. The dad-monster-in-the-closet is MY least favorite part. As someone mentioned previously, it would be better had that whole thing been taken out. I watched the commentary, and it sounds like one of the reasons they put him in there is so that Chloe could threaten to 'let him out' if they tried to stop her drawing the world. (By the way, why did she have to draw the world so massive? Everything else was on a small piece of paper. Other than the fact that it TAKES HER LONGER to draw a massive Earth, there was no reason for it.)
I think the scribble monster is cute, but sort of just there for a laugh and not really scary in the slightest.
Yes, my favorite part of this not-very-good episode is the Ten/Rose dialogue, which is more evidence about why I think they make a wonderful, amazing couple.
It does make me sad that Ten is not a cat person, if only because I'm a cat person and despite being threatened by a humanoid cat from millions of years in the future, there's no reason he can't have some love for the soft and fuzzy non-sentient animals.
Also– apparently the fact that everyone has an LCD TV in their living room and has TV on their computers was just a prediction of the future by the writer. I think he did a pretty good job. 6 years, not a whole lot has changed, but there are a lot more affordable LCD TV's on the market now, and live CNN can be accessed from the computer. It's not as easy as *click* TV, but it's still pretty close.
Good points, those, and I agree completely.
I think his comment about being or not being a cat person was a reference to the nurse cat-people in New New York. I don't think he dislikes cat or people who are fond of cats, but does dislike people who are part cat, literally a Cat-Person.
I actually like this episode, mainly for the character moments. The interaction between the Doctor and Rose in the TARDIS was the best. The kids discussion, and the Doc grins and thinks Rose wants to hold his hand, and she just laughs. That's so Ten. It's just sweet, and so in character, and a lovely character moment.
Can I also say I like Rose's hair in this one and Idiot's Lantern? She needed to keep it up more!
Oh, about the comment on his kids. Remember the conversation between Doctor Constantine and the Ninth Doctor in The Empty Child?
Doctor Constantine: "Before this war began, I was a father and a grandfather. Now I'm neither. But I'm still a doctor."
The Doctor: "Yeah. Know the feeling."
Moffat dropped that anvil way back in the first series. 🙂
It was a tough episode to sit through. I had just gotten into Doctor Who and I was literally watching them back to back to the wee hours of the morning on Netflix instead of studying for my Business Finance final. BUT, that is neither here nor there.
The concept of the episode was alright but I agree with everyone else here. If you literally have all of TIME AND SPACE to bother with why would you pick London Olympics and silly drawings?!
BUT, on the plus side, I LOVE the Doctor's new chill outfit. It shows how comfortable he's getting with Rose and traveling together has changed him. I love seeing them interact. Billie and David really did have AMAZING chemistry!! Which makes the next two episodes, total emotional death.
You are not prepared, sir.
Having just watched this episode, I can clearly and firmly say, I like it.
I think some of the vewiers, including Mark, missed the point with some of the issues in this episode. The whole thing with Chloe drawing her father…SHE DIDN'T draw her father. She drew the NIGHTMARE idea of her father, the pure, raw hatred of abuse that came with her father. She clearly drew that.
The reason she drew it? Perhaps the Isolus in her realized that Chloe couldn't have that, and was trying to trap it somehow in drawing form. There's no specific way this thing works anyway, so there's always that theory.
A child when it is abused is obviously emotionally scarred from that abuse, and some children DO draw their feelings. Someone like Chloe, who draws anyway, then suddenly gets this THING inside of her that allows her to take control of her feelings, she's going to draw her feelings, the nightmare, of her abusive father.
I got the feeling the ship was drawn to the Olympic torch, not that it conveniently landed in it. It draws its power source from that, so I felt that it knew it was near a power source (heat/love) and went straight for it.
As for the Doctor's torch run, it wasn't cheesy, it wasn't dumb. It was a heartwarming ending to an episode where NO ONE DIES.
Forget about that? No one died, and everyone lived in this episode. (excluding the father, who had died a year ago, and technically, the nightmare/idea of him died in the episode)
It was very obvious that Chloe wasn't the selfish one, that it was the thing inside her. I never once thought that she herself was being selfish/love-stealing. Either the child was an alien, or was possessed by one. Simple as that.
I really liked this episode, it was a good mix of creepy, and wonderful happy at the end.
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i'm just now getting through these (why i resisted watching along with you from the beginning is any one's guess, but oh my god why have i never watched this before and why won't any one take me seriously when i tell them they NEED to be watching doctor who is making me insane) and i don't know if the threads are still "alive," so to speak… but i have to say i completely disagree with you and it made me a little sad you did not like this episode.
(sorry about the huge, run on sentence)
i also am an abused child and i actually identified with chloe and the representation of the horrors that can plague you after your abuser leaves you. i don't know why she would draw her father — but i dig that it was in the closet; he clearly represented the boogie man. i can't remember now if they said chloe's father would come to her at night, but that imagery is very clear to me. she's having nightmares, there's a monster in her closet, how messed up is it that the monster can come to life? i think it's clear chloe drew a lot before the isolus came to her, and maybe chloe understood that when she drew somebody that was there, they entered the little realm (i'm assuming) in her head… so if she drew somebody that was inside the realm (again, assuming) of her head (e.g. in her nightmares), then it's not that far of a leap to wonder if they would then *leave* the realm.
this episode broke my heart in so many ways. i disagree that chloe was characterized as super needy or whatever… i thought it was perfectly plain that the chloe before the isolus, while lonely, was nothing like the chloe she became. and dude, being an only child that has previously suffered abuse? ACTUALLY KIND OF LONELY. especially if her mother felt that "things" were better left not talked about — as was mentioned in the episode.
anyway. yay doctor who (who's a father, apparently!)! totally digging it.
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