In the fifth episode of the second series of Doctor Who, our travelers become stranded in an alternate universe with a broken TARDIS. When they split up to explore this strange world, they stumble on a devious plan and an old foe. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to watch Doctor Who.
Ok, let me first get the most obvious thing out of the way: BARTY CROUCH, SR. AND BARTY CROUCH, JR. WERE BOTH IN THE SAME EPISODE. How distracting was this??? Oh god, when they interact in the next episode, I’m just going to assume Tennant will start doing that weird tongue thing. That’s fair, right?
Also GODDAMN IT, I HATE WHEN I AM WATCHING A TWO-PARTER AND HAVE NO IDEA. But I suppose that telling me that ahead of time ruins the suspense, so I’m just being silly.
I liked “Rise of the Cybermen.” Want to hear me repeat myself? The emotional moments of Mickey and Rose, as they confront their parallel-universe-counterparts, are far more interesting to me than the plot. IT HAPPENS. It’s Doctor Who. The show isn’t really about dense and complex plotting. It’s about the Doctor and the people he takes with him.
I have always liked Mickey as a character and loved the chance to learn more about his life here in “Rise of the Cybermen,” but if you follow me on Twitter, then you also know that this is the episode that I also developed a strange attraction to Noel Clarke. Was it the haircut? Was it him being half naked? Was it the scowly alternate version of himself? WHO EVEN KNOWS. I have decided to embrace this bizarre crush because I NEVER GET TO DO THIS IN REVIEWS, so there. DILL WITH IT.
Comic books are what initially got me obsessed with the concept of parallel universes. Despite being written recently, I’ll still defend House of M done by Marvel as one of the best comic series ever written. Has a parallel universe ever been so fascinating and so tragic? But a combination of comic books and The Twilight Zone both gave me a healthy interest in the concept. It’s just like my love for time travel: once you include parallel worlds in a story line, you’ve got my attention. (Thank you, Fringe.)
It’s not really so much that “Rise of the Cybermen” does things differently from any other form that’s tackled the idea, but writer Tom MacRae is clever enough to make us laugh, wince, and feel sad for what this parallel world brings out in Rose and Mickey. After discovering a method to recharge a lone power cell over the course of 24 hours, Mickey separates from Rose and the Doctor when he realizes that it is possible that his grandmother might still be alive. It was uncomfortable to deal with, but I’m glad MacRae addresses the fact that Mickey is constantly left out of things. Obviously, the Doctor and Rose are going to have a close relationship because they’ve been traveling together for some time now; I don’t think Mickey ignores that. But he still can’t escape the feeling that even though he’s now a companion, he’ll never be able to compete with the Doctor for Rose’s attention. And I don’t even think that’s an entirely irrational thought. Could you compete with an alien who can travel through all space and time in a police box?
I wasn’t surprised that the Doctor stuck with Rose while she visited her father’s house, since her father never died in the alternate universe. It would have been neat to see the Doctor and Mickey interact more, but Rose has a tendency to…well, she fucks things up. She’s going to see her family, possibly even herself, in this alternate universe. I would probably go with her too.
The character development given to Mickey in “Rise of the Cybermen” concerns the fact that his single mother couldn’t really raise him, so he was raised by his grandmother, who tragically died five years before. It is simply too tempting for Mickey not to see if she is alive, so he goes to visit her. And not only is she alive, but she calls him something very specific: Ricky.
Ricky. Wait a second, isn’t that the exact name that the Ninth Doctor INSISTED Mickey actually was?
In the alternate world, Mickey is actually Ricky. And still alive. And Ricky’s friends come to “retrieve” him so they can continue to spy on John Lumic, the owner of Cybus Industries, WHO IS TURNINGÂ HOMELESS PEOPLE INTO ROBOT THINGS. Ok, look, I’m new to this, so until the end, I had no context for the Cybermen returning to Doctor Who. It wasn’t until they electrocuted THE PRESIDENT that I thought, “OH. I SHOULD BE AFRAID OF THESE THINGS.”
I’m ahead of myself. Let’s talk about Rose’s adventure. I mean, we have to state the best part: ROSE IS A DOG IN THE ALTERNATE UNIVERSE. I can understand why she doesn’t think it’s funny, but I, like the Doctor, burst out laughing as soon as I saw that Rose was a terrier in this world. That being said, watching Rose interact with yet another version of her family isn’t pleasant at all. You know, after the events of “Father’s Day,” I figured that Rose would be done trying to see her family in alternate scenarios. She was subject to a lot of heartbreak in that episode, especially when she learned that her family was not as happy as she had been told.
Here, we see yet another version of that mistrust and ire, as Peter and Jackie are, again, experiencing relationship problems. They’ve separated in this world and when Rose tries to intervene, she’s met with indifference in her father and nothing but righteous anger from Jackie. I’m curious why Rose feels the need to “fix” her family over and over again. I know a lot of you referred to Rose’s selfish nature in the comments of my last review, and I think that might be at work here. She does want her mom and Peter to be happy, but I think there’s a selfish motivation to it, too. It helps her. It makes her feel better about herself. She can’t seem to resist meddling, even with the best of intentions, and I sort of wish she wouldn’t, only because the inevitable heartbreak in this episode is even worse the second time around.
So, I haven’t much commented on the actual PLOT here. I feel like the second part of this story will address that more and I’m ok with that. They’ve set up a pretty decent emotional ground that should pay off in part two, so now I’m more interested in what Barty Crouch is planning with the Cybermen. I mean Lumic. How did he get them? Why are they so terrifying to the Doctor? Are we going to find out why the Ninth Doctor insisted that Mickey was actually Ricky?
THOUGHTS:
- “You’re a very smart man. I’d call you genius except I’m in the room.”
- The Cybermen’s cry of DELETE reminds me too much of EXTERMINATE. Actually, it even sounds a lot like that voice too.
- The only really scary thing in this episode is the Doctor surrendering and the Cybermen ignoring it. FUCKED UP.
- I’m sorry, but WHAT PERSON WOULD GET INSIDE THAT SKETCHY TRAILER FOR FREE FOOD? No one. NO ONE EVER. Seriously, that scene was laughable.
- “Why no emotion?” “Because it hurts.” The Doctor gets goth on us!
- EarPods. It’s not a stretch to think of iPods, right?
- Zeppelins and Fringe. That is all I will say for those who will get that.
- Ok, so we hear Torchwood again in this episode, once during the news report and once from Pete. Torchwood exists in the parallel universe too??? How is that possible when the Doctor only exists in one world and essentially caused its creation?
… anyone else amused by how fast Ten's sadpants-face disappeared between the end of GITF and now? The whole arm around Rose, cuddling, giggling, inside-joking, not-a-nanosecond-of-emo-face-ing within the first 5 seconds we see him? Ten is, shall we say, easily distracted by shiny objects, and just as easily distracted back.
(I obviously didn't mention that yesterday because of spoilers, but it's hard to have seen this episode and hear "love" mentioned in reference to GITF — "In Love!! IN LOVE?? He forgets about her 100% **completely** within basically no time at all!!!")
(I'll save any real comments about this episode til the end of the 2-parter since discussing 2-parters with no spoilers is next to impossible for me, especially when I've seen them as many times as I've seen this one!! XD)
Just a quick point… we don't know how much time has actually passed. There are adventures that happen off-screen and either we get to hear about them only by reference (from what I remember the one they're laughing about at the start is one of those) or in book / game / comic format.
Nah … as we know, Ten has a ten-dency to be very emo over things that upset him (my husband's nickname for him is "Teary Toothy Tennant" for a good reason!!), and important things from previous Nu Who episodes are almost **always** subsequently referenced.
That's all I can say without spoilers, and you know it =P
Well, I'm able to get around the sudden emotional change in several ways.
1) We have no idea how much time takes place between episodes. For most seasons there's a long line of novels that tell the adventures the have in-between the episodes, so for all we know, it may have been weeks for the Doctor.
2) The Doctor did only know her for a few hours, his time. Yes, she still died and he had romantic feelings for her; but she did live until 37, and its difficult to muster up long lasting grief for someone you knew only briefly. Especially if you're 900+ years old, since it must seem ever shorter for him.
3) I think the Doctor's gotten a bit use to shoving away the grief, both of humans leaving him and the Time War.
1) Important things from Nu Who eps are almost always subsequently referenced…
2) Agreed .. like I told someone else, GITF in a way is a counterpoint to School Reunion, with both Reinette and Sarah Jane waiting for him, but Reinette's life on fast-forward, illustrating how humans decay and how it can hurt him to allow himself to care
3) Not agreed at all
Ugh. Such a disappointment this episode. It just feel a bit lazy somehow, the TARDIS dropping out of our universe for… well, no reason really. The Doctor magically finding a powercell that was still working then somehow recharging it with his own life-force. The Cybus Network REALLY bugs me as a tech geek because it crosses the line from advanced technology to magic which doesn't fit in at all with the 'it's our world but slightly different' theme. Granted it's needed for the plot but yeash. Oh and that cliffhanger… oy vey. "Maximum Deletion" is TERRIBLE dialogue and for that matter, why did Mr Cyberman feel the need to make a big ol' speech there? He certainly didn't when they offed the President.
Worst of all though… the Doctor and Rose are HORRIBLE here. The Doc first, his ignoring Mickey is terrible and totally out of character with the growing respect between the characters over the last year and a half (let's not forget that Nine offered to take him along after WW3). But that's eclipsed by the return of the whiny selfish annoying and utterly unlikeable version of Rose. I just want to smack her upside the head here and go 'do you remember what happened the LAST time you insisted on seeing your dad? You killed the Doctor, a load of innocent people and you would have been Reapernoms yourself if your dad hadn't proved to be a far better person than you. ' Now here she's doing EXACTLY the same thing again, hasn't learnt a thing and is clearly thinking she can be the daughter they don't have. INCREDIBLY arrogant and self-obsessed, utterly manipulative of the Doctor, absolutely HORRIBLE to Mickey (again… ) and just totally unlikeable. Her interaction with Pete and Jackie is just painful to watch, she's dealing with them as if they're her actual parents when she KNOWS that's not the case/ Rose surely isn't meant to come across as this dim?
That being said there is a bit of good here. Lumic chews the scenery like Brian Blessed after a hunger strike but it's a fun character (and it's Trigger from Only Fools and Horses! Yay!). Pete Tyler (and his actor whose name escapes me, sorry) proves, again, to be interesting and a great natural progression from the character we saw in Father's Day. And the Doctor and Mickey work very well together when Rose isn't around to turn the Doc into a drooling fanboy. Oh and the Zeppelins were a nice touch.
There's one other thing I really want to talk about here and that's the cybermen but after some thought… I'll leave that until the next episode for fear of spoilers. I do like the redesign from the classic series, it's a nice bit of modernisation, and the voices are good (all hail Nick Briggs) and they look terrifying in the flesh, uh, metal (saw them at the Doctor Who live show this year in a dark arena lit by spotlights… creepy!).
"The Doc first, his ignoring Mickey is terrible and totally out of character with the growing respect between the characters over the last year and a half"
… 2 episodes back Ten called Mickey a little girl with pigtails XD I hardly call that respect!
"You killed the Doctor, a load of innocent people and you would have been Reapernoms yourself if your dad hadn't proved to be a far better person than you."
Oh please, the entire situation was Nine's fault. He was the Time LORD, knew the rules of time. What does he do? Brings a teenager to the emotionally volatile death of a parent she had grown to hero-worship, and tells her to stand back and watch him die prematurely. What did he think was going to happen?
Yes he did indeed call Mickey a girl but there was NO mallace in that at all, normal male ribbing. Simply ignoring him, forgetting him for HALF AN HOUR… no, sorry, that really is terrible.
As for Father's Day, sorry but I've never bought that argument. The Doctor only took her there because she asked, made it VERY clear what she could and couldn't do and expected her to act like an adult. She didn't and by her actions caused the events of that episode. But that really is irrelevant, even if you believe she doesn't have responsibility for her own actions she still DID them, she remembers exactly what happened, why on EARTH wouldn't she take the Doctor's advice to heart this time round?
Where exactly was the part where he made it very clear what she could and couldn't do? Because I don't recall that speech at all.
I have to disagree with your last paragraph. The Doctor does bear some of the fault, because he should have known better, but he is NOT responsible for Rose's actions. She is an adult.
She's nineteen. Legal adult maybe, but still a teenager with all the irresponsibility and immaturity that implies. Lots of nineteen yr olds still have a heck of a lot of growing up to do. They're equally at fault.
Whenever anyone mentions that Rose is supposed to be 19 I'm once again reminded of why Rose& the Doctor don't make sense together. Such an experienced man and such a young, inexperienced girl. There's just something wrong there.
Because that never happens in real life… 😉
Yes, she's young, but this incarnation of the Doctor is young too — he may be 900 years old and sometimes we see that amount of experience, but he is also very much a young, vibrant man who is obviously having the time of his life travelling with Rose. It works, whether we think the age difference is skeevy or not.
at 17 I met a 30 year old and started a relationship. 7 years later I married the dirty old man.
I imagine timelord are a bit better at dealing with age gap relationships, really. After all, when you can live that long, and you are a time traveller, the years between you really become less of an issue.
And, mentally, he seems quite young in this incarnation.
Agreed. I mean, 900 years is a lot to *us* but to him who knows? We don't know how long he could live for, so I think his genuine age/maturity depends a great deal on his incarnation. And this one, as you say, is quite young.
Yes, but by that same standard, the "She's only 19 and not all of the way grown up yet" excuse for her behavior upthread cannot be used. If she's old enough to be in a relationship with a 900-year old Time Lord, then IMO she is old enough to think before she acts.
For the record, before I get tons of down votes, I actually don't hate Rose at all. Even if I did, I shouldn't be down voted for it. Thank you.
I think it can though — I agree she needs to think things through and she could do with a hearty dose of wisdom (wtf hearty dose where is this coming from) BUT if we said everyone had to be perfectly mature before they got into a relationship with another adult then I don't think anyone would be allowed to go on dates anymore. Maybe Professor Dumbledore and Captain Janeway (not together obviously).
Haha! You are right. Actually, Dumbledore is a perfect example of someone really wise and mature who doesn't always make the best emotional decisions.
My first reply hasn't turned up yet, so my apologies if this is posted twice.
So true. WHY ISN'T THERE A DUMBLEDORE IN THE REAL WORLD SIGH.
Totally together! Dumbledore/Janeway slashfic here I come!
😀
well yeah, but people of all ages frequnetly don't. I agree she's selfish and doesn't always think of the consequences, but I would say the same is true of 99% of humanity. We're jus really good at forgetting/pretending we don't.
I just think it would be hypocritical of me to hold someone to higher standards than I manage myself. I am often selfish, or jump into situations unthinkingly because I am a human being and I screw up. Sometimes she could do with a good verbal slapdown, but so could everyone, everywhere, ever.
YES. I keep feeling awful because I know in some of these situations I would be doing the exact same thing. I identify with Rose. It's why I like her so much, and also I think why my family likes her so much (we'd all probably take many of the same actions).
Many of these comments are making me feel almost like I'm that horrible person! Which I know is not what they are saying at all, but it's hard for me not to make that parallel.
For the record, because I am one such person who has been saying terrible things about Rose, at least for me, there's a difference between what I think of fictional characters and what I think of real people. For instance, I like the S4 companion because I think she's what the Doctor needed in his life at that time. So despite her many flaws, she does the Doctor a world of good and for that, I like her. But I wouldn't want her in my life. I'd get annoyed at having her around IRL.
With Rose, it's the opposite. As a character, I've pointed out over and over again that she brings out the worst in the Doctor and he brings out the worst in her. However, if she were a real person, I think she's probably someone I could enjoy sharing a beer and some crisps with. I don't know that we'd be omgbffs, but I wouldn't hate her in real life as much as I do as a character.
So for whatever it may be worth, at least when I say something bad about Rose as a character, please do not take it as a personal attack against you (or anyone else who feels similarly). Fictional characters and real people are two entirely different bags of tricks from a writer's POV and I studied film too hard in college to forget that.
Haha, well. I did not study film. I was a creative writing minor, for all that's worth.
And I know that no one's actually attacking me, so don't worry about it. It was just so hard to come into this with, "Rose is so much like me!" and then see how HORRIBLE and AWFUL Rose is. ;P
But that's my point. Rose isn't doing these questionable things because she's too young, she's doing them because she is a flawed human being. I object to the wiping away of her offenses using the excuse that she is still young, that is all.
Also, 99% of humanity probably isn't being constantly praised as the best person ever.
Yeah that's why the whole Doctor and Rose =Twu Wuv never worked for me. He's old enough to be her grandfather several times over. BFFs, yes, definitely. But in love. . . well, I'm sure Rose is, The Doctor OTOH? Oh he loves her, yes, but in love. I don't think so. Especially in this episode when she wheedles him into going to see Pete with her, it comes across more like a kind adult spoiling a child against their better judgement.
Sorry, but I hate when people dismiss a lack responsible behavior due to age – nineteen is old enough to take responsibility. I'm not even discussing whether or not Rose's actions are defensible, I'm just saying that generally, that sort of excuse grates on my nerves.
I'm only a little bit older than nineteen, but I like to think I'm fairly responsible. Saying being 19 is an excuse is like telling me my own sense of independence and self-sufficiency isn't real, because you know how those young people are.
The guy who shot the US congresswoman? 22. Some people, including the media, have been excusing his actions as he's just a "kid." No, he's not. It's insulting to me and to others to have age be an excuse like that.
And okay, so the recent event I named above has made me more defensive about this position lately, so seeing it now makes me irritable. Bad timing, I guess.
I'm no fan of Rose (as is probably clear to anyone who's read my comments) but even I have to agree with you about Father's Day. Nine KNEW what could go wrong and what the consequences were and he should have either done a better job of explaining them to Rose BEFORE going back the second time or be firm and say no, he wouldn't do it because it would be too hard for her/too risky.
Regardless of whether it was her fault the first time, after you killed the person you admire the most and almost brought about the end of the world the first time around, I think by now she knows enough to at least think twice before messing with people's lives again, especially in this case where the people in question aren't even her real parents, but she didn't. I don't care what age you are, that's a lesson that should stick out in your head.
I think this is more a fact of the writers liking to recycle old themes and ideas than it is about her, though.
I think Pete's actor is called Shaun Dingwall.
That name sounds fake, but you are correct.
And as a side note I had a comment on the first Pete episode when someone brought up the fact that I was glad that Simon Pegg wasn’t able to play the role of Pete. I think Shaun does an incredible job in that episode, but I think he does a better job in these episodes. Also, I really enjoy the arc with Rose’s interactions with him. I feel as though he was able to build on his previous performance without any reference to being Rose’s father. It is a tricky line and I appreciate Shaun’s work.
Is it strange to love someone based on their comments? Because I think I am in love. Agreed on nearly everything. Except that I like the episode okay considering that I pretend most of the Rose years didn’t happen.
Uh no, no it's not… (well what else am I gonna say!?!).
And here's the thing (and I should have made this clear in my OP, sorry)… I don't actually dislike the episode. It's okay, an average Who story that suffers (IMO only of course) from a) coming right after the great School Reunion and the superb in every way Girl in the Fireplace and b) not making enough of the second entry on the all-time best Who villains list. I…. have to not say what I was about to say because it'll spoil something a fair way away. Bugger. Umm, I'll try and remember to reference what I was going to say when I can actually say it and flag that it's what I was going to say now but couldn't but can then when it's not a spoiler anymore. Everyone clear on that? 😉
Do you mean you were at the proms?! I watched that on telly the other day, it was amazing!
Actually I was talking about the live stage show tour they did this year with a whole new plot, new music, specially filmed bits with the Doctor the whole lot.
But now that you mention it, yes we were at the proms as well. Incredible night and while I can't say much for fear of spoiling Series 5 I WILL say that Karen Gillan is a) somehow able to run while wearing six inch heels and a dress with at least a foot of train and b) utterly utterly gorgeous.
I am so jealous of you! I hope you enjoyed it 🙂
I'm so jealous of you right now. I'd love to go see the proms or anything like that but I'm too far away.
I was just watching the Proms a half hour ago, after somehow missing its existence all this time. The timing on this is amazing and I am so jealous!
Karen really is beautiful and I loved her dress so much.
Only seen the 2 Proms events on TV, but I was at the show in Cardiff post Season 2 in 2006 (even crashing my car on the way couldn't dampen my mood) and this year's amazing Live Tour.
Adding to the jealousy that you got to be at the Proms. I saw both versions that were shown on BBC3 (the regular and extended) and it looked amazing. The little skit with Matt Smith was wonderful. I'm hoping (probably in vain) that they'll do another one at some point and that I'll be able to go.
They do them every year during the summer so you never know. The BBC holds a series of concerts called The Proms with an orchestra playing music and for the past few years they've always had a night dedicated to Doctor Who with some of the stars and monsters turning up.
Are they going to put that on dvd, do you know?
"The Cybus Network REALLY bugs me as a tech geek because it crosses the line from advanced technology to magic which doesn't fit in at all with the 'it's our world but slightly different' theme."
Ah, but don't forget, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
God bless Arthur C Clark or was it Einstein or both? I get confused.
One of the last things Arthur C Clarke wrote was the introduction to the book "The Science of Doctor Who" where he said that the way science was presented in the show as fine by him.
That's pretty much how I get by on this show. As far as I'm concerned, the TARDIS, screwdriver and a good 75% of all this tech seems more like magic, not science. 'Smagic', if you will.
Well, yes. The Doctor is a wizard with a magic wand, all things considered. And that's one thing I love about the series– he IS a wizard with a magic wand, but people don't even suspect that could possibly be the case.
I'm going to edit this and say that I said that to my mom and her first reaction was, "NO he's not!" It made me laugh. Really, really, he is.
Yeah that beginning is probably my biggest complaint about the episode. I know it's been theorised that the TARDIS sometimes takes the Doctor/Companions to the most interesting place but having it just FALL out of our world into another for no reason? Very sloppy. At least give us a flimsy reason why that happened.
I have to agree with you about Rose, in particular her (and I'm paraphrasing slightly) line about "They've got a house and money and each other, but they haven't got me" is just so incredibly selfish and inconsiderate.
I would have taken 'Magic Door' at that point…
Heh, I also notice that any comment I make regarding Rose and not liking her (complete with reasons why) get's downvoted at the speed of squee. Funny that… Ah well, such is life.
Yeah I've noticed a bit of a pattern emerging with the way posts get thumbed up or down. I'll leave it at that.
Oh definitely. And it isn't even just against people who are more forceful, for want of a better term, about their opinions. *sigh* But what can you do.
THIS, definitely this. For those of us from Mark Reads HP, BradSmith would have never been appreciated in this environment.
Having come in at the end of those days, and lurked, and read it all from the beginning, I know exactly what you're talking about, and you're right.
I've slowly been making my way through Mark Read HP and from what I've read of the comments you're definitely right. Makes me tempted to keep certain opinions to myself and just focus on the positive but we'll just have to see how it goes.
Not to make it all seem like it was perfect there (Mark mentioned the Great Ginny Weasley debate yesterday, and I can tell you, that got kind of ugly for a minute), but it didn't seem to be as divided as it is here.
I would hate to see you or anyone not be able to express your opinions, so I hope you don't keep them to yourself.
I've only started Half Blood Prince so I'm sure that joy is a head of me.
It definitely makes me more wary of posting certain opinions of mine too, both positive and negative ones. I don't like feeling that way. :/
I already just cancelled a couple of comments. I don't have anything nasty to say but after a while it gets pretty futile getting sucked into the same mega-arguments over and over.
Yeah, it's not only futile, but kind of boring.
Oh please no, don't keep opinions to yourself. Haters gonna hate, who cares about the votes? Focusing on the positive is great but we shouldn't ignore the negative.
It isn't so must the hate because I'm happy to see all the different opinions but I think it's because I had one futile experince a few years ago that's making me extra weary. It'll probably come down to how much I want to deal with those kind of disagreements on a given day.
Ah, yeah. Agreed on that, there are days when the last thing one wants is an internet wank.
Please don't keep your opinions to yourself. It gets really boring when everyone's cheerleading. There's no point in having comments if everyone agrees and talks about nothing.
I think part of it may be because your criticism is rather vitriolic/strident. If you said you just didn't like her I think quite a few here would upvote you, because there's a very mixed reaction to her as a character. And even though I like Rose, I wouldn't downvote based on someone not liking her. I think it's too simplistic to say it's 'shippers' or something.
I'll downvote what I see as vitriolic, violent or unreasoning character hate but never well-thought-out comments on characterisation or plot.
Sometimes you can be a little… strident and reactionary, or seem like you are deliberately reaching for reasons to hate her that don't seem supported by the script to me, but to be honest I just roll my eyes and move on at that point.
Yes, clearly the lack of Rose is the sole reason for their marriage coming apart at the seams.
Sorry Princess, but no, you're not that special. (Though RTD would have us believe otherwise)
It's not true to say there isn't a reason. There's a very specific reason. One that I absolutely can't discuss here, but there is a reason.
There was? I'm apparently unobservant and missed it. NVM me then.
I'm not saying it was in this episode specifically, but a reason does become apparent.
Basically, the things did a thing which caused a big thing and some smaller things which meant the other things could appear. The TARDIS found one of those smaller things and that is why they ended up in the parallel universe.
Clear? 🙂
I think it is sort of hilarious that I know exactly what you mean by that. And thank you, because I never made that connection until now.
*nods*…I…vaguely…maybe…(I'm slightly sleep deprived atm which isn't helping). Is it related to the end of series 2? Or am I thinking of the wrong things?
You're both correct and I think it's awesome that you both got it from all my `things`! 🙂
Yay!
Is it odd I know COMPLETELY what you are talking about?
Take a number and join the queue! 🙂
I'm definitely going to have to come back to this when Mark gets to this point in his viewing schedule!
"They've got a house and money and each other, but they haven't got me" is just so incredibly selfish and inconsiderate.
I don't see it as that. I see it as 'They've still got a house and money and each other, and they're perfectly happy without me.' I don't see it as selfish and inconsiderate any more than just a revelation. I guess in this respect I see her as representing the child watching the show– mirror this on an 11 year old, who suddenly is envisioning his family being perfectly happy without him. You want to be mourned and be remembered and at least have a slightly negative effect on someone with your absence. But in this universe, there is no absence because there never was a presence. It's hard to deal with people going on as though you never existed and being perfectly happy without you.
I guess it's partly the way we interpret it. To me, her delivery and tone felt like she was being selfish in that moment. I agree that there is an element of seeing the people you love carry on without you and being seemingly unaffected by that absence, something which would be painful for anyone, but the way it's phrased coupled with the delivery make the moment selfish in my eyes. My opinion is probably being coloured by my opinion of Rose, this moment just doesn't do anything to change my feelings about her.
That's how I read it too.
"Lumic chews the scenery like Brian Blessed after a hunger strike."
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! *dies*
"BARTY CROUCH, SR. AND BARTY CROUCH, JR. WERE BOTH IN THE SAME EPISODE. "
I KNOW! I am so glad you caught this.
Also, all alternate universes have zeppelins. It is like a rule or something.
"then you also know that this is the episode that I also developed a strange attraction to Noel Clarke. Was it the haircut? Was it him being half naked? Was it the scowly alternate version of himself?"
OMG ME TOO! It was definitely the shirtlessness for me.
I live in constant disappointment at the appalling lack of Zeppelins in our world 🙁
Well there was this little thing known as the Hindenberg disaster . . . so we're probably better off.
I watched GoF after these episodes, so for me it was Lumic and the Doctor being, uh, father and son. Weird.
This definitely is not one of my favorite two parters, although I can't really say why. Just about all I remember thinking the first time I saw this episode was that I was never ever going to be able to wear a Bluetooth without being concerned about my brain being taken over.
"The Cybermen’s cry of DELETE reminds me too much of EXTERMINATE. Actually, it even sounds a lot like that voice too."
Can't even count how many times my friend and I have yelled or texted, "DELETE! EXTERMINATE!" at each other back and forth.
I saw the Rose doggie thing coming to be honest (AND OMG YORKIE) once Jackie started calling her from the stairs. There was no way Alternative Rose was a small child because of those stairs and she wouldn't have been using the voice otherwise. But yeah, I find that funny too.
I DID NOT REALIZE THAT WAS BARTY CROUCH SR. Then again, I only just recently learned that Tennant was Crouch Jr. Dayum.
Hey, wait a sec… that first quote isn't from this episode! Mr Mark sir, are you cheating a bit here?
I believe he is!! Mark how could you?
I'm not entirely convinced by the fifth bullet point either…. *glares*
That is TOTALLY in there. When the Doctor is explaining what the Cybermen are to Rose when they are first confronted, before the President is electrocuted.
Mark, how could you!?
<img src=http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/g600616996.gif>
<img src="http://i54.tinypic.com/2ia3iux.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Do we need to break out the shocked or judging you gifs.
YES. YES WE DO.
<img src=http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/sweetp86/Shocked.gif>
Mine is an evil laugh.
<img src="http://i54.tinypic.com/r2lpbt.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
I bring no gifs but, Black Adder and Community in the same thread? I'm in love! 😀
Complete with Firefly quote too!
I also bring no gifs, but I am shocked and appalled that Mark has broken his own spoiler rules!
<img src=http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b94/vickyvicks/expesion%20icons/HarryPotter-Shock.gif>
<img src="http://i54.tinypic.com/3310nxe.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
(Lost, Community, Blackadder, Harry Potter, Power Ranger. Best gif thread ever.)
Needs more franchises.
<img src="http://oi53.tinypic.com/20926ie.gif">
<img src="http://i54.tinypic.com/25q99ap.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
(I have a great shocked BSG gif but can't use it because of spoilers for when Mark starts watching it.)
"(Lost, Community, Blackadder, Harry Potter, Power Ranger. Best gif thread ever.)"
It really is!
<img src="http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldp6q7VeUl1qaimf2o1_400.gif">
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/332uezr.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
I love everyone posting these gifs. Had some shocking family news last night and these are all providing me with some needed smiles and laughter.
"I love everyone posting these gifs. Had some shocking family news last night and these are all providing me with some needed smiles and laughter."
I am sorry about your news, but I am glad we could help
<img src=http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/chloro.gif>
'My whole brain is crying!'
Thanks
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/20utzb4.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Wait we're meant to be shocked
<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/2w4mrns.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
My reply disappeared. They tend to turn up again in a few minutes though.
Is….
Is that a Smile Time gif!? 8D
It sure is 🙂
Bad Mark:
<img src="http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/vick1986_album/vids/prsm-1.gif">
<img src="http://www.gifbin.com/bin/g66064g6576.gif" />
Anyone else suddenly thinking that "Mark Watches Blackadder" would be awesome??? 😀
Smarter than a fox who's just got a PhD from Cambridge.
I put it on the suggestion page. It would be so much fun.
Really??? It's on the IMDB page for this episode. I use that because it generally has no spoilers.
It's actually from the next episode, IIRC.
IMDB lied to me!!!!
I still have not seen the next episode, but I'm ok with the accusation that I have because we haven't had a GIFSPAM like that in a LONG TIME.
Carry on!
Shame on IMBD!! We should hunt them down!
I'll forgive them because we got an excuse to gifspam out of it, LOL!
I didn't expect so many when I suggested it but still, never enough gifspam!
Yes, we really should be thankful to IMDB.
I fail at GIFs. So instead i shall do my judgy face *judgy face*.
…
I WATCHED THIS AFTER GOF AND NEVER REALIZED THAT WAS BARTY CROUCH SR D: D: D:
Uh. Moving on, A+ use of gifs, I lol'd many times. I really enjoyed this two-parter, but then I love alternate universes too, and there was great character stuff for Rose and Mickey. I really felt for both of them, in particular I winced so hard when alternate!Jackie was horrible to Rose. Sure, she messes things up and probably shouldn't have interfered, but that was way harsh and had to hurt.
Cybermen… yeah, the DELETE thing IS too similar to EXTERMINATE, but I find the very concept of them to be terrifying, I'd never want to be turned into one. Augh. I didn't have any context either, so I had similar reactions to yours.
I never realised the Barty Crouch thing either!
I think I can understand Jackie's reaction from her perspective though. She's only been seperated from her husband for a month and here's some strange young woman she doesn't know feeling the need to comment on the personal life she's been keeping out of the public during a moment when she was trying to get some quiet.
Oh yeah, I definitely understand it from Jackie's perspective too, I just remember her saying some really classist things to her that were NOT cool; or maybe my memory is off.
She did. If I'm remembering correctly she referred to her just being the help, implying that her opinion meant nothing because of her position. Which, obviously, is not a good thing to do.
To me, Jackie's reaction is an affirmation that this is NOT Rose's mother. And despite the fact that for some strange reason Peter feels like he can trust Rose (which may be the same idea of past-Peter trusting Rose), Jackie feels nothing towards Rose. Jackie isn't her mum. Jackie is her employer, and at this point, Jackie is a high-class person. Jackie here is not Jackie there. Rose needed that slap in the face to remind her that this isn't her family.
I never noticed that until just now either. /o
Btw, I was reading through the comments on the last post and noticed your love for PD! 😀 Kristen Chenoweth is basically my favorite person ever. I would give so much for a spin-off Emerson & Olive detective show. I'm assuming you love Lee Pace; if so, you must watch "The Fall". Lee Pace makes me cry in it, it's one of the most visually beautiful films i've seen. I basically rec this movie to as many people as I can, and I couldn't pass up this opportunity. 😀
I am obsessed with PD, yes! 😀 Oh god, I share your love for Kristin Chenoweth, and the NEED for an Emerson/Olive spinoff, that would be so utterly amazing I don't even have the proper words to desc – oh wait, I do, one of Mark's typos from THG sums it up: "a waterfall of win". And yes I do, and oh man, I so need to see that, yes. <3 He is love and win.
I love who you picked up on the Ricky bit immediately, I didn't pick it up on until they explained it.
I hadn't picked on it until I read the review, and I've watched all the New who eps several times. How thick am I?
I got it, because up to that point, every time Mickey had appeared on screen I gleefully called out "Rickey!" (I loved Nine and was still clinging to him a bit)
I nearly fell out of my chair when the duplicate showed up and I was actually right
As you've guessed the Cybermen are yet another Classic Monster, though for the life of me I can't reacall when they first turned up. However, my dad (who saw all the Dr Who episodes when they were first showing) tells me he was always more afraid of the Cybermen than the Daleks. In fact, he used to have a reoccuring nightmare where the Cybermen stole his family.
Oh, Rose, when will you learn not to fuck with alternate versions of yourself/your family? I can see why she does, she's desperately wanted a father figure her whole life. Probably why she runs off with the doctor, you know- and here it's even worse as she's already got to know and love her father in the past, and lost him, and here he is AGAIN and her mum and it could all be so *perfect*.
ANd there's Micky, wanting his Gran, so both of the poor sods just want their families, just want to belong.
The Cybermen first turned up in the final story of the First Doctor known as The Tenth Planet. Sadly the last episode of that story has been "deleted" (pun intended) only the actual regeneration still exists. (only back then it was rejuvenation)
And they are way creepier than the Daleks (stupid pepperpots who say all their plans out loud instead of just transmitting messages or radioing each other?). They are a dying race out to replenish their numbers at any cost and don't really care how or who they "recruit". Anyone seen that concept art for the Cybermen redesign that they didn't end up using because it was "too much"? The dessicated head with the speaker jammed right into the throat so it looks like it's constantly screaming?
Yep and they were right not to use that one methinks… That said Tomb of the Cybermen is pretty damn creepy thanks to the voices! And if you get the chance check out Spare Parts from Big Finnish Audio, that's just shiver central.
Spare Parts is great! Just recently listened to these series for the first time, they really surprised me with their quality (well, most of them anyway, there's a few clangers!)
Yeah they could've gone too far but the problem with this design is that the cybermen look like robots that happen to be shaped like humans when they're supposed to be humans that have "enhanced" themselves. Often a man in a suit is seen as a weak monster design but with the cyberman the man in a suit effect is what makes them creepy in the first place and they've taken that element nearly completely out of the picture.
Oh god yeah, before they looked like guys wearing asbestos suits seared or pressed into their skin and they had creepy sing song voices and moved awkwardly as hell. Creepy. The redesigns just look like 1950s generic brand robots with handlebars for no reason (other than to look like the real universe Cybermen)
Ooooooh! I think I would have been more creeped out by that! I have seen the old photos of the cybermen and thought 'Those are supposed to be robots with human brains? That looks awful!'. But you're saying they're supposed to look more like Borg, yes? I would have been a happier more scared person if they had evolved into Borg rather than robots.
I have not seen that! do you have a link, anywhere? It sounds far too much, even for a series that makes a point of traumatising children.
There's this by Peter McKinstry:
<img src="http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5003/who210.jpg">
It's from his series two concept art, which you can see here:
http://www.petermckinstry.com/page11.htm
(SPOILERS if you haven't seen the whole series)
The site also contains concept art for series 3-5, Torchwood and the most recent Harry Potter films, among other things. It's really interesting.
Oh dear god, nightmares forever. At the same time, thank you for the link. I've been ploughing through the galleries and there's some really amazing pieces in there.
That is REALLY NEAT and so much more terrifying than what they went with. There's a few more things in there– like the eye-onna-stalk from TGiTF– that would have been so much more terrifying if they had used them. Although I do have to say I am glad they went with the wolf-like wolf instead of Peter's wolf.
Pictures of the Cybermen, through their history before this episode:
"The Tenth Planet", 1st Doctor, 1966
<img src="http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5408/cybermen1.jpg">
<img src="http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8956/cyberman1a.gif">
"The Moonbase", 2nd Doctor, 1967
<img src="http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3731/cybermen2.jpg">
"The Tomb of the Cybermen", 2nd Doctor, 1967
<img src="http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7404/cybermen3.jpg">
"The Wheel in Space", 2nd Doctor, 1968
<img src="http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6194/cybermen4.jpg">
"The Invasion", 2nd Doctor, 1969
<img src="http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2933/cybermen5.jpg">
"Revenge of the Cybermen", 4th Doctor, 1975
<img src="http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/429/cybermen6.jpg">
Also the Cyberman head seen in the Van Statten's museum in "Dalek"
<img src="http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/8075/cybermen6a.jpg">
"Earthshock", 5th Doctor, 1982
<img src="http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4650/cybermen7.jpg">
"Attack of the Cybermen", 6th Doctor, 1985
<img src="http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/579/cybermen8.jpg">
"Silver Nemesis", 7th Doctor, 1988
<img src="http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/7390/cybermen9.jpg">
Wow. Thank you for putting that together!
I can never work out how I feel about the Tenth Planet costumes. I keep thinking they don't look very intimidating, they're basically cloth masks, but then I look at the face a little more and get really creeped out that you can almost see the flesh underneath. It's a weird cycle.
Thankyou.
Thank you for all the pics.
Although for some reason I'm seeing 'The Tenth Planet' Cybermen as the Human Being from Community and now I can't unsee it.
<img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/2zh0i3d.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
…and now I can't either! 😀 Somehow I think this can only improve my experience watching Community. Next year's Halloween episode would be a perfect showcase for this.
Gotta damit, the earliest Cybermen are the creepiest BECAUSE they look so homemade. They really do look like people who have been augmented with anything they could find.
Slight addendum, since the Cybermen do make a brief appearance in the Pertwee years:
Carnival of Monsters, 3rd Doctor, 1973
<img src="http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7294/miniscope.jpg">
(The same Cybermen as in "The Invasion")
And the 3rd Doctor got to see them again…
The Five Doctors, special, 1983
<img src="http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9098/5doc1.jpg">
<img src="http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7673/5doc2.jpg">
<img src="http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/2512/5doc3.jpg">
(Cybermen the same as "Earthshock" and that's a Raston Warrior Robot doing all the damage.)
THIS IS AMAZING THANK YOU SO MUCH.
I kind of find the first two images…endearing and cute? Sock-puppet-like?
Hehe. It can't just be me that thinks that several of their incarnations look like Lego men, right?
Definitely not!
The delete thing is pretty stupid and introduced for no good reason. They never needed that in the classic series. Also they sound similar to the Daleks because Nick Briggs does the voices for both. I like the pay-off on the Ricky gag even if it makes no sense. Also love the fact that this story focuses more on Mickey (and Ricky) giving some much needed character development.
Yeah, the delete thing narms it all up for me. Another thing, I really like the classic series Cyberman voice, but not the new one…
Well, Nick Briggs also does other aliens that sound nothing like the Daleks. It must have been a Choice to make them sound similar.
I nearly died of laughter when Alt!Rose turned out to be a Yorkshire terrier. Totally understood the Doctor's reaction to that.
Mickey finally gets some backstory, at last! Although, I was slightly distracted because I recognised his grandmother from Eastenders (I haven't watched in years and she left in the mid-90's but I still remember her).
I think my problem with Rose's part in this episode is that it just feels like a retread of Father's Day, and not a particularly effective one. She also kept saying she got that she couldn't stay and had to go back to her Jackie but, I don't know, I got this feeling like she was tempted to stay with them.
"Zeppelins and Fringe. That is all I will say for those who will get that."
Hee, it's like a rule, paralell/alternate/whatever universes MUST have Zeppelins. The earpods everyone was wearing also reminded me of the little hoop earpieces everyone in the Altverse on Fringe wore.
It took me a second to work out what those things that dropped out of the ceiling when the TARDIS crashed were. Breathing masks like on a plane.
I'd read that there'd been criticism of Roger Lloyd Pack's performance and I can honestly see why, Lumic just feels a little…TOO over the top. That sounds weird but it just feels a bit much, a bit forced.
More of my TARDIS love: the idea of her being "dead" at the beginning was heartbreaking.
I'd read that there'd been criticism of Roger Lloyd Pack's performance and I can honestly see why, Lumic just feels a little…TOO over the top. That sounds weird but it just feels a bit much, a bit forced.
IA. Is part of his sickness that he has to look intensely straight ahead and not make eye contact with people? It was all just a bit.. weird.
"I'd read that there'd been criticism of Roger Lloyd Pack's performance and I can honestly see why, Lumic just feels a little…TOO over the top. That sounds weird but it just feels a bit much, a bit forced. "
Forced FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE!
What is it with Doctor Who villains being total hams? Lumic is a textbook Large Ham.
The earpods are like bluetooth headpieces. That's what the Doctor compares them to right as soon as they figure out what they are. And that's what I thought IMMEDIATELY upon seeing this episode. Isn't it always creepy to see someone walking down the street talking to themselves? So here we are with EVERYONE walking down the street talking to themself and that's creepy, too.
Thing I like most about this episode: Mickey being so assertive and going off to find parallel-Gran (even if it's bound to get him into trouble). He sort of stands up for himself for once and it's especially noticeable when the Doctor is standing between him and Rose going off in different directions and Mickey says "Go on, go after her" pointing out that it's never going to be about him. Ten will alway think of Rose first.
Plus, when Rose tells Ten what happened to Mickey's Gran all he can say oh, that's so sad, he never knew.
WELL NO SHIT SHERLOCK!
It's not like you paid any attention to Mickey before, what with mocking him after disappearing with his girlfriend for a year and subsequently being ultimately responsible for Mickey being arrested by the police for possibly murdering her and most likely being ostracised by his whole community. I like you Doctor I do, but when it comes to Mickey you can be a complete and utter unlikeable douchebag.
I'm having a thought, here. The Doctor has always picked on Mickey for being needy and kind of a doofus (well, he does run flat into a wall at one point and end up on his back in a very classic physical gag). I think a possible reason is that the Doctor thinks he is capable of more and is trying to goad him into 1) defending himself and 2) becoming more independent. And we know that when the Doctor thinks someone is capable of more, he may or may not be nice about getting them to show it.
I'm sorry, but I call crap. Whether or not the Doctor is trying to make Mickey a more independant person, that doesn't make his behavior right and we should not excuse him for it. Again he was responsible for Mickey being arrested for murder. And he never apologised. Not once.
The Doctor is 900 with all the wisdom and maturity that implies. If someone needs to be more independent, there are ways to encourage them without being a complete jerk or a bully and the Doctor should know that.
I forget about the murder thing. It's funny how that is glossed over so simply. Mickey really should have a huge grudge against the Doctor, and even more, should be loathing Rose over that. So I don't even know if Mickey's reactions to all of these things are really realistic either.
My thought was me trying to rationalize the Doctor being blatantly mean to someone who hasn't done anything counter to his beliefs. I'm thinking of a moment where he WAS mean and it was intentionally to improve who someone is, but it's spoilery.
But anyway, I wasn't trying to say I was RIGHT, more that I had a thought and was sort of reaching as to why that hadn't been brought up and why it wasn't the case. I can see the point about being accused of murder.
I sort of agree with you- I think the Doctor is actually showing just as much respect as neglect in letting Mickey go. It's founded on lack of information, but he thinks Rose is going to be the bigger fuckup there than Mickey the Idiot, so she's the one he follows. I mean, even after Rose tells him about Mickey's grandmother, it's not like the Doctor goes back on his decision.
I also did not get to post this in the comments of that episode, so this is kind of off topic but I REALLY don't understand how HE was under suspicion of murder when the same night she disappears a bunch of people get mauled by manikins. Like, unless he did something dumb like tell someone she was with him and then clam up once they asked what happened, he really should not have been the number one suspect.
I'm reminded of one scene in Series 5 where the Eleventh Doctor encouraged someone to be more independent – and he did it in a much better and effective and clever way than Nine/Ten did with Mickey. 🙂
YES. And how perfect is it that you posted your first Fringe review before these episodes? Too perfect!
I love that Mickey was involved in the plot of this episode and that he stood up for himself. No more ignoring him! And I swear, the first thing I said was "hey, Mickey looks good with short hair." Twins. For Rose, it's a bit of a rehash, but I like seeing her interact with her parents. And sorta screwing up again. Love these episodes!
Not really important, but I had to pause the episode at the end, and this was what I got:
<img src="http://oi54.tinypic.com/z5p1d.jpg">
David Tennant is the King of Funny Faces, but the rest of the cast can totally bring it.
That's an awesome pic! lol
That is crying out for a caption competition!
I was also distracted by the whole Barty Crouch Snr/ Barty Crouch Jnr thing going on, but Roger Lloyd Pack will always be Trigger from Only Fools and Horses to me. What distracted me more was that any time Jake was on screen all I could think of was Byker Grove (English Kids tv show he used to be in) THAT was bloody distracting.
All in all, I really like this episode, mainly because I think Cybermen are fucking awesome. This episode originally aired when I was in year 10 at school, and two years later we went on a trip to the Imperial War Museum and we drove right past Battersea Power Station and I turned to my friend and said that that was where Cybermen lived. They had no idea what I was talking about.
Anyways, enough of my life story… Dr Who. Right. Yes. My heart nearly broke when Mickey was talking to his nan- so cute. And when the Doctor decided to go with Rose (which of course he is always going to do).
I love Mickey.
I recall an old Cyberman head in van Statten’s museum in series one. It was commented on.
"Old friend of mine, well enemy." Yeah that was a Cybermen from the classic series.
"The Cybermen’s cry of DELETE reminds me too much of EXTERMINATE. Actually, it even sounds a lot like that voice too."
Just a note. Same guy does both, but he screws with them. This episode rated a 3 for scariness, and I guess it deserves it. Neh. Also, it's a two parter. Do you know what that means? It means I can say: BUMBUMBUM. And it will actually be a good thing.
I just want to say thank you for posting what each episode rated for scariness, I find it to be an interesting bit of trivia. 😀
"Ok, so we hear Torchwood again in this episode, once during the news report and once from Pete. Torchwood exists in the parallel universe too??? How is that possible when the Doctor only exists in one world and essentially caused its creation?"
The idea, although it isn't specifically spelled out in this episode, is that parallel versions are created by reality being split at certain key decision points – a sort of version of the many worlds interpretation of quantum theory. Thus this world would have a shared past with the normal universe, where the Torchwood institute was still founded by Queen Victoria.
More specifically, the plan for the end of "Tooth and Claw" was to have Queen Victoria bitten by the werewolf in some way that showed this parallel universe being born. Russell T Davies dropped the idea as too science fiction and complex for a general audience.
If we follow that line of thinking, we say that in the history of this world the monarchy was taken over by the wolf and we got a steampunk Victorian and Edwardian age but at some point the wolf was overthrown. This explains the zeppelins and the fact there's a president rather than a monarch and the apparent martial law (army checkpoints).
Yeah, the origin of the parallel worlds reminds me a bit of the video game Chrono Cross (though the execution of that game's plot was rubbish…).
OH. OOOOOH. Well that completely changes the way I think of the parallel universes, then.
Oh, thanks for the explanation, it's great. I wish it had been used.
I'm still not quite sure how they'd have staged it without it being really confusing.
You have to get the sense that Victoria is bitten in one universe and not in another. Without re-working "Tooth and Claw" as a kind of "Sliding Doors" dual narrative, I'm not sure how I'd do that.
I think it would have been awesome to have some continuity between the parallel worlds thing and the earlier episodes, instead of having them feel like just a bunch of random stuff that doesn't have anything linking them together. I'd much rather have an ep fleshing out and explaining the parallel worlds deal than a filler episode that has nothing to do with the rest of the season (even though these can be fun too.) People are smarter than they get credit for, in general.
Disappearing reply syndrome again…
I posted something to say it could be really confusing to have the Queen being bitten and not being bitten. It might pop up now I've posted this.
Indeed it has, an hour later but it shows before it.
I received it in my inbox, and I thought about finding you in another thread to thank you for the explanation, but I felt like a stalker so I didn't. It's happened with other comments, I receive the notification replies but they don't show here. At least the notifications have the text of both comments.
I should also say that the parallel world storyline revisits an idea first established in "Inferno", a third Doctor story from 1970, which is worth a look.
Also, it echoes "The Tenth Planet" the first Cybermen story. In that the Earth has a twin planet, Mondas, which leaves the solar system at some point before returning in Earth's future (1986, twenty years ahead of the broadcast date). The Mondasians started like humans but have adapted to become Cybermen to cope with the stresses of the journey. Twin planet and parallel earth are pretty similar concepts, really.
The story of the origin of the Cybermen on Mondas was spun out into an audio drama by Marc Platt called "Spare Parts":
http://www.bigfinish.com/34-Doctor-Who-Spare-Part…
Since this story revisits the same idea, Marc Platt was given a credit, although the actual stories are very different.
More directly, the episode "Dalek" was a rewrite of an audio adventure called "Jubilee" by the same author, Rob Shearman:
http://www.bigfinish.com/40-Doctor-Who-Jubilee
It also gave it's name to a fictional Whoniverse shop called Jubilee Pizza.
This makes the parallel universe arc far more interesting to me. Thanks so much!
"EarPods. It’s not a stretch to think of iPods, right?"
I thought of Bluetooth headsets.
What really bugs me is the explanation we're given for what caused the differences between this world and ours. I'm not sure if that's considered a spoiler at this point (I don't think it's ever stated *in the show*), so I won't say it, but it made no sense to me.
One of the interesting things about this episode, in the context of character development, was seeing illustrated the extremely strong (yet almost unconscious) influence that the Doctor exerts over his companions. Mickey's been with them for what…? Two episodes now? And already the Doctor, rather than Rose, is his emotional point of reference. In Season 1, Rose chose to leave Mickey and follow the Doctor, and Mickey bitterly cried after her that it was "always the Doctor, and never me!" Here, early in Season 2, the Doctor is torn between following Rose or following Mickey into the dangers of the alternate reality, and Mickey bitterly comments that for the Doctor, it's "always about Rose, I'm just a spare part." It's a complete emotional inversion in a remarkably small amount of time. I don't think that Mickey's feelings for Rose have lessened, but I do think that his viewpoint has become that of a fellow companion and as such, a rival to Rose for the Doctor's attention, rather than the other way around. And it shows Mickey growing from an extension of Rose into a person with non-Rose-centric feelings of his own.
Great comment, I hadn't thought of that before!
I don't know that it's so much the Doctor's influence as it was Mickey commenting on the fact that he's obviously the third wheel here, and neither of his companions are ever going to be putting him first. It's a pretty shitty place to be, and kind of dangerous considering the situations this trio are apt to get into.
"I’m curious why Rose feels the need to “fix” her family over and over again."
Perhaps she's spent her life being constantly told that she isn''t good enough.
I'm sorry, when do we ever see Rose being told that she isn't good enough? Every second character on the show, and even the writers constantly talk about her as if she is the most wonderful person ever.
I think it's a safe bet that being part of British society that is generally looked down on- Poorly educated, working class- she may have had a lot of it in her youth.
To be honest, I suspect the reasoning is more that she is an incurable fixer. Some people are, and she has a big something to fix- the absnese of a father who she's been told was a hero; and now she has met him for all of a day. She wants her daddy, does there wreally need to be another reason?
She wants her daddy, does there really need to be another reason?
No. There doesn't. So why did you feel the need to suggest that Rose has been looked down on her whole life when there is never any suggestion of that within the show even once?
I wasn't the one who did? I was giving a possible reason the other commenter may have thought she was.
Apologies.
I think it's called having a discussion? I'm not trying to be snarky here but this reads a bit hostile. I think it's pretty likely, seeing where Rose has come from, that she would have been looked down on by some sections of society. She's a 'chav', which they joked about in New Earth. That's a derogatory term.
Yes it's a derogatory term. But it was used by Cassandra aka the bitchy trampoline who prides herself on being better than everyone. There is no indication that Rose has experienced such insults in her own time. Plus, if you want to go into Expanded Universe, in the tie in novels it is mentioned that Rose was considered the best looking girl on the estate and everyone thought that Mickey was phenomenally lucky to be her boyfriend. Again, everyone thought she was awesome.
I feel that saying 'she's working class, people must have been nasty to her' and presenting it as an excuse for her less than good actions is a total cop out. Why not allow her to be a normal person who makes mistakes instead of constanly adding some quick addendum as to how she's not really to blame because of excuse XYZ? Accepting blame and moving on is part of growing up. Making excuses is childish and it makes Rose seem childish and doesn't show her as the rounded character that she really is.
Well, if you mean me personally, I don't think I am making excuses for Rose, but rather looking at where she's come from to see why she acts the way she does. That's part of the fun of watching a character-driven show, trying to figure out what makes them tick. I've agreed in plenty of posts through this series that Rose has tendencies to be selfish and immature. Discussing reasons for that is different to excusing her behaviour outright.
As for chav, it's a pretty common term now, which I guess is why the writers put it in (it's completely unbelievable that someone from the year 5 billion would know the word 'chav'). The writers are probably fully aware that's how some people would classify her. People living on the same housing estate thinking she's great doesn't mean that wider society wouldn't look down their noses at her. It's an unfortunate fact of life that poor/working class people get ridiculed and disdained in society in general.
Oh I accept her flaws like I do with anyone. People are flawed. Rose is flawed. Some of her flaws may have reasons behind them, and I don't think pointing them out makes her any less well-rounded.
To be honest, I like her. She's like a blonder, less-well educated me, at least when I was younger. I can like someone while acknowledging they're flawed and fuck up occasionally.
Here's the thing with fandom, and it is a universal thing- if you dislike a character you will find reasons to dislike them, and discount reasons to like them. If you like a character it's the other way around. So yeah, I'm bisased. I automatically see the positive side of her actions and of her character.
"I think it's a safe bet that being part of British society that is generally looked down on- Poorly educated, working class- she may have had a lot of it in her youth."
I was just thinking this. The fact that she's grown up poor, working class, most likely expecting her life to go nowhere is really important. How much respect did she get from others? How much respect does she have for herself?
I love how Billie Piper delivers the line 'they're rich' in this episode — like she's can't even believe it, like it's the most bizarre thing ever. I think it says a lot.
I recall a comic from Dr Who magazine based in the 9 era, which had a brief two page bit of her fears over how her life may have turned out when she didn't go with the Doctor. It ends with her old, overweight, a single mum, lonely and working in a supermarket, and horribly depressed.
Really, young women like Rose have very little respect shown in the real world.
I think it's more implied that this happened in her life prior to meeting the Doctor than the show itself. There's a telling exchange in Rose. Rose doesn't want to get a job at the butcher's and Jackie tells her that at least it's work and it might actually be a GOOD thing that Hendrik's was blown up because "that shop was giving you airs and graces"!
Woah. Actually, I was making a joke. Clearly no one got it (probably because I've got the weirdest, most bizarre word-association in the world) I was referring to a character on LOST, who is obsessed with fixing things and had a Dad who told him as a kid that he wasn't good enough. Obviously, I'm not funny.
But seeing as my comment sparked a debate made of awesome, I'm not too displeased. I've never actually put much thought into Rose being told that's she's not good enough, she seems pretty doted on to me. But like I said, not much time spent thinking about it.
If you like Noel Clarke, I recommend some of his other stuff, like http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0435680/
Are we going to find out why the Ninth Doctor insisted that Mickey was actually Ricky?
hehhehehe 😉
Loving that first gif
<img src=http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/NB2000/LOLCats/Gifs/Doctor%20Who%20Gifs/vi15yg.gif>
That whole sequence is just love. I can't wait to be able to post things like the gag reel.
Seriously! I recently got the Series 2 DVD boxset and I laughed for at least ten minutes after I watched the gag reel – HILARIOUS!
Right-click, save! I hadn't seen that one before!
There's also a seesaw one someone posted on page 2.
I founds it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ndoUu2tYFc&fe…
WHEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Yeah, I've never understood that. A lot of fans seem to assume that the Doctor only exists in one world, but I find that to swallow. While its possible that Queen Vic fought the were-wolf off herself and went along with Torchwood, it seems to be stretching plausibility. Especially if you consider that if the Doctor had exists in /our/ universe, I'm pretty much sure that the human race, the Earth and the entire universe would be dead by this point.
Mark, if you want a really good Cybermen story, watch "The Tomb of the Cybermen" featuring the Second Doctor.
Noel Clarke is totally unf-worthy. I approve of your crush.
This episode isn’t the Best Episode Ever, but I think that it is enjoyable enough. And it does give us some pretty neat insight into the relationships between the Doctor, Mickey and Rose. Also, at last! After the last two episodes, an episode that is wank free! Right? Please tell me we can enjoy this episode without drama.
First, let’s take a second to admire how completely and utterly adorable Rose is.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/GuyCrazy1017/Doctor%20Who%20screencaps/2x05roseisadorable.gif">
Lol. The Doctor is so whipped.
I know that a lot of people complain about Rose being supposedly clingy in series 2, but I see none of that here. She’s basically like “fuck you, Doctor. I’m going after my dad. You can come along if you want.” Rose is pretty fiercely independent. Sure she loves traveling with and being with the Doctor, but she’s still capable of being her own person.
What I really love about this episode is that we get to see a lot more of Mickey. He is one of my all time favorite secondary characters from New Who. After being forgotten about in “The Girl in the Fireplace”, I love that we really get an exploration of Mickey and the Mickey/Rose/Doctor dynamic. The fact that the Doctor forgets about having told Mickey to press a button speaks volumes. Poor Mickey. I think the Doctor is genuinely fond of him… he just kind of forgets about him.
The Doctor: I told you to keep an eye on her!
Mickey Smith: She's all right…
The Doctor: She goes wandering off! Parallel world; it's like a gingerbread house! All those temptations calling her.
Mickey Smith: Oh, so it's just Rose then? Nothing out there to tempt me?
The Doctor: Well I dunno, I can't worry about everything! If I could just get this thing to…
[he kicks the TARDIS. Hard]
Mickey Smith: Did that help?
The Doctor: Yes.
Mickey Smith: Did that hurt?
The Doctor: Yes.
[Clutches foot]
The Doctor: Ow!
I think that interaction completely captures Mickey and the Doctor’s relationship. The Doctor hasn’t bothered to find out about Mickey’s life. But at the same time, they have a nice bit of camaraderie, and I think their genuine affection for each other is clear.
The Doctor: Stay where you are. Both of you! Rose, come back here! Mickey, come back here! Right now!
Rose: I just want to see him!
Mickey: I’ve got things to see and all.
The Doctor: Like what?!
Mickey: You don’t know anything about me, do ya? It’s always about Rose. I’m just the spare part.
Rose: I’m sorry. I’ve gotta go.
Mickey: Go on then. You can only chase after one of us, and it’s never going to be me, is it?
The Doctor [to Mickey as he turns to go after Rose]: Back here! Twenty-four hours!
Mickey [to himself]: Yeah… if I haven’t found something better.
Mickey’s line “It’s never going to be me, is it?” is a pretty obvious reference to his line in “Boomtown” when he is talking to Rose about the Doctor and says that she's always going to choose the Doctor, "it's never going to be me". Rose is always going to choose the Doctor and the Doctor is always going to choose Rose.
And a final note about Rose and the Doctor. I know that a lot of people complain about how Rose and the Doctor are too clique-ish in series 2… and yeah. Maybe that’s true, but that’s the way people tend to get when they’re in a new relationship isn’t it? Still, the way that the episode opens with Rose and the Doctor cracking up over some inside joke is sad for Mickey.
In closing, here is a sequence of images of Rose and the Doctor being funny and adorable when the they find out that Alt!Jackie has a dog named Rose. The Doctor can’t help but laugh and Rose just gives him a *look* that shuts him right up..
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/GuyCrazy1017/Doctor Who screencaps/2x05doctorlaughing.jpg">
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/GuyCrazy1017/Doctor%20Who%20screencaps/2x05roseglares.jpg">
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/GuyCrazy1017/Doctor%20Who%20screencaps/2x05thedoctorstopslaughing.jpg">
"Lol. The Doctor is so whipped."
What's new? XD I love how she sidles up along him and you can tell by her body language and his reaction that this is sooo not the first time she's wheedled her way XD
(And hee!!! I got first comment today, didja see?!? XD … after not commenting in ages, yesterday kind of ignited me in a way XD)
I love Rose's Death Glare of Doom. =D
I actually feel for Rose a lot in this episode. But that didn't stop me gritting my teeth when Ten just gave into that look. Talk about favouritism.
Same.
"Talk about favouritism. "
Why shouldn't he? The writers/actors/producers have made their relationship crystal clear.
Well… yeah. The Doctor doesn't feel the same way about Mickey as he doesn't about Rose. How is this surprising? I mean, the Doctor definitely seems to like Mickey and he's fond of him, but, he's not Rose.
That last gif is my favorite. The expression there, and those HUGE EYES that just say so damn much without him ever having to utter a word. So much going on there! Such fine acting.
Come now- I know that you view the whipped thing as a positive, but give some context to that gif! The Doctor has just learned that Pete Tyler is involved in the corperation that makes just the sort of technology that bothers him (the whole earpieces do remind me a little of the situation on Satellite 5)- a kind that embraces laziness and works against the cultivation of independent thought. I'm not saying that adorable thing she does has no sway on him, but we KNOW how much the Doctor likes to pick at things that aren't quite right, and I'm betting his curiosity is what tipped the scales there.
I do basically agree with everything you said about Mickey, though. I don't understand why a lot of people seem to think that this episode is a continuation of the Doctor's horrible behavior towards Mickey. The beginning scene is rude, but I think that's more serving the purpose of obvious metaphor, not the Doctor showing any real callousness towards their third wheel. There is a bit of neglect in that relationship, especially in the shadow of the Doctor's relationship with Rose, but not anything truly mean at this point. In fact, I think the Doctor shows some subtle respect for Mickey in this episode, but I've elaborated on that in like two other places, and this whole paragraph is just a really long way of saying IA.
I love the whole exchange in the TARDIS between the Doctor and Mickey that you quoted. The best part being that Mickey totally keeps glancing over at him and then mirroring his posture. Oh, Mickey. <3
I've never commented on your blog before, though I've been following you since halfway through Goblet of Fire, but I feel like I have to step in in defense of Rose for a second.
It's easy to say that Rose has a tendency to fuck things up, but then she's a 19 year old human– in her shoes, could you do any better? If you thought you could fix something in your past, to make the people you love happier… you'd try to, even if the root of that was kind of self-serving. And the funny thing about Rose's mistakes? They always come from a place of overwhelming compassion. Yes, she set a Dalek loose with a touch… but she touched it because it was alone and in pain, the very last of its kind. She took the Doctor's hand, and it made him better– she couldn't do anything but the same to anyone else. She *absorbed the Time Vortex for him.*
On that note, a friend of mine has a theory as to why the TARDIS takes them to this particular alternate universe– and it's because of Rose. When she became the Bad Wolf, she bonded with the TARDIS, and on some level, it, being a sentient ship, KNOWS her. It knows her heart. And the TARDIS knows it screwed up in Father's Day. It saw this crack, this chance to give Rose another shot, and the TARDIS took it– just like it will go to Cardiff 1869 instead of Naples 1863 if it knows that's where it's needed.
That theory is really interesting! Does anyone else have something similar?
"On that note, a friend of mine has a theory as to why the TARDIS takes them to this particular alternate universe– and it's because of Rose. When she became the Bad Wolf, she bonded with the TARDIS, and on some level, it, being a sentient ship, KNOWS her. It knows her heart. And the TARDIS knows it screwed up in Father's Day. It saw this crack, this chance to give Rose another shot, and the TARDIS took it– just like it will go to Cardiff 1869 instead of Naples 1863 if it knows that's where it's needed. "
Oh I **like** that!
And ((wave!!)) =D
Whoa! I really love that theory. I'm totally adopting that as personal canon.
And I'm with you in defending Rose! She's awesome, and she goes after things because she cares. I don't understand why people think of her as co-dependent, especially in series 2! Whenever people say that, I just flash back to Rose just being a BAMF when she and the ladies are trapped in Tooth and Claw.
<img src="http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu2/johnmayergirl23/Cute%20and%20Squee/cuterose.gif" border="0" alt="Rose cute">
[you continue to be the best ever]
I haven't seen this episode in ages, but I remember liking it. I do have Cyberman pictures and that's mainly what I wanted to comment with. 🙂
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/51zhio.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i33.tinypic.com/2gwbbqf.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/15mjtj6.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/34e2eqf.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
Aaaw that kid in the pic with the two Cybermen. He's so tiny compared to them. *is such a pushover*
I love that photo of all the Old Who Cybermen linking arms.
That's so awesome! lol
Oh god, the little kid with the Cybermen. It's either the most awesome day of his life thus far, or he's going to have nightmares for ages.
The second picture is so adorable!
Okay. Big Question here. I thought they couldn't see out of those costumes. How in the heck do they interact with people like that?
The earpods tell them where to go and what is there.
I'm assuming not all the costumes had that, since they had to constantly practice whether they were going in scenes– but that's cool. I suppose I should expect the speakers-in-the-ears thing. They do a great job of making me think they can see.
A'm so very very sorry! I was joking and saying that actual cybermen don't need to see because of their earpods. I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.
Anyway, now I'm wondering why they don't do that. I think it'd be easier to be guided than to practice a route (even if you'd still have to practice).
I didn't know they couldn't see, I stopped watching the Confidentials about halfway this season (until Eleven)
"The days of me taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." 😉
Oh, okay. Yea, they can't see. And I assumed when you said 'earpods' you meant the parts of the costume around their ears and I didn't even question it.
And yea. They spend most of their time walking around with the headparts off and put them on only to do the actual scenes. The fact that they appear to be Looking at that boy just astounds me.
Sorry!
And agreed, that picture is fantastic.
The kid in the second pic looks either terrified or like he's meeting Santa.
Who knew the Cybermen liked frolicking in fields so goddamn much?
I too am fascinated by the concept of parallel universes, and will read/watch basically ANYTHING with that premise lol.
The first time I saw this episode, I was kind of "meh" about it, but on further watchings I've actually come to love it. Rose as a dog is hilarious and there is something poignant about Mickey in this episode too. I can't remember what things happened in which episode though, so :X.
In other news, I need to start watching Fringe so I can watch/read along!
Fringe is amazing. I'm about to finish series 1 (I had started it a while ago but things got in the way) and I'm tempted to buy series 2 (yay for vouchers) without even having seen it based on how much I love it already.
DOCTOR/TARDIS OTP
Forget posting about liking or disliking Doctor/Rose, that only leads to trouble. Doctor/TARDIS all the way 😀
THIS, if anyone is the Doctor's true love it's the TARDIS.
Agreed! The Tardis is the ultimate HBIC y/y?
DAMN STRAIGHT
I love you guys, I'm just saying.
DOCTOR/TARDIS 4EVA!
"I always think his mean faces are kind of silly, but the shorter haircut and shirtlessness were thumbs up for sure."
THIS. I love how the way to distinguish Mickey from Ricky is the permanent scowl the latter has. I wonder if Noel Clarke's face hurt after filming this?
Same here. He definitely makes some crazy scowly face-stretchy faces in this one.
Please excuse my crudeness, but Camille Coduri's breasts look INCREDIBLE in that black dress!
"I told you to keep and eye on her"
"She's all right"
"She goes wandering off…a parallel world. It's like a gingerbread house. All those temptations calling her"
Don't you dare have a go at Mickey for something you're suppose to be doing. You promised Jackie you'd keep Rose safe and always take her home, not Mickey. You deserve your sore foot for that you big bumface!
My parents have recently bought Bluetooth attatchments for their phones, i worry for their sanity, and their brains (not because of the radiation, because of the *STOMP STOMP STOMP* Cybermen).
I have a confession to make: I am a Dalek fan girl through and through! The *STOMP STOMP STOMP* Cybermen do nothing to me, i don't find them even the tiniest bit threatening or scary. It think it might be because of the difference in their designs. The Daleks are such an odd shape, and the creature inside is so disgusting that i have no trouble in believing that they are aliens. But the *STOMP STOMP STOMP* Cybermen are a humanoid shape, they have a head, arms, legs and feet, and that engenders some form of compassion for them, especially when you discover they use to be human beings. When there'a a stomping, maniacal metal thing electrocuting people, the last thing i want to feel is compassion for them. When the *STOMP STOMP STOMP* Cybermen show up i never think 'fuck, we're screwed!', but i do with the Daleks.
I agree about Camille Coduri. All of Jackie's clothes have been loose or tracksuits in our universe but that fancy dress really shows off her figure amazingly.
It won't let me edit my comment anymore, so i'll put the rest of it here instead:
Even though the Doctor is being a bumface when he laughs at Rose the cutest dog ever!, i can't help but love that bit! What ten said in The Christmas Invasion is true. Ten is rude. Very rude. Very rude and very not ginger.
There should be more half naked Noel Clarkes on television. JS.
What can i say about Ricky Smith?…….i don't like him. He's extremely aggresive, and constantly looks disgusted with everything he sees. Men like that scare me.
I much prefer kind, sweet, gentle Mickey. I love him!
This is another 'meh' episode for me.
Is anyone else imagining terrified screams whilst listening to this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LBmUwi6mEo
I'm terrified of the cybermen! The first episode of doctor who I ever saw was the next one and to this day I am scared of the *STOMPSTOMPSTOMP* Cybermen! (stomp is a weird word…)
Stomp stomp stomp is the impression Nick Briggs does when he talks about the Cybermen in the Confidential episodes, it always makes me chuckle. 🙂
This is the episode where I totally lost my last vestige of affection for Rose. Mickey needs emotional support; she goes off to do her own thing. Doing her own thing may (she knows from direct experience) endanger herself, the people she loves and the universe, and on being told so, her reaction is to pout at the Doctor like a child until he gives in. (This ties into one of my major problems with RTD's writing, which is that a lot of his characters aren't permitted to learn from their experiences.)
The Doctor, if anything, is worse, since Rose has the excuse of being 20 years old and quite emotionally immature. The scenes with the Doctor and Mickey, both laughing at him in the beginning and letting him go off on his own, were both loathsome. Emotional callousness has always been a trait of the Doctor's, but never to the extent of so blatantly favouring one companion over another. The fact that Mickey is the first black companion is … well, let's not get into spoilers.
Agree with this comment. I hadn't seen this episode for years so when I re-watched I was disgusted all over again with that scene at the start.
"Emotional callousness has always been a trait of the Doctor's, but never to the extent of so blatantly favouring one companion over another."
If it weren't for double standards with Rose, the Doctor would have no standards at all =) I love Rose personally, but yeah … the Doctor (both Nine and Ten) are completely whipped as far as she is concerned.
"(This ties into one of my major problems with RTD's writing, which is that a lot of his characters aren't permitted to learn from their experiences.) "
I disagree with this … I think we see this quite a lot in his writing.
upvoting because I don't think disagreeing is enough of a reason to downvote.
I don't agree, but your point is intelligent and well put. Come on people, are we not grown up enough to accept that people will think differently to us?
I will downvote excessive and violent and unreasoning character hate, but never well-put and interesting viewpoints on characters or plot points.
Seriously, I'm tired of seeing people get downvoted for simply having different opinions. Yesterday was kind of the last straw for me, and I'm making a point from now on to upvote well-thought-out posts regardless of whether I agree with the points made or not.
I don't think it has anything to do with Mickey's ethnicity? I mean, it's pretty obvious why the dynamics between the three of them are as they are and it has everything to do with the relationships involved.
Sorry to try and add to your very good point, but I also think that we aren't even MEANT to like Rose and the Doctor. I think we are supposed to like Mickey here, cause he is the only one IMO acting maturely, and nicely and just being his awesome self.
it's not that the thing with mickey being black is intentional, it just has unfortunate implications (ones that are all the more clear as the show goes on).
I'm sorry, but I don't see that there are any such implications whatsoever.
This isn't me trying to blame Rose because, whilst she's probably my least favourite companion, I don't dislike her. But I am going to disagree with your 'she's twenty and emotionally immature' comment because hello, I am twenty also and I don't consider myself emotionally immature at all. Immaturity suggests a lack of development and to imply that someone isn't fully emotionally developed by the time they're twenty is sort of ridiculous. I'm old enough to be married, to have children. I may be over-reacting a little bit because I know it was a fairly off-hand comment, but this is something that frustrates me. Young people get enough flak for being young as it is without being told they're emotionally immature too.
I think Rose is fully emotionally mature in this episode. What she also is is somebody who's never had a father her whole life, apart from one terrifying day where she then had to watch him die. I think someone of any age would be curious to go and find him. If you are being entirely honest tell me – you end up in a parallel universe and find part of your family exists. Doesn't matter if they're living or dead, doesn't matter how much sci-fi you've read/watched to know it's probably a bad idea, would you really not want to go and see what their life was like?
"I don't think the Doctor was in love with Reinette, I think it was a strong infatuation and her death affected him greatly"
Agreed … I think of it as a celebrity crush, he seemed to have a crush on her as a historical figure before he even met her. I agree her death affected him greatly — GITF in a way is like a counterpoint to School Reunion. Sarah Jane spent her life waiting for him, and so did Reinette … except Reinette proves his point about humans decaying quickly. He spent less than a day of linear time with her, and she went from a little girl to a woman and died in that short time for him. As per School Reunion, he's scared of losing people he loves …. and what happened to Reinette is his fear of what would happen to Sarah Jane and what would happen to Rose. It must terrify him on many levels.
"He's good at not carrying things over. "
Not agreed here …
"I also don't think he's in love with Rose, or at the very least I don't think he can allow himself to be. "
Nah, he's in love with her – this has been stated not only by Davies, but Moffat, Gardner, Eccleston, Tennant and Piper. I agree he can't allow himself to be, because of all sorts of emo!Time Lord reasons about "humans decay"ing etc.
For me personally, it doesn't matter who it's stated by, it matters how the viewers interpret what we see on screen. When we have to be constantly told things that large segments of viewers interpret differently is when I start getting annoyed. My later years in the Buffy fandom taught me that.
Personally, I think the Doctor loves a lot of people and he is just a little bit in love with a few of them. Yes, Rose is one of them, but the Doctor loves differently than humans do, and he can be in love with Rose and still a little bit in love with Reinette too.
Dead right. Authorial intention doesn't matter, what matters is the text (in the wide sense of the word – in this case what ends up on screen).
At this stage, I really don't think it's out of character for him to have wanted to spend time, romantically, with Reinette, given the opportunity of being on "the slow path". He certainly has never, up to now, treated Rose as if he is in a relationship with her or needs to show her some kind of romantic loyalty.
Beyond that, we can't say much more about the Doctor's feelings until they've played out.
"I really don't think it's out of character for him to have wanted to spend time, romantically, with Reinette, given the opportunity of being on "the slow path". "
Oh, so not this.
Remember she shows him the fireplace? He races to it, huge grin on his face, calls himself "lucky" to get back, tells her to wish him luck, and is prepared to leave her behind without so much as a how-do-ya-do!! It's only when she indicates that she wanted him to stay that he even thinks to invite her along. If he'd been "wanting to spend time with her" already, he would have done something to indicate regret about leaving her, or would have proactively invited her along without her "no!!" prompting him to.
I don't read it that way at all.
He'd have been happy to stay with her, he's even happier to get back to Rose and Mickey and the TARDIS, but he invites her with him, because he cares about her.
The look on his face at the end of the episode makes it clear how much he regrets not being able to spend more time with her.
Ten? Happy to stay in one place? We talking about the same guy? Hyperkinetic, has affection for but still talks down about Earth, can't stay in one place for 20 seconds?
He clearly "cares" about her, but that doesn't translate into "intent to bring her" until she prompts him to.
There was no "oh I wish I could have shown you the stars!" or "hey good idea on the fireplace — just in case it works, pack a bag and come with me" or "I guess this is goodbye, unless you want to come with me" etc etc etc. He's completely ready to say adieu-forevermore until she indicates that she doesn't want that, at which point he invites her.
There is a huge and massive difference there.
He's excited to get back but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to bring her with him. It really isn't clear that he's saying goodbye when he says "wish me luck".
And my original point is that he'll have a romantic liaison with Reinette if he's stuck, he doesn't feel any obligation to Rose not to.
Agree with both you and Openattheclose and am surprised you were both downvoted for having perfectly valid opinions and stating them well.
I agree with you about authorial intent. I really have to dig up the proper quote casue I metioned it yesterday but for every possible reader there is a possible different interpretation of the text. One persons view of a text is no less valid than another.
Besides not everyone listens to the people behind the show. I stopped reading interviews with writers and TPTB of any show I watch a while ago after being burned one too many times.
"Besides not everyone listens to the people behind the show. I stopped reading interviews with writers and TPTB of any show I watch a while ago after being burned one too many times. "
Understood. I usually don't, but something about Doctor Who just captivates me … there are so many layers of nuanced details, it makes me want to know what was going on inside the author's head. I've learned so much from things like "A Writer's Tale" that gives me a new appreciation for characterization … (spoiler-free!!! I promise!!!) like, a certain scene from the last episode in s4 that Davies spent a *month* writing and rewriting when he was laid up sick in bed. The nuance in that scene is all the more poignant because I now *know* what he was going for, and why almost nothing could be good enough for him to settle for. I always loved that scene, and knowing the love and care that went into it makes me love it more.
Hope that makes sense XD
I'm just going to put this here and appreciate how attractive Noel Clarke is.
<img src="http://parlourmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Noel-Clarke-actor-and-fil-005.jpg">
<img src="http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/noelclarke500.jpg">
I'd hit it.
I mean- I would have meaningful and respectful conversations with that handsome young gentleman before taking him to bed at a time we were both ready…
Nah, fuck it, I can't pretend to be A Nice Person ™. I'd Hit That.
I approve of this comment! (Mostly of the Noel piccage=D)
He's so pretty. *sigh*
GQMF indeed, good lord.
Bonus points for the second one, white shirt + black suit on a man is strangely appealing to me..I don't know why.
FUCK. that second photo. UNF.
I KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOW, RIGHT?
UPVOTEUPVOTEUPVOTE
<3 <3 <3 <3 Flawless.
Of coures, after seeing this episode, you can never listen to The Lion Sleeps Tonight in quite the same way ever again.
It's the worst nightmare fuel ever.
Important things from Nu Who eps are almost always subsequently referenced…
I love that first gif so much, you deserve a million upvotes for posting it. 😀
Random Fact: It is unusual for a cybermen story to contain the word `Cybermen` in the title. (It happened 3 out of 10 appearances in the original run.) Contrast with the Daleks, where it is rare for the name to *not* be in the title. (3 out 16 appearances in the original run.)
I would have never noticed that, but I'm glad you did!
Now I have more random Who-knowledge.
Another Random Fact: Unlike the 2 parters in Series 1, there was no Next Time trailer included here. Instead there was just a TO BE CONTINUED caption. This was the first time that phrase had ever been used to end an episode in the history of Doctor Who.
I think how they glossed over the fact that the Doctor gave ten years of his lifespan to save the TARDIS was really weird. I don't doubt that the Doctor would do that for his ship (Doctor/TARDIS OTP anyone ;D), but it seems like it should be a bigger deal (even though 10 years is probably nothing to a Time Lord). And Rose, I know you're struggling with your family problems, but shouldn't you be comforting the Doctor because THE LAST LINK TO HIS HOME WORLD JUST DIED.
There's a great Chameleon Circuit song called "Shipwrecked" about this. Alex (the writer and lead-singer) said "This was inspired by the beginning of Rise Of The Cybermen in Season 2, where the TARDIS crash-lands and the Doctor declares, "the TARDIS is dead". It's a HUGE moment, but a minute later he's wandering around London and I didn't feel that moment had the proper emotion, so Shipwrecked is designed to sum up how he felt in that moment." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsfIwzpqAW4
Anyway, I've only seen this once and it was a long time ago, so I don't remember most of it and shouldn't comment on it further until I do a rewatch.
Has Mark started a new page to suggest the next Classic Who episode? Because I'd like to recommend "Tomb of the Cybermen." It's got Two being sneaky, awful American accents, and JAMIE. And the original Cybermen of course.
Doctor/TARDIS OTP indeed.
The thing I've wondered about that "ten years" thing…is that ten years from his life in total or is it ten years off this regeneration? I may be the only one who wondered about that.
No, you're not the only one. They were so freaking vague! I was just like "Hold up! What? Ten years off what? Does that mean we could have gotten more David Tennant? Explain! D:"
OH NO. This episode is the reason why we didn't get more David Tennant?! 😉
Well, no probably not, but I need something to blame, darn it! XP
Me too! YAY, it's this episode's fault, and in no way related to Tennant being a mature actor who wanted to do other things. (As an American, I'm so not used to that. And selfishly, I am glad that Hugh Laurie is still playing House after 7 years. It makes me a happy person.)
Doctor/ TARDIS
He strokes bits of it, it's pretty much cannon IMO.
Yeah, they really do gloss over the "death" of the Tardis. (Doctor/TARDIS OTP 4EVA!) That is all I can and will say at this point in time. And the ten years thing was odd- it had to be this regeneration, I'm sure, especially considering the way RTD seems to view regenerations as a thing the Doctor should mourn as well as the companion ("Rose Tyler. I was gonna take you to so many places… Maybe you will, and maybe I will, but not like this."). Makes for a great send-off for an actor, but I'm not sure it makes sense for the Doctor? Though if he's flippant about losing ten years in that body, maybe he doesn't think as much of it as I think it seems? Hmmm.
Definitely inconsistent writing, but lends a lot of food for thought and alternate interpretations.
"The Cybermen’s cry of DELETE reminds me too much of EXTERMINATE. Actually, it even sounds a lot like that voice too."
Well, to be fair, Nick Briggs, the voice of the Daleks, is also the voice of the Cybermen (and pretty much every other monster ever, it seems like).
And I always get excited whenever I watch Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire now, because of the Crouches! That's pretty much why I started watching this show, because there are SO MANY recognizable actors, although you may not notice it when they first appear. For instance, did you ever realize that Lady Cassandra is played by Zoe Wanamaker, the actress who plays Madame Hooch in Sorcerer's Stone? Because I didn't.
I'm with you on Noel Clarke, Mark. I watched this episode and was like, "Hey…how did I never notice how hot he is before?" Moar Shirtless Mickey, please!
I don't love this episode, but I do like it. It's pretty much just a vehicle to bring back the Cybermen. I don't find either the Cybermen or the Daleks particularly frightening, but of the two I'm more disturbed by the Cybermen. Just because of how they're made. I love the Daleks, but in a "they're so iconic and funny-looking with their whisks and plungers and the fact that they look like salt shakers and yet manage to be the terror of the universe" way.
Oh, and sorry Rose, but the fact that your parallel universe counterpart is a Yorkie is hilarious, I'm with the Doctor on this one.
ALSO:
David Tennant wearing glasses = A++++++++++++++
<img src=http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad311/Chritter710/Doctor/24l31oh.gif>
I believe the term is spexy.
<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/2n4ocx.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
He specified that he should wear them on occasion so that kids who wore glasses could have someone *cool* in the media shown wearing them
I worked in an opticians while this series was being shown and sales of tennant style specs shot right up.
I love it. I believe that was also JK Rowling's reason for having Harry wear glasses.
I've worn glasses nearly my whole life, I wish Ten had been around when I was a kid so I could have felt a bit better about my own "brainy specs" (which were sadly of the large '80's variety, as it was, well, the '80's).
I am a lady and I think Tennant inspired me to get this style of specs!
Unfortunately, I do not look as sexy as him in them 🙁
I have this little nittypicky thing that I do with shows. Ever since I found out that They Do That, I look and make sure that every time someone wears glasses in a scene that they actually have glass in the lenses. I'm happy to say that close up shots of David there is glass in! I'm not 100% about longer shots, but it's hard to tell when there's nothing reflecty.
This is opposed to Leonard on The Big Bang Theory, who I have spotted multiple times wearing frames with no lens.
I am pretty sure David Tennant actually needs glasses/contacts/something like that, so that may be why he was pushing for them too. Authentic glasses wearer and all that. <3
I do that too! I can't help doing it now! And if I can't tell quickly then it will take over the rest of the episode till I can!
<3!
Brainy specs! 😀 Snap.
i agree with this 100%
<img src="http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/BritishFreak411/Doctor%20Who%20Icons/dw_glasses.png" border="0" alt="The Doctor Pictures, Images and Photos"/>
<img src="http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac152/ginover/Motivators/motivator111.jpg" border="0" alt="Motivator Pictures, Images and Photos"/>
David Tennant wearing ANYTHING: A++++++++
I have a ridiculous crush on that man.
(And David Tennant wearing a kilt? Oh my. I stop breathing, it's that amazing.)
SHOWMEPICTURESHOWMEPICTURESSHOWMEPICTURES
I don't have any saved (This is clearly a failure on my part) but there are only a few anyways, most from the same two events: http://www.google.com/images?q=david+tennant+kilt
Ooooh, sexy. Actually I think I have seen that before, if there aren't that many photos.
Now, okay, I don't want to be– I mean, I don't have Google safe search on, but– well. There is a naked man in that picture set. o.O; I kind of looks… like it could be someone. … Is that who that is? Is that really on the internets? AND WHY DOES A NAKED MAN COME UP WHEN YOU SEARCH DAVID TENNANT KILT, GOOGLE?
(posting from my phone, which isn’t logged on to intense debate)
Um, wow, mine didn’t have naked anyone on it, but I have safe search on (I am kind of a prude) so I just got lots of kilts. Sorry about that!
And if it is Tennant you think you are seeing, it’s probably not him. I don’t think he does those kinds of photos. Scenes, yes. Photos, not so much.
Haha, okay. Well maybe I should turn it back on whenever I search David Tennant on Google next time. 😉
Although the photo is actually of a scene, which I guess is why I thought it might actually be him. The person has a big policeman hat on and is on a stage.
Anyway. Thanks for the kilt photos. Fun times!
That picture of a naked man on stage is absolutely David Tennant. jsyk
Ohcrapsrsly?
…
Well. I'll just… be in my bunk.
I believe it is him, from a play years back. I remember it being a hot (ahem) topic of conversation on the internets back when the series aired.
Well I only just got into this Doctor Who thing not 6-7 months ago. It's actually a really nice coincidence that this whole thing is going on here at Mark Watches, because I actually get to squee with fans when most fans did that long ago.
And so now I guess I get to discover that there's a nekkid photo of him online with a policeman hat on and well THERE HE IS.
It's definitely more fun when you find people to share it with!!
And thus we can safely posit that David Tennant wearing NOTHING: A++++++++ too.
What about David Tennant NOT wearing anything?
Didn't notice this had already been said. Still, it bears repeating! 🙂
DEFINITELY.
As far as I can remember, he puts on a pair in every single episode (though the two parters may have counted as one) this series, including the Christmas Special where, if you remember, he whipped them out to read a joke from a cracker and then to watch Harriet start getting her vote of 'no confidence')
I like this episode too, mainly because parallel worlds are always fun and we get some nice fleshing out of Mickey's character.
But, ugh, the conversion scenes! So gruesome, even though we don't really see anything. Well played, DW team.
I'm kind of unimpressed with the idea of the twisty-knifey-grindey thing. I know they can't show anything, but they could have made it more believable that something was going on in there, instead of just an image of a grindey-thing that in no way could have possibly been making people into robots.
<img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/m9ad77.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/30rwp4p.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/28wjck7.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
I love everyone posting these gifs. Had some shocking family news last night and these are all providing me with some needed smiles and laughter.
Awww, sorry to hear that. *hugs* Glad we could help, though, and here's some more!
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/Libertis/1184629464174.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket">
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/Libertis/jakerageeyes.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket">
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/Libertis/McCoywtf.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket">
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/Libertis/nedemerson.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket">
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/abp209.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/x10xtf.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/33nuw02.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/10pdhcp.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
So much right click save.
<img src="http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9163/timgunnhorrified.gif">
Oh poor Tim Gunn!
Haha, that last one is awesome!
Thank you! 😀 Here is another from the same show, this one is more of a "judging you" type gif that I rarely get to bust out.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/Libertis/o6jq8g.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket">
Holy shit that last one *saves*
And damn I'm sorry to hear that.
I do love gif partys for the amount of brilliant new gifs that always end up surfacing.
Thanks
<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/2v7wgv5.gif" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
For me, throughout the entire episode, I kept forgetting (I don't know how!) that Ricky was played by the same person! I was just like "tra lala, that guys playing Ricky isgood…lalala" haha!
I liked finding out more about Mickey, too, even though I did not enjoy the info dump from Rose. Bwhahaha, the way you talk about Rose makes me laugh. Yes, she does tend to get into a mess. I actually do feel sympathy for her in these episodes. Yes, her motivations aren't selfless but I can understand why she would be so distressed on seeing her parents falling apart. And then, of course, it hurts even more when she's rejected by Jackie. Wealth doesn't seem to have made much difference to Pete but it's really hardened Jackie, hasn't it? And yes, the moment where we find out Rose is a terrier is pretty hilarious.
I said before that overall I don't really care for this season, but hands down my favourite thing about it is MICKEY DEVELOPMENT. Finally, I totally thought he was getting the shit end of the stick last season and the writers were totally overthetop with how they wrote his negative traits.
Also his grandma rules, but I might just be sentimental because she reminds me of some of my friends mums and grandmas in high school.
Okay, now onto reading the comments.
Agreed, I love learning more about Mickey in this episode.
I think that's what I like about Mickey's gran as well. She reminds me of so many of my relatives. They will slag you like no one else can but it's all done out of love and affection and will never hear you say a bad word about yourself if it sounds like you might actually mean it.
You might know since you've been to the IMDb site, but Daleks and Cybermen are indeed voiced by the same man in the new series, Nicholas Briggs.
… which has already been said of course. So many comments.
*sigh*
http://disparue.org/gallery/dw2/205/images/risecy…
http://disparue.org/gallery/dw2/205/images/risecy…
http://disparue.org/gallery/dw2/205/images/risecy…
http://disparue.org/gallery/dw2/205/images/risecy…
'Direct Linking not allowed'
I'm really curious now.
Copypaste the links in a new tab. Totally worth the trouble.
Oh, thank you, didn't think of that. Definitely worth it.
They don't work 🙁 They were screencaps of a shirtless Noel and David looking adorable in his brainy specs.
Well hello there shirtless Mickey.
Yes, I agree. Why doesn't the Doctor exist in multiple universes? In this episode we are expecting to see a duplicate of EVERYONE. It is a surprise and a joke that Rose does not have a duplicate. So we should absolutely also be expecting to see a duplicate of the Doctor.
Can't- give- reasons…. bound by spoliers….
does the reason get shown by the next episode? If so would you mind if I hunted down a comment from you tomorrow and asked?
Ok, I haven't read every comment so I don't know if this has been discussed, so anyway: having a crush on Noel Clarke is the opposite of bizarre. BTW, there's a queue, unless you don't mind sharing.
And agreed, that interrogation was hot. I'm not that keen on Scowly Ricky, so you can keep that one.
I’m new to commenting here, but I have been following for a long time and, idk, after the comments on the last episode (and here apparently) I think I have to say this:
The Doctor Who fandom has an enormous amount of opinion myopia, and I can totally understand, it is amazing, wonderful, splendiferous etc. But what happened last year, when I first got into the fandom, is that it completely destroyed my liking and original opinion on many of the characters and etc.
And as a newbie, I didn’t realise how much it wasn’t “I don’t like X, because it was bad”, and that it was more “I don’t like X, because X is getting in the way of Y, and Y is totally awesome, so I’m not going to like X on principle”, SOMETHING THAT WAS HAPPENING EVERWHERE, FYI. It ruined a lot of the enjoyment that I had for the series, because it happened even in some of the smaller fandoms I was participating in.
So, because I like you Mark, I really want everyone to think carefully before they comment because, yeah, someone may not agree with the statement “X/Y is bad/awesome”, but that doesn’t make them the worst thing ever, and to maybe harness down some of that irrational, righteous anger. It’s okay. It’s an opinion, it won’t kill you, you don’t have to maul them just because they thought it.
They love Doctor Who. They can’t be that bad, y/y?
p.s. I did like this episode, and mickey/ricky was amazing. I started having a little crush on him too. O_o
Thank you for this comment. <3
This is a good comment and you should be proud!
It would be nice if people could stop with the overagressive fanwank.
IT IS OK TO DISAGREE.
AND IT IS OK THAT THEY DISAGREE WITH YOU.
Look, we all love Dr Who so much that we have very strong feeling about characters and plot lines! That's great! That's brilliant! fantastic even! You know what's really fun? Having intelligent, impassioned discussions of our differing viewpoints. As long as the disagreeing doesn't take the form of '[character] is HITLER and everyone who likes them is RACIST!!!!11!' I think we can deal with our differening viewpoints.
Besides: Passively registering disapproval without giving a reason for it, and without having the courage to stand up for what we think? The Dr would NOT be proud.
"Besides: Passively registering disapproval without giving a reason for it, and without having the courage to stand up for what we think? The Dr would NOT be proud."
Love. Love this. Love you. Yes. Just yes.
It appears to me as though there's very little "x is hitler" and quite a lot of intelligent, impassioned discussions going on, though.
Honestly, I don't think there's been that much fanwank in the past few days, especially when yesterday people were mostly discussing things from a feminist viewpoint. Yes, it got heated, but then, it's impassioned.
Basically, it's too easy to dismiss discussion AS fanwank, and I'd much rather have intelligent discussions with "fanwank" mixed in, as opposed to just gifs and squee and non-controversial posts.
So unless you specifically call certain posts out, can we avoid the term (fan)wank?
Yea, I'm in this boat. I don't see it. Which may mean I might be participating and I don't know it? I've been reading through lots of comments and discussions and enjoying it all.
Maybe what we're talking about is the thumbs up/thumbs down thing? Which… I barely pay attention to, and no one else should either. 😉
I can't upvote this enough!
Actually come to think of it, he won Specsavers Spectacle Wearer Of The Year before.
Eventually, Mark, you need to watch the Doctor Who Weakest Link. But not yet… cause it aired in 2007, and might be spoilery. Anyway, there are some hilarious flirty Noel Clarke moments, and your newfound crush made me think of that! 🙂
Not a huge Cybermen fan, they are always a bit too Dalek-like for me in their whole 'we are the superior race' thing and the similar voices/ catchphrases, so these eps have never been a favourite of mine. Pete is cool though.
On another note, I started watching Fringe! Watched 2 episodes and it already seems right up my street, Walter = Win. I like the fact that I've gone from watching Mark read Potter for the first time to being lead by his recommendations! I can see I'm going to have to be a bit careful about Fringe spoilers when reading through these comments until I catch up with it though
Key difference bewteen Daleks (POTW aside) and Cybermen: Daleks just kill you. Cybermen make you like them, which is worse.
Fellow glasses wearer here, and no, he cannot.
He is actually my real love. I am married to him *on the astral plane*
Like in Old Who I always saw it as a little more complex. It's not 'tech is evil', just 'blind acceptance of a certain thing, whether new or traditional is a REALLY bad idea. Also, if something is happening in your culture much quicker than it should be, someone should be keeping an eye out. Just saying.'
The headsets look like bluetooths too much for me to be able to dismiss my concern as simply being about blind acceptance of anything. I read it as specifically TECHNOLOGY being criticized, by using bluetooth headsets as the example. There's an upcoming episode that deals with human technology, and the possible danger of it, but I don't have a problem with that episode (not for this reason, at least) because I don't read it as being against that technology itself, but rather the way the specific characters are implementing it. Whereas this episode definitely comes across as patronizing in a way the other episode doesn't.
Also, if something is happening in your culture much quicker than it should be, someone should be keeping an eye out.
I don't understand this. "Quicker than it should be" is entirely subjective, and given how fast technology evolves, I don't see why it should be bad for people to adopt technology at the rate it's produced.
It's not Technology Is Bad, but I think it does where question technology could lead humanity. Bluetooth can connect you to the World Wide Web, download it to a computer and through a screen and earpods you get audio communication. But what about the next step? What if you could cut out the `middle man` and just download information from the Web directly into your brain. It's only a small step, conceptually. But it has huge implications. Since your brain controls your body, if someone else had direct access to your brain, you could be handing over that control.
The human brain in the cyber suit is like the sim card in your phone. Just pop it out of its current `casing` and stick in a new `upgraded` model.
How far would you go for the next upgrade, and how far is too far?
I think these are prefectly valid questions.
Oh and personally I love the Cybermen because I like robot voices, even though I can't look at them and not think of the Borg, likewise I look at the Daleks and wonder if that was where the inspiration came from for Krang. Basically I love any vastly superior alien technology that looks like it was made out of cardboard and tinfoil on earth in 1965. Me=simple. I love the Dalek voices just a tiny bit more though BECAUSE THEY ARE ALWAYS TALKING IN CAPS.
Technology isn't the evil here, it's blindly accepting everything… for the easy life, as the Doctor says…
The blog is being weird and delaying the post of comments, so I think you posted before being able to see the above comment, as it's very similar.
My response is that the headsets look too much like bluetooths, and so I feel the episode is criticizing specific tech. Basically, the imagery is too strong for me to dismiss this as simply being about "blind acceptance," but is rather specifically addressing aspects of our culture/society.
Oh dear, I has ALLLLLL teh smartz today (well yesterday?))
Honestly, Cybermen? Not my favorite villian. I'm just too busy trying not to crack up at them to be really scared of them, you know? I find their PURPOSE scary, but the cybermen themselves? Not so much.
Btw Mark, I'm totally with you: Noel Clarke is hot. You have excellent taste.
"That took ten years off my life."
I really have no idea what that could mean in the context of the Doctor. I actually think it's kind of a stupid, hokey line. But I like the episode overall, especially the Mickey back story.
I've been wondering about that line as well. The Doctor's potential lifespan isn't really measured in years, but rather in regenerations, right? How would ten years even matter in that context?
Agreed on the Mickey back story!
That confused me too. The Doctor is functionally immortal, he doesn't age. How does he take years off his life?
I always imagined he would age normally if he stayed in one regeneration for long enough. So when he got to what would appear to be 80, maybe, he might regenerate because he was dying of 'old age'. But now he has 'given away ten years of his life' I imagine he would regenerate from old age at 70 instead.
…
Maybe…
I don't know, he's said several times that he doesn't age. Which of course makes you wonder about some things; Time Lords aren't born adults. Do they reach adulthood and then stop aging at some point? If so, why was the First Doctor an old guy?
The number of regenerations he gets got retconned recently (or possibly not retconned, I heard of an in-universe explanation for it), so I don't know how these things are really meant to work.
Isn't the reason the First Doctor regenerates due to age? I'm guessing that's where most of his 900 years comes from, anyway– he runs through regenerations quickly. 😛
It's not really clear why the First Doctor regenerated, it definitely appeared to be due to age. He just sort of staggered into the TARDIS, keeled over and regenerated. Which makes it a bit confusing when Ten says he doesn't age.
This is what happens when you have several decades of canon to deal with.
I've always been bothered by those lines because I, too, am of the mind that if he stayed in one regeneration long enough, that regeneration would age. I want to believe that he's simplifying it and between aging very slowly in comparison to other races, and being able to regenerate into a younger form, it's essentially true. He wouldn't age and decay the way other lifeforms do. But I fully admit that is a stretch and the only other thing I can say is UHHHHHHHG, canon! *shakes fist*
Well, a `certain character` in S4 does tell him, "You look older."
I'd say it's not that the Doctor doesn't age, but more that the way he lives his life, he's far more likely to regenerate before it becomes an issue.
I did read somewhere that scientifically, the processes between aging to adulthood (maturing) and then aging are actually different. If we ever did find a way to "stop" aging or slow it, that would be what would happen- you'd become an adult and then slowly get older. So I'm sure that's probably what's behind the Doctor.
So far the number of regenerations rule hasn't been mentioned in the new series. From what I've heard, it was sort of a law or limit imposed by the Time Lords themselves, so possibly it's a non-issue if the Time Lords aren't around. We really don't know.
I've also heard that another earlier Doctor (7th?) claimed to be over 1000 years old, so it's entirely possible they either rewrote canon, or the Doctor is just lying. It's not like he doesn't lie about other things.
The number of regenerations was mentioned on the Sarah Jane Adventures. The Doctor turned up and, in answer to a question, basically said he can keep regenerating indefinitely. Previously, he had twelve regenerations and that was it.
I don't know if this came from the fandom or from the Powers That Be, but the explanation I heard for the change was that during the Time War, the regeneration "rules" were changed so that Time Lord soldiers could keep getting killed and keep coming back to fight a potentially infinite number of times. I don't know if that means they somehow changed their physiology or if they just changed the rules.
About his age, I just assume he's making it up. He either doesn't know how old he is and just likes the sound of "900", or he knows he broke 1000 some time ago and doesn't want to admit it.
Ah. I haven't seen SJA so I didn't know about that extra detail.I'm sure that, whatever the in-show reason, the writers have probably thrown out the regeneration limit. I'm sure '12 regenerations' originally sounded like a lot… and then then show went on for 40 years, almost certainly much longer than they expected. 😉 That's probably right, since the Doctor tends to lie or bend the truth quite a bit for his own convenience. I would completely believe that he's over 1000 years old and just doesn't want to admit it. Who wants to be over a millennium old?
I think you're right, but I'm not an expert on the Doctor and his regenerations. He does it to repair damage to his body, so perhaps the exertion of breathing power into it caused 10 years of wear on his body. What echinodermata says makes the most sense.
I've been trying to come up with whether or not I think Time Lords could life indefinitely.
This is my thought process:
Lifespan is commonly limited to things like general number of heartbeats – eg a mouse has a much faster heartbeat, but lives a lot fewer years, so the number of heartbeats is comparable between humans and mice – but then I have no idea what the two hearts would do. Then again, the heartbeat thing is just a noticed correlation, and not really a rule.
There's also the number of times a cell can divide – aging is commonly thought to be a deterioration of cells because they've reached a limit of division. But then certain cells can bypass this, and it's quite possible Time Lords could have figured out a way to genetically fix this.
So yeah, I'm thinking Time Lords would have to actually be killed by something – I don't really see why they should die of old age given their technology and regenerations and everything.
In sum, even from a biological perspective, I agree the line seems entirely useless. Although what did he even breathe into the TARDIS crystal, anyway? "Life essence?" Whatever, I'm sure I've thought about it way more than the writers did.
I'm going to have to disagree on your biology.
Lifespan has nothing to do with heartbeats. A hummingbird, with a heartbeat of up to 180bpm, can live between 3 and 10 years (in captivity). A shrew lives only 2, and a rat lives only 3. Many small birds live 10 years.
Lifespan is a balance between 1) your body taking the energy to repair mutations in your DNA/stop senescence or aging, 2) your body putting energy into reproduction. Technically speaking, "fitness" in an animal is only measured in how much it reproduces and more indirectly, how much its relatives reproduce. So the biological question is, how long are you going to live? Should you make lots of babies now or should you make lots of babies over the course of many years? Your optimum is to have high fitness.
A good example is rats vs bats. Rats live 3 years at most, like I said. Most don't make it past 1 year because of predation. So they pump out babies like it's no tomorrow and spend no time on repairing their DNA. If you have ever had a pet rat, you know that one of the most common causes of death is tumors. Their body just doesn't know how to last. Many bats are the same size as rats. They might have 1-2 pups a year, at most. They also don't have much in the way of natural predators. And they can live up to 20 years, or even possibly more.
So using biological theory, the Doctor should barely be at reproductive age, and maybe have a few children, MAYBE. 😉
When it comes to immortal cells, that usually happens in only prokaryotic and not eukaryotic cells. So maybe Timelord cells are prokaryotic?! But that would only apply if they don't age. LETS PUT SOME DAVID TENNANT UNDER A MICROSCOPE AND SEE. 😉
But Time Lords don't reproduce via natural means but by "looms" – I'm pretty sure some classic Who writer was scared of vaginas or something, but that's apparently the canon. So Time Lords don't really need to put biological resources into reproduction, and so their life-span doesn't really correlate if they have tech that can make babies for them.
Like I said, the heartbeats thing isn't a rule and just a correlation people have noticed. Yes, there's of course many exceptions, but it's biology – of course there's exceptions. Mostly, though, I just thought of this thing I knew people have said about heartbeats, but I thought it was funny how two hearts could complicate it.
The cell division limit is the closest we've come to understanding aging, but human stem cells and cancer cells can be immortal, so if cell division is how you're measuring age, then technology could feasibly come up with a fix.
So I still stand by them not really having "age."
Fuck it, we'll do what Star Wars did: Mitochondria! Time Lords get their coolness via Mitochondria! They're the powerhouses of the cell, doncha know?
(And I'll examine Tennant anytime, if ya know what I mean)
Looms? Oh well, that's cool! I didn't even know that at all. And I'm guessing it was just being scared of the idea of sex. 😉 Isn't this the age of Rob and Laura not even being able to sleep in the same bed? But we're saying here that this isn't their natural way of reproducing, but an alternative to natural? In that they still have a different sexual way of reproducing? Possibly?
AND YAY MITOCHONDRIA. I can't believe that textbooks are still using that phrase. They could come up with something a little better by now, couldn't they?
DW canon is more like "canon," so if you want Time Lords to reproduce sexually, then by all means. There's definitely "canon" allowing for them to be asexual, but that's not to say they can't do both.
But yeah, trying to explain alien biology can suck. I think we can sympathize with each other on that point.
Well I should say, having this knowledge now that they actually have an alternate way of nonsexually producing actually helps me understand the 'Doctor is asexual' debate much better. Because apparently Timelords ARE asexual, and not just by personality. And in any regeneration instance, the Doctor may in fact prefer that asexual way to any sexual way. I think it's interesting that that specific piece of "canon" (as you will) had yet to be brought up. I think it's pretty important.
Also, I sort of file Doctor Who canon under the same heading as Star Trek canon. It would be nice if they didn't change it up, but well, people didn't care as much in the 70's and so now they're faced with plot holes and problems that they can choose to forget or somehow explain away.
This piece of "canon" comes from the Virgin New Adventures novels, which makes it very debatable. Basically on Gallifrey there are lots of Houses and each House gets its own loom and a certain amount of people it can weave at a time. When one of the House dies (dies for good I mean), they're replaced with another. The Doctor was from the House of Lungbarrow and many of his Cousins appeared in the novel "Lungbarrow."
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Loom
Technically, it ISN'T canon, as it conflicts with many things in the series proper, but the great thing about Doctor Who is you can pick and choose your own canon. You'll find the idea of looms incorporated into many a fanfiction or form of alternate media.
"Technically, it ISN'T canon"
Well… http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Canon:
"[RTD] has been consistently careful to make it clear that he wants to make it possible for fans to consider the books canonical, or not, as they prefer; the same attitude has been taken by most of the current series writers."
"The BBC and the various production teams have never attempted to define an official canon, unlike with some other television shows"
"It is impossible for a show about a dimension-hopping time traveller to have a canon." – Steven Moffat
So since there's no official canon, nothing in the Whoniverse ISN'T canon.
But it is definitely true that more fans would consider the TV show to be more canonical than the novels. I just don't think it's good to call something NOT canon when clearly the showrunners wouldn't agree with that.
This, BTW, is one of the reasons I love DW so much – it's a gigantic sandbox and everyone's invited.
I suppose I shouldn't have worded it like that, but canon is a tricky business with the Whoniverse. You could fit looms into canon if you took a few liberties, but a lot of conflicts with things stated in the show. For example, in the books it's said that looms produce fully grown Gallifreyans, but in the show the Doctor once mentions specifically when he was a little boy and the eight-year-old Master looks like a child. However, you could handwave that by saying not all looms produce adult Time Lords. I'm just saying that the matter is really inconsistent.
"This, BTW, is one of the reasons I love DW so much – it's a gigantic sandbox and everyone's invited."
Precisely my view as well. Picking and choosing your personal canon from 47 years' worth of media is something you can't really do with any other franchise. There are some fans who have only seen the show, and others who have read the books and/or comics and listened to the audio plays.
In my personal canon, I like to ignore the Sixth Doctor's TV run and substitute Colin Baker's Big Finish plays instead. 😉
"a lot of conflicts with things stated in the show"
"The audience just hasn't seen the adventure when the Doctor goes back in time and changes that detail." – Steven Moffat
Inconsistency? Time-travel.
A Wizard (The Doctor) Did It!
Perhaps in other cases, time travel certainly, but he'd have to go back and change his own birth.
But I'll just concede to you right now, shall I? Because I agree, lots of things can be retconned or changed because Doctor Who is all about time travel and paradoxes. The tagline for Series 5 and 6 is "Time can be rewritten." 🙂
Yeah…I never bought the looms thing. I mean, really? Brave New World-style test tube reproduction is too boring for Time Lords or something? Aside from being really weird, what's the benefit?
Yet another reason to love Doctor Who, you can pick your own canon. I'm going with the non-looms theory, since that's just way too weird a mental image for me.
Wasn't the loom thing talked about only in the movie with the 8th Doctor? I thought it was something that was sort of dubious canon– sort of like how at one point the Doctor claimed to be "half-human" … but no one, not even the BBC, seems to think that's canon.
See a comment I made above, where basically THERE IS NO OFFICIAL DOCTOR WHO CANON – it simply doesn't exist. And if there's no official canon, then…there's no canon, given that's the point of the term (that it comes from the official word).
By all means, consider it "dubious canon," but "not even the BBC seems to think that's canon" – well, the BBC itself simply doesn't talk about Doctor Who canon, and RTD has made it clear that the novels shouldn't be ruled out as canon. And Moffat considers a DW canon to be impossible. So you really can't point to the showrunners to defend your "dubious canon" opinion.
EDIT: The looms thing comes from a novel, not the movie. Either way, They count the movie Doctor as the eighth Doctor, or Eccleston would have been Eight himself. So at least certain parts of the movie anyway, have been acknowledged as part of the current show's history.
I don't like science/technology is evil tropes, but I think it can work when you're cautioning against over-reliance on tech. They're not saying that we should all be luddites, but hey, maybe don't let it overwhelm your life. It's sort of heavy-handed here, but Doctor Who is a kid-friendly show, so it makes sense to be really direct about it.
I think that there are so many things out there about how the scientists ruin everything with their godless technocracy that mild examples don't bother me anymore.
"don't let it overwhelm your life"
The problem with this reading for me is that the only character this technology seems to "overwhelm" is Jackie, what with the diamonds and stations from foreign countries that she doesn't care about and what-have-you. Only Jackie has always been portrayed as somewhat shallow and is constantly the butt of jokes, so her character being "overwhelmed" doesn't read as most/all people being "overwhelmed" by the technology.
Basically, I don't think the headsets were problematic at all should all they have done was their on-the-box function and not "turn them into droids" function. So it really did seem like it was headsets themselves being criticized, and specifically a message to our society about the use of bluetooths and other "plugged in" tech.
And there's something about this episode that I can't put a finger on, but I get a patronizing tone from it when I don't necessarily see that patronization in other "some tech is evil" storylines from even other DW episodes.
I was thinking more of the scene where they're walking down the street and everyone stops to listen to the update. Yeah, it's a hyperbolic situation, but tell me you haven't seen people walk into things or trip while texting, answer their phones in a restaurant, or forget that they're driving because they're in the middle of a conversation. I think it's more a criticism of people than the technology, and the episode is parodying people who are more absorbed in their phones and other toys than the world around them.
I get what you mean about a patronizing tone in the episode; maybe when the Doctor chides Rose about her phone? It's nothing outright, but when the undercurrent of the episode is "don't let technology rule your life," and it's really exaggerated, it seems like they're saying that people don't have the sense to realize when they're too reliant on technology.
It's irksome, but it doesn't reach that point of "what hell hath science wrought?!" that sends me over the edge.
Okay, you've made really good points, and I easily concede that as far as tech/science is evil stories go, this is pretty tame.
One thing though: "but tell me you haven't seen people walk into things or trip while texting"
I'm the type that often reads (books! made of paper!) while walking, and may forget to watch where I'm going, so being absorbed in "tech" and forgetting the world around them isn't particularly new – it feels a little like "that generation younger than mine with their new technology and customs that I'm not ready to adopt! In my day…"
I mean, human civilization is just a long history of let's go in that cave/in this tent I've made/in this more durable shack/etc. so it's just, humans like getting away from the world around them! We always have.
So even though you've maybe helped assuage my annoyance at the plot of this episode, it still makes me roll my eyes.
You made really good points, too! I've come to realize that it's a pretty clichéd topic, but I still can't hate this episode because of all the golden Mickey moments. As someone who gets lost in books all of the time, I totally that no one is exempt from getting wrapped up in something. Technology is just low-hanging fruit, so the writers should be criticized for taking that tack.
P.S. I love all of the science talk on page 3.
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5041/5350379469_2aa96e6755.jpg" width="500" height="299" alt="Cyberman" />
OH EM GEE WHAT IS IT?????? IT IS ALL BACKLIT SO I CAN'T TELL!
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5123/5350380311_724f425a21.jpg" width="500" height="299" alt="Cyberman" />
OH SNAP, IT IS A CYBERMAN, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE.
<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3353/3251797635_784f66b1ea.jpg" width="450" height="500" alt="The Doctor" />
IT'S OKAY THOUGH, THE DOCTOR WILL SAVE US!
(This one is an old picture because tonight I couldn't get a good shot. Bah humbug)
AWESOME! I want a Doctor by my computer waiting to save me.
Oh, now you've come to my favorite (i.e. most frightening) monsters. Nothing kept me up at night, or hiding behind the couch like the cibermen did. I love them, I hate them, I'm scared absolutely SHITLESS of them.
They're horrifying, they're insane, they're worse then the Dalek's. Dalek's have a plunger and look like pepper pots. Cibermen…. OH jesus… Cibermen…. *shudder*
And you also touched on something else.
I. Dislike. Rose. Intensely.
You're right. She's selfish. I also thought her whiney and bitchy. She can't stop meddling, and every time she does she fucks it up even more. She makes me bonkers.
Mickey is better, and I love Mickey, Rose doesn't deserve to have him following her about like a lost puppy dog.
Where did the 'hiding behind the couch' thing come from? Is that from the old Who days or is that a new thing that someone else made up?
'Hiding behind the sofa' came from Doctor Who in the 70s. It is very much a British colloquialism usually used in reference to Doctor Who. There's even a wikipedia page for it! XD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind_the_sofa
I'll admit, I hadn't heard the term until the NuWho (as someone so described it below). I have a good friend who lives in Wales, and she was the one who originally told me about it.
Of course, it just gets silly… 🙂 I have one of those "motivational posters" of the Doctor hiding behind the couch with the "In soviet russia" meme, but I can't figure out how to post pictures in my comments like others have… darn it.
Also GODDAMN IT, I HATE WHEN I AM WATCHING A TWO-PARTER AND HAVE NO IDEA.
No, you LOVE IT. Just admit it.
It’s just like my love for time travel: once you include parallel worlds in a story line, you’ve got my attention. (Thank you, Fringe.)
We are as one!
Ricky. Wait a second, isn’t that the exact name that the Ninth Doctor INSISTED Mickey actually was?
Whooooa.
The Cybermen’s cry of DELETE reminds me too much of EXTERMINATE. Actually, it even sounds a lot like that voice too.
Yeah, they're very similar. And yet I think they're the two most popular and enduring villains in the series. You'd think the world could only handle one such catchphrase, but two SCREAMING VERBS are twice as nice!
I love the biker in the background of that first gif. I'm sure he was like, "Laaaadidaa, goin' on ride to the st– WHAT THE HELL."
I too, dislike Rose. But people knew that. I have so much love for Mickey in these two episodes though. And for Rose's Dad. He's got one of those faces that you just trust.
"She can’t seem to resist meddling, even with the best of intentions"
I think most (if not all) of Rose's interaction with people from diffferent planets/times/dimensions has been defined by her first real interaction with an alien (aside from the Doctor, of course): the blue-faced plumber girl in "The End of the World".
Ever since Rose's conversation with her, when she had to actually give her permission to speak, she seems to have treated everyone alien to her in the same way. Look at how she treated Gwyneth, just one episode later, and the imprisoned Dalek. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, that she wants to help, but she doesn't seem to stop first and make sure that they NEED help, or that helping them would be the right thing to do.
Anyway, just an observation. I like Rose, but I'm not sure what to make of this facet of her character. Maybe it's just youth and inexperience?
That's a really good point and one that never occurred to me. That really is something of a recurring thing for Rose. She's so eager to help people and fix things that she doesn't take the time to wonder if maybe doing that will just make things worse, as is often the case for her.
I'm a big Rose fan, but I always love noticing new aspects of a character, good or bad, because they make them that much more interesting to me. So thanks a lot for pointing that out!
Haha, you're welcome! Really the idea just popped into my head when I read that sentence of Mark's, and it probably helped that I started watching with "The Empty Child" and wound up going back and watching earlier episodes after I'd finished season one.
Mickey is just wonderful in this storyline, and I was so glad to finally get some backstory on him. Rose…not so much. Has she learned nothing? Ever? What the hell was "Father's Day" even for? Where is the maturation and increased sense of responsibility of last season? Gone, so that she can be a giggly-until-she's-jealous appendage to the Doctor. She's been a TARDIS passenger for at least a year now, making her about as close as you can get to a trained time traveler. She's an adult, and about the same age as the average U.S. soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan. There's a point where you can't excuse everything she does as the product of youth and inexperience, you know?
Camille Coduri and Noel Clarke save this episode from awfulness, as they often do, and along with amusing touches like Rose the Dog bring it up to the "eh, it's okay" zone for me rather than the Zone of Loathing.
While I like the new Cybermen design, they do seem a bit TOO robotic. They're not robots, they're cyborgs – I wish they had made them at least a bit organic, like the Classic Who Cybermen.
Mark, I think you'll find that the Who fandom generally differentiates between the classic Cybermen, who are an alien race (originating on the planet Mondas) who, through artificial body parts replacements, slowly degenerated into Cybermen; and the NuWho "Cybusmen" (from "Cybus Industries), who were created that way from the start. Many of us still wish that the original Cybermen will make an appearance in NuWho eventually.
Tardisodes are back to being pointless again for this episode. (If indeed they ever *stopped* being pointless!)
A mission briefing from Gemini calls all Preacher agents into action. The briefing describes a link between thousands of people going missing and the latest "upgrade" from John Lumic, head of Cybus Industries – the Cybermen. When the briefing ends Ricky Smith closes the laptop and drives away in a van, just as an advertisement for Cybus Industries is heard on the radio, announcing: "Coming soon, the ultimate upgrade"…
I shouldn't admit this but I was kinda curious as to the level of GIF Storm so was scanning this thread quickly at work… and in amongst all the pretty moving images I STILL manage to notice a 50×50 pixel shot of Karen Gillan. On the upside at least I have taste
There is a deleted/missing scene from either this or the next episode that you really REALLY need to see. I can't ruddy find it though!
"How is that possible when the Doctor only exists in one world and essentially caused its creation?"
I wondered this, too! And I came up with three ideas:
1) The parallel universe is a spin off of some point in history affected by the Doctor, so while he is not in it, he is part of it's 'consciousness' (for lack of a better word), and anything involving him in OUR universe would be matched in this one
2) The history of this parallel universe shifted based up on their arrival, to accomodate their combined history and experiences – creating the existence of both Rose's family, Mickey's 'clone', and the Doctor's history.
2) Something to do with his Time Lord nature, and the fact that he can travel in different times and dimensions (and apparently universes) means that all universes are intricately connected with his history.
/edit/ Oh, and also? I've had a crush on Noel Clarke since day1, but his character growth fueled it.
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