In the ninth episode of the second series of Doctor Who, the Doctor confronts the ancient being held captive deep inside of Krop Tor and is forced to re-evaluate his philosophy of life. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to watch Doctor Who.
FINALLY. FUCK YES. A second part that is JUST AS SATISFYING AS THE FIRST PART. Matt Jones, the most highest of high fives.
Man, WHERE DO I EVEN START. The episode opens with Ida and the Doctor staring into the unending blackness of the pit of the Beast. (HOW AMAZING DOES THAT SOUND. This episode is like one giant Iron Maiden record.) Meanwhile, the advancing Ood on board the base have sadly transformed these amazing creatures into the scariest things ever. THEY CAN ELECTROCUTE YOU WITH THOSE WEIRD ORBS. What the fuck, guys. It sucks because I actually think the Ood are kind of cute? They seem so benevolent and this entity exploits their telepathic powers to use them for evil. WHATEVER YOU ARE, I HATE YOU. What makes this all worse is when they manage to contact the Doctor and Ida and he actually recommends they retreat. Seriously, when the Doctor wants to give up, you probably should.
Matt Jones then continues to ramp up how shockingly confusing this is when the Beast begins to speak through the Ood, having an unbelievable conversation with the Doctor. The Beast says that he is not Satan. Or Abaddon. Or any specific demon from one religion. He is actually ALL OF THEM.
The Doctor: Then you’re…what? The truth behind the myth?
The Beast: This one knows me, as I know him: the killer of his own kind.
The Doctor: How did you end up on this rock?
The Beast: The Disciples of the Light rose up against me and chained me in the pit for all eternity.
The Doctor: When was this?
The Beast: Before time.
The Doctor: What does “before time” mean?
The Beast: Before time and light and space and matter. Before the cataclysm. Before this universe was created.
The Doctor: That’s impossible. No life could have existed back then.
The Beast: Is that your religion?
The Doctor: It’s a belief.
HANGING ON EVERY WORD. Matt Jones and Russell T. Davies, seriously, this is some of the best writing I’ve seen on Doctor Who. You both have taken what is, admittedly, kind of an “out-there” theory, and you’ve made it intriguing and frightening. BRAVO. (I was told Davies contributed heavily to rewrites on this and the last episode, so props must be given to him, too.)
Unfortunately, the cable that holds the lift snaps, trapping the Doctor and Ida below the surface of Krop Tor and this awesome moment is TOTALLY RUINED.
Back to the Doctor. It was completely fascinating to see him spend so much time with Ida because Jones transforms her from a side character that moved the plot along to a full-fledged character who becomes integral to the Doctor exploring his own personal philosophy. He’s faced with an interesting predicament: with little oxygen left to keep them both of alive, it almost seems imperative that Ida and him spend their last moments descending into the pit to find out what’s at the bottom of it. I really love that Ida is so adventurous even in these final moments, helping the Doctor devise a method for him to rappel down into the hole. It’s only when faced with her mortality, right when the Doctor reaches the end of the cable from the now defunct lift, that she expresses reservations about his journey into the pit. It’s actually a really sad moment to me because she wants him to return solely because she doesn’t want to die alone. You can hear the fear wavering in her voice when she says it.
Completely contrasted with this is another character who doesn’t have the Doctor around, Rose, who acts totally fearless. Watching Rose rally the remaining crew, using the words of the Doctor to inspire them, is one goddamn fantastic character moment for her. I’d say that the only real “complaint” I have about this episode (and it’s a very weak complaint, at that) is that the Ood subplot kind of becomes nothing more than a chase scene to me, though I have to admit that it WAS creepy and watching Jefferson SUFFOCATE TO DEATH was just awful.
I think it’s my only complaint because in comparison to what’s happening with the Doctor, it just pales in comparison. One of the most beautiful shots of the entire show is the Doctor hanging from a silver cable in utter blackness. Though, yes, I have to acknowledge that there wouldn’t be any light shining on him to compose the shot since he was in ~total darkness~, but whatever. POETIC LICENSE. I was also willing to completely shed my disbelief about the moment the Doctor reaches the end of the cable just so the writers can do the most awesome thing ever: have him take a literal leap of faith. If this episode is about the Doctor confronting a world that contradicts his beliefs, than this is the moment he decides it’s best to simply accept that he might be wrong. And he rushes to face that reality with nothing but excitement, a reaction that is so deeply inhuman. Humans are prone to sticking with what they know and what supports their beliefs. The Doctor merely casts it aside.
Without spoiling it for those who haven’t watched it, was anyone else reminded of the last season of LOST while watching “The Satan Pit”? I couldn’t help but notice the…mum…similarities.
Actually, on that point, the way that Jones/Davies wraps up this episode is brilliant because it never provides us with every answer. The Doctor never vocalizes his thoughts on what the Disciples of the Light were or how they were able to create a gravity field around a black hole and guess what? I DON’T EVEN CARE. The idea that there was some ancient society BEFORE TIME EXISTED that managed to capture “Satan” and trap him with a black hole is seriously the COOLEST THING EVER. Right? Right? Of course it’s cheesy, but it’s done so creepily that I end up not caring at all.
It’s even made scarier by the concept of Rose being forced to leave the Doctor behind and riding along with the mind of the devil. RIGHT. It sucks that Toby is the one who has to be possessed and ultimately die because of SATAN, but it makes the “escape” scene a lot more claustrophobic by stick the three survivors in a rocket with him.
I think the crucial detail to making this whole epic plot work is that the Doctor is, once again, faced with saving the entire universe or sacrificing Rose. However, the difference this time is that he refuses to believe that Rose is just an unwilling victim. After nearly two years of traveling with him, he can’t believe that she is the type of girl to simply give up, and his gamble proves correct. He destroys the gravity field and Rose takes it as a sign to shoot out the cockpit’s window. I get how Toby’s body gets sucked outside, but should the rest of them have suffocated? A small plot hole, I think, but not enough to distract from the whole episode.
THOUGHTS
- TORCHWOOD! I heard it! I thought that maybe I missed something in “The Impossible Planet,” but it was in part two. So they are on that planet because of Torchwood? WHAT THE FUCK. I don’t get it.
- “If I might choose the manner of my departure, sir, lack of air seems more natural than, let’s say, ‘death by Ood’.” OH, JEFFERSON 🙁
- When the Doctor said, “That’s so human,” at one point in the episode, all I could of was, “That’s so Raven.” my brain.
- This is really the only episode that has an overt reference to God. So if this “satan” here is real, is there a God in the Who universe?
- “…tell Rose…tell her…oh, she knows.” OH GOD WHAT. You sly dog.
I thought Rose unbuckled Toby before shooting out the window? IDK it's been a bit since I've seen this episode.
She did. Also, they immediately triggered some sort of shield to cover the gap left by the busted window, if I remember correctly.
Ok, just making sure I wasn't making things up. I tend to do that with plot holes…
She does, but what I mean is that wouldn't breaking the glass have created a vacuum that sucks out all the oxygen as well? So they shouldn't have been able to breathe.
Actually it isn't there some theory that you still have 30 seconds or something? Or is that just some made up Sci-Fi bullshit. There's tons of works where characters are temporarily exposed to the vacuum of space but quickly return to the world of oxygen and survive.
I've heard that, too. The amount of time changes with each show, it seems.
Actually, if you were exposed to the vacuum of space, you could survive (briefly). The rough scenario of a spaceship loosing pressure and the air being sucked out id actually happen in the early years of space flight to three Russian cosmonauts in 1971. After the hull was breached, the air was lost within 30 seconds. One cosmonaut attempted to manually shut off a valve that would have stopped the air loss, but the valve took longer to shut than there was air. All three cosmonauts passed out and, sadly, died of suffocation.
So long as you exhale as the air is being sucked out of the room (I know that goes against human instinct, but that's so you don't suffer explosive decompression in the lungs) you should be okay so long as you get an oxygen supply back quick enough.
To read more about it (including a slightly longer account of the poor cosmonauts who suffered this first-hand) check out this article at Damn Interesting: http://www.damninteresting.com/outer-space-exposu…
Yep. LOL. As much as I love these two episodes, all of the gas in the shuttle should have been sucked out with Toby. But shhhh… I'm willing to ignore that in face of all the AWESOME philosophy and character exploration and action that this two parter contains.
http://www.dailycognition.com/index.php/2008/10/2…
According to this, a guy who was exposed to hard vacuum by NASA was unconscious after 14 seconds. Apparently, if you give someone pressurized oxygen within 90 seconds they can survive without major problems. After that their blood begins to boil.
*all the upvotes* fascinating article, thank you 😀
NP! Science is AWESOME.
Try watching the two episodes together at two in the morning.
I could see forever after that O.O
Nearly died.
Why EVER did you do such a silly thing? These two episodes are meant to be watched in broad daylight, with the windows open and all the lights on, anyway.
"If I believe in one thing…I believe in her!"
BRB DYING FOREVER.
Sorry, I know a lot of people here aren't big Ten/Rose fans but honestly, this episode did it for me.
<img src="http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d173/ppyajunebug/TenRoseSatanPitHug.gif"/>
I admit, I'm not much of a fan of Ten's first few companions. I've always been more partial to the one who is most noble. But this two-parter almost made me ship Ten/Rose. Almost.
I thought I was going to hate the one who is most noble, how wrong I was!
LOL, nice circumlocution there. The one to which you refer is my favorite too.
I kind of go back and forth on whether I ship Ten/Rose (I do ship Nine/Rose to a certain extent) but you can't deny how adorable they are. Whether they're "in love" or just love each other (if you know what I mean), I do think they're great together.
well put… they are great together – given she's 19 and he's a 900 year old alien, I don't worry about the shipping aspect 🙂
Lol, brilliant dodge there XD Love that one, too.
I'm not a big shipper of, well, anyone, but I'll admit Rose and the Doctor have great chemistry.
HATERS TO THE LEFT. Ten/Rose are awesome and the stuff of legend. They are a wonderful team. They're partners who have utter faith in each other. Rose makes the Doctor more human and the Doctor has made Rose into the kind of extraordinary woman who can rally those people on the space station like that. She's grown so much this series. Contrast her actions here with the unsure manner in which she conducted herself when faced without the Doctor in The Christmas Invasion.
Sorry, but Haters Gotta Hate.
I ship all Doctors/TARDIS ^.-
That's the Ship to end all shipwars..
Doctor/TARDIS OTP!
This forever.
Why it's practically canon!
I honestly like all of the Doctor's companions (from the new series'). They've all got totally different things going for them. But as far as shipping…yes…Doctor and Rose forevers and I love it. I don't know how you can hate on Rose after these episodes, but hell, I don't understand how people can hate on Rose after the whole Bad Wolf thing either so… Whatevs!
Where there's a will, there's a way.
YES. And this is the episode where I fell madly in love with the both of them. Rose evolves as a character so much here. And her and him, they have such a chemistry. She is extraordinary. And she does have a lot of the same characteristics and quirks that the Doctor has, and that is why they have that chemistry. They just bounce wits back and forth, such a wonderful couple to watch.
I never 'shipped' them as such but I love the best moments of their friendship, and this was a high point. Wibble!
I have to say, I am a huge Doctor/Rose shipper… not just Ten.
This episode. Oh man. And that hug at the end. Just… they're so… perfect.
I think this being the firs episode I saw of the new series might be the reason I ship them so hard.
*firsT. Damn sticky keyboard.
I'm admittedly more a fan of Nine/Rose, but these episodes made the Doctor/Rose shipper in my squee so hard.
"If I believe in one thing…I believe in her!"
900+ years of time and space, the loss of his planet and his race, and in the end, the one thing the Doctor believes in is Rose. LOVE.
This episode is undoubtedly awesome and wonderful and all that. I just wish it could have been an hour long, it felt rushed and brutally edited in places which I think is a shame. Still one of the best ever episodes (as a two-parter) though!
This is my favourite episode of the tennat-era Who. Superbly acted, touching and makes you think. Also THAT HUG at the end between the Doctor and Rose and then….'The stuff of legend!'
Oh, believe me, she knows. I am on the fence with this episode, not entirely sure if I love it more than "The Girl in the Fireplace" which as far as what you have seen is my favorite.
'The Girl in the Fireplace' is my 2nd favourite – i adore the storyline but this one edge it for me. The pace, action and Tennant acting his socks off at the beast 'good gods, bads god nd demigods … that whole pantheon' (I may have got that quote slightly wrong) make it the ultimate one me 😀
Know I have the 'That's So Raven' theme in my head. Thanks!
Toby shushing the Ood? HOLY SHIT O_O
The poor Ood hugging each other as the planet gets pulled into the black hole is so, so sad 🙁
Oh, YES. I LOVED that the Beast was the inspirtion for every great 'evil being', but was so much worse and so much more. How bad could it have been if it had escaped it's prison? Thank The Doctor no-one will ever know.
I don't think God is ever directly referenced or mentioned in Dr Who. Perhaps there is a sentient, benevolent entity like The Beast in this, but I doubt it. The series would have tobe very careful, as the British Media (especially The Daily Hate Crime- I mean The Daily Mail) would have a complete FIT about it.
Ugh the Daily Fail, even the name makes me shudder inside. Mind you I'm sure they've already said enough horrible things about Doctor Who, along with everything else in life.
Not being British, I don't really know…but what's the Daily Mail famous for? (Specifically in regards to DW). I hear it gets a lot of flak, but I'm not sure what about.
The "God" thing in Doctor Who is complicated, at least as far as I know, because you've got stuff in the classic series like the Gods of Ragnarok, and the White and Black Guardians (the latter are a duo who represent order and evil/chaos/entropy, but they aren't even real beings IIRC, more optical illusions? it's hard to explain).
I just refer to the show as "possibly pantheistic but it's rather irrelevant."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI
Not at all related to Doctor Who, but it's a funny song about the Daily Mail.
I love Dan and Dan!
You know I don't really have much to say about this episode outside of 'This!' to your review and also how much I love the extended cast in this. They were all great and I love their interactions with each other.
<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/2qk2bkl.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
I forgot to mention it yesterday but I like the touch of explaining that they have special bullets that only work on organic matter so they don’t have to worry about bullets piercing the walls and venting atmosphere.
‘You could've said, you stupid b..’I love cutting off swear words.
It can be seen as a bit overdramatic but I do love the way the Beast talks, grand and dramatic with a great mythological tilt to it all. I'd love to know how does the Beast know things about them all? Mind reading? Tapping into the Ood’s telepathic links? It was a great reveal of Toby still being possessed with the finger on the lips to the Ood. Totally believed he was fine before that.
‘Also, Ood 1 Alpha 1 – deceased with honours. Ood 1 Alpha 2 – deceased with honours…’ After not even being registered as life forms earlier in the episode I'm happy to see the Ood get some respect in the end.
Amazing GIF, fyi.
Sadly not made by me, just thought I'd share.
The stuff of legends!
I love the psychological warfare that the Beast utilizes. It’s playing on that little niggling doubt and fear that people have (whether or not they’re religious) that Satan might be real. It’s becoming the “stuff of legend” (except not in the epic way that the Doctor and Rose are, heh) to latch onto your deep and dark fears. The Beast gets into your mind and pokes at those things deep inside of you that you might hide even from yourself and exploits them.
Rose in this episode is absolutely a hero. By this point in her story, the Doctor has brought out the best in her and she’s becoming more and more like him. She refuses to let the team gives up and rallies them to fight back. Then in the end, she knows she can’t let the Beast get back to Earth, so she risks her own life to ensure that the Beast can’t leave.
She’s also clever. She figures out that the Beast couldn’t have killed them all, but didn’t. The Beast needs them alive and escaping. And that’s when she figures it out. The Beast is still in Toby. That’s my girl! Using her logic!
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/GuyCrazy1017/Doctor%20Who%20screencaps/2x09rosetylerhero.jpg">
The Beast: [in the possesed body of Toby Zed] I am the rage and the vile and the voracity. I am the Prince and the Fallen. I am the Enemy, I am the Sin and the fear and darkness. I shall never die. The thought of me is forever; in the bleeding hearts of men, in their vanity and obsecrate and lust. Nothing shall ever destroy me. Nothing!
Rose Tyler: [Rose picks up a bolt gun and prepares to shoot the cockpit's front window] Go to Hell.
[she fires, the window brakes and then she unbuckles the seatbelt were the possessed Toby is sitting in. The Beast gets sucked out into the K37 Gem 5 black hole and screams in agony]
The Doctor’s storyline in these episodes is great too. He’s so tempted to go down into the pit, but thinks better of it and starts to head back up. But then he’s trapped down there and he can’t resist anymore. That impulse to just go down there is too much. He has to know what this thing that calls itself the Beast is. It exists outside of his paradigm and that doesn’t sit well with him. He has to struggle with what he believes in and see what this is all about.
Doctor: Have I got to beg an audience? Or is there a ritual? Some sort of incantation or summons or spell? All these things I don’t believe in, are they real?
In the end he comes to the conclusion that what he believes in is Rose. He believes in her humanity and her ability to survive.
This episode also serves as a great continuation of the exploration of the Doctor and Rose’s relationship that was started in the previous episode.
Zachary Cross Flane: [after hearing that the Doctor fell down a pit and there is very little time left to escape the planet] We're leaving.
Rose: I'm not going.
Zachary Cross Flane: Rose, there's space for you.
Rose: No, I'm gonna wait for the Doctor, just like he'd wait for me.
Zachary Cross Flane: I'm sorry, but he's dead.
Rose: You don't know him.
[beginning to cry]
Rose: 'Cause he's not. I'm telling you, he's not. And even if he was, how could I leave him… all on his own, all the way down there? No, I'm… I'm gonna stay.
See, I don’t see this incident as this weird clingy thing where Rose wants to stay behind with the Doctor’s body. She just has absolute faith in him, much like he has in her. The Doctor says that if he believes in one thing, “I believe in her.” The same is true for Rose. She’s seen the Doctor beat impossible odds and come out of seemingly hopeless situations time and time again. She knows the Doctor. He’ll get out of this and she’s not going to abandon him.
And the Doctor isn’t going to abandon her either. When the cable snaps and he and Ida are stranded by the pit he says, “I’ll get back. Rose is up there.” I love that he just states that as fact. There’s no question that he’ll get out of the mess he’s in. He is going to get back to Rose.
The climactic scene in the Beast’s cave with the Doctor and the Beast offers a nice bit of insight into their relationship. Rose is not just a victim and the Doctor has faith in her.
The Doctor: [the Doctor has realized that, if he releases the Beast and destroys it, both he and Rose will die] So that's the trap, the great test, the final judgement, I dunno. But if I kill you, I kill her.
The Doctor: [the Beast laughs evilly] But that implies, in this big grand scheme of gods and devils, that she's just a victim. Well, I've seen a lot of this universe. I've seen fake gods and bad gods and demi-gods and would-be gods. I've had the whole pantheon. But if I believe in one thing… just one thing… I believe in her!
Of course this episode contains the infamous, “oh she knows” scene. Seriously, these two need to have a DTR (Define The Relationship) talk.
That hug at the end is just so completely epic. Seriously, the Doctor and Rose are just too cute.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/GuyCrazy1017/Doctor%20Who%20screencaps/2x09endofepisodehug.gif">
Ida [over the comm from the team’s rocket]: But Doctor, what did you find down there? That creature. What was it?
The Doctor: I don’t know. Never did decipher that writing. But that’s good. The day I know everything, might as well stop.
Rose: What do you think it was? Really.
The Doctor: I think we beat it. That’s good enough for me.
Rose: It said I was going to die in battle.
The Doctor: Then it lied.
[…]
Ida: Hang on though, Doctor. You never really said. You two, who are you?
Doctor: Oh… [smiling] the stuff of legend.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/GuyCrazy1017/Doctor%20Who%20screencaps/2x09thestuffoflegend.jpg">
Maybe it is a bit stupid that the Doctor and Rose have such utter faith in each other, but in a story that is all about figuring out what you believe, I think it’s touching. The Doctor and Rose don’t need a deity to believe in. They believe in each other. THEY are the stuff of legend.
>I love the psychological warfare that the Beast utilizes
Oh yes. Knowing just the right thing to undermine each and every one of them.
The Captain, so scared of command.
The soldier, haunted by the eyes of his wife.
The scientist, still running from daddy.
The little boy who lied.
The virgin.
The killer of his own kind.
And the lost girl, so far away from home. The valiant child who will die in battle so very soon.
The virgin thing makes me laugh though – which sucks cause the rest are all pretty poignant. So this melodramatic voice saying "VIRGIN" as his most damning secret? Kinda ruins the moment for me.
I know, WTF is up with that?
Am assuming that is "why the Beast could possess him." Which you would think would be the other way around. Being a virgin is supposed to protect you.
Yes, I'm sure that was quite deliberate by the writers: the virgin is gets posessed by evil, and also the virgin is *sacrificed* in order to save them from the beast.
Plus, if you think about it, `little boy who lied` and `scientist still running from daddy` aren't exactly damning to the outside observer, but that's not the point. The point is that these are things that particularly worry the individuals concerned. And we all have those. Little things that would seem `no big deal` to others, but to us individually, they matter.
Maybe he also can't drive =/
I just like that it wasn't a girl who was the Virgin. Usually a big deal is made of a girl's PURITY and VIRTUE or whatever, but boys don't get the same treatment, so I liked the reversal.
The exchanges the Doctor has with the beast are great partly because the Doctor suddenly isn't SURE. It's so interesting to see him off balance when he's usually so certain of things.
Oh the Beast is epic, all right. Just in the completely opposite way from the Doctor and Rose.
Plus Rose knows he can regenerate, so even if he died there'd be a new one that she can't just abandon.
â– “…tell Rose…tell her…oh, she knows.”
I love Ten's delivery of that line. Love it.
I've finally caught up with you on Who! This is my first time watching and this is undoubtedly my favorite episode so far. I too LOVED that conversation the Doctor has with "Satan". Also, for some weird reason it really touched me that the Doctor acknowledged the Ood and how he was unable to save them. Poor Ood. 🙁
That speech is fab…highlighting the Doctor's intelligence and limitations in one blow, and when he refuses to let Rose be a victim..my heart aches for them! Without a doubt a fantastic twosome :D. Also the actor who plays Zac acted with DT in Casanova…which was created by Russel T Davies who then offered delectable-david the part of the doctor!
I hate that the Ood storyline gets sidelined. I mean, okay, "Satan" is tormenting them, reasonable excuse not to bother with trying to save the enslaved race. But still, no resolution to it.
And then at the end, it's nice that the Captain memorializes them and all, but hello? They don't even have names. Still really creepy.
I just really hate that the writers introduced this awesome species, and then totally didn't utilize them in anything interesting except in a creepy villain capacity.
I think it says a lot about how bad their treatment is that they don't even get registered as living things on the base scans.
Friends of the Ood!
Well, they're just 'property', right? Eurgh.
He says they don't register as "proper life-forms". HOW ARE THEY NOT LIFE-FORMS?? They're clearly walking around, living and sentient, even if humans think they're dumb as bricks. Honestly, my cat would lose a contest of wits with a brick, but no one would deny that a cat is a life-form. ARGH.
Sorry, I love the Ood. Can we get Hermione on this one?
" Honestly, my cat would lose a contest of wits with a brick"
LOL love it 🙂
Oh gods, Hermione would so totally start a Pro-Ood Rights Movement and it would be glorious. And have a weird acronym that Ron could make fun of and Rose would giggle at, then get super serious when Hermione glares at her.
*is imagining an alternate universe where Harry Potter and Doctor Who exist simultaneously*
As for anything else… *places his hands over his mouth*
"Pro-Rights for Ood Movement"? PROM for short? Do they have proms in Britain the way they do in America?
Society for Ood Understanding and Liberation – SOUL. Nice counterpart to the Beast here.
I'm thinking you created the acronym right there with PORM! Even though I know what was coming, I still had a typo with an N first!
*sitting on my hands*
… that is all…
The best second half of all 2 parters so far, amirite?!?
Oh these episodes really are brilliant 🙂
I remember crying at Jefferson's death… So brave! (iirc… that is… hope I'm thinking of the right guy!)
Well, I still prefer The Doctor Dances but that's just me. 😛
Same. Though this two-parter surprised me, and actually held up quite well to developed cynicism. I'll definitely give it the nod for second-best two-parter….so far. =D
Yay, I'm not alone! 🙂 Agreed, 'so far'. 😉
I'm with you, I love this one, but The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances may be my favorite. It's either that one or a two-parter we haven't seen yet :-).
Say no more. 😉
Without a doubt, this is one of Rose Tyler's finest moments. I don't know how anyone can call her "selfish" after this. She shields Toby when Jefferson wants to kill him. She inspires the whole crew to save themselves. Rose herself doesn't know the possibilities, but she knows that the crew knows, and she pushes them to dig deep into their knowledge to find ways to defeat the Ood and get off the planet. Everyone around her performs better because of her. This is real leadership! The Torchwood crew would have died there without her, and would have died again in the spaceship with the Beast possessing Toby. And again, Rose saves the day. She has faith in the Doctor, but she doesn't need him to come through with her own best.
No, she is selfish, and that's why this is one of her finest moments. RTD said in his book that Rose is selfish, so times when she can let go of it like theater are times when she flies. Honestly, I wouldn't have her any other way. Being selfish is just part of who she is along with the bravery and love.
Theater? Whut?
Continuing…
As for Rose and the Doctor, they're just brilliant. I don't do shipping; I can think of too many couples I've known in real life that didn't belong toegher, to take sides in a TV relationship. But the writers want us to believe they're in love, and I buy it. It's Rose's first big love (I can't see her ever being this passionate with Mickey…) The Doctor is re-learning what it means to care deeply about an individual. It's just huge for both of them. Beyond that, these two actors have incredible chemistry; they both completely sell it.
What will these two crazy kids do next?
“…tell Rose…tell her…oh, she knows.” OH GOD WHAT. You sly dog.
I don't really consider myself much of a Ten/Rose shipper(just a little one), but these little things that they put in there just kill me :')
You're right, Mark, it is terrible for the Ood to be used for such appalling ends, but… is it really that different from what the humans were making them do? Slavery is slavery.
Rose is awesome in this episode. I actually like her storyline more than I like the Doctor chatting with the Beast. I even tolerate the hug at the end of the episode (which feels like too much straight after the one in The Idiot's Lantern) because she bloody deserves a hug after having to do what she did. I mean, she killed someone. Yes, he was possessed but still… she killed someone.
Do you think the Beast was telling the truth about "the Valiant Child who will die in battle so very soon" or was it just messing with their minds?
It lied. Definitely. It did seem the sort of thing he would say just to fuck with them, didn't it.
I really wish it hadn't said child, because this episode is quite Ten/Rose shippy and so nicely done that it even makes me want to support Doctor/Rose . . . . and then Rose is described as the Valiant Child and I am slingshotted back into my OMG900yr age difference ewww squick.
*sigh*
That is kind of the point, though. :-/ Though anyone compared to the Beast is a child! Even the Doctor.
And the word `child` was precisely chosen to get under her skin.
Oh yes. There's nothing worse than being patronised by your enemy.
Reposted as a separate comment because it's an awesome article:
http://www.dailycognition.com/index.php/2008/10/2…
Fuck, I love science.
Ooh, thanks for the article! Very interesting.
On a related note, may I recommend "Packing for Mars" by Mary Roach. It's a fascinating and very funny look at the realities and trials of space travel as of today. It's really interesting to see how unlike the space travel we see in sci-fi the current reality is. Not that we can't enjoy the sci-fi, of course, but it makes the sci-fi seem even more wild.
Also, possibly the only book I've ever read whose footnotes made me laugh out loud.
I love Mary Roach for her footnotes. 🙂 Stiff is a good one as well.
Yeah, Stiff is my favorite of hers, I think, but I've read all of her books. I literally squeed with excitement when I saw she had a new book out. The benefits of being a librarian: I often get hold of new books very quickly and easily!
Benefits of working at a book store – so do I! 😀 I get very excited when she brings new books out, though I was very upset that the timing was very poor on the chapters about motion sickness and the like – I reached those when I was on lunch break. :/
Packing for Mars was FANTASTIC. Seriously, how can you not love a writer who is so concerned about how you poop in space? I just love Mary Roach in general, really.
Hah! So Enterprise was right! Go them for making me question the length of time someone could spend in space.
A second part that is JUST AS SATISFYING AS THE FIRST PART.
I remember being let down because the first part was SO AWESOME, but it's been a while. Let's see what you thought.
Hm, I think maybe your minor complaint re: the Ood was my major complaint and overshadowed the rest of it. I wasn't as taken in by the philosophical Satan, I suppose.
Without spoiling it for those who haven’t watched it, was anyone else reminded of the last season of LOST while watching “The Satan Pit”?
Well, no, because it hadn't happened yet. Or maybe it HAD happened already. MAYBE IT HAD ALWAYS HAVE HAPPENED…ed.
"Well, no, because it hadn't happened yet. Or maybe it HAD happened already. MAYBE IT HAD ALWAYS HAVE HAPPENED…ed."
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Oh Lost, how I miss crowding round the laptop with my sister for our weekly headscrew and frantically trying to guess/understand what was going on.
That's from the hilarious Entertainment Weekly videos, right? Oh man, those were great. "What's with all the touching, Jacob?"
So is Jacob the Doctor?
Yes. I love it so much. I'm tempted to track it down and rewatch it again. Mind you I could watch a whole series of nothing but Jacob and MIB, done for a joke or not.
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Jacob as the Doctor is interesting. I think there are some parallels there.
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They're all Timelords 😛
"They're all Timelords 😛 "
I love playing this game with other media sources.
My favorite? Ms. Frizzle and her Magic School Bus.
James Bond has to be a Time Lord. How else would he go about changing his face all the time? And the not aging after almost 50 years?
WHO ELSE…? WHO….. SOMEONE ELSE. WHO WAS THAT.
Mary Poppins has a bag that's bigger on the inside.
How very Billy Pilgrim of you. rofl
Oh my god. I am a first time viewer with Mark. I LOVED THIS. So far this twosome is my favorite episode(s) by far. I love how well the characters are developed. I love that it is haunting and terrifying and humorous AND raises big questions for you to ponder ponder ponder no matter what you believe personally. It's fantastically done. I love it. And I really love reading your reviews, Mark. I'm so glad I'm finally caught up with you 🙂
I thought the same as you on my first watch. Absolute same.
I don't know if I'm a Rose/Ten shipper or not (I tend not to ship the Doctor with anyone), but I do know that I LOVE ROSE TYLER. Seriously, seeing her come into her own in Series 2 is amazing, and even more evident now that I'm rewatching the episodes in order. It used to be that I'd just pick and choose whatever I felt like watching, and this is the first time I've watched them from beginning to end since the first time. Rose is just…gah, she's fantastic, and flawed, and fabulous all at the same time. I think that's why I like her so much. She has layers, like an onion.
She has layers like a parfait. The Doctor has layers like an onion. 😉
I love this episode because up to this point, we've seen the Doctor handle every situation and have an answer to every question. But in this two-parter, he's faced with something he doesn't quite understand. But he does understand that whatever it is in the pit, he has to stop the creature. And that's all that counts. The Doctor doesn't (and by extension, neither do we as the audience) need a concrete explanation of the Beast – whether it's Satan, when it was sealed in the pit or who even did it. He does hang on to what he knows and that enables him to defeat the creature and save Ida, Rose and the rest of the crew.
This may be a controversial statement, but speaking as someone who considers religion a big part of her life, there's a lot in this episode that rings very true to me and I love it (and the fantastic storytelling and intensity of the pacing doesn't hurt either).
I consider myself spiritual, and I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I think this episode treated a possibly tricky subject very well. Faith and community versus fear and discord rings true independent of religious connotations, and the expanse, the wonder that Doctor Who involves fits well with the idea, like the Doctor says, that we haven't seen everything.
This episode hit all my favorite sci-fi tropes PLUS my love of reinventing myths and religion. It kind of reminds me of Seasons of Passage by Christopher Pike.
I thought of another series you could read: The Tomorrow Series by John Marsden. It's about WWIII and a group of teenagers in Australia fighting back. I haven't read it yet, but it comes highly recommended by an Aussie friend of mine and I've seen the movie for the first book (Tomorrow, When the War Began). They're kind of hard to come by in the States, but maybe you'll have more luck in San Francisco. I was able to find them at the library, but not any stores.
Mark, if you choose to read the Tomorrow series I will post the damn things to you. Fantastic YA series – although if you're looking to get out of YA for the time being, maybe a little further down the track?
"I get how Toby’s body gets sucked outside, but should the rest of them have suffocated?"
A metal emergency hatch swiftly closed to replace the window, and that let the atmosphere be restored. it's easy to miss.
I didn't miss it. It didn't seem THAT swift.
Suspension Of Disbelief and Rule of Rose Being Awesomely Cool is my personal excuse. =D
Oh lord, I just realized what the next episode is. Mark, You Are Not Prepared.™
In the words of Monty Python: "And now for something completely different.` 🙂
Well, I'll be interested to see his review, to say the least…..very interested.
"…oh, she knows." OH MY HEART! OH! OH! *wibblyflailyhands* I don't know whether to weep or cheer. I love them both so much, and I love them even more together. YES I AM A SHIPPER AND PROUD OF IT. Doctor/Rose OTP!
Don't have much to say beyond yay, this is such a great two-parter, and personally I thought "The Doctor Dances" was also a really satisfying part two.
Oh, and OOD RIGHTS! I mean, glad they were recognized at the end, but come on, they still didn't get names, and they are SO TOTALLY A LIFEFORM, DAMMIT. We really do need a SPOW.
Friends of the Ood!
The Ood are like the House Elves of the Whoniverse.
But with better clothes. Marginally.
Except much, much creepier. I know Kreacher's creepy but the Ood are still scarier, to my mind.
You, and this comment, are made of win.
At an early draft stage, this 2-part story was to feature a number of Slitheen from Raxacoracofallapatorius. However, following discussions with Millennium Effects, if became apparrent that they could make ten latex masks for brand new creatures for the same cost as refurbishing the Slitheen costumes. In total contrast to the Raxacoracofallapatorians, Davies decided to give these new creatures the simplest name possible. Thus the Ood were born.
Oh god, I can't tell you how glad I am that they created the Ood instead of bringing back the Slitheen. I am not a fan of the Slitheen.
That…is really fortunate.
I imagined that they were named Ood just because of how odd they were. The odd Ood. I can't stop saying that. Odd Ood, Odd Ood. It's also a good name for a band.
I hope you don't mind an excerpt from The Writer's Tale concerning rewrites on this two-parter, cause I think it quite interesting.
(General information on the book: It consists of very open and honest emails RTD exchanged with Doctor Who Magazine writer Benjamin Cook during the production of series 4 – plus later episodes in the second edition subtitled "The Final Chapter".)
At one point RTD has a rant about how much he hates dream sequences and goes on to say:
———-
Matt Jones fell foul of this on The Impossible Planet. The cliffhanger ended with Rose being possessed by the Devil – her eyes went black and she said, 'I am the Beast Incarnate' or something. It was wonderful – but then the next episode opened on the Tylers' estate. Back home with Jackie and Mickey, but a strangely different Jackie and Mickey, doing mysterious things, speaking with the wrong voices, being generally spooky, because, well, it was a dream. Inside Rose's head. I simply couldn't bear it. I was convinced – I'm still convinced – that nothing of any dramatic merit can happen in a dream sequence. So out it went.
I simply couldn't bear it. I was convinced – I'm still convinced – that nothing of any dramatic merit can happen in a dream sequence. So out it went.
That's… really interesting considering a certain episode.
*is dying to know what you mean by interesting*
Can't say more without spoiling it. 😉
Umm, YEAH.
But RTD wouldn't have had any say about that…
I think I'll have to disagree with RTD there. I think dream sequences can be very powerful; they can make a character's wants and desires very clear, and if you go for a 'happy dream' you have a wonderful Lotus Eater Machine question.
Not to mention, suspending all laws of physics can make them seriously creepy.
Agreed, and my one word response:
<img src="http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5559/inception.gif">
RTD argues that besides being symbolic instead of real, dream sequences also can't capture how odd and dislocated actual dreams are. I don't I agree with him on the whole but I kind of see his point there and judging from the words above, I think I'm glad he took this one out.
Now what he has to say on … more recent things … I'd like to know, as well.
Rose doesn't bother me as bad in this episode as she usually does, which is a good thing, but her determination to stay on the planet after they tell her the Doctor is dead bothers me. I know some people interpret it as her blind faith in him (being a theme of the episode and all), and that's perfectly fine. But for me, it demonstates a problem I have with most relationships in general, not just fictionally: too often I see people have this "blind faith" in each other and it causes them to act irrationally (which, given that they'd just told her that the Doctor was dead, this can be considered irrational) and lose all sense of self-preservation. Re-watching it, I was struck by how…God, I hate to use this word because I know a million people will descend upon me berating me for it, but how damn suicidal it is. It reads to me more as she simply can not consider existing without him, so she'll just stay there and die, too. And it just further reinforces my distaste for romantic relationships in general, but especially on this show between a Doctor and a Companion.
But how could she ever really be sure that he was dead, considering she knows about regeneration?
Considering that the planet was on the edge of a black hole, it really wouldn't have mattered if he'd regenerated into Eleven. Sure, he'd be alive…right up until the black hole annihilated his entire existence.
I understand many of the complaints people make about Rose, so in this small defense, let me come clean right away by saying that I personally find her flaws…well, necessary. And if not completely endearing, then at least fully realistic and understandable. I also think that part of what rubs people the wrong way about Rose as a companion is that many of her flaws are traits viewers feel least comfortable identifying with themselves – her insecurities about her character and her abilities, her initially blind faith in the Doctor, and her selfish willingness to pack up her life without an obviously clear care about whom she might affect. I can't honestly say that in her position I would have behaved differently, but I'm not entirely proud of acknowledging that fact, either.
In response to your post, however, I wanted to say that Rose has noticeably matured by this point (keeping in mind, she's still 19; even now, just two years later, looking back at 19-year-old me is often cringe inducing), and I don't think that her wish to stay on the planet and wait for the Doctor is entirely so simple as "she cannot consider existing without him"; in my eye, that fits the Rose at the end of Series One a bit better. I see her decision here more as an acknowledgment of the fact that she's traveled so far with the Doctor, she's seen what he's capable of, and she's seen the lengths he'll go to to do what's right (at least, what he believes is right), and although his decisions are often dangerous, he somehow always comes out on top; and the fact that the Doctor will both do what's "right" AND survive is what Rose believes. It's her own little highly personal version of good always wins.
If she had left, it wouldn't have just meant going back to her old life and having to make it on her own, because I think even Rose recognizes she could do that now, and I think she would have even managed it gracefully; it would have meant abandoning the Doctor, perhaps when he needed her most, despite everything she'd seen him do and everything she believed he could do. And I think that there would have been a certain amount of guilt associated with that decision (to cut her losses and run; to let the Doctor take the responsibility and the fall so that she could escape) that Rose decided she wouldn't have been able to accept, no matter how well she fared in whatever the rest of her life brought.
I also think that part of what rubs people the wrong way about Rose as a companion is that many of her flaws are traits viewers feel least comfortable identifying with themselves – her insecurities about her character and her abilities, her initially blind faith in the Doctor, and her selfish willingness to pack up her life without an obviously clear care about whom she might affect. I can't honestly say that in her position I would have behaved differently, but I'm not entirely proud of acknowledging that fact, either.
While I can't speak for other "Antis" as someone so cleverly called us, I can assure you that my distaste for Rose has nothing to do with identifying with her flaws. People call me Spock. As in Mr. Spock, as in Logic and Reason, as in Very Difficult to Form An Emotional Attachment. Trust me, my "Anti-ness" doesn't come from over-identifying. I could get into where it does come from, but frankly, I think we've all had enough of that argument, as it never really gets anywhere and leaves both sides frustrated.
As I said, I realize other people interpret it differently, and to be completely fair, it's possible she was still in the denial stage of grief. But even still, it bothers me and seems too much like having a death wish simply because he might be gone. Everyone else is free to see it however they like, but despite trying, that's the only way I have been able to make that scene make sense to myself.
Pretty much every single moment of this two-parter is awesome. It's so utterly creepy, from the setting to the characters (Toby and the possessed Ood) to the Doctor hanging in complete blackness — what better place to question your philosophy of life? What I particularly liked was that the Beast WAS a nightmarish, horned creature living in a pit but it was also something inside people, the voice over your shoulder. Having it be those two things at once made it worse somehow, even if the creature in the pit was 'empty'.
I also really liked that the Doctor chose to believe in people, specifically Rose, over his own belief of how the universe came to be, etc.
but it was also something inside people, the voice over your shoulder. Having it be those two things at once made it worse somehow, even if the creature in the pit was 'empty'.
I also really liked that the Doctor chose to believe in people, specifically Rose, over his own belief of how the universe came to be, etc.
These two things are wonderfully stated, and I totally agree.
Thanks!
I can't remember where I read this but RTD thought about having the Beast be a little girl. Not sure if that's 100% true but given this show's proclivity for creepy kids it seems likely 😉
I'm glad they didn't – too overused a trope. One of the things I like about Moffat is that he likes putting children in his storylines, but that they're generally not evil, and are often given a lot of respect.
I mean, the Empty Child was creepy and all, but it was the nanogenes who messed with a scared little boy. And then little Reinette was lovely, in my opinion. And…spoilers.
He did consider this, among other options because, basically, the CGI budget had run out. But the clever people at The Mill said that if they scaled back the rocket sequences, the 3D animation artiists could create a suitable Beast.
They created an absolutely suitably amazing Beast. I loved it. Well, actually, it made me want to go, "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!" but that is me.
Well it was an easy choice: more shots of a rocket flying through space or a big, scary beast?
I rarely enjoy a Part 2 as much as a Part 1. Any show I've ever watched that has two-parters, I enjoy the first part a hell of a lot more than the second. This is one of the exceptions. Part 1 was good in a creepy slasher-film way, which was good, and it had the awesomeness of the Ood, which was also good if somewhat disturbing. All too often, especially with Doctor Who, it feels like they write themselves a great cliffhanger for Part 1, only to destroy it within 5 minutes of Part 2. Kind of like they did in Part 1 with the teaser (Ood: We must feed!) and the beginning of Act 1 (You, if you are hungry.) By killing that momentum between episodes, it makes it harder to overlook dropped plot threads and gaping plot holes.
This episode didn't give them an easy way out. Sure, it was just a bit convenient that the TARDIS ended up right where the Doctor could get to it, but if you subscribe to the Sentient TARDIS Theory, that gets the Doctor where he needs to be, it's not too big a stretch to imagine it works both ways. Everything else felt like Rose and the Doctor EARNING their way out of bad situations.
Tell me I'm not the only one who thinks that Rose being possessed would've made the episodes so much cooler?!
You are not alone! Though it depends how they handled it.
Rose was so awesome in this episode, taking charge and Getting Shit Done without the Doctor around, that it's hard to wish something else had happened.
However, I can certainly see the coolness of setting up Doctor vs. "Rose" and seeing the Doctor have to figure out how to unpossess Rose without killing her.
Plus, we knew the TARDIS was down there somewhere having fallen down the drill shaft and the Doctor's primary motivation for going down there was to *find* the TARDIS. So we shouldn't be terribly surprised when he finds it.
I'm not sure I liked these two episodes much the first time I watched them, but I like them more with every viewing. They really are very good, plot- and character-wise. I think my initial dislike was more due to my perference for historical plotlines than anything else. Poor Toby. As an archaeologist, I have some fellow-feeling for him.
Pt. 2 gets rated a 5, with this part being scary to even the littlest kid.
The moment that The Beast shows up has this as what happens with the viewers:
(37) "Oh. Dear. God." says Adam slowly and distinctly. "Exactly. The. Opposite," says Dad.
BUMBUMBUM.
This Tardisode is awake…and you will worship it! (Or not.)
An Ood delivers a metal case to a man, Crewman Curt, telling him that the contents are Captain Walker's belongings. The man tells the Ood to leave and then opens the case. As he does so, the lights go out and the ship's computer states "He shall awake."
The crewman then takes out the notebook and as he thumbs through the pages, the book emits a red light, and the monitors in the room begin to flicker and display the message "THE BEAST IS AWAKE. HE SHALL RISE FROM THE PIT." Then, a lever depresses on its own, and the notebook suddenly bursts into flames in his hands. He runs to the door in fear but the doors will not open, the computer telling him that the door is sealed, followed by a repeated chant of "He is coming. He is coming".
(Split for length)
(Ctd…)
Later, a female colleague (Chenna) enters the room, saying she can smell burning. She finds the Crewman Curt cowering in a chair, silently muttering, with the mysterious writing from the notebook having somehow transferred to his face…
This Tardisode may be a bit confusing because it takes place before the events of The Impossible Planet and lines of dialogue referring to the deaths of previous crewmembers were cut. So we have no way of knowing who they were. (I got their names from DWM.)
'Tell her…Oh, she knows'.
I may have yelled 'OH YOU BASTARD' at my TV at this point. But uh, I may have issues outside of just my Ten/Rose shipping…
Rose is such a BAMF in this episode 🙂
Also, that pic and this line in your review: '(HOW AMAZING DOES THAT SOUND. This episode is like one giant Iron Maiden record.)' made me lol at work.
I'm an anti-Ten/Rose 'shipper, but I have to say, I get your frustration there. I hate those kinds of cheap copouts in televised romance. Just say the words, you jackass. 😛
(I may or may not have this on the brain because of this week's Chuck. ARGH.)
This is my most favoritest two-parter. It's just got it all, you know?
The unorthodox concept of faith as explored here is no surprise considering RTD's atheism. So therefore, the predominant faith that is at work here is not "faith in a being" but rather "faith in a PERSON" (since he believes in no higher beings). It's his personal belief, and I have no comment on that one way or the other — but as far as "faith in a person" goes, there is probably no better vehicle for character depth and exploration than this two-parter. This is why I believe this episode is so popular with both hardcore and casual fans, whether they believe in the Ten/Rose relationship or not. We've seen few episodes so far where the "what-ifs" and introspection of characters is so predominant in the script. Personally, I feel that if it came down to it, you could show someone just this two-parter — and nothing else in Nu Who at all — and they would have a pretty clear read on both Ten and Rose, their interaction, and their innermost thoughts.
Yeah, if someone had never seen Doctor Who before, you could show them this story and they'll be able to learn so much from it in terms of the show's philosphy, the Doctor's character, his relationship with the Universe, the TARDIS and his companions, and what Rose means to him. I think it's the shortest route in order for someone to then watch the story with the Redfern character and really get it as a fan would.
I could gush enthusedly about this episode but I think everyone else has already said most of what I would say. I will add this though:
That moment when the Doctor finds the TARDIS and just looks up at its all-rescuing blueness is marvellous.
And this makes me smile:
Doctor: "Gravity, schmavity. My people practically invented black holes. well, actually they did."
Yes! That box is just so HEROIC. And I kept rewinding that moment for the lovely triumphant musical cue.
OH GOD
The more episodes you watch, the less I feel I can comment, because I don't want to spoil you. I end up typing these epic comments and then backspacing them because I don't want to say anything about anything, even subtly, so I just end up saying "You are not prepared."
Except it's still a legit comment (especially as you get further along with the show), because, seriously,
YOU ARE ACTUALLY, REALLY, GENUINELY UNPREPARED.
and that's all I got to say.
"This is really the only episode that has an overt reference to God. So if this “satan” here is real, is there a God in the Who universe?"
It's up to you. You can believe that the Beast is actually Satan, guardian of Hell, or he's just powerfully telepathic alien who inspired the idea of Satan in humans.
Likewise, you could take the Doctor's claim that he's seen a whole pantheon of "fake gods and bad gods and demi-gods and would-be-gods" to mean that either he's met actual divine beings or, more likely, he's met aliens who give the impression of divinity but are no more god-like that he is. Whether a real God and Heaven exist in the Whoniverse is up to interpretation.
However, the underlying philosphy of the series seems to me to be atheist. RTD is an atheist who is fascinated by the idea of faith (the theme will be explored again in Doctor Who and also in his excellent drama starring Christopher Eccleston called The Second Coming). The idea I get is that gods don't exist, all godliness is attributed by others willing to believe, such as with the Dalek Emperor in The Parting of the Ways or the Doctor himself. The closest you get to a god is Bad Wolf Rose, but the whole point is that she is not a god, she is a shopgirl.
I'm glad you've enjoyed this two-parter so much! Personally, I think The Parting of the Ways and The Doctor Dances also beat the first episode of their stories. Both the Doctor and Rose were on top form in this story and Ida was a great almost-companion. And how stunning was David Tennant in this episode? He can do subtlety and quiet introspection as well as bravura and high-energy antics.
I have ~deep thoughts~ on everyone's arc in this episode and how significant it is for both of them etc etc BUT THE REAL MESSAGE HERE IS THAT I AM SO PLEASED YOU LOVED THIS EPISODE BECAUSE IT KICKS HUGE AMOUNTS OF ASS
ROSE KILLED SATAN
badass for all of time
She also killed an innocent human being (Toby). She had no other choice, and I'm not judging her for it; I think that most people in her position in that moment would've sacrificed him for the greater good. I'm only saying that it can't be ignored.
(And because I am decidedly anti-Rose in my comments, I want to be absolutely clear that I am absolutely not judging her for it. It just makes me think about how someone else pointed out in a previous comment that she's becoming more and more like the Doctor, and it makes me think of the lives he has sacrificed for the greater good, as well. Specifically, it makes me think of his killing the Cybermen, and how he apologized sincerely as he watched them die. Rose doesn't show that remorse here. It's interesting. Again, to be absolutely clear: this is not meant as an anti-Rose comment, but merely something I noticed upon re-watch that caught my attention.)
I would argue that the blame for that rests on Satan/whatever entity that was possessing him.
Oh, I know. I'm not saying she was wrong to do it at all. It needed to be done. I was just pointing out that in "killing Satan", she also killed an innocent human being that was inside there, much the same as Ten killed the innocent people who had been turned into Cybermen. They each had to, because of what was inside the innocent person/what the person had become, it just seemed like an interesting parallel to me.
I think it's ridiculous you have to clarify what you meant – your first post was perfectly clear you weren't blaming her.
I'm just trying to make sure that what I say isn't misinterpreted unintentionally. One of my threads on a previous post got really ugly and I'd like to avoid that again, if possible, so I've been going out of my way to be civil and explain what I mean in clear terms so there isn't a misunderstanding since. Especially since I have made it clear I don't care for Rose, I want to make sure no one is assuming that I'm going, "Rose killed someone! Bad Rose!" Because that's not what I meant. It's better to be overly-clarified than to have a misunderstanding and start a fight.
I sort of agree, but I think by the time Rose actually pulls the trigger, Toby — his… soul, or essence, or mind, or what have you — is long gone.
There are definitely a lot of innocent deaths that accompany the Doctor's misadventures, though. LOL There's a video on youtube somewhere that counts every death from s1 through the end of s4, it's pretty great. The number is in the hundreds.
Yes. I see Toby as being dead the moment he is fully possessed.
I think the point about her becoming more like the Doctor is a good one. I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but I really, really like it. She's definitely an interesting character, and has one of the more convoluted growths of any character on DW. And I think Ten's sacrifices are usually kind of horrible, which may explain part of why I side-eye Rose's character progression by this point in S2. Which, I'll probably talk more about post S2.
And I can empathize with you about needing to disclaim that an opinion that is not OMG SQUEE about Rose is not anti-Rose or -RTD. Which is unusual for me, cause the parts of DW fandom I've hung out in have not been so heavily populated with big Rose fans.
cause the parts of DW fandom I've hung out in have not been so heavily populated with big Rose fans.
Heh. That's probably because most of us Rose fans (me and my friends at least) tend to stick to ourselves in our own corner of fandom because we got sick of all the shit she gets in main fandom. lol.
But weirdly enough in the non-fandom world, Rose is really popular. She was ranked #1 in a poll of favorite companions of all time that Radio Times did this past autumn, but if you did a poll in an online fan community, I have a feeling that would not be the case at all.
Heh. That's probably because most of us Rose fans (me and my friends at least) tend to stick to ourselves in our own corner of fandom because we got sick of all the shit she gets in main fandom. lol.
THIS. SO HARD. Rose is my favorite companion, along with a noble woman and a patient man, so I pretty much accept that haters gonna hate and continue on loving Rose far away from the haters.
But weirdly enough in the non-fandom world, Rose is really popular. She was ranked #1 in a poll of favorite companions of all time that Radio Times did this past autumn, but if you did a poll in an online fan community, I have a feeling that would not be the case at all.
I remember that. The rage was embarrassing to witness, really.
we got sick of all the shit she gets in main fandom. lol.
if you did a poll in an online fan community, I have a feeling that would not be the case at all.
See for me, my history with Rose fans tends to be what ended up on fandom_wank, and the Rose fans ended up on there a lot. So I think a lot of online fans who aren't big Rose fans have a reactionary POV where they know of fandom history and are influenced by those big wanks caused by irrational Rosefen. I compared Rose/Ten shippers to Harry/Hermione shippers before, in the sense that a lot of fandom tries to stay away from places/ship they've known to be wanky in the past.
That's my asessment, anyway. That of modern DW ships, Rose/Ten is the wankiest, and fandom reacts accordingly.
I often feel like there was some kind of mythical group of Ten/Rose shippers who were totally crazy or something, but then vanished before I got into fandom, because of the Ten/Rose shippers I've known — and there are many — probably like 95% of them have been totally reasonable people who like other companions and everything, contrary to popular belief. But I DO see a very vocal section of fandom that hates Rose and Ten/Rose and anyone who ships Ten/Rose, based on… fandom_wank entries from four years ago, or something, I dunno.
Pretty much this.
When I first got into DW back in spring 2010, I was a little leery because of what I'd seen on fandom secrets, but overall I've found the Doctor/Rose shippers (Nine/Rose, Ten/Rose, Eleven/Rose, 898th Doctor/Rose, WHOEVER) to be very friendly and welcoming and sane and lovely.
I distinctly remember some Rose/Ten shippers hating on the companion that came after her, and I remember being really pissed – so I've engaged with your "mythical group". And S3 in general grated on my nerves regarding Rose – not necessarily Rose fans, but the writers, or at least RTD.
So for me at least, I just got tired of hearing how special Rose was. And it's not like discussion about Rose stopped after we got a new companion. Or another new companion. So it isn't just stuff from four years ago.
And fandom in general tends to be petty – what's new.
I don't hate Rose, but she's not my favorite and I don't ship it. I don't like people who judge based on who someone's favorite companion or ship is, but I don't see much of that here.
So I think we're in this interesting situation where Rose fans feel the need to defend her due to history with fandom, and non-Rose fans feel like, oh it's this all over again due to history with fandom. Everyone feels a bit defensive.
THIS. SO MUCH. Like…yeah, pretty much everything you said. +1 to infinity
I think for me a large part of it is that, speaking as someone who likes Rose, you often run into this attitude of like "how dare you still like and talk about Rose! ROSE FANS NEED TO MOVE ON/LET IT GO/WHATEVER" which… okay? I mean, I can appreciate that if you don't like Rose you don't want to talk about her, but by the same token people who do like Rose are going to want to talk about her and I don't like the way certain segments of fandom try to act like this is terrible and bad and wrong. Most of the time we keep to our little corner anyway, since we're well aware that the rest of fandom has publicly disowned us.
Everyone feels a bit defensive.
I think that's absolutely true. I don't think we've been too wanky here so far, though there has been some strong disagreement. I'm hoping at least that everyone still feels welcome and able to post their opinions.
For me, it's the other way around. I got sick of all the bashing I got any time I tried to say I didn't like her, so I avoided fandom altogether until the Moffat-era rolled around. I was completely unaware that anyone still actually liked RTD after what he did to a certain noble companion until Mark started posting his reviews of DW and I saw people spouting praise for RTD. Probably for the best that I avoid the pre-Moffat era fandom since I disagree with nearly everything it has to say.
ABSOLUTELY THIS. I basically quit participation in online Who fandom after I posted the introduction to a Doctor/Rose fic and had The Wrath Of The Antis rained down upon me. I didn't even know there were anti-Rose fans before my inbox exploded that day.
The really sad thing is that it was marked in the summary, so all those angry people could have gone right past it without bothering themselves. Instead, they decided I needed to be Educated About Rose or something, and I got an inbox full of RAEG.
To be honest, I'm usually not a big Rose fan and I loathe RTD entirely, and I think I've said some fairly vehement things about both. But in this particular case, I merely find it interesting on an intellectual level and I don't judge her for what she did. I just think it's interesting to see her do this in light of what someone had said about her becoming more like the Doctor. I didn't really think they had a point until I thought about that moment and then I realized that it was exactly what Ten would've done–and what that means for her as a character. It's simply…interesting, is all. No hate was intended at all!
I'm actually not sure Toby was really in there anymore. Rose definitely killed his body, but I think the Beast had… displaced his soul or mind or whatever you want to call it well before that. It did say that if he turned around, he would die, and one of the Beast's specialties seems to be horrible half-truths. Just my theory, of course.
Yeah this is how I read it, what was really Toby has been gone for a long time before Rose finally kills the body.
It seemed to me that, given earlier when we saw possessed!Toby and then it left him, that he was still there underneath the possession, and the demon could've left him (but it wouldn't have). But again, I don't judge her for it, so it doesn't really matter to me if he was in there or not. I just find it interesting in light of an earlier comment about her coming more like the Doctor, when I think back to the Cybermen.
I agree. This episode is amazing on so many different levels, and to me, shows how much Rose has grown as person in her time with the Doctor. Not that she wasn't a strong and independent person before, but she's gained so much confidence within herself and how she handles herself. It's so impressive and apparent in this two-parter.
I MEAN, RIGHT? SHE KILLS SATAN? BAMF IF THERE EVER WAS ONE.
I agree with everything you said. Rose was really fantastic in this episode (and in TSP) and the leadership she shows is great. She's grown a lot from when she first saw her in "Rose" and I've loved her arc.
I thought Ten's faith in her was a great moment for him: after everything he's seen and done in his 900+ years, he can say with absolute certainty that he believes in Rose.
Definitely two of my favorite episodes of DW, ever.
Let me rephrase that. The only non-fiction book whose footnotes have made me LOL ;-).
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You said that one of your favorite images was of the Doctor just before he takes his leap of faith.
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/272/c/f/th…
Some nice fanart for you (not done by me, I am not that good)!
I opened it in a new tab, then got distracted by something. Then went to the unread tab, and looked and briefly couldn't remember why I opened it.
AND THEN I WENT HOLY SHIT THOSE AREN'T SCREEN CAPS – damn, that is some serious skill right there.
After reading your review of the last two episodes I have to say I have a new found appreciate for these episodes. I've never been big on the whole Satan as a baddie thing. It just seems ridiculous. I don't know, is it weird that I can think the Ood are believable but include one thing from the bible and I'm a total skeptic?
I actually prefer a Whoniverse with no god – there are beings with god-like powers, sure, and have been since the old series, but the whole notion of THE DOCTOR VERSUS SATAN really turned me off of this, unfortunately. RTD is really fixated on religious themes for an atheist, and heaven knows he finds many, many ways to explore the subject over his run on Doctor Who without actually bringing frickin' proto-Satan into it. (Think of the god of the Daleks in "The Parting of the Ways", for a start.)
As soon as S2 Rose isn't standing next to the Doctor, she remembers her agency. So hurrah for separating those two for a while. And Ida is one of the really great one-off characters, who in Tennant's run tend to be women over thirty – Sarah Jane, Mrs. Moore…anyway, Ida stands with them as someone I really enjoyed spending a story with. Doctor Who is the reason why I don't have any mercy for shows that can't develop their characters over the course of several episodes, or even seasons. If Who can make a character seem like a person you might know after just one episode, there's really no excuse for a failure to do so with a greater span of time.
I'm back from my (AWESOME) Nicaragua trip with only one thing to say: I missed my Raggedy Doctor!!!!!!
Please reconsider your comment–we're in the middle of series 2, with David Tennant as the Doctor and the Spoiler Policy is in effect for all future series…es.
Anyway. Welcome back for non-spoilery fun! Glad your travels were safe and awesome!
I didn't think that a nickname would be considered spoilery. Sorry.
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